Top of the Class Podcast Transcript Library

#6 College Tips - The Future of US Sport Scholarships with Harvard Graduate, Bryan Moore

🗓 MAR 10, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Tips. In today's episode, Harvard graduate and Crimson Education strategist Bryan Moore, talks about us sports scholarships, we chat about the impact of COVID-19 on college sports, what prospective student athletes can do to improve their candidacy, and how academic performance can be more important than many students need. Let's chat with Bryan Moore. Hi, Bryan. Welcome to College Tips. It's fantastic to have you on today. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Bryan Moore 00:46 Yeah. Great to see you, Alex. So I went to Harvard and played on the lacrosse team. And while I was there, I was studying economics and psychology. So excited to talk a little bit about sports today. Podcast Host 00:59 Yeah, absolutely. And since then, you've been doing a fair bit of stuff at crimson. What's your current role at Crimson? Bryan Moore 01:04 Yeah, so I am a senior strategist and Strategy Team Lead. So I manage a team of traders that work with a lot of students, particularly based in China. Podcast Host 01:14 Fantastic, and you even lived a little while there. And now you're based in the US again, and you've survived COVID, which is great to say. And we can talk about sports, because I know that some sports have not survived COVID, what has been the state of play or not play as the case may be for sports scholarships and sports in general? In the US post COVID. Bryan Moore 01:37 Yeah, it has been pretty chaotic for a lot of student athletes and schools as well, a lot of teams getting canceled or having their team shut down. Obviously, you know, the debates about whether or not it's safe to play has been both an issue within schools and also in sort of the political sphere. You know, we've seen, you know, sports, like the NFL successfully have a full season, but you know, with a lot of risk to the to the player. So it's been challenging on a lot of dimensions so far in the past year. Podcast Host 02:04 And is there any sports in particular, or any schools in particular, whether it be the East Coast, West Coast, north south of the US that have been more affected than others? Bryan Moore 02:15 Yeah, so since COVID, obviously affected all parts of the US, I don't think there was a region that avoided anything. But we've saw, we saw mostly, you know, teams struggle to have seasons, and a lot of the sports that don't generate much or any revenue for school. So sports like tennis, golf, some soccer teams, and cross country and track have been particularly hit. But it has affected a lot of teams. And depending on the leagues that schools are playing, and we've seen some leagues choose to have seasons, and others choose to not do that. So it's been very fragmented throughout the last year. Podcast Host 02:51 Does it affect students who are already at college in terms of like their future at the at the college? Or they because they've got in for previous years or whatever? Like they're set no matter what? or could they potentially have their scholarship funding cut, because their team has been cut? Bryan Moore 03:08 Absolutely. So if your team is cut, or if you are cut from the team, in normal circumstances, you can lose your scholarship, if you if you're lucky enough to have one. So that is that that's definitely been a big source of concern for a lot of student athletes over this past year. Podcast Host 03:24 So what was the prospects of student athletes during this admission round? Was it notably different in terms of like, harder to get into a lot of places, but it was more competitive? Bryan Moore 03:36 I think we didn't necessarily see a ton of change in how competitive it was. Mostly because of how much uncertainty there was, throughout this whole last year, people didn't know what to expect. So most schools and most coaches sort of approached the process in a similar way. And then, but once we got to the actual application process and final decisions, it was it was definitely quite challenging for for a lot of students. You know, I had a student who was interested in going to a school and they cut that team, he was a rower from Australia. And so that was, you know, pretty disruptive. But, you know, I also had some success as well, with some of my athletes pursuing even the same sport even within rowing. You know, we saw some success. So I think the uncertainty was the was the hardest part for both for schools for players and for coaches over the past year. Podcast Host 04:24 And is there any sport that is like, above the cuts, I guess, you said, your revenue generating ones made basketball and football, they're like safe no matter what pretty much, is that correct? Bryan Moore 04:36 Yeah, it's interesting, you know, definitely they have been spared. And they've been the sports that have had the most games I think across you know, all divisions and all different conferences that have basketball and football. What's particularly interesting is that, you know, within American football in particular, a lot of these teams lose money. So even though they may generate revenue, they're considered a revenue sport. They still lose money for the school. And what I, what I find interesting about that is just the level to which these schools are feeling the need to invest in a robust athletic department to attract students to come, even non athletes to come to the school to have a more exciting or interesting campus atmosphere. So the effects of how sports teams can really change the whole environment for a school, it's clear that sports aren't going anywhere, even sports that may lose money, which is, I think, interesting thinking in the long term. Podcast Host 05:30 I've heard though, that Dartmouth is a rather unusual case, what exactly happened to Dartmouth to the sporting teams? Bryan Moore 05:37 So a quick story is that the school had decided that they were going to cut several teams using the excuse that because of COVID, there were budget shortfalls and that they needed to manage that budget. For a school like Dartmouth, you know, budget considerations usually aren't a problem. There's plenty of endowment, they can always find donors to pay for sports teams. So in the very beginning, you know, that wasn't, didn't seem to be the case, or the thing, the main decision that was driving and over time, it began to come out that there's been a lot of pressure, particularly at the most academic schools, places like Dartmouth to find a new center for the balance between academics and sports at schools. And so I think that a number of people used COVID, as an opportunity to rebalance that equation in the favor of the academics and the voices of academics at Dartmouth. And so when the shuffles sort of played out, we've seen those teams get reinstated, which has been very disruptive, that disruption has been, I think, epitomizes this past year in terms of the level of uncertainty and how decisions can be made, but then quickly turned around. But hopefully things will settle down there and get back to normal soon. Podcast Host 06:48 Right. Right. Okay, fair enough. And also, I want to know about the divisions and how they were affected, whether you know, your div one schools, were still very committed to going with the sporting teams and whatnot. But you div three, etc, perhaps, as you said, with the case of Dartmouth kind of saw that balance between academics and sport and was like this is a chance to kind of push things more to the academic side of things. So is there any difference in the divisions for universities and how they've been kind of coping with this and changing the arrangement of the sport? Bryan Moore 07:19 Sure, so one of the key differences between division one, Division Two and Division Three is that division one and two have scholarships or can offer scholarships, if they choose to do so, whereas Division Three is not able to do so. So that changes the budget pretty considerably for the different schools, what we've seen generally is essentially within division three schools a pause, so we're not going to make any decisions, we're not going to hire new coaches, we're not going to make too many new commitments to new athletes. And at the same time, we saw quite a lot of students taking gap years, so taking time away from school, to either work or just not study during an online learning environment. And so I think we sort of saw a freeze on most activity within division three. And so as COVID is lifted, you know, things will start to heat up. And so I think that that pause has not necessarily been reflected in other sports in another divisions where things are a bit more competitive, and the focus on winning is, is a lot higher. So a division three school can generally get away in most cases with skipping a recruitment class, or not bringing in the top athletic talent, because, you know, that's just not their number one priority. Whereas, you know, I think that within certain within money sports, and within most of division one, I think there's still been the continued pressure to find the athletes to bring into the school. But that still is been full of uncertainty this whole this whole time. And I think what we'll see is rosters that are pretty full, and perhaps over the next couple of years, you know, some cut back in terms of the number of scholarships available for certain sports in particular, as schools try to manage their budgets and, and manage the size of the team since that there are caps on those. Podcast Host 09:10 Yeah, I was going to ask the kind of crystal ball question, what do you see happening in the future? And, as I guess, COVID restrictions start to slowly lift across the US whether teams would ever get back to that full kind of like, what's crazy college campus type of vibe that, you know, when over here in Australia, when I look at the US and colleges, I think like sport crazy for a lot of them, which is, which is awesome. But do you think we'll ever get back to that kind of level? Bryan Moore 09:37 You know, it's hard to even imagine, you know, getting a crowd of 1000s of people and screaming very loudly, you know, right now, but I do think that, you know, in the long term, we're going to get back to some sense of normalcy, and we'll have pretty close to what we've experienced in the past. I think in terms of the long term changes, I don't think things will stay the same, but I think Those issues are more around collective bargaining energy that's existed in past years anti trust considerations against the NCAA, some of the rules have been changes around amateurism that happened in the last year in allowing players to actually make money off of their name. I think some of those changes are likely to accelerate that we've seen in you know, in other areas of other industries and other parts of the world where COVID is sort of accelerated movement that we've seen, I think those things are likely to happen. And so that may have some changes to how sports exists in the United States. But I don't think that we'll be missing out on you know, the the rowdy games that that we've all come to love. Podcast Host 10:39 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm also interested in the impacts of the LSAT, the dropping of required exams, essentially, for students across the board. Is that still applying to athletes? Do they not have to sit the SAT anymore as well? Bryan Moore 10:54 Yeah, so that was actually quite interesting. We did see, you know, a lot of requirements be lifted for for a lot of schools across the US. Of course, there were some exceptions to that. And we are expecting that this year, we will continue to see some version of reduced requirements for testing. What was interesting, though, was schools that particularly care a lot about academic so schools within the Ivy's in particular, we did see requirements around testing, despite the fact that you didn't have an admissions requirement to to have an SAE score, for example, in order to be recruitable athlete you did. So in actually some cases, it was pretty much the same, and that they expected a lot of athletes to have already taken those tests. And that makes some sense, because within the Ivy's, you have to beat certain academic requirements in order to be a recruitable athlete. And the department as a whole needs to have on a relative basis compared to the other students in the school have to be within a certain band. And so in order to meet those Ivy League requirements, they did keep testing. So we'll see, I think how they're able to deal with, I think, a broad momentum towards fewer testing requirements. But I would expect to see that persist in the short and probably in the medium term as well. Podcast Host 12:12 Right? So basically, across the board, no matter which University you're applying to, if you're an athlete, you still have to sit some form of SAT, is that correct? Bryan Moore 12:20 I would say yes, I think that there will be certain there will certainly be exceptions to that. But but it helps to expand your opportunities, if you're able to get a really good test score, something that, you know, sticks out, that's definitely an advantage. In addition to that sports scholarships make up, you know, obviously, that's the thing that gets all the attention. But many athletes get a considerable amount of their your scholarship money actually based on their academic scholarship. So you can have both an athletic and an academic scholarship. In many cases, the academic scholarships actually worth more than your athletic scholarship. So having really strong test scores, having really strong grades in your school, these will be things that will make you both more recruitable for all schools, and will also give you the opportunity to have more money is one more thing on on having access to that academic money is that makes you much more attractive to coaches, even for schools that are not in a top 50. You know, US News and World Report rankings. The reason for this is, it's much easier for coaches to get access to that academic money, because that's not coming out of a preset amount of cash that they have available to them. Right. So you know, if you're able to get access to some of that academic money, that can free up additional sports specific money that the coach can then give to somebody else. So makes you a very attractive recruit if you're able to bring both the sport and the academic side? Podcast Host 13:44 Yeah, well, I was going to ask in the situation of say, like a year 10 student here in Australia, like 1516 years old, who is a gifted athlete at say, a couple of different sports, there was always one of those kids in any school, right? You know, like those man child's that kind of developed early and whatnot. I mean, I got to 167 centimeters and stuff growing for people in the US that's basically not very tall. And so for the students in that situation, who are saying, yep, you know, a US college, I want that to be my future. How could they strengthen their candidacy over the final years of their high school? Should they be focusing more on the academics? Should they be focusing more on a particular sport that is perhaps recruitable at a higher percentage rate? Like? Should they focus on other extracurriculars that are related to their sport, but might be more community focused, for instance, like what can athletes in that kind of 15 to 16 age bracket, who haven't yet got a letter from a university? Because I know some universities do reach out quite early these days, but who haven't heard from university yet? What could they be doing to kind of tailor their application in those last couple of years ago? Bryan Moore 14:53 Sure. So I think to generalize things first and then and then I guess we can talk in the specifics, but No, I think the first thing to understand or to ask yourself, if you're a student, or something that I might ask you, if I were to talk to you as a student, is, what is it really that you're looking for? For me when I was in high school, I had this vision for having this even split between academics and athletics. And I wanted to really maximize both of those things at the same time. And so that gave me a very clear sense and gave me some specific universities to target, you know, my first list of schools that I was interested in, you know, it was like, 35 schools long. So I had a very clear sense of exactly what I was looking to do in 35, schools is quite a bit, but it gave me some place to start. So I think asking yourself, you know, what are those priorities for you, since those will be different, some students really care about the athletic experience, and that's the only reason that they want to go, maybe they want to go pro in their sport, or something like that. Other students, you know, they want to leverage their athletic talent to get into a really good school, that's quite different. Some students are a bit more in between. So understanding that question, I think is, is quite important. And then you can essentially apply that same logic to other areas of your life. You know, while even though I was an athlete and went the recruitment route myself, you know, there were plenty of other things that I was very heavily involved in, a lot of the things that I loved, the most were sport related, I was coaching, I was mentoring and doing a variety of different things within my sport. But you know, I had access to that I had the right network of people around me to get access to those kinds of opportunities to involve myself different ways. So I'd be thinking about opportunities like that. So you know, we shouldn't be thinking, Okay, well, the only thing I need to do is play my sport, you know, we do need to have some breadth and some variety, an easy place to start is, who are the people that I know? What are the other opportunities within my sport, that aren't necessarily playing, that I could get involved in? And that can start to open up new opportunities and new interests of yours as well. Podcast Host 16:59 Right, fantastic. And then, of course, the academic side of things like you should still kind of study for that SAT, right? Bryan Moore 17:05 Absolutely. There's really nothing better for coaches than to know right off the bat, that they're not going to have any challenge with admissions with you and your candidacy. If you can take that off their mind and have them feel very confident that you are going to be a really good fit for them, then that's a huge sigh of relief that they can feel doesn't really matter what level you're targeting. If you're targeting the very most academic schools, it's just as important to give coaches that comfort that you will be able to handle the academics of whatever school you're targeting. Otherwise, they're not going to waste waste their time. There's too many other great hardworking athletes out there that want that spot, too. And so they need to prioritize. And if you've got the academics, it makes it that much easier on them. Podcast Host 17:46 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm interested also, in your role a little bit more specifically, in terms of helping prospective student athletes, what kind of problems or pain points are you typically solving throughout the recruitment process, and even you know, slightly before that, for students who are aiming to go to the US? Bryan Moore 18:03 Sure. So I guess I've seen a variety of different cases from students who, you know, have just picked up a new sport and are just beginning to realize that they really love it. And deciding through that whole process that they do want to go for, go to be recruited. One of my students this past year was that case, he became a rower, had never done that before. And just this past year, was admitted into Columbia, which was an amazing result for him, and so was able to, you know, hit all of his his goals for both his burgeoning love of his sport and also his academic passions. So I think, you know, I've seen those kinds of cases. And I've seen students who are very late in the process, who don't understand how to navigate it, but you know, that they want to, you know, that they have this goal of playing sports at a higher level. So I think it really, there's, there's quite a lot of variety. Generally speaking, a lot of my students have been based outside of the United States. So the challenges that they tend to face are having to do with you know, the physical distance, the fact that a lot of coaches aren't able to watch them in person play. That's that's a big challenge. And then I think just the the communication and with how I communicate, and when do I communicate, I think are big challenges for students. It can be really intimidating talking to these people who you perhaps idolize or, or want to have them respect you and think that you are valuable to them. That can be pretty challenging, regardless of whether you're in the States or abroad. I think navigating those those uncertainties and identifying what schools I should be targeting in my recruitment process those I guess the big questions that I tend to see a lot. Podcast Host 19:40 Yeah, because it is really weird for student athletes, I guess because they are the as I understand it, the only people through the college admissions process who pretty much directly communicating with the gatekeeper on the other side, right that if they're in communication with the coach, and the coach is either going to give them a yay or nay like that can be the gate. able to then get into college and even to get a scholarship or not. Whereas the majority of students are doing majority of their communication through their personal statement or their essay. That must be a very, very delicate process when you are picking when and what to say to any number of coaches. And I know that I think I heard that Tessa, who's one of the other sports strategists at crimson, she said, like, never tell someone, like do a coach, because it just shows that you've probably templated an email and you're spamming it out to a whole lot of people if you're not personalizing it. Is it that kind of nitpicky, generally speaking? Bryan Moore 20:34 Absolutely. The coach that I eventually played for his last name was logik. And so that was always a really tough one to try to spell. And I had to double check it three or four times, because that was that was always scary to send those emails. But yeah, absolutely. You know, particularly when you're, you know, let's say, your 10th grade dine, you know, students, you've never really sent emails or serious emails before to people, you know, that can be pretty intimidating. And so knowing whether I'm saying the right thing, if I'm saying enough, if I'm saying too much, I think that's always a concern. Generally speaking, most of my students don't say enough. And so you know, we have to encourage them to communicate more proactively, and communicate more than just, you know, sports related updates, as coaches want to see whole people, people that will bring, you know, a lot of different dimensions to the team on a both an athletic and also a personality basis, having a interesting group of teammates is a recruiting tool for coaches. So you know, if you can have more interesting, more thoughtful, more, better athletes on your team that's gonna make you a more attractive for future students to come to as well. So being the full picture of the full student in this process is, is important. And finding ways to communicate that whether it's via zoom or you know, via email can be pretty challenging. Podcast Host 21:51 And I also have the question of when students should start this process, because I know that that's often bandied around, and parents are like, my child is only like, 1415. They love their sport, but we're not quite sure whether they're going to continue with it in the next couple of years as academics start ramping up at school. What are your general views on like the age to start thinking about or not just thinking about but possibly taking action into the college recruitment process? Bryan Moore 22:17 Sure. So I grew up around a lot of people who were thinking about this, my high school was known for having a lot of student athletes going to phenomenal schools, you know, I have friends who are in the NFL. So pretty, pretty strong school, and a lot of people around me wanted to go through this process. So I was lucky in the sense that I had, I had that awareness around me. And I think that that's probably what's lacking most or why people start too late, is that they lack the awareness of what the process might look like. And so the people around them aren't thinking about it aren't talking about it, they therefore think Well, okay, I guess I don't have to think about it either. So I would definitely say that it tends to be the case that people start too late. Obviously, you know, there's definitely opportunities to start too early, right? When you're, you know, still in elementary school, that's too early to be, you know, focusing on this. But now, once you, I think, are taking ownership of your own athletic development, you know, you're the one that's you know, going to the gym, you're getting the extra reps in practice, you're the one who really wants that. And you've decided that you're going to put that level of effort in, I think, at that point, you can be thinking about college for me what that Mark was around eighth grade or a year nine. So that's when I realized, and that's actually when I made my first school list was around that time to to know that I had some goals, and I wanted to start working towards them from there, then it's just surrounding yourself with great people, great coaches, and a plan to eventually get seen, but that stuff takes time. So it's good to start early, I think certainly earlier than most people think. Podcast Host 23:48 Yeah, exactly. And I think for parents as well, like it's a, it's a bit of a challenge, because that the you Well, I don't want to burden my child with more pressure. But really, like if you leave it too late, that's when the pressure really starts kicking in. Like, if you're going to have any kind of chance of doing this, you need to kind of spread that pressure over as many years as possible. And as you said, you know, put that plan in place as early as possible. Is there any final advice that you would give to students and or parents who are prospective student athletes? Who are, you know, perhaps kind of thinking, Oh, you know, is the US ever going to be the same for college sports, these kinds of things? What advice would you give them as they move forward to next couple of years and hopefully aiming for that college recruitment? Bryan Moore 24:29 Sure. So I think I think in over the last year with with COVID, I've heard both from athletes and non athletes, this sort of sense that I can't do anything or there's nothing I can do about the fact that I can't go outside or there are opportunities that otherwise were there for me. I think that that's obviously both, you know, it's both true and in some ways, but it also is, I think, it also opens up the opportunity to be that person who solves that problem and to be the person that you know, is able to find a creative way to To pursue whatever their goals are, whether that's athletic or otherwise. And so thinking about getting creative about solving, you know, that challenge, whatever it is for you that, that you're sort of most frustrated by or that you feel like that you can't solve, that's the one that, that you should focus on trying to address in your life, because that's going to be the one that is going to give you the most bang for your buck in terms of that effort that you'll put in. So, you know, if you if you are an athlete listening to this, and that means that, you know, all of those traits that you're learning in practice, you know, how to be a leader, you know, how to persevere through, you know, pain are tough challenges, you know, apply those skills or, you know, in other areas, right, if there's some initiative going on at your school that that you're interested in, but you know, otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to take part in because that's what you normally have practice, now's the time to take advantage of those kinds of opportunities. And so you know, if you can lean forward through this, as difficult as it is, you know, obviously, it is very challenging. But if you can find a way to push through that you're going to be much further along than the most of your peers will be. And you'll build that lead and be in a great position to take advantage of whatever goals are in front of you, whether that's the admissions process or some other challenge that you want to tackle. Podcast Host 26:17 Perfect. Well, Bryan, it's been awesome chatting all about sports, I always learn a thing or two chatting with our lovely strategists from all around the world. And you are no exception to that rule for students or parents who will listen to this, there will be a link in the show notes if you'd like to work with someone like Bryan, on an application to the US or the UK or wherever you have in mind. But obviously, if you're aiming for sports, you're probably better off aim for the US. But Bryan, it's been awesome chatting and enjoy the rest of your day there in the US. Bryan Moore 26:44 Great to see you Alex. Thanks for having me on. Podcast Host 26:46 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#37 Cryptos, Gamestop and Getting a Finance Internship in Year 10

🗓 MAR 6, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:04 I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with 15 year old Dubai student, Aryaansh. Aryaansh has just recently completed a three month internship at one of the world's biggest banks, JP Morgan. We chat about how we got the internship, his views on Gamestop and cryptocurrencies, and what students can do in high school to get a head start on a career in finance. Let's chat with Aryaansh. Hi Aryaansh, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it is awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Aryaansh 00:51 Good afternoon, Alex. Thanks for having me on. So I'm 15 years old, and I am a Year 10 student in Dubai. And basically, you know, for the last year or so I've been building my entire life around finance and entrepreneurship. And basically, it's using, you know, the intersection of these two worlds to explore myself a little more. And I've been working on a bunch of side projects that not only benefit me, but benefit those around me. And I think it's really awesome, you know that I can create things that have a real world impact on people close to me. Podcast Host 01:21 Perfect. Well, just to give people a bit of context here, I actually connected with you on LinkedIn. And I played a little bit of a game with my oldest brother. And it was guest the age of the person who is posting this content. And it was one of your posts regarding financial Bitcoin, whatever it is, like you do some really impressive posts on LinkedIn. And my brother had a rate of it. And he was like, oh, Jason, pretty good analysis here. I'm going to get this person's like late 20s, early 30s. I'm like, 'he's 15!'. And my brother was like, 'Oh, my God, that's crazy'. And then, you know, setting up the interview, I said, oh, what's your email? And your email Is that one finance nerd, right? So when you say you're basing your life around finance and entrepreneurship, you really do mean it. Why finance and entrepreneurship, what really drew you to getting so involved in the world of finance? Aryaansh 02:14 It was practically a stroke of luck. So two years back, you know, we had an email pop up in our school email inbox, and it was regarding the stock market challenge. And you know, at that time, I knew nothing about the stock market, I just knew was reserved for rich people. So I decided to sign up. And we were given $100,000, of initial capital to invest as we clicked. And, you know, I was like, Oh, my God, $100,000. That's a lot of money. So I just had to play around a little bit, you know, investing in names I knew. And you know, this was all virtual. So it gave me a good flavor of the markets. And then, yeah, I think he was really the adrenaline that you see, whenever the stock tickers jump up or down, or, you know, the fact that you can do your own analysis on the market. And that can actually affect how well you do. I think that's what really drew me to it. And then I realized, wait a minute, this finance thing seems kind of fun. So I contacted one of my family members, who's a fund manager at fidelity. And he basically set me up with a bunch of books to read. So one thing really about me is that I love to learn, as in, you know, read a book article podcast, I love to take in information, whenever I'm not doing something. So you know, it gave me a bunch of books to kind of keep me busy. And you know, once I read them, I kind of got really more intrigued into, you know, not only stock market, but how there is a certain code to making money, and there's a certain code to how the world works. And it all revolves around this concept of money. And it's just like, how you manage it, and how the world manages it. And I think that really intrigues me towards, you know, something to do with economics and finance as a career. Podcast Host 03:50 In terms of the books that you were recommended, what kind of books were they? And are there any titles that you recall, and said, like that one that really made a difference for me. Aryaansh 04:01 So you know, whenever you search out how to invest in the stock market, you keep getting hit by these three names, the Intelligent Investor, and there's a few others, but but I think they're amazing reads. So I got recommended a bunch of books by this investor called Peter Lynch. And he actually managed, you know, Fidelity Investments Magellan fund, and he had one of the best track records as a fund manager. And I found that really interesting. So I was, like, you know, quite a lot to learn. So, the two books that I feel always have, you know, helped me learn the most, one up on Wall Street and beating the street. So big link to wall street there. However, I think it's very interesting because, you know, once you look into the mindset of someone who has, you know, in the auto of these market cycles, you know, the stock market dips, big stock market corrections. It's really interesting to see that, you know, these people don't invest, you know, like the other shopping spree. It's, you know, very careful. They do their analysis very well. And each of them has a very eccentric style of investing. And I think what's really cool is that, you know, you can invite these qualities into yourself. And then Apart from that, I think, you know, the internet's been amazingly helpful to me, in terms of, you know, actually inhaling this content. So there have been these awesome courses and podcasts that I've been listening to, that just helped me get a good flavor of how you know, the financial world is moving. Podcast Host 05:26 Okay, so you're enjoying the motivation that you got from the game that you played. And just to be clear, that was like $100,000, pretend money, not real money. And, and, for me, I played a similar game when I was in high school as well. But like, I didn't go on with it, because I think I got kind of bored looking at the numbers, and it just seemed to go up and down. And I didn't really know too much about the work that you could put in to make a more informed choice. And it sounds like for you that that's the kind of switch that made you more interested in the investing side of things. Like, once you start knowing that the more analysis you put in, the better your choices are going to be. And the more apps you'll get the downs, is that the kind of like game that you're playing, that you're kind of trying to, I guess, learn so much that you can outsmart the stock market? I mean, Well, technically, Aryaansh 06:18 yes. Like, you know, the short story is, yes. However, the long story is that, you know, it's like, you know, the house always wins kind of thing. So what I've been trying to do is trying to find companies and trying to find, you know, opportunities that I can quickly make use of as a needle trading on momentum. So, you know, let's say a company is coming out with brilliant earnings, what I do is I buy the stock, and I just wait two weeks for the earnings kind of frenzy to pass, and then I'd sell the stock, because brilliant earnings means that people are gonna, you know, believe that the company is gonna make more money going out, and that was the stocks gonna go up. So it's just, you know, instances like these event based investing, Podcast Host 06:57 Now, a lot of people would say, you need to have money to make money. So if you don't mind me asking, Where did you find the money originally to start investing in the stock market? Aryaansh 07:08 So actually, originally, it wasn't my own money. So I pulled together a bunch of friends. And we decided to set up a signals group. And how signals group works is that, you know, one person sitting there, and He's the owner of the group. And what he does is he independently does his own stock analysis. And maybe, you know, he looks for a bunch of stock charts, and comes up with a bunch of trade ideas. And these trade ideas are ones that he would use himself to make himself money. So what he does is, he goes to the bunch of people in his signals group, and he just gives them the trade idea for a small fee. And it's these small fees, or these small commissions that slowly add up and end up you know, profiting him as well. Podcast Host 07:45 Were you the signals guy? Aryaansh 07:47 Yes, with the three, four of my friends. And then obviously, I transitioned to working on a bigger project with a few other people. Podcast Host 07:54 So you're like the guy giving out the stock tips for a fee, Yahoo consultant in a way, like a new financial consultant, and so your clients were other students? Aryaansh 08:06 Other students, Yes, Podcast Host 08:08 So just within your school, or from the wider Dubai area? Aryaansh 08:10 Oh, no, just within my school. Podcast Host 08:12 Okay. So like, you've got a uni level, that's pretty keen on stock investing, or they're keen on it, if they know someone else is going to do the work for them? Aryaansh 08:20 Precisely. I mean, if that's the kind of thing, you're taking all of this stress on their shoulders, and it went really well, you know, the good thing is they will my friends. So you know, there was a degree of understanding between us, but it was really interesting to see, you know, people are refreshing their stock screens every two seconds reacting to little dips, little gains. And, you know, I found it pretty interesting, just to see as in not only from a psychological thing, but from behavioral thing as in, you know, how people respond to making money. Podcast Host 08:48 Yeah. Now, you don't have to give all your tricks right now. But what are some of the strategies that you like to use, when you're investing in the stock market? I know a lot of people are more like the buy the the solid stocks, hold them for, you know, 10 plus years, and then save them appreciate over that length of time. But I guess when you're 15 years old, you don't really want to be thinking 10 years ahead. So what are some of your strategies for that shorter term investments. Aryaansh 09:14 So, you know, I'm really glad that you brought this point up. And I'm not going to get I'm not going to get very technical with this. But you can get a little technical, Podcast Host 09:23 You can get a little technical, don't be afraid to flex your knowledge a bit. Aryaansh 09:26 So this these indicators, this indicator called the relative strength index, and it basically shows buying momentum versus selling momentum of a stock. And it condenses all that information into this really nice number. And you can use this number to do a lot of things. So there's basically two barriers really, there's an A so you know, ranges from zero to 100. And once it gets to 20, that basically means there's been so much selling pressure on the stock that is bound to go up. And once it gets to 80 there's so much buying pressure on it that it's about to go down. So obviously it's just it's just a Nice indicator of how whether stocks can be moving in the short term, then along with this, what I've done is I've been developing algorithm. So how it works is, you know, you can call it high frequency trading HFT. And how it works is the algorithm buys and sells stocks much, much faster than your I could, as in you know, you know, let's say it spots a certain price discrepancy from one market to another. And what it does is it buys a stock from one sells it at another. And that's called arbitrage. Another thing that this robot does is Well, I mean, I had to develop it myself. And another thing it does is, you know, it gathers insider information. So as an information from people inside the company, and basically sees their stock buying patterns. And, you know, I there's a bunch of math formulas involved. But how it works is it condenses all of this activity. And once again, it puts it into a nice number. And that gives me like an insider sentiment or an insider confidence rating of a stock. And you know, based on this insider confidence rating, I decide whether to buy or sell, because you know, it's the people inside the company that know best about what's happening with the company. Then there's this other technical kind of analysis to dive that a friend of mine and I developed called Brownian motion. And Brownian motion is actually the random movement of particles. So we just leave it like that, because we thought it'd be funny. But how it works is there's a bunch of moving averages and moving averages are basically smoothed out averages of the way a stock price is looking. And we use these averages to find out things called support and resistance levels. And a support level is basically a price level at which the stock just won't go down. As in, you know, once it gets to that price, it is just too cheap for people not to buy. And the same way a resistance level is, you know, a price high enough that people like okay, this is too expensive is going to go down. So you know, we use that kind of we use these technicals to just get a good idea of where stocks gonna be in the next week or so. Podcast Host 11:58 Now, couple of questions. I love what you're doing. I think that's awesome. The algorithm to buy and sell quickly, the high frequency trading, is there not a brokerage cost on those kinds of things. I'm kind of like half asking for myself here Havasu for our listeners, of course. But you know, like for people who have invested before, usually, like if you invest with a bank or something like that, like you invest through a bank, I should say, you pay like a fairly high brokerage costs on any trade. So that's like to even make the trade. They'll say, well, you got to pay us 30 bucks just to make the trade whatever it is. And is that something that comes up in age of tea? Or are you how are you doing it? Aryaansh 12:36 So one thing that I really like to outline here is that for the last two, three years, we've seen brokerages like Robin Hood, on the rise, and they offer commission free investing as zero commissions to buy or sell stocks, you can buy as much as you want. They don't charge you anything. And I think you know, how it works is and these commission free brokerages basically have the potential to wipe out all of the traditional brokerages that charge you pretty hefty fees on buying or selling stocks. Think about it, you know, the average person isn't ready to pay a $30 Commission on a $50 stock. Because that's just exorbitant. And I think you know, what's really interesting is how the rise of Robin Hood and the actual kind of gamification of investing, let's call it that has really led to the whole GameStop saga that we've seen happening over the past month. So when I use my HFT bot, I don't trade it on stocks, I trade, foreign exchange. So foreign exchange is currencies, how many euros can I get for $1? How many Swiss francs can I get for a Euro? That kind of thing. Podcast Host 13:39 Right. Okay, and is that performing? Well, because I'm going to guess that that's not the first algorithm out there that is trying to predict foreign currency exchange rates and how to make you know that arbitrage that difference on each trade, like I'm going to guess there's a lot of maths involved. And there'd be some people developing like really good ones. And some people developing not so good ones how's yours doing? Aryaansh 14:03 Mines doing pretty well. I mean, the purposes that mine serves a really short term. And, you know, obviously, I don't have the infrastructure to make it a massive operation. And I need to do I plan to because the truth is that, you know, you've got these massive investment banks, massive trading firms, you know, that can execute at speeds you literally can't imagine. So there's this really nice book I read called flash boys, and basically a firm paid, I think it was excess of $50 million to lay fiber optic cable straight through mountain instead of taking the obvious route that was right around it. And you know, it's this so there's like a difference, you know, a 1.5 millisecond difference color should be what changes between $10 million dollars and $1 million. And I think, you know, that kind of speed. us any individual person like me just could never match up to Podcast Host 14:55 Okay, but it's still a pretty cool thing that you'll be paying years old and have to go The narrow rhythm to trade foreign currencies? And where did you learn to create an algorithm like that? Is it something that you learned on YouTube through computer science courses? Like, how do you go about that? Aryaansh 15:11 So one beautiful thing about 2021 is that you can get any information you want for absolutely no cost via the internet, it's just that you've got to know where to look. And what I did was, you know, I started with some really basic courses on Python. And Python is the language that I use for majority of my algorithm writing and execution. And basically, most of this was done by YouTube courses. And via, you know, individual boot camps that were done for free. I didn't spend anything on learning how to make these robots. It's all a result of researching on the internet and reading as much as I can. Talking to a bunch of people in the industry is always helpful, I'd say. And LinkedIn is an amazing tool for this. So I'd say harness like it was just a combination of three of those would be, it'll go a long way to fortifying your skills there. Podcast Host 16:01 Yeah. So Python, and then I guess, knowing what you want the bot to do, right? Or what you want the algorithm to do, and then plugging it into your computer, right, so it can recognize the the movements going up and down and making those trades. That's pretty awesome. I think that's pretty cool. And then you've got the the Brownian motion, right. And with that, I'm going to guess that, you know, the the random movements of particles, as you said, the whole GameStop thing, as you said, was like a pretty crazy thing for people in the game of stock markets would have been a bit surprised by that, because it pretty much threw out all the rule books, can you sum up GameStop situation in an easy to understand way? Aryaansh 16:39 Okay, so let's start with this really nice monkey analogy. So you know, let's say, I'm a monkey, and I have a banana. And the banana right now is priced at $10. And, you know, at the end of the day, the banana is still a banana, however, I feel that the price, the value of the banana is going to go down. So what I do is, you know, I go to my good buddy, Alex, and I asked to borrow, you know, a banana that he has, and I immediately sell it on the market. And now I'm holding $10. So you know, say two months past, and the actual value of that banana has decreased to $1. So what I do is, I buy the banana back from those $10 that I got when I initially sold the banana, and I returned the banana back to Alex. So Alex has what he gave me in the first place, and I have a nice profit margin of $9. Right. So this is how shorting a stock works and how, you know, it's basically boring shares, immediately selling them and buying them back later for cheap. And that's, you know, what are key principles you need to understand when realizing, you know, what happened with GameStop. So GameStop is a physical concrete video game retailer, and you know, the COVID pandemic killed, like quite literally kill them. So a lot of hedge funds gotta be good idea to short the stock, that basically means they borrow shares that are really expensive right now, but are going to decline in value, because the companies are going to be making any money. So they borrow the shares. So they borrow the shares, and they immediately sell them. And now they're holding this money, and they want to buy it back later, at a really cheap price. So they started shorting so many shares, that at one point, they somehow exploited a bunch of loopholes, and they manage to borrow shares that did not exist, which is illegal. So a bunch of people on Reddit decided it would be a good idea to try to squeeze these investors. So let's get back to the banana analogy. Now, you know, say I'm holding this banana, and suddenly, the price goes up to $20. Now, suddenly, that's a problem for me, because now I have to buy the banana back for much, much more than I paid for it. And that way, it's going to benefit Alex, because he's holding something that is now worth double what it originally was. And if you recall, I have to buy the banana back. And it's like supply and demand. If I buy more, the price is going to go up, because producers feel that they can sell more. And that's what happened in GameStop. So lots of people tried to buy the stock, and the stock price went up and the hedge funds were like, Oh, no, I'm losing money. And they had to buy back more shares. And they kept on buying it, they kept on buying. And the price slowly went from, you know, a low of like, $2.50 to I think its peak was $483. So you know, it was really crazy. Podcast Host 19:22 What does that tell you about the future of trading? And like the future of algorithms that are used to predict the stock market? Can people still use those kind of algorithms? Can people use kind of old school analysis to predict something like this? Or is this I think, throughout the rule book, in many ways, because a lot of people were saying that no one could have predicted this. It was purely like a user Reddit based kind of revolt of the people rising up against the hedge fund managers. Aryaansh 19:52 Absolutely. And I think I think you know, that's one really important thing to note here is that we saw the revolution, not only in the way that people invest, but in the way that you know how the market is rigged to benefit the wealthy people, as in, you know, these hedge fund guys, they somehow managed to borrow shares that didn't even exist. And you know, that obviously infuriated a lot of people who are, you know, surviving off of stimulus checks kind of thing. And I think, you know, actually, one interesting thing to note here is that the HFT bots, the frequency trading bots, ended up making a lot lot more money, just because of the fact that the stock was so volatile. And since these guys trade very, very short term, as in, you know, the luxury they have is that they can put a million dollars in stock, when it's at $1, and take it up when it's at $1.01 and have a $10,000 profit. But a normal investor just can't do that normally, investor doesn't have the money, a normal investor doesn't have the time, and doesn't have the speed to keep watching that trend. And, you know, I think what it's done is it's really shaken up the notion that the stock market is reserved for people, you know, with massive pools of money, and I think it's gonna attract a lot more people. However, one thing that I'm really thinking about is that there are going to be people who, you know, like the hedge fund managers, they have a lot of money to invest, but an individual investor, he has to invest, say, his daughter's college fund. And if that goes upside, that could obviously not be very good for him. So it's just your nuances like that, that I think will end up obviously, being a bad political guy. Podcast Host 21:29 Yeah, I remember seeing a great quote, actually, that said, the fee of missing out the FOMO of missing the boat on the next big, you know, GameStop, the next Bitcoin, the next Apple, the next, you know, whatever, the FOMO around, that is a greater driver for people to enter the stock market, then the risk of losing money, the main risk is missing out, not losing money, which is a weird way of thinking about it. But I think at the moment, there's probably more stories of the rocket ship to the moon type of stuff, like desktop, and Bitcoin and people making millions off the market, which is bringing all these people to the stock market and to kryptos and whatnot. I'm gonna throw another one out there, actually Dogecoin which has been absolutely, like Dogecoin has gone up like 1000s and 1000s of percent. And for people who follow Elon Musk on Twitter and have been asking themselves, like, what the hell is he tweeting about when he keeps talking about Dogecoin and whatnot, he's talking about crypto. And you know, people have made millions of dollars off this crypto not too many, but a couple people have made millions of dollars off this crypto. And it was really just it felt like a crypto based on a community but it didn't really serve any purpose as far as I can. Exactly. It was purely just like by Dogecoin to be a part of this stupid major type of thing. Aryaansh 22:55 Like exactly that all about. So you know, the actual cryptocurrency was made because of a meme that came around, and it was about this Doge dog. I'm pretty sure you've seen the face. The Shiba Inu. Yes. Yep. It's that it's someone made it this and you know, anyone can virtually set up their own cryptocurrency so someone was like, might as well do it. Dogecoin is a thing now. And you know, this happened, I think seven years back. So this is when crypto was really fledgling. And, you know, everything was really new. Someone was like, might as well make it as a joke. And, you know, that's how it had been ever since. But then GameStop happened and people were like, Okay, I'm trying to find some more assets. I can YOLO my money are in YOLO. You only live once. So you know, take a lot of risk on it and just go all in. So someone was like, oh, Dogecoin and Elon Musk. He's, you know, kind of, he tries to keep up with the trend. You know, he's post memes on his Twitter account. He's just really active that in that kind of sense. So what he decided to do was, he decided to post a single tweet that said much Wow, and uch who W and, you know, the Shiba Inu meme was that it speaks you know, really broken English. And, and, you know, Elon tweeted and I was like, Oh, no, Dogecoin And on that day, the price went up, I think 270% and, you know, you've got people you know, who've just put a $5,000 in this a while back thinking I might as well as it's just just as a joke. And you know, they come back and it just blew their investments balloon. Podcast Host 24:25 You know what I got on that as well. I was like, after GameStop I realized that the stock market has so many who is not willing to do the analysis, not willing to put in the work and just want to be on the next rocket ship to the moon. And when Ilan Musk is championing this dough coin and then Snoop Dogg and like all these other celebrities and stuff getting getting on board as well. I thought, you know what, I didn't put in too much money, but I've put in just enough to make it interesting. You know, it's one of those funny, it's a really funny time to be an investor. It definitely feels very much removed from The days of like, you know, Warren Buffett going to the store and trying things out and, you know, going through the analysis and looking at the costs and that kind of thing, it seems like a more fun way to invest. But in your view, is it a good strategy to be investing in fun things, or is long term profits going to come from from putting in the work? Aryaansh 25:21 I think what we saw right now, I had a really good conversation with someone on LinkedIn the other day, and they said, you know, retail investors have made a mockery of the public markets. And I agree with that statement. To an extent, this is the first thing we've ever seen of this style, individual investors trading the stock market. However, I still feel that it is not a good thing in the long run, because, you know, these are people who are putting money and change their lives into investments. And what I feel that's going to contribute to is, you know, if they lose that money, what now, right? And, you know, these people on very educational the risks of what could happen if their investments, you know, go the other way, and they're in it for the joke, and what now, but literally, so I think I think, you know, people have had that fun, but I really think it's time to move on. Because the house always wins, there is always going to be someone who has more information than someone who is faster than you someone who has more experienced than you. And it's the same thing in the stock market. And what people don't realize is that it's that it's these little advantages that add up. And I think, you know, it's all gonna come tumbling down, you know, we've been like pumping this balloon to its very limit. So I have a feeling, you know, it's quite like a bubble right now. You know, you've got electric vehicle stocks going all the way. And, you know, we actually saw it a while back tech stocks had their worst day, I think, for the last 100 days, the US Treasury bonds hiked their prices up by, you know, obviously very high price. It was like 50 basis points in one day, and people got really scared, and tech stocks, took it on the chin. And, you know, it's this kind of cascade, really, that I think can not only shake up the financial sector as is, but could shake up people's lives. Podcast Host 27:11 Yeah, now you've made entering the stock market or any kind of investing sound, I guess, a bit more realistic in the view that it is a bit riskier than a lot of people think that it's not necessarily a joke. And, you know, you've got to take this kind of seriously. So for students who are listening, and who perhaps have an interest in the stock market, but don't have any money in it yet, what should they do? Or what questions should they be asking themselves? What reading should they be doing? before they start putting money in the direction of the stock market and hoping for the best? Aryaansh 27:41 That's actually really good question. And one thing I'd really like to outline is only invest as much as you're able to lose. So you know, invest as much money as if you lost it the next day as if it evaporated, you'll be perfectly fine with it, it wouldn't have any impact on your life. And I think that's key to understanding how it's not good to get emotionally attached to the stuff you investigate, because price fluctuations happen all the time. And it is definitely not going to help if you're the one refreshing the screen every two seconds, and you know, start crying or start celebrating over little dips in the price. So what I'd really like to think about, everyone listening to think about is, if you're investing in something, only invest in something you can understand. So Peter Lynch, actually the first book I ever read one up on Wall Street, he said, you know, if you cannot explain the idea of the business to a five year old, don't invest in it, they have this company with, you know, a bunch of axes in their name. And it's like x laboratories, and they produced wafer silicone chips for micro optical scanning, you know, really complicated stuff. But if you don't understand the product at its core, you shouldn't go there. You know, which is why, like you said, as well, you know, you'd hold on to a good stock for 10 years, and wait for it to pay its dividends, which would appreciate over the time. And I think that strategy, like it or not, that kind of strategy always wins. And it's like, you know, not to listen to your emotions too much, because there was this good post I saw on Wall Street bets as well. The most important stock you have is your brain, and don't let it fall apart due to a gambling addiction. And, you know, once you see all of this, you know, theoretical money pop up on the screen, once the stock prices go up, you know, you get happy and once it goes down, you get sad. And I think if you've given to your emotions too much, that can kind of don't need to investments just getting derailed, but your life as a whole. Podcast Host 29:34 That's some really good advice. And I always say to students, like if you're going to be learning about anything, learn about investing, because it's a skill you should have for the rest of your life. You're not going to make your fortune. Well, the majority of people are not going to make their fortune through a job. They're going to make their fortune through investing or like owning a business, potentially a property, whatever it might be, but you're never too young to start investing, which leads me to shift gears a little bit towards combining the two investing and getting a job, you have an internship at JP Morgan, which will be a surprise for a lot of people who would have thought that it's probably, you know, more of like a university level thing to be getting an internship with, you know, one of the biggest banks in the world, can you talk us through how a year 1015 year old landed a internship at JP Morgan. Aryaansh 30:23 Um, so actually, you know, it was just a stroke of pure chance, you know, I was scrolling through this kind of repository that I have of articles and links, to internships to job placements. And then I came across the JP Morgan careers website, and I was like, you might as well click on it, explore what it is. So the good thing about JP Morgan's website is that it is laid out much, much better, and they have many more options to offer, then I'm sure that I'm pretty sure any of the other ones, any of the other investment banks or firms, and, you know, they've got really four classes of internship. And of these, I think a two of them are available to high schoolers. And you know, there's like an internship and a pre internship. And so I decided to apply. And, you know, it's a fairly straightforward process, there was this really nice terminal, I filled in my stuff 100 in my resume. And, you know, that was it, then I had done I had to do this thing called a plyometrics test, which is really like an IQ test in the form of a small video game. That was that was interesting, but I had to keep tapping my spacebar a lot. And you know, that was really it. So I think what really stood out about my application as a whole was the fact that I should like not only an interest in finance, but as in, you know, I had taken stuff to feel that interest, as in, you know, I'd set up a fund with my friends, I'd read a little, you know, I'd worked on a little project about financial awareness, that kind of thing. Podcast Host 31:51 Right. And so what did it involve? What were you doing? Aryaansh 31:54 So, so what I've been basically doing for the majority of this is learning how to make financial models. And I think I'm very sure in investment banking, it's a very big thing, you know, because investment banking involves, you know, making deals happen. So, you know, when you get to a business, there's three financial statements, you got to think about, there's an income statement, balance sheet, and a cash flow forecast. And what I've been learning is how to, you know, make the very best of these models. And, you know, there's things called leveraged buyouts. And basically, it's a lot of financial modeling. And actually, over this internship, I learned how to use Excel without a mouse. So that was really the one of the highlights of the entire thing. And yeah, and so Apart from that, I learned a lot more about the trading desks here. And so JPMorgan has an HFT segment. And, you know, what they've been doing is high frequency trading, like I said, trading really seconds. And, you know, I sat down, we were thinking about strategy with a bunch of the people there. And it was very interesting, you know, thinking about what stocks kind of be look for what kind of features they capitalize on, when they are trying to do high frequency trading. Podcast Host 33:01 Right. And you said, one of the big highlights was learning how to use Excel without a mask. I know that there's like a heap of shortcuts. And I know as well that like, people might think, well, that's pretty lame thing to learn from an internship at JP Morgan. But being really good at Excel, and being really good at financial modeling is like a huge part of what a lot of financial analysts need to do. So how is your kind of skill set in that area gone from from like, fairly introductory to, you know, would you say intermediate? Or where do you think you rank yourself against other financial analysts at this point. Aryaansh 33:36 So from what I've heard, from talking to people in the industry, you know, you start out as an analyst role, like you said, and analysts basically get off the ground work passed down to them. And you know, this involves quite a lot of number crunching. And I'd say, you know, my skills really scrappy with Excel, because this because I never used Excel for anything other than, you know, maybe creating a calendar, which is a very limited use case. And, you know, what I found is, there is just so much stuff you can do with Excel. But now, I mean, I always have an Excel tab open for whenever I need to do a little bit of quick maths. And it's just amazing. And there's this really nice means about how the whole world's banking system relies on Microsoft Excel. And you know, just that's how pavlidis use cases, you know, you've got whole companies pulling their balance sheets, putting their financial information onto this one piece of software. And the beautiful thing is the numbers tell a story of that. And I'd say my skill sets gone from, you know, Fanny rusty, to pretty good. I mean, I I mean, the keyboards on it. Podcast Host 34:35 Yeah, exactly. Which is a real test of a good Excel user. And after doing the JP Morgan internship, what kind of doors Do you feel that's open for you, in terms of like your notoriety among your peers as like that one financial nerd to the wider LinkedIn world? Do you feel like it's given you a leg up in that area because you can put JP Morgan on your LinkedIn profile and people know Are you for that? Aryaansh 35:01 I definitely say that does, you know, it's like, the name just got a brand to it. And just having the experiences that I've, you know, gone through the work that I've done, it's really interesting to see how a big thumb handles work. I mean, if I was a university and undergraduate student, you know, if I did good, I'd probably get offered a full time some analyst role that, you know, I obviously wouldn't get paid for, but I'm not coming yet. So I tend, you know, when I talk to my friends as well, it's really interesting to hear about their opinions on a big tank like that. And you said it very well, your notoriety amongst my peers. So I mean, that really is just amazing interacting with people in the industry, working alongside them, shadowing them, users understanding how their thought process is because these people have gone to the very best of schools excel at the very best of what they do. And I think it's been an amazing learning experience. And I'd say, in terms of opening up doors, I mean, I fully understand just how a company's got to tell its story through its numbers. Podcast Host 36:04 Of course, you know, you've been putting in all those numbers in Excel spreadsheets for the last couple of months. So it's good that you've had that opportunity, after the three month experience, are you more committed or less committed, or the same to your future in financing? Aryaansh 36:18 So I think I am much, much more committed. I mean, you know, obviously, the trading part of it is one thing. But I think what's essential, as well as understanding these companies at their core, and I found this kind of experience to be like, an eye opener to things like that, I would definitely, you know, be 100% interested in a salon and still have, like, you know, a big bag. And I find that, you know, it's helped me a lot in understanding just how the world works. Podcast Host 36:47 Yeah, exactly. And in terms of where you want to go in university, like where do you see yourself studying? What do you see yourself studying? Like, Is there much benefit to studying when you are already creating algorithms and doing all this kind of stuff in the 10th? Aryaansh 37:03 I'm so actually, I really want to do this quantitative finance was at the Washington University for my undergraduate I've been looking at like so my top choice schools, all the ivy League's most of the ivy League's. And that's why I really aspire to be and just forming these kind of bonds from these relationships with people is really important. And then obviously, I'm sure that the experience you get and you know, obviously, a top tier University, learning the things that you love doing would be much, much different from you know, you tried to self teach yourself. Podcast Host 37:36 Yeah, absolutely. My my general impression is that classes like economics is not necessarily the place to learn about the stock market. Am I right in saying that? Aryaansh 37:45 I absolutely agree with that economics is, I'd say, the language of how people work. It's like, the good thing about economics is it combines, you know, how people react to things that happen in the market that they end to get onto the internet, the laptop that you've bought, that, you know, you've gone to market transacted for that, you know, you think about what to buy on Amazon? What impacts those decisions? You know, that's, that's, that's really more of a behavioral thing, which I think, you know, it's it's really poetic, really, how economics is this one language encompasses all of it? And it's like, you know, perfectly sound explanation, but everything anyone does, Podcast Host 38:25 Yes, well, that's what they try and do, I guess, in the rational economic style of being rational thinking, not always exactly the case, when you have something like GameStop coming along, which is kind of flew in the face of all economic theory. But do you have any final advice for students who are perhaps aiming for a career in finance, banking, that kind of thing, Aryaansh 38:44 I'd say, you know, the biggest thing you got to remember is that your brain is, you know, the best asset you could ever possibly have. So I'd say, invest more time on yourself, because that's going to ultimately lead to better investments for you. So you know, the books you read, the more courses you do, the more podcasts you listen to, the more people you talk to just just everything, you know, it's no steps, you know, you might read a book, and then just not think about it for the next week. But that book is going to change your outlook on something. And all of these little things, I'd say they add up and they add up and they go exponentially. So you know, I tried to do this, as well as in I tried to read a lot, read an interesting article, or like a book about a topic. I tried to take knowledge in and try to make the best use of that knowledge. And apart from that, I'd say, harness your social networks. And by social networks, I mean, LinkedIn. So, you know, a bunch of the projects I've been working on, I have met people, certainly entrepreneurship bug me, you know, eight, nine months back, it'd be locked down. And the only way I found people to work on things like this with me was via LinkedIn. And if you network with people in the industry, you know, it takes it takes a bit of time to get used to, but I feel you know, that time That you could have spent on tik tok or Instagram, it's gonna be much, much better served on platforms like LinkedIn, making meaningful impressions with the people that can matter most to your career. Podcast Host 40:11 And before you go as well, I want to know where you get your day to day information from because I think a lot of people would think, okay, if I need to learn about the stock market, I'll read the Wall Street Journal, or I'll read, you know, like the, here in Australia, the Australian Financial Review or something like that. But of course, you know, there is a lot of great online forums where you have like, people who are super nerdy about this stuff, who are, you know, telling you things that you probably never read in the newspaper. So what are your go to resources for those that day to day information about what's happening in the stock market? Aryaansh 40:43 So if I want to know what's happening, the stock market says it, you know, news wise, I'd say the Financial Times, they offer a free subscription to secondary school students. So you know, it's amazing that ways, which are financial data as information on stocks, there's this amazing company called atom finance. And atom finance has been, you know, serving my needs for the last year. So they offer like a month, that means subscription for free, and it is amazing. They give you so much data that you just don't know what to do with a little bit. And I'd say, you know, information is really key to understanding what's happening, you know, what moves are going on. So Financial Times are to finance. And this is one last one that's really underrated, but it's called KoiFin and it's basically, you know, like a proper stock trading terminal. Um, except it's just really technical. And you know, you don't need a mouse to use it. It's entirely keyboard driven, which is one thing I like even being on Excel. Podcast Host 41:40 Yeah. So Koi fin, Financial Times, and Atom finance, was it? Absolutely awesome. Well, I will recommend that for students listen to the podcast to save those in their favorites. And if students wanted to connect with you, what would be the best way to go about it? I'm going to guess LinkedIn is one of the Aryaansh 41:58 LinkedIn is the biggest option, there is a connection request, the more than happy to accept it. I love creating relationships with people via LinkedIn. And I mean, you know, my email, Alex, very kindly note that at the start of the session, that one finance analogy. Podcast Host 42:17 Perfect. Well, I'll put those in the show notes, and hopefully some students reach out to you. Thank you so much for joining us, and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Aryaansh 42:25 Absolutely. Thank you so much. Podcast Host 42:27 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to crimsoneducation.org

College Tips - A Deep Dive into the UK Personal Statement with Crimson Strategist, Abbi Colwyn

#5 A Deep Dive into the UK Personal Statement with Crimson Strategist, Abbi Colwyn

🗓 MAR 3, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Welcome to top of the class, hear from education experts and get insights from high achievers to learn how you can do the same get into those top schools ready. Proudly presented by Crimson Education, the world's leader in university admissions support. Hello, and welcome to college tips. Today, UK application strategist and Oxford graduate Abby Cohen discusses the UK personal statements. She shares some of her favorite essay writing formulas, techniques to refine the essays and examples from successful applicants. Let's chat with Abby Cohen. Hi, Abby, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Abbi 00:41 Yeah, great. Thank you for having me. So I'm Abby. I'm a UK strategy consultant here at crimson. So I work with students aiming for top universities in the UK. I myself studied at Oxford, I did English Language and Literature specializing in medieval ism, actually. And then I did my masters at London School of Economics in international policy. Podcast Host 01:03 Wow. So you've been at both Oxford and LSE. So you've seen some of the top universities both in the regional parts of London, I guess you could call Oxford and Cambridge, regional in that sense. And also right in the centre of London, right in the heart of London, what was the biggest difference for you between that experience from Oxford and LSE? Abbi 01:22 I mean, so. So the biggest difference, I would say, was the collegiate system at Oxford. So being part of a college itself, not just the university, I absolutely loved that. It made it super easy to make friends, there was lots of college events, which I found really nice sense of belonging that side of things. Whereas at London I lived in private accommodation with friends already had. So that made things a little bit different for my masters. But I loved London life, the networking, the environment, being on a tube, not so much. But everything else I really, really enjoy, but definitely different living experiences. For sure. Podcast Host 01:57 I've been lucky enough to visit both Oxford and LSE. Just as a tourist, of course, not as a student, I wish as a student. But yeah, it's LSE, I found to be fascinating, because you barely know it's there. Some of the times like you're walking past the buildings, and you'll just see these like little inconspicuous LSA signs. So it's so integrated in the heart of London, and obviously Oxford Oxford, is very much owns the town in a way. But let's get into what you're wanting to chat about today, which I believe is personal statements. Why did you choose personal statements as your topic of choice? Hmm, Abbi 02:30 great question. And so ultimately, I love working with students on their personal statements, I find it such an interesting process, because it's one of those parts of the application that you can really make individual. So it's a chance for me to have meetings with students and actually just get a sense of what their interests are, and have great debates in our sessions as well. So with working with students across different subjects, I'm learning as well, I'm learning about all these different areas of physics, or maths or humanities that that students really, really care about. And so I just find it really, really rewarding experience and to get students from, you know, just initially describing being a bit shy, maybe about I've read this, but I don't really know what to talk about. So then seeing a finished product, something tangible at the end, where that'd be insightful and really, really engaging. It's just a really, really nice thing to see and to work on. So definitely something that I'm passionate about in the application process. Podcast Host 03:23 Yeah, absolutely. I can hear that passion in your voice, which is awesome. So I'm looking forward to asking you some questions here and learning more about the personal statements. My first one being, what role does the personal statement play in the application process? Like, at what stage? Is it likely to be read? Is there likely to play a role there after? Like, what are your views on the importance or the role that the personal statement actually plays? Abbi 03:49 So I guess it's the big personal pitch. So it's really a student's opportunity to give a sense of who they are as a student. So it looks a little bit different in the application process. So students will ultimately write their personal statement as one of the first things they do for the application Admission Test interviews come much later. So that's the first thing they do. Whereas in the application process, it's actually one of the last things, especially for Oxbridge and on top universities that they look at. So they'll start with the kind of the numerical of grades, academics, admission tests, and then they come to look at the statement. So it's really important that that is your big personal pitch that it talks about your interest in the course beyond just what you're good at academically and what you excel in, it needs to very much be about what have you done that demonstrates your interest, your passion, your curiosity, and what are the experiences you've had that makes that relevant? So the role that that really has in the application process is making you an individual making someone who isn't just a carbon copy of what we think universities love to see, but actually someone that's really put in the effort to find out what it is that that they love about their subject and I would say for non Oxbridge universe Because there might not be an interview, it really is your one opportunity to do that you don't have a second chance of giving off your personality and talking through those interests. So it's really worth making the most of that. Podcast Host 05:11 And if you could put like a weighting roughly on the personal statement, is that something that you're able to do? Or does it really depend on your university that you're applying to etc, Abbi 05:21 ignoring kind of medicine, but med dentistry, which is a completely separate ballgame, I would say you're looking at 75% on academics. And then 25% is the personal statement with all the extracurriculars in there with the wider reading subjects engagement. So it's not the biggest factor in your application. But it's certainly something that can push your candidacy and make them make that decision, medicine, dentistry, that med medicine, personal statement becomes less important. They really only use that for the interview stages. And for borderline cases, pretty much everything for those applications will be work experience academics, and the admission test. Podcast Host 06:01 So one of the things that I thought was always interesting, and talking to a former admissions officer who came to Australia, who was a Stanford former Stanford admissions officer, but he said one of the things when you're writing a personal statement for the US, which is another whole topic that we're not going to get into today, but he said like you need to be kind of cognizant of your audience and who you're writing it for. And he said, like the majority of people who are reading these, you know, personal statements in the US and humanities backgrounds type of people, that if you go too heavy in the technical language, they might kind of glaze over and not really understand what you're trying to get across. Is that the same in the UK in that, like the majority of people are reading the personal statements are kind of humanities backgrounds, people who enjoy reading, or is it more kind, of course specific experts who are likely to read the personal statement? Abbi 06:52 Hmm, yeah. So you really have to break this up for kind of Oxbridge and non Oxbridge just because it works completely differently. So, so non Oxbridge, its general admissions officers. So yeah, not necessarily a humanities background. But it will be people who have elected and being, you know, ultimately employed to look through that part of the application process. And so for that kind of application, it does mean being super clear with what you're trying to say you can use specific language to show that you've got knowledge of your course. So we do want you to be very subject specific in your statement, because we don't want it to feel like a humanities statement. We want it to feel say like history statement. Or if you're applying for a stem subject, not just a general stem statement, but a math statement. So you do have to give those specific areas of knowledge with the way you write it needs to be extremely direct and extremely clear. Because it's a general admissions officer, or Oxbridge. It's a completely unique process, because it's tutors that will be reading your statement, not general admission staff. So these will be the people that might interview you, and ultimately could be your tutor in a one to one or two to one tutorial or supervision. So for the Oxbridge application, that very much means going above just here's my interest, but actually making sure that you stand out as someone that a tutor says, right, I want to chew to you, the way that you really do that is by showing your academic character. So by that we mean, showing that you're curious showing that you're an independent thinker. Don't just paraphrase the reading, evaluate it show that you're being critical and analytical. And through that they get a sense of your academic potential for for university levels for Cambridge, that you're not just memorizing a curriculum or memorizing a book. But actually, you're doing something a bit further, something a bit deeper. So that really is the difference, I guess, with who reads it between those universities. Podcast Host 08:43 So am I right in saying that? No, you only have one personal statement to write. So if you're applying to say Oxford or Cambridge because you only apply to one. And you also have LSE UCL, those kind of universities on your shopping list as well. Who should you address your personal statement to I mean, knowing that there's a little bit of a difference between the two approaches, right, should you say, Alright, I'm going to go hard or go home. I'm aiming for Oxbridge. And that's what I'm going to be pitching my personal statement to? Or should you take the more conservative approach and try and write the one personal statement that might strike that middle ground and appease everybody? Abbi 09:21 So we say to all students, or applicants make it an Oxford statement, because if you're if it's an Oxford statement, it will suit the non Oxbridge. It's just that the Oxford has that extra bit of depth, that extra bit of academic reading, but if you're not applying to Oxford or Cambridge, you don't necessarily need to have to get those spots. And so ultimately, the key thing for the whole one size fits all rule. One personal statement for all five choices is just making sure that your course selection is right that you're not picking vastly different courses that your statement is going to alienate one, but target another that if you are applying for slightly different courses, say you're applying for some politics Philosophy, economics GPA, and others just politics and economics. But your main dominating disciplines in there are the politics and economics but with a little bit of philosophy. And so that's really the only thing that you need to account for with the whole kind of one statement for all is just that you're not picking these very, very difficult choices. Podcast Host 10:17 Okay. Well, my next question is about formulas. Because often when it comes to statement writing, whether that be in the US or the UK, I think a lot of people like to start off by understanding the formula is their old kind of way of thinking that once you know the rules, you can break the rules type of thing. But is there actually a typical formula that most students would probably try and follow or emulate if they're writing a personal statement for the UK? Abbi 10:45 Yeah, I mean, so we see kind of what a typical successful statement looks like. And I mean, pretty much all of them have a very, very personal introduction. I know it's similar in the US in terms of having a really bold and impactful opening. So for the UK, that introduction, just needs to really give us a sense of why you're applying for the course. So the example that I give students is really what does it stem from? So not just my parents are lawyers, I want to study law. But actually, is there a debate that you've all discussed? And what was the debate? And what was the particular discussion point that you grappled with? or Are you frustrated by something, something really personal, I would say is a safe formula for that introduction, kind of moving on from that, I guess, main body paragraphs, depending on how long your paragraphs are, because the word count at the same it's so small for the UK, it's 4000 characters. So pretty much 600 words, it's tiny, is really making sure that those main body paragraphs still show depth, even if they're slightly shorter. So we usually say make sure there's a key interest in there, make sure there's some evidence of how you're going to be on the curriculum, and then make sure you've got some analysis, some evaluation of that evidence, what did you gain? You know, what was your big takeaway from the internship you did, or from the book you read, and then really just making sure that that conclusion ties everything together, but really gives a sense of what do you hope to gain from the degree? Have you got a career path in mind? Or really, what do you bring to the degree, so I really push all my international students to lean into their background, because that's what sets them apart from domestic students. So actually, having lived in maybe two different countries, or knowing five languages, what does that add to this degree? Why does that set you apart? And then I guess, in terms of the tone of the statement, the formula that works, is really just being authentic, being genuine. Having senses that aren't just plausible, but really a well conceived that we can see that you've put a lot of time and effort into coming up with the insights, and making that analysis. And a crimson, we have these fairly cheesy saying these five key pillars, but that really does work. And I know spiky pillars, you know, insight. Are you showing those takeaways? Are you engaged and curious? Is it well structured? well written or quality of prose? Is it personal? So only you could be the only feasible author? And then is it is it authentic? And for me, those five things really do work for students? Podcast Host 13:04 Love it. Okay. That's an awesome summary. Thank you so much for that. Abby. I feel like I, I understand, I've been working with Crimson now, nearly five years. And that's probably the best breakdown. I've heard of the personal statement. So thank you for that. How the personal statement might change, if at all, depending on the course you're applying to in particular, because obviously, there is a great emphasis, particularly at Oxbridge regarding the course, is true. So should that formula change at all? Like should you have, you know, if you're applying to a very technical subject, spend more time in your body of your essay talking about the technical sides of your application that you might want to bring to the fore? Or is it all you know, pretty much the same, no matter what chords you're applying to. Abbi 13:58 So definitely can change definitely. So that's, I guess what I've gone through is, if you like a kind of a general skeleton, a general structure, just that is that kind of basic level what it looks like, but certainly, so if you are applying for say medicine, something a bit more professional based or technical, there's different things that they look for. So they want to see work experience, they want to volunteering, they've got a list of kind of key qualities and selection criteria that students have to demonstrate. So you know, honesty or empathy or problem solving that need to be in there. And same really with with some other technical subjects, they engineering, they like to see practical application as well as the academic reading. So it certainly can, that basic skeleton structure can change. And also it really depends on the student's profile. So I work with some students where those three big main paragraph works really well, because a lot of their activities are reading links naturally with one another and there's connections to be made that make the paragraph flow rather than a list, but for other students that I work with, you know, They might have loads of different extracurriculars they've done, they've done an essay competition, they've done work experience, they've made a blog, that don't necessarily all link. And so it makes more sense for them to have slightly smaller paragraphs that are still coherent than try and shove everything together in one long paragraph that actually just doesn't make sense. So we can play around with that structure a little bit. And really, in terms of Oxbridge, the only difference is that they just want to see extra academic engagement. So we roughly say about 80% academic exploration. So that doesn't mean just curriculum, or just reading it might be you've done a research paper or an essay competition, but making sure you're showing that academic potential through your analysis through what you're saying and reflecting on, Podcast Host 15:42 I always like looking at the common mistakes that students might make. So in the personal statements case, what might they be is it maybe even as simple as exceeding the word limit or writing too short or going off topic or, you know, that whole idea of my parents are lawyers, therefore, I want to be a lawyer type of thing. Like, it's been kind of vague as to why students want to be there. But from your side of things, having worked with a lot of students on the personal statement, what do you see as being some of the more basic common mistakes that our listeners might be able to avoid? Abbi 16:12 So as you mentioned, cliches, the big one, I see that so many times, yeah, I've always wanted to be a doctor, I really want to save lives. And that's lovely. You know, we want everyone to save lives. But it needs to be a bit more unique than that, you know, three or voluntary hasn't been a particular patient you engage with that stood out to you and why? So that we avoid the sense of kind of, you're just being pushed into a direction. But instead, actually, you've chosen this direction, it's something that has been an educated choice. So definitely avoid those those kind of cliches. And with that, a lot of students tend to quote people I've seen most recently, actually, that they they think they need to, in reading academic material, use a quotation and actually you really don't you want to be use your own voice as much as possible, rather than using anybody else's. If you are set on using a quote, make sure it's sure and make sure that you don't just have put it in there that you actually engage with it, you know, why are you using the quote? What are the limits of the quote, you know, what do you think the quote, links are more broadly in the issues and insights of your course, the other thing we see a lot is listing, we see a lot of, you know, I need to tell you all my achievements, because they're really impressive. And I'm really happy about them. And that's great. But we don't want it to just be a long list that a tutor is having to read hundreds and hundreds of these that they just go right? Yes. So you want it to be engaging, you want us to get a sense of why these different extracurriculars are relevant to your course and how they build on one another, you know, did you gain different perspectives from different books? Did you, you know, gain a more practical application of doing something. And so the big thing we say, cheesy again, but really discuss don't list. So really get that evaluation with that as well. We say show don't tell. So don't just tell me something, Don't tell me you're creative, or you're critical, or you're independent, show me that show me through what you've done. And that you have those skills? Those would be the main things, I think, Podcast Host 18:05 right? Right. Well, this is an interesting one, because I would have liked to a thought that I was a good English student at school. I don't even know if that sentence was structured correctly. But basically, you get the gist. I thought I was a pretty good English student at school, I would get some decent marks in my essays, etc. is a student who is good at English at school, likely to be at an advantage when writing the personal statement? Or is it pretty much a level playing field because it is a piece of writing that is unlike the majority of pieces of writing that students are likely to engage with at school? Right, you know, you mentioning the quotes and those kinds of things. That sounds like, you know, the the structured essays that they're putting together for their, you know, school assignments in analyzing a text or whatever it might be. So yeah, there's the whole concept that this is a piece of writing that students don't typically engage with, there's a kind of level the playing field. Abbi 18:59 Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting question. I guess I guess it it does. I mean, there's some things you know, about structure, that obviously they're looking for that they want to make sure it's well structured. But it's it's well conceived that, that students are being complex and the way they're thinking, but I think that's an important distinction to make that actually, it's not about having complex convoluted language, because they'll absolutely see through that, that doesn't give you any advantage, if anything, it's just hiding and clouding what you're trying to say. So yeah, it's much better to be clearer, straight to the point direct, saying, I have developed a particular interest in this. Here's how. And so in that sense, I guess, yeah, you don't have to be the top of the English class to write the best statement. It's about the student who is genuinely engaged with that subject, and is talking them through what they've done that demonstrates that interest. So let me try and give you an example here. I had a student last year who applied for economics. English wasn't wasn't his first language, but he wrote an amazing personal statement that was so straight to the point I'm so reflective. I mean, he got an interview to Oxford. So one of his paragraphs, you know, he had work experience in a supermarket, which isn't necessarily life changing doesn't really lend itself naturally to these big analytical, maybe complex, convoluted arguments. But actually, it did, because he said, Look, while working at a supermarket, I noticed that items I level, they were sold most quickly. And he connected this to something you read about I level is to buy level and all about consumer spending consumer behavior. And so actually, yes, he wasn't the best English student. Yes, he didn't have English as a first language. Yes, he didn't have these outstanding extracurriculars that were academic. But the way he reflected on it and the way he wrote it was so direct, that what he was saying was, was complex, as opposed to how he was saying it, if that makes sense. So you know, definitely think that it levels the playing field in that sense. And, as you mentioned, it is unlike essays at school. So this is also why we say to really start this process early. Because the tone of it is completely unique to anything you've ever written before. And probably the only thing you'll ever write again, that actually as long as you take the time and rewrite and edit, and, you know, talk to your strategist or or talk to your teacher and follow those steps, that actually anyone can write a very, very good statement as long as they're being reflective. Podcast Host 21:21 Well, that leads me to my next question, roughly, how long should students put aside to write their statement? Abbi 21:27 Definitely longer than a week. I mean, I I wrote, I think I wrote like eight to nine drafts of my personal statement before I sent it. I mean, this really is a process of rewriting so. So I would say, you know, if you're applying for the early deadline, if you're applying for that October 15, deadline, you want to be starting in May or June, if you're applying for the late January deadline, maybe you've got a bit longer, you know, start in summer, July, August time is probably okay. We also want to think you want to submit earlier than the jam deadline, just because offers that are on a rolling basis, but separate issue. And so really, the reason we say to start early is because there's so much to fit into 600 words. And actually, I think the 600 words, 4000 character limit makes it harder, because you have to still be impactful and show depth and be analytical. But not just talk about one thing, you've got to talk about three or four things and get all your extra curricular and all your reading that you want to mention him. But a lot of our students are just like, how do I narrow this down? And so it takes a while to select what you want to talk about. It takes a while to draw connections so that you know which book which extracurricular belong in the same paragraph, which don't. So that takes some time. Then once you've written it, you might want to restructure the organization, which paragraph do I put at the top? Which is my best one? Where is my insight? A bit common? A bit, you know, generic? How can I deepen that? Do I need to read an extra article? You know, here, I mentioned sports, but I'm applying for medicine, you know, how do I make that relevant, or I need to go and read an article that looks at sports medicine. So it really does take a while to refine exactly what you want to say. And because of the short word count, and because you have to be as concise but as impactful as possible. It does mean that a lot of times, especially near the end, you're spending quite some time taking out those those last 100 200 characters without losing any meaning. And so that in itself can take some time, too. So yeah, definitely, definitely start early. I know that all teachers say that. But if you want this to be something that says to universities, and says to Oxbridge tutors, hey, I really care about my application I've really put the time in, they will be able to see that in the structure and the quality of your statement. Podcast Host 23:34 I really love what you did in the middle of that answer, which was kind of ask yourself those questions to get your statement to that next level, kind of that reflective questions. Is this too cliche? Is this too generic? Have I linked this properly to the course that I'm applying to? Do you have any other tips for that editing, drafting, rewriting process that students might be able to use no matter what I say that writing whether that being a personal statement or any other essay? Sounds like you've done this quite a few times. So I'm going to guess you'd have some tips for students, whether that's to read it out aloud from your side, is there any particular tips that you have for students are going through this drafting process? Abbi 24:14 With the kind of the narrowing the shortening the word count? I say to students, you know, you've said this in two sentence, can you say it in one? So I guess the question they can ask themselves, there is, I might say the same thing twice, but just in a different way. Because that's something that we see as well. Also, in normal essays, you can see that because you really want to make your point and you want to make sure that you're being compelling. You can actually say things twice over. And that's just a waste of word count. So that that's the first thing. I also say students, particularly for this idea about being personal being genuine. I get them to say right, is this sentence just plausible. So as a reader who doesn't know anything about me, they've never met me. They've never spoken to me. Is this sentence believable? So that's number one. Once you found out Yes, it's believable. It's plausible, then is it more than that? Is it actually well conceived? Is it something that's thoughtful, something that I haven't just said, I've done work experience? Let me prove that to you by telling you what department I worked in. But going beyond that, and saying, here's a meeting that I sat on specifically, this is what I learned, I guess is the other question I have, is this specific enough? Or could anybody have written it? And so especially talking about reading, because you know, a lot of these these big books that are on the recommended reading list that students read, you know, that's fine, that's fantastic. But imagine that another 100 students are reading that book, are you saying the exact same thing that they're saying? Or are you saying something different? And that can be a way of making sure that even though you're using really academic and rigorous reading, you're still standing out, you're still being that critical thinker? And also coherence wise? Does every sentence build on the one before? Do you have that flow, as opposed to just this stream of consciousness and thoughts that actually don't link? Is it very much a sense of right, this is a sentence that tells them my interest, this is the sentence that goes deeper, this is the sentence that provides my evidence. So it's really important that you get that sense of building blocks. So I get students to think about that, especially if they're mentioning more than one extracurricular or reading. It's actually a case of well, why are you mentioning both? How does one link to the next does one provide a different approach? Do they disagree? Do they agree? And then what do you think having synthesize the two together? So it's really about those building blocks that they can ask themselves about? Podcast Host 26:24 Well, you're certainly making 600 words sound a lot more complicated than it usually could or should be great when students think 600 word essay, they're like, Oh, yeah, easy, right. But there's so many questions that go into making a really good essay. And I think or personal statement in this case. And I think, and knowing those questions, and knowing how to reflect on the importance of those questions, and knowing what to do, when you find the answer to those questions, they're all the things that go into making a great personal statement. So from your side of things, do you remember a great personal statement? One that kind of jumped out at you I know, you mentioned the student who was applying for economics. But is there any other essay that you can think of where you read it? And it may have been the first time that students submitted it to you or may have been like a third or fourth draft or whatever it might have been? Could have been your own essay? Who knows? And it's a way you're like, oh, wow, they have just nailed this. And can you talk us through I guess, why? Perhaps that essay stands out to you. Abbi 27:25 You know, there's so many, because, like I said about it being like being an original being unique. There's so many times I've read a statement and just go, Wow, you've really understood the connections that I want you to make here. And so Okay, one from this year then. So I had a student who, like, Yeah, let's go for a nice car. So I had a student who applied for for anthropology at most universities, and then at Oxford, apply for it, and eventually has gotten into anthropology and archaeology, which accepts something crazy, like 40 students per year across all colleges, so it's absolutely tiny course. And I think what was impressive about this, the students statement was she never studied archaeology before or anthropology. So both were new subjects. And so what we really worked hard on was using, okay, what can be done in your curriculum that we think is relevant, say, in history or in English, that we can then use to help further your interest in in anthropology, archaeology. And one of the things we started with so one of her paragraphs, she started with Look, I'm deputy editor of my school magazine. And she spoke about the skills she gained, you know, the qualities, the analytical side of it. But then she went into one of these specific articles that initially, she started looking at, from a history perspective, a historical perspective. And then she thought, actually, maybe I can use this for my archaeology anthropology side. And I specifically remember coming to the meeting and saying to me, Abby, I found this ivory salt cellar. And I was like, Okay, cool. Tell me about this ivory salt cellar. And we ended up just having a chat, we ended up reading these articles, she went away, she looked at religion, she looked at culture, as you're at this amazing paragraph all about how this ivory salt cellar, could show us through material culture. The relationship between people in Sierra Leone and the Portuguese, I think in like the 1500, some sometime around then. And she spoke about African themes, Christian motifs, and the impact of trade on Coltrane, it was it was superb. But actually, what stands out most to me was that, once you've done that, once you drink this article for a school magazine, that yes, relevant to the course she's applying for it. In the end, she then had this fantastic sentence at the bottom that said, retrospectively, now evaluating what I did in my newspaper, here's what I would have added. Here's a perspective, I didn't have chance to include them. But I want to tell you about now. So she was showing these, you know, tutors that she done this amazing extracurricular, she done this incredible analysis, but there's still more to do. There's still more to be curious about. And she went and tried to start answering those additional questions. And I think that's a great example of actually you can apply to something you've not studied yet, and still be curious, analytical, engaged, and still managed to make your extracurriculars relevant and draw those connections between your cause And something you've done at school. Podcast Host 30:01 I love that anecdote. That was awesome. Thank you so much. That was great. I really, I really felt like I was reading along with you that student's personal statement. Yeah, it's great as a feeling, you know, for a tutor or mentor, to see a student absolutely nail something like that. You're like, yes, this is going to work. Right. That's a very exciting moment. Is there any other advice that you would give for students before we depart? Yeah, so Abbi 30:27 I think I might have said this earlier. But don't be a carbon copy of what you think universities want to see. Be an individual, find your own interest. And don't shy away from giving your own opinion. They want to know if you agree with a book, they want to know, if there was any limits, and maybe a project that you did, did you face a challenge, like you couldn't find the data you needed? Or actually, in engineering, you made a project that just didn't work? That's fine. So long as you talk about how you overcame it or retrospectively what you would have done differently or what you've learned from that process. Maybe you've learned perseverance. So don't shy away from that and do engage with what you're doing. And ultimately, go and explore go and do loads of reading, find out those niche result sellers that you want to talk about, because that is the things that you know if I remember it, that's also what a tutor will remember as well. So, so be memorable in that sense. Podcast Host 31:17 Abby, it's been fantastic having you on college chats for students out there who would like the opportunity to work with someone like Abby. On their application, there's going to be a link in the show notes to a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor. But otherwise, Abbi, enjoy your lovely day there in London, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

College Tips - Harvard Grad, Gabe Gladstein, on How to Stand out from the Crowd

#4 Harvard Grad, Gabe Gladstein, on How to Stand out from the Crowd

🗓 FEB 24, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Chats. I'm your host Alex Cork. And today I chat with Crimson Education strategist and Harvard graduate, Gabe Gladstein. We discuss how students can stand out from the crowd, especially as standardized testing requirements continue to be dropped, gave shares some fantastic examples of what past students have done, as well as giving his own suggestions on how you can start something today. Let's chat with Gabe bloodstain. Hey, Gabe, welcome to College Chats. It's awesome to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Gabe 00:49 Yeah, so my name is Gabe Gladstein. I'm from Santa Rosa, California. So that's Northern California, near San Francisco. I went to Harvard, I got my BA in government. And then I got a master's degree from the nearby New England Conservatory of Music, and music. And I'm a violinist, a singer and a songwriter. I live in Los Angeles, I've worked at Crimson for nearly six years now, I created our US admissions program. And I'm now the head of product development, which is super exciting. So I continue to work with students, but I also get to like design our new educational services and make sure that, you know, all of our services are on like, you know, the absolute forefront of kind of, you know, the industry broadly. Podcast Host 01:33 Fantastic. And what are we going to focus on today. Gabe 01:36 So today, I'd love to discuss what differentiates students in this day and age, and, you know, kind of what can create a great applicant, I think that with, especially this, you know, the COVID, and the most recent application season, which was really, really competitive, there's some confusion out there, for students about what they can do to really stand out the application process. And I think those things have changed over time. So what I want to talk about today is like, how do you develop a deep interest, which I think is the key to standing out? And then how do you build on that, you know, with your activities list, and, you know, your academic intellectual interests, to really illustrate to colleges that you are something special? Podcast Host 02:15 So what kind of qualities do you think top universities are looking for in applicants? Gabe 02:20 One of the things we're seeing more of an, like, expectations from admissions officers at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, but they're a big part of what they're looking for, is that flexibility. But it's not just like, you know, because I think some kids could interpret flexibility as being like, Oh, well, so I need to be well rounded, like I need to have, you know, a lot of like different things, you know, a lot of different activities or represent a lot of different skill sets. And it's not so simple as that, I think, what they want to see is deep intellectual engagement, and intellectual engagement is like, in a way, it's a form of like creative engagement. So it's, you know, investing time and energy into, you know, learning about one or, you know, maybe a couple things, but then it's developing your own takes on those things, it's developing your own insights and perspectives, you know, seeking out experiences in, you know, in those subjects or relating to those subjects or skill sets. And I think that's really like, that's what they're looking for, you know, they're not, I think the days of like, Oh, I started an app, and therefore, like, Harvard's gonna let me in, like, yeah, those days are sort of actually kind of waning, in my view. I think that, you know, so many kids now have tried to do that, and, and pursued that path that, you know, it's just, it's like anything, right? We in admissions are, there are cycles and things that are, like exciting when they're new. And then you know, that too many people do them, and they're no longer new, they're no longer the exciting thing. Like, this year, we've seen some amazing applicants come through Crimson who basically, like, saw that or understood that trend, and that change, and, like, anticipated it and adjusted and they, you know, they just this year, they this last year, but you know, big pattern that we're seeing is like kids training, especially Gen Z, I think is like really focused on, you know, General AI Community Services, not a broad enough term, it's really, it's more this notion of like, thinking about the well being of humanity. It's never like really broad. But it's true. It's like, the way that that kids are, are conceiving of their potential impact these days is like, so different. I mean, when I was in high school is like, you know, if you start a charity and like, raise $10,000, that's incredibly significant. And that's what is it like 12 years ago or something? It's completely different now, like the thinking around, like, what kind of impact can I have? And obviously, you know, this comes on the back of like, some really inspiring people like Malala and you know, Greta tunberg. And there are many sorts of kids who just like, you know, step into a huge international spotlight, but you don't have to be like them in order to have that kind of impact. And I think that that's, I'm sure that's part of what what you You observed. And part of what we've seen also on our end is like kids really embracing this notion of like, I'm going to do what I can, you know what I'm capable of, and give as much of myself as I can to doing some good. And you know, I'm going to find something that really sticks out to me, or that I can really understand around my head around, and I'm gonna explain to other people, it's movement building, but it doesn't always have to be on a big scale. And that's what's been, I think, really exciting for me to see recently, and it's hard, it's hard to make that change. But, you know, just in terms of like, what admissions officers expect, and how to do that in a way that feels personal, you know, to per each kid, rather than, you know, kind of contrived, and but yeah, I've been really impressed. Podcast Host 05:41 It feels so mature, though, right? Like that whole, that understanding that you are thinking bigger than yourself. It's not just thinking about the college admissions process and what you're going to put in your application. It's like, Who am I as a person? And what am I going to give back to the world, it's, it's, as you said, like, it's not about just creating one thing and saying, that's my ticket to college. It's creating like a holistic story that really portrays what you want to do not just at college, but possibly after college, that takes a whole lot of maturity, and I guess, long term thinking, is that something that you think students are usually good at? Or not so good at? Gabe 06:20 I think that your average student is probably not that great, that type of thinking. And I think it's, yeah, it's interesting, because there are some students we see who do this well, as a result of being really just plugged in to what is happening right now in the world or in society. And that's, I mean, you know, more and more, it's happening through things like Tick tock, you know, those types of mediums where, I mean, you'd be surprised, but Tick Tock is not all dance trends, you know, yeah, it's a, it's a lot of like, videos of very young people talking about extremely serious issues and their community and, you know, their community could be local, state, national, whatever it is, but, you know, often explaining them in a, you know, I mean, you know, the longest Tiktok video you can make is a minute. So, at most, it's going to take them a minute to explain a really complicated issue. There, there are a ton of great tech talks, where they like present evidence, kind of show that evidence for, like, how they came to this conclusion. And, and you know, where this problem that they're pointing out, often it has to do with the way you know, fundamentally, it comes down to the way a certain group of people is treated. And there's a real thread that runs through this generation of kids Gen Z, that I've just been, like, so impressed by like this thread of empathy and the desire to connect and understand in a way that I've always like, think I've always wanted millennials, like my generation to experience more of, and I just feel like it didn't hit us in the same way. But Gen Z grew up in this, like, really complicated world where they were exposed to these problems and what's going on in the world right away, like right off the bat, you know, I mean, from basically, as long as they can remember, right? They've had YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, you know, they've had all these, these different ways of connecting with what's going on in the world for us for my generation, like that happened a little later. And that difference, I think, is enormous. Because, you know, for us, it was like, we started with YouTube. And at the beginning, and Facebook at the beginning was all about us. It was all about like, Well, how do you feel? And you know, what, what, like video, what do you want to say in your like, you know, personal YouTube channel. And so I think that created a mindset for millennials have a little bit more sort of self centeredness. But Gen Z is like, I think often treats this very differently, there's a lot more concern for, you know, what is happening, what other people's experiences are. So that's like, to me, like, that's kind of the best, most natural way that kids can come up upon this perspective, is just by being tuned in to global events, what's going on in the world, it could mean reading the New York Times. And that's great. Like, that's a great way to learn to figure out but it doesn't have to me that it can really like it could be through the social media that they're all already using, but it's about how they use it. And look, do dance trends, like that's fun, like engage with these things in a fun way. I think any every student I work with, like, I always encourage them to, like, seek out the parts of these things that bring them joy. But but also think constructively. You know, think like, okay, where are the pockets on this platform of information that like, I want to seek out I want to find I want to find out what's going on in my community? How do I who's making the content? That's, that's like breaking some news or, you know, revealing some inequities in the world? And what can I do, the great thing about these tech talks is oftentimes, like, they'll end with some kind of call to action. You know, these kids like they're brilliant, the way they're thinking up, like how to make an impact even from just where they're sitting, you know, in their whatever their their family's house and whatever country and I think it's a type of engagement and it's seeking out, you know, that content and those opportunities to do something to have an impact. Podcast Host 09:54 What do you think about the academically brilliant student, right, because obviously, the satays The subject test etc have taken a significant backward step over the last year or so during COVID. And is there still a place for a student who just puts their nose in the books? I mean, obviously, not to the extent where they have basically no extracurriculars, or they would have some extracurriculars. But their primary reason for going to college or their primary card that they're going to play in the admissions process is academics. Is that still a card that students could potentially play? Or is that now No, no longer enough? Gabe 10:32 It's not enough. But to be clear, like, I don't think that academics alone have been enough for a good little while. Because I think even when I was applying to college, it wasn't enough to just be the best, you know, academically or in terms of your grades, you needed more than that. And I think that it's interesting to see as having the Subject Tests, I'm glad you brought that up. because historically, there have been these things like the Subject Tests, which are, I would what I would call like, low hanging fruit. So like very easy opportunities to show that you have some academic skill in a certain area, and those getting taken away, I think, is not necessarily a bad thing, actually, because in the end, I think what colleges really want to see is deeper engagement. And just, you know, taking the like biology subject test to prove that you did well, in your biology class, is not that interesting, right? It doesn't really tell them that much about you, but volunteering at your, you know, local, like marine biology, you know, Conservation Center over the summer, and meeting a scientist there, who you then work with during the next school year, and you end up like, you know, assisting some of their research. And that introduces you to somebody who ends up being a mentor and writes a letter of recommendation for you saying this person is like, brilliant, you know, next hope for marine biology. Like, those are the sorts of things that colleges are interested in. And then the thing is, like, what that really requires, it's not some kind of like, innate academic brilliance, that's the thing is like, that is less important than just sheer initiative like spunk, that's what they want to see. They want to, like, is this kid sitting, you know, in their room, hoping or waiting for an opportunity to come to them? Or are they going out and, and finding one, I think, when it comes to academically brilliant students, like, Look, I want to be clear, you don't have to start a charity, like you don't have to do some, some incredible, like, you know, community service project, or, you know, you don't have to be a genius artist, you have to be a genius at all, really, all you need to do is pursue something with depth, that's really what they're looking for is the development of a deep interest. And this is like a huge part of crimsons, non appier curriculum. So this is like how we work with students who provide strategy for them during the three years before they apply to college. It's thinking about, okay, how do we help each and every one of our students, it doesn't matter if they're aiming for Harvard, or they're aiming for a much lower rank school, we want every one of our students to develop a deep interest. A deep interest is basically something that you can talk, it could be literally anything, but it's something that you can talk about, like off the cuff, and you're so fluent in the subject, that you can make someone who has, like, no idea about this subject interested in it. So it's like, you know, it would be like if I started talking to you about like the Triangle Shirtwaist fire in the 1920s, in the United States, and I told you all the reasons why, like that actually led to the, you know, labor movement, and you know, for that reason, like, we have unions today. And you know, it's like, like just diving into one like particular element of something very deeply, very passionately, and then pursuing it. So it's like, you build that knowledge, and then you got to do something with that knowledge. And so I gave the example earlier, right? If you're like, interested in biology, you go and find a lab or you find, you know, somebody locally, somebody close to you who is doing something related to the field you're interested in. But you know, it can be anything like, I there's this great example that I love, that I think about a lot where so this girl was, we can call it, Rachel, she had a deep interest in teaching. And so she was looking for opportunities to get involved in ways that other students aren't. And that's the key initiative, right? So it's like, what is everyone doing? And if everyone's doing that thing, try to find something different. Like, that's really, you know, you want to differentiate yourself. And so she was looking around, okay, I'm really interested in being a teacher. What can I do now? I'm just in high school, what can I do now to engage with that interest. She discovered that teachers at her local elementary school so that, you know, school for younger grades, they had tons of tasks and chores that they were doing, you know, these teachers are staying hours after school, to complete those tasks on behalf of their students without any assistance. And of course, you know, school budgets being what they are, they didn't have any money to hire anyone. So there's no one to help them. And there was no structure for a volunteer program or anything like that. But she went to the school regardless, she went She talked to a teacher there. And of course, as you can imagine, right, that teacher was more than happy to have her help out. Because you know, the teachers totally overwhelmed. So every day after her own school is is over, Rachel would go over to the elementary school and help for an hour. And so that's like, that's the beginning, right? That's the beginning of something. Not everyone is doing that that's something a little different. And it's engaging with her interest. But how do you how do you go deeper than that? Even? How do you build on that? And of course, Rachel did that. So one day, Rachel was, was talking with with one of the main teachers that she helped teacher wanted to start, like an after school reading program for her kids. But of course, as you can imagine, she doesn't have time right now. She's a teacher, it's no time to start it. So Rachel decided to do the research herself and figure out okay, what are some like other after school reading programs that have worked at other schools, she read about it. And with the teacher support, she went presented to the principal of the school, here's the program, I want to start, you know, here's how I'd run it. Here's the curriculum, here's how kids will get involved, I'll do the logistics, you know, and the principal proved it. So the end result was she ended up running this amazing program, and an elementary school that was like, completely unique, that you know, didn't exist in her community and benefited these kids enormously. So look, that's not gretta tunberg. Right. Like, that's not some kind of international huge thing. And yet, that's incredibly unique and incredibly special. And, you know, I mean, that level of engaged, that's years of work, and that level of engagement and serious commitment to her interest. I mean, that's like she, you know, she's going to Harvard like, that's the, in the end, she she got into all of this school, she applied she's super, super successful applicant. So what I'm talking about developing a deep interest, that's really the kind of thing I'm talking about is like that level of focused pursuit. You don't have to be a genius. You don't have to be wealthy. It really like the I think, in general, the the requirements and prerequisites for that are pretty low, you just have to be interested, you have to be engaged, and you have to take some initiative, it's not just going to come to you. Does that make sense? Podcast Host 16:59 Yeah, no, it does. Absolutely. And I think it was a fantastic example, one thing that I'm interested in is that if students are looking around saying, okay, I want to differentiate myself, I want to do something unique. But realistically, I only know of students in my school and what they're doing, right, and there's not many other students, like say, for instance, here in Australia or elsewhere around the world, where there's not a huge amount of students kind of aiming for no yo IV leads, etc, right? It can be a bit difficult to kind of figure out well, what is everyone else doing? And how can I differentiate myself? Because you might say, Oh, look, I'm going to develop my own app, because no one else in my school is developing an app. But when you go to the Harvard application office, or have admissions office, there's a haich D students who have created an app, so you don't really stand out. So how would you go about as a student figuring out what is unique? What can differentiate yourself from the rest of the cohort? Or the applicant cohort? Is it like talking to a teacher who's been there for a number of years and may have more experience? Obviously, like, at crimson, we have a good overview of students from all around the world who are applying and kind of give students a bit of a leg up there for sure. But is there any tip that you would have for students to kind of figure out what exactly could be their niche? And how could they find that? Gabe 18:12 Yeah, I think it's a great question. So there compliances that, I think, first of all, you know, there's the first question of like, you know, and I've come across a lot of kids who are like this, who are like, I don't have a passion, like, I'm, I don't know, I want to do in life. I don't know, like, you know, some kids love music, some get, you know, but some kids just don't have that, you know, they they get to high school, and they're like, I haven't found my thing yet. And I think there's, you know, there's a thing that I call the passion myth, which is this notion that like, if you don't feel this somehow, like innate connection or innate love, for one thing, then you just like, don't have passion, you never will. It's just not true. That's not how anybody works. You know, I was fortunate, because my parents introduced me, like, I started playing music. When I was two years old, started playing drums. I started playing violin when I was five. So my parents basically helped music to become my passion, I had that advantage. A lot of kids don't have that type of advantage. So get to high school, and they just don't know what they love yet. And that's fine. It's not a big deal. When I'm talking about a deep interest, I'm not talking about something that you necessarily innately love or innately, you know, feel this connection to, it's just something that you have decided consciously, to learn more about to dive into, it doesn't need to be your career, like, you know, this Rachel example that I gave before, she doesn't have to pursue a career in teaching. After that. It could just be that she's interested in education during high school, you know, she can do whatever she wants, once she gets into college, and that's the advantage of going through us college. It's like, you can really do whatever you like. But the point being that like, developing a deep interest is really just about making a decision that you are going to like, basically follow, you know, kind of a winding path wherever it leads, but you have to be willing to take that risk, right. It costs a lot in time. cost a lot in energy to really pursue a deep interest. So I think that's where it starts is being willing to take that leap. And you know, again, a kid, you know, will say, Well, okay, but how do I even know what to take a leap with? And honestly, it's like, tell me one one thing that you learned from class during the last week, what's one thing that you learned? That was like interesting to you, and some kids will pull out a fact from math class, some kids will pull out a fact from science, some will say, Oh, I read this great thing in English, actually, that I really liked. And to me, it's like, all right, there is a starting point, which thing Do they choose? That really interested them? Oh, that interested you? Why? Why did that interest you? Like, what about that was engaging to you, and let's start diving in, like, let's see if that's a thing is that something that you know, has legs that you could really pursue. And again, like, it comes down to the student's own willingness to say, like, this doesn't have to be the end all be all of my life's passion, what I need now is something to build in some, some interest, some area that I'm going to build during these next, whatever it is, you know, high school years, three, four years, and you know, once I get to college, I can make any choice I want. But now I need to find the thing. Now, once you find the thing, then there's a question that you asked, which is like, how do you differentiate yourself from other people who are in that thing? I think Crimson plays a great role here. Because obviously, you know, like, I work with students who are all around the world. So even though my students in Australia may have no idea what my students in Vietnam, you know, are doing or like, what kind of stuff they're doing, I have an idea. So I can help like, you know, provide some guidance there. And, you know, research local opportunities. So that's where Crimson comes in. But if you don't have Crimson, or even with Crimson, like, I don't think that you need that type of perspective, in order to figure out my theory about a deep interest is that if you pursue whatever you are really interested in, like with intention, and via, like taking initiative, you will just end up in unique opportunities. Like I think if you were a student who you know, so let's we can take another example, right? Say your student is just like super academic, and you're interested in math, and you don't, you know, you're not super social. And so you know, you're not going to like necessarily go and volunteer, but you're really passionate about mathematics. Obviously, they're your standard extracurriculars, like the Olympiad, and those sorts of things which are international. And those are great opportunities. And I would highly recommend, like any student who's interested to get involved and that sort of stuff. But there are lots of other ways to and if you choose one area of mathematics as your deep interest, like, when it comes to math, or specific areas of math, there are a few experts in the world on most mathematical concepts. And so if I'm a student in high school, I'm, you know, I'm super passionate about what, and unfortunately, I don't know enough about math to even come up with an example here. It's not my field. But if I'm super passionate about one area, what I would do is I would go and look up like PhD students at a US college that I like, you know, okay, I'd love to go to you pen. So I go and look up like you Penn's PhD program in math, because I'm looking for, in particular, I'm looking for students, PhD students who are interested in like, some kind of, you know, high level algebra. Okay, so I go through the PhD list, and I guarantee you, there's going to be like one kid, you know, one, one student, one PhD student who's interested, I write him an email, that's the beginning of something, right? So it's, again, it's just about taking initiative, when I write that email, right, that's something that my classmates are not going to do guarantee. Like, that's just that they're not going to do that. Because, you know, they're not going to choose the same person at the same school. It's all about like, how much initiative Can you take? How much can you dig in, and kids need to be creative, you know, they need to think creatively. Like, that's part of what makes it a competitive application. And what I was saying before, is, like, admissions officers want to see that you really went above and beyond in your deep interest, they want to see that you pushed yourself intellectually, you know, you don't have to compare yourself to other students. It's really just like, you know, did you keep your heads at your head in your textbook? And you know, just like, do well on the LSAT, or did you do something more, you know, did you try to expand and build? Podcast Host 24:09 Yeah, absolutely. Is there any particular activity or place where students can put their time that you think is generally not worth their time? Because I've spoken to students who have like a marsay, violin and piano, and that's the card that they're going to try and play when they go to college. And my general feeling on that is like, Okay, great. You've sunk a heap of time, I'm sure a heap of time into music, but there's probably not necessarily a shortage of great violinists and great pianists who are applying already. So is there any other example doesn't have to be music, but any particular kind of activities that you think students generally sink too much time in? That's not overly productive in gaining admission? Gabe 24:54 The the broad answer is, I see students all the time, who will Like, basically join a club, and then just participate in the club at the, like baseline membership level, or even, you know, they'll take on some like, kind of lower level, you know, they'll become like the secretary treasurer of some club that when where they don't really do much, you know, there's like not not much responsibility, and they'll sort of hope that like that just the title of that position will like, give them some big advantage or whatever, or just being a member of such and such club will give them No, no, that just doesn't, it doesn't help that much. And the same thing goes for, like, the music thing of like, you know, while I, you know, pass the exam, and I got this certification or whatever, it's like, there are so many 1000s of kids who have done that. And, you know, if you're, if you're trying to apply to Conservatory, you know, okay, sure, you should check that box, right. It's just like the sap like, you know, you need to get a good enough score on the SAP, but no, college is going to look at your SAP score and be like, wow, we have to let that kid that's just not how this works, you know. So it's not a differentiator. And the reason it's not a differentiator is because so many hundreds of 1000s of students do this, they'll join a club at the base level, and just kind of be a member. And it's like, there's no, there's nothing there, you know, there's no substance there, unless it's really meaningful to them. And they've really contributed something big. So I still see this all the time where, you know, students will sort of be like, oh, in order to apply to be a successful applicant, I need to have a bunch of things on my extracurricular list. So I'm just going to throw a bunch of stuff at a wall and like, see what sticks. And so then when we get into when it comes time to put their extracurricular list together, it's like, yeah, I've been in this club for three years, but I've never really done anything, you know, we have a meeting a week, and it's fine, whatever. And I'm like, Well, you know, okay, well, tell me more, you know, did you ever go on a trip? Where did you organize something, you know, for the club? And it's like, well, you know, I did this little event, but you know, I didn't really care about it's like, Okay, why did you spend all this time doing all these different things you don't care about? Like, that's the problem for me is that students just try to do so many things. And they don't really care that much about them. So if I were to give one blanket piece of advice, it's stop doing things you don't care about. Like that is not what admissions officers are looking for. They're not looking for a bunch of crap that goes on a list. Because look, when they receive that, that's how they read it to, like, they can see when you're passionate about something versus when you've just done a bunch of things, because you thought that's what you had to do. They're not interested in letting kids in who do the latter. They want kids who do it, who do the activities they do because they love them, and they dig deeply into them. So when it comes to something like music, you know, you have this question of like, Alright, well, every kid's going to take those exams and get those certifications. So how do I differentiate? And there are like, a million answers, there are so many different places in, in individuals, local community where they can volunteer, you know, their time to teach music, to play music, for a benefit, you know, they could go to a hospital and play music for patients there, they could volunteer with a music therapist, or they could volunteer to teach kids at their local church on the weekend, you know, and those sorts of opportunities can build into something much bigger, you know, and those they can build into recommendation letters and, and, you know, mentors and connections and things like that colleges want to see like, Do you care about something that you're doing? And if you care, dig in, like, do more of that thing. Do more activities relating to that thing? Does that make sense? Podcast Host 28:28 Yeah, absolutely. No, it kind of reminds me of my days playing violin at the old age homes that I had around here in Australia, it's a bit of fun, they love it. Obviously, like COVID has thrown a curveball, I think in a lot of those activities in terms of access to these kind of opportunities. But you know, if you get creative is a good organization here. And that was started by some students in Melbourne called letters against ISO. And it was like students who banded together to write letters to people in aged care, to basically just kind of have pen pals to you know, try and make them feel less isolated in no time where it is very isolating. So Gabe 29:04 I have to say this is one of my students who started is Hannah. Yes. Yeah. I Podcast Host 29:09 didn't know that. That's, that's very funny. I didn't know he actually was your student. That's so Gabe 29:15 cool. And I I can take absolutely no credit for the site. Like this was all all her and she created this. It's an amazing organization. She's done just a fantastic job leading it. But yeah, she's, she's awesome. And that that organization is sent, like 10s of 1000s of letters. Yeah. You know, like hundreds of maybe 1000s of different seniors. And now it's in multiple countries. And it's just amazing what she's done. Yeah. Podcast Host 29:40 Oh, that's awesome. And I actually didn't know that she was your student. And I swear, that's not set up for anybody. No, that's very, very cool. Now, I want to still touch on the academic side of things because I think it'd be remiss of us to not at least address that whole idea of how students can further bolster their academics in the absence Since of the satays, and that kind of thing, I will just touch on that quickly. I know like a PS have been thrown around, we do that through CGA these days, and the students who are looking at you know whether they should really go towards IB or do extra a levels, these kinds of things. Obviously, like, as you mentioned, the extra curricular side of things, you know, if you're a biology student, go spend time volunteering in a marine Conservatory. And that's probably going to be much more impressive for those students aiming for biology courses. But from your point of view, without the LSAT, LSAT, Subject Tests, etc, I think a lot of students are going to be panicking a little bit, what would be your advice in that situation? Gabe 30:38 So, and I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it really does come back to this idea of like diving deeply into your academic areas of talent and skill. So we can start with some basics, you know, you don't have the sad subject test, how are you going to illustrate expertise in certain subjects, there are now so so many online courses, and really good ones, like through edX that you can take, and you can get certificates with them, you know, you can take a Harvard class and get a certificate, you know, through edX. And it's, it's rather remarkable, and I would highly recommend that students do that in subjects that are interesting to them. And I would say, like, aim to take maybe a couple courses that dig deeply into interdisciplinary areas of like that, with that, you know, hover around a common theme. So you know, for example, if you're interested in international relations, I would say, like, take a class on the politics of China, you know, take a class on how like, poverty can offset developments in, you know, burgeoning countries and economies take these classes where you can draw a thematic through line through the different classes, but they're not just all on the exact same topic. Because, you know, a big part of what colleges are looking for is like, interdisciplinary engagement with a general theme. So I love online courses. For this reason, there's online immersion courses from Columbia, these are amazing. They're actual certifications in things like, you know, technological subject coding, there's a great one, a certification from Cornell, that I've recommended to computer science students in the past, you could write a research paper on an academic subject that interests you, you know, to try to dig deeply into, you know, let's say you have a question on, you know, how to create a, like reusable water source, you know, in a, in a, like, village setting that doesn't have a lot of technology. And so you do research on like, what are the existing technologies that could be used, you know, what would be most functional, what's been tested, it's just a random example. But like, kind of engaging deeply in your academic subject, and then trying to publish it. And look, if you can't find a journal, and there are some journals out there for high schools, but if you can't find a journal, put it on medium, like, just put your writing out there, like, you can self publish, it's fun, make a YouTube video about it. Obviously, there's the like, you know, building legacy projects, things that's like apps, companies, you know, this is sort of a now a more popular method of like, illustrating your interest in something. So, you know, if you're super interested in healthcare, you know, building an app that helps people understand the local hospital system, and this, this low boss was particularly, you know, strong for, you know, this type of surgery, and this local hospital has a doctors and specialists in this or whatever, you know, I'm just throwing out kind of random examples. But I think the kind of overarching answer is like, there are a lot of ways to dive deeply into these, like critical subject areas that illustrate expertise, like beyond the SAP, or any standardized exam. And I think tests have always been the least interesting way of doing that. And so now that they're getting rid of them, it's like, for me, it's like, I'm not even I'm not that bothered, I think it's a good thing. You know, it'll force kids to think a little bit more outside the box, you know, actually, like, try to engage deeply with their, their subject areas, we pulled out a couple recommendations at the top, I think are great. Like, if you can take a levels, do it. If you can take AP exams, do it if you can take IB exams, do it. Like, these are all great illustrations of academic skill. But they're not the only thing. There are definitely other ways to do that. Podcast Host 34:17 Yeah, absolutely. But one thing that I am interested in as well is how should students tell their parents that this is a good use of their time, when a lot of parents come from and I was chatting to students like this on the podcast, like parents come from, you know, India or China or like, academically rigorous backgrounds, right? Yep. And then the child's like, Hey, I'm gonna go volunteer at the old age home, or I'm gonna join the Marine Conservatory. And then like, parents, like, what are you doing? Study please like if you're gonna get into Harvard study, and it's a it's a real challenge. So what would you say to students in that situation or to parents in that situation to kind of help them get on the same page? Gabe 35:00 Yeah, so typically what I say is, there is basically so so when I think about Harvard, okay, so let's just use Harvard as an example. Obviously Harvard, you know, is is like the top school, but let's use it as an example. There's something like 60,000 applications every year. So somewhere around that, like 50 to 60,000 applications every year, they had made about 2000 students. So, you know, incredibly competitive. And what you have to ask yourself as a student, and as a parent, you know, of a student is, is there any subject that I'm working in right now, where just my skill in this subject is going to be better than 50,000 other applicants, the best other students in the world? That's the question, because really, what it comes down to is like, at least 10, to 12,000 of the applicants to Harvard, are academically qualified to go there. So already, you have like five to six times the number who can actually get in, like, who Harvard has room for you five to six times that number, who were qualified. So academic qualifications are so far from enough, it's just not enough, because it doesn't differentiate you, you need that. And that deeper digging into your, your subject area, you know, that grade extracurricular, you need these deeper things, it's not enough. Now to be clear, you know, students who are actually aiming for top schools like that shouldn't sacrifice their, you know, academic, their grades, you know, for the sake of an extracurricular, if, if they find themselves slipping academically, I think that always you know, you need to be performing at the highest standard for yourself that you possibly can particularly, you need to be performing like, against your peers, you know, very competitively, because that's when colleges are looking, you know, they're really looking at you versus the rest of the kids at your school who are applying or the rest of the kids in your country who are applying. So, you know, they're looking at your academics in that context. So you need to make sure you're still, you know, being very competitive there, you don't want to let that slide. But it's just not enough by itself, and putting all of your time into getting all the perfect grades. Without any of that deeper, you know, diving into your subject areas, it's just not going to result in the success that I think parents and students really seek. So that's the key. It's that differentiating factor, and it's remembering, like, Look, just getting great grades isn't going to make me look different from all the other 1000s of kids who get great grades. Podcast Host 37:33 The stats don't lie at the end of the day, and I think if parents and students both on the same page with that, and we're like, Okay, then how do we differentiate ourselves? Okay, that's, that's the real key. Oh, yeah. It's been awesome having you on the college chats podcast. And if you'd like a chance to work with someone like a then by all means, jump into the show notes, and there'll be a link there for a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor, who will kind of help you pick your path potentially to the world's top universities. But again, thank you again for joining us on college chats. And yeah, I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Gabe 38:07 Yeah, my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me. Podcast Host 38:09 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes. For show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

College Tips - Comparing Your University Options: US vs UK vs Canada with Bryn Laxton-Coglon

#3 Comparing Your University Options: US vs UK vs Canada with Bryn Laxton-Coglon

🗓 FEB 17, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Check it out. Welcome to top of the class, hear from education experts and get insights from high achievers to learn how you can do the same get into those top schools ready. Proudly presented by Crimson Education, the world's leader in university admissions support. Hello, and welcome to college chats a series from the top of the class podcast. Today I chat with Crimson Education strategist and LSE law graduate, Bryn Laxton-Coglon. Originally from Canada and now living in Brazil. Bryn draws from his own international experience in helping you choose between studying in the US, UK or Canada. Let's chat with Bryn Laxton-Coglon. Hi, Bryn, welcome to College Chats. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself maybe about your background, where you studied and what you're doing now? Bryn 00:49 Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for having me, Alex. So to all the listeners out there, Hello, thank you so much for joining us. My name is Bryn. I'm originally from Vancouver, Canada, I was born and raised in a sleepy little suburb called West van to the west of Vancouver. And I actually I went to a French immersion school. So my school is actually primarily in French. And so sort of from a young age I because I kind of had that bilingual international kind of education, I always wanted to learn about new cultures and study abroad. So that seed was planted within me pretty young, especially with the French thing. I always had my eyes on Europe, and went to France on holiday as speaking French. So I knew that was where I was headed. And then sort of while in school, I developed a particular interest for the social sciences. So a combination of all of those things led me to study law at at the London School of Economics. And really enjoyed that experience that was amazing, surrounded by super intelligent people, and one of the world's most exciting cities, but decided that maybe law wasn't quite what I thought it was. So I ended up working in business management consultancy for a while, but kind of decided I want to have an impact and love to working with young people. So switch to education. And now I'm a strategist here with Crimson. And I help mentor students primarily applied to UK universities, but also sort of Canadian schools, US schools, even some, some Asian countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. Podcast Host 02:23 Wow. So you got like a kind of a wide breadth of experience going from Canada to London. And now being a crimson strategist, where you're helping students to apply to anywhere around the world, or mainly the UK, I guess. But you kind of get this really broad scope of it a little bit of everything. And, you know, with the French language as well, I'm sure that held you in good stead when you're kind of applying for the International bass roles occasionally. Is that right? Bryn 02:46 Yeah, exactly. And just to top it off to throw like another spanner in the mix. I currently live in Brazil. So as if as if I wasn't getting around enough, I live in Brazil, Crimson has an office here. And we have loads of students based on Brazil. So just a little bit more international flavor. Podcast Host 03:00 Do you speak Portuguese? Bryn 03:02 I speak Portuguese very poorly, but you know, slowly making progress. Podcast Host 03:07 And what are you interested in sharing with students around the world today? Bryn 03:10 So I was thinking today that we could spend a little bit of time outlining the sort of main differences between various countries, mostly focusing on US and UK, like, how does that application process work? You know, what is kind of studying in those different countries? Like, what is a great candidate in the admissions officers eyes of those various countries look like? So talking a little bit about the differences between US, UK? And I'll also throw in Canada into the mix, too, because I am a Canadian. Podcast Host 03:43 Right? That's fantastic. Well, I know, it's obviously a big challenge that students have they want to study at some of the world's top universities. And in that conversation, you almost always have some of the top universities in the US some of the top universities in the UK, and to a somewhat lesser extent, but always needs to be mentioned some Canadian universities as well. So what are some of the main factors that you think should go into the decision making process for students? when they're first off deciding? Can I apply to the or should I apply to the US or UK understanding that I know, you know, from my time at Crimson as well, we've had students who've applied to both as well, you know, who've gone into some places like Cambridge and Harvard, we had a student last year got into them another student, who ended up in Harvard and Oxford as well. So it's something that you can apply to both, but it is a lot of work. What would be your recommendations for students if they're trying to decide between the two? Great question. Bryn 04:33 I think starting with this idea of applying to both countries, I also have many students that are interested in applying to both and the students that tend to seek out that option are the students that are brilliant and motivated to go to a top university and don't necessarily care where that is. They want to have a rigorously challenging, stimulating intellectual experience, and they recognize they could get that in the UK or in the US. So for students whose main priority is just they want to be challenged, they want to have like a really fantastically, intellectually stimulating university experience, you know, then apply for universities across the bond. So for those students it's, you can talk about, but what I would recommend, because it is a lot of work is the students be a little bit more discerning with the choice of which countries they're going to apply to. So what I would say is that things that you should consider, firstly, it's kind of going to be like the the type of education that you're going to get, and that the US is famous for its liberal arts program. So if you're, if you're a student who maybe has a variety of interests, you know, you're a little bit interested in sciences, but you're kind of a literature geek as well. And you want the opportunity to explore both of those interests before really narrowing down on your path, the US is a great option, because of the liberal arts program, you get the flexibility to try a variety of different things. So if I have a student who's not entirely 100%, sure which direction they want to go, the US could be a great option for them to experiment a little bit more before sort of choosing the path on the same sort of theme here, Canada is really great for this as well, because they also have liberal arts programs. So if you if you don't want to pay the fees that the US has, or you're maybe put off by extensive extracurricular requirements, Canada could be a great option for you. And you still get the liberal arts experience for the UK, I would primarily recommend this to students who are really kind of academic and they know what their interests are. So as opposed to in the US, we've got this liberal arts kind of curriculum, you can do a variety of different courses. In the UK for most programs, you choose your course before you even apply. And you study that for three years. Yeah, occasionally, four, but usually the US or the UK is only three years. So you've got to be pretty certain that like, this is what you want to study, and you want to study only this thing. So if that's the case, you know, the US or the UK, sort of a fast track for you to really dive deep into your degree, become a specialist. That's what I did. You know, I wanted to study law, I didn't want to do it wait to do it as postgraduate degree in the US or Canada and the UK allied allowed me to dive right into my chosen career path. And so if you're interested in law, or medicine, or dentistry, or many of these professional programs that in the US and Canada are like postgraduate, you can do them right away in the UK, that's a huge advantage. Podcast Host 07:26 Yeah, I think it's a really good point that you make about going straight into something like law that you can do in the UK, which you can't do in the US. It's almost like with students, I think a lot of the time they view just the undergraduate experience. And that's as far as they're looking ahead at this stage. Do you ever kind of chat to students about thinking further ahead, whether they want to do post grad what that might look like? And if they were to study in the US, the post grad pathway might look like this? If they were to start in the UK? It might look like this? Or is that just way too far ahead to plan? Bryn 07:57 No, I think that's a super important question that students have to ask themselves, especially if they're interested in pursuing like a professional program. And they're deciding between the US and the UK, they have to say like, what kind of undergraduate experience do I want? Do I want to sort of get this like really rich intellectual experience, where I'm doing like many different things, and then eventually want to specialize? Or do I want to do that sort of right away. So it's important for them to have that idea. And if they, you know, even if they want to pursue this, like very professionally focused thing at the sort of undergraduate level in the UK, knowing that that doesn't necessarily determine what they have to do for the rest of their lives. You know, Case in point I studied law, and you know, worked in business working krimson. So if you if you want the flexibility and sort of our want to push your career decisions for graduate level sort of decision making us is great. But even if you decide to pursue them in undergrad at the UK, it doesn't determine what you do for the rest of your life. Podcast Host 08:56 For you personally, what went into the decision to go to LSE in particular, because you were mentioning that you were going to go to France potentially and then you ended up at LSE? Was there anything in particular that drew you to London, LSE is like right in the heart of London, was that part of the campus experience that you were looking for that went into that decision? Bryn 09:14 I left something out, I did took a gap year, and I moved, I moved to France and I got my romantic dream you're living in Paris and practicing French, but it was always my intention to go to university in an English speaking country. And so I actually applied to LSE I applied for a deferral for a year once I got my acceptance, went to France and had my phone and came back. And I chose LSE specifically because I love the social sciences and LSE offered this really unique opportunity to be surrounded like exclusively by students with very similar sort of research interests to me, you know, politics, government, international relations, sociology, philosophy, law, all of these things that I think are super interesting and LSE also gives you the opportunity through a course called the LSE 100 to like sample of like a couple of different other social science subjects. And so that was really cool. I got to take a couple sort of like intro sociology classes and intro politics classes. But it was mostly I chose LSE, because of this unique opportunity to be surrounded by other sort of social scientists at heart. Podcast Host 10:17 Yeah. Would you leave me to my next question? How much of this decision between the US and UK should be based on that kind of broad conceptual I want to study in this country versus this country? Or should it be more based on the university specifics like, you know, you got the opportunity at LSE to study around people who have the same interest. And obviously, that's a drawcard that not many other universities in the US could compete with at that same level that LSE could, I feel like a lot of students locked themselves in to like a mindset, or I'm going to study in the US, or I'm going to study in the UK. And then they start learning about these amazing programs at particular universities that might not be in the country that they originally intended to go to. But they've already mentally locked themselves into this pathway. And it can be difficult to change it, even if the carrot on the other side of the opportunity on the other side is really good. And they should probably take it. So what do you see is the balance there between like that country focus versus University specific offerings? Bryn 11:16 I think that's the, you know, the golden question that's there, I there's not really 100% perfect answer to this. And I think the best thing that you can do to sort of hedge your bets is just research a lot at the beginning. And you know, and this is really helpful. And this is I think, where Crimson comes in is that I do a lot of work with my students, helping them decide, you know, where what the best fit is for them, whether that's in the US or the UK, or whether that's a particular program at a specific school. So definitely doing as much research as you can. I think the first step is to like sort of what we said, you know, is, are you more interested in this sort of, like broad based liberal arts try a bunch of different things? Or do you really want to specialize, but even within that, like the UK offers a lot of really, really cool interdisciplinary courses that allow you to try like a couple different courses, the the most, maybe famous, being the politics, philosophy and economics at Oxford, their flagship course, you know, other ones are like human social political sciences at Cambridge, which is kind of a mix of like anthropology, international relations, etc, even Natural Sciences at Cambridge would allow you to do sort of, like all of the hard sciences, so biology, chemistry, physics, so you know, don't right off the UK, just because, oh, you maybe are interested in a more interdisciplinary course, there. Is that still within the UK? So yeah, you can't just say okay, no, I wanted to do ask because I can do liberal arts, you still have to take that next step, and do research into the specific institutions and programs because you might just find sort of the the perfect thing for you. But generally, it's a good sort of directional place to start of like, you know, what kind of education? Are you looking for interdisciplinary, or sort of more academically directional focused? Podcast Host 13:04 Yeah, well, it's a tricky one. And I know that, you know, your research depths probably go far beyond what a lot of other students and we could probably do another whole podcast on the topic of university research, which is something that I might hit you up for eventually. But let's chat about candidacy. Because I know a lot of students are saying, Okay, I'm, you know, a solid high school student I'm doing, you know, getting great grades, getting good extracurriculars under my belt, that kind of thing, where should they start positioning themselves for a particular country in terms of their profile and their application? And how do they know which one they're more likely to get into? Is there any way that you kind of hope students determine based on their profile where there might be a better fit for? Bryn 13:42 Excellent question? And actually, in reality, I should have answered your previous question by saying your extracurricular profile, which is a great sort of indication of which country you would be better fit. Yeah, because sort of exactly as you say, the University sort of requirements in the US and UK are different, they're looking for different types of people. The UK is looking for a scholar who has a very clearly defined area of academic interest, and has a lot of sort of research and, you know, experience within that narrowly defined sort of academic subject that they can showcase that university to prove like, you know, I am interested in biology, I have won national competitions in biology and research in biology on top of my biology class, and thus, you should let me into your biology but very focused, very focused, yeah. Whereas if you have a very focused, scholarly academic profile, probably the UK is a better direction for you to start looking into. Whereas the US they're looking for, you know, leaders, they're looking for people with, you know, a variety of different extracurriculars across, maybe some sports, some arts and community service, where they have shown like, you know, over time, a commitment to these things, as well as like Really big depth and impact. So if you are someone with like a variety of interests, and you know, you're kind of a go getter, and maybe you're on Student Council, and you founded some activities, and and you've got these, like, you know, yeah, founder level kind of things to showcase. Yeah. Last will love that. Whereas Unfortunately, the UK will be like, okay, that's fantastic. You've started this club, we don't really care that much, because you're applying to engineering and we want to know, like, have you done any research on engineering? Talk to us about Yeah, not your charity club. So and, but it's important to know that like, students don't often just have this naturally, you know, people don't have a track record of, you know, experience related to engineering right away. This is stuff that you have to intentionally cultivate. If you don't even feel like you're heading in either direction just yet. That's okay. You know, that's the work that you have to do. And that's where Crimson comes in, and helps a lot too, because we do a lot of that work with our students and help students who plan and create that, Podcast Host 15:59 Yeah, I love that, that it's an intention that you have to have, when you're trying to gear up towards this application process. I think some students feel as though it's kind of like gaming the system a little bit that they are working towards founding these organizations with a box ticking a little bit, they're like, Oh, well, I guess I got to do some volunteering, or, you know, do some volunteering, because that's what my application needs, etc. But really, as he said, like, it's that long term commitment. And beyond the six month stint in, in volunteering, you might be doing it over a two or three year period, on a, you know, probably less hours a week or less hours a month, even, but just as a longer kind of term impact project. So people can see that dedication. Right? Bryn 16:37 Exactly. And I, you know, I want to almost push back against all the people who are saying this is box ticking, and that I think that's a really cynical way to approach this process. In the first for example, extracurricular development for UK universities, some people might see it as, okay, you know, unbox taking and learning about the subject, but I really choose to see it as like, you know, listen, this is something you're going to be studying for three years at university, and you're probably going to be dedicating your career to afterwards, like, you got to make sure you really love this. So let's find something that you love, and that you're really passionate about. And let me help you explore this. And it should be a really interesting process. You know, for my students that are applying to UK universities, I'm helping them, you know, research essay competitions on topics they think are really cool, and they actually want to write about, and I'm helping them create reading lists for books, and like scholars and academics who, you know, they are excited to read about, and you know, a lot of their friends might think like, Oh, you know, you're kind of you being a nerd, and you're lame, and you're sort of reading on the stuff. And so you might be dissuaded from like picking up a book on something you think is interesting. And that's, that's what I think is cool, though Crimson is I'm here to say like, actually, no, like, you have an interest. And let's explore that. And, and that's a really cool opportunity. So for the UK, we focus a lot on, like, really digging into the passion behind the subject and allowing that to come out and explore that. And for the US, it's slightly different. Again, it's not a passion related to subject, it's a passion related to impact and problem solving. So again, you could be cynical and say, Okay, I'm gonna found a charity to, you know, tick a box. Or you could say, like, Listen, you've got, however many years four or five years in high school to where you got free time, you know, you don't have a job or anything yet, you can have an impact here, like you could really see problems in your community that align with your interests, and find ways to use your special talents and your unique abilities to to solve those problems and create impact. And, and so it could be box ticking, or it could be like, Listen, you're a smart, talented person, and you've got potential and let's how do we put that to work, and really help you accomplish great things. And all we're trying to do is channel that into an application. So the application secondary, initially, it's about, you know, how can we figure out ways to unlock your potential. Podcast Host 19:03 It's like building experience for a job, right? It's a similar kind of thing. You know, if you see your dream job, it has these kind of requirements along the way. And it's the same kind of thing as the application process that wanting to know that, when you apply, you're going to have these kind of a set of experiences instead of schools that will make your experience at the college or at the university. And even better one, where does Canada fit in all this? Bryn 19:25 So the reason I've sort of been quiet on Canada thus far is not because they don't have great universities or that's a great place to study. All of those things are true, but because just the the application process to Canadian universities is less competitive, less intensive in terms of the demands of your extracurricular preparation, etc. So Canada is it's a like a liberal arts style program, like I said, like the US, but you don't have to do any of the standardized testing and the extracurricular requirements are pretty relaxed. So it varies a lot depending on the school. That you're applying to, you know, unlike the US and UK, which have kind of common application style programs, Canada, the you know, the application varies a lot depending on what school you're applying to, and what province it's in. So like, I'll take, for example, the three most popular schools, so UBC University of Toronto, and McGill, all have entirely different applications. So you have to submit three applications for each. Starting with UBC, it's like the most holistic one, they've recently implemented this kind of application where you actually have to write many essays about your extracurricular activities, and they ask you some sort of like insight, prep questions, we've got to like, reveal a little bit about yourself, it's much less intensive than the US, you don't have to submit like an activities list with 10. programs, I think it's only five. And and just generally, it's much more about trying to understand you and less about tell us how you change the world. Yeah, the expectations are a little bit less. So maybe a bit of a better choice for people who aren't feeling so crazy competitive, like they want to go to the top us schools. In terms of the other Canadian schools, University of Toronto and McGill, very little extracurricular requirements, the guild actually has none, you just submit your grades. If your your grades are high enough, you can get in sort of University of Toronto, they will have for the most part, you don't have any extra curricular requirements. But some programs might have some essays and things like if they're sort of more competitive, but for the most part for u of t, and Miguel, very little extra curricular stuff, mostly great focused? Podcast Host 21:36 Well, when we are talking about grades, I'll just throw this curveball at you because it's been an issue that we've had to combat here in Australia, in that the national curriculum that Australian students generally set the a TA or VCA, HSE, etc, etc, depending on which state you're in. A lot of students don't know that they can use that to apply overseas, they say, well, it's a national curriculum, I can only use it to apply to Australian universities. And it kind of blows their mind a little bit when I'm like, Oh, actually, you can apply overseas like, it's just as accepted elsewhere, as it is here in Australia. So is there any benefit, though, to any particular curriculum, if you're applying to the US, UK or Canada? Or is it all fairly equal? Bryn 22:15 That is a curveball question. And I think you'd have to be like a proper admissions officer at your particular school to answer it with absolute certainty. Yeah, but I think my short list short answer is no, you can apply to anywhere in the world with any curriculum, and you should not feel like you're being held back. Because you feel like you don't have the right curriculum. I applied to the UK with a Canadian national curriculum, I help students from all over the world, and a variety of different curriculums apply to other countries. And it's, it's not a problem, it's more complicated than to translate your entry requirement, you know, whether your grades meet this kind of foreign systems entry requirements, and it's definitely more complicated. But it's, it's not like necessarily a disadvantage. You know, if you come from some countries with very remote and obscure education systems, you know, you might have a hard time getting those recognized. And some top universities I know, like, for example, Oxford and Cambridge, they actually don't accept applicants from some countries, because they don't actually deem that those, the education that you've received in those countries is equivalent to the UK. So a problem I have with some students is that the South African National Curriculum can't actually apply to Oxford, Cambridge, with the South African National Curriculum, you have to take like a levels or something. So that would be the only big obstacle is just confirming that the university is going to accept your curriculum, but for the most part, I think it's just Oxford and Cambridge that don't accept it, because they're a bit snooty. Podcast Host 23:39 And quite particular. Yes, Bryn 23:41 they're very particular. But for the most, I mean, always check with your universities. But really, aside from Oxford, and Cambridge, I haven't heard any other students having a problem. I just want to say IB and a level are by far the most common and accepted, you'll have the least problems applying with those, but you shouldn't feel held back. Podcast Host 23:57 Well, Brian, is there any final words of advice for students, if they're looking at the US, UK, Canada, they're interested in international study, but not quite sure where that might take them? What could their first step be to investigating this a little bit further and kind of helping them make a decision? Bryn 24:12 I think if you're at this point, and you're trying to decide which direction Am I going to go what's right for me, we talked a lot about, you know, the academic sort of programs and requirements and liberal arts versus focused, but I think also like taking a step back and really reflecting on like, what kind of university experience do you want? You know, do you want to be at a really sort of small close knit liberal arts school somewhere in California? Do you want to be in like the beautiful gilded halls of Oxford and Cambridge, you know, studying a subject you're really passionate about, like thinking kind of more holistically, just about the wider experience that you're going to get at university beyond the classroom. So not forgetting to think about things that aren't necessarily academic krimson has a super handy spread We've got 13 factors that you should look at when you're considering universities, you know, climate size, cost programs, all these different things. So we talked a lot about the academics, which I think are a super important thing. Yeah, making sure that you're considering every experience every part that's going through lived experience. Podcast Host 25:19 100% agree, I think it's fascinating. You know, in my time at crimson, I've come across students who are at universities now or have gone into universities in the past, and it's a university that they originally had never considered. And they get in and they love it, because it does meet a lot of those factors. It is the climate they're looking for it is the size they're looking for. It's rural or urban, or it's like has particular programs has particular professors has a different cultural vibe. So I you know, university research is such a tricky thing. And that's why I'm saying we could probably do a whole nother podcast on it, because even when I like took a group of students to the US on a college tour, we went to a lot of universities on the East Coast, a lot of universities on the west coast. And going in a lot of the kids said, Oh, Harvard. Yeah, I really want to go to Harvard like I'm so what visiting that kind of thing. And we visited all the universities. And at the end of the tour, their answers were completely different. Maybe one girl said, Yeah, you know, I'd still like to go to heart, but really, other girls were like, Oh, no, I felt like a real connection to brown or I felt a real connection to Yale, or I really love the experience at Columbia or UCLA or whatever it might have been like, we went to a lot of universities. And I think that's the the fascinating thing that you know that the vibe or the atmosphere can really be so hard to research because it's like this kind of intangible aspect of the university that you can only really get from talking to students or visiting campus yourself. Bryn 26:42 Actually, one thing, one positive thing to come out of this Coronavirus is that a lot of universities, especially in the UK are offering like virtual open days and tours and stuff, that might actually be a good way for you to ensure students to check out universities and take advantage of this pandemic. Because usually this these opportunities are not available to you from your home. But definitely, you know, think about the the cultural fit as well. You know, Europe is so different from the US, even the UK, the North versus the South. And I mean, I won't even get started about like all the differences between the US states, so, so making sure you're thinking about all of those things as well. Podcast Host 27:17 Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Brian, it's been awesome having you on for students who are interested in working with an amazing strategist like Brynn going to leave a link in the show notes there for a free one hour consultation with a lovely local academic advisor to kind of help you figure out your first steps. And if you want to be a crimson student and potentially get the chance to work with our French speaking Brazil, living Canada born, LSE graduate law student even kind of look like Ryan Gosling. I mean, I know it's a podcast, but I'm sure you've been told that before at some point, right. Bryn 27:48 I have been told that before. Yeah. Podcast Host 27:53 Take it as a compliment. You know, he Ryan Gosling's got some good props. So now if you want to have a chance to work with someone, like Bryn, for sure, fill out that form in the show notes. And we'll have someone reach out to you for that one hour consultation if you request that. So Brent, thank you so much for joining the college chats podcast, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Bryn 28:13 Awesome. Thank you so much. Podcast Host 28:15 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#33 How a 15 year-old Started a Revolutionary Global Organisation Using These 3 Steps

🗓 FEB 13, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:19 I'm your host Alex Cork and today I chat with the 15 year old founder of BZBUCK and California based student, Komal Vij. Komal started BZBUCK to teach a career oriented curriculum for students of all ages. The organization has now boomed with chapters around the world and nearly 10,000 students learning from his back. In this episode combo takes us through how she got started, the challenges she overcame, and the three steps to take so you can start your own organization. Let's chat with Komal Vij. Hi, Komal, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Komal Vij 00:56 Well, thank you so much for having me. My name is Komal Vij and I'm a sophomore at Mountain House High School in Mountain House, California. And I'm excited to be chatting here with you today, Alexander. Podcast Host 01:07 Yeah, absolutely. Well, sophomore, what does that mean in terms of age? Komal Vij 01:11 That means 10th grade. So I'm currently 15 years old. Podcast Host 01:13 And we're here to chat mainly about your work with BZBUCK, can you talk to that a little bit and what that's all about? Komal Vij 01:21 Right. So BZBUCK is my international organization that makes career and technical education accessible to students from all backgrounds from all locations. And so we have chapters around the world where we introduce the fields of entrepreneurship, marketing, finance, business, administration, and more. So we really do go into those skills that are crucial in life, right that many schools miss out on, and it's starting to get there. But yeah, I started this one, I realized that this was a real problem, right? Even though we're almost there, many, many schools still do not offer this to students. So that is where this idea sprouted from. Podcast Host 02:04 Yeah, like it's been a long standing issue in education, that there just isn't room to teach these kind of life skills. And it's great that this bag is addressing a lot of that. Can you talk me through I guess, what are some of the main you mentioned entrepreneurship, but as terms of like financial literacy, or what are some of the other main kind of goals of this bag to help kids with? Komal Vij 02:24 Absolutely. So we have several projects, which all kind of address specific things. If you look at, you know, the business world, it's a huge term, right? It could mean anything. So we actually allow students to kind of pick and choose what they want to learn specifically, say if a student wants to, you know, if they express interest in the entrepreneurship field, if they say that this is something I might want to do in my future, right, this is something I might, I may want to do. So in that we kind of offer everything that you would need to know, to be an entrepreneur. So like all the basics. So obviously, that would include things like marketing and finance, if you are an entrepreneur, you have to know all of that to be your own boss, you need to be able to manage everything. So we go into that. Some students also kind of choose to just go specifically in marketing, if maybe instead of starting their own business, they want to work, you know, a corporate job in marketing, or if somebody wants to go into finance, so we have different levels in all our fields. So like, especially in finance, a student can choose whether they just want to go for financial literacy, or if they actually want to reach the level where they can pursue a career. But mainly, we would look at the basic literacy levels, what is something you would genuinely like you what is something you would need to know, to pursue a career, you know, something where all the skills combined, puts you ready to just launch yourself in the workplace. So that's what we work on making accessible to students. Podcast Host 03:51 That's awesome. I mean, it sounds like that organization should already have existed, you know, so you're coming up through high school, and you're kind of seeing this gap. What was it that kind of generated that motivation for you to be like, hey, this organization that I thought should exist, something that addresses all these pain points, is not necessarily there. So what did you see in the education landscape that was attempting to address what you are now addressing, but wasn't quite there? Komal Vij 04:20 So as it all started with the same question that you just said, this should have been there a long time ago. Um, so I think, you know, when I started this, I could walk us through like a three pointer thing on how I started this organization, right? I started with, you know, one finding an issue, what is the what is the problem here? And so, I didn't start off saying, I want to start an organization. Let me think of something to start an organization with, I started with looking at this problem, and I was like, Oh, my God, this is a huge issue. And it's not just in a specific location. It's not just in a specific age group. It's, you know, very widespread issue. And so I think it started with that problem where I started to kind of look at the depth of the issue. I've heard people talk about, you know, schools don't touch on this enough, I've heard it. But this is when I, you know, kind of sparked my interest. And I think that is something that's very important, especially if high school students want to start their own initiative. If it doesn't really spark your interest, it's definitely not worth it. Because not going to want to work towards that goal. But so I saw this issue. And then the second step, you know, that I addressed was, does this exist, which most of the time, yes, something will exist to fix this issue. But I researched and I researched, and I researched and nothing quite like this existed. And yes, there are several organizations that touch upon it, like, you know, deca, fbla, Model UN, but they have restrictions in the sense that it's only offered to ages or grades, you know, nine through 12. And so that's when I was like, why isn't there anything setting a foundation earlier? Right? Why can't we really set that strong foundation earlier. So when we do reach high school, it's merely an extension so that students already know what they're doing. You know, obviously, the earlier you start, the better you will be at it right, the more comfortable you will be. So that's when I realized that there's nothing like this, this is something that I really want to do. This is something that I want to see happen. And so then again, the third step was, how will I get from point A, where we are right now to point B. So obviously, we have tons of problems in our world, and many of them we can't fix, right? So coming up with a problem is one thing, but actually coming up with a vision and being able to execute and coming up with a plan. I think that's definitely the most important part. So once I did the first two things, I came up with a plan, right? And not just a short term plan, I came up with a long term plan of if I want to do this, what are my resources? You know, what am I going to ask for help? What is the structure of how I'm going to help students? how, you know, what is the location boundaries? What are the age boundaries. So all of that is when I think when you build a very strong structure, it minimizes how many challenges you'll face in the future. So that is one of the things that I really would like to emphasize on, especially if any other high school students want to start their own initiative, follow these three steps. Podcast Host 07:22 I love it. That's so clear. And we'll definitely go into that third step more, because I know that's like a whole, you do a whole podcast in that third step, right. But what's the timeline like from that idea to where you are now, Komal Vij 07:34 so it's not something that happened overnight, obviously, especially when it's such a widespread goal. And it's, you have to pave your own path, right? It's not like, there's a preset instruction manual for you, or, you know, someone telling you what to do. This is something that was definitely challenging, because I'm trying to figure out how to reach my goal. But alone, right. And so this actually started a long time ago, when you think of the actual origin of it, where my this, you know, when it sparked my interest was a long time ago, I was probably seven or eight, when I first realized that it was a problem. So I was very young, obviously, you know, the actual organization and everything came later. But yeah, the actual origins was a while ago, and throughout the years, I've just been really exploring it, because instead of just, you know, taking action right away, I wanted to, I wanted to make sure that I know what I'm stepping into. And I wanted to make sure I understand the problem. So I have been looking at this issue for many, many years. And I'm lucky to have parents who are also, you know, heavily involved in the workplace, and who can also see the gap between this education and, you know, just throwing students into the workplace after high school or college. So I also got some exposure through there. But yeah, I've just been looking at this issue for a long time. And obviously, as I grew my understanding of the issue it you know, it got deeper and deeper. And so at one point, it reached or reached that depth where I understood that, okay, now I can do something, I have the resources to do something. And so that's when it started. But generally, I have been watching this for a long time, I didn't just wake up one day and say, Oh, I want to do this. Podcast Host 09:19 Really interesting. You had the idea when you were seven or eight. I mean, that's starting very, very early. But I guess when you do have that initial Spark, when you're that young, it does mature over the years, and it's fantastic that is now coming into fruition with this book, but I'm interested in there is two barriers that I think a lot of students have to starting an organization, one's knowledge, one's age, and it's just understanding like, Oh, you know, do I have the knowledge to do this organization? Or am I old enough to do an organization like this? Because I think a lot of people have that preconception that in order to start an organization, you need to be either an adult, at least need to be like 17 or 18 in the final years of school so you can have that quote unquote leadership role, whatever it might be, but what was your kind of approach to this? Did you feel any of those barriers, as you started to turn this idea into an organization or did none of those barriers really come up for you Komal Vij 10:11 100% age has been something that often feels like a very strong fence right in front of you something that restricts you, and I think a lot of the time, people don't see the potential, you know, beyond just that number. And so that is definitely something that I, you know, this is something that I was genuinely interested in, this is something that I wanted to change. But looking at my age, a lot of people were like, you know, how are you going to do that? So it's definitely not been a piece of cake to just get out there and say, you know, I'm young, but I'll do it, right, I think a piece of advice, I would say, is just thinking about it isn't going to do it. If you are genuinely interested in something, and you have an idea of how you want to put it into action, do it, I think you should do it. And maybe you know, maybe the application doesn't quite match what you were thinking, I think whatever you can get your hands on whatever exposure, do it right. So if you're interested in a specific topic, maybe find a professor at a local university who is researching that, or, you know, however small, however big maybe sit in on a corporate meeting, and you know, they might be discussing something you're interested in. So I think it all starts with the willingness to put your foot out there. And just begin, right, if you keep thinking that I don't know how to do this, I want to make a huge organization, I want it to be, you know, international, I want to reach this many people, those are setting goals before you even kind of put your foot out the door. Right? So I think that is definitely one thing I did. It was just this is something I want to do. And I'm just I'm going to start. And so this organization wasn't even meant to be an organization. I didn't think you know, oh, I want to start an organization, what will it be? This started as something I wanted to do. And I said, You know what, I'm not really sure how to do it yet, but at least I can do it in my community. And so people you know, I met every day or younger students in our elementary schools, I started locally, I said, if I can make a difference locally, that's still a difference that's better than sitting in my room and dreaming about a huge organization. And I think that's a pattern that I've seen in many successful student led organization, or many organizations in general, that the person who is interested in making a change or making an impact, they kind of they begin one day, right? And so you can't I don't think you can ever reach what you're dreaming of until you actually start. So that would be one piece of advice that obviously that that I dealt with. But in terms of age, again, a lot of our boundaries are self set, right? So before, even if people weren't telling me, oh, you're too young, I would feel that sometimes I would be like, Oh, I'm too young, maybe I can't do this, maybe I can't do that. I think that is something that maybe if other people are setting restrictions on you, you can't change that. But you can change the restrictions that you're setting on yourself. So I think the most important thing is looking at your resources, looking at the situation you're in and making the best possible thing out of it. Right. So that's what I would say, Podcast Host 13:20 awesome. Well, I love that idea of taking that first step. And I'd like you to take us back to when you took that first step. Was it like creating a flyer? Or was it create, you know, telling a teacher like, Hey, I would love to teach an after school class? Or was it kind of talking to your friends and saying, Hey, you know, who would be interested in this kind of thing? Like, what was your very first step from turning it into action? Komal Vij 13:44 I think my first step was when I came up with a mock lesson. And I went to the principal of a local elementary school, I set up a meeting with her and I said that here, this is something that I've come up with. And I want to know if you'd be interested in incorporating this into, you know, the lessons for some of the younger students. And they actually have this thing called genius hour where every week they have, you know, a maybe like an hour where they devote time to investing in their futures. So other than just the core subjects, what is something you're interested in and kind of developing the interest? So what I came to offer to her was, this is something that I think some students would be interested in. And that was my first step. And obviously, that that is kind of a huge step, right? It's more than just starting a little flyer, you know, something else, but I just I started right, I took that step. And I was like, this is something I have, what are your thoughts? And I didn't show up genuinely knowing that I had the best lesson plan or anything. I just, you know, I generally came to her and I said that this is what I have. What do you think, what are your thoughts? Is this horrible, right? So I had that meeting with her and she was blown away. She loved it, and she Incorporated. So ever since then, the local elementary schools, they've been using our lesson plans. And I think that's when it started. And so again, I didn't mean for any of this to get this big, it started, people loved it parents loved the exposure that their students were getting students, you know, devoted students loved it, they were like, I, you know, I want to keep doing this. I think a lot of students have so much potential, but sometimes they don't have the opportunities to express them, right. They're too busy in their daily schedules and their school and their sports, where they don't, they don't even have the opportunity to maybe some of them don't even know what they can do. Right. So I know one time I met a student, and they were like, I didn't know I could do this. But now I know, I know. So I think giving that opportunity. I saw students, I saw that light bulb, right, I saw that light bulb light up in students. And I was like, Wow, this is awesome. And then from there, it kind of spread like rapid fire. Podcast Host 15:56 Yeah. So that first meeting with a principal, I mean, amazing that the principal said yes. and was like, what, you're probably 14 at the time or something like that. Komal Vij 16:06 Yes. 14. Podcast Host 16:07 Yeah, yes, you afford any of the time I commend the principal for taking that meeting. I know, obviously, you've asked him for that meeting. But sometimes, like in those early days, it's easy for people who have been in education for a number of years, or have kind of that authority in a way to say no, it's easy to kind of decline the meeting or be like, hey, look, it's a good attempt. But, you know, we'll pass the stage because they don't want to be the guinea pig necessarily. But you know, the school put themselves forward and they became the guinea pig. So for any students out there, like, if you go to a different organization, and I always say to students, like a great place to start is other schools, because there's one thing students know, it's schools, it might be their own school, or might be nearby schools, and might be schools that you have your brothers or sisters in, or primary schools, whatever it might be, but start with schools, because they're always a good place for students to start in. And the principal gave you the nod of approval, you've put that first class together. And then I'm going to guess you started thinking, Okay, what else do we want to teach in BZBUCK? And how do I actually start acquiring the knowledge to be able to teach this, you know, to get to a stage that is of particular standard that we're proud of that the students recognizes? Hi, that educators recognizes high that the parents recognize as a good level of education. So you must have been like going through a lot of different resources and trying to acquire all of this lesson plans and all these different things to try and make it a an actual teaching organization. What was that process? Like? Komal Vij 17:34 So yeah, it was definitely ironic at first because it's like, I'm no expert, right? All I'm trying to do is reach, you know, fill this gap reach that goal. So it was ironic in the sense that, okay, I'm teaching people a couple years younger than me everything they need to know about life. Right? So in that sense, it was kind of funny. But when I talk to the principal, I didn't even know she was going to say, Yes, I thought she was likely saying no, um, but when that happened, I kind of thought, okay, if I want to move forward with this, I have to look at how I'm going to move forward with this, right, putting it in a, you know, making an impact in my local community is a different thing. But if I'm spreading it, I have to know what I'm doing. Right, I have to have that knowledge. And I have to know what resources that I'm acquiring all this information from. So that was definitely something that I really had to something I had to, you know, focus on. But ultimately, it came down to looking at teachers who are CTE certified, meaning they are actually certified to teach career and technical education. So that it started at our school, but then it spread to the entire CT network of teachers. So teachers around the nation who are helping come up with these, you know, who have actually learned this or mastered this in college, right. And then also, I'm also earning two associate's degrees in our local college here. And so I worked with some of the professors who also saw potential in this plan, and they, you know, wanted to contribute. And so they also looked at it. And first of all, they're not very experienced in teaching children that young, their professors, but I think the way that they put together the information and the resources that they gave me, that they would normally give to students in their college classes, I took everything that I could find, I've gone to like the deep, deep end of the internet trying to find the most information. And so I've squeezed the information out of every resource I could possibly find, and put it together in a way that's fun, that's entertaining, and that's informational for the students. But that process definitely wasn't easy. Again, having a plan and you know, a vision is one thing, but executing that is a completely different thing. So that was one thing that I think would set apart students who have successful initiatives and students who have just kind of started it but never really finished it. So that work in the middle, the logistics and all of that, that is extremely important. And I think critical, like planning on that end is very important. It could make or break an initiative. Podcast Host 20:13 Yeah. Well, I know there's probably a lot of students listening to this podcast thinking that sounds like a tire job. And how does school fit in with all of this? So you said you're going to associate degrees at a local college as well. A lot of the time when I've asked for feedback about the podcast, students say, the organization's and the extracurriculars sad, awesome. But how do students make this work alongside like, normal school? So what's that been like for you in that bouncing app? Komal Vij 20:42 It's not been easy, I think, because I'm also very devoted to my own education as much as I also want to make education accessible to other students. And that's why I think if this wasn't a cause that I genuinely was very interested in, it will be very hard, which is I don't know how some students kind of come up with a cause that, you know, they're not even that interested in and then they move forward with it. I don't even know how they do that. Because if so, if you genuinely liked something, it doesn't feel like you're working, right. We know that cliche. But I think it can definitely get overwhelming, especially if you have lots of advanced classes, extracurriculars, all that stuff. But I think ultimately comes down to the willingness to fit it into your schedule, right? If you're doing it, for the sake of it just to be a founder, it's not going to be easy. I think one of the one of the reasons that I've been able to do it is because I actually like doing this, right, this is what I would do in my free time, I like filling this gap and making this impact. But it comes down to time management and priorities and how you rearrange everything in your in your time to really be able to meet all of these goals. So also, one thing I would say is make sure you know what you're doing, you know what you're signing up for before you actually sign up. Because that can also lead to like burnout, it can lead to, you know, reaching nowhere and in your school and your extracurriculars. So it's definitely important to think about how much you're taking on and whether you can actually meet those goals. So yeah, before I took this on, if I just blindly signed up, I don't think I would have been able to make this impact along with school and everything else. But I think I the way I planned it, I knew what I was doing. And I just I carefully looked at my time management along the way. And I think that's the only reason that I was I've been able to juggle everything at the same time. Podcast Host 22:37 Yeah, well, I love the idea that you planned, as you said earlier, you have a long term plan for this is not just like a short term starting organization, it's like starting organization, but then try and project forward two or three years, you know, how might it grow? What might it be on my side in terms of work? And how much time would it take for me to make this organization reach its potential? Have you bought any other students in though, to help with the workload at all? Is there any other like staff helping with this bug? Komal Vij 23:07 Essentially, it's me running the international organization. But yes, so we do have students who are also extremely committed to this cause. And so they're helping out in their own chapter. So every chapter that we have, has its own little team where they run like the operation, the local operations. So in that time, then we have like some outreach directors or some people to do help with the workload. And I think, you know, it's, it's really cool, because students who are really good at what they do, right, like a very niche job, they do that full time. So if you look at starting an organization, right, it's like you're an entrepreneur, you're doing everything right at the beginning, you have to fill, you have to wear every cap, you have to complete every role. But I think once you start getting teams, it's interesting, because you can see people who are really good at that one thing they do, and then that entire team coming together where everybody's good at what they do. And that way, it's really, it's really beneficial to the organization, because that way, you know, it helps it helps with the workload to but yeah, I think that way, it's also easier to get other students involved. So I think that's where it branched from work with other students. So I went around trying to find students who also really wanted to do this, or students who also really wanted to do this and had some skill that they can also contribute to. And so it started from there. And now you know, we have teams who help with all kinds of things. And so that's how we're able to manage everything. If I was still doing everything alone. I have no idea how I would be able to do it. Podcast Host 24:45 Yeah, well, I've got so many questions for you based off all these things. I'm like, I'm trying to remember all the questions that keep coming up as you chat. But it's really interesting to look at what your typical tasks were when you first started the organization like what was a week in the life of a founder of BZBUCK in those first couple of weeks, versus what your typical roles are, and tasks today. So I'm going to guess like in those early stages, you were probably delivering the classes or writing the curriculum, that kind of thing. But now you're probably more managing the teams and the distribution of the curriculum. Is that about right or am I completely wrong on that? Komal Vij 25:23 That's my right. Yeah. So. So when it started, it wasn't even an official organization. It was just a little club that I read in my head. And I was like, Okay, I want to do this. And so I was doing everything right, I was pitching it to all these teachers, the principal's I was writing the curriculum, I was coming up with a plan. And again, if you don't have a long term plan, it's just all going to, you know, you're gonna face so many challenges and everything. So I was doing everything. And I think that year, that few months, that was a lot, that was overwhelming, because I was like, My hands were on everything. And so at this point, like later, we got students involved. But at the beginning, those students didn't even know what this book was at the time, right? I just created it, it was just a vision in my head, I didn't even know how to execute it. So that did take a lot of work to get it to the point where other students are hearing about it. And they're like, Oh, I want to join, right? spreading it, just to that point is not easy. So I wasn't everything at the beginning. But then slowly, we got students who, you know, reached out and said, I want to help with this, you know, I like this. And so now, I'm still doing a good amount of work, because I don't, I don't want to dump anything on everyone. So anyone who is contributing to the organization, it's like, as a hobby, this is something they actually want to do, I didn't want to really get anyone involved to just, you know, if they were just doing it for the sake of it, or if they were just doing it for a title or if they were just doing it for their resume, wanted to get people involved who actually liked it. Like if they took an hour out every week, for their free time. If this is what they wanted to do, then I would be like, yes, you know, I would love to have you involved. And so that that's where it started. And then it's less than it was, but sometimes I have to try and keep my own head out of it. Because I again, I really like this cause, right? So I get lost in it myself, trying to grow the organization and reach because, you know, regardless of how big we are, right now, there are still schools out there. And there's still students out there who don't have access to us yet. Right. And so once you get a little taste of that, of that, you know, spread and of the impact you're making, it's really hard to stop. Right? So that yeah, that's but the growth has just been amazing. And the people who have helped out and contributed also are extremely and genuinely passionate, which is why I think it's grown so much to the point that it is today, Podcast Host 27:48 How many schools or students do you think his back has been in contact with since you first started the organization. Komal Vij 27:55 So in terms of like grades, it's a wide range. So right now we're catering to kindergarten through 12th. And so in that range, I would say, around 8000 9000, just in the US. But yeah, it's a it's a good amount of students just within the US, and we're growing a lot every single day. So like every single week, we have a new chapter starting and we have new sub chapters starting. And once we've, you know, kind of established a chapter at a specific school, it grows into other clubs. So like, say BZBUCK, at a specific school, would also start being connected with other clubs at that school. And so then it just kind of grows from there. So like the baseball club at one school might partner with the deca club at the same school, and it just keeps reaching more and more and more students. And so in that sense, it's it's really it's growing faster every every day. Podcast Host 28:50 Yeah, that's fantastic. So generally speaking, though, the chapters, they are teaching students within a club format, so kind of like lunchtime meetings, or are they actually going into classrooms? Or are they actually delivering content through the CTE teachers? Like what's the general structure? Because I think it's fascinating, right? You start the organization after having a meeting with a principal with a lesson plan in your hand type of thing. And then the idea of like starting chapters and doing these kinds of things, that that sounds like very official, very formal. And it's just interesting to kind of understand from your side, how you manage that growth and what you were advising students to do. So I'm going to guess like there was a student from a different school being like, Hey, this is backlinks. Sounds great. I'd like to start it in my school. What do I do next other thing? I what would your advice be to students in that situation? And how did you manage that growth in a way that was both sustainable and kind of stay true to the original model or the original teachings that you thought would work best for students? Komal Vij 29:50 Right, so I think the structure that I came up with shortly after I started executing my plan, this structure was the most efficient way to make sure That, you know, all the, or all the little groups of students because at the beginning students were just reaching out from all over us and all at once on social media. And, you know, I looked at I was like how I manage this, because at the beginning, it was like, Okay, one person from Arizona, one person from Australia, one person from India, right. So how I manage this, you know, they're different time zones, and there's different schools, there's different standards, all of that. And so that's when I got the idea of making, you know, these little groups that are like chapters. And so that way, the official organization has processes in place where, you know, you can officially sign up to start a chapter and someone will get back to you and say, you know, let's move forward with this, you know, how do you want to start at your school? Do you want it to? Do you want to start as a chapter, do you want to start it as a club? Again, is it like a lunchtime meeting thing. So our main goal is to make this education accessible. So that's why we've not set too many restrictions on how we're catering this education. Because obviously, once things go international, things get very different, right. So that's when this entire structure started. And that's when we start came up with these processes that okay, you know, every week, the official organization is going to send over this lesson plan to you, and your team needs to come up with an interactive activity to implement after the lesson, we give the original lesson, but then we let the chapter put their own little spin on it, or their own little touch to it. So that way does stay true to the official organization. And we do have restrictions in place. Like all you can't change everything. But we do also allow them to, you know, put their own spins on it. And then some things like events or webinars, some things that we have are just organization wide, where everybody from every chapter can join. So that way, there's also a sense of unity, but they're also able to shine in their own individual chapters. Podcast Host 31:54 I love that. So you're giving some kind of chance for leadership for each chapter leader, I guess, in saying that, you can put your own spin on this lesson plan and make it your own. So that's really cool. And so you basically have to write out these processes, and then put a sign up form and, and all these kinds of logistics that you had to put together pretty early on, right? As soon as people start catching on that this was something that they would be interested in doing in their school, you're like, Okay, just give me a sec, I'm just gonna write this in, you know, like, how to guide or setting up bids back in your school type of thing with a chapter or a club. And so yeah, that that's really interesting. And how do the teachers get involved in these back? What's their role in this, because I think that's like a really critical part of a organization growing through schools student buy in is fantastic. And I don't deny that that's like a critical ingredient. But having teacher buy in is even a little bit better, because teachers are most likely going to be there longer term than most students. So what's their role in this whole process? Komal Vij 32:53 So yeah, so as you said, there are you know, routes that are most likely to stay longer than students, especially if they're in their later years of high school. And so those include actual workplace professionals who contribute to organization and teachers. So usually how it goes is students reach out saying they're very interested, you know, they follow the process to start their own chapter. And then we require having some sort of adult advisor, right, so like some teacher with credentials to supervise, right, all the operations that are going on in the local chapter. And so obviously, we try not to put too much work on the advisors, but you know, there to oversee everything that's going on, and to look at the curriculum and things like that. And so obviously, that they're like, you know, the main anchor of the chapter, so that if all the, you know, the students who are in the leadership roles, if they all graduate, there's still a teacher who can make sure that younger students can start to fill those roles. And so, in terms of that, we also do have a legacy concept, where once a student, you know, is old enough to graduate. And if they did hold a leadership status at their BZBUCK chapter, then they would pass on the legacy to somebody younger, or somebody they've been training or somebody that has been, you know, shadowing them for the past few years. And so this is something that other organizations like DECA also follow. But that's also something we do to ensure that the younger students who are learning when they reach that stage, then they become the leaders. And so it's like, a beautiful, ongoing wave of learning to leadership, right. And so that that is something that we can actually measure the growth and we can see immense growth, right, if we see a freshman who came into this club, thinking it was interesting, and then they end up graduating as the president of the BZBUCK club, that shows how much that they were able to grow throughout. So it's an ongoing cycle of, you know, learning and then teaching what you've learned, and then those people grow up and they teach what they've learned. And so that's how we ensure that this is not just going to be like a long one. Time thing once everyone graduates, you know, oh, there's no one there. So that's that's how we keep that in check. Podcast Host 35:06 I think it's such a good idea to ensure the continual growth and the continual importance of the club within the school is to have the adult supervision, the, you know, CTE teacher there. And one thing that I think is really important for students if they're wanting to do this, and something that I think you picked up on, is the idea that you don't want to overburden teachers, you know, a lot of teachers are already very busy. So you put them kind of in a mentorship kind of role. But it is related to their role as well. Like, they would want to say students interested in the thing that they're teaching. So students out there wanting to start a math club or wanting to start a book club or wanting to start any kind of club or organization, getting teacher buy in is great, but it's got to be teacher buy in that number one shows the teacher that this could make their job that little bit easier, and that it would have students be more passionate about the subject that the teacher teaches, right? So it's like a win win for the teacher, really, they've got passionate students, and they've got a club that has been bought in, they don't necessarily need to start it, it just kind of is already they have the structures already there. They just need to support it and mentor it. I think that's very, very clever. Did you have any buy in or initially like advice from CT teachers about creating that structure? Or did you just come up with that on your own? Komal Vij 36:25 Oh, I think it was the other way around. So I came up with the idea. And I then I got CT teacher buy in, and I was like, Okay, I got confirmation that this is a good idea. And so obviously, right, when I looked at this situation, um, you know, our organization goal is heavily, you know, we heavily emphasize making this education accessible to students. But then we also have to think about how much load we're putting on the teachers and how much, you know, tasks, were really filling up the to do list. So that's not our intention at all. And so when we look at that, we tried to set it up in a way that it's also benefiting the teachers and their classrooms. So I can give you an example, one of our chapters Recently, there is a marketing teacher. And so a couple of their marketing students reached out to bespoke wanting to start their own chapter, since they're taking a marketing class in their school. That's something they wanted to focus on in the bespoke curriculum. And so when the teacher found out that there's, you know, an external curriculum coming in, and the students have chosen to do that, they've chosen to put their time and effort into this, and teach even younger students, the teacher commented on that thing that students that they might teach years ahead of time are already being taught right now. So it's not only the fact that their current students are passionate, it's the students that they may get into three, four years, who are, you know, starting to learn about it now. So by the time they reach the classroom, they're ready to go, right. They're passionate, they're interested in this field. And most of all, they have a solid foundation. And so now is not the time to you know, in high school is not the time to set that foundation. It's the time where you kind of put your final touches or your last extensions, and then we go into the workplace. So that that is how we set it up. And so far, it's worked really well, Podcast Host 38:10 that's awesome. Well, I'm interested as well as to how many fires you have to put out in any given week or month or what those kind of fires might be, because as an organization grows, and as you as like the head of the organization, I'm sure the buck stops with you, as they say, or the buck stops with you in this case. So I'm going to guess there's some instances where, you know, there might be a conflict between student or teacher or there might be a leadership kind of issue where there's a, you know, a student leader, but they're not doing the work that they should be doing, or whatever it might be. Yeah, what kind of typical fires? Or what kind of typical issues are you dealing with that, you know, might not necessarily be the glamorous side of being the founder of an organization? Komal Vij 38:52 Right? So it happens, right? It happens with any initiative and your organization. And actually, I think that these fires are very, very crucial to the growth of the organization, because they kind of raised these issues in the structure or in the processes of the organization that you would have never even thought of before. And so every time you put out a fire, you know, you can ensure that that fire will never rise again. Right. And so I think that they're very important, but some of the typical things that we have to think about are, you know, some high school students sign up without the genuine willingness to put in the work or the genuine passion for this cause. And so I think the way that we've dealt with that is come up with like a way to find students who actually want to contribute, because there are many, many students out there. And I realized that it's not the lack of students out there. It's just the way that I'm finding these students, right, or the way that we are pushing. Like, who are we pushing this book out to right, who are we really advertising it to? Who are we putting it out there to and so I think that was extremely important because we don't want To be putting this organization out to students who don't really care about it right, or just kind of want to do it for the sake of it. So we found a way to get it in the hands of students who are interested in it. And so in that way, it was the most beneficial to both the organization and organization's mission. Because obviously, when people are genuinely passionate, genuinely interested in what they're doing, they're probably going to do a much, much better job. Right. So I think that that's where it started off. And yeah, usually we don't hit too many. I would like to say I did a good job in planning. We don't have too many conflicts like that. But yeah, one of the biggest ones would be, do they really like what they're doing? Or are they just doing it for the sake of it? Podcast Host 40:50 Yeah, just doing it for resume padding. As you said earlier, I think it's very common theme that student organizations need to be prepared to, I guess, have that tough conversation with some students and be like, hey, look, you know, you've been in the organization for a little while now. And it's great, you got the title, but it does come with work. And if you're not prepared to put in that work, there's other people who are prepared to put in that work. Do you kind of like force people out and say, Hey, you kind of need to step down? Or, you know, what does that conversation look like? Komal Vij 41:18 So it's not forcing people out? Usually, I think we've been I don't know if it's our amazing student leaders, or if we've just been lucky with this. But usually, what we try to do is just bring the situation, you know, surface up, what a lot of organizations do is kind of try and ignore the fact and kind of be like, hey, you need to, you know, get the work done. They kind of ignore the reality that, okay, there's some work and you're not doing the work that you should be doing. And I think that if they joined, they joined for a reason, even if it's not the most ideal reason that, you know, even if it's for resume padding, they could have chosen another place for resume padding, right. So even if they chose this place, there has to be some reason no matter how little there has to be some reason they chose this place. Right? And so I think what genuinely like generally, what I would try to do is bring out that reason, no matter how tiny Why did you join Facebook, right? And what what were you looking for when you join Facebook? And I think when you have that genuine conversation, it usually ends in a really good way. And the person kind of they understand they realize in themselves like, Oh, you know, I actually I did try this for a reason, I think I, I think I should put in more work or so we don't just say like, hey, you're not doing your work, you know, that's not how it generally would go. But I think it's surfacing reality the most, that brings out the passion, even if they didn't know they had it, right. And so every student leader finds that one little thing that they like, so for me, it was seeing that light bulb light up, and every student when they understood that I'm investing in my future right now, right, and this is something that I like doing. And so for another student leader, it might be something else. And so what we try to do is, let them find their Spark, what makes them really want to contribute to this cause. Now, some people may not want to at all, no matter how hard we try, but often, you know, it does work where if you find the genuine interest, they'll do the best work possible. Podcast Host 43:20 Well, that's good leadership, then if you're seeing that issue, where someone's not really doing the work, and instead of, as you say, just pushing them out, you kind of say, hey, look up for a reason. Let's find that reason, because it's there somewhere. We just got to find it. Yeah, that's, that's really good. How do you go about finding student leaders, you did mention earlier that you were kind of running around finding students. And then some students were finding you on socials as well, I'm going to guess that was primarily Instagram. And you're also on LinkedIn and have a great presence there, too. But what have you found as the the kind of biggest factor in finding students, or the biggest way that you've been finding students to join us Komal Vij 43:55 back? So I think it was more looking through the students that are interested rather than me, you know, going to the students. Again, I didn't expect it to be this big, right? I started as a little community thing, and it really grew. So I never, you know, luckily, I never actually had to face that fact, where I'm running around for students. It was tons of students coming to us super interested in this. And you know, obviously, not everybody can have a leadership position, you have to do some screening. And I think it was that where we put in the algorithm of pay, who is really good at what they do and who genuinely wants to help our cause and things like that. But definitely, that's definitely where it started. And social media, obviously, yes. So Instagram, that has also been one of our primary channels for students to get to know us and word of mouth is also huge. As I said, when we establish a chapter somewhere, you know, if the teacher gets involved, the teacher might walk into a staff room and tell the other teacher and then that teacher will tell someone else all over the phone that night or something like that. And so you'd be surprised when something revolutionary like this, that should have been there a long time ago comes up, people start talking about it right. And it really does spread, especially when literally everyone can contribute to this cause whether it's students who are coming to learn older students who are ready to teach workplace professionals who are really ready to give that advice, or teachers who are ready to supervise everything, everyone can have some say or have some, you know, role in contributing to this. And I'm pretty sure that's why it's spread so rapidly. So it's not like I put, you know, extra effort or anything to make it spread, it just kind of took off on its own. Podcast Host 45:43 Yeah, absolutely. What have been some of the more unexpected things that have come up as a result of starting BZBUCK, or some of the unexpected lessons that you've had to learn as a result of starting BZBUCK? Komal Vij 45:55 It happens with everything right? If there's an organization where the founder doesn't run into a bump, then I would be concerned, right, that doesn't happen often. So yeah, it's definitely happened. And I think one of those things would probably be sticking with something as much as you can. So like, the commitment when I went into this, I didn't know it would be as hard to be this young and pursue something like this, right. And that's not only saying that I you know, the workload or anything like that, but it's also saying, you know, how do people look at that number of your age, and just automatically think of some potential associated with it. So that is something that I've definitely struggled with, where I felt like, you know, when people look at me, they just see like a big age here, they just see my age, right. And that's when it came to sometimes where, you know, there might have been an awesome resource, but maybe they didn't see the potential BZBUCK had back then. And so maybe I couldn't use that. And maybe that put up some restrictions or put up some fences. But so age has definitely been one thing that you kind of have to keep pushing, right, you have to show and now, we've had people who said no way back when, who knows, see what this book is, and they're like, Oh, we were wrong, sorry. You know, we'd love to be a part of it. But yeah, in terms of that, you'll definitely run into roadblocks, no matter how much you plan, or you have a good structure. But my piece of advice would be, again, if you genuinely like this, no matter what you run into, you will be able to get through it, if you like it, you will find a way around it, you will find a way over it. And I think again, one other thing that I had to deal with was the workload, it was a lot of work. And this is not something that I was doing with other group of students. This is something that I started completely on my own right, with no adult support, either. This is something that I just I did. And so it the workload was also quite overwhelming, you know, with my classes and my extracurriculars. But there was tons of lessons that I was able to learn through this. That's primarily from the exposure to everything. So just like I said, a while back, putting my foot out there things that I would have never even tried. If it weren't for this book, I think I learned so so much that I will be able to use in the future. So you know, once you get that exposure, I did things that I never would have even thought of. So I think that has been an amazing experience. Podcast Host 48:22 Yeah, well, obviously, you you're going out there and teaching eight to 9000 students. So that sounds like a pretty impressive thing that you never thought you would really be able to do, that you are now doing. And it's obviously growing very quickly as well. What's next for this buck? I mean, I know that obviously, you're expanding internationally, and you're running webinars and doing all kinds of cool things. And you're setting this all up at a time where no COVID is happening. So I think is back the potential to grow is even more when hopefully, students start coming back to school in greater numbers around the world. What do you hope to achieve with this back in the next 12 to 24 months, Komal Vij 48:56 right, so the next steps are expanding, but with different perspective. So obviously COVID-19 pandemic change tons of things, right, especially when we came up with like, the whole chapter concept where they would mean their classrooms or their schools, all of that kind of change, right, and also how we're reaching other students that also kind of change. And so now the next steps are approaching our main goal and our mission from different perspectives. So there's tons of new projects that Facebook has in store that we are going to be employing very soon. And this time, it's going to be more of unifying all the chapters. So since we can all be virtual now, I think it's an amazing learning opportunity to learn from or you know, collaborate with someone your age that's across the nation, or that's across the world. So we're working on come up with the most creative ways, the most entertaining ways to get students excited about this and genuinely passion to get involved. Podcast Host 49:58 Yeah, I think it's super exciting. If students wanted to either follow BZBUCK or get in contact with you, or are interested potentially, in starting a chapter at their own school, how would they best go about that? Komal Vij 50:10 So our main point of contact would be the website, which is Bzbuck.com. So facebook.com is our main point of contact, it has everything from how to contact us and how to start a chapter and you know, everything like that. You can also follow on our Instagram, where we have more recent updates of what's going on in the organization. So those are probably the best ways to get in touch. Podcast Host 50:33 I'll put them both in the show notes as well. And if they want to get in contact with you or follow your story, what would be the best way to do that? Yeah, you Komal Vij 50:40 You can either find me on LinkedIn, or you can go on my Instagram handle as well, which is basically my name. Podcast Host 50:49 Yeah. We'll add all those in the show notes. And yeah, it's been fantastic having you on before you go, though, do you have any last bits of advice? You've been so full of wisdom for this whole podcast episode? I know you were you said you squeezed the resources or squeeze the internet wisdom. So I'm going to ask you before you go, is there any more wisdom that you would have for students, if they're wanting to start something of their own of this kind of magnitude? What would be some of the lessons that you would want to give students before we head off? Komal Vij 51:17 So the last things I would say is, if you genuinely have something that interests you like a niche problem, or something that not many organizations or individuals have done, go for it, you know, don't be intimidated by the fact that no one's done it, it might be because it's a very scary problem, because it's hard to solve. But you know, even if nobody else has done it, do it, because that's just even more incentive to do it, because no one's done it before. And so that and if it already does exist, I would say instead of starting your own thing, for the sake of it, or to have that title, join that large organization, you'll probably make more impact. So if you generally like something look for where you'll make more impact, whether it's starting your own, or joining a larger organization, so don't just do it for the sake of it, because you don't actually want to do it. It's a lot of work. So make sure that you know what you're signing up for, and you genuinely do want to pursue this. But other than that, I've had a lot of fun chatting here with you today, Alexander. And I think that top of the top of the class podcast is an amazing opportunity. And I think it's amazing how students who have already you know, done it can talk to students who want to do even more. Podcast Host 52:30 I know this episode has been fantastic in terms of actually getting down into the details of like, what it looks like to start an organization like this, you know, writing out the processes of how students can start their own chapters, engaging teachers, you know, and just like the starting point of giving a lesson plan to a local principle, and how you turn that idea into reality. I think it's been super inspiring. So thank you, Komal, for sharing all of your insights. And I hope students do take advantage of the links in the show notes as well, and get in contact with you and perhaps even start their own chapter is back wherever they might be from around the world.

Ep#2 College Tips - Oxbridge Interview Insights with Former Oxford Admissions Officer, Hannah Rowberry

#2 Oxbridge Interview Insights with Former Oxford AO, Hannah Rowberry

🗓 FEB 10, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Chats and new series of the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and today I chat with Crimson Education strategist, former Oxford interviewer and Cambridge alumni, Hannah Rowberry. Hannah shares her insights into the all important Oxbridge interviews, her advice for students to prepare, and some funny stories that have come from the high pressure interview environment. Let's chat with Hannah Rowberry. Hannah, welcome to College Chats is awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Hannah Rowberry 00:47 Thank you very much. It's great to be here. So yes, I used to be a student at University of Cambridge natural sciences, but since then have been quite a few different things as I was a scientist for a little while, and then as a science teacher for a few years. And I spent most of my career as an admissions officer at the University of Oxford's really enjoyed working with students, supporting them through the application process and then running the application process as well. And then since then, I've come to work at Crimson which has been fantastic. Podcast Host 01:12 Is that like heresy in the UK? Going from Cambridge student to Oxford admission officer, talk me through that. Hannah Rowberry 01:19 Absolutely. The Dark Side. Yes. Yes, actually, you know, obviously, there's this great rivalry, at least kind of perceived between Oxford and Cambridge. And indeed, Cambridge started as professors that you ran away from Oxford and start up their own university. So there is this historic rivalry for hundreds of years, however, a friendship between the two and a huge amount of students and staff. Lots of people have have dual citizenship as it were. Okay, right. There you go. Podcast Host 01:46 I didn't know that. I thought it was like, once you're a Cambridge person, you're a Cambridge person for life, or vice versa. I didn't know there was many staff and students moving in between. But that's good to hear. I guess, you know, the more the merrier, and sharing of knowledge and all the rest of it. That sounds good to me. Now, you're a crimson strategist, nowadays, what does that role entail? And how have you found that fulfilling for you? Hannah Rowberry 02:07 Yeah, it's, it's a great role. So it's sort of spans a lot of things really. So I'm working with lots of different students around the world, supporting them in preparing for an application process in the UK. So that can be anything from just thinking strategically, obviously, as a strategist, in terms of their university choices and cost choices, but also thinking about things like their qualifications, and their super curriculum, say things that are doing to kind of boost that profile in terms of developing that interest, and and deepening those as well in preparation application. And then also specific aspects of the application process, say, preparing personal statements, and thinking about some admissions tests and interviews, and sort of working towards getting ready for those and getting students feeling comfortable and confident with application process. When the time comes. Podcast Host 02:53 Are you the kind of strategists that you wish you had when you were a student applying to Cambridge? Hannah Rowberry 02:59 Absolutely. I mean, I didn't have anyone like that when I was applying. So I grew up in rural Yorkshire in the UK, and my lovely kids didn't go to Oxford, Cambridge, really, where I grew up, that wasn't really an expectation for students there. And so I kind of made it up myself, really, I was my own strategist, in terms of preparing for that, but I had no no expectation that I would be getting to Cambridge. So it was very, very exciting to do so. Podcast Host 03:26 Yeah, I bet I bet. Well, we are going to be talking about one particular element of the application today, and that is the Oxbridge interviews. Now these have taken on, I guess, like a kind of mythical status around the world for how challenging they can be. I've seen some blogs about the kind of questions that students get depending on the courses they're applying for. But for students who may not know too much about the Oxbridge interviews, can you give us kind of like a general introduction as to what they are? Hannah Rowberry 03:52 Sure. So it's quite an important part of the application process for like Oxford and Cambridge of aspects as well. But this is the kind of key element in terms of testing a student's teachability. So a lot of people get very nervous about interviews, and think that it's meant to be this sort of nasty, difficult tests, where you'll find lots of impossible questions or bizarre things that you couldn't possibly be empty. And that's not the intention at all. And so the nature of interview is actually a mock tutorial on mock supervision. So oxygen came into different words. But basically, this is the small group teaching, which is typical for how teaching happens in Oxford and Cambridge. And so they're testing the students suitability for that kind of teaching, When are they going to flourish? And that kind of environment, the nature of questions will often be that it's something that you perhaps haven't come across before as a new scenario, but something where you can apply your existing knowledge and skills to to sort of work through that question. So it might be something where you don't have an immediate answer to it, which often is why then if you see you know, blogs about interview questions, they are completely bizarre that are completely impossible, and it can be a little bit of quitting, because they can completely out of context have no sort of single standalone question that you just have to ask. I'm 30. But Robert, that'll be a sort of starting point for a discussion, you might not immediately come to answer. But actually the tutors will be sort of giving you prompts maybe giving you questions or new information to help you work through that. And they're seeing how you respond to that effectively how you respond to that teaching. And so whether you're going to be a good student for them. Podcast Host 05:19 Yeah, so what kind of dictates a well done interview? Is it been super chatty? Or is it been super knowledgeable? Like, what would a student have to do to leave the interviewers wowed after you leave the room? Hannah Rowberry 05:33 Yeah, really good question. I think there's no sort of typical student. And in that sense, I think a lot of people think that they even need to be very extroverted, very opinionated, all those things. None of that really matters. You know, ultimately, these interviews that they're interested in your brain, they're interested in finding out what's what's going on in there, and sort of finding out about your intellectual curiosity and flexibility. I think the key thing in terms of wowing interviews, I mean, obviously, being knowledgeable isn't gonna be a bad thing. But actually also being kind of intellectually curious, intellectually open minded. So again, these questions might be things you haven't come across before, but actually kind of approaching them with an open mind and thinking, Okay, you know, how, how can I think about this? What can I do about this? What do I need to find out to be able to work through this, so actually, a student who listens to the interviewers will impress them. And since they're taking board all that information, and giving, also a student who, you know, isn't afraid to try things out, and actually sort of speak out loud, often advice I give to students is sort of say what you're thinking, because ultimately, the interviewers want to see that thinking process such as saying, you know, no, I'm not sure. But this is what I do know, this is what I'm going to try here. Yeah, that's a really useful thing in sort of showing that thinking process to the interview. Podcast Host 06:46 Right. And I think I've heard from students in the past that the interviewer is not necessarily looking for a student who knows everything, right? They're not looking for correct answers, because there really is no correct answer to a lot of the questions. They're mainly, as you say, looking for that thinking process and that thought process. So to do that, well, as you said, like talking through the answer is perhaps a good tip. Are there any other tips that could help a student demonstrate that they are thinking their way through these questions in an intellectual manner that the interviewers are looking for? Hannah Rowberry 07:18 Sure. So I think, certainly explaining themselves is really important. And also, again, kind of having flexibility in terms of information, often a common error for students is thinking that to kind of show off, they need to doggedly stick to their opinion and need to be like, Yes, I can argue well, because I know what I'm saying, or I changed my mind for anything. And actually, you know, that's not going to be impressive in the sense that they want to see that you could maybe change your mind in new information and actually take that on board. And so again, sort of absorbing information as you're going along. Also not being afraid to sort of go back and correct yourself in the sense that it's quite common. In an interview that you might have said something earlier that you gradually realized later on was rubbish. Yeah. And actually, rather than being like, No, I was brilliant, nothing was wrong. I've realized what I said back then wasn't quite right, kind of go back and you know, took that through again. And again, it's fine, also fine, you know, not to have an immediate answer. And it doesn't mean it's actually enough to take a moment to think these are these are hard questions, these are things that you're going to have to use a bit of bit of brainpower about. So it's fine to take a beat. And think that through and also just for clarification, from interviews, interviewers are human beings, they're fallible, they might not have the perfect question. They might have asked it in a really rubbish way. And so to say, Oh, you know, could you repeat that? Could you say that in a different way? Could you explain what this means? And that's perfectly acceptable? Well, I'm actually you know, it's impressive to interviews that you're kind of really thinking things through. Podcast Host 08:46 Yeah, for sure. Now, I know this is more like a logistics question regarding the interviews, but I'm not quite sure what happened during the last interview round because of COVID. And I know there's always been debate around the value of going on campus versus doing it virtually versus I believe, you can also do the interview in Singapore, as I understand. So what are your thoughts around like the logistics of actually sitting the interview? Hannah Rowberry 09:11 Yes, obviously, no last round are different from usual UK was in full lockdown at the time. And so all of your interviews were remotes in normal years, and hopefully in three years, a situation if the majority of interviews happen in person in the colleges, but obviously students sort of from overseas aren't expected necessarily to travel all that way. Occasionally, do you have students who want to come in person I think I had one student come from Australia, once for us, that's a long way to go. Most students outside of Europe would be having remote interviews in terms of the sort of situation for students and what's best for them and I actually used to run the remote interviews from the colleges that I worked in. It was always a great, great phrase so students that I knew that I would say you know, it is a slightly different experience from an in person interview, you know, you aren't quite as face to face The same way, you don't get quite the same interaction of interviews, that's a slightly different thing. But that doesn't mean that you're at a disadvantage. If they're interviewing you, they want to see, like the student, they will do everything to get all they want out of you and see what's going on in your brain. But yeah, it's a slightly different experience. But now now everyone's happy to be the same for everyone really, um, in terms of like the overseas in person entities, that's just a Cambridge bangs, Oxford don't do that. And although they do have a sort of a big set up in Singapore for my interview, so it's quite a thing that remote interviews, and Cambridge do breaks them in person overseas interviews in a few locations. And again, that can be a good opportunity for students to have that experience. Although you might be getting different interviews then from the sort of main cohort of students. So yeah, roundabouts in terms of sort of what's best for students in that respect, Podcast Host 10:50 I remember chatting to one student who went there, and she wanted to go there just to have the campus experience as well as the interview on campus as well. So it can be beneficial. I think, if you're planning on staying there, if you haven't been to Cambridge, or Oxford, before, I was lucky enough, I actually went in 2019, I think and just as a tourist, and hardly went and did the Oxford tour and the Cambridge tour and love both of them. Is the interview style different depending on the university? Are they looking for, like different things? So say, for instance, you're a student wanting to study science, for instance, would you prepare differently for a Cambridge interview as you would an Oxford interview? Or would you prepare fairly similarly? Hannah Rowberry 11:28 Yeah, they're pretty much identical in terms of how they operate the interviews, I would say, I mean, there's some logistical differences in terms of how they work. And so candidates tend to do interviews in one day, but each student still might have two or three interviews, but it'll be in a relatively short space of time, you might also have adding to the tests or activities on the reading to do prior to the interview, that usually happens in a more condensed period. That said, students obviously still can stay overnight in the colleges, if they have come in from overseas and Cambridge, and Oxford, it's a slightly longer process. So you still are likely to have two or three interviews, but maybe more, if you're going to stay in Oxford for the process. And it usually happens over the course of maybe two or three days. And so students will be kind of in there for the long run. And it's kind of nice experience of hanging out in the college, you'll get to know the other candidates. Usually they're putting on kind of socials and activities. They have lots of lots of student helpers in Oxford, and come and come hang out with me. So it's quite a quite a fun time. Often, this is December around Christmas time, I've only ever it snowed. A lot of fun with that. But it was it was quite a good time. So yeah, different experience with the auction process, but introduce themselves will be the same and have a slight difference toxic is that he might be interviewed by more than more college while you're there for interview. And so Cambridge, you'd only be interviewed by the one that you'd apply to Oxford. Everyone has a good luck. Yeah, so sat around, and you don't necessarily know in advance, which colleges those are going to be. So you'll know your first one, but you might not know, maybe one or two other colleges that you're going to go to. So it's a bit of a bit of a mystery talk in that respect. Podcast Host 13:04 Right? That sounds pretty fun. Well, what's one of the most common questions that you get from students and or parents about the interviews? Like you're a strategist, you're working with this student throughout their entire application process? If they were to sit down and say, Hannah, we're looking at the interviews, this is my main concern, what is that main concern that you often hear? Hannah Rowberry 13:23 One of the biggest concerns? Is it going to be scary? quite nervous about interviews, that's completely understandable. You know, it's a big important thing about the application process being nervous is entirely fine. But I would say that there's nothing really to be said about the nature of the interview, as I said, is that it's meant to be the sort of mock tutorial, it's not meant to be this nasty test, you're not expected to know the answers. If you already knew everything, you wouldn't need to go to university to get things wrong, also interviews, humans that have strong memories of my time and the things that went wrong. And that wasn't the students introduce themselves, and say I had wanted it and they were just completely missing. And we really worried that something terrible had happened, we were like sending people out to try and find them. And just just let them make mistakes. They're not these like, you know, higher beings. So don't worry, you know, these people, these people are normal. These people make mistakes, and actually know that there are also people who love your subjects as well. So they're gonna be super excited to meet you. You might be doing quite a niche, academic field, they might not meet many people who like the same thing that they do have a student who's like, yeah, this is what I want to study, but a nice experience for them as well. So I would say certainly from from my experience onwards from having been a student and having gone through the interview process, the ultimate Cambridge in These are probably the most exciting and interesting interviews you'll have in your life until you go into business for yourself in five years time, right, right. weakness. You're debating a subject, you're talking to people who are at the top of their field, you know, the best people in your subject ever. That's pretty exciting opportunities out. Podcast Host 15:22 Yeah, I mean, I know, if I was a student in that situation, I would be super nervous waiting for the interview, like in that kind of five minute beforehand type of scenario. Actually, I was talking to a student from Sydney, who worked with us for a while and got into Oxford. And he said he was waiting outside the room. And the door was slightly ajar. And he could hear the interview going on before him. And he said, the the poor kid before him did terribly, or what he thought, you know, did terribly. And it just made him like 10 times more nervous, like his heart was already in his throat. And he gave he what was going on. And he now wonders whether or not that was like a deliberate tactic by the interviewers, just to kind of scare the students coming in, you know, straight after they leave the door just slightly. And, yeah, that that was not a good experience. But once he got in and settled and started realizing, as you said, they're just people, he relaxed into it, and ended up getting it, which is fantastic. Now, in terms of preparation, what would you recommend for students to do as like preparing for an interview that changes all the time, right? Like it changes depending on the day or the interviewer or their subject? Like it's, you know, it's a moving target. So how do you prepare for this? Hannah Rowberry 16:38 Sure. So I mean, I think there are obvious things to do in the sense of actually just being comfortable with the things that you should know. Expect to learn extra stuff, to know anything beyond what you've done at school. But feeling comfortable with everything that you have learned in an irrelevant school subject is pretty humbling, it's not going to get you to do a revision. Also, I think just kind of familiarizing yourself with that process. Like I say, don't feel nervous, obviously, that's natural. But actually being aware of what's going to happen being prepared for that means that you're going to feel a little bit more calm, you're gonna find out what this is. And there are lots of breakouts and lots of colleges have produced nice look at videos of what videos of what interview should look like. And you can sort of see, see what it looks like. Also, you know, just getting comfortable with chatting about your interests, chatting about academic matters and what you think about them. So find find a willing victim. You can tell all your favorite things, but subject playing the difficult bits to them. That's really easy, essential as well. That can be a useful process. I bet you do that plenty, right. I love all my favorite things I love I love interview. I love working through interview questions. Beautiful in how they work. Being like this is really scary. Okay, this is something that's accessible. It's something we can work through. Actually, I have I have my own door ajar story. So when I was my own into payments over many years ago, the door was ajar. And I was saying the previous student wasn't there anymore. And they were talking about me, which is pretty horrifying. So they were talking about my application. And they said, Oh, you know, good grades. Let's look again. Let's ask you the hard questions. Yeah, I was I was a little bit shaken. But actually, that was fine. Yes, the questions are challenging, actually. They were enjoyable and helped me work through more difficult and obviously, I got it. Clearly, but takeaway from that, is that yes, challenging. But actually, if you're, if you have an open mind to what's being asked, then you you're right through that process. But yeah, don't don't be put off by things where the interviewer say, Well, sorry, I got completely thrown like this question of interview because often interviewers will ask what they think is like a sort of settling question like how was your journey? Or you know, what, do you have a breakfast like that? And they misread between my school from where I lived, and they were like, Oh, no, did you have a good journey from this town? And I was like, that's not where I live. This question should not contradict. The first question. was a student was so nervous that interviews came out and called the name for a student to come into the interview. Wasn't the student's name. Isn't it Nice. I didn't tell him but he got it wrong. They just carried on and consummate professionals. Yeah, they just went for it. And so I was like running into this. But I was quite worried because the student then officially, from my point of view, had gone missing. hadn't turned up. In a lovely interview, just gone into the student, he was none the wiser, but it was it was very kind to him and got through that. Podcast Host 20:25 Fantastic. Well, we were about to wrap up. But before we do, what would be your one or two top tips for students to stand out from the crowd. Of course, this is the top of the class podcast, we've had some amazing students that we've been interviewing over the last 3132 episodes now. And you know, a lot of these students standout mainly through pretty amazing extracurriculars. But what would be your advice for students? If they were like, okay, competition's pretty fierce? I want to make myself stand out? How would I best do that? What would be your advice? Hannah Rowberry 20:58 Yeah, I think at a very basic level, it was just finding something that I really love, and exploring kind of broadening my horizons. And ultimately, you want the subjects that you're going to apply for that you're going to study at university to be something where, you know, perhaps, you go home to your family, and you tell them everything that you learned in that thing today, at school, or, you know, you read a book and you like, run downstairs and say, Oh, I found this out, I want to tell you about it. That's how you should feel about it. And actually, if you have that level of enthusiasm, and that is something that's gonna shine through in the application process, that's something that's going to come through in the personal statement, that's something that's going to come through it interview, and you know, people who are looking at those are going to be able to see that and are going to see, okay, this is a student who loves this, who is going to be motivated to continue this through their studies. And I think again, sort of specifically then within that aspects, like the sort of personal statement in the interview, there are areas where you really can shine and sort of show where your strengths are in that respect. And so I suppose, within a personal statement, obviously, I've been watching podcasts, and I've seen some really inspiring students, and I think they're wonderful, but not every student has the opportunities to these sort of experiences, however, can have relatively separate experiences, and still have a dazzling insight into them. And I think that's the key thing in terms of shining as a student, is that I, one of the best pencil statements I read was from a student who'd watch a TV show political comedy from the UK called the thick of it. And again, I'm not necessarily advocating that you should write about TV and universal payment. But this one was fantastic that he was saying, you know, what he learned from that? What inspired him from that, and you know, all the books that you've read about, on the basis of that inspiration, but it was it was just very, very genuine. And actually, his insights on that was so so fortunately, he was showing this thinking skills that universities are going to be looking for on that basis. So it's not not what you've done, but what you got out of it, what you thought about it, and so showing depth before. Podcast Host 22:51 I think that's such good advice, and I can't believe I've worked at Crimson now for nearly What is it almost five years now. And that is the first time I've heard that actually, kind of, you know, in that civil term, right, it's not about the heights of your experiences, it's about the kind of depth of your insight more so, you know, the access to these kind of amazing extracurriculars might not always be possible, you know, particularly now in COVID, when half the world's lockdown, it's very, very difficult. So oftens, about the depth of your insights is what will really make or impress particularly interviewers. And I think you know, that that kind of subject specialists, interviewer, right, they're really looking for someone who has thought deeply about the subject. And it's sometimes hard to think deeply about a subject that you might not have studied much of school like astrophysics or something like that, right. But even if it's like watching a cool TV show, and getting some insights from that, and the books, of course, let's not forget the book. So it's a very important ingredient there. Right. But still, I love that I love that I think that's such a good takeaway for students. And I'm sure students would apply that lesson they would be held in good stead for their application, or Hannah. It's been an absolute joy chatting and I hope students have learned as much as I have about the Oxbridge interviews. And of course, if students want an opportunity to work with someone like Hannah, there is going to be a link in the show notes for a free one hour consultation with a lovely local academic advisor as well. Thank you again, for joining us on the college chats as part of the top of the class. I don't want to get confused with all these series names. But either way, it's been an absolute joy having you on and look forward to sharing your insights about the Oxford interviews far and wide. Hannah Rowberry 24:28 Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

#32 From Failing Math to the Best Selling Author of Advanced Calculus Explored

🗓 FEB 6, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Kwok. And in this episode, I chat with Hamza Alsamraee, we chat about how he went from failing at maths to writing an Amazon bestseller about advanced calculus, how he built one of the largest online math communities and what you can do now to develop a love for any subject outside of the classroom. Let's chat with Hamza Alsamraee. Hamza, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's awesome to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Hamza Alsamraee 00:46 Sure. Thank you for having me on. So I'm Hamza Alsamraee. I'm a gap year student mainly interested in math and communication and math education as well. I run daily math, it's the biggest, I think, math page on Instagram. And I'm also the author of two books, Paradoxes. And Advanced Calculus Explored, both of which sold combined, there are 5000 copies. They're both in math. Podcast Host 01:10 Yeah, so maths is the real passion of yours. And you're also known as Iraq's Einstein as well! Hamza Alsamraee 01:17 I didn't pick that title. So it just happened behind the scenes. So a TV channel reached out to me, I'm originally from Iraq. So that's my birth country. And a TV channel just happened to reach out to me, they wanted to do a documentary about kind of how I had my first book, I published it, and kind of my journey and discovering my passion for math. And really, it was, it was a beautiful thing to do. It was lovely. Even though it's a bit tiring, at times shooting whole documentary, it took about three days to fully shoot, but eventually came out November. And that was the title that they came up with the rock science side. And I'm really proud of it. Podcast Host 01:53 It is obviously like a pretty high bar that they've set for you. And I guess like when you start putting that in a documentary and start putting that further and further out, I guess people's expectations of you potentially go up as well. So what's it been like to kind of have that documentary come out? And then I guess people's perceptions of you know, what you've been able to do in the last, you know, couple of years of high school and writing these books and these kinds of things? Do you feel like it's a high bar that you're happy to have? And you're able to keep striving towards? Hamza Alsamraee 02:21 Definitely. I mean, I'm the type of person who sets high bars, even if I know, they're practically impossible to achieve. I played football in high school, American football, and my coach had this one quote that really stuck with me. Aim for perfection. So you can be excellent on the way there, right? So you'll never get to being perfect. You'll never get to being maybe the best of the world at something right? I sign maybe was the best at math and physics, mathematical physics. And maybe you'll never get there. Right? But just aiming for that goal could be in and of itself, something that's very meaningful to you and could be what keeps you going, what keeps you doing what you do? Podcast Host 02:56 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, let's go back a little bit. So take us back all that way to when you first started feeling that connection to maths and who helped you cultivate that love of maths and how did it start playing out in different ways for you? Hamza Alsamraee 03:10 Yeah, so I didn't you always know that I liked math when I was good at school. But you know, nothing extraordinary in elementary school, even you know, when I went to middle school was nothing that set me apart, I was always interested in patterns. And that's what really brought me into math is kind of pattern finding and solving for patterns, just discovering patterns all around me. So I soon discovered that that passion for patterns was math. And eventually, I moved to the US around six years ago. So I would have been in seventh grade. And when I first came to the US six years ago, I went to a school in Inner City, Philadelphia, which was severely under resourced. And eventually I moved out of that school when I went to a charter school that was much more academically rigorous in Michigan. When I went there. We were learning stuff about linear equations and solving them. So right now pretty simple stuff. But back then, when I was in middle school, it was very, very hard for me. And first quiz that I got, I basically just failed it. I think, you know, I got I got I got an app, right. And from there, I just was determined to never be behind. I hated being behind in class and being lost. That was the feeling that I dreaded the most is just going into class and not knowing a word of what the teacher said. And that was how I fell back then. So we had this website called Excel. It was kind of a Khan Academy of its day. Cow Academy was still there, but it wasn't as developed as it is right now. So I Excel was our homework website. We basically do around 30 minutes of homework a week, very modest requirement, but then I really started liking what it had to offer. And I just started practicing as much as I can. And it really introduced me to a lot of topics that I didn't know even existed. So I was mainly studying you know, linear equations, and just y equals mx plus v just getting that down in class, but then introduce me to stuff in geometry, you know, introduce me to stuff, that's an algebra two. And slowly through that website, I got to learn a lot of math that I wasn't exposed to before. And it slowly just kind of became an addiction, to learn more and discover more. And I just felt it wasn't really a drive to do good in class, because at that point, I was beyond the scope of the class. It was just a drive to explore something that I deem very interesting. And I feel like, you know, I was lucky to discover that very early on, and it doesn't have to be math for everyone. You know, whatever it may be, if you find it, I feel like just falling in love with the process of learning it is the best catalyst. Like being motivated to pursue a great is one thing, but me being motivated just for the sake of exploration is a whole nother ballgame. Podcast Host 05:51 Yeah, but I know that a lot of students and this is probably going back to when I was a student in math class, I remember I, I put my hand up one time, I think we're all learning, you know, circuito, or whatever it might have been, or tangents and whatnot. And I put up my hand and I said to the teacher, I said, Ms Salvitti, when are we ever going to use this? Hamza Alsamraee 06:13 Classic question, right? Podcast Host 06:15 And her answer was like, Well, if you want to be a math teacher, you'll need to know it. And I'm like, I'm not gonna be a math teacher. Right? So for me, and I think a lot of other math students, they see that like, maths is rather theoretical, but don't necessarily see the real world application. When you were going through in learning all these kinds of things. What was your driving motivation? beyond just learning things? Were you able to see a real world application? Or were you just literally enjoying the learning process? And getting answers? Right? Hamza Alsamraee 06:42 To be honest, back then, I would say I was more interested in physics. And maybe So now, I'm interested more in applying math to the real world applied mathematics. So definitely saw a lot of applications back then. I mean, my both of my parents are civil engineers. So they told me all types of stories, you know, maybe they don't do the math with their hands, you know, nobody really does anymore. But they told me all types of stories about how you know, you they use it, maybe as in their programs, right, whatever software they may be using, right, and measurements and architectural drawings, right. And that was kind of my first exposure to saying, hey, math isn't just this abstract mess, can actually be applied. You know, I never really saw my dad solve an integral, but he didn't need to, because that was already worked out for him maybe 50 years ago, because someone just worked out a simple software program to do it for him. So I think that that was my first exposure, but I got to go more theoretical, and even in the applications. So I was really interested in quantum physics, relativity. And obviously, those fields are just riddled with math. And once I began seeing how fascinating the world can be at the extreme, so relativity is really all about extremes of speed, when you go really fast, you know, time changes, every year mass changes, you know, everything looks different, and quantum physics all about when you go really small, you know, how how does the world happen? How does the world operate at a very small scale. So that's really the two fields that drove me to learn a lot of math in the first place, is wanting to understand the core essence of what I deemed to be reality, you know, the universe that was kind of a motivator behind, you know, like, wasn't really something that I realized was motivating me. But it was definitely what drove me in retrospect. Podcast Host 08:30 I love that explanation of quantum physics is really small. relativity is really fast. I mean, I, as I said, not a mathematician myself. But that's like the most simple explanation I've ever heard of that. So I actually finally know, a kind of at least the introduction of what quantum physics or what relativity is actually all about. So thank you very much for that. But that's really awesome. Yeah, I think like having civil engineers as parents would definitely make a difference, right? Because they're just showing you that maths is not theoretical in and of itself, like it has so many real world applications. And I think that must have been a pretty good aspiration for you, or be able to kind of say, what matters and just, you know, numbers on a page, you can help build buildings, you can help do this cetera, et cetera. But one thing that I am interested in is that I know maths is very much like building blocks, right? And I'm sure you you write about this in your book as well. That if you don't have a particular thing down, Pat, everything above it starts to crumble a little bit, or you can never quite get there. You said you were struggling at maths in school. Did you find through that process of going on I Excel that you had kind of that missing building blocks along the way? And if so, like, what did you feel was, you know, some of the things that were potentially holding you back from being a success in maths and were you able to address it? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, the first thing that I started with before I grinded on IXL was I asked my parents, they helped me a lot. And you know, there's tutoring sessions could have been like, yeah, they were very long. Sometimes they're very tiring, but eventually Got to learn kind of the basics that led me to be good at IXL, right and kind of IXL, like IXL, IXL. They're basically for each chapter, they had a little homework assignment to do. And I just complete as many of those as I can. And I think that really the idea that you if you don't have a solid base, you can like fail, that's overplayed a lot. I think that if you were to just go exploring, knowing what you're missing isn't going to be that hard. So let's say you're doing a geometry problem or something, and you don't know how to solve this one certain linear equation. So you directly know what you have to learn. So you can always go back, it never hurts unless you're in a class. That's a whole different thing, right? where it's like, you can fail a class if you don't have the right basics, but doing exploration in and of itself, you know, watching more advanced videos, why, you know, reading about more advanced math theories never hurts, right? As long as you can understand a little bit of it, you know, it will only give you more content to munch on, if you don't know it fully. So to anyone that that wants to learn more advanced math content, but feels like they don't have the right preparation. Just go for it. Especially people like Three Blue One Brown, these math YouTubers, they make really advanced stuff seem really simple. And because they love to explain things, and they do it in such a beautiful manner. Yeah, I think it's an interesting concept of like, how far maths teaching has come and obviously, like you've been getting into that now with daily math and also your books. That, you know, I think maths teaching in and of itself, like we, by the way, in Australia, we call it maths plural. Yeah, as opposed to math there in the US. But it's really interesting, I think, to see how far math has gone as a classroom subject. Where do you think it's gone wrong in the past that has, you know, why turned off so many students from maths like, there's, there's a significant drop, at least here in Australia. And I know, in some parts of the world as well, from students doing advanced maths, they kind of get to that level where you can do the intermediate level, and they're like, yeah, that's fine. I'll just stick with that type of thing. So where do you think teaching is gone? Perhaps a little bit, or missteps in the teaching of kids in school? Hamza Alsamraee 12:14 I definitely think so. There's two types of maths or math in the world. There's the math that propel society propel civilization builds buildings, you know, comes up with new exciting theories about physics, chemistry, medicine. Now, whatever it may be, you know, the basis of our civilization. And there's the math that people complain about, and is the drag of so many students. And it's something that is never going to be applied in real life. And I feel like the main difference between those two types of maths is, let's look at how math is applied in the real world. Right now. Nobody's jotting down integrals and solving them in a, you know, like just on on a piece of paper, you know, they're plugging them in into Python or something, nobody is, like, a really tedious method that you would learn calculus class, like Newton's method, right? Were back then Nuland would probably have to work it out by hand. But right now, you don't need to have that because a computer, your calculator does it for you, or your computer does it for you. And I think the biggest disconnect is people have to do these things by hand. And that's where it's truly never going to be applied in real life. You You need to understand how to do the mechanisms behind these things. But you also need to understand how to apply them through tools. So I think one thing is just lessening the amount of computation each student has to do, because they will never be better at doing these advanced computations than a computer, we'll be right our computers are much more advanced. So just cutting down on that. And really bringing math back to what I think is original meanings was is just a new way of seeing the world quantitatively. And a rigorous way to test any hypothesis related to numbers, you know, that's going to be statistics and data science. So I think that's number one. Number two is really, I think this is missing from all of education, as well as just active project oriented learning, where the student doesn't feel like they're being lectured at. But the student feels actively involved in their learning process. And I can understand why that doesn't happen. It takes a lot of resources. And it takes very high organizational complexity within the school system. And that makes a lot of sense why it's not implemented. But if we really want to move forward in terms of education, we have to make students more involved within their own education, whether it's like in math class, have, you know, like, every quarter, you'll have a project applying, you know, if even if it's calculus, there's a lot of ways to apply calculus. I remember one project that I had was I used to be really into football. So I looked into projectile motion and what the best way to throw a football was, you know, why was this angle the best? And it's something that we know intuitively, maybe from just throwing a ball, but there's actually fascinating math by Find it and you can compute an actual best angle. And it turned out to be, I think, right around 30 to 35 degrees to throw like an American football. So stuff like that tying other subjects into your passion. Podcast Host 15:12 Right, I think we do that a lot, maybe with the humanities where you have like eight different types of papers, you know, tying in maybe your passion for art, or your passion for math with history, your passion for science with history. But we don't do that nearly enough with STEM subjects. Because we feel like we're not at that stage yet. But you can do interesting explorations at every level of your academic upbringing. Because they just look at real world problems, like, you know, it can be history and looking at the, you know, what happened in different wars and going back and having a bit of a discovery through that. And I think maths is just, I, when I go through my mess learning at school, it was just literally learning content for a test, we didn't get a good score, you felt like a straight up failure. And I think there's a lot of students who get turned off from maths because they have too many failures. Whereas they probably have one area of maths, they could really love and apply it to a particular area that they really love and are really interested in. So for students who are interested in doing that kind of investigation outside of class, where do you think they should start? Hamza Alsamraee 16:13 In terms of learning? I think that I mean, online is the best way to start, I want to recommend you hop on any books before you hop and learn stuff online. I mean, contrary to popular opinion, I think Wikipedia is a great resource. So for a general look up, right, let's say you're interested about this one specific concept. And general look up on Wikipedia can tell you quite a lot. For more in depth explorations. I think the site brilliant.org is amazing. Obviously, Khan Academy, other types of math sites, I'm working right now at a tech startup called mastodon, so kind of a shout out to them, you know, of self promo, but mastodon.org has great content, very interactive. And there's quite a lot of websites that start and once you kind of get to learning a lot of that type of stuff, it's time to get involved, whether that is through a school project, you know, a science fair project, you know, forming a math community somewhere or plant, you know, just joining an existing one, I know a brilliant they have like a big math community, or problem solving as a big math community, wherever you can find people who share your passion, that's going to be an accelerator for your own growth. And obviously, like the usual math competitions, we have them at school camera, applying them there. But really, it's a very vast field and how you can apply it, you can look at various fields and how they intersect with math, or you can look at just like the pure mathematics, recreational mathematics. And what I like about math is I think it's one of the most versatile subjects, you can apply math to linguistics, and you can apply math to history, and you can apply math or physics. So whatever interests you aftermath, right, or whatever your primary interest is, find ways to apply it with math, whether it be through projects, competitions, you know, starting your own thing, and I wouldn't get discouraged from wild ideas, like having a math page on Instagram wasn't the most popular idea, right. But a lot of people try not to like it. So don't be afraid to try something that's new, and combine different passions in new ways, because sometimes they can work and they can work wonderfully. Podcast Host 18:16 Yeah, I think that's a that's a very, very good point. And thank you for those resources, we'll put a couple of those in the show notes as well, in terms of your books, let's go back to that. Because you've written two books, you're a young guy, you must have had a fair bit of time sunk into those two books. And I guess it's probably not, you know, quote, unquote, the sexiest thing to be doing is writing books on calculus when you're in high school. But you know, you went out and did that, which is awesome. So take us through that process, like, how did the idea come about? And when you have the idea, what did you do for next steps. Hamza Alsamraee 18:48 So for my first book, honestly came out of the lack of resources that I experienced. So a lot of upper math books on upper math textbooks are very inaccessible in their language, they're very heavily pretreated. And hey, that's a good thing if you're a grad student, or trying to learn that, but for me, I was just honestly there to explore. And I felt like a big barrier between high school level math where there was a lot, there was plenty of resources to learn it, right, from Khan Academy to mapping on brilliant when you go to advanced level stuff, right? It's just suddenly a desert of textbooks. And when textbooks come along, right, even good textbooks, they would always be either very expensive, and accessible. So I want it to be the change I wanted to see in the world. And I decided, hey, why not write a book, but I was probably like, 13 back then. So who qualifies me to write a book about, you know, advanced topic, I ended up writing maybe like, you know, five pages, you know, every week, maybe every month and it was very on and off. wasn't until about my junior year that my friend saw me typing away at a document called book. I was like, What is this? It's like, Oh, I'm writing a book. I've been doing this for like three, four. yours now, like, wait, really, and I just, you know, we had a conversation, he's like, you should really publish this thing I was like it was at that point, it was nowhere near publishable. It was just a bunch of different equations and solutions, and exercises and explanations, it was just all over the place. But once I got that advice from him, I started working on you know, actually making a publish publishable textbook. And I saw it kind of like a traditional publishing contract at first. But then I realized why I was doing this in the first place. And it's because to make it more accessible. And if I were to go publish with an academic publisher like Springer, or I don't know, Oxford or Cambridge, they would charge me the same no matter how much if I even if I gave up completely on royalties, which were barely anything for Academic Publishers, they'd still charge very high amounts. And I basically have no power or control over the content, they'll just have to mold it to their liking. So I decided to self publish it, I wanted to do it before my 17th birthday. So I can say I'd been at 16. So I did it two days before my 17th birthday. And I mean, it was a beautiful feeling to press that Publish button. And eventually I self published through Amazon. And it worked out great, you know, not only can I set my own prices, which are pretty low compared to other textbooks, but you know, I have full control over what I can put in it. And in general, just, I was really surprised to see so many people, you know, kind of being interested in it. And the funniest story that I had was I don't know if this is real or not, but on my daily math, email, someone emailed me. And he was like, I think it was like, Oh, I'm emailing you. Like I just, I was in prison for seven years. And I wanted help on your book, chapter two, exercise seven or something. And I don't know how my book made it to prison. But if someone read it in prison, hey, like props to him? Yeah, so that was the wildest story. A lot of story I've had with the book, but I was really surprised to see it reach so many people, I mean, only, it's, I think sold around 4000 copies by now. But for an advanced calculus book, that's a huge number. You know, very nice, nice textbook. Podcast Host 22:13 If I was asked to write a advanced calculus textbook, firstly, I would say you're asking the wrong person. But if I did have that kind of level of knowledge, right, I would also write a whole lot of equations and solutions and put a couple of explanations in there. But then it would be still I feel a long way from looking like a textbook. So what was the biggest challenge for you in bringing all that three or four years of content? That sounds like a massive headache? What was your approach to try and format it in a way that was accessible for students? So Hamza Alsamraee 22:43 yeah, I mean, since I self published it, right, so with an academic publisher, so you have a dedicated editor, you have a dedicated, maybe team of like, people, beta readers, so I didn't have those institutional resources. So I leverage the power of the daily math community, I brought an editor from outside, you know, that I knew from, you know, a teacher, a teacher recommended her, and she worked with me. And you know, I had a connection with someone that wrote a similar book that would give that gave me feedback on your kind of the general structure of the book. So don't be afraid to use resources. And if anything, you have to use outside resources, especially if you're a high schooler trying to publish, you know, more niche textbooks, especially something that's nonfiction where you have to have authoritative sources, authoritarian voice throughout the book. So what I did Besides, you know, getting that editor and getting that Professor to help is I would actually just hop on my daily math page and kind of advertise like, Hey, does anyone want to read kind of like a beta version of the book so they can give feedback on it. And I made sure that I selected people from all types of backgrounds. So I selected high school students, I selected undergrads, I selected graduate students. So I would get feedback at all levels, because hey, if I picked only graduate students, and mathematics, they would have very high level feedback. And it will probably not serve like the targeted audience, which was an early undergraduate student that is vaguely interested in math and as applications. So I made sure to kind of get like a beta team of readers and beta reader team. And they read through it for like a month or two, and they gave me their feedback. And that's how it got to be polished up, you know, it's not the most refined textbook out there. But you know, with the resources that you have, you know, you have to make the best use of them. And eventually, after all the help from these people, it got to a very refined product, where you can publish this and say, Hey, I'm proud of this, and it matches the quality of the market, let's say. Podcast Host 24:46 Yeah, yeah. 100%. That's a good explanation. I'm interested in how many doors does writing a book open for you? Because I think there's a lot of different ways that students can share their interest and share their knowledge. With the world, they could start a podcast, for instance, or they could start an Instagram or they could start a YouTube channel, or you know, they could write a book. But I've always thought that writing a book is kind of that Everest of authority in a field, right? If you if you publish a book, if you get a book out there, that's basically saying to everybody, I know my stuff. Right? And it's a very kind of bold statement that you are the authority in this particular area. And yeah, I'd be interested to hear from you as to if you felt that at all, like when you published advanced calculus, did you feel like you were being treated as an authority in the area? Because you published a book? Hamza Alsamraee 25:36 I would say, like yes and no, in some respects, so I was definitely treated as someone that is, since this book is not quite researched level yet. It's not something that is at the frontier of knowledge. I was currently right. So this is I didn't discover new equations in this book. I'm just teaching stuff that's already in other textbooks in a more accessible and presentable way, you know, especially to people that don't really have the most access to resources. But in terms of like authority figures, I was definitely I felt like given more of an authority in circles of math, education and math communication. Now I got to work I got to talk to some pretty cool people, probably the biggest name that I got to talk to Steven Strogatz. So Steven Strogatz is a New York Times best selling author, he writes books, too. And I won a prize in his name. And we got to me, we got to chit chat a lot. I was part of this initiative. Like back in the summer, we've invited him to be on kind of like a panel, and I got to meet with three blue one Brown. So you definitely get a lot of like verification for being who you are like, hey, let's say you want to establish yourself as an educator or a communicator in a specific field, a book will definitely help you. Like my main goal with this book was just to like help out people, I was originally going to make it free. But then publishing costs, I need to pay for those. So yeah, yeah. And also, like, on that aspect of it, like I noticed that free books don't actually get a lot of reads, when people can get something free. They don't put as much effort into reading it. Yeah. So it was, it was a paradox in terms of, oh, you make a hire more people actually read it. So I think that in terms of writing a book to become an authority figure, that's one way, that's one reason to write a book. And if that is your goal, I would try to make the book more on the side of being lengthy and being more authoritative than being catchy and readable. Because if you want to establish your name, you know, you're gonna have to write a tap more technical, more grandiose, more very general book than, let's say something like paradox is my second book was more of like a recreational math type. You know, it just talks about the history of paradoxes, some of their applications, when nothing like an academic textbook, like my first one was, yeah, no, Podcast Host 28:04 well, it's good to say that you've got ins with the math community, and particularly the math educators, math communicators. That's where I was thinking that you'd probably have a lot of into, there's actually a quite a famous mathematician or math teacher here in Australia. And he's created a YouTube channel called Blue tube. And his name is Eddie Wu. And, and, Hamza Alsamraee 28:22 of course, anyway, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I haven't met him, but I know. Podcast Host 28:25 Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, he, you know, is like a celebrated maths teacher here in Australia, and does some fantastic videos on YouTube. And is there any kind of thought, obviously, like, your charismatic guy? Is there any thought of taking your content on to other platforms, I mean, we'll talk about daily math in a moment. But YouTube, those kinds of things as well as ever thought, Hamza Alsamraee 28:45 definitely, to be honest, I've been slacking on that for about a year now. Always wanted to start a YouTube channel, but it's like, I always delay it in my head, like, Oh, I'm busy this week. Let me start next week. I'm busy this month, let me start next month. So my goal is to definitely have a YouTube channel by the summer, right? That was like my very strict goal for myself, like habit before I started college, and if someone wants to build, so this going more into like social media and kind of the whole, you know, there's a lot of debate on social media platforms, and which is the best one. But really, whatever one you feel most comfortable building an audience in, like, Instagram is very visual. So if you're a visual person, Instagram, obviously YouTube takes the most effort, you have to edit videos, animate them, maybe record videos, it's gonna take a lot of tries. But hey, if you think you want to try it out, try it out. It's very hard to get started. But yeah, whatever the platform may be, I think that you know, if you want to share truly build an audience or build, you know, a community around what you like, I think social media is a great way to start and it's a very underexplored medium. I feel like right now, especially with the COVID era, you can you know, math clubs are hard to make, but you can make a virtual math club on it. Instagram or on YouTube or on Twitter, whatever it may be. Podcast Host 30:03 Yeah, well, you've been doing exactly that with daily math. What was the goal of that community? And what were you trying to convey to your audience in that I know, we discussed earlier that perhaps starting an Instagram math channel, you might think who's going to follow that, but you've got over 100,000 followers, and that's off the back of about 400 or so posts. So it's growing quite quickly. What are you kind of noticing from that community? And what was the content that really kind of generates the most likes and the most kind of excitement from your your community that Hamza Alsamraee 30:36 in terms of why I started the community, to be honest, was twofold. One, I, we didn't have a math club at school, and there wasn't even enough interest for one. So I figured, hey, let me start my own math club. And let me make it on Instagram. And second, mainly to kind of I thought that, hey, maybe even if I get 1000 followers, I started this in June of 2019. Maybe if I get 1000 followers in like five months, which was when I plan to publish my book, maybe, you know, like, 10, people are gonna read it. Now, that was like, I was very modest. Like, I didn't know that many people like math on Instagram. But I was wrong. And I'm glad I was wrong. So the reason it blew up, I feel like I had a strategy. That was in retrospect, I didn't realize that was my strategy. But now I say it is basically just our very niche, like, start with a very narrow audience, you want to target that very narrow audience. And after you get that very loyal following, start expanding your content. So in the beginning, I focus primarily on integral calculus, like that's a very niche area of math. But now I focus on pretty much all types of math, right? Whether it's recreational, you know, it's just cool. Or whether it's like serious research math, or geometry, algebra, whatever it may be, you know, I try to have it on Well, if it's interesting, and the content that really gets the most views is the content that piques people's imaginations and interests them the most, right, and that can take a wide variety of forms. So, you know, it can be an very interesting math problem. But it can also be a really cool math animation, it can be a math concept that seems very obscure, that is well explained. I know, there's this very obscure, like, not totally obscure, but very hard to formulate, theoretically, it's called notaires theorem. And it's this mathematical physics law that talks about how symmetry and conservation laws are actually one in the same thing. So right here, if you move it, this will be symmetry and movement, like linear movement, if you move something, an object, that's an inherent property of the universe, right? If you move like, I don't know, like a phone case, right, from left to right, nothing changes, you can move it just fine. And the same laws of physics apply. So that's, you know, you can prove through that theorem, that that is the reason that, you know, conservation of momentum exists, you know, all these conservation laws, conservation of energy, conservation of mass, have an underlying symmetry, you know, just like how we think of symmetry, yeah. And the universe, whether it be through time symmetry through time symmetry, motion. And it's a very cool concept. But the math behind it looks so complicated. And just the fact that you can simplify it, and a short caption Instagram caption and make people feel like they learn something new. People love that, you know, learning something new is an amazing thing. As long as you make it very catchy and very immersing, you have to make it an immersive experience. You can't let the other person feel like they're lecture that you have to make them feel like they're involved within the journey of exploration. Podcast Host 33:41 Well, that's tough to do in a caption, but what you're going through, yeah, yeah, it that's the real art form of it, right? Like it's making something that is accessible, which I guess in some terms might mean basic, but also technical enough that your community will appreciate it. Can I just ask why integral calculus to start with? Hamza Alsamraee 34:03 It's a really interesting chain of events. So Brilliant. So I told you about the platform, Brilliant that I was really involved in. So Brilliant used to have a lot of that type of stuff, very interesting integrals with lovely results, right? So you can have like an integral that appears in like quantum physics, and somehow pi appears in there. You know, it's like fascinating, those links in math, right. And it was a really, really popular form of problem on brilliant a lot of people were posting these types of problems. And the real the real reason behind that is brilliant, had a big Indian demographic, and the most influential Indian mathematician was Rama, Nugent. And Rama. NuGen had a very deep interest in their roles and he was known as being a crazy integrator, he would do very crazy integrals and somehow, they all turned out right even when he doesn't show a lot of his work. So the reason And that that happened is somehow he borrowed a textbook that had a lot of those that had a little section on, like integrals and very fancy integrals, that just somehow inspired him to do more work in that area. And that just domino effect from a little textbook that he picked up when he was a kid that made him a very popular mathematician that eventually, you know, got brilliant to be filled with these made me really like integrals. And also my book had a lot of them. So it's kind of like a marketing pot for that as well. So yeah, it was you don't have to start with integral calculus, it just has to be something that's very nice, whether, let's say you're into history, start with European history, you know, and maybe even more specific European history means, right? Some person is going to like them, right? Some person is going to be really into that type of stuff. And you can slowly expand to just history in general. Right? And obviously, history is a huge niche, you know, it's very hard to cover all of history, but you don't have to cover all of history. Right? You know, every day, you know, it's a new post, you can post something new. And it's just something that's interesting, whether it be about, you know, ancient Chinese history, or modern Middle Eastern history, whatever it may be, yeah, interests you, you can build a community around it, you know, and that's a very powerful belief. And it's something that I didn't believe initially, especially about math, right. which seemed like a topic that turned off a lot of people. But hey, if you like it, there's probably other people that like it, too. Podcast Host 36:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, one thing that I'm interested in as well Hamza, is that you've referenced a couple, I guess, quote, unquote, math heroes feels like an important thing for you to kind of like have these maths heroes in a way right? Feels like from talking to you that knowing these people and what they've achieved in maths help you expand your frame of reference of what's possible in the area of maths as well. And I think that's a, like when I'm thinking to students today, a lot of the time their frame of reference is very small, it might just be like, the content of the exam. And it might just be like, the best mathematician they might know is their math teacher. So how important was it for you to think to kind of expand that out and to look at these, like, amazing mathematicians, like almost magicians within their field right now really breaking into new ground and trying new things? Was that inspiring for you? Hamza Alsamraee 37:15 Yeah, I mean, I, so I'll tell you a little story. So I was born in Iraq. So I was specifically in Baghdad, the capital, Baghdad, had a very, very cool street called and within the streets, within Abbey was this poet from 1000 years ago. And he was this really influential Iraqi poet. And that street is basically the cultural center of Iraq. It has the biggest bookstore, maybe in the middle waves, the highest concentration of bookstores, in the Middle East. And it was just a lovely place to chat about all types of things. You know, every day, you'll have like, the city's most intellectual, you know, most well known intellectuals come in talking about all types of things. And my grandpa was actually a history professor. Right? So he'd go there a lot, and he'd bring me with him. And obviously, my parents are engineers, so they like math. And they used to bring me books from that street when I was really, really young. Right. So there are a lot of children's books. But they basically described a lot of the rich mathematical history of Baghdad. So from people like, you know, to see who discovered the SOHCAHTOA stuff, right? from people like me, who discovered algebra, they kind of just reading about that and feeling like, I am part of my city's legacy, right. And even at large at a larger scale, I'm part of humanity's legacy, right? Like the things that I'm thinking about right now or thought about before me, that's a beautiful thing to realize that this is just a never ending cycle of human exploration, to understand our place in the world, and you know, kind of who we are as a human species. That's a beautiful thing to think about being connected to these types of people, whether it's like, I had the luck of being born in a city with a rich history. But even if you were born in I don't know, very, like the middle of Canada or the middle of Australia, right, where maybe there's not a lot of ancient mathematicians. That doesn't mean that you're not connected to the very rich history of math throughout the world. Throughout humanity's history and looking up to people like Rama NuGen, like Steven Strogatz, you know, even current people, I feel like that can provide you with a source of inspiration, and a deeper level of meaning to what you do that's outside, like a simple exam grade, because getting good grades getting so good college, like, that's a very cool thing to do. But there's a reason you want to do that stuff. And you got to discover that reason, like, do you just want to be, you know, world class researcher, do you want to really change the world? You know, do you just want to learn, like, there's a reason underlying all of that, and knowing your reason, right, you can definitely tie that in to very influential figures, right. And knowing and I don't have only math role models, you know, I think role models in general, you know, having a lot of those role models in your life. I think that's a very important thing. And it doesn't have to be this great mathematician, it can be someone like your dad, it can be someone like an influential adult in your life. Just the character really is what makes those mathematicians great. I don't like Rama, Nugent, because of his math. I like Ramanujan because of the story. And I feel like that Trumps any mathematical equation. Podcast Host 40:22 Yeah, I love that story. Man also speaks to probably why you're writing books, and prioritize that over starting a YouTube channel, because you went with the granddad to that straight with his full of books all the time, right? So it must be very near and dear to your heart. But something like a really special moment when you press publish on that book, and you're like, hey, yeah, that's my contribution to this kind of legacy that continues on. And hopefully you're kind of helping other people to explore more in that area of maths or whatever it might be. But in terms of the future, where do you think maths is going as a field in general, obviously, like, data science, and that kind of stuff is really, you know, Ai, and machine learning, etc? It really is bringing a whole new kind of possibility to the world of maths. Is that something that you're interested in? Or is that something that you see that, you know, could really bring a more students back to a higher level maths? Hamza Alsamraee 41:15 I think so. I mean, we're moving towards a more technical economy, like right now, more and more jobs are being dedicated to very high level technical fields, and a lot of those require a lot of math. So there's gonna, there's gonna have to be some change. So educational shift, and I feel like, the reason is going to come is because of pressure from other countries. In a lot of ways, the US responds best, when there's an outside threat to the US being like the best at what it does. Yep. So right now, you know, we, we are the mathematical center of the world when you produce the most mathematical output. But if let's say the UK Trumps us, or Japan, Trump's us, or China, Trump says, right, and AI output or math output, that's going to put the Department of Education in a really tight hole where they have to change the math curriculum to reflect the ever changing needs of humanity and the economy. So I definitely think that the things we talked about things like getting rid of so much computation, and actually using computers, instead of deeming them as a cheating device, using a computer isn't cheating, using a computer is just what you do in real life. Yeah. Right. So if a mathematical problem can be solved with the computer, then it's not a math problem. Right? If you can solve it, you know, with a calculator, it's not a math problem. Unless you're talking about like very young students, like in elementary school, like I want them to do arithmetic. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, once you get to high school level, you know, your arithmetic, you can add, you can multiply just fine. You can do fractions. So now it's more about analytical thinking and applying mathematical problem solving to actual problems, right. So you see that all the time in computer science and AI, so it has to really reflect in the education system. And I think that more and more countries are moving towards it. And eventually, you know, the big population centers like India, China, and the US, they're going to move towards that as well. Podcast Host 43:06 Yeah, well, I'm actually reading AI superpowers at the moment, which is a fantastic book that was gifted to me by my co host, Jamie, and I'm sure Jamie would have loved to have chatted with you, by the way, he did applied maths and economics at Harvard. So he's all Yeah, yeah, he's all about maths. I mean, it's interesting from a Crimson perspective, that, you know, as far as I know, we're one of the first kind of college consulting organizations to really bring in a lot of data points. Because Jamie's like a really big believer in the power of data, he loves, you know, stock investing, and that kind of thing, data is one of those things that he just kind of locked on to so we've been collecting just hates your data to try and predict, you know, if a student was to get X amount in their SAT, and they were to, you know, be from this background in this country, and whatever, whatever they asked for this much financial aid, what is their chances are getting into, you know, one of the eight Ivy League's, or whatever it might be, right. And it kind of makes those decisions around, which is usually based on experience of like, Oh, I think the student will get into X number of universities kind of starts backing it up with a little bit more data and those kinds of things. So yeah, from from, it really is a, I think that data side of things is really going to bring in a whole new era for maths and what's possible with it, which is really awesome. And you as you said, they a lot of jobs, and a lot of them are pretty highly paid too. So not a bad place to end up. I think they're speaking of which, you know, in colleges, where are you getting into college for your summer? Hamza Alsamraee 44:33 So yeah, for for my college, so it's a bit complicated. So I applied last year, and I committed to a school so I committed to Northwestern, but then what happened is I realized that there's a little financial aid policy that's not really that works out the best for my situation. So I reapply to a few schools this year, who have a little bit better financial policy, so I'm not really sure where I'm gonna end up Northwestern is still my likely option, but if I get into a better school, like with terms of like, you know, better financial aid Probably just going to go there. So yeah, pretty much undecided right now. Podcast Host 45:03 Yeah. Well, Northwestern still a great choice. But yeah, there are, yeah, financial aid, obviously, you know, can make or break a decision really like it. I mean, 1000s and 1000s of dollars. So completely understand that. And what are you looking to study there? Hamza Alsamraee 45:15 Definitely math, definitely physics, so double major in that. And for my minor if I have time, computer science minor, really, I'm interested in the field of quantum computing. So math, physics, and computer science is like the Holy Trinity for quantum computing, math for the algorithm aspect of it, computer science for how to program it and Physics for how to make it happen. So that's where I want to be. That's the feel I want to be in the future. And I think that trio would really prepare me for it. Podcast Host 45:43 Yeah. And if you got any companies in mind that you would love to work for or like, you might want to start your own I guess. Hamza Alsamraee 45:48 Yeah, I mean, I'm not really sure I don't have my eyes on a lot of stuff. I mean, obviously, Google, IBM, Microsoft, they have a lot of cool stuff regularly. They have cool stuff, too. But yeah, there's a lot of companies in the quantum ecosystem right now. But I might just have, you know, a revolution, that's the goal is to have something that's revolutionary, that will make be able to start my own startup in the field. Podcast Host 46:11 Yeah, well, I think that'd be a pretty cool thing. I think it's an interesting, you know, conversation around those kind of futures of careers. Because I know that a lot of traditional pathways are a lot more kind of obvious to students, when they're going through high schools, like, you know, if you're smart do medicine or law type of thing, and particularly here in Australia, like, it's not really the dumb thing to go into computer science yet. Whereas in the US, like, electrical engineering, computer science is, you know, pretty hot property over there. But yeah, it's interesting to kind of look at the future of maths and where that might take students. So hopefully, they can kind of follow along with your journey. And speaking of which, if they wanted to follow your journey, what would be the best way to get in contact with you? Hamza Alsamraee 46:53 Yeah, so um, just email me, or you can DM me on daily math, I try to respond to a lot of people there. So those are the best ways to get in touch with me. I post a lot of cool stuff on daily map. So if you're into Bab, go follow me there. And definitely, if you want to reach out even about, you know, like stuff other than math, if you want to ask about anything, I'm down to be reached daily math. Podcast Host 47:14 Yeah. Well, the show notes are going to be packed with links. I can tell you that much. But man, it's been fantastic chat. And thank you so much. Actually, before you go, what would be your final parting advice? Hamza Alsamraee Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway from high school is like a lot of people try to be good at everything. But you just have to be good at one certain thing to really provide value to the world. It's cool to be active in a lot of different areas. But really finding your one single thing, that's the best thing you can do for yourself. And hey, if you can't find that out, that's totally fine, too. And I guess my second biggest takeaway from high school is, it's not what you do inside that matters in the long run, right? Like good grades, obviously, count being involved in clubs, sports, like those are obviously good data points, you know, for your future. But really, what matters is what you explore outside, kind of have to make your own path. And you can't really follow anyone else's, because they're different people with different interests with different abilities with different circumstances. So it's scary. And it sounded scary to me to have to do a lot of stuff like for the first time, like, not a lot of Instagram math pages I can reach out to especially people who are starting out when they were very young. Not a lot of young people who wrote books. So sometimes it's like, a dark journey, right? But hey, if you're really passionate about something, I'd really recommend, just do whatever is in mind, and find new ways to bring value to the world, whether it's, you know, through outreach and education, or through innovation and starting something new or whatever it may be. Just think about the big picture and just go at it. Podcast Host Perfect. Well, thanks so much, Hamza. It's been awesome chatting. I hope students take advantage of those links in the show notes. And yeah, look forward to sharing this episode far and wide. Hamza Alsamraee Great. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I love the conversation.

Ep#1 College Chats - Former UChicago Admission Officer, Steve Han, on Putting Passion into Applications

Ep#1 Former UChicago Admission Officer, Steve Han, on Passion into Applications

🗓 FEB 3, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:16 Hello, and welcome to the first episode of the college chats podcast. It's a new series of the top of the class where we're going to be focusing on college admissions. And I'm delighted to have former US Chicago admission officer and now current Crimson senior strategist Steve Hahn with us today, Steve, welcome to college chats. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Steve Han 00:38 Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, my name is Steve. I currently live in Los Angeles, California. Previously, I've lived in New York and Korea and Florida. I went to the University of Chicago, where I graduated in 2017. With a BA in biology. I now work as with Crimson as a senior strategist. I also work as a full time actor and comedians. I do TV and commercial work. Yes. And then, in Chicago, I worked. I worked with the admissions office a lot at the University of Chicago. So I've been working there since 2013. And I read admissions from 2016 to 2018. So I help them get the classes of 2021 and 2022. That's pretty much my background. Podcast Host 01:19 And you're the the Tik Tokker. Steve Han 01:22 I am the Tik Tokker. I Tik Tok with Sam for Crimson, for Crimson as well. Podcast Host 01:28 So yeah, for students out there having a listen to the podcasts, maybe they can go ahead and listen to the tick tock, and vice versa, potentially, as well. Maybe new Tick Tock is joining us on the podcast brought over by your fame. And and I love it, I love it. I mean, what a random career path I guess you've had in terms of like studying biology, to be into the admissions office to be doing comedy. And now we're doing Tick Tock. I'm going to guess it's been a bit of a wild ride. But do you enjoy the role as being a currency strategist? Steve Han 01:57 Yeah, it's great. I always say the admissions process is like a board game that someone's mom lost the instruction manual to so no one knows how to play the game. And everyone's guessing, like, what works and what doesn't work. And my job is just to provide some clarity and provide an instruction manual, essentially, just to make it make a little bit more sense. That's essentially it. Podcast Host 02:18 I love that analogy. I think everybody's got at least one of those games lying around the house, which, you know, you're just trying to look at the cover of it, and just trying to figure out what is this game all about? Based on cover image? Right. So what are we chatting about today? What kind of topic? Do you want to delve into a little bit more? Steve Han 02:33 Yeah, I think talking a little bit more about what passion looks like, on an application. And I think that, for me, personally, as someone that's read admissions, and for me when I applied to college, you know, I, I got into, you know, a few Ivy League plus schools. So, you know, I ended up going to University Chicago, so I think, um, you know, the, the biggest thing for me is just how to indicate passion on like paper, essentially. Podcast Host 02:57 Yeah, I think it's such an interesting topic, because I think it's such a vague one as well, in many respects, like, you know, students are often told follow your passions, and who knows exactly what that is, or how to then express it in an application, I think super important. So from your side of things, yeah. How does passion come across in an application and what students can do to make sure that they're presenting their quote, unquote, passion in the best way possible? Steve Han 03:21 Yeah. So yeah, it is totally a phrase that we hear all the time words. Yeah, students are told, and it's hard from young age to know what your passions are. Because you're, you're, you know, you're only 16 1718. And you haven't lived as much life as like, you know, someone like you, you were I have, for example, and it's just, it's hard to pinpoint that. So I think a big a big misconception that a lot of students have about the admissions process is that they have to be, like amazing at everything that they'd like 10,000 things right. They think that they have to be like a math competition star, but they also have to be Allstate orchestra. And they also have to No, there's just there's this misconception about like, everything that goes into being a stellar applicant. And I think something to keep in mind is that an admissions office is not making a class of well rounded students. They're making a well rounded class of stellar students. Right? That's the main thing, right? is that it's a Do you play Pokemon? Podcast Host 04:14 I have dabbled in Pokemon. Yes. Okay. Steve Han 04:17 I use this metaphor, because I do mostly work with like stem thirds, which is my brother, brother. That's me. Yeah, I always thought that right? If you are listening to this, and you're a Pokemon fan, but you know, we're not making like an Ash Ketchum, like the lead of the TV show, or make who has like one of every type of Pokemon we're making like an OBE for or like, like a gym or making like, you have to just like being specialized helps you in this case, right? Which doesn't mean like, you can't be good at a bunch of things. That's not what we're saying. If you are the kind of person that is well rounded like that, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but don't feel the pressure to do a bunch of different things. Because what passion ends up looking like on application is that it really comes out in your essays more than anything because you can write almost anything to like look good and activity list or a resume or whatnot, because it's just listing things. But in your essays, it really comes across when someone when a student is really passionate about a topic or really excited about a topic, it is way more enjoyable for me as a reader to read it. But it also just gives us a chance for adding three dimensionality to an essay or to an application. Because otherwise, you know, if you look at me, for example, you know, in high school, I was a math star, I didn't also orchestrated varsity swimming, I was like, pretty like, good at a lot of different things. But you know, if you took my statistics, there's a lot of students that probably look like me across the country, my school, even my city. And the thing that added like flavor and color and texture to my application, were my essays, right, where I have a sense of humor. So my essays, not only one of my essays was serious, but the rest of them were all, you know, like, pretty facetious and light hearted. So, you know, when I used to bring students into a room to like, argue for their case, in the admissions process, I would never refer to them as like, by their test score, or their grades or whatever. It was always like, oh, remember that kid that wrote about XYZ, right? My favorite essay I still ever read from you, Chicago was this essay that you would never thought the student would have written this essay It was about. His application was like very stem focused. He had done a lot of research, like a lot of math sciences. But his essay, the question that year was like, combined to historical figures, or pop culture figures or whatever make like, write us a story about this new person's biography. And we got a lot of like, fine answers for that one. But he was my favorite one, because he wrote about, he combined, Lil Kim, the rapper with Kim Jong moon. So it was low Kim Jong moon, and it was this, it was really it was so it was just stupid is the best way to put it. It was so good. So funny. So you know, and his passion. Ultimately, what we found through the essay was he's a really big into pop culture, like he was a quizbowl star. And his position, I guess, on the on the clinical team was pop culture, even though you can't really write about that an activity list. So it became very evident to us that that was just as passion. So passion doesn't have to have like, I think that's another thing is that students think that there needs to be like an external metric of success for passion. And that's not the case at all right, you're able to quote you, you can have qualitative metrics of success that you define internally for an essay. So yeah, that was a long way of saying, you know, passion really comes across in your essay. So write about things that actually are of interest to you. Because a lot of essays we get our, as an admissions office reader is, you know, a lot of them are like, pretty, are they just, they lack passion. So a lot of them are read in such a way where they're like, my name is this, I am interested in business, you know, they list their resume out essentially, under or their activity list, which we recommend not doing on your essay, it should be a chance to show another facet of your application. So yeah, I think like, allow something that's actually of interest to you, whether you're serious or silly, or whatever, in between, like, showcase that on paper. Podcast Host 07:44 Yeah, I think passion is such an interesting topic, particularly for students, as you said, they might not have necessarily had the chance to do some of the things that they might be passionate about. So say, for instance, as a student who's really passionate about astrophysics, or building cars, or whatever it might be, but at school, they might not have had like, the opportunity to go out and actually do those things as yet. So most of their passion would be based on either their readings of other people who are building cars, and those kinds of things. Is that still legit passion if the student can show that through their essays and extracurriculars? Steve Han 08:17 Yeah, of course. I mean, I think another thing that students forget is that the stellar cases that you see in the news and whatnot, they they compare themselves to those students who are like on Shark Tank at the age of 16, or Yeah, you know, are Olympians or whatever. And one really important thing to remember is that an admissions office is really hyper cognizant, most of the time about barriers of access their barriers of entry, you know, knowing the difference between like access and equity for, you know, a student coming from x area versus y area, right? Like, you know, we take that into account 100%, because we that's why we asked for a lot of other forms that you have to submit because, again, your school gives us a school report. So there's, there's a lot of reasons for that, so that it gives us understanding. So just because you want to be a you know, an astronaut one day, but you haven't done like a NASA training program, as a high schooler doesn't mean that we're not going to like MIT will accept you, right? There are a lot of ways to engage passion beyond just what ultimately our points of access to like, you know, points of privilege or whatnot, right. So especially nowadays, I think the conversation is way more moving towards equity versus equality, equity rather than equality. And so, you know, for a student if, if you're worried about your passion, not necessarily being as, like I mentioned earlier, a quantitative metric of success. Don't worry, there's a lot of ways to qualify that explain that add texture to your application to be able to showcase it in a different kind of way. I mean, for me, for example, I really loved comedy for a long time. I never knew I could do comedy professionally in any kind of capacity. But I showcase my interest in comedy and pop culture as well by writing by every single one of my essays. And that just showed up for me even though I had never done like an MVC fellowship right and never done like I wrote 30 rock, the TV show you have in a lot of my essays. Even though like I'd never done a page internship, but nothing in my application would scream, this guy should go into comedy one day except for my essays. But you know, that's when I talked to my admissions officer. He was like, yeah, we remember you. I was like the funny, like the random funny kid from Florida. You know? Podcast Host 10:14 Nice, nice, nice. Well, one of my other questions on passion is, I think a lot of students confuse being really good at a subject with their passion as well. So they might say, Well, I'm really good at maths. But they might not necessarily like love it, they only enjoy it, because they're really good at it. So yeah. Is that something that an admissions officer is able to tell the difference about? And if a student is really good at something, but isn't yet really passionate about it? How do you perhaps convert that into a passion? Or what would be your recommendations for a student? Who's in that situation? Who says, Well, I'm really good at a whole lot of subjects, but I can't really see anything that I'm necessarily passionate about right now. Steve Han 10:54 Yeah, I mean, well, first off, what's easier to remember in college that like most universities that this the students that are looking towards probably aren't like trade schools where you would only be doing like one thing so keep in mind when you're when you're good at a subject that will help you in college even if you're not necessarily going to major in it because generally a college course breakdown is a 34 classes, at least American universities. A third of your courses are your major a third are your general electives. And then third are general requirements. And a third are your your electives. You have like room in your schedule. And part of it is that you have to be able to have a lot of diversity of thoughts in your course load. So just because you're good at something doesn't mean that it's going to stop as soon as you go to college academically speaking at least right extracurricular Li, that's a different story. But you know, I'm definitely that won't stop in terms of how to convert something like not like being good at math, but not necessarily being passionate about it. I asked a student that pursued not and I say this as someone that I liked it not competitions from third grade till the day I I missed my high school graduation to go to a math competition. Like I was doing it till the summer after I graduated, I was doing math competitions for my school that my team, so I get it, but I'm not like, I'm not gung ho about math, I just I know I'm good at it. I realized maybe too late on in my high school career that I was passionate about winning, which is not not not a good enough reason to do something. But it's not about winning. And I knew that the easiest way for me to get there was math, right? So for me, having gone through it, and not being able to explore that I challenge the student into thinking, you know, if, if you are good at math, let's say but and you continue to do it, but you're not necessarily passionate about it. Think about like, what about the experience of math is deriving joy for you from it? Because it might not be the math itself. It might be like the camaraderie, it might be the competitive aspect, whatever, how can you dissect your experience in this certain thing into a discrete unit, take that out, isolate it and think about what other realms are there for me to explore as a high school student that still allow me to derive joy from this like specific facet of something that I'm good at. Right. So in math again, for me, I really enjoyed winning, and I enjoyed the camaraderie right. So for me, I ended up doing more like Student Government volunteer work, too, right. And that ended up being a really like, big joy of mine as well, my senior year of high school. So, you know, it's, I think it's a lot easier said than done. But you can find points of joy derivation, I guess, from things that you're good at. And then once you are able to identify that zoom in and magnify that and then find where passion can kind of filter through that lens. Podcast Host 13:21 Yeah, I think that's a such a good tip. So yeah, it's kind of like not necessarily focusing on the big picture here is kind of like focusing on the niche type of thing. Like why do you enjoy math? Is it not necessarily because of the problem solving or that kind of stuff? Maybe it is, you know, the fact that you enjoy sitting next to the person in class, what's that connection that you have with that person, and explore that a little bit more explore the, you know, the winning side of things as you did and rescind your graduation, to enter Mexico, which is pretty cool. Okay, so we've explored passions, and I think we could explore this a lot more. For students who are interested in wanting to explore their passion, little bit more, maybe they could, you know, request a academic consultation with an academic advisor, I'll put a link down in the show notes for that. But let's get into the top tips for students to stand out to be the top of the class, we've covered a few bits and pieces already, but through your experiences, which are many and varied, what would be one or two of your top tips for students to stand out? Steve Han 14:16 Yeah, my first top tip would be start practicing your personal statement early, like start practicing writing that that 650 word personal statement limit that exists in the US at least is really niche and hard to hit naturally. And a lot of students are really bad at talking about themselves, like surprisingly. So I mean, I can't relate to that because I talk about myself way too much. But you know, for if you are bad at talking to yourself, that's okay. And that's actually probably good and your mental health is probably much more stable than mine. But what I will say is, you know, when you are, if you are bad talking about yourself, you need to practice being able to advocate for yourself and talking about yourself and answering a question that is about you, right, a lot of admissions questions aren't trying to trick you, but students get really tripped up in them, right. So for example, a really common essay ends up like is asking the question of writing about someone that's really inspired you or your that you look up to. It's a really common essay topic. And most students end up writing the entire essay about like this teacher that they'd hoped was amazing and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's great. But this school is not admitting that person, the school is admitting you so you have to remember how to bring it back to you. Right? So is that answering the question? Why are they a good teacher answer the question, why are they a good teacher? For you? Why are they specifically a good teacher? For you? What are the qualifications that you need to a teacher to meet to be able to be satisfactory to you? And why did they go above and beyond that right for you. So being able to bring it back to you is a really hard skill to hone in. But the students that have been practicing personal statements or writing an if statements are you know about themselves tend to do better in the essay arena. So that will always help a student. That's number one. And number two, if you're listening to this in ninth and 10th grade, my biggest recommendation is invest in yourself and allow yourself to go out for things that might scare you and build a diversity of interests for yourself. Because you are one allowing yourself to pick and choose from the best options for yourself when you get older when you are busier, and you have to hone in and go more depth rather than breadth. But to you know it, it just allows you to embed yourself so that when you apply as a senior, you have four years of experience to pull from your four years of experience to talk about your four years of experience going into university so that if you were to continue it, for example, you already have a plethora of experience as a first year rather than you know, needing to catch up as a first year. And I mean, so yeah, yeah. So invest yourself both with extracurriculars and practicing writing. Podcast Host 16:30 Steve, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom on the college chats today. It's been awesome having you on. As a quick reminder, you can request a free one hour consultation with a local Crimson academic advisor, there is a link in the show notes. And that will help you get you started on your journey to the world's top universities. And I hope students have learned a little bit more about how to put passion onto paper for their application. Steve Han 16:53 Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

#31 Starting a Million Dollar Investment Company in High School

🗓 JAN 30, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex cork, and today I chat with California based student Koki Mashita. Koki is the co founder of Lallic Partners, an investment firm managing more than a million dollars. We chat about how an interest in Bitcoin as a 12 year old became a fully fledged investment company, what he looks for in stocks, and how he turned his age into an advantage when pitching to potential investors. Let's chat with Koki Mashita. Koki, welcome to the Top of the Class, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Koki Mashita 00:50 Hi, thank you for having me. My name is Koki, I go to a boarding school in California. I'm a junior in high school. And I first started my business when I was 12. Now I'm working on an investment firm and a startup who help make reusable tampon applicators. Podcast Host 01:08 Okay, that's an interesting business for a young man to get involved in how'd you get involved in? Koki Mashita 01:14 Yeah, so me and my friend, we were in a startup incubator, and he's really like, into the scientific field. And we were like, what kind of product we can create, that can actually like help the environment because we were also really, like, worried about like, how we're polluting the environment with like plastics. And when we were researching was a lot about like, throwing away plastic applicators. Because, you know, I obviously had no idea. And when I came across it, I was like, I was really inspired to do something about it. And then now, we're trying to start a Kickstarter. Next month, I'm making a reusable tampon applicator. So it's pretty simple. And, you know, people can reuse it without like throwing the plastic away every time. Podcast Host 02:00 Right? Okay, that's fantastic. And talk to us about the startup incubator. So for those of us who might not know much about what happens at a startup incubator, how do you get involved? And what do you do when you're there? Koki Mashita 02:12 Yeah, so this startup incubator is actually really useful. I went to two actually, one was over the summer, it was for high school students. And then one was more flexible. I like the flexible part. Because it was more like I find my friend that I already know. And we go into this startup incubator, which I found on LinkedIn, actually, I think it's also really important to start networking as early as possible on LinkedIn. And then I found I found this guy called Patrick. And he introduced me to this to his incubator, and we joined for a few weeks, he actually learned a lot about like, how to create an idea first, how to develop that idea. And then how to like, expand with like, press in, you know, Kickstarter. And so it was really interesting. And then, yeah, so we go through that. It's like, it's like a class, online class. And then, yeah, after that, we can actually start making a company, Podcast Host 03:11 what were some of your main, or how big takeaway moments that you got from that startup incubator, that you were able to then apply to what you're doing now? And do you think, you know, has probably been one of the main reasons that you're able to now launch into a Kickstarter next month? Koki Mashita 03:25 Yeah. So actually, the most important part is believing what you make, and also having an a smaller team, I think with like, dedicated people. So I think that's actually really important. So before, in my investment firm, I had 15 employees, a lot of them were like analysts, and we were, and we weren't, like very effective, because we were just, you know, doing random stuff. It wasn't like properly organized. And so when I learned about it in the, in the incubator, we actually cut our employees into six, and like, mainly for people. And it actually worked really nicely, because we can have meetings all the time. And we can always like talk, and we can communicate and communication is really important. And then we can also find four people that are really dedicated, and like really inspirational. Podcast Host 04:18 And those other four people, are they students as well. Koki Mashita 04:20 Yeah, yeah, they're my age. And also, I think when having a startup when you're like, really young, I think it's really important to have fun, especially because you have school and you can get easily distracted. So um, yeah, all my coworkers are like really close friends. And I have a lot of fun during like the meetings. Podcast Host 04:43 Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You make that point because in the other interviews that I've done as well, where students are looking at creating organizations with other students, like student run organizations, or whether it be like a company or whether it be a not for profit, or whatever it might be. I have heard that a lot of students do struggle with that idea that As the team expands, there's you know, that periphery of like the 70 to 100% of people like the people who joined 70 to 100%, but then just, you know, usually joining for the resume padding, they're not necessarily joining to actually have an active involvement in the organization that they've joined, that they're joining mainly for the title. What was it like when you kind of had that moment? And then realize you had to cut X number of people 15, down to six? Was that a tough conversation to have? Or did those people kind of know what was coming? Koki Mashita 05:31 Yeah, so for us, we're just honest. And we were like, we know, like, you're kind of doing for college, and you know, you haven't been participating, which is a huge part, when it becomes evident. After they join, they don't really participate. You know, they don't like they miss meetings and stuff. So then we just email them, be clear about it, and then, you know, and then they will actually agree, for the most part. So then we were able to cut our team. Podcast Host 06:00 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. Also, I think, from the perspective of how do you create a company with staff as such, like you've turned your friends into colleagues? You know, when I go for a job at a company, for instance, they will typically ask me, what's your experience, and then I'll have to have a couple years of experience to point me in a particular direction for a particular role, whether that be marketing, or whether it be design or whatever it might be, when you're working with students who might not have much experience, or you literally just putting people in roles based on what they want to do. Koki Mashita 06:32 Yeah, that is actually a really good question. Because we were just talking about that, like a week ago in my in our meeting. So as we like, manage financial savings for other people, which is actually like, really risky. And so when I started by myself, I chose these three people, we actually had experienced, actually, we started investing in freshman year. So me and my two other friends, Charlie, and Eugene, we were just investing for fun. And we were like, Oh, it's actually really like profitable. And we can actually grow money without working out of like, a part time job, you know, because a lot of people, we see that they go, they go work for a part time job, we actually made honestly, more than the people working at part time jobs by sitting in our dorm rooms, because we were in boarding school. And that was really intriguing. And we made money while we were sleeping. So we found that ideas fascinating. So we just kept investing for three years. And then in 2020, when COVID hit, I was like, Oh, we should use our experience to do something. And we're actually pretty good at our performance. And so, you know, we had some experience. But one crucial point I was also looking at, was if they're actually invested into the idea, yeah, because it was cool, you know, people can get distracted really easily. And although experience is important, I think dedication is the most important because when they're dedicated, we can try to teach each other, we actually took like a lot of these courses like corporate finance Institute courses. And so dedication, I think, is really important. Podcast Host 08:10 Yeah, at the end of the day, like, it doesn't matter exactly what people's skills are, when you're in high school, it's more about Yeah, are you willing to keep doing it once exam start, because if people are going to be able to continue even managing a little bit of time to this kind of, you know, other company or whatever you're setting up, then that's super important if they just drop the ball completely, and they're like, I'm out, I got to focus on exams. I think a lot of students do that. Right. They get involved in extracurriculars. And as soon as the exam start, they just completely say, I'm study and nothing else. And I think that's very, very difficult to keep them involved in a team where other people are saying, No, I'll do study, but I'll continue to work on the company or whatever I'm doing at the same time. So I think it's at the very start trying to work out. Are you one of those people who will continue to manage it even during exams or not? And I think that's a that's a pretty good way to judge. I've got another question about starting investing. How old were you when you actually started to do investing? And what were you investing in? Koki Mashita 09:06 I was, well, I think I bought some Bitcoin that was my first investment. And it was totally just like, a gamble. Like, I researched 30 minutes about Bitcoin. And then I was like, Oh, this is nice. I bought it. I mean, now I'm making money off like $300 worth of Bitcoin. But that's what got me started. I was like, really excited. I was checking my phone every single minute outside of class, sometimes even in class, just looking at Bitcoin prices. And that was like really fine. And so at that time, I was in Singapore. And then when I moved to California, and in high school, me and my friends, were also interested in investing. So at the start, it was a lot of like, guessing we weren't as motivated to do a lot of research. So we kind of guessed, and we actually got lucky. And that actually, like drove us to do more. work. And so we started like actually researching what investing is. And we started doing due diligence and then investing. Podcast Host 10:07 Yeah, I love the start with Bitcoin. I know that there's been some questions that you've been getting from other students is like, how do you start when you don't have much capital? You must have only started as you said, like 300 bucks. Is that what you invested in Bitcoin at the very start? Koki Mashita 10:21 Yeah, I use my whole savings. Oh, wait, no, but so when I was around 12, I started this company called co lab in Singapore. So we were buying a used tech, like computers, I actually bought like 10 used MacBook Airs from school, because they were like, kind of like giving it away. And so I collected them, I cleaned them, I posted them on the internet, and then I would get buyers, and then I would go meet them. And so I had some money of that. So with that money I use for investment. So Bitcoin was my choice of investment. And then from there, of course, $300, even if it doubles, it's still $600 investing, you know, we actually need quite a lot of money to make, you know, substantial profits. And so to do that, of course, I had some family help. So my dad gave me $1,000. And so I have to, like, prove myself, right, because I was just, you know, guessing. And so he loaned me the $1,000. And we made this contract, which is really important, I think we I still do it, when he gives me money. And the profit I make, I take 60% of the profit, and my dad takes 40%. So he would have incentive to invest more when I make a lot of money. So this is actually like, really great. I like it better than just taking all the profit, because I would just feel bad for my dad. Podcast Host 11:48 Yeah. So you're got a kind of early stage investment company in a way with your dad, where he made his money in you, and he's expecting a profit. And you're taking the fees, I guess, as well, in this case, your phase are 60%. High, but it's still 40%, which is, which is great. Yeah, that must have been a really big kind of moment for you when you're like, Alright, you know, now I've got to get to work, I've got to make enough money for me to kind of make sense of this $1,000 loan, if I only get 60% of the profit. That's not a huge amount, but it gives me a bit more incentive to work and your dad's kind of like keeping an eye on you as well, right? Because he's interested in what kind of profits you're turning to, in terms of the research side of things, because this is something that has always befuddled me. I'm still like a 12 year old Kogi kinda like reading up on a stock for half an hour and be like, Yeah, sounds good to me have put some money into it. And there we go. So when you're researching a stock, or when you're researching investment, what are you looking for? Koki Mashita 12:49 For me, when I research I look at like, you know, I look at companies that are not written about and like Motley Fool, you know, a lot of these news articles on Market Watch. And then I find some of this company, like, for example, I found beyond me, and I was like, so intrigued as I bought an IPO. So this beyond me, company creates fake meat. So what I would do with beyond me, is I would look at the first of all the financials. So I find financials really important. So how much assets how much cash they have, and how much liabilities they have. And then there's this thing called current ratio, you look at the ratio between, and then what I actually did for this company, is I ordered beyond me to my house, and then I ate them if it's actually like, edible. Yeah. And when I ate it, it was actually really good. And so I was like, Oh, this can work. And with like, partnerships with like, McDonald's, I, you know, if that could happen, and like in countries, it would really work. And for me, my kind of expertise was knowing what Gen Z, like my generation actually interested into. And so beyond me, is actually quite interesting, because, you know, it's a vegetarian diet. And a lot of my friends I saw was go going vegetarian, which I thought I wouldn't do that. But it was really interesting. And so I saw that firsthand. And so, you know, I believed in what other people are doing. And so I kind of bought in with, of course, other research. And so I would read a lot of other analysts on research is actually available online for free. So I think reading a lot is really important. And then I found that stock, and then I bought it. Podcast Host 14:35 You bought it for around 65. But at IPO Is that right? Koki Mashita 14:39 Yes. 70. And then I sold it at 220. And then now I bought back at 120. A week ago, and now it's gone up actually. Podcast Host 14:47 It's gone up 17% just in the last day know that? Koki Mashita 14:51 Yeah. I knew that. Podcast Host 14:52 That's why you bought it up in the podcast, right? Because you're thinking, Hey, this is a stock that's doing pretty well. I mean, like it's so it's awesome. So you have at least tripled your money in some cases, for extra money when you sold it at 220. It's interesting you bought back in as well. But yeah, I think it's one of those things that stock investing i think is a pretty legit part time job once you get a bit of a handle on it, and you know exactly what you're doing, like my first part time job was probably the exact opposite of beyond meat. I worked at McDonald's. And as I'm sure a lot of other students have done, you know, fast food or retail, those kinds of things. Do you feel like what you're doing now is helping you understand what you want to do after school as well. Koki Mashita 15:30 Going into investing, I kind of thought of it as like a skill that I would use throughout my life. Because you know, financial, like management isn't everyone's lives. And I think no matter what job you have, you have to keep track of your money. And like invest. I thought it is a lifetime skill. But now, for my future, I think these stocks can also really helped me because I'm really interested into like economics as well. But the thing about stocks is actually like builds your character in terms of patience, and being able to like manage stressful times, which is really important. Because patience is really important. Even if stock goes down. If I believe in that stock, I have to wait a year or two years for it to go up. And so it really taught me about patience. Podcast Host 16:21 What skills do you need to be a good stock investor? I mean, you mentioned patience is like more of a characteristic or a quality rather than necessarily a skill. But when you're looking at stock investing from a skills perspective, which ones do you think would be advantageous for students, if they were to look into this kind of field and say, yes, there's something I want to do. Have you really good at maths is what I'm trying to say. Koki Mashita 16:44 And my morning school, like everyone's good or not, I'm on the not so good side. But being able to look at numbers is really important. But knowing what company does best in like an environment we have now is really important. And like being able to be shown like 200 pages of research, and then being able to dissect what's important off that really quickly is really important. For example, when you when I research a stock, I look at like 10, KS, and like earnings and stuff, it's quite long. So being able to speed through it, and knowing the important parts are really important. And also like understanding the market, like being able to proactively look at news is really important. Podcast Host 17:30 So when you're going through those reports, how long did it take you to get good at knowing what to look for? And did you do any learning or you said you did a couple of financial courses and those kinds of things? Were those the kind of things that helped you to understand what to look for? Or was it YouTube videos, or just experience or a combination of all of them? Koki Mashita 17:48 It's very unprofessional. But YouTube is actually really great. YouTube taught me how to invest how to like look at like, companies, they teach you how to read tenncare reports. And so when I first started, it took me like five hours just to read one. But when you just keep reading and reading and reading the same thing all over, because there's a fixed format of Yep, 10 Ks. And so you get used to it. Podcast Host 18:14 YouTube channel recommendations, what's your favorite one do you think? Koki Mashita 18:17 Learn to Invest - he's a he's a great value investor. So you focus on margin of safety, which is kind of like comparing the actual value of a company. Like let's say target's worth $10 per share, but it's actually trading at $5, then there's that 50% safety margin, Podcast Host 18:38 Right? So Learn to Invest might link that in the show notes as well. And what's your favorite metric for predicting a company's success? Koki Mashita 18:45 For long term, I wouldn't look at valuations too much, I would look at like, what the potential of that business to bring up beyond meat again, it has a lot of potential because tastes can improve, more people might go vegetarian as the world becomes more like fragile, so people will be more concerned. So looking at that, like 10, year 20 year even prospects, because the stock market always tries to predict the future. So even if you predict for 10 years, 20 years growth, your returns might come in two years. And then mid to short term, I would look at like intrinsic value, which is the actual value of the company, or like technical analysis, which is kind of like looking at charts and then looking at different link signals less definitely shorter. Podcast Host 19:33 It's something that you've probably been able to apply to your organization lolich partners. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. Because there's one thing to be investing your own money in. It's a completely different thing to be investing other people's money. So talk me through the initial founding of Lallic Partners, why you chose the name, etc. I think that's interesting. And then how did you start getting investors to invest in high school students? Koki Mashita 19:58 Okay, so the lolich name It's actually like a knockoff of Lilith and the flower. I chose that because like flowers bloom early, and we were kind of like early in investing. And so we call that Lallic partners, LLC. So then, you know, it's easier to Google when you search in Lallic Partners. And when we started off, we were like, $5,000. And then in 2020, March, when we first formed, we were like, 50,000, 70,000. Podcast Host 20:28 where's this money coming from? Is Koki Mashita 20:30 that coming from your investments? Or is that coming from other people, mostly from our investments, but from also, like, our parents were, you know, we build some trust. And we still had that 60 40%. And so from there, we formed our website and everything. And so we started finding the clients. So right now we're at about 1.0 5 million. And so what we did to get there was getting a pitch done, and getting a booklet done. And so we had to register as an LLC, and get a lawyer first, which was pretty costly, and to make sure everything was legal, because the last thing that clients want is part of like an illegal organization. You know, that's what we did. And then once we did that, we were just focused on performance, nothing else. And so we chose on a relative turns with focusing on the information ratio and focusing on performance. So the information ratio is comparing ourselves to a benchmark, like the s&p 500, and then also comparing the volatility to the benchmark. And so once the performance gets better than declines, when we reach out to them, they would be like, wow, because for us, we need to build credibility, we have like, zero or like negative credibility, because we're young, but on so once you build that performance, it kind of adds credibility. And the big part actually, is, it's kind of like when adults invest is kind of like, supporting the youth. And like, when we're investing, we would say, you know, we're really interested in investing. And when you invest in us, you'd help us grow as like investors and build our future, Podcast Host 22:11 you're kind of pitching it to the adults, or the, you know, parents, the group, and that kind of stuff that like, you can put your money into some other kind of young gun, Hot Shot type of thing. But if you invest with us, you're helping our future, you know, you're getting them in their fields, right to get him right in their fields to feel like not, don't invest in another guy's, you know, next BMW or whatever, invest in our future. Koki Mashita 22:35 Yeah. And whatever, like, intriguing point was, we know, the future, and we are actually the future. So you know, a lot of hedge funds are, like, really like, to be honest, they're, like, 6065, the managers. And so we were like, you know, we know the future, like we, you know, literally, like live next to them. So why don't you invest in us and like, that means you would also invest in the future, because we would invest into like, upcoming, you know, companies that can derive off Gen Z's like beyond me, Podcast Host 23:09 if you were talking to a student who wanted to do the same. Who wanted to start up their own investment company, what do you think would be your main pieces of advice that you'd give them to be able to do that successfully? Koki Mashita 23:19 Yeah, so the investment side is actually, I'd say, easier, because it's less like risky, when we're doing a company, you know, seed investments are in a much more risky, it can be all gone. But once we have some performance, I think we, you actually need performance to raise any money. Once you do that, you need to just reach out and like talk to like, anyone, if you said like a word to them before you have to reach out and like, even if they like reject you, I think it's important to keep reaching out to other people, because that's what I did. I used to spam 200, LinkedIn, Goldman Sachs people just to try to get an internship. You know, everyone said, No, but I think it's really important to not to give up. Podcast Host 24:05 And then on the company side, like actually building and creating a company, what would you say are some of the kind of more practical piece of advice you'd give to students? I mean, obviously, you had to make it legal. So you're getting a lawyer, and it was pretty important. But is there anything else that you would recommend for students who are wanting to set up their own investment company, Koki Mashita 24:24 for just building a company or like a startup? I think I was kind of being optimistic at first. So that's why I failed a lot. So one company I was trying to make was kind of like social media, but for summer camp owners who are looking for, you know, summer camp students. And we went to like the San Diego national like summer camp conference, and we realized that it's a lot harder than we thought it was actually like making a community online is really difficult. And so we realized, we need to be more realistic because you know, we're at Cool, and we can't be that motivated. If you know, we're gonna be done with a project in like five years. Yeah. So the thing is, you know, keeping your imaginations a little limited, I don't like to say that. But to be honest, that's what I did. And then once you have some like type of product, people actually want to support you. It's not that hard. People want to support, you know, high school students doing on startup middle school students making something that they like, they would actually support that. And so you can, you know, start raising literal money from everyone, then you can go from there. Podcast Host 25:38 Yeah, I think the important thing for me as well, having heard your story is, before you start an investment company is have performance and know what you're doing know what you're talking about, know the lingo. And if you are going to ask for other people to invest their money in you be able to show off what you've been doing, what your performance has been, what typical strategy you apply those types of things as well, in terms of the strategy side of things. Are you when you pitch allelic? Do you say that you're a rather aggressive company or that you invest in companies that are more up and coming kind of more IPOs? That type of thing? For people who don't know IPO? initial public offerings? please correct me if I'm wrong, cokie, I think you know this better than I do. But basically, when a company first lists their company on the stock exchange, and goes from a private company to a public company, they launch an IPO. So is that generally what you're doing? When you are pitching the company, you are trying to give me a bit of a sense of what strategy you typically use? Koki Mashita 26:37 Yeah, we do. Say that we like invest into upcoming stocks. But we but then when saying that, we realized, we kind of sound like people that don't know anything, and just investing into any IPO, because it's risky. And you know, you see it go up 100% in a day, you know, it seems that we're just gambling with their money. So we said, we balanced out that volatility, with more like safer assets, like blue chip companies that are part of the Fortune 500, we try to check the s&p 500 to make our performance more stable. So we buy like Microsoft, Costco, and large companies to show that we can generate like safe returns, like, you know, we need to keep up with like ratios like Sharpe ratio information ratio, to show the volatility. And so when saying that we can, you know, perform, like s&p 500, but a little better, then people are safe, because we kind of know that s&p 500, you know, on average returns, at least like 10%. And so people are like, not too scared to invest in us that can lose, you know, 30 k to $0. So, I think that helps us a lot like managing risk. Podcast Host 27:53 Yeah, I mean, I guess that's why people put money with people who are watching the stock market more regularly, is to avoid when that crash starts to happen. If it does happen, that you hopefully will know that people looking after your money and can manage that risk for you. Speaking of which, how do you manage your school on top of this? Because, in my mind, as you were checking bitcoin price fairly regularly, when you were 12 years old, it does require like a significant amount of attention. I mean, so how do you kind of stay on top of it, and make sure that you're managing school and managing the company and people's money at the same time. Koki Mashita 28:29 So I think, for one part, when, you know, schools became online, and I go to school in LA, so it's still online for quite a long time, it was really helpful, because I had a lot of free time. So in between classes, I would research but when in like school, like when physical school, I would sometimes go on my computer during class and check on like a stock and because you know, the mic gets opened during class. So I'm, like, pretty stressed about it. But I try to stay off that the most time I have is that weekend side sacrifice sometimes on like, you know, hanging out with my friends, I still prioritize that. I lose some sleep in between, but the weekend allows me to just, you know, focus on one thing and dive into it. And then, um, yeah, that's how I manage manage school and work. Podcast Host 29:24 And so you do a lot of Yeah, so you do a lot of writing on the weekends, then. Koki Mashita 29:28 Yeah, yeah. And during the week, I'd say in the mornings, but yeah, for people that like, wouldn't like you know, be checking the stock market or like researching all the time. I've been saying that. It's just much better to put it in, put your money into like an s&p 500 because that's just historically performs better, and you don't really have to worry about it. Podcast Host 29:50 What do your friends say about you running your own investment company? Is it like a normal thing your boarding school, or are you guys like is everyone look It used to be that the multimillionaires in the future. Koki Mashita 30:04 They think I'm crazy. So I guess it's like not as crazy because three of my other friends in the same school work in Lallic Partners. But when I first started, they were like, I'm definitely going to fail. Because you know, I don't know much about investing. And when people tell me is crazy, and like, when I sometimes declined an invitation to go out on the weekend, they were kind of like, I guess, kind of mad or like, but I had to deal with that first. But now people don't see me as that crazy anymore. I think when people started, like companies in high school, we're kind of like a little bit crazy. I think, to be honest, we need to be crazy to like start a company in high school. Like it totally doesn't make sense, right? Because we don't have any experience. We don't have any money. Yes, I'm a little bit crazy on that side. Podcast Host 30:55 Well, yeah, but when it works, it works. Right? And even if it doesn't work, you would have fantastic experience. But where are you at right now? And what you think, you know, Lallic Partners could be and where you want it to be. Koki Mashita 31:05 Yeah. So when I started, I had an optimistic goal of having a million dollars by 2021. Summer. But luckily, we reached that earlier, but I don't know. But I'm not like satisfied. So you know, we keep on setting higher goals. And I think that motivates us. Having those are really important. And especially like, deadlines are really important. Because when I'm working with friends, it's hard to keep an account and if they're actually like doing work, and so we set up deadlines so that I don't procrastinate because I procrastinate a lot. Right, yeah. So you're you're trying to keep the company moving, even though everything's going on at school and Coronavirus and everything else, which is super important. So yeah, that sounds like you're well on track, though you certainly a million dollars before summer, Queen 21. But I failed a lot. And I think I think it's really important to like not give up. And I think my dad told me this. And this is like, the best thing is said to me is like starting a company, when you're young, like you literally have nothing to lose. Yeah. And so you fail 100 times, you're just wasting, not wasting, but you're spending time and you're gaining that experience, you can honestly put it on your college application also. But when you fail, you don't have to have any bills to pay. And especially what's interesting, when raising money for a startup, we recently raised money for the reasonable applicator. And on our expense report. There's $0 for salary and salaries, you know, first startup, it can take like $60,000 per year, we're at zero. So we were able to raise small money, but use that money for a lot more than what adult like startups can. Podcast Host 32:53 Yeah, is that what need to pay salary straightaway. And you're saying, well, we're at a boarding school and like our parents are paying our phase at the moment to where sweet men have to pay salaries at the moment, which is awesome. So you're able to kind of any money that you raise for that company, you're able to put directly into like r&d or advertising and those kinds of things, right? Yeah, yeah. Which is awesome. How easy or hard is it to let go of an idea once you've kind of tried it. And you obviously thought a lot about like the summer camp idea, and you really wanted it to work. But how hard is it to let go of an idea and be like, Oh, that's not working, I want to move on to the next. Koki Mashita 33:29 I think it's very easy for me, especially as like high school students, I think that's a really like good point to us. Because we were able to switch to different ideas really quickly. Because, you know, we don't have much bills to pay again. And we don't need that stability that a lot of adults need. And so for us when you know, we went to that conference, it's gonna be like 100 K to build our platform, we were like, Okay, this is not happening. Let's just cut our losses there. Because as the time goes on, and this, we just spend more time trying to be attached myself to this idea. I'm just wasting time. So to kind of deal with this sense of loss, I tried coming up with new ideas. And yeah, so it's kind of like a pivot. Podcast Host 34:16 Yeah, I really love that. I like that idea of cutting your losses, and that you fill the void with even more ideas. I think there's a lot of students who and adults and whoever, just anybody really, who when they attach themselves to an idea, and they get really excited by an idea when they hit a roadblock. It's kind of that it's a bit of, I guess, an interesting moment for people because in life, you get told, you know, don't give up like just keep going put your nose to the grindstone and like, try again, try again. And then there's other people who are like no, economics says opportunity costs. If you keep focusing on this thing too much, you're going to waste more money. It's not going anywhere and you could miss the opportunity to do something else. So yeah, how do you go way up that mental side vein like the practical side of opportunity cost versus the mental side or that kind of thing that is celebrated all the time, which is never give up? Koki Mashita 35:09 And is a really good question, because I think never giving up is really important. But I think I interpreted it differently than what other people might have thought. I think I wasn't about like marrying one idea and seeing it till the end, which is quite economically impossible, I wouldn't be able to raise $100,000. So never giving up I think was never giving up on trying to build something, create something and then sell something that I really believed in. So in a way, when I faced this 100 k Roadblock, I kind of pivoted found a whole new idea. I didn't give up just because one idea that I spent three months on didn't work out, I tried to stay very positive when roadblocks happen, I just think what can I do? Maybe I can try to find a new idea. So I just looking for some opportunity. I haven't given up for the 100 k roadblock. Maybe I can try going over that. But I looked at other opportunities. But luckily, I found the different opportunities. So I went there instead. Podcast Host 36:18 It's kind of like not giving up on the idea of being an entrepreneur. Right. Yeah, kind of saying, you know, the, the entrepreneurial journey can take many different forms, but I'm not going to give up on that journey. I'm going to pivot and go in this direction instead. And as you said, like not marrying any one idea. And I think that's super important as well. Who are some of the people that you aspire to or some of the kind of people that you like to follow online. Koki Mashita 36:41 On Investment terms? I have a lot of people that I look up to, like Ray Dalio, Warren Buffett, they're really good investors. Podcast Host 36:51 Also, you did a totally Warren Buffett thing by ordering the beyond meat because he's always like, he's always like, if you want to know a product or service is good, go to the store, like buy the things like actually test it out. Right? Like it's no point investing in beyond meat. He didn't have actually tried it. Like if you ordered beyond meat, and it tasted terrible, you'd be like, Oh, well, I'm not gonna invest in this company. Right? But you ordered it and he was like, I was pretty good. Koki Mashita 37:13 Warren Buffett's actually a really good example of finding the in between of not giving up and also cutting losses. Because when he like, believes in, like in a company like Coke, he drinks it every day. He doesn't stop he markets for them, like every single day. But when they realize a company's not good, he kind of sells it quite easily. I think that's I admire for him. But in business terms, my dad's really inspirational. He was not doing very good in college. But he started like designing websites when he was 19. So that's the idea I got from him to start early. And the valuable lessons he taught me was the best time to to start a startup is now if you wait, you know, you're too late. Podcast Host 37:56 It's a an investor as well. I'm gonna guess he has some investments, if not in your company in elsewhere. Koki Mashita 38:01 Yeah. But he's not an investor. Podcast Host 38:03 Right. So he was just like, gave you that kind of entrepreneurial spirit. Right? Koki Mashita 38:07 Yeah, we're actually helping, like other high school students on totally for free on, like, how to invest, like how to make like reports on like investing. And then we would actually, if it's good, we would post it on our own website and stuff. Podcast Host 38:22 And so that's all on your website, or for free access, like free resources. Koki Mashita 38:25 Yeah. If they reach out to us, there's an application form. But if they get through that, we would teach everything. Podcast Host 38:32 Once. If students wanted to get in contact with you and wanted to connect with you what would be the best way, Koki Mashita 38:36 you can go to my email, or you can just search up Lallic partners, or my Instagram is Koki.mashita. Podcast Host 38:49 And then you're on LinkedIn as well? Koki Mashita 38:51 LinkedIn is just Koki Mashita. Podcast Host 38:53 Yep. Awesome. Well, I'll put some of those links in the show notes as well. And I hope people kind of, you know, listening to this. I know that man, there's been some amazing young people that I've seen online who are really into investing, and could take that leap into starting a an investment firm. And I think that's a really exciting and potential leap towards you know, replacing that part time job like you don't need to go to McDonald's or you don't need to work at retail. As a high school student. You could do something completely different and as you did, and start your own investment firm. Well, thank you so much for joining the top of the class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on and look forward to sharing this episode far and wide. Koki Mashita 39:38 Thank you so much. Podcast Host 39:38 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes. For show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#30 Starting a Podcast in High School and Creating a More Inclusive Hong Kong

🗓 JAN 27, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with Hong Kong based student Angelina. Angelina is the host and creator of the on my mind podcast and is a member of inclusivity Hong Kong. Being an international student, Angelina has been educating herself about race and diversity. We chat about her experiences in Hong Kong, how to start a podcast and the positives that can come from not knowing what you want to do after high school. Let's chat with Angelina. Hi, Angelina, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a bit about yourself? Angelina 00:50 Yes, hello. I'm glad to be on. My name is Angelina. I've come from Germany and Switzerland. And now I live in Hong Kong. I've been living here for one and a half years. And I'm currently in 11th grade doing the IB Diploma program. Podcast Host 01:08 Yeah, yeah. Well, the short synopsis of what you've been or where you've been living all this time, you're an international student in every sense of the word you've kind of lived everywhere. What do you think that has given you in terms of like, a different perspective on the world? Angelina 01:24 Yeah, that's interesting, because I think the the really the international part came in when I moved to Asia, because I think living in Europe was was obviously it was great, but it was, it didn't really offer a totally new perspective. Obviously, I met a lot of friends from around the world. And I have friends from around the world, which is always great, because you just see things from different perspectives. And like one of my friends right now, she's Swedish. My other best friend is from Turkey. And but I think living in in Asia now. One, I think it's um, this sounds kind of strange, maybe. But one of the biggest things I started becoming more aware of is, I guess, race, and where I stand on that. And it's, it's interesting, because I was never like a minority before. And obviously, I'm a privileged minority here. But it's given me a lot of insight into the the topic of race and racism, discrimination. And it's really sparked my interest in it, because especially it's, it's funny, because I, when I moved here, I got a lot of our I got some comments from some of my friends saying, Oh, that's such a white thing to do, or Oh, you're so white, which I had never gotten before. And at first it was it was a bit weird, because I was like, like, What do you mean? Like, how is this? How are they meaning this? And, yeah, so I think that that has really shaped my perspective on on the issue of race specifically? Podcast Host 02:50 Yeah, it's something that I'm sure a lot of international students in particular feel whether they are, you know, Asian students or any other ethnicity in or basically a minority within a majority population type of thing. Is it something that you feel as though as a student, you have the power to make a difference in or raise awareness of I mean, I get I feel like you tried to raise awareness of the discrimination that you're potentially feeling as a white person. Do you think people might be like, oh, Jay, sorry, you know, discriminated white people. Oh, my gosh, how sad and how tough you must must have that type of thing. Do you feel like that? Is that kind of backlash if you're trying to create change as a white person who feels discriminated against? Angelina 03:33 Yeah, I mean, I never feel discriminated against. And I'm always very careful about how I phrase things, because I'm very aware that reverse racism isn't a thing. Like you can't really be racist to a white person. I'm just given the historical context. That's not a thing. And I've really just worked on I've read a lot of books about this issue. And I think that's really helped me to understand better, what what is racism? What is race? How do actually, you know, people who are discriminated against feel? And often you know, there's there's a book that I recently read called why I'm no longer talking to white people about race. And the title really sparked my interest. Yeah, so I think it for me, it's been about Yes, obviously, raising awareness. But I've always I've been very careful. I've been tiptoeing a little bit, trying to educate myself to make sure that I don't do anything that's insensitive. And I guess that comes along with it. Podcast Host 04:29 Yeah, well, I think that's an incredible Well, a very important first step right is to educate yourself on the topic. And I guess for myself, like it's an area that everybody around the world has been exposed to, at a greater extent due to the BLM Black Lives Matter movement. Yeah. And I think everybody is kind of recognize their privilege, or whiteness or ethnicity or diversity or sense of religion or all these different things that have certainly come to light It is important, I think, to educate yourself. Is there ever been a moment where you felt like you had overstepped or said something out of turn or perhaps use the wrong language, right? Because there's such power in language, particularly around race at this point, you just pointed out to me discrimination versus exclusion versus SAT, you know, all these different subtleties around language that are involved with race, is there been a moment where you're like, oh, gosh, I really need to educate myself. So I don't make this mistake. Again, Angelina 05:32 I wouldn't say there was a specific moment, I but I think I've just been around people who are very aware of those little subtleties. And so that's opened my eyes to it as well, that I can't just throw all these terms around interchangeably, or say things like, Oh, that's, you know, you're being too sensitive or whatnot. And I've really tried to listen to other people. And I guess that also comes in with my podcast. And just seeing, seeing what other how other people see it and try to educate myself through, for example, I did a podcast with a guy who's also in Hong Kong, and he's Indian. And so he in Hong Kong, in his school, felt some a little bit of discrimination. And it was mainly how, like language, his peers used Little things like microaggressions. And I was never so aware of how what impact those comments can have on others. And that really opened my eyes to it. Podcast Host 06:35 Yeah, I think there's a lot of people who can walk blindly through the situation, particularly if they're not necessarily the target of these microaggressions, or these kind of little moments that they might not pick up on unless they hear it from someone else. And as they hear that, Oh, no, these microaggressions definitely affect me. It's something that I notice every day. Like, it's something that's a part of my life, but it's something that I wish wasn't a part of my life. Yeah. So it's definitely something that I'm really happy that you're at least raising awareness of it. And I think it's a topic that a lot of people just prefer to tiptoe around it or not mention it, for fear of saying the wrong thing. Yeah. How has your experience been in addressing the situation or addressing the topic of racism? Angelina 07:19 Yeah, as I mentioned before, I think listening is really important. Don't, especially if you're a white person, don't assume that your answers are right. But I also think it's important to, once you have you know, educated yourself a little bit on it, that you do form your own opinions, and that you, you definitely speak out about it, whether that be through little things such as just initiating those conversations with your family, which is something that I've done, and which has been really interesting, because my family has, you know, also brings in some different perspectives as well, which I like to hear. So you can either do that, obviously, you can initiate bigger conversations, you can advocate for it. And I think it's really important to start locally as well. And and try and yeah, I guess, I mean, I can't say you can't like change or eradicate racism as a whole. But I think starting with those uncomfortable conversations is a good place to be at. Podcast Host 08:18 Yeah, well, it's something that I commend you for. And I think most students should try and raise the topic and educate themselves or one or the other. You know, educate yourselves and then raise the topic potentially, or speak to someone who you feel does know more about this topic. I think it's a really important thing. And obviously, you're having broached the subject on your podcast, we're going to be talking about how to start a podcast in high school, which I think is an awesome leadership project and an awesome way to connect with a wider community. Yeah, let's get into that. So first thing, what's your podcast call? Let's give it a let's give it a shout out. Angelina 08:53 Yeah, my podcast is called on my mind podcast. You can find it on Spotify and Apple podcasts. Podcast Host 09:00 Great, fantastic. So on my mind, and why a podcast I know, like 2020 was, you know, the year of the podcast, boom, it's the year that I started to become a podcaster as well. And I don't know if anyone else any of our listeners or yourself Angelina are on LinkedIn. But it felt like every second post was either someone who was promoting their podcasts or telling people about an episode that they were featured on like it, boom, obviously, because of pandemic and people just became so much more familiar with zoom and online calls and everyone just became more contactable. But what was your decision between you know, starting a podcast versus starting a blog versus a YouTube channel or perhaps doing nothing like why did you see the value in a podcast? Angelina 09:41 Well, first off, I I really enjoyed listening to podcasts. I don't know how many other teenagers my age, listen to podcasts, but I thought it was a really great way to educate myself while on the go, you know, it's like I can be on the bus and I don't have to be like reading a book. And I also think that So many teenagers have really great things to say have really super interesting stories to share. But I just feel that there's not really a platform to do this. And obviously, yes, we have social media, we have Instagram, but you're always limited to like one post or a short paragraph on someone's story. And I just felt like it wasn't valuable enough. And I just, I mean, I like speaking as well. And I like speaking to others. I like having conversations. And so I just thought, I don't know podcasts is a great way to combine all those things. Podcast Host 10:35 Yeah. So take me through your from idea to execution. Right, that timeline. I'm always fascinated by this whole kind of like, starting having the idea to actually getting the first podcast published and out into the world. What was that timeline? Like? And can you talk me through some of the major steps? Angelina 10:53 Yeah. So honestly, it's hard to say when exactly I pinned down that idea. I think I remember telling my parents, this was summer of between 10th and 11th grade. So it was summer break. So I was a little bit bored. Like I didn't have that much to do, especially because of the pandemic. And I remember, I like quickly pitched the idea to my parents. I was like, Oh, I'm interested in starting a podcast. And they're like, okay, yeah, like, they didn't think I was gonna go through with it. And then I remember one of my friends, she's, she's really good at like, artwork. And she, she takes classes. And so I kind of asked her, like, Hey, I'm thinking of starting a podcast, like, what do you think? Would you want to help me maybe do the cover, like the design, and she was really enthusiastic about it. And so together, we we made the the artwork for it. Um, which that didn't take too long. And I think the whole process was maybe like, two weeks or something from really getting it up. And then, yeah, I just did a little bit of research. There's a ton of websites out there that explain how to start a podcast. And I kind of just loosely follow that. And, and yeah, and then I put up a quick introduction episode. And then I set up an Instagram, I tried to promote it a little bit. I'm still working on that. Not the best at it. But yeah, and then I started posting the episodes. So that's Yeah, that was kind of my process. Podcast Host 12:31 Yeah, I think it's probably easier than a lot of students think. I think a lot of people think, Oh, I gotta start a podcast, my gosh, it sounds like a big thing to do. But really, once you've got the idea, and once you've got the artwork, you're most of the way there, it feels very real. When you've got the name, the idea. And the podcast artwork, you're just a couple of steps away from like, having a host, which you have buzzsprout, as also top of the class is hosted on vast grounds. For those students who are out there, basically, when you have a podcast host, which is something like a buzzsprout website, then when you publish your episode on buzz, Brad, it automatically gets published to, you know, servers like Spotify or Apple podcasts, or like you have to list the podcasts in those in those spaces. Yeah, but if you do list it, it will pretty much immediately appear, wherever you want to list the podcast. So but yeah, the promotion side of things. I think for any students who are wanting to start a podcast or interested in starting one, that's a challenge, and something that I'm still working on as well. And I heard one experience podcasters say that if you're spending an hour on an interview, you'd be spending three or four times that on promotion. Angelina 13:42 Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, don't do that. Podcast Host 13:45 Yeah. So that's like creating clips that's like, you know, sharing the maybe kind of a prior post up on LinkedIn or Instagram, when the episode gets published on Twitter, you want to be able to make sure that your guest is also sharing it with their network as well. To try and find relevant Facebook groups potentially or relevant other, you know, organizations that might share the post or might share that the episode. So it's all these bits and pieces that really come into it building an email list. If you're going to do that. I think it's a really good marketing exercise and a communication exercise. But I'd love to hear from you. What have you got out of it since starting the podcast? Angelina 14:23 Yeah, I'm so on the social media and like marketing sides of things. It's, it's that's been, I think, one of the biggest challenges because, yeah, it's interesting because numbers, like the number of listeners always fluctuates, and I, I try to see, well, like why could that be? Is it because I didn't promote it that much. Is it because that's a topic that's maybe less interesting to people. And I've tried, I've tried to get a little bit better at it. What I've done, what you mentioned, is uh, have little clips and post those because I think that can be really interesting for For people who are just scrolling through and then see a short clip, and they're like, Oh, I want to listen to it. Yeah, I mean, also just telling people in real life, I guess, yes, I 15:10 have a podcast. Podcast Host 15:11 Yeah, I was doing it just this weekend. I'm doing a dance rehearsal at the moment for a wedding that's coming up. So one of those things that you know, when you're in your 30s, I guess, but anyway, one of the one of the other guys in the retains a younger guy, 17. I'm like, how are you? 17? Do you listen to podcasts? I've got a podcast. And so yeah, always. I mean, like, it's one of those things as a podcast, you're always pretty keen to grow your audience, because traditionally, you don't put too much budget behind the advertising. So if students are out there thinking, Oh, a podcast sounds pretty expensive. You can actually do it fairly cheaply, right? You can have the bus route subscription, which is, you know, a couple of dollars a month. Yeah. And if you're doing it via air pods, like I've got a microphone and headphones, and 15:53 you don't have I don't have the fancy technology. Yeah, Podcast Host 15:55 you don't really need all that stuff. Right. And you can do the editing software for free. I use Audacity. I'll put all links in. Yeah, I use Audacity as well. Right. Right. So I'll put a link to the blog article I wrote about, like how to start a podcast in high school. And that covers a lot of these bits and pieces as well. But yeah, it's actually pretty cheap to start and pretty easy to get going. But it's really interesting that you, you're getting a lot of experience with the marketing and social media side. How about the idea of like growing your network, contacting guests finding questions to answer because you're actually becoming like, a bit of a journey at the same time, like bit of like journalistic skills that you're building in this process? How have you found that side of things? Angelina 16:34 Yeah, well, in the beginning, and so far, it's been mostly my friends, but often also people that I I know, but I'm not like super close with, but that I know, have, you know, certain, I guess, skill set or are educated on certain topics, or are involved in some things so that they could Yeah, speak about this? And I've kind of tried to contact speakers that I've heard from and some workshops, contacting people over email, Instagram, and yeah, it is tough, because a lot of the time I don't get any replies, which is okay. And it's, it's part of the process, I guess. And so, you know, I just keep reaching out to people pitching what my podcast is. And hopefully, that's something that I can improve on in the future as well and get more, I guess, yeah, high profile speakers on. But I think I also, I also really appreciate the insights that my peers have. Podcast Host 17:32 Yeah, well, I'm gonna put you on the spot right now. What's the pitch for the online podcast? Angelina 17:38 Well, on my mind podcast is a podcast that speaks to a young audience that has issues that are relevant to a young audience. So that includes things like Black Lives Matter, movement, mental health, how to not go crazy at school, how to take care of yourself. And it's a it's a safe space to have discussions to grow, and inspire people through dialogue. Podcast Host 18:07 Nice. I love it. Well, if any of our listeners are interested in being on the show, I don't know if any of your guests from outside of Hong Kong or if that's a usual thing, but Angelina 18:16 yeah, I mean, a lot of them are also my friends from Switzerland. But I've had a couple people, ya know, from outside Hong Kong. Podcast Host 18:23 Awesome. Awesome. So if any of our listeners out there who are interested on ballenas podcast, we'll put your contact details to that. Class, 18:31 please reach out. Podcast Host 18:32 Yeah, of course, it was always good to give a podcast a shout out. I think it is a really interesting medium for students to use. And you did mention that you probably not too sure how many teenagers actually listen to podcasts at this stage? Angelina 18:45 I agree. I saw definite like a gap there as well. Podcast Host 18:48 Yeah, yeah. So for any listeners out there, I think the podcast space for high schoolers, teenagers is something that's really interesting. And it's an area that I think has a lot of potential to grow. It's just a matter of starting it. And as we've both kind of attested to, it's actually not that hard to start one. So yeah, no, it's not reached out to us if you have any questions about starting a podcast as well, which is always good fun. Now, one thing I did notice about your podcast is the podcast release dates vary a little bit. Some you've got within like a week of each other, and then somebody like two weeks, three weeks, I think that actually is a good thing, particularly if you are a student, because I think a lot of people would say, Yes, I want to do a podcast, but I don't want to have the pressure of having to release a podcast every single week. Did you originally approach the podcast with that intention to have a podcast every single week and then it kind of fell by the wayside exams or something got in the way, and then you were like, oh, every third week, where every second week or just when I've got an episode to publish, I'll publish. Angelina 19:53 Well, since I started it during the summer, I had quite a lot of free time on my hands and so that's when I was posting them quite frequently. And then school started up and I was like, I have a lot to do. And so I just yeah, I couldn't keep it up doing one every week. And so it started becoming less frequent. And I, I told myself, I don't want to just like drop it, you know? And then because I feel pressured to do it every week, and then I don't do it at all. So I was trying to be easy on myself and tell myself It's okay, if I do one, maybe just every month? Because also, I think listeners don't always tune in every single week. Yeah, I think sometimes it's good to give people like time to, like, finish the episode. But yeah, I tried to be less harsh on myself. Podcast Host 20:36 Yeah, exactly. And I think also understanding you know, what your audience is likely to do or their habits, as you said, most audiences probably won't listen to a full episode in a week. I know, some of my episodes fluctuate, you know, massively depending on the topic, or depending on who shares it. All kinds of factors, depending on the length or duration of the podcast, I'm actually thinking of doing some, like shorter versions, all kinds of things. But I think it's a great way to, for students. I mean, like, 10 years ago, everyone was blogging, everyone had a blog. Yeah. And now I feel like it's one of those things that you could start up a podcast fairly easily. And it's a great way I particularly found it a great way to expand a network. So for me, like I've been in contact with students from all around the world, and have really, you know, tapped into some great organizations, some great high schools and learned so much from all of my guests. We've been awesome, you know, and as I'm learning from you today, as well, you know, diversity and the experience of an international student, which I never had myself. So I think it's, it's a really great way to engage with the wider community and doesn't matter if you're in year seven, or you're in year 12, or whatever it is, the podcast is a good place to start. Now, I want to get back to the diversity side of things is I understand you've got another project that's specifically related to that area. Can you talk me through that at all? Angelina 21:51 Yeah, so I'm actually part of an organization that's founded in Hong Kong and based here called inclusivity, Hong Kong, and it was actually founded by one of my friends, and I joined the team fairly recently. And it's been really cool because it's fully a student led organization. And we kind of aim to, I guess, address discrimination in schools, make learning spaces more inclusive. So as part of inclusivity, although I'm not quite working on that side of things, we actually have a podcast. And right now we're in the midst of charting, starting up chapters, at different schools, as well as Hong Kong University, which is really cool. So that's been a really fun experience. Podcast Host 22:36 Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And I think student led organizations have so much opportunity for growth. I think, traditionally, students look to big organizations and say, Yes, I'm going to join that organization, because they've got volunteer opportunities. But generally speaking, there's very little chance for upward movement in those organizations, right? Like, if you start as a volunteer, and you're a student, that's where you're going to stay. Yeah, at least for a little while. Whereas in a student led organization, you could get in and then very quickly be like, Vice President of lead organization, right. 23:09 That's true. Yeah. Podcast Host 23:10 What have you done so far? And has it been perhaps more than you expected? Well, it's Angelina 23:15 interesting, because I think it hasn't been like a fully upwards curve, always. And I think I'm learning as we go, that it takes a lot to really grow and build and sustain an organization. And it's, it's not a simple task, which, yes, sounds obvious. But once you're actually amidst it, you realize how much effort really takes. And so we were kind of in a little bit of an off phase for a while. But I think now we've come back stronger, we've come back with, again, like I said, plans to start individual chapters and kind of trying to reach out to schools and find volunteers who want to start a chapter or initiative at their school, and then kind of oversee that. And then, in those chapters, are planning on kind of maybe inviting some guest speakers having some book discussions, watching some TED Talks. Yeah, and really have a space for for meaningful discussions and where people can come in and feel safe for work, people can come and just, you know, listen, and Podcast Host 24:20 it's so important, actually, to for many students, school isn't a safe place. And even having that recognized and having a student organization, recognizing it, I think, is even more important than perhaps an official kind of like adult led organization because it feels almost a little bit forced, right? Whereas like to know that you've got allies in your school, who are volunteers of this organization. And, you know, the students who might be having a tough time could even become volunteers of the organization as well, to kind of have a voice to this issue, which is very, very real. Yeah, that's really interesting and in terms of getting involved is it something That other students could look into. I mean, they might not be able to start their own chapter unless it's kind of like related to the Hong Kong one. But I know that certainly students around the world would probably be interested in at least the model that you guys are following. Angelina 25:13 Yeah. So it's if you're not in Hong Kong, it's hard right now, because we're still trying to get this done and get this right, if that makes sense, and then maybe later branch out to some other parts of the world? Podcast Host 25:26 Yeah, well, we'll see how we go. Hopefully, a couple students can look at that model. And at least say, hey, yeah, that's something that I might be able to start in my own school. Yeah. Because if you've got issues at your school, or if you feel that that's something that you're interested in, I think that if you if you're interested in it, there might well be listening to this podcast. So yeah, it will be a thing that you want to try and get started in your own school as well. Now, one thing that I am interested in as well is Hong Kong, for those people who might not know, but for you, who have been there for the last year and a half, has had a lot of ups and downs over the last 18 months, you know, not just the current pandemic, of course, but everything politically. And it's been very, very tumultuous for a range of reasons. And we won't go into, you know, who's right or who's wrong. But obviously, like, there has been a lot of activism in Hong Kong. Yeah. Massive student activism in particular. People who aren't aware like, I think it was Hong Kong University, was it? Yeah, yeah. It was, it Angelina 26:23 was a bunch of universities. Yeah. Yeah. Podcast Host 26:27 So it was really, really full on and like student activism, particularly like young college student activism. Yeah. When sky high, like it became like the news around the world of what was going on in Hong Kong. How do you feel that has affected or impacted high school students, and their thoughts around having a voice and being more active in speaking out about things like inclusivity? speaking out about, you know, topics that you're addressing in your podcast? Do you feel like it's become more of the norm there in Hong Kong, because of what's happened over the last kind of 18 months? Angelina 27:01 That's an interesting take on Actually, I never really thought of it in that sense, after sound pretty privileged, because the, obviously, the protests affected me, but less than maybe with other people. But I think, for me, and I, for a lot of other students, it's made us a lot more politically aware, just aware of politics in general. And then I think if you were in Hong Kong before, and like politics didn't really affect you. And you're like, Okay, I don't really care as much. I think now, that perspective is changed. And I know a lot of students now are, like, closely follow politics now, especially obviously, American politics. But yeah, and I'm not sure how, how does exactly change the high school activism, I wouldn't say it has had a huge impact on it. Because for a lot of students, I think this was an area that they have to tiptoe around. And it was so controversial, is so controversial. Podcast Host 28:02 Yeah, well, it's interesting, because I think here in Australia, just, you know, from my personal experience, there's not as many like crazy, outrageous, controversial things that are going on in Australia. And so the students are generally less I would say, Please, students, if you're out there, correct me if I'm wrong. But I generally think that students in Australia are probably less politically aware, or even if they are politically aware, they're probably not as geared towards activism as such, right, or feeling as though that they can have a say in the matter, like they might be politically aware, but they might not necessarily go out and make a change. I was really impressed in Australia, actually, when they did the the climate strike. And I'm sure you know, yeah, Hong Kong, that was the thing potentially, as well, like around the world. Everyone was doing climate strike. Yeah. And you know, the politicians here in Australia were like, Oh, you should just go back to school type of thing. And I'm learning this is a great opportunity to learn about activism and to learn about having a voice and you can create art and make a lovely poster, or like slogans, and all these different things that can actually come from having a voice and protesting and having advocacy, which I think is super, super important. But yeah, I think it's a, I think a lot of students probably underestimate the power that they have in terms of their own voice. Is that something that you have? Or you previously thought that maybe coming around to the idea that students have like a really strong voice? You know, even through your podcast through inclusivity, you kind of understanding that student voices is a really important part of the landscape of communication in any particular city. Angelina 29:36 Yeah, I definitely think so. I mean, that's like the whole reason I started my podcast is because I felt that student voice was so prevalent, so important, I think now, especially with social media, like we're all connected, right, and someone across the world could be listening to this podcast and somehow be maybe inspired by or influenced by it or have an idea and so I think that is really powerful in terms of connecting people, and really having a, I guess, a global movement of really engaged students, which I think is super cool. Podcast Host 30:12 Yeah. And I think students need to realize that whilst getting grades are important and everything, sometimes being involved in activism and looking outside of your exam grades, can really help you figure out what you want to do after school and can really help you pave a path in whatever you want to do. Which brings me to my next question, what is ahead for you? Your you don't have long left of school? What do you see yourself doing after school? What are you aiming for? Angelina 30:40 That's a good question. It's something I try and figure out every day. And I think about every day, because I think I have a diverse set of interests. I like science, I take biology higher level. But I also am very passionate. I mean, I take history and English. And so I love like the creative arts literary arts, I write poetry, which is, which I really enjoyed doing. And I think I'm also interested in politics. Like I mentioned, I became a lot more politically aware recently. And so I'm thinking I don't have the exact major pin down, but along the areas, maybe, you know, international development, politics, something along those lines. Podcast Host 31:23 Yeah. And is there any particular university or college that you're aiming for? Again, I'm Angelina 31:27 researching it? Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking of applying to the US and the UK. And to be honest, there's not one like dream university that I have. And I'm just very focused on like, trying to get the grades and trying to keep up everything else right now that I haven't had time to fully, like, find that one dream university that I want to go to. Podcast Host 31:50 Right now you got plenty of time, I guess? Well, some people would say you don't. But you can, you can keep putting, you know, the college research on the to do list and get around to it, when you do have that more time to really figure out what you want to do. I always say to students as well, that sometimes not knowing exactly what you want to do is great, because it gives you an opportunity to listen to other ideas and to be open to new possibilities. I think some students kinda pick a path, and then put their head in the sand and don't want to hear anything else. Like that's going to be their path. And sometimes like there could be a great opportunity or something, you know, they'll learn about something new, or they'll read about something new. And if they didn't have their head in the sand, they would follow that opportunity a little bit further and see where it goes. So I always say like, the best part about not knowing what you want to do is you want all the doors open. Angelina 32:45 I see that. Yeah, I see that so often here, especially in in Asia, where people are very, very driven here, which was that was also a big difference compared to Switzerland. People are extremely driven, and have specific career paths in mind. And that was like quite intimidating to me. I mean, obviously, I think it's incredibly cool. If you already have that passion, you know what you want to go for. But I also think that like you said, at times, it can hinder you a little bit because I think I listened to this TED talk once that was basically the message of it was like humans aren't just created to have one passion and to do one thing in life. Like, we have a diverse set of interests. And sometimes, you know, we want to pursue a range of jobs. Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was a pretty interesting approach on on that. Podcast Host 33:36 Yeah, well, I I completely agree that students who pick a career, when they're like 15, or 16, I'm always thinking like, are you picking that career? Because you really want that curry? Or is that a suggestion from your parents? Or is it just kind of like, you know, I feel like a lot of students say that, to put themselves at ease to kind of lessen their internal stress that they don't, you know, because that is, I guess, still that firepower around not knowing what you want to do. And people are like, I would rather be externally viewed as someone who is aware and knowing what they want to do, rather than someone who does. And, you know, internally, they might be still saying, I have no idea what I want to do. But externally, they'll say, I'm going to be in financial medicine and this and everyone's like, oh, wow, they really know what they want to do. And no one questions it. No, one question. Yeah. Wow, that's so inspiring. Yeah, yeah, you've got your life sorted. Well, congratulations. And then they can kind of like, go to the back of the class and not get questioned anymore. Whereas like, if you don't know what you want to do, people are like, Oh, so what are you interested in? And they asked, like, 1000 questions, right? And you're like, hey, let's back off. I'm figuring it out as we go. Right? Definitely. But I think I think students really need to look at an embracing that uncertainty a little bit more and be more open to it because, like, Who knew that there was a right As a full time podcaster. But guess what? That's what I'm doing. Yeah. And it can, it can happen. So like, I would never have thought that I'll be doing full time podcasting, and they go, so, yeah, it's something that I think you should just be okay with in going forward that Yeah, you're not too sure what you're going to do just yet. Any kind of words of advice or wisdom that you would like to impart upon our lovely listeners from around the world? Angelina 35:25 Well, first off, I want to say thank you for listening. And yeah, I just want to say, I guess, you know, believe in yourself. That's one of the biggest things that I see all the time is like, self doubt that so many students have, and I have as well. So yeah, believe in yourself, do what you want. Also, like, don't take shame in sometimes, you know, hanging out with your friends, and just having a good time, because I think that's so incredibly important, as well as obviously, you know, activism and extracurriculars in school is also to just balance it out with with having a good time as well. And, yeah, yeah, enjoy 36:00 life. Podcast Host 36:00 Enjoy life. Yeah, I think if you're got that goal every single day, when you wake up to believe in yourself and enjoy life, then you're certainly on the right track. Well, it's been awesome having you on the show, Angela? Like it's, it's great to meet a fellow podcaster and chat about all things. Yeah, with inclusivity, which I think is a really interesting topic and something that, you know, hopefully our listeners get in touch with you. Speaking of which, what would be the best way to get in contact with you that we can live in the shownotes? Angelina 36:28 Yes, probably my Instagram account. Podcast Host 36:32 You can flick it to me. I'll put it in the show notes. Alright, people to get pen and paper out and ride it. Angelina 36:36 Yeah. Okay. Cuz I thought that was Yeah, yeah. No, every time I hear people say I never like actually write it down and think about it. So Podcast Host 36:44 yeah, now you've done the right thing. It will just put it in the show notes. So yeah, people can get in contact, ask questions about the podcasts and we'll put the podcast link in the show notes as well. And hopefully they can have a listen to some of your episodes and get a you know, a wide variety of different perspectives. But thank you so much again for joining us and look forward to sharing this episode far and wide as I said, three hours of promotion to every one hour of podcast recording. So I look forward to sharing it as much as far as I possibly can. 37:14 Thank you. Podcast Host 37:16 Thanks for listening to Top of the Class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

Ep #29 Publishing a Book and Teaching Epidemiology to Fight COVID

🗓 JAN 23, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with Texas student Stephanie Wang. Stephanie has been fighting COVID-19 in unique ways by writing and self publishing a book, teaching hundreds of students about public health, and creating lesson plans for biology students that her school will start teaching soon. She gives fantastic advice for aspiring authors, and invite you the listener to contact her about getting the public health curriculum taught in your school. Let's chat with Stephanie Wang. Hi Stephanie, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Stephanie Wang 00:56 Well, hi, Alex. First of all, thank you for so much for having me. My name is Stephanie. I'm currently 16 years old. And I'm a junior from Texas. And I really am involved in helping improve educational access across communities and doing that in whatever shape that may be. And I recently wrote and published an introductory epidemiology textbook called epidemiology unmasked. And the purpose of this textbook was to help spread public health literacy to students across my community and even beyond that, during the pandemic, because we all know that during the pandemic, we all face difficulties, and some face difficulties and informational access. So that was my main goal in writing the textbook. Podcast Host 01:40 That's awesome that you have come up with a book in response to the Coronavirus because obviously, like the education side of things has been a real struggle. Obviously, there's a lot of people who have skepticism about it, who don't really know how things like this kind of spread. And you have developed a very strong interest in epidemiology. Can you take me through that and how that kind of started and then how that perhaps accelerated through the Coronavirus? Stephanie Wang 02:06 Definitely. So I am a member of my school Science Olympiad team and I have been competing in Science Olympiad for about this would be my fifth year. And I started when I was in seventh grade, in seventh grade, I went to my middle school had a very, very good Science Olympiad team. And I at first joined because I wanted to know what it was all about. I didn't really have very strong aspirations. But once I started actually getting engaged in tournaments and exploring different events, I came across one event that really, really helped me a lot in defining my passions and what I wanted to do so that event was called disease detectives, and disease detectives is essentially an event focused on public health and epidemiology. And for the actual aspect of the event, participants basically follow through an outbreak investigation and solve it throughout the entire process. And beyond the outbreak investigation, the testimony also test concepts, you know, like microbiology, disease spread, things like that. And that was pretty much how I really got into this field. And from that event, I learned so much about epidemiology, which is a field of science that I would not have otherwise learned in school, and I probably would not have otherwise even known or really explore deeply if it wasn't for that event. From then on, I began pursuing projects that were outside of the scope of Science Olympiad, but really helped to augment my experience in epidemiology. And that included a research project that included talking to professors in the field. And so from there, I've been really alert to all sorts of public health developments in the world. And of course, the latest one would be the pandemic and pandemic has been pretty hard on the United States, especially in Texas as well. And so I realized, you know, there are some people who may not have had the same epidemiological education that I had through Science Olympiad, and they were the ones who are most vulnerable to being misinformed or taking things that may have been wrong and rolling with it, which can be detrimental to people and to the society as a whole. So that was something that I felt needed to be changed and targeted. And so from for doing that, that's how the idea of my book really came to fruition. Podcast Host 04:32 Yeah, that's fantastic. What kind of fallacies or misinformation Do you find that you are often correcting that people might have because they might not have much background in epidemiology and for those who don't know, epidemiology? It's a bit of a big word, I guess. It means the study of the spread of disease. Is that right? Stephanie Wang 04:53 Yeah, pretty much just the study of like how diseases spread in populations in ways that people can prevent and treat the population level. Podcast Host 05:02 I think it's become a very popular word, obviously, in 2020. It was everyone who was, you know, knew about Anthony falchi, the head epidemiologist in there in America. But yeah, what kind of misinformation or fallacies? Do you find yourself correcting? Or do you find yourself being most pervasive, I guess, within the Texas area that you will like that is just completely wrong? Stephanie Wang 05:24 Well, there is a wide variety. I think I read a statistic back in June, when I was doing research that over half of Americans have seen at least some form of misinformation online. And definitely that number must be a lot higher by now. Because that was back in June. And so some of the more common ones involve sort of conspiracies about the vaccine, or like questioning the effectiveness of various public health measures, such as math and social distancing. And although scientists often tell us to do that, it can cause people to question whether or not we should do it. And I think the best way for us to do to help each other and help sees the spread is to listen to the experts. And I think convincing people that it's important to listen to the experts and do these various precaution measures that I've been recommended. I think that's the most important sort of misinformation, or trying to combat that misinformation. That's the most important thing that I've been trying to do. Podcast Host 06:24 Yeah, and it's really exciting. I think that a student of your age and of your experience, like you're, you know, have an interest in epidemiology, but by no means do you have like a degree in epidemiology, but you still saw that there was an opportunity for you to make a very big difference in your community. And you started out with the book epidemiology on mast, which, by the way, I think is an awesome name. Can you take me through the writing of that book? And can you take me through, like how the idea even came about that a book would be a good idea to try and combat this misinformation, Stephanie Wang 06:55 of course. So obviously, there are a lot of different online resources and things like that. But I, what I realized through my time in studying epidemiology, as a middle school student in a high school student is that a lot of the text that is presented and a lot of the manuals or online resources, they can be hard to read or hard to understand for people, especially those who may not have a firm background in the subject or anything related to the subject, which is most of the population. And so I decided, you know, since I, I recently had to overcome learning this, and making sure I understand everything, I believe I have the ability to make all of this complicated stuff into something that would be simple and fun. So that's why I decided that I was going to write a book. And it was going to be a book that was not another repeat of all the other epidemiology textbooks on there, or the manuals online. Instead, I really wanted it to be something that would be fun to read. And something that would be easy to read, something that maybe even a child or a kid would voluntarily pick up and read. Because I think that's the best way for students to learn is to be happy and be very eager to do it. I know that most students will not be interested in just reading a textbook. So for my textbook, I went through an entire hypothetical outbreak investigation that I made. And it was supposed to be a book where the reader steps into the shoes of an epidemiologist understanding and going over and tackling the outbreak. And so along each of these steps, I presented them with the adequate information necessary to understand what each part of the outbreak investigation is, and understand important epidemiological concepts along the way. So that's basically how I structured the book. And as for writing, I knew I didn't want it to be, you know, very textfield, since that would sort of discourage students. So instead, I actually designed it on a graphic design pretty much the entire book, I designed on a graphic design tool, all 117 pages, and after that, it was able to make the book a lot more aesthetic, and make made people actually want to, you know, look at it, and especially younger students, that would definitely help them. Podcast Host 09:10 Wow, 117 pages, I didn't know it was that long. And so you throughout that 117 pages, take students through this whole investigation of a hypothetical disease, and then how they might be able to combat it. So it's kind of like you're putting them in the shoes of the scientists who are discovering and combating the disease. Is that right? Stephanie Wang 09:31 Yes, that's correct. And I did that because I feel a lot that students learn best when they're doing things and not just reading facts, because in school, I definitely enjoyed the more project based activities more than a lot of my friends do as well. So I feel that encompassing this subject as a project based or a problem based activity almost would be more fun for students to read. And that's the bulk of my book. I also have my last chapter that's dedicated on just basic information. About COVID, and things that have already occurred, and helping to inform the readers just about the main things that they need to know about the pandemic. So they can establish a baseline to look at all the other facts that they're presented to them, and evaluate whether they believe it should be credible or not. Because I think we all should have like a baseline to evaluate. And I, that's my goal with the last chapter of my book. Podcast Host 10:24 Wow, that's fantastic. And I love this whole kind of writing a book journey that you must have gone on. And I'd love to explore that with you a little bit more. Because I think the idea of actually, funnily enough, I'm thinking of writing a book. And I think the hardest thing when you're considering that is knowing how do I start? How do I structure? What is this book going to look like when I finally finish? And then you know, how am I going to get it published? And how am I going to get it seen? And all these kinds of things, and all these questions that come up along the way? So can you take us back? I guess, however long ago, the idea of the book came about, and then take us through your journey of how did you decide upon the structure? How did you decide upon the length was the length that you ended up having the book at 117 pages? Was that roughly what you thought it would be at the start some of those kind of questions that you probably tackled along the way through writing and publishing the book? Stephanie Wang 11:18 Yeah, of course. So what I did was, I had the idea in around March, that time when the pandemic was first really starting to get serious in Texas and in the country. And so one night, I just jotted down every single topic I wanted to cover, in my book, this range from, you know, basic reproduction number to disease transmission to micro organisms, all of the things I wanted to cover, and then I sorted them in main blocks that I wanted to cover in one chapter, for instance. And I, you know, thought about how I wanted to structure it, should I just write everything, should I just tell people the information, but then I realized, you know, it would be much better if I formatted this in sort of a structure of a disease detective test, and allow the reader to go along the entire journey and learn things along the way. So that was basically how I structured the book. And I definitely did not think it would be 117 pages, I remember starting it and thinking it would be 50, at most, but there was just so much that I wanted to include and so much that I wanted to elaborate on that it ended up being much longer than I originally anticipated. And I also did not originally plan to put the last chapter in the COVID chapter. But then, you know, I thought, well, the main reason why I'm writing this book is to help prevent misinformation and foster responsibility during COVID. So it sort of be a missed opportunity, if I didn't include at least some information about COVID in there. So that was, after I pretty much wrote the whole book, I decided to add the last chapter. And after that, it did end up totaling around 117 pages. So for the publishing process, I explored different routes of publication, usually, there's traditional publishing where the author gets in contact with a publishing company. And then they pretty much do all the heavy lifting for you. But the sort of disadvantage of that was that it didn't really give the author much freedom to do what they wanted with the book. And also, it would take a very long time, the author would also not have as much royalties for their book. And so there was also the other common auction, which was self publishing your book. And for that, I actually felt that it would be more worth it to do self publishing, because even though I didn't really have a marketing, or like a company to do the marketing, for me, self publishing is very fast, you pretty much just upload it, and then you wait a few days, and then you're done. So I feel like time is a very important issue, especially in the pandemic. And I really wanted to get it out as soon as possible because the pandemic was already raging on. So that was the main reason why I decided to self publish. But there was also the other reason of royalties. And royalties are much higher in self publishing. And what I actually wanted to use the royalties as sort of a fundraiser for the people working on the front lines for COVID. So that was another main consideration. And so even though when I was exploring the traditional route, I was able to get in contact with a publisher, or I decided, you know, I don't think it was really worth it. In my circumstance, even though for other authors, oftentimes, traditional publishing is worth it. But for me, I felt that the advantages were sort of offset by the drawbacks. So I decided to go with self publishing. Podcast Host 14:37 Wow. Okay. So it's quite a journey you've gone on, what kind of resources were you using during that time to kind of figure out your journey through to publishing a book. Stephanie Wang 14:45 No one in my family really has done anything like of this sort. So I wasn't really able to ask them much for this publishing advice, help. And as for the whole publishing process, I essentially just did a lot of online research and I've just a lot of googling a lot of websites that I browse. But for that part, not really. But for the actual review of the book and making sure everything was credible, I actually contacted a few professionals from the Texas Medical Center, which is located here in Houston. And I was able to get in contact with a few professors, including the director of infection control, MD Anderson, which is the largest Cancer Center in the world, I believe. So he definitely was such a huge help, he helped me look over everything. And then he made sure everything was correct in there. And then he suggested a few revisions here and there about you know, braising and there was also one of my previous professors that I worked with in the past, he also offered to review my book and look over all the information and make sure everything was correct. And so they were also able to offer me editorial reviews. And that definitely helped because it definitely helped to boost the credibility that my book had. And those were my main sort of advisors. Yeah, I also got my brother to read the book. He's currently 11. And he is sort of in the target audience a little bit younger, maybe, but around that range. And he helped me read over and see what parts of the book he couldn't understand. And so I wanted to figure out, you know, how can I word this a little bit differently, to make it understandable for everyone, especially kids who are younger, so those were my main advisors. Podcast Host 16:28 Fantastic. And in terms of the professor's I think that's super cool, and definitely adds legitimacy to your work? How did you go about getting in contact with them? And then like, how did you go about saying, hey, look, I've written this book, it's 117 pages, would you mind reviewing it? I'm imagining these are pretty busy people, particularly at this time with the Yeah, demick raging? So how did you manage to kind of convince them to take a fair chunk of time out of their day, to review your book and to, you know, make notes and really help you out through this journey. Stephanie Wang 16:59 So one of the professors, he has a friend who is friends with, it's like a chain, you know, it's like a chain of connections, but I sort of knew him from my parents and their connections. So I emailed him, and then he definitely was busy. But he was kind enough to spend some time a few hours, it wasn't too long for him, because he's an expert in this stuff. So he helped me just look over it. He didn't nitpick, but he just made sure everything was correct. And just offered some advice on where to fix a little bit. But I would say he was my main reviewer. And then my other reviewer. I knew him previously, because he had been my mentor for previous research. So he definitely was very willing to do that. And yeah, since I knew him previously, that helped get him on board. Podcast Host 17:48 Yeah, well, that's the the power of networking. Right. And I think that's a really big tip. Yeah, it's who, you know, thinking of creating some research and those kinds of things is to if you can contact professors, because it just adds that legitimacy. And I think a lot of professors would probably be quite excited to know that there is a student someone in their teen years, someone who's still in high school, who is keen to make a difference, and it was really interested in their area of expertise. Did you find that as well, that, you know, there was a professor being like, oh, wow, this is like a great initiative by a high school student. Stephanie Wang 18:20 Oh, yeah, definitely. Both of the people and some other ones that I contacted. They were all very, very excited. They definitely were very encouraging. And were very supportive, gave some very kind words and some very good advice. So yeah, for students out there, I think, if you have an initiative, I don't think you should be scared to contact adults who are experts in the field, because I think most of the time, they will be very receptive and very happy to help in any way. Podcast Host 18:47 Okay, yeah. No, that's fantastic advice. I'm interested as well, in the cost side of things. And I don't need exact numbers here. But I think it's an interesting question, because self publishing, to me sounds like a potentially expensive thing to do. And I know that you wanted to do that because you wanted to get the royalties and then donate that royalties, as you said, to the frontline, COVID workers, which I think is a fantastic initiative and kind of like, brings it full circle, which I think is awesome. But there must have been a bit of debate in your mind about whether to publish it as an E book, which obviously is, I think, would be lower cost versus an actual book. So can you talk us through a those kind of practical sides of things in terms of the cost factor? And what made you really want to go down the publishing route as opposed to an E book? Stephanie Wang 19:31 Sure. So it may be sort of surprising to people but self publishing is actually quite cheap. I never actually had to pay anyone to do anything. For me. I think the main expense for publishing a book is the actual printing. So for example, the website that I publish it on, I actually have it on Amazon and on Lulu, but my original publishing site was on Lulu press, and their publishing is actually quite cheap. Their printing is also quite cheap and For the actual uploading the self publishing part, that part doesn't cost any money. But the actual printing for my book, I believe that costs around $7 or so I can't remember exactly. But it's not too expensive. And so they also give you like a base amount that it has to be over, your cost has to be greater than that to account for the royalties and the publishing and my book currently on lose about $9. So isn't really too expensive. So yeah, I don't think the money is a very big issue in self publishing. However, in traditional publishing, it definitely does cost more money. Because when I was originally getting in contact with that traditional publishing company, they definitely had a lot more cost it was in the hundreds. So that was also another factor why I didn't want to do that. But that being said, the self publishing royalties, I believe, they really do pay off because I have been able to get enough money from the royalties to buy 1000 masks for the frontline health workers. So that definitely was a very rewarding experience for me, just to see that sort of work pay off in the form of monetary donation to the frontline health workers. Podcast Host 21:11 That's fantastic. I'm really glad to hear that. But it's actually your idea is being carried through and now you're seeing the results of, you know, helping the frontline workers get through this very difficult time. So that's fantastic, Stephanie. Now I want to kind of shift gears a little bit towards how you got that book into libraries, because that's obviously like, you know, people can publish a book. But getting it seen and getting it actually, in legitimate places, is a whole new task altogether. And I think a lot of students might say, well, if I'm going to get my book out there, I might have to just hit up social media pretty hard. But you actually said, Okay, if I'm going to get my book out there, then I need to get it in places where people might see it in in legitimate libraries is a great place to start. So can you give us a bit of an insight as to where people might be able to find your book, if not online, and how you got into those libraries? Stephanie Wang 22:01 Sure. So my book is available in the Fort Bend county libraries, which is the county where I live. And for this process, I basically just called the one of the administrators of the entire Fort Bend County Library System. And she is responsible for dealing with like incoming literature. And she had to look over all my books. And also they have a requirement where the book has to be has to have like at least one reliable review, whether that be on the media, or via like a professional. And so before doing that, I also got a lot of press coverage for the books so that it could get the word out there. And so having already established this credibility, it was a lot easier for the library to see my book and realize that it was credible. And so it took a few days for them to review it and look over it and make sure everything was good quality. And then they basically just cataloged it inside their library systems. And so this way, readers from Fort Bend county libraries can just go online, into their Fort Bend County Library database, and just search my book and place it in hold or, you know, go to the actual libraries and check them out. everything like that is possible now that it's in the library. Podcast Host 23:18 What's been the the proudest moment for you so far through that journey? Was it getting tick of approval from the professor The first time you held the book in your hand, getting it into the library? Like there's a lot of moments that you can be really proud of throughout this journey? What do you think has been the most kind of aha moment for you where you were like, Stephanie Wang 23:37 I've done it. Beyond just writing the book, I decided, you know, I have to do more than that I have to make a class or some sort of teaching project where I can actually get this book into the hands of students and teach them the material in sort of a live fashion. And so what I did was I actually held a class with my nonprofit kid teach kid. And we actually got around 1000, something signups for the class. And so I basically for the entirety of the class, I taught them, the outbreak investigation, went through each step with them, and went through the curriculum step by step in more detail. And from that, at the end of the class, at the very last session, I asked them to brainstorm ideas of projects that they could potentially pursue that would help their community during COVID. And so these kids are very, very talented and very creative. And so they started rolling in a bunch of cool creative ideas. Some of them ranged from creating coding classes for their friends. Some of them range to creating informational YouTube videos to help people understand everything better. And so I think seeing these kids have such great ideas on how to help the community and being that my ideas were able to help fuel their passions. I think that was definitely the proudest moment. For me throughout this entire process, Podcast Host 25:02 so that's your nonprofit kid tasty? Stephanie Wang 25:04 Yes, it's a very, very similar process to how I decided to write the book, I have a few friends that I have been doing a lot of math contests with for the past few years. And since the pandemic started, we realized that most of the classes were going to be over for the kids, especially at the end person ones. And so we decided to start this nonprofit originally to help teach kids math. And after that, it was a pretty big success. So then, we recruited other students, our other friends to help teach other subjects. And so that's how we started this nonprofit. And that's also how I was able to do my public health class as well. Podcast Host 25:40 Wow, that's fantastic. So you really kind of made a lot of inroads in this COVID situation, I think it's fantastic. Because a lot of students were probably feeling a little bit helpless, and probably felt like they had a lot of time on their hands. But obviously, like you use your knowledge, and we know we can in epidemiology, and your love of teaching, to turn that into a many different ways to get the information out there. And one of those ways, which we're going to discuss now is a curriculum change. Now, I know that a lot of students would think that this idea is way out of their realm, that curriculum is decided much higher above them. But it's something that you've been able to do over the last couple of months in terms of suggesting it to your teachers. And it sounds like it's coming to fruition now in March, April. I know there's a lot of students out there who would wish to be able to change the curriculum in some way, shape, or form. And you've actually gone ahead and made that happen. So can you take us through that and what made you want to decide to change the curriculum. Stephanie Wang 26:42 So I of course, was motivated by the misinformation and irresponsibility, the same forces that motivated me to write the book. And you can do as much as you want through activism or educational advocacy, things like that, especially in book writing, and everything, everything that I have been pursuing so far. But I believe the most fundamental way to change the problems that we've been seeing is to conquer the educational insufficiencies from the root. And I think the root of that is the school system. And I know that in my school system, at least, we never really learned much about public health or epidemiology, which was also another big reason why I decided to write the book. But that being said, I felt that it would be possible for me to suggest to teachers to teach this instead into maybe even give it just a few days of class material, just for students who would be interested to be exposed to this sort of curriculum and for them to understand the basics of disease spreads so that in the future, when we may have another pandemic, these students who are in my generation, who will be the adults by then will be very responsible and more receptive, and more immune to misinformation. So that was how I got the idea. And I basically curated a custom curriculum with several PowerPoints, homework, activities, projects, and you know, just handouts, notes, sheets, things like that. And basically, it covers the entire book, but in that sort of form, and like classwork form, and it also does the same thing, it goes over the same outbreak uses the same calculations. And so I compiled them all together, and I approached my biology teacher, and she helped me look over everything, make sure it would be something that teachers would be receptive to. And so then I reached out to my school's freshman biology teachers, because in my school, the biology classes mostly occur in freshman year in junior or senior year. So I wanted to start with the freshmen students, because that's when most students take biology. So for them, I reached out to them, and they definitely will, one of them was very receptive to that. And currently, we're working out the details, but I think it should be able to come into fruition as in they may have like, a few days in a period of time after standardized testing for them to teach the material and do the activity with their students. And so this way, the students in their classes during this time, have a way to be exposed to public health and Epidemiology often for the first time. And I think it definitely sounds more scary than it is. But I think the most important thing to do is is to talk to people who are close to you first, for example, your teachers, and then maybe expand it further because if I am able to successfully get this to work very well in the schools in my school, then I have aspirations to expand it across the district. And in doing that we can just help combat this issue from the start so that we don't have to deal with it as much in the future. Podcast Host 29:51 I think this is fantastic. And and I think, you know in terms of addressing the root cause of the problem, as you said, like the going back to what is taught in schools seeing if we can kind of get in there early with the right ideas and the right information, particularly for something like, you know, that's so important, like public health, because I think the Coronavirus would agree that the the reason that it's been able to spread so much is because a lot of people just don't understand the science or have been fed misinformation and believe the misinformation more than the experts. So I think, you know, getting that into the school curriculum is a really good thing. But one of the things I'm interested in is, did you create the entire curriculum, the handouts, the slides, and all that kind of thing? And then took it to your biology teacher? Or did you mention to them be like, Hey, I think, you know, we might be able to come up with a few days worth of classes on public health? Can I work on something and then show it to you? Because I think a lot of times, one of the things that's missing, potentially, if students have tried to change the curriculum before, is they just haven't presented enough quality work, and they haven't presented enough quality information that the teachers can look at and say, Yep, I can turn this into a class No problem, right? Like, you got to make it easy for the teachers to say, yes, this would work in a classroom setting, which is what you know, which is what you did really well. And now your school is on board. So it kind of makes sense. But did you go through all that process first? Or did your teacher say, hey, Stephanie, if we're going to do this kind of thing, we're going to need a lot more information before we even consider it. Stephanie Wang 31:24 So I originally had a sort of pseudo curriculum already, because I have been teaching that public health class for kids each kid over the summer. And I didn't create the entire full blown worksheet curriculum yet, for my potential school curriculum. I first approached my biology teacher and told her about my idea. And she told me basically the necessary things that I have to have in order for teachers to consider it, such as all the lesson plans, the PowerPoints, and the structure that would be the most helpful for teachers. And so after having that information, I was able to sort of tweaked my original curriculum and fit than necessary or fit the necessities that she talked about. And that was how we got it to work. Podcast Host 32:14 Yeah, I think that's super important for students to realize what kind of landmarks or what kind of points the teachers are trying to teach, because they've got their set curriculum that they're trying to teach to. And if you can create a curriculum that fits in with that, or that makes sense with that, or that complements what the biology teacher or what any teacher is really trying to teach, then there is a lot higher chance of your changes being adopted, or at least being considered. So it has that journey been for you kind of like writing all these lesson plans, and you know, really going to work and creating like a full in a couple of day curriculum on epidemiology. Stephanie Wang 32:55 It's actually been quite fun, because, believe it or not, it's very, very fun to create things that I feel like are would be helpful to students. And I would say, for students who are interested in sort of, you know, changing their curriculum, or find this public health idea to be good, a good idea to implement into their school system, they can always, you know, contact me, and we can actually I can send them all the stuff, and then they can see if it'll, their, their teachers would be receptive to the idea. But I would say in general, the, the journey has actually been very fun, I would say, writing the book, though, there was there were some challenges, because I think the main challenge with writing the book was the part where I had to tell the whole part where I have to change this difficult thoughts, or this difficult concepts and difficult trains of thought into something that young students would be interested in when loved to read. And so that was something that was difficult because I had never really, when I was learning, I had never really learned with the intention of trying to regurgitate it as a fun learning resource. And so that was difficult. But again, my brother was willing to help me out with that just to help me look over which parts he was not able to understand. And so that was very, very helpful for me throughout that process. But I think, yeah, that was the main difficulty. But other than that, I would say it's been a very, very rewarding process. Podcast Host 34:25 Yeah, well, I hope it does get taught and and is a success. And obviously, like, there might be tweaks and changes that you might need to make. And it might take a little bit of time for it to be refined. But I think it's something that you can be really proud of that this is potentially the start of a very long lasting change, which is extremely exciting. And I think that's it for students out there who thought that they might not be able to change their curriculum that the curriculum is something decided by people who are much more senior and have been in education for 2030 years. That's not always the case. And you know, you can look at Stephanie's example. And of course, definitely, you've said that students can contact you to get the resources that you've created already. And we'll put that link in the show notes. So if you want to contact Stephanie and get those resources, I would 100% recommend that because I think that's like, even from my interest, Stephanie, I'd love to say it, just so I can learn a little bit about epidemiology, but also see the potential of how this could become, you know, part of a school curriculum elsewhere around the world, because it's obviously something that you know, many students are aware of, because of everything that's been going on with COVID. So it's something that I'm sure students will be pretty keen to learn about. But anyway, what's next? For us? Definitely, you've been doing a whole hate during this COVID situation, probably more than a lot of students would think would be possible during this lockdown period. But what's next for you in 2021? Stephanie Wang 35:47 Well, I think 2021 Well, I hope it would be more, it would be better for everyone. And I think 2021 is going to be a year where I really tried to get this stuff as far as I can. And that's why I'm also encouraging students from other states, other regions to contact me and we can try to get this into your state as well. So I think this year is going to be me focusing most on amplifying the impact of public health literacy and public health education. And just continuing on the work that I've been doing in 2020. And pushing it even more. And I think in the future, I would like to see, most of the districts in my state or even most of the schools in my state adopt a similar lesson plan adopted a similar curriculum that they would be using for their students, because I think if there's anything that we learned from this pandemic, is that anything can happen at any time. And we should all work to be well prepared for future incidents like this, and be well prepared to prevent the detriments that we've seen this time around. And so I think, for me, my work would be just to help spread the message more help get more students interested in public health, whether that be in teaching classes, or hosting workshops, or speaking on podcasts like this one, and helping to spread the message to today's youth into adults who are also willing to help with the spreading of the message. Podcast Host 37:18 Yeah, and hopefully the message can be spread faster than any virus, that's for sure. And, yeah, and in terms of college, because obviously Crimson education support students to get into world leading universities, I just saw the Oxford acceptances came out. And we've got a lot of students from Crimson who are heading there, which is very exciting. But what would be your kind of goal in terms of getting into colleges around there in the US, obviously, there's some fantastic universities in Texas. But is there anything in particular that you're looking at? Stephanie Wang 37:48 Yeah, I think my dream school just from when I was perhaps in middle school was always MIT because it's very stem focused school. And I've been on that campus many, many times throughout the past few years for competitions. And especially last year, I went there for a Science Olympiad competition, it was a beautiful campus, and they just seemed like such a great community. I think that's probably the school that I most want to get into. Of course, I would apply to a lot of there are a lot of great in state schools in Texas, like rice, and UT. But beyond that, I think, I haven't really given much too much thought into college yet, even though I should be probably since I'm applying this year. And yeah, I think we'll see. Because I really hope MIT is a place that I get into. Well, yeah, I Podcast Host 38:37 know that that is super competitive MIT. So for those of you I know that you might be a fan of Marvel cinema. I know Tony Stark, I think was a student there or has connections there. And Spider Man as well. Peter Parker, that's when I whenever I'm trying to describe MIT to students here in Australia, and they'll be like, Oh, you just sounds like a stem University. I'm like, Yeah, it's a stem University. But like, this is the kind of university that Peter Parker and Tony Stark go to right like it is. Next Level kind of STEM. So yeah, surprise, right. Yeah, it's a fantastic campus VIII visited there in January of 2020. As well, they are unabashedly nerdy. I think that's what the tour guide says. We are 100% nerds. And we are very much like believe that that's who we are and who we want to be. And I think it's like a really cool culture. We actually had the student body president of MIT on a previous episode, Danielle? Yeah. Give that a listen. Because she shared her insights into what life is like their at MIT. Stephanie Wang 39:37 And MIT snowed as well. And it never really snows knows where I live. So that would be great to see. Podcast Host 39:43 Well, I did ask Danielle, what is the coldest she's ever been? Because she was originally from Florida. And she said they stayed in the research labs for too long and it was quite a long walk to their dorms. And she said like it was an absolute blizzard outside and she said, that's the She's ever been. So if you like the snow, it might be a novelty factor there for the first year or so. But I think it might quickly wear off. I think that's what I've generally heard is that it's exciting for the first time and then not so exciting thereafter. But I'm sure it'd be an amazing experience to be among all those amazing students and right next to Harvard as well. So for people who don't know where MIT is, it's literally like one bus stop away from the grounds of Harvard. So you'll meet a lot of lovely, very, very clever people up there in Boston, which is fantastic. Now, Stephanie, you did say that people who contact you, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you? Stephanie Wang 40:36 I would say email would be the best because I check my email very often. And yeah, it's Stephanie.wang2004@gmail.com. And of course, you can just link it in the description as well. Podcast Host 40:47 I will put it in there for sure. Well, Stephanie, it's been awesome chatting, I think it's super inspiring for students who are interested in writing books, are we interested in making a change during COVID, who are interested in making a change in their curriculum, I do hope students who are interested in biology, particularly take you up on that fact to get the resources that you would make available. I think we won't leave that in the description because I think it's probably the right thing to do for people to actually contact you about that. So yeah, I would recommend students do that. And hopefully we can get this these messages and your book and your classroom, lesson plans, etc. and we can get that far and wide around the world, which would be fantastic. Stephanie Wang 41:27 Thank you so much, Alex. Thank you. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much again.

Ep #28 The 12-Year-Old Studying Aerospace Engineering at a Top US College

🗓 JAN 20, 2021

See transcript

Jamie Beaton 00:00 Welcome to the Top of the Class. I'm really excited today to be here with Caleb, Caleb is making headlines all around the world for his incredible academic ability. Alrighty, let's get started, Caleb. So to begin with, why don't you bring me back to your younger days? So, um, what were some things that were quite unique about your upbringing compared to you know, your average student? Caleb Anderson 01:06 I really think that, you know, my mom drove to teach me younger than a lot of other kids. I really think that, you know, she, she tried to teach me at a really early age. And I think that's one of the things that really brought me to where I am. Jamie Beaton 01:21 Yeah, I think that's a really consistent trait that I see in many high achieving young people that parents are really heavily involved early in their education. And was there a particular subject that you guys did a lot of teaching together? And she's like, math or something? Or was it across all the subjects? What was the focus area? Caleb Anderson 01:38 It was really all subjects. But I think that, you know, she really started with reading because, you know, that really helped us to communicate with each other. And then, you know, she went on to science, math, history and things like that. Jamie Beaton 01:52 Why don't you give everybody a bit of an update as to what you're up to now? So I was recently watching an interview did with CBS, where you, I think, just been admitted to Georgia Tech. So what does the world look like for you today? How your studies, you know, where are you at in those various programs? Caleb Anderson 02:08 Yeah, I did just get admitted to Georgia Tech, you know, I'm going there and fall 2021. But I think right now, I'm just trying to manage all my classes, especially during COVID, I take my first all science classes, um, this semester, so I have labs and things like that. And a lot of my classes are a bit late at night. And we have to wear masks when we walk in. So I think that's really you know, what everything looks like for me. But I think you know, that I can do this. And you know, even though it's a bit awkward, I think I can manage. Jamie Beaton 02:38 I'm very confident you can, I'm actually calling you today from New Zealand, which is one of the few places in the world that's currently quite COVID, free, as our Prime Minister has done quite a good job of locking down the borders. And we're quite a remote island. But I do miss the us quite a bit. I was there in both Boston and California for college and Business School. And I do miss it quite a bit. Now, if you think about your your academic journey and your age, what years would you say you had the kind of peak acceleration in terms of years of content you got through, you know, for a given year level. So for example, maybe from age into 11, you got through three years of high school content or something like this. So where would you say your fastest acceleration was? Caleb Anderson 03:20 Really thing is beginning in the end, you know, when I started college, I think that's, you know, I'm one of my periods of acceleration, you know, one of the greatest because college semesters cause one high school, you know, on full year, so, I'm doing High School, you know, I'm twice as fast. So I'm already you know, in my senior year, with this goal enrollment program, I'm doing high school and college at the same time. So, you know, I'm, if I'm doing full time I call it I'm doing High School twice as fast. And, you know, the early years, babies, you know, they make 3 million, I think it was 3 million neural neural connections a minute, um, you know, until there's the age of three, I really think that on my mom's, you know, saw this and she also saw, you know, my extreme, you know, aptitude for intellect. So, I think she, you know, I'm fed that an early age, and, you know, I was doing communication in fractions, you know, when I was two, so, um, you know, that's third grade things for that's for people, you know, four times my age. So that is another period, you know, when I was learning the quickest. Jamie Beaton 04:20 Okay, that makes a lot of sense. One kind of piece of my, I guess, academic philosophy that I really believed in is this idea of competency learning where you move based on your ability, you know, not your age. So, you know, I think to students like Tristan Pang, who was a student of mine a little while ago, who finished high school when he was 13, and then finished his first degree when he was 16. And now he's in Oxford doing his PhD when he's 17. And when I spoke to him, one of the key breakthrough insights he had was really, in school, if you just move at the pace, you'll teach the teaching you, you know, you're just going to be very arbitrarily constrained. But you know, he just chose to go super deep and math and just You know, keep digging and digging and digging and taking more and more advanced coursework. What's your view on competency learning? Do you think that there are many students who could systematically accelerate a little bit? Or do you think that this is, you know, this is something that is highly anomalous, and actually can't easily be replicated around the world. Caleb Anderson 05:20 I think that, you know, everybody has the aptitude to do this. But you know, I really think that, you know, that that one class that, you know, you're, it's really boring to you, and, you know, you don't feel like they were learning anything in that class, I think that's the class that, you know, you should be accelerated, and, you know, um, our modern, you know, our system, the whole path doesn't move on into the last student understands the subject. And, you know, there might be classes where you're bad at, and, you know, there might be classes where you're extremely good at, and, you know, there might be classes, we're just average out. And, you know, I think a good kind of learning would be accelerating at your own pace, you know, being slower at some classes and faster at other classes, you know, um, I have a friend, he goes to a hybrid homeschool, and, you know, he's doing sixth grade math, but he's doing 12th grade history, and things like that. And, you know, I think that, you know, that's a really good philosophy, you know, for the classroom. And I think it's a really good philosophy overall. Jamie Beaton 06:19 Yeah, I totally agree. Because I think, you know, people do have different expertise levels in various subjects. And so it's very arbitrary that you would go through all your subjects at the same speed. I totally agree. I also think there's like some subjects that are so content based, like, say biology or history and other subjects that require, you know, some really solid like quantitative reasoning, like math and physics. So your ability to process those two types of subjects can be quite different depending on what age you are, how did you find those more content based subjects, like the histories and the biologies compared to those subjects? like math, for example, where it's a lot more about calculations and quantitative reasoning? What was your strength initially? And how do you feel? Caleb Anderson 07:01 I'm definitely stronger, and you know, I'm verbal academics or academia, um, you know, I'm gonna history I know, I read extremely fast, I read a 12th grade level, I've been reading on 12th grade level, actually, for quite a while. And, you know, I really think that, you know, those are my strong suits. I'm not really too good at math, and I've never been good at math, but I still count on my fingers every once in a while. Um, so no, I don't think math is my strong sheet. But once you start doing it, and, you know, once you get to the fun parts of math, I think, you know, I am accelerating know, in my math, you know, I don't, I don't have to think as long for the know, the short calculations. And I really think that, you know, I'm becoming, you know, my grade level in that. Jamie Beaton 07:46 Now, I read the, you're interested in a lot of different career pathways, one being space, space exploration, aeronautical engineering, etc. And the second being law. And this is very close to home, as in my undergrad degree at Harvard, I did applied math, and that was quite an engineering focused topic, and then recently, actually began at law school. And so I have seen both of these worlds quite closely. And I'm very curious to hear from you, you know, what attracts you to these two different schools of thought? And where do you see your future life? Caleb Anderson 08:17 Well, I think the reason, you know, I'm really attracted to science and things like that, you know, I math is because, you know, it's harder for me, it's more of a challenge for me, you know, I think that it's not something that I would necessarily excel at, but you know, it's something that, you know, I'm gonna have to work for, I'm gonna have to, you know, strive to complete. And, you know, I, I like challenges. So, you know, I think, and I've always been fascinated with space anyways. So, you know, I don't want to have some easy, you know, some easy goal, you know, I want to push myself, and I think, the law, I think, you know, again, I I'm better at, you know, verbal things. So, I'm reading, talking, debating, things like that. So I think that, you know, if anything happens to, you know, my dream of helping people get up to space, you know, I think that I do have a fallback plan, something that, you know, I'm good at, and, you know, I'm, you know, I can make money, and you know, I can support myself until you know, I can get back up again. Jamie Beaton 09:12 One of our alumni actually a boy called Zong he was from New Zealand, actually. Then he went to Caltech. And now he's working for Tesla, which is quite cool, which I guess is one step removed from SpaceX. But, you know, these are really exciting companies that are attracting lots of young talent, what particular excites you about companies like SpaceX? Caleb Anderson 09:34 I think the difference between NASA and SpaceX is SpaceX is doing things that haven't been done before. And NASA is sticking to the formula that they already know, and trying to, you know, make it better. And I honestly think both of those things are good, you know, pushing, you know, the boundaries of reality, pushing the boundaries of, you know, the impossible and the impossible. You know, I think that's really important, but you know, playing it safe And trying to, you know, having a sort of primitive technology, trying to make it better, you know, trying to evolve it, I think that's, you know, and also a really good thing that you can do to, you know, I guess change humanity for the better. And people have to push the boundaries, say, the light bulb on Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla, or more Nikola Tesla, but he really had to, you know, push the boundaries, you know, say candles, you know, we don't use candles anymore. We're gonna use lights, this is better. But now we have, you know, these LED lights, we have these. We have these chandeliers. Now we have all enemies have all these kinds of, you know, lights, and, you know, they're all better than, you know, just a simple light bulb. And, you know, um, they're all more useful than just a simple white ball. I think that, you know, that really differentiates between what you know, companies like SpaceX, and what companies know, like NASA are doing. Jamie Beaton 10:53 I think watching this from afar, it does seem like basics has both the resourcing and the ambition to Yeah, push the boundaries, like you've said, and they've been able to attract many talented young people like yourself, you know, aspiring to go there who normally wouldn't enter the space sector, but you know, are entering it because of the level of innovation that we're seeing from Ilan and the team at SpaceX, which is, you know, quite powerful. The other thing is, it seems to be quite a phenomenon now that private space companies are driving innovation, whether it be, you know, Blue Origin from Jeff Bezos, or, you know, Musk's SpaceX, as opposed to the government organizations like NASA. So I think there hasn't been a time in human history before where private space entrepreneurs have driven so much of the innovation. What do you think is the role of the entrepreneur in the world? Do you think that government should be solving a lot of our big challenges? Or do you think that it should be folks like the Musk's of the world that go out there and try and deal with things like climate change and sustainability? Caleb Anderson 11:51 I really think people will, you know, like, Musk, you know, these people should start it. But I do think, you know, the government is going to be the one that ends it, you know, I think someone has to speak up, and, you know, tell people that, you know, this is a problem, or, you know, we have to do this. And, you know, I think, you know, people who step up like that, you know, people like Elon Musk, who are stepping up like that, you know, trying to, you know, change the world. You know, I think people like that, you know, are the people who are going to start these movements, but ultimately, you know, the government has more money, it has more, it has more power and more authority. And I think that, you know, if if, you know, the government says, hey, that's a good idea, let's try to uplift this, you know, it'll make the people feel better, we'll make the environment better in so you know, if they catch on to these ideas, and, you know, I really think that they're going to be the one, you know, I'm finishing off. Jamie Beaton 12:40 Yeah, I think that's very smart. In the case of, for example, here's where I know, they've received more than a billion in grants from the government to subsidize them on the basis of their, you know, renewable, sustainable efforts. So I think you're right, that the government does definitely enable some of these new technologies that might not be so cost effective. On a standalone basis, a lot of companies, a lot of countries, I should say, have been announcing his commitments to going to electric cars, when you're about 20. When you're about 25, what do you think the world is going to look like? You know, do you think there's going to be still a ton of kind of petrol cars in the road? Where do you think space travel will be? Give me some of your predictions? 10 years ahead. Caleb Anderson 13:21 10 years ahead, I really think that, you know, this decade, and you know, possibly even the next decade, someone will, you know, have gone to Mars, and you know, I'm really hoping for that. But you know, I don't think cars are gonna go away, they're cheaper, you know, then a little bit better for, you know, the economy, because, you know, there are a lot of these gas companies, and know, what are we going to do with all of these, you know, these 1000s of these millions of cars, that are, you know, are just sitting in people's backyards, you know, they're all gas, if we start making these electric cars cheaper, you know, people might start buying them, you know, the newer generation, and, you know, I don't think people you know, I don't really think cars will go away. But you know, I think the emission, you know, are going to, you know, slowly but surely, you know, I think they're gonna go down. Jamie Beaton 14:10 And I get some truly interesting speaking to a student as motivated as you What do you think motivates you? What, what gets you up every day to attend these classes at midnight? Or to, you know, get into college early? You know, where does the drive come from? And what keeps you going? Caleb Anderson 14:24 I think a lot of people are counting on me, you know, especially, you know, since, you know, the story broke and things like that, you know, a lot of people have their attention on me. I think that and, you know, a lot of my friends and a lot of my family, you know, they're looking at me, as well. So I think that's, you know, one of the things that motivates you, or me, and I think, you know, the other thing is, you know, it's fun, it's a little bit hard to explain, you know, I don't particularly you know, like like doing the work, but I do like learning and I think, you know, work is part of learning and you know, that's just a step that I have to take. And, you know, it is fun, you know, just learning new things, you know, having information, you know, in my brain that I can use, you know, help the world and know, I'm, everyone's gonna want to talk to my friends, you know, I think that, um, you know, just being able to learn, you know, being able to see, oh, this is how this works or, you know, this is how the world works, that's one of the things that really motivates me. Jamie Beaton 15:21 And that's the end, I guess, reflecting back on your journey, so far, it's, you know, gone quite incredibly, anything that you would go back and change, like, anything you wish you learned that you haven't learned yet, etc, or you feel like it's been pretty solid. Caleb Anderson 15:35 I think that, you know, there are a lot of paths that it could have taken that, you know, might have been easier. But no, I could have, um, you know, actually gone to college a year before. So, you know, I might have been in Georgia Tech now. So I think that's one of the things that, you know, I would have done, but, um, I didn't, you know, there are a lot, there are some schools that, you know, I didn't really I didn't like, and I really feel like I wasted some of my time there. So I think that, you know, I if, you know, going to, you know, a better more stem focused school, I think that, you know, would have been, you know, better spent time. Other than that, I don't really think there's a lot I could have changed, there's some stuff that you know, that I would have changed, but you know, it's outside of my control, like the pandemic. But, you know, other than that, you know, there's really nothing, I'm really glad you know, where I am. And, you know, it's not perfect, but, you know, it's the way life goes. And, you know, I personally like my wife, Jamie Beaton 16:32 yeah, no, it's, it's incredible. I think I'm reflecting back on my high school journey, probably, I would have switched French for Mandarin, because I guess there will be a lot more useful probably, in modern careers, given the rise of China, and then I would have proceeded to take in computer science, but apart from that, you know, I was also quite content. How do you like languages? You know, do you put much focus on languages, or not, not too much of an interesting to you, Caleb Anderson 16:55 I don't think languages are, I've learned six languages in the past, but I only remember a little bit of like, middle school, high school Spanish. So I think that, you know, I should have put a little bit more focus into languages, but Americans are lazy, and, you know, everybody's learning English now. So I don't think it's going to be too much of a problem. But, you know, I do wish that, you know, I could have communicated with people in the native language, you know, I think it's much more polite. Jamie Beaton 17:27 What's really interesting, now thinking forward to your role models, so who are some of the people that you know, you're just really inspired by, you follow, you're excited by who some of those role models, both in your immediate community and then in the wider world, Caleb Anderson 17:41 immediate community, definitely, my parents, the reason they work is for us, though, sometimes they don't really realize it. Um, you know, and sometimes, you know, I don't care, but, um, you know, they're trying to do the best they can. And, you know, I, you know, I really want to, you know, imitate that. And I really respect that. And, you know, in more of the wider world, I have three, you know, I'm really big role models, Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, as a black person, you know, I really respect what she did for this Husky airman, and, you know, for the entire civil rights movement, you know, as a whole, she, you know, she pushed the boundaries, you know, she tried, she tried to, you know, change America. And, you know, even she even changed, you know, some of the whole world, you know, by, you know, being a white lady, you know, trying trying to respect black people, and Native Americans and, and, you know, things like that, um, Nikola Tesla, he, you know, Thomas Edison, kind of, you know, stole his idea, but he didn't care, you know, he kept on working, even though he knew it would happen. And Thomas Edison literally made a bet for $50,000 if you could, you know, invent the basic idea for the light bulb. And, you know, Nikola Tesla did it. And, you know, Thomas Edison was like, No, I'm gonna pay you, like, $10 an hour. I think that was horrible what he did to him, but you know, um, you know, he kept on going, and, you know, he invented, you know, other things. And, you know, he did change the world. And lastly, I think Neil Neil deGrasse Tyson, um, you know, again, as a black person, you know, he made it, and, you know, it really shows me that I can make it incredible. Jamie Beaton 19:20 And what do you think of Kamala Harris becoming the VP in the US? You know, her being the first Caleb Anderson 19:26 woman Vice President, the first woman, I know, the first black Vice President, the first vice president, as a daughter of immigrants, and, you know, I'm all of those except a woman, you know. So, you know, I think that, you know, again, it also shows that, you know, you can be whoever you want to be regardless of the amount of melanin in your skin, regardless of you know, your gender, you know, regardless of your disabilities, regardless of your, you know, your sexuality, you know, regardless of anything you you can be who you want to be. Jamie Beaton 19:58 I think it's a very inspiring message and And yeah, I think people all around the world are, you know, watching the US fascination obviously, I've never, for example seen in New Zealand, so many people are fascinated by the US elections as they are now, you know, for obvious reasons. And I think this new era will, you know, hopefully see a return to a normal us presidency, what do you think? You know, we're Caleb Anderson 20:19 still gonna feel a little bit of backlash, but, you know, especially since you know, the attack on the Capitol, there might be more of these terrorism acts. And, you know, I live pretty close to Atlanta. So I'm a bit worried. But I really think that once you know, our new president comes in, I think that you know, um, things will start changing, and hopefully for the better, nothing's gonna be perfect. President Biden and vice president Harris are not going to be perfect. But you know, I think that they're gonna start, you know, distribute the Coronavirus, Coronavirus vaccine, and they're gonna try to, you know, change, like, minorities. And you know, I'm in the US. And I think that we're going to try to make, you know, the US as an example for other countries, Jamie Beaton 21:01 while sit will sit Okay, and then taking, I guess, a final little detour. How do you think about extracurriculars? So when you're going through school, to all these great academics, you know, how relevant were things like sports or like community service or other things to you? Was that a big focus? And I asked this, because, you know, many of our students around the world apply to the US for college, and a big part of the application process is typically, extracurriculars, leadership, you know, personal statements, that kind of thing. So how have you waited kind of those don't academic things? Is that been a focus for you? Or have you been just so busy with all of his academic? Caleb Anderson 21:37 Yes, COVID, I haven't really been able to do a lot of extra clicks here activities, but, um, I put in semi competitively, you know, in my neighborhood, and, you know, I dance, um, you know, which is really fun, but I don't think extracurricular activities are too much of a focus for me, I, you know, try to I try to help out my local church. Again, since COVID. I haven't really been able to do any community service, any meal, sports, anything like that. But um, you know, previously, I think that I have been able to, you know, help my baby. Jamie Beaton 22:08 Got it. Got it. Okay. Now, since you're really in a great place, you've accelerated nicely, you're starting in Georgia Tech shortly. I'm sure you'll get a strong GPA. What are some of your goal? graduate schools, you would want to go to graduate school something you're excited by? what particular degree programs? You know, are you interested? I guess law school is one of them. But yeah, any any particular degrees you're kind of excited to do in the future. Caleb Anderson 22:32 Massachusetts Institute of Technology, I think that's my dream school. I know that MIT, you know, Georgia Tech is one of the best schools for aerospace engineering in the country. But I know MIT is just a little bit better. Um, you know, they have more money, you know, they have better technology, you know, um, you know, they have better students. And, you know, it's okay, if you graduated from Georgia Tech, you know, on this MIT this route, I mean, I'm just gonna go on to Georgia Tech. But I really, you know, I really hoped to, you know, go to MIT and get my PhD. They're amazing. Jamie Beaton 23:01 It's a fantastic goal. And, you know, recently your story has been really inspiring many young people around the world as they hear about your, you know, really amazing acceleration. So how have you been handling this kind of media? attention? Has it been quite fun? Has it been challenging? Has it been annoying? Tell me a bit about that experience. Caleb Anderson 23:18 It's definitely been fun talking to people from around the world to new perspectives on you know, just someone like me, you know, I'm just a little 12 year old from Georgia. Um, you know, you know, it's, it's been fun, it's been interesting, you know, I'm seeing people's takes on me. And, you know, people say to my parents, and, you know, my learning, every once in a while, can get annoying. If I have three or four interviews in one day. That's, that's not fun. I can't really do my work. I can't really, you know, watch TV or play any games or anything like that. But, you know, it's not really too much of a hindrance. And yeah, I think that's, you know, we are mostly, you know, really fun, and I do really enjoy this. Jamie Beaton 24:00 That's great. And lastly, you know, it's easy to look at a student as incredibly gifted as you and assume that, you know, you don't do much for fun, you know, you cranked academics, but you know, talking to you, it's clear that you probably have, you know, but a balance as well. So, what kind of things do you do for fun? You know, do you play any particular video games you like, or any movies you like, you know, what do you do when you just want to relax? Caleb Anderson 24:21 I like anime. I love Marvel movies. I like these Japanese toys called beyblades, nerf, transformers. My dad introduced me to the old like 1980s Transformers when I was six. And I actually since i think that you know, on most of my arm, things I do for fun. I really like hanging out with my friends. You know, it's been it's gotten a bit harder during COVID we quarantine ourselves and then we we hang out. But I don't really think that I know a lot of people see me as you know, this nerd who solves Rubik's Cubes when I'm nervous. or something like that. Um, that's, you know, a lot of my friends is here as like, you know, go to a different school. And you know, a lot of people don't tell me that I'm emotionally mature as well, especially for my age, you know, I can sit in the classroom with people, you know, twice my age, and not be bothered by it. And you know, they're not really bothered by me know, a lot of people know who I see, you know, actually don't know my age, and they're really surprised to know my age, they just think I'm sure. So I don't think I'm really nerdy. I just think I have good grades. Jamie Beaton 25:37 Yeah, no, no, I can attest, you know, you're very mature for your age, I don't think I've spoken about, you know, US presidential elections with many 12, 13, 14 year old before in my life. So this is very exciting to me. In any final advice you'd give to our listeners around the world. Caleb Anderson 25:55 Definitely believe in yourself. I know, it's real. It's pretty cheesy. But I think that's very important. Because a lot of people tell you that you're not allowed to do this, or you can't do this. But you know, you don't know something's possible. Until you know, someone does it. People think back hundreds of years ago, people thought that, you know, we wouldn't have these flying missiles. But you know, we do we know people who invented this kind of stuff. And a lot of people told, you know, these people like Henry Ford, you know, this is impossible, but he did it, you know, he created cars, you know, people told Nikola Tesla, hey, you can't make a electricity candle, but he did it, we have light bulbs. So you know, I think that, you know, that's believing in yourself. And you know, not listening to what other people tell you. And you know, really important. Another thing is not being afraid to fail, you will learn more from failure than from success. Everyone has failed at least once every famous actor, every famous engineer, every famous entrepreneur, they've all you know, hit the downward spiral, you know, they've all hit rock bottom. But you know, they got back up, and they learn from their mistakes. So I think that's, you know, another really important thing, you know, to success. Jamie Beaton 27:07 Incredible. Thanks, Caleb. Well, that’s been a real blast. That's everything for today. But yeah, I just want to say, you know, it's very inspiring your story. I do meet many students around the world over ambitious, but I think what you've achieved so far is incredible. And you should keep it up. The momentum is so strong, and I'm sure you're going to achieve some wild things I look forward to following the story. Also, I have many of my alumni that place that MIT, etc. So let me know if I can be useful to connect from you to any of them. And, you know, more than happy to help, but yeah, keep it up. Keep it up. I'll be cheering you on. Caleb Anderson 27:37 All right. Thank you. Podcast Host 27:38 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

Ep #27 Building Businesses that Change the World with Young Australian of the Year, Nathaniel Diong

🗓 JAN 16, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And this episode is packed with amazing advice from the founder and CEO of the Future Minds Network and young Victorian of the Year, Nathaniel Diong. With a burning desire to change the world for the better. Nathaniel turned to entrepreneurship. And today, more than 11,000 students have learned the fundamentals of how to start a business through the Future Minds Network. Nathaniel discusses the misconceptions around entrepreneurship, and how to get started today. Let's chat with Nathaniel Diong. Nathaniel, Welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Nathaniel 00:53 Yeah, thanks for having me, Alex. Well, I'm Daniel, I'm the CEO of future mines network. And I've been working to unlock the endless potential of youth, whilst tackling stemming unemployment through entrepreneurship. So we've been really lucky to work with 11,000 Youth across the world to build human skills, a growth mindset and create their own jobs through startups. Podcast Host 01:14 Right. It sounds like you've done that quite a few times. When did you start future minds network? Nathaniel 01:19 Yes, I actually started the exodus theme. And it really came from a place of helplessness. And I grew up feeling really helpless to make a difference where 1000s of people died each day. And so I actually, I got clinically diagnosed with depression, because I spent a lot of time thinking about people in the world who would die. And I wanted young people to realize they could make a difference and realize their own potential. Podcast Host 01:41 I think that's an interesting take that you go to Ward's creating an organization or building a network of people. When the enormity of the issue is weighing so heavily on your shoulders, it can be very difficult to kind of say, what can I do as one person? I think a lot of people get weighed down by that, right? They see the world's issues, and they think, well, what can I do? And you're like, well, I might not be able to do much as one person. But if I put together a whole group of people, and created a network now that has a bit more power, was that your thinking behind creating future minds network? Nathaniel 02:16 Yeah, like for me, you know, I spent like six years thinking about what I could do to make a difference. And it really just started from an idea. I thought to myself, What if we could do this? What if we could run a conference where we could gather people just like me, and see what we could do? And so you know, sometimes I wish I had this grand idea that I create a company that would influence 1000s, and millions. But it really, it never intended to be a company. I started it off as a gathering of 100 yachties. And it just grew from there. Podcast Host 02:48 Where did you go about finding those emojis? I mean, like you were trying to find people like you, how many people will like you at school? Did you have to go too far outside of that community to find these 100 young ladies, Nathaniel 03:01 I think in terms of people like me, not many, because I spent a lot of time by myself thinking about these issues, and really trying to dissect and understand the world around me, like, at 10 years old, the world, like cracks already began to form in a perfect world where I realized that, you know, it was an absolute privilege to have a bed to sleep on every night. And you have to be on the table and to have water. And I think particularly if this conference, what I realized was young people really do want to make a difference, but they just don't know how they don't have the right tools to do so. And they don't know where to start. And so we see this increasingly, like even see on social media, where young people are getting more work, if you will, and more aware of the issues around them, and using advocacy as a way to do that. But for me, I wanted to do more than that. And I wanted to be able to create tangible projects where we could actually see the impact happen. And so that's where I stumbled into entrepreneurship. And the journey began. Podcast Host 03:57 It's very interesting to kind of take that leap from advocacy to projects and tangible, actual action. How big a leap was that? And was that a big challenge for you? Nathaniel 04:08 Yeah, definitely a big challenge. And by all means, I don't think like advocacy or entrepreneurship should be one or the other. I definitely think like, in order for us to work as a society, they really have to coexist. Yeah. And you can't have entrepreneurship without advocacy. And you can't have advocacy without entrepreneurship. There's not one that's better than the other or one that's like more superior in that sense. And in terms of elite to me, I literally, I mean, and to this day, I'm a big believer that nobody knows anything. And so for me, it was just a process of just trying and figuring out what I could do. I literally started with a conference and I thought about, okay, how can we actually turn this conference into something where we make tangible projects. And so I started this idea of a hackathon. And I explored that and then eventually it turned into a fully fledged program where I began running it at high schools across Australia and so on. For me, I think it's a very like entrepreneurship mindset in the sense that I really had to just build, measure and learn everything I did. And from that I was able to see what worked and what didn't, and really understand what are the intricacies? And how do I actually run a program like this. And so like throughout the whole program, like, and my whole journey, the company and its vision has constantly evolved. I wouldn't say that even now I have like, one set definition of what it is. But that's the beauty of it. Like just like a team culture. And just like, the world that we live in today, everything is constantly evolving and changing. Did you have any co founders, so I was doing a solo, I had a, I had a team of about eight, so I had a cabinet of eight at my school. And so they helped me to sort of coordinate the conference. There were some mishaps in the conference, actually, on the day, we had one entire school rock up that we didn't account for. And so he had an additional like, 30 people to feed with no budget to do so I'll venue space got cancelled three times. So we had to re navigate. And the project and technology shut down for an hour. Podcast Host 06:06 Of course it does. Like the one thing you can almost certainly bank on is the time you run your first conference, that object is going to shut down. Nathaniel 06:15 And so like throughout the whole process, like we have to add live, we have to find icebreakers to fill in the time do new activities. And I feel like you know, that first taste of running that conference is exactly what entrepreneurship is like us, as a founder, you have to do everything from marketing, to pitching to business modeling. And a lot of the time things aren't going to go your way. But being able to adapt in these times of uncertainty and extreme pressure is what's going to help you in the future. And I think like during the moment, I very much considered the conference as a failure. I was like I did such a bad job as a leader, you know, I should have been able to see these risks in advance. But looking back, it was a really valuable learning experience for me to see that now, even if you plan, the best conference in the world, mistakes are gonna happen. And it was two or three years ago, I was actually chatting to someone who'd been to the conference. And they said, it was absolutely amazing. And I talked to them about like everything that happened. And they're like, really, I had no idea. And to me that that really amazed me. Because in the moment, I was like, This is the worst thing I've ever done in my life. I've made the biggest mistakes. And so it's really interesting to see those two different perspectives where, you know, you can be really harsh on yourself in the moment. But failure is really just another learning experience. So you'd build measure and Linda? Podcast Host 07:35 Yeah, absolutely. And you do say build, measure and learn. And you say that as if it's like something that you approach almost everything you do with that philosophy of build, measure, learn. What are some of the metrics that you use to build, measure, learn? Nathaniel 07:51 I think it really depends, depends on what what projects you're running. But typically, like, in everything that you do, particularly if you're if you're building your own business, for example, you're really testing a bunch of assumptions, right? And so it really starts with the customer. So customer is king in everything, and being able to understand what are the pain points that they actually suffering from? And what how does my solution? Or how does my company actually fix that? A lot of people approach entrepreneurship, thinking that, you know, I have the best solution in the world, I'm going to change this problem forever. But I forget that the customer is at the core of that problem. And so whether build measure land comes in, is really testing these hypotheses on these customers and understanding what is the biggest problem that they're facing right now? How can we focus our priorities on that, rather than trying to force something or the best product in the world onto them? Podcast Host 08:46 What is it like being a student entrepreneur, though? Do you think it is easier to be a entrepreneur or entrepreneurial student? Or is it easier to be an entrepreneurial 20 to 23 year old? Nathaniel 09:00 It's it's a double edged sword with everything. Particularly when you're younger, there's more room to fail. Yes. And that's because nobody really expects you to do anything better. And so if you come in fresh faced 17 1819 start a business and it fails. No one bad tonight. But if you're 34 years old, trying to sell into like a new career, if you fail, there's a lot more at stake, you have to think about family car mortgage housing. But beyond that, there's a lot about reputation and what other people will think of you. But when you're young, not only do people not have any expectations of what you should do, because they think you should be studying. But people are also a lot more willing to help you because they've been there before. They have been young people who've had amazing ideas of the world that they want to create, but haven't been supported to do so. And so a lot of the times you'll get, you know, political entrepreneurs from Y Combinator or Forbes 30 under 30 actually come back and teach the students because they're doing what they wish they had. when they're younger, and so very much we see this in our programs that future minds Well, we have amazing entrepreneurs come in and teach these students and everything from customer discovery and validation, all the way to how to create a business model and pitching. And it's all based on wanting to give back, because they wish they could have started their business at 16 instead of 20. Podcast Host 10:21 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think I think there's a lot of people who would love to see entrepreneurship being a bigger feature of the school curriculum. And I, you know, there's the argument that people like Gary Vee often make that school failed him because it didn't give him the toolkit to be an entrepreneur, and he had to kind of self learned, did you have to self learn it too? Like, were you kind of just going on YouTube or talking to people? How were you approaching the discovery and experience of entrepreneurship and trying to learn what to do? Nathaniel 10:51 It was all learning by doing. And so you know, when you when somebody wants to learn soccer, right, you don't tell them to sit on the bench and watch someone else play soccer for a week. Because that only helps when you know what you're watching for. Get them to get on the field, start playing gel, start playing games, losing over and over again, and practicing and practicing and practicing until we get better. And so for me, that was the exact same process, I just started building things when they didn't work. I use that as an opportunity to think about what did I learn from this experience, because failure is just feedback, right? It's telling me what's not working and what I can do better. And so the other thing I did was really surrounded myself with community, I surrounded myself with people who I looked up to in the space, and try to learn from them, like very much like law of attraction that you might have heard of, yeah, but being able to manifest and if that's something that you want to become, in the future, hang around those people, and really being able to understand and realize that, Hey, I know nothing now. But there's a whole world of opportunity where I can learn more, I think the other thing was consistently putting myself into ditching me, I went into like seven different startup programs across Australia, where I got to learn through a program, which is meant to give birth to startups. And so I got to learn from the weight Institute from Fitzroy Academy, catalyze a lot of different programs, where the whole process was them teaching you how to learn by doing and constantly pushing you to fail, Podcast Host 12:23 did interesting kind of concept of learning by doing I think there's some people who are doing but not learning at the same time, like they're just doing and they're pushing forward, or they're too attached to their idea. And then they externalize blame, oh, it was these things that were the issue, not my product, not my marketing, not my this, that or the other. It was everything else. But me that was the issue. How do you switch that kind of thinking to take responsibility, take ownership of what is going right? And more importantly, what is going wrong? without necessarily feeling without feeling weighed down by the failures and thinking that maybe entrepreneurship isn't for you, right? Like, how do you keep the motivation going, as you're taking responsibility for the failures, because that must be a bit of a tricky thing to do. Nathaniel 13:13 It's a delicate balance. Because obviously, you know, we talked about this trait called pathological optimism, where you continue to fail, even though you know, you will fail, and you go into that failing again, and again, and again, and you constantly get up. And that's one of the biggest and best things that I've found that can have in mindset. But the other hand is, it's also really important for founders to know when to stop, you know, when an idea is not working and be able to pivot or persevere. Those are the two options that we often hear about. I think, particularly when we talk about an idea and holding yourself dear to the failures that happen, I've definitely encountered that before. One of the things that I've had is almost thinking about your idea as a rock, right? It's not your baby, it's not part of you. It's a rock sitting on the table. And so when people talk to you about your idea and give you ideas about that idea, or they give you feedback on the idea, they're not criticizing you, they're describing the rock. And they're giving you feedback on how to shape that into a better towel than you could ever imagine before. And so I think really taking this perspective and being able to process feedback is something that takes a while as well, because there is a beauty in being able to create something of your own. Because it's like your baby, right? Like when you start a podcast, you're proud of that. Oh, yeah, I think that you've made right and you can't take away from that. But I think what really differentiates success is being able to see your idea as a rock and allow other people to describe that for you and see what they see because you're going to be able to really understand all these different perspectives that you might never have seen before. People could be seeing the rock from a completely different angle. Like it could be in front of you here, but they could be describing the crevices on the other side. Podcast Host 14:55 I love that idea because I feel like in my life at the moment, my brother is Got his own business? Yeah. And I feel like he is the business. Right, he hasn't been able to externalize the business from him. So when people are critical of the business, he feels like Nathaniel 15:11 an attack on yourself. Podcast Host 15:12 Yeah, right. Right, he feels it and it gets him down. And that kind of stuff when he kind of used that thinking of the rock or externalized. And being like, it's not a criticism of me, it's just feedback on the rock, right, which is, you know, the rock that you've created and whatnot, but still, it's, you know, perfectly fine to give feedback to that external piece of piece of yourself, then that's, that's, I think, super, super important. Nathaniel 15:35 The other thing is like being really conscious of who you take feedback from? Yes, the way that I sort of think about it is I almost have like three buckets of where I see feedback. So there are like one or two people that I really look up to. And I really value that advice, because I know they have, like experience, particularly in the industry of education. And they have valuable insight that there are two to five people who have some involvement in entrepreneurship and know the space well, that I sort of trust. And when I hear that advice, I'll consider it or not consider it. And then there's everyone else who has never started a startup before has never worked in education. And the opinions won't really influence the decisions I make. And so it's really important because often, when you're first in your journey, you're listening to everybody, because you want to receive all that advice. But when you do that, people might point you in all different directions, and you won't know where to go. So knowing what to regulate. And when people do describe that rock, knowing what to receive and what not to receive is also a really good trait as well like having one or two trusted people, where you know that they probably have the best angle that you've never thought about and being able to consider that. But then also having the bucket where people describe that rock and they tell you what to do. But knowing that if they have no experience, and you don't trust what they have to say, then it's totally okay to stick to your guns. 100% I Podcast Host 16:57 think it's a really interesting concept of those unsolicited advice that you get 17:03 a lot, right. Yeah, yeah. So Podcast Host 17:05 how do you pretend to listen to the unsolicited advice without necessarily being, you know, mean, or cutting people off? Like, they're obviously trying to give advice, because they feel that their advice would be helpful at this point in time and whatnot. But like, if you haven't chosen them, as your trusted source, how do you kind of sit there and nod and say, Oh, yes, that's very interesting. I'll definitely give that a go. Like, how do you handle that? Nathaniel 17:29 I don't think you have to necessarily, like be fake about it, and nod and agree. But the way that I tend to deal with it is I like to listen first and completely, like, I might spend one or two days actually processing the information, somebody told me next one or two days, I won't receive it straightaway. And so I really acknowledge it because I genuinely care about the advice they're giving me. But I'll look at my own values, I look at what I've learnt and see where does that actually fit in? If it challenges my beliefs? Is it challenging it in a way that will result in progress? Or is it challenging it in a way that will just serve to put me down? Because sometimes the advice that you get is completely unconstructive. People might just say your ideas, horrible idea doesn't have customers, the idea doesn't have a market, which may be true. And so being able to have that time to weigh up these options, and really understand where they're coming from, Podcast Host 18:25 I think it's really important as well. I think sometimes like parents, they can be so well meaning, but at the end of the day, they might not know a huge amount about what you're trying to achieve. And other friends might say, well, well, I know you so well. And you're like yes, but you might be a bit of a negative Nelly, and I love you for it. But in this case, I'm going to choose who I take my advice from. So when you're thinking of the people who you take your advice from, what was your selection criteria for that, like, what were you trying to, or who were you trying to pick and for what reasons, Nathaniel 18:54 and we're not talking about people that I trust or information that I trust, I always look for things that challenge my perspective. And so particularly, it's almost like I seek out people who don't think like me, is often in the space, it's easy to get trapped in your own bubble. And I think we see this in our friendship groups as well, obviously, the friends that we have people who are a lot like us, because we don't want the disagreement, and we don't have it, we just want to hang out and have a good time. And so for me, I like to hang out with people who have a lot of different perspectives to me. So for example, you know, in the education space, someone that I talked to about education innovation is Janette chia from the hacker exchange. So she has a really interesting insight about what the future of work is going to look like, how startups are going to influence that and how the gig economy is constantly changing, that I might not have the same expertise of. So I see the rock, I see the angle, but I see that angle from the person of a young person who's trying to navigate the world of work Janette, she sees it in the perspective of someone who's been in the industry and who's worked in innovation for 1015 years. And so being able to identify what are the things that I'm looking for? And who do I want to challenge my perspectives really helped me to pick the people that I want to spend my time around. Podcast Host 20:11 Yeah, that sounds like a pretty important part of the entrepreneurship process, right? Like you've got your product or your service idea, and you've got all these other bits and pieces. But I think knowing who your trusted sources are, knowing who your community or your support group is, is almost as important as the initial idea in itself, right? Because you know, you need people who will be straight with you will tell you exactly what they're thinking without necessarily being too negative or too nasty about it. So you have been really smart about who you choose, and your support group can be a super important thing. Would you recommend students to choose some older people as well as younger people? Because I mean, I'm sure most kids will look around, you know, in their group. Yeah, as you said, like your circle of friends. Usually you'll find people who agree with you, but I'm willing to guess most students would take their best advice, or their most advice in their circle of friends, and their parents most likely. Nathaniel 21:08 It really depends. I mean, if you have a group of people and all of your friends have businesses that all 17 year old business tycoons, then sure, and the other thing is, maybe they don't have to be business tycoons. Maybe you're working on a idea around disability, and maybe the people that you consult, and your friends are people who've lived with disability, think that's something that we really pushed out programs is, you know, entrepreneurship at future minds isn't just about skills building. That's also about jobs building and mindset building, and thinking about all these different perspectives, and how can I gain insights, and open my mind up to feedback without being overwhelmed by feedback, it doesn't necessarily have to be an older person that you take advice from, but someone with different with experience, or from what I hear from young people is, I don't have enough experience. And I get where that comes from. Because often people think age is experience. But in reality, it's not. Just because you're younger doesn't mean you don't have as much experience means you have a different experience. So depending on the product or service that you're serving the market for. If for example, you're doing work, working with teenagers who love playing video games, and you're developing a solution there, maybe your friends are the best people to talk to because they are the customer. So it really depends on the scenario that you're dealing with. Yeah, Podcast Host 22:28 love that. Love that. How did you say entrepreneurship, helping to solve the issue of injustice and poverty and helping people in different circumstances around the world? Because I think when most students think of entrepreneurship, they're just thinking like money in the bank. Right? So when you think of entrepreneurship, you obviously saw that it could be a solution to some other problems. And how did that come about? And how is the connection continued to grow since then? Nathaniel 22:58 To get context, right now we're in a global unemployment crisis. So 2.8 million young ladies in the next 10 years, need to be significantly rescale. That's seven and 10, Yama, Z's, right. Enterprise skills, human skills, already three times more in demand than technical by employers, and technical is everything that we learn at school. And so entrepreneurship is that gap that bridges all of those things. It does skills building does jobs building, and it does mindset building. And more than that entrepreneurship is a canvas to create change in the world. I started understanding that with entrepreneurship, you could essentially create your own business on anything. And so the way that it really formed was, how might we work with young people to create impact driven businesses? Because what I found was a lot of young people had amazing ideas of how they wanted to change the world. But they just didn't know where to start. Because it seemed too far fetched. Yes, business seem too complicated. It seem like it cost too much capital. And so a lot of it was giving them the blueprint to actually do that. But along the way, we realized that within the education space, it has this endless capacity to help young people into future employment, because you practice things like financial literacy, when you're building your business model. Practice things like communication, when you're pitching. And these are all future skills for a lot of work. Podcast Host 24:18 So like, entrepreneurship isn't just the experience of starting a business, it doesn't matter what the business is, because you will be learning the skills of financial interesting pitching, etc. So it's like, it's like almost a whole new extracurricular, right, because everyone's like, Oh, go do sport. It will teach you teamwork or go down music, it will, you know, make you smarter. But you're like if you want to build a tangible, real world skill set, practice entrepreneurship. Nathaniel 24:45 Yeah. 100%. And the goal of entrepreneurship isn't always to become an entrepreneur. Because whether you succeed or fail, you would have learned skills that are so valuable for future employment. And so we've had what 11,000 young people Go to the program now. So young people from 50 different cultures have gone on to land jobs at UNICEF, build companies with more than 50 employees and gain their own financial freedom. But beyond that those who haven't started their own businesses, they've gained really valuable skills, things like critical thinking, like problem solving, like analytical reasoning, and they've been able to apply it in their own lives to find better employment. Podcast Host 25:25 Now we're getting it because why not? Yeah, I guess, like, my understanding of entrepreneurship was a little bit one dimensional, right? It was like start a business make money, but I didn't really think about it is the skill set and how that skill set can continue to impact you in other areas of life, beyond school, within school, all kinds of different ways. And as you say, like can help to alleviate some of the global issues that are out there, whether that be through starting your own company and employing people donating money. Yeah, because that's why I was trying to think like When most people think I want to make a difference in the world, and I want to help, and I think most students go to the side of, well, I guess I've got to raise money, right, you know, guess we do a casual clothes day. And everyone donates a little bit of money to wear casual clothes. And I guess you're you're kind of thinking bigger and bolder than that. And you're saying I don't know, like, it's about building a skill set first and making long term changes and building a long term skill set for long term impact. Nathaniel 26:20 And sometimes, maybe the donation drives are the best way to do things. Because one of the really important things if entrepreneurship is really being able to understand the customer you're solving for. And so if you do have, like, if you're working with people in Yemen, for example, and you're not from Yemen, and you don't understand the problems they're facing, most likely a business is going to fail. And it's probably not going to make any impact either. It's the same thing where we get you know, policymakers who say young people are the future leaders of tomorrow, but they don't consult young people. And so nothing habits. Yeah, there's no impact that's made. And so you know, when we talk about problems we often think about, you know, have you ever heard of the vitamin best painkiller example? Podcast Host 26:59 And no, Nathaniel 27:00 yeah, okay. So if you take a vitamin every single day, right, and you miss it once, nothing happens. But if you have a burning headache, you'll do anything, and you'll pay anything to get a painkiller. The other side of the spectrum is oxygen. So things you can't live without. So if you go for an entire day, without technology, your phone, the internet, the world's basically going to end, right. So when we think about vitamin, Painkiller, and oxygen, these are the same as how painful our problems are. So if you've got oxygen, you've hit gold. Yeah, something people can live with that. If you have a vitamin. It's a nice addition. But people probably won't care that much about it. painkiller, solving a big pain, that's when you've also hit God, so painkiller and oxygen, because at the end of the day, like each of the businesses that you've run, whether it be impact or not impact, aren't immune to the challenges of business, you still have to finance and what people are going to pay for are things that solve pain points, because there's so many other things to care about. So when we bring that back to the example, you're not solving a painful problem in Yemen, or in your local community, that's not going to be successful business. Podcast Host 28:13 Yeah, fundraising certainly has its place. I'm not saying fundraising is useless thing. I'm just saying like, it's interesting to kind of look at a problem and to think about it in different ways. Nathaniel 28:22 There's a funny story, like, because I started off my journey, fundraising as well. And so one year I did the 40 hour famine, and you might know that 40 hour famine is this competition, where for 40 hours, you give up things you love. This one year, I gave up food, water, technology, transport, furniture, talking, it's Podcast Host 28:44 Oh, my gosh, you went extreme? Nathaniel 28:46 Yeah, yeah. So I was like, completely silent the whole day, didn't eat anything. I had to sleep on the floor, couldn't sit on chairs. But yeah, that was like one of the experiences that you know, where I started off, donating and trying to make my impact there. And then gradually, I stumbled into entrepreneurship. So Podcast Host 29:05 really lucky to have had that journey. Yeah. And you saw that that entrepreneurship could have I guess, longer lasting change, and you could sleep on a bed and sitting on a bed, 29:15 which is a good thing. Podcast Host 29:17 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'm interested in your entrepreneurship toolkit, right? So you've got all these different things that are going out there different apps, is there anything that you personally rely on and say, yeah, these are my go to that I use every day. Nathaniel 29:29 Honestly, there aren't any apps or systems in place that are going to make you successful. And there aren't any that you really need to be an entrepreneur, but some good ones just for fun. Things like figma, where you can start prototyping UI and UX. But you can do the exact same job just on paper and do paper prototyping and do sketches and wireframes that, you know, you can use everything from Google Docs to notion to air table where you get to start information, but I think the biggest thing is really starting with what is the problem that I'm solving, as we talked about before? Is it a vitamin painkiller and oxygen, and having open and honest conversations with the customers you're solving the problem for? So I think really like, applications are one thing, but just start and you'll find things that work better for you along the way. Podcast Host 30:21 When you say just start, what would be the first thing, the first point on the to do list that students should have? If they want to get into entrepreneurship more, because I know that there's a lot of students, and also podcast hosts who might suffer a little bit from paralysis by analysis, right? where it's like, I need to know more, I need to research more, and you're obviously an advocate of doing, but I think there's a lot of people who will say, Okay, yeah, look, I get the benefits of doing, but I need to kind of lay a little bit of groundwork first, before I feel ready to do the doing. So what would be some of those initial steps that you think students could take within the next 24 hours or so to start getting their business pointing in the right direction, Nathaniel 31:10 find the problem of solving, find something that you're passionate about, and you're able to relate to, or can connect to, or if you can't, people that you can talk to who suffer from that problem, always start problem first and just go from there. I think, you know, there isn't really a toolkit as to where to start, other than really diving into it. Because along the journey, that's where you actually learn. If you spend all the time planning, everything that you plan is based on assumptions, because you haven't tested anything. It's the same thing as, say, for example, you have like a lab experiment. If you spend all the time planning, you have a great research document, but the research documents going to be black until you do the experiment. That's when you see the results. And you learn from those results. Yes, so the biggest thing is being able to identify a problem, and really understanding you know, what's actually complex about this problem that I haven't thought about before? Who can I talk to who suffers from this problem? Is that a painkiller? Or oxygen? Or vitamin? Yeah, really starting there? Podcast Host 32:11 When you look at some of the world's problems, they can be pretty overwhelming. Would you recommend students look at working on more niche problems they can help solve? Or perhaps problems on a smaller scale? Nathaniel 32:22 Yeah, definitely. That's where they should start. And obviously, from there, it's just a process of brainstorming ideas and what you do, like you can literally, you know, okay, so I care about the environment a lot, I can think about how can we reduce plastic waste, so something very specific, but even then plastic waste is really big. So what's the tangible activity or thing that my business can do? What's the key activity that we can do, or we can earn money from, maybe we collect plastic bags, and we bring them to a recycling center, and they pay us like a seven donation to continue our work. And so it's starting from that problem, brainstorming a whole ton of ideas of what you can do, and testing each one of these ideas until you find something that Podcast Host 33:05 works. I love that last bit there. Because I think so many people get attached to an idea, right? The first idea, or the one that they love the most, or the one that they think will work best, right? And then like they I feel like some people get so attached to that idea that they're either a scared for it to fail, and so don't do much with it. Or be don't consider any other possibilities. And say, like, this is the thing, this is my golden ticket to success, right? No, but I love that idea that it's about creating a whole list, you know, brainstorm, 20 minutes, write as many things as you can all those kinds of ideas, right? There's little activities you can do. And then kind of testing one by one, you know, how will it work? Is it a vitamin? Is it a painkiller? Or is it oxygen? And then kind of going through that process of? Will it be able, you know, will I be able to monetize? You know, will I be able to monetize it? Is that my goal? In any case, you know, is it going to achieve the things that I want it to achieve? Essentially? Nathaniel 34:05 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like, the first thing I started was a smart to set pack, which is equipped with light sensors and reminders for chronic illness patients. So with remaining chronic illness patients when to take the medication. And when the time was right, the pills would all fall into the center compartment, you'd open it up. And once you've opened it, the sensors would send reminders and notifications to your local GP, and your family and things like that. So they know that you took your minutes. And what I found was no, I tested this idea build prototypes did mdps. And what I found was I just didn't have the interest or expertise to continue doing it. But if I never took the leap, and if I never tried out this idea, I would never have you learned anything. And so I decided to close that idea and start a new one. I started meals and deals which was a start up in food and financial literacy. And I started future minds and so you This whole journey jumping from idea to idea was really exploring everything that we talked about before. It's totally okay to test different ideas. And if they don't work, it's okay to move on to another one. Podcast Host 35:11 I'm sure there's a students who think that once they kind of brand themselves as, say, for instance, the pill reminder guy, that it must be a bit of a pride swallowing activity to then give it up. And for people to be like, Hey, what happened to that medication idea that you were so passionate about? Not too long ago, what happened to that did you have to do with any of that, to me, Nathaniel 35:34 it wasn't a big deal. I was just like, you know, I didn't end up doing the idea. And that's fine. I just moved on. I can understand where it's almost like a reputation thing where it becomes your nickname, or it becomes a thing that people refer you to believe everything, like, even when you move high school to university, your nickname is change your identity and who you are, aren't defined by what you do. But what you consistently put out in the world, and so sre, you might be the pillar minor guy who didn't end up doing that, the setback and didn't end up mass marketing and making a billion dollar idea. But you're also that guy who learned from your mistakes, and had a valuable learning experience, which projected you even further into entrepreneurship. So I'm a strong believer, and you know, obviously, like, the the age old rejection is just redirection. But more than that, we as human beings are constantly evolving. And failure is inevitable. Like, if you're not failing, it means you're not trying at all, you're not even getting a shot. But if you are failing, that means you have that opportunity to succeed or fail, you're gonna fail either way. So my swag out of a bag? Podcast Host 36:45 Absolutely. I think that's very valuable advice, to just go back to that original mindset shift was there actually, that moment where you were like, hang on, I'm thinking about this completely the wrong way. It's not about me trying to solve the world's problems. It's just about me starting, was there any particular catalyst for that, Nathaniel 37:03 to me, it was realizing my place in the world, and where I fit into everything, and I'm sure you would have picked up from my talk and sort of how, you know, we've known each other for a while, and how much I think about the world and get it into that. And realizing that the world is not all about me. But the world is also not not all about me as well. And so there are like, in everything that I say, and everything that I do, everything is a double edged sword, and being really aware of the world around me and how I fit into that was a really big part of my journey. Because something with me is like, I have like a classic growth mindset, where everything I hear I almost absorb like a sponge. And then I process that information. So being aware that I know nothing at all. And I'm constantly on a learning journey really helped me to develop the perspectives I have today, and be really solid and what I believe in. Podcast Host 38:02 Yeah, no, that's, and that does take time, you know, when you're 1516 years old. Those are some pretty big topics that you're wrestling with, right? Yeah. Nathaniel 38:10 And there's no rush to success, right? You have the rest of your life to ponder about these topics, by any means. I don't think I want anyone else to go along my journey as well, because it was one filled with a lot of sadness, and one that was really challenging. But, you know, being aware that there is options to create the change that you want to see in the world, and to be able to create cool things without consequences of losing millions of dollars. It's really important. Like a lot of people think about startups and like, I don't want to start because I don't want to lose like 100 k in money to invest in my startup. Yeah, when people start, most people put in $0, if anything, they might get $10 out of it. So it's totally okay to use these as learning experiences to just do things that you care about and do things that you love. Podcast Host 38:57 Yeah, a very good message for our listeners, one of their guests, their perennial questions for any young entrepreneurs is what is the value of university, when you are wanting to start businesses, Nathaniel 39:08 universities have their value in the sense that they create a really good environment and community, for innovation and for creativity. A lot of the people that you meet in University are invaluable connections that you'll have for life. No, I go to Monash University and really blessed to have a really good curriculum around them trying to embrace innovation for the future. And so I've actually lectured at Monash college and developed some entrepreneurial content. And so it's good that they have this forward thinking but definitely, like all educational institutions, there's a lot of lacks. Yeah, a lot of the time like in degrees, we aren't being taught the skills that we need. And so it's really important that we as young people continue to explore these journeys. And don't just take University as the be all and end all in a sense university should be your supplement. And self learning should be your main source of learning. So you should be like able to be exploring all these different topics and learning new things all the time. And university degree, that should just supplement everything that you already know. So I definitely think like there's a lot of work to be done in this space. But yeah, it's it's, it's still very important in terms of being able to create that sense of community of people who can support you in the future, but also having a really good time. Like, there's no rush to become like a millionaire overnight. The good points is the community and the sense of knowledge that you can have the bad points is almost like you go through a system for four years, but what do you actually get out of that? How are you pushing yourself to use uni as a supplement, rather than your main source of learning? Podcast Host 40:48 Yeah, I think it's a not just a good way to live by when you're at uni, but definitely when you're at school, too. And speaking of self learning, and entrepreneurship at school, did you have any issues with your parents, when you started spending more and more time on your business ideas, rather than say, studying for the next exam? Nathaniel 41:04 Definitely. And coming from like a Malaysian Chinese background as well, like heavy like Asian parents, the expectation is, you know, get good grades, do really well get a good job, start a family have house, etc. I've always been a bit of a rebellious kid. To me, entrepreneurship, like I mentioned before, was this canvas where I could create the change that I wanted to see in the world. And so despite being told to like, consistently focus on my studies, I couldn't keep my brain away from it. And so if I couldn't take my studies off, which I didn't want to at the time, I might as well just do both, and see how I cope with it. And I think the the understanding there for me, as well as not putting an expectation on myself to change the world overnight, or start the best business overnight, but still be able to pursue my passion. While I still study. Some people that works for some people, does it some people have to drop out of school, and start their own business and do that full time? But if that works for them, that's great. If it doesn't for others, that's also great. I think it's a process of knowing what's most important to you, and giving yourself that opportunity to try. So if that means that you have to take off a year, like a lot of people actually do this, like take a gap year. Yeah, before university to explore what you want to do, then so be it. There's no like blueprint to success or blueprints, having a good life, but following what you think is best and giving yourself room to try and fail. The other thing that I hear a lot is, I don't know what I'm passionate about. And often people ask me, How do I find my passion? My answer is, try things. Yeah. Are you meant to know what you're passionate about? If you haven't tried anything new, be really bad at something, try surfing and keep falling off the board. If you love it, keep surfing and get the hang of it. Try Water Polo, play an instrument, start a business. Start your own Etsy store and make your own clothing or jewelry. Yeah, like there's an LS word for that to you to really explore, you know, right now information is at our fingertips. So if you look at AI, and you're like, Wow, that sounds really cool. I want to have a look into that. Google it, learn more about it. And maybe along the journey, you might end up building a startup that involves AI, you never know where that might take you. So if you want to find your passion, and you want to explore these things, just try a bunch of different things and see what you like. Podcast Host 43:27 Yeah, I completely agree that there's a lot of kids who do have that I can find my passion. passionate about. And yeah, I I usually say to kids, what frustrates you, when you see something on the news, or you read about something or you see something happening in your local neighborhood? And you're like, Oh, I have a visceral kind of emotional reaction to it. What is it? Nathaniel 43:48 It's like, you can create something, join something, learn something. And a lot of times, not knowing what you want to do is great. It means that you're not stuck in one pigeonhole. Like, if you're really set on, like you love playing the guitar, chances are you spend all the time playing the guitar and you never explore another instrument. So if you don't know what you're doing, or you don't know what you like, that's great. It means you have an endless amount of opportunity to find and see what are the things that really excite you? What are the things that frustrate you? What are the things that evoke these emotions? Podcast Host 44:19 Yeah, I love that I that concept is something that I talked to students about as well. They're like, I don't know what I want to do in the future. I'm like, great. All the doors open, right? Like, you know, at the end Nathaniel 44:28 of the day, like a thing that I say a lot is age is just a label. Yeah, at the end of the day, we're all curious humans. We all want to explore things, learn things. It's it's human nature to want to learn new things and be curious and ask questions. So if anything excites you, like go ahead and do it, and a lot of the times, there is no right or wrong answer. No one says there's a meaning to life or a set purpose for each individual. It's up to you to explore what that looks like. Podcast Host 44:55 Well, is there any other advice you would give for our lovely listeners from all around the world and keeping Your mind most of them are high school. Some of them are Crimson stuff. I'm sure if you heard this episode, some of them are going to be teachers and educators. But yeah, what advice would you give to our listeners no matter what age or walk of life Nathaniel 45:12 they're from. The advice I would give is, failure is just another word in the dictionary. And it's up to you to define what it means. Podcast Host 45:21 Yeah, short and short and sweet to marijuana. If you walk away with anything from this episode, it's a really good one to walk away with. Yeah, I think that's a really good message. If students want to contact you, what would be the best way? Nathaniel 45:34 Yeah, contact us on Facebook, Instagram, it's just future minds network. Or on LinkedIn, you can google us website, whatever is easier for you. We're running events in high schools all across Australia, all throughout this year next year. So excited to see where the rest of it leaves. Podcast Host 45:52 Thank you so much for joining us on the top of the class podcast, and we can't wait to see what you do next. Nathaniel 45:57 And thanks for having me.

Ep #26 Making Change Through Advocacy, Action and Insects With Astro Adara

🗓 JAN 13, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with Adara Hagman. Adara, is a 17 year old from Canada who has partnered with organizations like IBM to tackle the Sustainable Development Goals, and who is working on projects as diverse as insect burgers to 3D modeling. We chat about the need for both advocacy and action, for tips for networking with organizations, and why you don't need to know everything to make a difference. Hi, Adara, welcome to the top of the class podcast, it's fantastic to have you on Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Adara 00:52 That's for sure. I'm excited to be here. So hi, everyone, I'm currently 17. And for me, my whole kind of passion lies around sustainability and exploration. And those are two really big areas for me. And what ties it together is this idea of closed loop systems. And that's basically us being able to reuse materials in a circular loop, which is really exciting for me in terms of us being able to slow global warming, making sustainable cities and also us being able to go to space, for example. And if we want to live on Mars, then we need to be able to happy systems. We want to terraform it and live there and like our future food and energy and everything. That's really exciting to me. Podcast Host 01:29 Awesome. So there's a lot of different things that we can talk about. But one thing that I want to start off with is your move from activism to then now I guess, being the action maker, can you talk about that balancing act between the activist side of things, what would be the other title and action maker a change maker 01:49 I like change maker but would like to even say like, I think even advocacy is a great form of Changemaking, as well. So I can definitely talk about that. And kind of like how I framed it in my life and think about it now. But maybe even this chapter can be like innovator in a sense, just because I'm going with more of like a technology problem solving perspective. So I'm really passionate about environment and women's rights, I'm going to talk about those issues and work on campaigns and things like that. And, you know, that's all I knew how to do. So that's what I started with, because that's all I knew about and I was exposed to. And I wasn't sure if I was making a lot of impact, and in doing so, but it felt like at least I was able to do something and I'm grateful I got to start there. But I almost felt like I wanted to do more like it did feel super tangible. And I wasn't sure if I, I was like too young to do anything. And then from there, I just had a bunch of kind of like serendipitous events happen, I guess, probably because I knew where my interest lied. And I think when you kind of know what you're interested in, you're seeking for things that kind of just pop up sometimes, which is kind of cool. From like working with charities, specifically, I was in their first ever social entrepreneurship program. And that led me to find tks, railing about technologies. And I was already really interested in programming in school, I thought it was really cool. And robotics specifically. But I didn't know anything about all these crazy technologies like genetic engineering and artificial intelligence and stuff. And when I heard about them and tickets, I was so excited that these could be tools. And I felt like I could do more by doing more actionable things. And I want to emphasize that I think it's so important to have that because the piece too is we're not talking about it. That's kind of the first step. But then from there, I feel like if you have advocacy, but no action, then it's just all talk but you still need that part before people are still talking about the problem. So then you need that second step after. And I felt like I could make more impact from actually being able to do that, which is kind of what ended up happening learning about technologies than just advocating for Sue found, like the advocacy and like the policy space more specifically. So for example, one of the conferences I went in before it was called the women's forum. And they work on the g7 mandate and a lot of like more woman related policies towards a bunch of these, like global conversations. But I found like from doing things like that, I was also in the Ministry of Education Council in Ontario, which is the province I live in, in Canada. And we got to make proposals and recommendations and all these things. But I found policy was so slow moving, there was um, United Nations youth general assembly was called the younger this year. And then we came up with this whole community of like, all these different problems that youth are really passionate about from the delegates across the world. But I still find that's really great. So we can get like, you know, our voices and opinions, or maybe some action can come from that. I just find it again, it's like a really slow moving area. But I think it's also so important that we have all these different aspects of change. So if your thing is advocacy, or if it's even like art or technology, and I think you know, you should really stick with the area that you like, and see how you can make change in that area. But for me, I think I can create more change within like the problem solving space. And that's something I already really love to do. Podcast Host 04:37 Well, you got a lot of things going on. I didn't know you were part of the UN youth general assembly, is that's what it was called? 04:42 Yeah, so that happened this year. I think it was the 75th anniversary, I believe the whole General Assembly. And this cool thing came up this year called the young gun, which stands for the youth General Assembly, it was led by this organization called bridging the gap and they got delegates from different countries around the world to join this Kind of like delegate union where we all had to talk about these problems, right, a mandate. We had some like meetings and things like that, too. We all joined working groups on specific problems. So there was one on like, health, there was one in education, I was in the climate action working group. And we had to talk about those problems, our perspectives, what we would see as like recommendations for that. Podcast Host 05:18 Yeah, that must have been a pretty exciting thing. How did you get into that? 05:21 For that one, specifically, again, I find a lot of things like come from I think I like having a network in certain places. And then like, also like knowing what you're interested in for me, again, like climate. And actually last year, so this specific thing, my friend, she invited me to this thing called bridging the gap forum. And it was the first ever one it was in my province, I don't think there was not many youth there, maybe like five actually. But those of us who were able to go got to go to this forum. There's much of cool people there too, like, Frankie grinder that's underground, his brother, and all these celebrities and stuff. And it was a whole forum talking about un related problems and the StG goals specifically, so it was the first one that they held here. And then we got to delegate for that. And then just from like, staying in touch the organization, I found out about the delicacy that they were going to do this year in partnership with the UN for the US General Assembly. And I was like, I need to apply for this. And I do that, and they got two delegates, that was awesome. Podcast Host 06:17 Great, and knowing when to apply, and knowing what to say, and that application of two very vital ingredients to make sure that you actually get into these fantastic opportunities. So was the application like for that the UN General Assembly, 06:30 this was essentially like a type form or like a Google form, depending on what you know, essentially, a bunch of questions about like, you know, why are you interested in being a delegate? And I think just really key to any application for a lot of these, like different opportunities, you got to be yourself, don't try to like tell them something that they might want to hear tell them like why why are you genuinely want to advocate for say, you want to do the health pillar specifically. And then like, you know, when you list everything, just like really authentic answers, and then from there to a lot of it didn't getting like any unique opportunity might also be like network. So if you can try to start building that now too, which is a whole like thing in itself to try to work on. But I'm seeking opportunities in areas that are of interest to you, via, you know, reaching out to people or, or seeing like, what events are out there right now that you could get involved with, or like specific organizations for the area that you're interested in. And then from there, a lot of opportunities could stem just from getting involved with one specific thing, which is kind of like for me, I got involved with a charity, which was all about social impact, and youth. And then from there, a lot of things just stem from it. So I think it's sometimes finding like your starting place, and a lot of things stem from seeking the things that you're interested in, Podcast Host 07:34 kind of like getting involved in one organization, and then keeping your eyes and ears open for other people in the organization that are talking about other things. And like, I know, LinkedIn, you're very active on that platform as well. That's where we connected on LinkedIn. And I think sometimes the social media algorithms like on LinkedIn and Twitter can be very helpful too. Because once you start adding a few people who are involved in these kind of organizations, then it just more and more people get suggested to you they're like, oh, maybe you should connect with this person and this person, is that similar to what your experience has been? 08:05 Yeah, I totally agree. It just starts from like, looking for a couple to be honest. And it stems from there. It's about like you knowing what you're interested in trying to secret. Like, for example, I like Twitter a lot. say like, you're interested in climate, you could even if you don't know where to start, you could Google some people who are digging climate, find their Twitter's, see, who do they follow, and it will ask many people to, or as a tweet, you might like find more threads. If they had this person, let me check it out. Maybe they're doing something cool. Maybe you want to follow them. It's kind of comes up organically. You can also do things like Google, what's a good slack group for climate, for example, there's a great one called work on climate, which I just learned recently. And I learned about that one. And I was like, This is such a great community, great things like that, where if you look what's a slack group or a community online that I can join for this specific thing. And you can again, from there, start reaching out to people in the slack group or this community and see where you can start your involvement? Podcast Host 08:53 Yeah, absolutely. I think we can definitely link a few of those things in the show notes. So watch out for that. But I completely agree on the Twitter side of things. I've been following heaps of really amazing students from all around the world. And so I've got about 200 students on there now. So if you want to try and get a shortlist of amazing kids to follow, then that's a good place to start. Just go and click on the top of the class podcast follow list. And you'll see a pretty good run. But yeah, I totally did what you just suggested and went to some, like people like Greta Thornburg and stuff, and I was like, I wonder who she follows, and then followed a couple more of those students. And then it kind of filters down, which is really cool. And from the networking piece, I think slack is something that I have been very surprised in and how quickly that's growing in that slack community group that you're in the environmental one. Are there many students or is it mainly like professionals? Like what do you tend to see from slack community groups? 09:42 I didn't even know about slack until the RFC, I was exposed to it in some sort of sense. If you don't know what slack is, I mean, you could definitely just check it out online, but it's kind of like what I would say to you like Discord. If you know what discord is for like gaming and talking to your friends. It's the same concept. Just normally for more of a work perspective. You have the workspaces. You can dm people And channels, right. And we also used it at younger this year. So we were able to connect with delegates from across the world, you can shoot each other DMS and stuff. But I think it's a really great way to connect with people. I often don't find though, unless you're in a specific like youth community, at least like it's a working climate. And I'm like this future if we wouldn't call it thought for future, I don't see a lot of youth in there. I think the reason is, it's not that you can't have youth in them. It's just I don't think they know about it to be honest. And you know, if that's what you're interested in enjoying it don't. I know, it might be a little bit like even intimidating that you might be the first youth in this slack workspace, but you know that that's okay, you can start being nice people. And oftentimes, they're open to talk to you, which is really great. And also, if there isn't a slack workspace that you want, you can also start one, you can be an activator for the things that you want to do too. So you could be like, I'm going to create my own workspace, reach out to people, starting my community, see if people can share this around for youth working on the future of health. For example, if that's not something and you want to create that community, you can also start it, which is a great thing, you just have to think about what path you want to follow. Podcast Host 11:02 I think that's a good tip for students to get outside of the school bubble. I know sometimes, how do you see yourself? How do you describe yourself to other students? Or how do you introduce yourself to other people? Do you lead with the fact that you're a student? Or do you lead with the fact that you're founder of a few organizations? Do you lead with the fact that you're an activist or an innovator? Like how in your mind, do you present yourself to the world? 11:28 No, honestly, it just depends on like, when I'm talking to people, I actually don't typically like lead off with like the founding a specific thing that just kind of comes up if we're talking about a topic that someone's interested in. But for me, the titles that I normally say when I am trying to kind of like encapsulate the type of person I am my interests, I usually go with futurist because I love thinking about the future. And how can we create a better future specifically sustainably. I always say Explorer, I love exploring things, especially like learning but also nature. Like I love exploring nature, I would love to go to space Monday, that's always been a really big aspiration. And I say activist a lot too. For a while actually. Like I think as you're like you're growing up, like you kind of like are figuring out like how do you like frame yourself and all these things, and it keeps changing, which is totally okay. She for me. I think I stopped saying activist for a couple years because I was like, Okay, now I'm in this innovator space more, I'm gonna leave that activism behind. And I kind of forgot about it until the past, like, two years when I was like, why can't I do a bit of both, because it's still important to have that advocacy part. And it was a big part of my journey. So I've been trying to get back into policy a bit more to because it does go hand in hand with making even technology accessible sometimes. And I forgot about that for a while. So I do say that because it's been a big part of my journey. And now I'm trying to get back into it with younger recently, and other related things. And I also say designer a lot now, because I found that's a really good way to kind of like describe the kind of person I am. I like designing systems and thinking about how we can solve problems. And I've always been really interested in art too, and creative kind of things. And that's what led me to wanting to be able to like work on tangibly solving these problems, because they're the kind of like challenges, but I really like solving challenges. So that's been something that made them so interesting to me, I think. Podcast Host 13:06 Yeah, well, on your website, it said that you are an explorer at Hot scientists and training part time researcher and aspiring astronauts. I love that because it definitely is so far removed from the typical mindset. I think, well, maybe I'm wrong here. And please correct me if I'm wrong, of what a student mindset typically is, like, I feel like a student mindset is very one directional in that you receive information and you then regurgitating it on an exam at some point in time. Usually, that's the kind of student mindset. And I love that in that sentence that you have on your website, it doesn't really mention the fact that you're a student, which I think is really interesting. How important do you feel it is for current students who are in year 910 1112, whatever might be high school to give these other titles a go? 13:59 Yeah, um, I mean, I'm still a student as well, I don't put that in my thing, because I think that's just something I am. And then I'm just kind of like talking about, like, the things that describe me personally, right. And I think the cool like part of that is, as you are like adopting maybe these titles, for example, the benefits that could come out of it, at least what I have found personally, is that it kind of like helps me understand who I am better and be able to explain it to people, like I know, like, personally, I know like labels aren't maybe like the best thing and you feel like really like kind of stuck in them. But if you can start to find some of the things that do really resonate with you, it helps you better understand yourself. And the goals you have what you kind of like want to move towards. And then when you're explaining to others, it's the kind of like the best way that you can maybe like encapsulate to that to someone else that could be like I'm an explorer, and maybe someone knows what an explorer is, and that we can go into that a little bit more. But it really helps I think and then set understanding yourself and communicating that to others in an effective way. So you can find people who will align with your mission and work with them and stuff. So as like you're figuring out your pathway. I think if you can find some of those things that really resonate with you then then start saying those two If you also want to say I'm a student totally embraced that you're a student too as well. I noticed Yeah, I don't normally say that. I'm not sure why, but I don't know, I feel like maybe it's just a given to some extent that I'm a student, or like, it comes up where people like, how old are you? And I'm like, I'm 17. In high school, right? So I'm a student, but here's like, some of the things that make me me, Podcast Host 15:18 right. 100%, it's interesting to kind of think that, you know, sometimes student is that kind of old school mindset of receiving information and then going into an exam. But it can be an exciting thing as well, to be a student, you could be a student of space, you could be a student of exploration, you could be kind of more than just sitting in a classroom, like, Don't limit yourself, I think it's really having that mindset, though, that you are more than just someone sitting in a classroom, trying to get a high school, and that kind of can really help develop who you are. And I think it makes you a more interesting person. When you say, Look, I've got passions and interests, and I've got these things that I'm learning about outside of school as well. 16:00 Yeah, I think being like a student is like a great thing, too. I think, I love this idea of being a lifelong learner, especially like, as moving forward right now, things are changing a lot. It's a really exciting time of like, all these new innovations and problems, we also have to solve which, which are hard, but it brings about all these things, and it's gonna be a lot of change. So we kind of have to be lifelong learners, which is such an important thing. And I think it's kind of about the way that you think about it, and frame it. Right. So I mean, student can like often be associated with again, like the kind of typical school thing of like, we keep regurgitating information. And like we do all these different things, right. But it could also be like, like you said, I'm a student of space, you're a student of XYZ. And even if you don't know what your thing is yet to, and maybe your focus really is you're super excited about the things you're learning in school, to be a student. And then you could like even like, explain to people, if you're trying to kind of like, talk about the things you're interested in that you're like a really big biology enthusiast. And here's why, like, you can go beyond like the classroom too. So it could start from there, like in biology class, and you're loving it. And this is your thing, you could be like, I'm a biology enthusiast, and then take on the things that you're doing in class, and ask a lot of questions. Don't just go from like that, I need to memorize this and regurgitate that also be like, I'm gonna start asking questions and diving deeper into this, because I'm interested in it. What can I do with biology, that's super interesting, and start doing your own research at home, it doesn't just need to be the things that are assigned, necessarily. And that's kind of where you can find passions. And if anything, sends interest from there specifically to Podcast Host 17:21 Yeah, I think a lot of students don't do that. Because, I mean, a lot of students do, which is great, but I think a lot of students sometimes don't, because they're like, let's just focus on the exam, I was good a good score in the exam. Like, if I want to learn different stuff, a lot of students will ask themselves first, but will it be on the exam, you know, like? So I guess for you? How do you justify learning above and beyond what you get taught at school? Is there something in the back of your mind that says, I'm learning this stuff, even though it's not going to be in the exam? Am I potentially costing myself a better score? 17:55 Yeah, I know, it's so easy to fall into, like thinking that way. Because we're trained to think that way. That's just kind of how school is we're trained to do that. So you don't know like other ways to frame it necessarily. Now, for me, like it took a while I had to unlearn a lot of things. I think it started a lot like to teach us specifically, like, I love learning, and I love learning in school, but I found like, you know, oftentimes, like, our curriculum is outdated. And all these different things about school, it didn't make sense to me. But we're taught to really care about our grades and like, do things sometimes just for a university application, which probably isn't the best motivator to do something. But we're like, trying to like check all these boxes to make sure that we get into this school by having the perfect life thing just for that purpose, specifically, but I think we have to, again, like think about the bigger picture. And it takes time to like, learn this. And I think I'm going to like a privileged position because I have parents that had been quite supportive of me like wanting to follow kind of, like, quote, unquote, unconventional pathway, and, and not being too hard on me with my grades and stuff. But like, personally, I was quite hard on myself still, because I'd be like, I want to get as like the best marks I can and like, make sure that I'm still checking those boxes. But then I was also trying to do like this new technology stuff starting and everything. And I had to learn that, you know, you can't do both necessarily, and like, well, you can, but you can't like do like everything. So I was trying to do like every club in school, and like crush like grades. And I wanted to do like the whole technology thing and stuff. And I had to figure out what was like, the most important. I left like a lot of extracurriculars and stuff because I was like, I think I'm learning more from doing this technology, extracurricular. I don't need to do everything. I think oftentimes, I've heard universities don't care about you, being well rounded, they want a well rounded class. So if there's something that is like your thing, and that you're really interested in, you spend your time, like say doing technology and like going really, really deep. Yeah. And that's really exciting because you're that kid and then they can have that athletic and they can have their world round of a bunch of people who are pursuing the things that they're interested in and it doesn't need to be one area. It's totally okay to not know what you want to do. But I think it's interesting when when you start like working on your own thing and things and stuff like that, too. It doesn't need to be checking all these specific boxes. In school, I didn't know it was like that way. But that's because we're trying to think that way. So I had to learn that it's okay not to do that. And know that grades aren't always the most important thing. But it's still I would say very important to like, get good grades and stuff. But you don't need to be able to have to do everything and be so hard on yourself sometimes, because you should be working on the things that you're passionate about. I think that translates the best into like, I think you succeeding because I found like, this, like really big trend where like, if you're doing like the thing that you really care about, I think it's oftentimes, like better work Podcast Host 20:31 at work. 20:32 Yeah. So they're really passionate about some things like Frank Gehry is really passionate architecture, he does amazing architecture. And like, it's really exciting and stuff. So if like, there's something that you really like it, you go into that area, you're spending a lot of time besides like doing your grades and stuff, like this is the thing that you spend your time outside of school doing as like your hobby extracurricular not having to do like, five, because you feel like you need to, I think you put a lot more effort and thought into that, and it will take you farther. I don't know, that's the correlation. I found maybe it's not true. But um, I think if you do the thing that you're passionate about, it can take you places. Podcast Host 21:03 Yeah, well, I certainly agree that finding your passion can be can really open up many, many doors. But I know a lot of students will say, Well, how do you find your passion? Now, one thing that I can tell from you is that you are, I guess what many people would say is well read. So you've gone above and beyond school, and you are absorbing information from a lot of different sources. And I think that's helped you find your passion. But you know, for students out there who are kind of thinking, Well, you know, I don't really know what my passion is yet. What advice would you give them? 21:37 Definitely, yeah, I feel lucky that I, I've found things that resonate with what, but I don't think it's like finding your passion. I think a lot of it, we say that. But I think the way I think about it is is like you're developing it too. And a lot of it comes from being curious. And you have to let yourself be curious. And I think that's one of the things we lose a lot as we go through school. And we're trained to, like think a certain way, we use a lot of the Curiosity we have when we're young. And we want to like ask all these questions about how everything works. And that's what we do, like when we're in kindergarten, right? And then we lose a lot of that. But I think if you kind of like, let yourself be curious. And if you're having a hard time, like set up forcing functions for yourself to do that. So like, I mean, like 10 minutes, or even like 15 minutes a day, I'm just going to spend some time looking into something that I'm just curious about. And like by doing that, it will build a habit. And then you'll just start to seek those things more often and ask more questions about things. But by exploring more things, you can find, like what does resonate with you, but you can also develop that passion, I think, and probably like the reason like I like certain areas is like for me, I think I love the environment, because I grew up loving animals, right. And I loved exploring nature. And I spent a lot of time in nature. And because of that, I think that translates into me being really frustrated when I found out that climate change was a thing. And all these things were happening to ecosystems, animals that I cared about, I got really upset about it. And I was like, I need to do something because I don't want that to happen. So I think you develop a passion based off of the things you're exposed to. And if you're not exposed to something, then you might not even know that exists. And that's the thing that you could be really excited about. So it's all about like, gaining exposure to more things. And you can do that by being curious. And asking questions. And also trying things experiences help you a lot with that, too. So you can exceed as many experiences as you can to try things that you might not have, or that are of interest to you, and you just like keep putting off. And I think it starts with even again, like that 10 minutes a day. I mean, I'll let myself look for something I'm curious about. And that's building the habit from like us, kind of like untrain our curiosity as we go through school a little bit more. Podcast Host 23:30 I think a lot of students put this pressure on themselves to quote unquote, find their passion. But they shouldn't be starting with what they're passionate about. If they don't have any passions, that's fine. That's Yeah, totally, totally understandable. Start off with what you're curious about, start off with a an interest explored further, see if it makes sense to you see, if you want to explore it even more. And then like, in six months or years time that can then become a passion. But I want to go into what TK is brought to you as well, because it sounded like you know, your journey from advocacy to action was in large part kind of catalyzed by your exposure of tks to a lot of different ideas and concepts and this kind of stuff. How was that not an intimidating experience for you like when you're 15 or however old? You were not very, not very old. I mean, in your mid teens say? And you're looking at these topics, I think most students would be forgiven for thinking that sounds like a university topic, if not further down the track even so how do you kind of say, yeah, I'm excited about all these cool things. 24:34 It's daunting in many ways when you think about it, for me, like I was, I think it was just because I was more excited about it at first and then then like nervous about how scary it was. I was just excited that I would have the ability to even learn about them in the first place. So for me, and honestly, I was worried I won't even get in. I was like, this is like this sounds crazy. But think about artificial intelligence. I remember I met the first cohort of kids at an event spontaneously and that's kind of like one of my first exposures to them. They're telling me they have LinkedIn profiles and all these things. And I didn't know what that meant. But it sounded really cool. But it also sounded really scary to be honest as well, you're right. But I was also just so overwhelmed with excitement, because to me, that was something I was interested in. I was like, you know, I want to make an impact. I knew that. And this sounded like kind of the pathway to do so. So I just wanted to figure out how I could get in or get involved in any way that I could. And then I applied it, and I did get it, which was so exciting. I was really excited. And I think that's what daddy need not be so scared about it. But yeah, they are really daunting topics. I know some people are just, like, probably more scared than maybe I was coming into it. But for me, I think a lot of it was the way they framed it, like teaching us all these skills and also chasing us like how do you learn on your own the skill of learning how to learn what you think you learned in school, but we don't technically we learn how to you regurgitate. What we should learn is how do you learn because if you know how to learn, you can figure out anything on your own, I could spend my time at home, diving deep into a brand new topic because I know skills on how I can start seeking this information and things like that. And that made me feel like it wasn't as daunting. And I think it's because the way that they phrase things and the way that they broke things down like digestive Lee to us. Podcast Host 26:11 Yeah, I think that's such an important thing. Actually, I was commenting on a, there was a Harvard program recently started by some students at Harvard, it was like students kind of making the future of school. And I said, one thing that schools should be doing is rewarding students for self learning, they should be kind of instead of saying you just have to stick to the curriculum, and then perform the exam, there should be something or students have the ability to learn something on their own presented, just different students teach different students if that's what they want to do, and then get graded on that potentially, like graded on how they put a curriculum or a topic together. Because I feel like self learning is going to be such a feature of the future of work, like you can't just learn one degree and then be fine for the next 20 years. Like you're going to need to constantly upskill but you've you've obviously gone from the advocacy to action. And I know you're still doing the advocacy part, which as you said is very, very important. But I'd love to talk a little bit about the action side of things and your organization's. So how many different things have you started? And what are they about? 27:11 I don't even know how many spin offs but I will tell you some of the key things because a lot of us iteration. And that's like a big theme I want to have, as I talked about this, too, you know, wrong, we're figuring things out, it's okay to iterate and figure out what you're passionate about and learn how to frame these things as part of it. Like for me, I'm technically still in my training stages. And I'm moving more into like the building stages of like things will actually start building soon hatchway. But a lot of it like for me is training right now. So just training, research and starting these different things, which is great that I have the opportunity to start young. But for me like some of the things, if you like looked at my website and stuff that are like key organizations, there's this teacher shot factory now, that started last December. And it was kind of a conversation that me and my friends had, where we were both really interested in social impact, specifically, like the policy side, so like SDG goals, the Sustainable Development Goals, and from the UN. And we think they're so awesome. But we have less than nine years now is like 10 years, then to actually hit these metrics. And we didn't see a ton of ton of action, tangibly just more talk about it. And like roadmaps. So we were like, We want to see more of this. So we create a future shot around the idea of moonshots. And then shots are like big ideas, like when went to the moon, for example. And this was all about thinking about these StG goals as these are moonshots for our future. And we only have nine years left to achieve them. So we got to start doing more. So we were hoping our organization would be able to help foster more people to start working on this work on some of our own projects, and the SDG goals, specifically partnering with companies or consulting. So either one of those was kind of the model we're going with and one that we stuck with. And also we want to inspire youth specifically, to feel like they're able to make an impact. And they're not too young, and even, like teach them tools that they can use and things like that. So a lot of it's evolved. And that's like a big theme I find with any project, so it's okay that it will evolve. I was reading some some yc resources recently. And and a big thing I found from those two, from all these, like founders who started these, like awesome startups is this, you don't need to have a great idea at first, it can be a good idea. What matters more is like the problem that you want to solve. really understanding that and being okay with the idea iterating because it will, like so many companies started off as one thing. And now they're like Amazon, right? Like it didn't start off at the same place that it is today. And that's totally okay. feature shot is something we're going to be iterating a lot. We're doing a new launch in January actually just kind of like solidifying more like the stuff we're doing, our new website will be going up and stuff like that. But essentially what we do is again, we partner with companies to work on SDG goals. So some of our partners are UN Women, IBM, and we're working on just main areas. And I think these are going to be like that what focus is we have since we can't work on every single one, but we want to inspire more people to be able to work on some of those other ones. But for us, it's climate action, health, education and equality, specifically gender equality has been what we've been focused on. But that's what future shot was all about. Another big one that came out this year, we do this moonshot company hackathon. You come up with kind of a crazy idea for the future that isn't possible yet, but the technology could work. So my friend nyla, and I, we were really interested in this whole problem with the food industry. Because the food industry, one of the biggest contributors to global warming, a big emphasis right now in the space is cellular agriculture, which is really cool. It's essentially lab grown meat. That's kind of like a solution to that. So definitely look into that, if you're interested. Interesting. Want to see what is another perspective we could take from it. I've been really interested in insect agriculture for a while. So we ended up going with that as like our main focus. Cardboard means carbon neutral carbon carnivores essentially. So you can still have protein from crickets or other insects, but it's more sustainable. We farmed, essentially. And that's what we went with for a while. So we started off like our website and all these different things as part of the hackathon. And we won the, the branding award for that. So the branding around like, you know, the cardboard, everything is really just cool. But we decided we wanted to pursue it more, because it is something that's not too far off. In second culture, people eat insects all around the world. Yes, I'm in different countries, just in North America, specifically, I don't know what it's like in Australia. But people have like this, like taboo thing about it here where it's gross to eat insects, I actually only got I have some very, I have cricket bars and stuff. They're so good. They taste really good, to be honest. So I have so many reasons why we should eat insects, in my opinion, but the whole thing kind of turned into a research project. And now we thought we might scale it into like a little startup where we can make inset projects. But instead, we just decided that we're doing a research project. And we're still working on it. Now. We got a grant from the Government of Canada, which was kind of cool, where we can order some insect products so that we can mess around with like different recipes of like, how can we make bug burgers and things like that? So that's when it's turned into. And we're still working on that now, which is kind of cool. Podcast Host 31:44 So cowboy, and future shot, like your two main things at the moment. So yeah, like I would love to kind of go to explore future shot a little bit more as to why did you formalize the organization as future shot? And what's the importance of having the sustainability development goals as part of your organization's stated purpose? 32:03 No, through the Sustainable Development Goal part, we actually that was kind of like the basis of why we wanted to create it. So that's why it's such a big part of it, we wanted to create it because we didn't see enough action in the StG goals. And we were hoping that we could have like more of a youth led organization that would call for action towards these, but also emphasize the importance of using technology and all these things that we're learning about as tools to do that, as well. And also hand in hand with policy. So these, like different beliefs that we learned about from our journeys. And that seems really important, but we didn't see a lot of, so that's kind of what we wanted to call for. And then from there, like kind of our model of sticking with those StG goals, because that's where it started with and what we wanted to work towards. And also, like, Okay, so we're gonna talk about one point, but depending on moving back a little bit, the Sustainable Development Goals as a whole, like, we thought of them as like moonshots themselves, for humanity, right, the moonshots for a more sustainable future, whether that be in like our health and the quality that we have on our planet, and like the environment aspect to right, even like with the climate change problem, it's the same time essentially, we have like, less than nine years to actually slow global warming aligns really well with the SDGs, before we hit this tipping point, that's really bad. And actually might speed up now, which is a little bit scary, to be honest to me. Yeah. So they were like, really big, like goals that we could kind of move towards as a whole, like our whole planet. So we thought that they're a really good model to just keep sticking with anyways, but just putting more emphasis on the action towards them, and the ways that we can do that. And working with organizations as our model, we thought would be good, because a lot of these big organizations, you know, they talk about it or, or they want to seek ways that they can make an impact as well. But maybe they don't know where to start. So we would reach out to some of them and be like, would you like to work on an SDG related project? Or do you want us to help you learn more about them, things like that. And we got some great responses. And sometimes it starts with just asking and seeing where people need help. And kind of my philosophy towards like reaching out to people and asking, even if you could like partner, or like have a meeting and stuff is what's the downside. And obviously, please be like, polite, please be authentic to it. And all these different things that are really important that I'm hoping they're a little bit more intuitive. But when you're asking if you could have a meeting, or whatever it is you want to do, I think, oftentimes like the way I think about it, people often ask me like how I do it, and don't find it super scary on my friends, you're like, I find it really scary to reach out to people. And I'm like, what's the downside? Because if you don't ask the answer is no. And but if you do ask the answer could still be no, but if you did it, then it would be no, but there could be a yes. If you did ask. So you have more of that probability of there being Yes. Right. So you might as well ask, and IBM could say, No, I don't want to work with you. But they said yes. Which was cool. And if we didn't ask then it would have been no for sure. So let's think about it. And I think it's really awesome that some of them do you want to work on these different problems and support us as well. Podcast Host 34:51 So what happens after you got the yes from IBM, 34:54 we started working on on one of our projects, and it's just kind of like we didn't know how to do a lot of this stuff. First, we were like this, but we want to do, but we don't know how the process will work. And they were like our first formal partnership. I'm so grateful for that. But we were figuring it out. We're like, so to me, should we create proposals should we, like do all these different things, it was kind of just a lot of like a learning experience to this past year. And now like, the past couple of months, we've formalized, like, kind of like our processes towards these things, things you want to carry on and, and we've learned a lot from like, trying it out for the first couple of months. So like having our first meeting, we kind of like, learn the tone of collaborating with them, like, what are they looking for. And then we even like talked about, like, what we're looking for and stuff. And out of that we learned a bunch of structures that could work for us. So like, for example, like something we typically go with as well, we do like a brainstorming like get to know session with the partnership, then we normally end up writing a proposal sending it to them. Sometimes we have another meeting to discuss that and get ideas or they just like it works, because it's something we talked about in that initial meeting, too. And then we do like action plans from there. So how can we actually make it happen and what steps and things we're going to be doing over time, a lot of it was figuring it out. But I think it's really important to train the skill of figuring it out. Because again, that's that, like, lifelong learning piece. Podcast Host 36:06 Absolutely. What I love that idea that you pitch to IBM, they said yes. And you're like, Huh, okay, so what do we do that type of thing, like you're learning about how to interact with these companies. I think that's a really key point that you don't necessarily need to knowing everything about what will happen next. Before you start reaching out, you will learn as you go. And I think a lot of times, you know, my life as well, like, I've stopped myself from doing things. Because I felt like I needed to know everything before I started, where like, you can't know everything before you start, because you will learn as you go. So it's kind of that paralysis by analysis type of thing, right? Where people overthink things, and then don't do anything because they're like, I just don't feel ready yet. Whereas like, he reached out to IBM, and you've been learning along with IBM, as to how to write proposals, and you know, the way that they want to conduct the relationship. Can I just ask how did you set that partnership up initially? Was it like a cold email to the IBM info line? Or, like, were you introduce to someone, how did you get started there, 37:09 a lot of partnerships were different. But for this one, it was having a connection through LinkedIn, and then asking Hey, to our connection, if we could have a meeting with them. And that's how this one started. And a lot of it again, is like having that network starting to build it now. Or like, you know, getting involved in an organization. So you get to know different people. And from there, you know, that can stem to something in the future, as well. And one thing I like to note too, is like, please don't be transactional. I know that can sometimes happen as like you're trading these things, but build these relationships, because you see how important it can be to build relationships, but also value them and what you can learn from out of having relationships as well and see what you can bring to like different teams that you want to work with as well. And I also wanted to add on, I love the point you had about like, you know, like you don't feel ready yet. I think that's like a big theme, especially with like, three is wanting to make action today, you're not never feel ready to do something, in my opinion, I think he's in that when you don't feel ready, sometimes you have to push yourself to do it. That's kind of like the whole like even seeking discomfort thing. I normally use it unless it's like something super risky. But if I don't want to do something like I don't want to speak at this conference, because I am scared like I want to back out of it. And then I'm like, that's a trigger that I should probably do it. Because it will help me a lot. If I tell myself, Oh, I'm really scared, I probably need to do this. So I can start training getting better at this or even like, knowing how to talk on podcast is scary to like, I still get so nervous before, like this, I was like, Oh, I'm nervous. But you have to do like your first couple of like, articles, whatever thing that you're working on in order to feel comfortable with it and start building it and you're never gonna feel ready at first, you just have to push yourself to take that first step. And it's okay to also not do it perfect at first, you're not going to show you know that and also not like, do it all at once the like with that thing I was talking about with curiosity earlier, I think oftentimes, we don't do things because we're like, I don't have four hours to spend like diving into this thing today. So I'm not going to do it. I'll do wait till I have a lot of time one day, but then can be like I do have 10 minutes every day. So why don't you just spend 10 minutes doing it every day like in small chunks. It doesn't need to be I have all the time now. And because I don't mean to push it off. Think about how can I make it possible to start? Podcast Host 39:11 Right? But what would be your advice for students who want to start learning a new skill who perhaps have never really gone above and beyond school to learn something on their own? I mean, you have by the sounds of things started to develop at least and it's an ongoing skill in and of itself, how to learn, right? When you don't necessarily have a teacher they're guiding you. So how do you approach it and what do you look for in resources? And how do you process that new information? 39:37 There's so many different things I get a lot of it will be figuring it out as you do it, which is something you'll also be training but I kind of like as a starting place when it when I'm trying to like understand something. So say I'm trying to learn genetic engineering for the first time. I think I normally go with just googling what is genetic engineering and it's so simple, but you watch a five minute video just hit the LIKE THE really simple like Justin And then from there, if there was like some concepts you didn't understand stuff, write those down and like start looking into those all individually when you have like the different pockets of time to do so. And then from there looking into different research papers and things, again, depends on the subject, but you could start seeing what are some new research papers that are coming up, try Google Scholar for that. And when you read your first research paper is gonna be so scary totally is you're not going to understand what this said, it's probably going to be like reading a different language and be like, What are all these strange words, about machine learning about genetics? What is this gene I don't understand. And like, highlight all the words you understand, because you're not going to understand most of it. But then every time you search one of the words, to try to understand this first paper, you're gonna learn a ton. And then as you keep reading a new paper, it's gonna be easier each time. And that's how you slowly kind of become more in depth with your knowledge in that area. And then it will lead you to do things or you'll find something interesting about one area and you'd be like, I want to learn more about specifically plant genetics, or I want to learn more about this health genetics for this application that will lead you down different trails to keep learning. And you just got to be like resourceful to thinking about where can I find more resources? Can I find some slack groups, but I think just start from the basics, if you can read some research papers, basic articles, just to get the gist of it. And then where you don't understand, try to bridge those knowledge gaps. And that will help what you have all the same resources that Elon Musk does on the internet, pretty much. Right? So there's so much there. I mean, it's hard to filter through all of it. But there's lots of great courses there, too. Like you could look up great machine learning courses. There's some great ones on Udacity for specific things to do self driving cars, or all these different like course platforms, right? Like Coursera and Udemy, Skillshare. Right. So whatever you want to learn, there's probably something out there that could help you. Podcast Host 41:36 I think you know that self learning is a journey that students should really start experiencing now. And then who knows, they might end up becoming an advocate once they learn a certain amount, and then they can start taking action based on their advocacy and continue to 41:49 be an advocate. Like if that's the thing that really drives you, and you're really good at it stick with it, too. But if you love problem solving, why'd you go with that as well? I think we need this like, whole like breadth of different changemakers. So that's really important to remember, too. Podcast Host 42:02 Yes, I can tell that you don't like me saying that actions better than advocacy. 42:07 I know I said it a lot before I've said it, like in the past a lot. And then I learned over time that like, you know, I think you need so many different kinds of changemakers and people to collaborate on things. It's not just one area. And I think advocacy without any action isn't good. That's something I believe to be true. But I think we need advocates. And we need action takers in different fields and stuff. It's not just one focus area. And I think we oftentimes forget that I forgot it a lot before. Podcast Host 42:34 Now you've kind of come full circle. And you're back to focusing on advocacy, or at least making that a part of who you are not just someone who's taking action all the time. But someone who's like sees advocacy as a really vital part of what it is you do. Yeah, final questions for you. adara, what is a failure that you're most proud of? 42:54 And I used to be so scared of doing presentations. And again, it's one of those things where if you don't force yourself to do it, then you obviously won't get better at it. And I think I can do better presentations. So I still can work on it. But my first technical presentation on genetic engineering was, I think it was about a year ago, it wasn't that long ago, which is, which is weird to say. But I've given presentations before that I gave, you know, presentations in school, it's a specific style. But given these technical presentations is a totally different thing than what you're taught to do in school, to have like this, you know, actually professional looking decks and, and like cohesively talk and not be reading from cue cards and things like that, right. And I was really excited to do it. But I was actually so nervous about it. And I went up there and I had all my content prepared really well. And my deck was nice and everything, I put a lot of effort into it. And then I started talking and did my first couple of sentences. I was shaking so much I paused for probably, I think it was like 20 seconds. And I forgot what I was saying. I was like, oh, like I just forgot what I was saying completely. A lot of feedback I got was you lips, so you look so nervous. And like watching that video over again. I was like shaking. I know, like some people's first presentation, it was pretty, pretty solid. But I was anxious. And the biggest piece I got from one of my mentors, he gave me some there was it's not even just sometimes about good content in preparing for the presentation. Some of the preparation is also mindset. And I didn't think about that I was just like, I'm gonna go make myself do it. I'm excited, this will be good. But I was so nervous. I just kept telling myself to ignore that. And he's like, it's so important to also prepare your mindset for all these different things to like, instead of just practicing everything and making the perfect content, take five minutes to figure out how can you get yourself in the zone and tell yourself that you can do this presentation or maybe do a five minute meditation or something. I never thought about that before but it's been a big learning for me. Now I try to always make sure that I am the right mental space to like give a presentation and not like get so nervous about it. Podcast Host 44:50 A great moment to learn from right and Yeah, I think so many of those early stage taking the labor, particularly when you're a student and particularly when you're a teenager is having that mindset declined to give you the confidence to kind of take that leap. And to get up on stage or to do whatever you want to do. So if students wanted to connect with you, what would be the best way to do it Twitter or LinkedIn, 45:10 maybe email me at astronautadara@gmail.com is a good one. But also connect with me on LinkedIn. It's just I don't respond, I think as often I'd like to also check it. And then Twitter, I love using Twitter. It's one of my favorites. But I mean, I think I respond quite quickly on Twitter. But I just don't get a lot of messages there sometimes. So yeah, but I love Twitter so much, definitely connect with me there. Podcast Host 45:34 So you're 17 you're finishing school soon, what happens next? 45:40 I don't know what the future holds. But I think the best way to predict the future is to create it. So thinking about the things that I'd like to do, and trying to go towards those things, and also being okay with it not being exactly that because I know that will change. So for me some of those things, like as a whole, you know, I'm really interested in creating sustainable cities, space on Earth, all those areas are really interesting to me. So, you know, working within those areas, I've been building my breath in different areas of this kind of like sustainability by focused on carbon sequestration on future food for a while, right now, I'm actually learning a lot about the energy space, because I want to understand as many of these areas water, food energy, that go into creating a sustainable system, so they can kind of help me in doing that in the future. And I'm also doing things like 3d modeling and, and learning more design things too. So I can design sustainable cities, which is what I would love to do. Podcast Host 46:30 Well, whatever the future holds, I'm sure that you will approach it with a very full toolkit of amazing skills and experiences and all these different ideas, which I think puts you in a fantastic position to take advantage of any opportunity that comes your way. Right. And yeah, I hope some of our listeners connect with you and follow along with your journey as you go to building future cities or to space or to doing other amazing things, whatever that may be. 46:56 Thank you so much for having me and please feel free to connect whenever. Podcast Host 46:59 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes, for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

Ep #25 Winning a Child Genius Show and Study Tips Worth Remembering!

🗓 JAN 9, 2021

See transcript

Outro 00:49 Hi, Mahesh. Welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Mahesh 00:56 My name is Mahesh. I'm 14 years old and I'm most well known for winning the second season of SBS Australia's Child Genius in 2019. I am from the north of Sri Lanka. That's where my parents are from and they migrated here in 2004 a couple years before I was born. Podcast Host 01:14 Fantastic. and talk to us a little bit about what exactly SBS Australia's Child Genius is like, for those people who haven't seen the competition, we've got listeners from all around the world. Can you explain a little bit for us? Mahesh 01:26 SBS Australia's child genius was essentially it's a show, 16 children are selected from a process that starts at about 1000. And it's basically children go through four days of competition to determine a winner. And there's different rounds in different subjects such as spelling, mathematics. And everyday there's also a memory and recall round, such as after the math round. On day two, we had to memorize a randomly shuffled deck of playing cards, Podcast Host 01:56 Right? But take me back to when you first entered the competition, like what made you want to be a part of this TV show? Mahesh 02:02 Well, my parents and I, we watched the first season in late 2019. And we we found it quite interesting. And we thought of it as a possible opportunity, but then sort of forgot about it. And then we read in the men's magazine, Australian men's magazine that auditions were going to be open. And we had a little chat with my parents. And I was sort of very apprehensive about entering because I thought I wasn't at the requisite level to enter in the show, let alone win. And so I was quite sort of what Yeah, I was really apprehensive about it. And I was not very keen on going. But my dad thought, you know, if he doesn't make it, it's not the end of the world. We'll just give it a shot. And so we we ended up flying out to Sydney for the auditions in March 2019, where there were about 900 people. And then that was eventually through the process of elimination whittled down to 16, who competed in the actual show. Podcast Host 03:02 And so what was the process of elimination? Like, because that's a very fierce competition 900 down to 16. I think you could probably work out the percentages faster than I can. But it's a very, very small amount of students that are actually chosen for the show, how do they get down to that? 16 people. Mahesh 03:18 So it's first like, right here in Melbourne, we did a Skype call with one of the producers who you know, asked me some basic questions just to get an idea of where my strengths are, and a few questions to determine my suitability for competing in terms of actually being on TV, or sort of the psychological side rather than the cognitive side of things. And then once we were told that we had been successful in this way, we're fine out to Sydney based off the written application and the interviews. And then we started taking sort of academic tests to do with, you know, maths, there was a moment there was spelling, and there was a science component. And these were, you know, just like standardized school tests, which were basically again to ascertain our ability and sort of pressurized situation. Then we also had interviews with the psychologists that SPS had hired for the purpose of child genius, and they took detailed notes on how will this student react to being on camera, and we sort of had little practice interviews. So 400 became 150, who are invited to the second day of auditions, which then became 50, then 25 and 16. Podcast Host 04:32 So what was the general bizarre vibe of that kind of place? 900 talented smart students from I'm going to guess all over Australia and not just Sydney, who have all kind of packed in to try and get on this show. was their match kind of chatting to other students on the day trying to gauge who else might be on the final kind of 16 at the end or were you all just kind of you know, sticking with your parents at the day. Mahesh 04:57 That was a big mix of things, you know, like they were some really great people there. Um, and it, it always feels great when you're talking to people who are have, you know, the same interests and same intellect as you because you, you bond quite quickly. And you know, we were we were chatting to each other about, like some of us had watched the last season. And you know, we were chatting about some of the other people on there and how, you know, one question can completely derail your chances sometimes. And so, you know, it was quite interesting. And there was a mix of people, you know, there were people who were 12 at the time, like me, and they were in the same room as little eight year olds, and they sort of just blew your mind, these little eight year olds are so smart and have such a high level. And yeah, it was, it was a really great experience in terms of the social aspect, because you got to meet new people who, especially with some of the older kids of the other 15, whom I competed with, who had phones and things like that. So we were able to communicate after the short and we maintain those links. Oh, that's awesome. Podcast Host 05:58 What strength did you go in to that show with because you said the producers were asking you about what your strengths were? And like, how did you know what your strengths were going in? Mahesh 06:08 On? Well, I knew that I hadn't been aptitude for memorizing things, because I sort of had this really, really weird talent when I was little where, because I would sit in my high chair, and right in front of it was a calendar. So I would be staring at that all the time. And so I was able to, you know, memorize dates and look at patterns. And if someone asked me, What date will June 26 2014 be like, I was able to tell them within 15 seconds. So that was something that unfortunately, I don't possess anymore. But it was sort of something that really sort of defined me as a person, whenever we saw people, my dad will be like, Oh, my son can do this. And so you know, it was it was quite interesting, because people liked it. Podcast Host 06:54 Certainly an impressive trick. And like, I struggled to figure out five days ahead of me, we know what date it will be. And that kind of thing, if you can figure out what it's going to be four years from now, or I know, used to be able to do that when you were perhaps a little younger. But yeah, the fact that you were able to do it when you were younger is probably even more impressive, to be honest. Mahesh 07:11 Like the way I did it was I sort of used patterns to analyze, like, I thought, you know, today is December the 18th. And it's a Friday. So next year, I know that next year is not a leap year, so it will be a Saturday. Podcast Host 07:24 So then you can just mentally do the math or the arithmetic and work it out pretty quickly. Mahesh 07:29 I knew I knew what the views were. And it was quite simple. And I took a lot of shortcuts to do it. So yeah. Podcast Host 07:35 Okay. And I'm also interested in I guess, how your ideas or understanding of intelligence has changed through this experience, because you came in with a set of skills, and you came in with a set of aptitude. But I'm sure you met a lot of other students through the process, like your friends to the competition, who have different skill sets, different aptitudes, etc. So what do you define? Or how do you understand intelligence? When people speak about, oh, someone's a genius? Like, is it an IQ score? Is it memorization? Is it you know, under pressure, being able to solve things on a TV show? Like, what's your understanding of intelligence? Mahesh 08:15 I think, you know, people who define intelligence purely based off things like an IQ score or test results, it's a bit of a tunnel vision, sort of, because there are other things that determine how well you perform in a certain situation. Obviously, if you are in an exam, how much you know, is an integral part. But as well as that, it's how well you deal with the pressure of being in an exam. And even if, you know, it's the sort of mental images that you have while doing the exam, because if you walk in, and you're like, I'm going to fail this exam, then your mind adjust to that sort of, I'm going to fail, I'm not going to pass. But if you come in with confidence, which is the confidence is aided, if you prepare well, then knowing you prepared well, you feel good about the exam, which then enables you to do well. So even if you know, even if you're not a straight A student, if you if you have those external factors, it can help you do well. So it's not it's not just Nike, yeah. Podcast Host 09:17 Right. Right. You know, it's a good way of thinking about it. And I'm sure like, your understanding of intelligence is changed as a result of the competition as well like saying, people who are really good at X or Y, or Z, or you know, whatever it might be that they've got a really good skill setting, and you're able to appreciate it even though you might not be at their level, you're like, yeah, they're really smart for that particular reason. They're really smart for that particular reason. like everyone's got their own kind of flavor of smart if you know what I mean. Yeah, Mahesh 09:42 and it can also it can depend on prior experiences, like I was good at that dates thing because I stayed in calendars all the time. And people who would have read a lot when they were younger, are naturally better at English and spelling, and things like that, because they've basically grown up around books and words, so You can see like, there was one guy on the shirt he was the name was Justin. I believe he was 10. And he was ridiculously good anagrams and anagrams were, in my opinion, the hardest part of charging is I didn't get a single one, right. And so there were 11 letter words, and he was getting the anagrams within five seconds. He was amazingly good at it. And I asked him and I said, How are you this good at anagrams? Did you just do a lot of practice on these? or What did you do? And he said, I used to read a lot when I was little. And I had a set of jigsaw puzzles with the 26 letters on them. And I would make words and imri, arrange them and make more words and things like that. So there's that kind of experience, which helps you to be better at something in the future. Yeah, Podcast Host 10:43 it's interesting, I think, in terms of that kind of early concept of what makes a genius, right, like when I was in primary school, and I think this might be a situation for you as well, not too long ago, it was about the times table races, and whoever is like dominating the times table races who just cannot be beaten, everyone's like, Oh, my God, who is that kid. And usually like, they've got the times table on the back of the bathroom door, or like back of their bedroom door. And they just say it all the time, they come across it all the time. And as a result, like it's just, you know, the recall is a lot easier for them. But it is interesting, like how a kind of very specific, almost trivial type of skill, like solving anagrams or memorizing a deck, I mean, memorizing a deck of cards is actually pretty impressive. And I'm interested to ask like how your brain processes that kind of information. But it's like a trivial skill down at a really high level can take a student, especially when they're kind of eight to 12 years old, from being just a normal student up to like genius level, because they do it super super well, like 10 times better than any other student. And even if it's like a fairly basic skill, everyone's going to be looking at that student being like, Oh my god, they're a genius, even though they just grew up around that one particular skill. Do you see that that kind of thing is an aspect of child genius, where they might not necessarily be an all rounder, like super smart student, but they've just got a particular skill they're really good at. Mahesh 12:07 I should have mentioned this before, but how other people perceive you can also impact how you perceive yourself. And so if people are walking around looking at you and saying, That kid is a genius, and makes you feel good, and it makes you feel confident. And in this day and age of technology, times, tables and things, it's all about beating everyone at mathletics, and things like that. So Oh, that's what it was when I was in, prep a new one. So you know that that sort of also impacts how you go about things. And even if it's just one skill, that one skill could be anything and everything amazes people. And so, you know, when when people are that sort of all struck by you, it makes you feel good, too. Podcast Host 12:48 Yeah, well, let's get into that whole kind of perception thing, because I'm really interested in that. You've been crowned Australia's child genius. Since that time, how well or not well has that title set with you. Because obviously, like some people might say that that adds pressure, because I saw the trophy that you want, it's half your size, it's massive. So I mean, having that kind of trophy, having that kind of title, it might give you confidence when you go into school, or go into different interactions with different people. But yeah, how was that title set with you over the last year or so? Mahesh 13:19 It gives me a bit of pride to know that people recognize me for that. But on the other end, you know, I don't necessarily approve of the fact that that's all that people know me for. Like, sometimes if I introduce myself to people like, Oh, you want this TV show. And like, there's things there's other things about me, I feel like they see it as the only part of my personality. And that irks me a little bit, but I'm still super happy that they do know that because, you know, it's like odd that they have heard of me, they've watched this show. So it's like, it makes you in that sense, feel good. But you know, I don't necessarily agree with the fact that it should be all people know me for and my friends have been very supportive before as well. So that is also something that I very much appreciate. Like they while it was airing, they were very supportive of me. And one offered to buy my trophy for 100 bucks. So, you know, there's that sort of pay support, which is also great. So there's two sides of the coin. Podcast Host 14:22 Well, I mean, offering to buy the trophy for $400 is a bit of a odd side of the coin, but I guess you know, yeah, it's a pretty impressive trophy. So I don't really blame that friend of yours for wanting to buy it off you do you feel the weight of expectations when you go into an exam or you get up there and you know you're doing times tables in primary school, whatever it might be. Did you feel the weight of expectations that like everyone was trying to beat you? Mahesh is like the child genius. And if you slip like a Mako to everyone be like oh, like Mahesh 14:54 everyone loves a bit of friendly competition. And no one's perfect and being child genius. Doesn't get guarantee that I'm going to ace every exam, or be the darks of my school or things like that. I do feel sometimes that pressure that comes from it, but I try not to let it get to me. Because, obviously, yeah, this is a big achievement. But it's, as I said before, it's not everything about me, I can do other things. And so I try to keep it out of my head, and which is also, you know, something that helped me during the competition, because I was being looked at as one of the top people in that pool of 16. And, you know, I just kept doing my thing and paid off, so you can get into that circle of letting it get to you. And then it sort of makes you crumble a little bit or, you know, you can push it away, and I try my best to keep it out of a shot. Podcast Host 15:46 Well, I think it's really the difference between healthy competition and unhealthy competition. And if students are kind of getting towards that unhealthy competition, where they're getting anxiety around exams, where they're like, feeling like one Mark slipped is like a big issue, then that's starting to get unhealthy. Would you agree with that? Mahesh 16:03 Yeah, I think so you know, that there's a line that needs to be drawn sometimes, like, sometimes, you know, my parents, if I dropped a few marks in an exam, which I know that I shouldn't have, then you know, it's like, it's good. Because I get encouragement from my parents, it's like, you know, I know you can do better not you should be doing better. I know, you can do better that sort of constructive criticism versus not so constructive criticism. And you know, sometimes my friends joke with me like your child Janie's you should be icing it, I take that lightly. And because after all, you know that they're just my peers. They're not like, you know, minority finger or anything. So I enjoy the sort of banter that comes with it. But I agree that there is a line that needs to be drawn, Podcast Host 16:49 I really respect that you have reflected on the title and how you interact with it, right? Like, I feel like it's not a title that's owning you and changing the way you see the world. Like, it's just something that you know, is there and it's kind of ever present. But you don't let it get to you, which I think, yeah, pretty impressive. And it's something that I think a lot of students struggle with early on to kind of have that maturity around a title. Now, you're at a great school here in Australia, and you're also part of the Crimson rise as well. But what do you like to learn? And how do you keep yourself interested and engaged and you know, wanting to learn more. Mahesh 17:28 So I, I do a fair bit of extension I did a lot in primary school, I still do a fair bit here and there. And my secondary school, I think there's also external factors, like, obviously, you can't be doing all work and no play. And I feel like, again, having really great peers around me has helped me to, you know, stay focused, because when I want to, I can relax a little bit, that helps me to stay switched on when I need to, and keeps me motivated to learn. Because I know that whenever I step into a classroom, I've always got great people around me. And so it makes me you know, look forward to going to school and things like that. Podcast Host 18:08 Now, if you had an hours free, or say a day free, and you were in the mood to learn something, what would you spend your day learning? Mahesh 18:16 It's a good question. I've always been interested in making music electronically, using digital audio workstations, things like GarageBand Logic Pro, and I've always enjoyed doing it at school, and I've bought a MIDI keyboard, which I use at home, to make music. And I've always wanted to learn how to really properly do it, like the professional says, probably something that I would go through first. Podcast Host 18:41 Nice. Well, it's interesting, I've come across a lot of students, as a result of being the host of the top of the class podcast, who are doing their own learning in a lot of different areas. hadn't heard that one before. So I think Go for it, you know, like, yeah, it'd be interesting to kind of see where that ends up. And, you know, it's interesting to kind of, I think, apply yourself to research projects and all this other kind of cool extension. So if you are wanting to get out of the school bubble a little bit, where would you go? Would it be Instagram? Would it be going on Google YouTube? Like, if you wanted to learn something that was a bit of left of center and to engage in a different field completely? Where would you go? Mahesh 19:20 If I wanted to learn something for free, obviously, YouTube is the first place you'd go, because there's tons of how to videos on nearly every area. Udemy is good. If you've got a little bit of money to spend. I wanted to take a course in a in a programming language, then I would head straight there. So I wanted to learn all about the aerospace industry in half an hour, then I'm going to YouTube but if I wanted to learn how to program and I bought, then I would go to Udemy. Okay, no, that's Podcast Host 19:50 a good differentiation. I like that. Talk to me about the deck of cards memorization because that seems to be an impressive part of what about what you did on the child genius program. What was the challenge if you could explain it, I mean, sounds pretty obvious memorize a deck of cards. But how did you perform on the program in doing that, and then I think it would be great to kind of learn a little bit about how your brain processes like a lot of information very quickly, and like seeing patterns or whatever you might do. Mahesh 20:17 By that stage of the competition, there were 12 competitors remaining. And we had 45 minutes to memorize a randomly shuffled deck of cards that had been shuffled and then bound with a key chain thing. So basically, you had to memorize those and come out and recite them in front of the host, the two panelists and the crowd. And so I had a very, very, very strange technique to do this, because I knew that I would have 45 minutes, I chose a technique, which was sort of would take more time, like some people, were memorizing them in 10 minutes, and then just practicing practicing practicing for the remaining 35. But, you know, because I knew that I had that time, what I did was, I was an avid FIFA player at the time of the competition. And so I had a bunch of, you know, lineups of different teams memorized. And so I assigned each assigned four teams to each suit. And so what I did from there was I knew their starting lineups, like by heart, and so each card was assigned to assign him so one was the goalkeeper 235 with defenders, six through eight were midfielders nine through the jack were attackers, queen to substitute goalkeeper and kings a head coach. And so I would go through the card, and we had paper to write the notes down. And so I've got one, this is this player from this team. And once I was done with that, I flipped the paper over and start writing a short story based on it would read like commentary by the end of it is this guy passes to this guy. And if it was a goalkeeper coming next then and I had a striker beforehand, I had a little jacket, this guy shoots and scores past him. If that makes sense. Yes. And so I went through this with the full 52 cards, then I would read it through twice. And then I by then I will be able to recite it. And it works for me, I got all 52 cards, and I recited them pretty quickly, one minute and 15 seconds, which is good. Podcast Host 22:16 That is crazy. What an awesome technique a I think that it actually combines a lot of like, I've done some interesting research into memorization and techniques for that bit like that whole kind of story concept, or attaching what is I guess an arbitrary figure, like the jack of spades or whatever, to something that you're more familiar with? Which is exactly what you did? So is this are these like practice skills for you? Did you know that you were going to do that as you came in? Or as the challenge came up? You're like, Okay, I've got to memorize things. What do I know Really? Well, I know FIFA lineups. Mahesh 22:49 Well, in this in the case, specifically of the memorizing cards, I'd seen it happened last year. So I knew, you know, that's a sort of unique thing. They're not going to get rid of that for next year. So when the time came to apply, I knew beforehand that I was going to need to do this. And so I watched three sports, mainly I watch a lot of cricket, basketball and soccer. And the one that stood out and I thought I would be best at was the soccer lineups. And so I went through it with my parents and we we practiced, it must have been about 20 times. And so with that level of practice, you know, I was feeling pretty good heading in. And as I said, a while back, that confidence also plays a part in how you perform. And because I was feeling good about myself, I think that helped me just sort of sit down and I was getting straight into it. Podcast Host 23:40 Yeah. So does that kind of technique of memorization carry over into any other aspects of academia? Like if you're going into an exam? Do you also have FIFA players and lineups on your mind? Or is it just specific to memorizing cards? Mahesh 23:56 I wouldn't use that technique if I needed to memorize things like dates. But because it's a bit long and convoluted, and it was unique to that situation where I knew I would have that time. Unless you already know beforehand. I wouldn't use it because it's it takes too long. It's very unique to that situation. Podcast Host 24:18 But is that how you generally approach learning new things is like, Okay, I've got this new piece of information or I need to be able to reproduce what I'm saying he he then kind of like sifting through what techniques might be best for that given situation? Mahesh 24:34 Yes, sometimes, you know, like in in another round of child genius we were given a table with so it was related to creatures of the ocean. And we had the English name, the scientific name, the depth, they found out that diets their size, their lifespan, and interesting facts about them and where they found in the world. And so that was a giant table of information. for which it was sort of best to split it up. And we again had a lot of notes. So the first sort of step I had was making connections between the English and scientific names, like a sample question might be, provide the scientific name for the great white shark or something like that, like, I might try and make a connection between the English and scientific name, that one will sort of just sit down and memorize it. Like there was no clear cut technique which I use to go with that. Podcast Host 25:31 Right. But I think what I'm saying from you, though, is that when you see a set of information, whether it be cards or deep sea animals, those kinds of things, it's like, how can I make a bit of a pattern out of whatever I'm saying, How can I make this easy for myself? Can I pair things up? Can I, you know, relate it to something I already know. So it's not 100 pieces of information, it's 50 pairs of information. Mahesh 25:52 A sort of good analogy that I sort of just popped into my mind is, when you're using a vacuum cleaner to clean your house, it's not going to pick everything up in one word, which is why you go back to the start and go again. After that, it does pick it up. And it's the same with information. Like when I first got this table of information, I would scan it, and sort of pick up information. Obviously, I can't memorize everything by reading it in one go. And so and I go back and go through it again, and again, and again, and again. And so I would split it up into pages in the same way that you vacuum different rooms at different times. And so that was sort of something that helped me instead of trying to memorize the whole thing in one go, we had one hour for the memory round, and it was 583 pages. So you know, I take about 12 minutes, approximately first six minutes is memorizing everything on that page, then next six minutes is, you know, sort of trying to recite to myself, what's on there? Podcast Host 26:50 Okay, you know, it's interesting techniques. Mahesh 26:52 My techniques are a little unorthodox, but you know, they worked for me, they might not work for everyone, but they helped me a lot. And so it's sort of just from my personal experience. Podcast Host 27:03 Okay, well, let's break it down for perhaps the general audience out there. If there was one or two pieces of advice that you would give for students to approach memorization as a technique, or kind of like figuring out what works best for them. What advice would you give? Mahesh 27:18 I think the best advice I can give them is, don't dismiss anything as that's not gonna work for me always give it a shot, no matter how weird or wacky it is. Because that FIFA technique which I use for cards, it was idea that came from my dad, he said, Is there anything you're interested in that you can link to these cards? And I said, I like I like playing FIFA. And he said, What have you thinking, and then I came up with this lineup idea. And I thought it was really weird. But then when I tried it, it works really well. And so don't be quick to dismiss anything. Or I guess don't judge the book by its cover. Yeah, just give everything a shot. And it also depends on the situation. If you're getting something a couple of weeks before the exam, try the sort of vacuum cleaner thing, study one day, take as much as you can, then test yourself on what you've attended taking the previous day, and then fill in those gaps. I hope that makes sense. Podcast Host 28:11 Yeah, no, it does. I think it makes even more sense. When I think back to the exams that I did in the past. I don't do any exams these days, luckily. But you know, when I was going through exams, I didn't really have any techniques. I was just kind of like studying my notes. And I think it was kind of haphazard as to what I would remember. And what I would forget. However, seeing it one of the guys when we're doing Australian history exam. It's pretty funny. We're walking into the exam. And he was so nervous. He was sweating heaps, and he had written quotes down on the palm of his hand because he couldn't remember them. And his hand was all sweaty. So they're all smudging. And I'm like, bro, you did not prepare too Well, did you hear? And he was like, dude, I'm so stressed. I hate this. So it's like that exam anxiety. And I think, I think if you can say to yourself, honestly, that you prepared and planned for the exam and you had certain techniques in preparation, it will just give you so much more confidence going in, right? Like, you must go into an exam pretty confident, because you have been applying techniques to the way you study, not just putting in hours into study. And I think that's a quite a big difference when you think about it. Like it's studying smarter. Everyone says, you know, you got to study smart. And I think one of the things that you must be able to do by now is definitely study smart. Mahesh 29:28 Yeah, like work smart. Not hard. Yeah, it's at the end of the day, everyone has their own preferences, things work for people that might not work for other people. You know, someone after listening to this might throw out a deck of cards and try the FIFA method, but it might not work. You need to build up a healthy fear for addiction to get to get to that point. So it's unique to everyone. But again, like don't dismiss anything as too weird or too wacky because there is no technique which is completely useless to the situation. Podcast Host 30:00 Fantastic. Just a few more questions for you, Mahesh, what's your mentor group or what's your, they say you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And people who are encouraging you, you mentioned your friends have been fantastic support. But I'm going to guess your parents have also been a great support sounds like your dad's been really integral to kind of helping you develop, but then there's the young Mensa community, you've got your friends now that you've met through the child genius program. So I guess who these days do you see is like your core group that helps you to keep pushing along and doing great things. Mahesh 30:32 Obviously, you know, the most integral people to that are my, all my family, my parents, obviously, they're responsible for who I am, like the 50% of who I am today is that and they made decisions when raising me which have come out to be the right decision. So obviously, I would like to them and what they've done for me and the sacrifices they made, you know, fleeing a war in Sri Lanka to come to come here so that I can have a better life is something that I don't take take for granted. Because it's allowed me to have a much better education and set myself up much better for the future. And then after that, you know, is my friends, they were like a great support for me, you know, the very few who knew that I was doing child genius. And then by the time it was airing, you know, everyone knew the sort of the banter and jokes about it has been, you know, it's been good. And I also, you know, sort of indebted to them for the support that they've given me throughout this time. And then I've got a 10 year old little brother, who made a fleeting 32nd appearance on child genius, which he was very proud of. And he's also, you know, an integral part because, as opposed to if I was an only child, the personality changes a lot. And so he's been there for me a lot as well, which is really great. Podcast Host 31:52 And then what kind of role does young mentor typically play? Because I know there's a lot of students out there who probably know of mentor but might not know that there is a young mentor community. But would you recommend pretty highly intelligent students to look into joining something like young Mensa? Mahesh 32:08 Yes, 100%, they've No, I don't always get the chance to go to their events, because I've got a pretty busy schedule, but they're a really great opportunity for everyone to connect with other people who have the same level as you. And that's something that shouldn't be taken lightly. And, you know, it's, it's like joining young Mensa, obviously, there is a requisite level. But even if you don't feel like you're at that level, just give it a shot. Because, you know, I I didn't think that I was at the requisite level for child genius, but look where I am now. So it's a really great opportunity and do not pass up on it. Podcast Host 32:47 Good recommendation, I think it is a fantastic organization to be a part of like international organization of smart people work. Why would you miss out on that? Right? And that's a pretty, pretty key way of summing it up. And what's next for you? So you just wrapped up your aid? What do you see you kind of progressing through school? And potentially, if you had a crystal ball, what would you want to do after school as well? Mahesh 33:11 Well, obviously, the aim is I would like to get into a top American University be that, you know, some, like one of the Ivy League universities or MIT, Stanford, etc. And that's sort of like the ultimate dream. And I'm hoping that at least as a nation, America is a bit more stable by then. But that's the ultimate dream. And I've seen people in my family and my parents, friends, they've dreamt it, and I've done it. So it's, I'll always look at that as something that I'd like to do. And then after that, I'd love to work at one of the big tech companies like Facebook, Google, Microsoft, or Apple, because Google CEO, being from a community that speaks the same language as me is a role model to me. And I look up to him because he grew up in India, in South India, in a middle class family in this, you know, apartment in Chennai. And so the way that he's able to been able to drag himself up from that is really inspiring. And he's sort of the reason why I like to go to America study work. Podcast Host 34:20 Yeah. Actually visited Stanford in January. I don't know if you've ever been to the end of the US campuses, but did a tour there. And I visited Brown, Harvard, MIT, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Stanford, UCLA, UCSD and UC Berkeley as well. It was a very busy two weeks for me when I was going over there, I had no kind of conceptions as to which university I would really love. And you know, I'm not going to go to university again anytime soon. But it was the NYU campus and I was like, Oh, this really feels like home for me. Whereas the other students who I was taking on the tour, they all felt like they would fall in love with Harvard, but a lot of them were Like, oh, Brown University is amazing, or UC Berkeley was the one for me type of thing. You know, like every student felt a connection to a different campus, depending on the field, and depending on the location, the vibe, and it was at a time when like, there was not really many students on campus, but we're actually meeting students who were kind of on holidays, and they were coming on campus just to show us around. But it's really interesting to kind of get a different vibe, just by being on campus and feeling do I belong here? Or do I not, but it was really interesting. So if you said right now, which University you'd like to be at most? Mahesh 35:32 Well, Harvard's the ultimate dream. I think that's always it's always been that way. Because Harvard is the most famous sort of American University. When when someone says American University, you think immediately Harvard, but we'll have to see what happens with that. Podcast Host 35:49 And if students wanted to get in touch with you, how would they do that? Mahesh 35:51 I have an Instagram, which will probably be in the description of the podcast, and you can get in touch with me, I'll respond as quickly as I can I check in quite frequently. So yeah, feel free, Podcast Host 36:02 Awesome well Mahesh, it's been awesome to chat with you. It's been so good to hear about your techniques for memorization, to get rid of an insight into what it was like being on child genius. And to get a bit of a prediction about where we might find you in a couple years time. wishing you all the best, and I look forward to following your journey on Instagram. Mahesh 36:19 All right. Thank you, Alex. Podcast Host 36:20 Cheers Mahesh. Thanks for listening to Top of the Class. subscribe for future episodes. For show notes and to plan your best future head to crimsoneducation.org

Ep #24 TIME's Kid of the Year, Gitanjali Rao, on Science, Education and a Problem Solving Mindset

🗓 JAN 6, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and in this episode, I chat with none other than the first ever TIME Magazine Kid of the Year, Gitanjali Rao. Out of 5000 amazing young people, Gitanjali was judged to be Kid of the Year for her STEM innovations, community focused apps and efforts to inspire others. We chat about how she approaches global problems, her views on how education needs to change and what she hopes to do after school. Let's chat with Gitanjali Rao. Hello, good afternoon, Gitanjali. Gitanjali Rao 00:48 Hi, thank you for having me. Podcast Host 00:50 Oh, no, it's my pleasure to have you here and be on the Top of the Class podcast. I'm going to guess this isn't your first podcast recording? Gitanjali Rao 00:57 It is not, no. Podcast Host 00:58 Well, is it your first interview with an Australian though? Gitanjali Rao 01:01 It is actually yeah. Podcast Host 01:03 There you go, first one, fantastic. Well, I feel like I know a fair bit about your story already. Given that there is quite a lot of interviews out there. I'm looking forward to chatting and hearing more about everything that you've done. And obviously like, congratulations on being TIME Magazine Kid of the Year. That was a really nice photoshoot that they did for you. Gitanjali Rao 01:21 Yeah, it was actually a five hour photo shoot before I even knew I was Kid of the Year. So I was like, 'Why are there 25 people here? And why is the photoshoot five hours?', but there was a good reason. And it was worth it at the end. Podcast Host 01:34 Yeah, absolutely. Well, we can get into it then if that's okay. Gitanjali Rao 01:38 Yeah, absolutely. Podcast Host 01:39 Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Gitanjali Rao 01:41 First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm Gitanjali Rao, I am 15 years old. And I'm an author, innovator and promoter of STEM. So I essentially use science and technology as a catalyst for social change. But recently, a lot of my work has also moved to global outreach. So helping other youth and students just like me understand, you know, their inner passion for innovation and making a difference in society. Podcast Host 02:03 An author, innovator and promoter of STEM. When did you settle on that title? Gitanjali Rao 02:08 I guess, like literally like a week ago, because everything is constantly changing. So, um, yeah, that's my title now, I guess. Podcast Host 02:18 Yeah, it's a great way to think of yourself. And I guess it gives you that breadth and flexibility to do what you want to do and explore a whole lot of different areas, because I know there's a lot of different strings to your bow that you've developed apps, and you have developed technology, Tethys, as well. And you have written a book, and now you're learning to fly as I saw by your Twitter feed yesterday. So there's a lot of different things going on. Is there a story perhaps that encapsulates your love of science? Like if you were to go back through your, you know, how Gitanjali found her love of STEM, what would be the one story that comes to mind? Gitanjali Rao 02:53 I guess it would be a combination of a lot of different things. But if I had to stick with one, it would actually be my uncle got me to science kit. When I was four years old, I actually asked for like a Barbie dream house, which I didn't end up getting. It honestly changed my life forever and projected that I realized that the, I guess the way science can be incorporated in the world around me. And even though it was like, how can you make a volcano out of baking soda and vinegar, it still kind of gave me that, you know, an idea of what science is and how it can be used to solve real problems. Podcast Host 03:25 And you are solving real problems, which I'm excited to chat to you about. But before we get to those real problems, I think that there's a lot of interesting skill sets that you have, and a lot of interesting knowledge that you already have. What do you see as being some of the most important things that you now know, that helps you to become a promoter and innovator, and advocate of STEM? So there's obviously coding, I'm going to guess you know that because you do some app development. There's like how carbon nanotubes bond to fluoride and lead and all those kinds of things as well. So yes, I've done a little bit of research about what you do, which is awesome. But yeah, is there any particular kind of body of knowledge or skill set that you think has enabled you to step forward and become like such a great innovator in STEM? Gitanjali Rao 04:06 Yeah, I think honestly, beyond all the technology skills that I've kind of personally developed over the years, it's also a strong sense of community and realizing the reason for innovation and the reasons behind innovating and coming up with ideas. Like obviously, there is an aspect to, you know, creating a device or coding something. But I think beyond that, it's more important to understand how coding something can lead to an impact on the world. So most of all, it's just my curiosity and being aware of what's going on around me because I can fully tell you that you can create an idea without knowing how to code or without knowing complicated cam concepts. But I think the more important thing is developing a curious skill set in which you can, you know, continue to maintain your passion, just the power that you put in everything you do. Podcast Host 04:52 Yeah. Which is an interesting point I was going to ask you about whether you think it's mindset or skill set that enables you to do what you do. I think a lot of people kind of look at your story and say, Oh, she's a genius and kind of dismiss it as like you being a freak of nature type of thing, when in actual fact, it's probably due to more of like a mindset and how you see the world. So how you look at a problem like say contaminated water in Flint, Michigan, and look at yourself and think that you are the best person and well placed to make a difference in this problem, right? A lot of students will look at this problem and be like, that is beyond me. You know, there's people working in government, there's people working in private companies, etc, who are working on this problem. How does like a 12 or 13 year old Gitanjali Rao help in this situation? But you did. And you created Tethys, which is awesome. So what was your mindset at that time that enabled you to think that you were able to help in that situation? Gitanjali Rao 05:45 Yeah, I think beyond anything, it was the idea of like, going into some sort of problem like this. It's basically like you were talking about that mindset of looking at the world in a different perspective than you normally would. Like, it's easy to just let the news play in the background. But I think it's another thing to try and pick up what's going on in society. So like, I heard about the water crisis in Flint, and it honestly kept me up. I think, just like knowing how many people were affected by that problem. And when something is that has an impact on your life more than anything, if no one else is going to do it, I realized that I needed to do something. And that didn't have to be through an innovative approach. It could have been through activism through raising my voice through other people to make it happen. But I chose to go that path. And I think that's the mindset you need to keep in mind when innovating and coming up with ideas or when even identifying a problem. It's the idea that what if I look at this from a different perspective, what if I pick it up, as you know, something that I can do instead of waiting for someone else to do it? Podcast Host 06:45 Well, I am interested in your quote, actually, which we could probably bring back to this Tethys project that you worked on, which was and I got quoted a fair bit after your interview with Angelina Jolie, which was observe, brainstorm, research, building communicate, as like your process in how you approach these problems. And I think it's a really good way of thinking about things. And for students who are listening to the podcast, I think this is a really interesting way that you see a problem and you don't look at the entirety of the problem, you break it down into these steps. So can you perhaps take those steps and apply it to a project that you've done? It could be Tetris, but actually take us through, like, what was it that you observed? How did you brainstorm How did you razors? How did you build and how you communicate? understanding that this could be a long answer? Gitanjali Rao 07:30 Yeah, so the idea of this whole process is actually something I developed, just by doing it over and over again. So the whole concept of observe, brainstorm, research, build, communicate, it's always been this thing that I have, you know, stuck with, and I didn't know it at the time. But now I've basically been able to flesh it out into words. And I think that's the really exciting portion of it is, this is something that I have used, but more importantly, anyone can use. So this whole concept of this process that I've created, essentially just a prescriptive process towards innovation, it's my take on it. And I think that's really what differentiates it from our guests. Let's see what have we learned until the scientific process like the scientific method, it's like, come up with a hypothesis, test out your hypothesis, analyze your data and come up with a conclusion. If it doesn't work, do it again. And that's obviously so straightforward. And then we have the engineering design process, which is fairly similar, but it's more of like, I need to basically build something. And if that building thing doesn't work, then I need to tear it down and build it again. So the thing about innovation is it can really be taken in your own way, you can make innovation, whatever you want it to be. And that's really why I stuck with it. Knowing that I wouldn't get bored of it because of the different ways that I can innovate. So an innovation can take anywhere from what two days to three years, it just depends on how you want to spend your time and how you want to work your way through the process. So this process essentially just came about, by me doing it over and over and over again. And now I'm basically just sharing what worked for me with so many other people around the world. Podcast Host 09:08 Well, it's good that you are sharing these lessons with a lot of other people. And I know that you've been a TED speaker and a lot of other things getting on the stage quite a lot and sharing your message. When you do get up on a stage. What do you think students? Like if you're talking to a high school audience? What do you want them to take away from your talks? Gitanjali Rao 09:25 Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, anyone can do it. Yeah, I see that all the time. And people don't believe it. Like you were talking about how a lot of people think I was born like a freak of nature. And it's, I guarantee you I was not I like was basically like, I still am like every other kid out there. I just basically take that energy and passion that I have for the things I love to do and put it into the real world. And if you're doing great things for the world, that's all that matters. All this recognition. While it is fantastic for my own motivation, it's almost like a side effect that happens. And I think that that's what everyone needs to understand is that if you are doing great things in the world, if you are putting in the effort to do what you love, the secondary things will come automatically. Like my dad actually recently told me that, like, we were talking about it, we're like, oh, if this hadn't happened, this wouldn't have happened. Like, if I didn't win Kid of the Year, then I probably wouldn't be doing all these interviews now. And I think we both have to take a second and reflect and be like, well, if someone is doing real world, or real work for the world, they will be recognized in some sort of manner. And I think that that's just what I want to put out there to everyone. And hopefully, that's what people take away from my talks is if I can do it, and you can do it, anyone can do it. And I said that to Angelina... Jolie. I can't be on first name basis. That's so weird for me. But no, yeah, I did tell her that. And I think she felt moved by it. Because it's so true. Like, I'm basically just a kid doing what she loves. And I think it's so important to put it out there that I no, by all means am not a freak of nature. I am just a kid, like anyone else out there doing what, you know, creating an impact for the world. Podcast Host 11:06 Yeah, that's a really great way of thinking about it. And I love that response. I have been thinking about that quote, though, in that mindset of if I can do it, anyone can do it. And my challenge to that one is then what is stopping a whole legion of Gitanjali Raos, you know, young innovators, etc. coming out into the world, I know, there's like, I mean, through just the Top of the Class podcast, I've met some amazing people. And I challenge anyone to have a more inspiring follow list on Twitter than I do. But it's interesting to kind of think if there's, you know, any kind of barrier or limitation that students are potentially experiencing, that is kind of stopping them or preventing them from unleashing their potential and unleashing their innovations on the world, whether that be a mindset, I think the common one being like, Oh, I'm just a student, what could I do maybe something else, or, you know, when I'm 20, or 30, I'll make a difference. Or it could be, you know, that idea that a lot of students are just saying, focusing on school, like getting a good score, and doing those kinds of things and staying within the limitations of the school curriculum. But yeah, I'd love to get your take on that in terms of like, what do you see is the common limitations that are stopping students from achieving at that kind of heights that you may have set and understanding that the heights that you said, are fairly dizzying heights? Gitanjali Rao 12:23 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's first important to address that the education system has stayed the same for what, like 50 years, and we haven't changed a thing about it until now, like the whole virtual aspect idea. But I think the thing that needs to change is the fact that we shouldn't be judged on our ability to get an A in math class, instead of should be our ability to solve problems use it for real world situations. So I do get that because I am a high school student. And I do want to get an A in the class while doing the things that I love. So I think the reason that's stopping all of these high school students is one, they don't know where to start. Second, they don't know if they can do it. At third, it's almost like I have to do the bare minimum for school, and then be done with it. And I get that feeling. And I know how hard it is to try and balance everything. So like to address all those problems. Why for not knowing where to start, that's exactly why I'm putting out this process for anyone to use, why I'm sharing my story is to show the importance that people can anyone can do it. Secondly, balance your time has always been a hard thing for me too. And I think it's the idea of being able to combine what you love to do with school. So I was recently doing an interview and something that I really liked that I said was, when you go to school, you don't say I learned math, or today I'm going to learn math, English, science, you know, history, art, music, whatever you say, I'm going to school. And I think it needs to be that same sort of concept as I am, you know, I'm innovating for better. And that could be using things you learn in school, like using that a in math class for something better. And that's just what people need to understand. And it's so hard to kind of pick that up as well. But and it was hard for me to pick that up. And it's still hard for me to pick that up. And then lastly, the idea of taking it beyond an assignment. I think like the idea for tennis actually started out as a science fair project, it started out as something I wanted to do for like, it was an idea I came up with. And I was like, Hmm, maybe I get submitted into this challenge. And you know, I did end up winning, and I like the young scientist challenge and things like that. But I realized that I didn't want to stop there. Like it motivated me to go further. But I think that's where people are finding that holting point is when you see you know, you have a solution, you have an idea, and you get it so far. And then you compete and you forget about the whole thing. I honestly say take it beyond a classroom assignment, take it beyond a science fair because you can't do so much more with it. So those are basically some of my ideas of why there aren't more of me out there. And I think we really need to clear that up. And whether that's the way switching up how the education system works or whether that's in a way, you're just putting out the message to anyone can do it, I think it does need to be changed. And it's a valid question that kids are still asking. Podcast Host 15:12 Yeah, I can see that you are very passionate about this, which is awesome. I think it's that idea that the endpoint is the assignment grade, whereas like, maybe teachers instead of, you know, writing '''A" Great Job', they should be writing like '"A" Keep going, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next with this project', like giving students the option or giving students the the in to say, hey, look, you've done great on that project, keep working on it, you know, I'd love to see it continue and evolve. And not just over the course of say, a couple of weeks, which is what most science projects are at school, but over the course of a couple months, and maybe even a year or two, for a student really to play out the full story or the full potential of these projects. Which actually leads me to one of my other questions, in terms of like Tethys to these kinds of things. I know that you develop them within a fairly short frame of time, you know, it was only a couple of months, in some instances, I was chatting to the Google Science Fair winner from 2019 Fionn, who's lovely. And one of the things he said, which I thought was really interesting was that, surprisingly enough, if you're going to be an expert in a field, it doesn't take years and like a PhD to be an expert in that field. Sometimes it can take like a couple Google searches, reading Google Scholar, reading some articles watching some YouTube videos. And very quickly, you can be in the top like three or 4% of people in that field. Is that something you experienced? And if so, like, what are your shortcuts? Gitanjali Rao 16:36 He's totally right. And I think that that's the important thing is the idea that we have almost made this reality that you can only be an expert, if you do like, you know, your four years of high school, and then four years of college and then a PhD, and then take up full time research and build, it's not true. And while you know, you probably do need that to master like all of biology, like say, for one specific topic that you want to use out there, a couple Google searches is all it takes, I actually have a whole chapter in my book about the idea of you don't need to know all the things in the world. Like when I was learning about nanotubes, sensor technology, I was at the time. And I was kind of scared at the beginning, because I did not want to memorize the periodic table. And I went and told my mentor who was talking to you at that time, like we have to memorize the periodic table. And she's like, no, for what why? Why would you need to do that. And I think that we that's what I've grown up with is understanding that if I need to master something, I need to know everything about it. So if you want to learn about nanotubes, sensor technology, learn about nanotubes, just everything you need to know about nanotubes don't learn anything beyond that I cannot recite the full periodic table by heart, but I can tell you everything there is to know about carbon nanotubes. And I think that that's what we need to put out there is you do not need years of school to be an expert in the field, and you do not need years of research to come up with an idea, you know, the bare minimum sometimes helps out the most. Podcast Host 18:02 Yeah, exactly. And it kind of allows you to cut to the chase and say, you know, and then meet experts and kind of feel like you know what you're talking about, right. And I feel like there's probably that speed bump a lot of students faces, they feel like they know a topic, but they feel like they don't know enough yet to go out there and actually start approaching professors and that kind of thing. But I think a lot of students would probably surprise themselves like after, you know, a couple weeks of research that probably be able to hold a fairly sensible, you know, intelligent conversation with nurses in the field, just because they've gone deep into one particular topic, which is really good advice. Now I'm going to ask you some kind of practical questions, because I feel like this is an interesting side of young scientists in particular, what does your room look like? So I'm going to guess that you do a lot of like playing around with different experiments and ideas, etc. Do you have like books lying around? If so what books like you have a beaker lying around? I don't know. Like, can you give us a bit of a mental picture of what your room might look like? Gitanjali Rao 18:55 Yeah, I mean, it's usually messy, because I'm kind of chaotic all the time. But um, it's, it looks like basically every other teenagers room by the LED strips and have one for Christmas, but it's fine. Um, but I think that the whole idea, it basically looks like every other teenager's room, but obviously there are like, all sorts of books in there. I'm an avid reader, but I think the books aren't exactly what you're thinking. There's like the whole Percy Jackson series and the Hero's Olympus series. And that's it, basically. And I think that that's such an exciting question too, because you would expect it to be more than that. But oh, I basically just like every other tanger term, because I am like every other teenager, and I feel a lot of my research on a computer. But most of the time that I spend working on my stuff is in the lab at the University of Colorado, Denver. So that's where my whole lab desk and table and stuff like that is but my room is fairly simple. There's not really much going on. Podcast Host 19:53 That's okay. I mean, I think that's heartening to know that I think students if they thought well, I got to, you know, have a whole kind of lab set at home, while you've got the great situation of having a lab set at a university, what's it been like working at a university when you are 15 years old? Gitanjali Rao 20:09 Yeah, it's definitely a new new experience, just to. And it's almost humbling to because you go there and you realize, like, Whoa, these people know a lot. And I have learned so much over the past couple of years, I've been at the cell biology lab at MIT. And specifically, there's so much you can get out of every single person there. And whether it's like literally going down to grab lunch with someone, there's always something new to learn. I remember the expensive emails and forums that I had to sign just to get a 13 year old into the lab. But it has been so important guys getting into lab, the second thing was trying to get a key card into the lab, which another like two months. But I think the exciting thing is, I have the opportunity to do that. But I take advantage of it every second of the day. And I think, yeah, that's the biggest thing is I am so fortunate to have that opportunity. And I love working at that lot. And while it does benefit me in my project, I also spend a lot of time, you know, helping out at the lab, like running DNA gels, just, you know, doing the normal because there's always something to learn. Podcast Host 21:17 Yeah, I'm not sure like doing DNA gels is like doing the normal, but maybe for not many 15 year olds, maybe it is for you. But that's very cool. That's great to hear. And what are some of the goals of TIME magazine's Kid of the Year? Gitanjali Rao 21:30 I was telling someone the other day, I was like, I hope I haven't hit peak. Like, I'd be like, I don't know what could get better than the cover of TIME. But I think it's almost like a go with the flow situation. And I guess we'll just see what's in store for me in 2021. I guess the biggest thing is, I do want to keep coming up with ideas. whatever I'm doing, I want to keep innovating. I will obviously still be a high school student. I'll keep innovating, coming up with ideas, breaking up the lab, just to see where the world takes me. Podcast Host 21:57 Yeah. And obviously, like University is something that is in the sights. And I'm sure like, I know, actually, you've been an avid reader of some of MIT's publications in the past, which is awesome. Which universities are you potentially aiming for? Gitanjali Rao 22:11 Yeah. So there's a lot actually. And I do course, I'm still looking and I do change my mind a lot based on the different programs. But I think obviously, the bigger schools like MIT and Stanford are long shots for everyone. And I think, but I love their programs. And I love the campus as a whole. I've visited MIT a couple times, actually. And I love it there. And yeah, I'd love to go there one day, but I'm also really loving, like, local stuff like the Colorado School of Mines has a fantastic bio engineering program. And I've worked with a lot of people there as well, let's just see you better. Like I like it's fun for me to go in every day. And I could definitely see a future there is about I honestly don't know, I think it ranges a lot right now. And I do have a couple more years. So I'll probably just end up picking it out. But hopefully around this time next year, I'll have a closer idea. Podcast Host 23:05 Well, who knows? I mean, Stanford, MIT, you can't go wrong with these kinds of schools. And I'm sure like the Colorado School of Mines, and a lot of these other great universities are fantastic as well. But for someone who's already done so much, and is like already working at labs, what value do you see in a college degree? Gitanjali Rao 23:20 Yeah, I think so many things are important about higher education, I think it's just so hard to pick out. But the biggest thing about you know how higher education will involve is, I think, you have that opportunity to be able to do research full time while working on school. And that's the kind of lifestyle that I would love to live is using what I learn in class for real world experience. So like, I don't know, doing a unit on like genetics one day, like gene editing one and then going to the lab after class and, you know, trying it out. And I think that sounds so fun to me. But it also sounds so important for our future is being able to use what we learn in school for the real world. So I think that's the most important thing about higher education that prepares you to go out there and do whatever you're going to do after college. Podcast Host 24:11 Fantastic. My last question for you, Gitanjali, is, what do you think the world or educational science will look like in 2050? Gitanjali Rao 24:19 Oh, in 2050, I know, that's definitely. It's so far out too. So it's kind of hard to think about. But hopefully, we basically sorted out the education idea like we're going for more problem based learning approach. And I think I definitely want to see education for everyone. I know we're really struggling with that right now, especially in third world countries. So I don't think education should have a price put to it. So hopefully, we see education widely distributed. And apart from that, I hope we're living in a much safer and cleaner world. Like, I guess just contamination of natural resources is the thing of the past. And of course, everyone is just looking together towards one common goal, because I think that's what we need right now is just people who are all passionate about making change coming together for something bigger. Podcast Host 25:11 I love that. I love that. Well, Gitanjali it's been awesome to have you on the show. And thank you so much for sharing your insights. I know you got another interview to go to. And I know you've been doing some multitasking on the side there, which I'm very impressed by, by the way, it's been awesome having you on the show. And I really hope students connect with you on LinkedIn or Twitter or where could they find you? Gitanjali Rao 25:31 Oh, yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram. Um, both my twitter and instagram are @gitanjaliarao. And my LinkedIn is just at Gitanjali Rao and you can come check me out there. And yeah, feel free to talk to me. Podcast Host 25:46 Awesome. Well, thanks so much. It's been great to chat and enjoy the rest of your afternoon there in Colorado. Gitanjali Rao 25:50 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Podcast Host 25:52 No worries. Talk to you again soon.

Ep #23 Pitching to Investors and Developing Biotechnology in High School

🗓 JAN 2, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with 16 year old biotech entrepreneur, Neil Mitra. This episode is packed with tips based on Neil getting seed funding for his patented invention to help the visually impaired. We chat about how his idea evolved, pitching to investors, been a finalist at my table and checks. And he's recommended books for students to dive into entrepreneurship. Let's chat with Neil Mitra. Neil, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Neil 00:52 Sure. My name is Neil Mitra. I'm currently the founder and chief executive officer of EyeCane, which is a socially assistive robotics company, which is aiming to help the vision impaired individuals navigate I'm currently in grade 11. And really interested in biotechnology and entrepreneurship. Podcast Host 01:07 Okay, so yeah, it's a it's a big topic and makes me think that I'm talking to someone who's possibly twice your age, you've got a company specializing in eye care to help visually impaired navigate. When you say navigate, do you mean, like, navigate by walking or navigate by driving? Or how do you mean? Neil 01:24 Yeah, so pretty much like navigating by walking is the primary. Podcast Host 01:28 Okay, and so is it an app or is it something else? Neil 01:31 Yeah. So essentially, what we do is try to replace the current hatch technology systems that are currently on the market. So right now, the way that visually impaired individuals navigate it, like they use these things known as white canes, or tactile pavings. And the problem with the system is that tactile paving costs upwards of around $30 million to implement in a city such as Toronto, here in Canada. And that's in US figures. So it's quite a lot of money. At the same time. Like really, for visually impaired individuals, it's quite hard for them to navigate using tactile paving. And additionally, haptic navigation systems such as the ones which are made by our competitors, like we walk, or Sona dot, and stuff like that, what they do is they pretty much detect obstructions around the visual impairment visual, but do not actually guide the visually impaired individual. So what our solution is, essentially, we're creating a robotic version of a guide dog, essentially, we're taking a regular guide dog and creating a robot version of it completely minimal transport layer, a autonomous vehicle that a visually impaired individual can interact with. And it pretty much guides the visually impaired individual to any location that they need. So they connect a leash onto the device, and the device is just able to guide them through it. It has motors and everything to help visually impaired individuals navigate any location, regardless of the environment they are in, or in any setting. If it's outdoor or indoor, they can use it everywhere that they go. Podcast Host 02:59 So you've created a robotic guide dog effectively, that you can program to navigate to anywhere in a city. Neil 03:05 Yeah, essentially. And we currently have a proof of concept ready. We are right now going into the MVP stages. So our first MVP prototype is built. And our second one, which is the mass producible version is what we're currently working on. Podcast Host 03:18 Awesome. Talk to me about the timeline for all of this. I mean, how old are you now? You're what, 15, 16? Neil 03:25 I'm currently 16 years old. Podcast Host 03:27 Okay, so you're 16 years old, and the same time as being in your 11. At school? You are also creating a robotic guide dog. It seems like there's a lot going on. Is the timeline for this, like over a couple of years. Like when did you first get into this kind of interest of helping the vision impaired? Yeah, so it sort of started back in grade seven. So I think I was like, around 12 years old. Yep, around this time. And what happened was in our school, we had the science fair, and my own grandmother was visually impaired. So I wanted to do something that could help her actually navigate and she lives in India. And it's quite difficult to get any classical technology there in India. So it was a matter of like, understanding what I can do to really help my grandmother and essentially impact around 250 billion individuals just like yourself all across the globe. So really, I just began researching, understanding the basic principles of how visually impaired individuals navigate currently, what the current devices are on the market, understanding their current policies and what they're unable to do. And pretty much understanding a way how to improve on that. And how can I invent something that nobody else has done before to really help them? So that's when I kept on thinking about what can we do for this tactile paving problem. So the initial idea was to replace these tactile paving with 10 black lines. So these tend to be classic paint lines, which effectively get rid of the infrastructure cost and save around like $29.9 million, right for these governments. And you would just have a robot able to read these lines and have a cane attached to it so that the visually impaired individual can navigate from any location in the city. So that was my first initial idea. And I patented the invention back when I was in seventh. So filed a provisional patent. And then I went away to compete at the science fair, I was fortunate enough to in silver at the Canada wide science fair, which is pretty much our national science fair here in Canada. And then from there, throughout grade eight, and grade nine, I just kept on like really developing the device, mostly through grade eight, a lot of RNG work was done in terms of implementing a GPS app trying to implement obstacle avoidance. So our first obstacle avoidance feature became fully working in around June of 2018. So that is when our first stages of our autonomous transfer start to happen. And currently, right now what we're doing is like removing the paint line, use an entirely so making it completely autonomous advocate. We have a prototype of that right now. So throughout grade eight, it was pretty much developing that initial phase. And then in grade nine, I decided found a startup. So this was, I think I was I don't, yeah, I was like 14 or 14 years old. And I decided to go ahead and found the startup. And it was a great experience. So what happened was, I entered this competition called MIT logics, clubs. So it's pretty much like this huge High School startup competition among 1000 High School startups all across the globe. And they compete to become a global finalist. So only 20 Global finals, global finalists are selected to pitch in front of investors at MIT, and Boston, Massachusetts. So our team, we were lucky enough to be selected as one of those 20 pitches there. And after that, it really sort of our progress sort of skyrocketed. In terms of the business side, we got lots of connections, lots of leads to investors. And we just kept on continuing with the RMD. Really, we really focused on the RNG, we started to get like potential partnerships, the Canadian National Institute for the blind, which has over like 100,000 visually impaired individuals and their client base, which was a huge opportunity for us in terms of the business side. And then when I was in grade 10, we just kept on developing that out and grade 11. And about august of 2020, we got officially c funded and incorporated out of the state of Nevada. So that's pretty much like a rundown of where we're currently are. Well, thank you for that comprehensive rundown, and what a journey you've been on from starting at trying to help you grandma. And by doing a science fair to now getting seed funding in Nevada. That's a lot to unpack. And let's start by kind of going back to where all of this research and r&d took place. Were you doing this all from home? were you doing this at your school lab? We're going to universities like, how are you actually building robots conducting r&d? And you know, where does all this take place for you? 07:52 Yes. So before August, I'm funny, it was all pretty much self funded. I've worked on it in my home, in my own room, and just like going out there and just like building the robots through hand. So it's very much like all in my room. Podcast Host 08:09 What are we using to build the robot, we use the like, things you're buying online, or? 08:15 Yeah, so pretty much like literally just find the soldering irons, finding all the like circuitry board spine, like going to the library entry to printing, I didn't have a 3d printer back when I was actually like developing the encasing and stuff like that I soon did, except there was at a point where I just kept on building these prototypes, and there had to be a more effective method. So 3d printing was a huge win in terms of like getting all the encapsulations done for a device, and like building all the chances and stuff like that, at the same time really just like buying most of like the core parts from Amazon. And then just like hard coding them, and soldering them all together using a soldering iron, and just really building it in the garage. Podcast Host 08:56 Sounds like such an Iron Man thing to do, right? Like instead of building like a suit of armor, you're building like a guide dog or a robotic God, though, was that always the concept that you had in mind? Like after the after the black strips that you were going to do? Was that the next iteration? The robotic guide dog? 09:14 Yeah, absolutely. It was like the next big step. And it was pretty much like this, this long journey. This is like the long term vision that I had. And I decide to like, you know, start executing it and see where we go. Because really, back then what what happened was like there was a there was a lack of computation when it came to creating like this small layered autonomous vehicles back in like 2017, or back then and really going out now like technologists, progressive and more, and through really clean and smart coding, you can really utilize those computational powers that our president like just generic microchips to do something which is autonomous. So it does require a lot of c++ and hard coding to get that done. And a little bit of Python curious to make sure that this machine learning models work alongside Ross, which is the robot operating system, which is a pretty well known open source system that most robotic manufacturers also use. And and it's really a great experience in terms of going out there coding and building it. And it's a long and tedious process, especially when it comes to hardware. So unlike software where you can just have a quick push of a code, and it's there, the bug is fixed and hardware, you have to do a lot of iterations until you figure out really what's going wrong. Because even if your code is 100%, working, your robot may not work as well as intended to work. So there's a huge mechanical engineering principle, which that play alongside a software engineering problem. So both of those together create a very interesting and and unique problem in the engineering side, which is quite, which is quite fun to solve. Podcast Host 10:51 Yeah, yeah. Well, it sounds like you need to really want to do this and need to have a lot of motivation to see all these challenges through and we'll get to those challenges in a sec. But I'm interested in like, what is your superpower? Like? What is the thing that sets you apart from other students? Is it the fact that you are able to self learn really quickly? Or you are a learner or ideation? Like, do you come up with ideas? Or are you great at delegating? Like, what would you say is one or two or three of your really core skills that has enabled you to go from a science fair back in year seven, to now being in year 11, with a biotech startup? 11:27 Yeah, so really, I would say, to summarize it in one word, it would be like to drive. So it's pretty much a combination of passion, and really just hunger more than anything. So you have to be really, really passionate for what you do. And you have to work hard. That's also a really key component, you have to be willing to make sacrifices, and you have to be willing to give up a lot of things for your specific passion. And I think my superpower code on code is really having that drive. So no matter what consequences there are, no matter what setbacks there are, I'll still figure out a way to go through them. And I'm really tenacious in that sense, especially when it comes to engineering, or when it comes to business sense in terms of getting investors because I know what I build is right. And I know, in my long term vision, I am willing to work hard to make that future better for others. So really, having that mindset, and then mentality of focusing on that passion is what gets me through. Podcast Host 12:22 Okay, that's awesome. Let's unpack that a little bit further. Because I think that's a really interesting thing. A lot of students obviously struggle to find something that they're passionate about, it's always been a challenge for students, they say, Oh, you know, everyone tells students to just do something you're passionate about, right? Like, just follow your heart. It's such a generic advice that a lot of students receive, but so many students are like, Oh, yeah, well, I'm passionate about the environment. And it's kind of like this vague concept that they haven't really delved into that file, or they haven't really felt that visceral or emotional reaction to making a difference in the environment. So the passion, it's more, it's more of an interest phase, rather than a passion. So what caused you to develop a drive and like an intense passion for this particular project? Is that the helping people who are visually impaired? Is it the entrepreneurship side? Is that the kind of idea of building a business in high school like what gets you out of bed and says, yep, this is the thing that I am really super excited to be doing every single day. 13:21 Yeah, well, it's pretty much the simple logic that the fact that there are 250 million visually impaired individuals, which virtually have no hope of navigation, in a very, like generic sense, for just like an average individual, how they would navigate, they do not have that luxury. So really, the fact that there that I put it into my mentality that like there are 250 million people out there who need this device. So getting that gang my passion into that key area is like understanding the fact that what would I do day in and day out? If I had unlimited time, unlimited resources, what would I be doing, and really just, it would be doing what I'm doing now. So that's working on ik, and really developing these devices out, is something that really drives me. So creating something which is better for humankind in the long run is something which is truly inspiring for me. And if I had to give advice to general students, when it comes to finding their passion, it would probably be to imagine a scenario where, again, you have unlimited resources, unlimited time, what would you do? What problem or what area would you be working on, day in and day out? Imagine if you could regenerate automatically without any sleep, what will you do day in and day out? And go ahead and attempt to do it and see if you like it? I create like a shortlist of what you think would those top five things be and then go out there and do it and narrow it down to maybe one or two and pursue those and then eventually just go down to one. Podcast Host 14:47 Exactly. Well, yeah, process of elimination, right? Well, I think it's super interesting, though, that you have obviously addressed a number of large I'm going to guess knowledge gaps along the way, right. You've got you know what you learn at school. And I'm sure there's some students listening to this been like, did he learn how to like soldeu stuff and buy stuff off of Amazon and create a company and hard code these things? Did you learn all that at school? Or do you learn a lot of it outside of school? Neil 15:13 So I would think, first of all, all the engineering stuff I had to learn outside of school, because pretty much I would have to wait until maybe University until I got into that hardcore engineering principles there. And additionally, coding and stuff, they don't teach you in school. So I had to learn coding, self taught myself how to do coding and everything. And yeah, so really, like outside of school, most of my learning was done, when it came to, you know, the physics aspect of the device, the mechanistic principles behind why the device really works. And the software engineering portion, the coding portion, the computer science portion, all that was done pretty much through my own passion, and like really learning that, and self teaching myself, what I would say that school really helped me in was an English class. So and art class, actually those two classes really helped. Which is, which is something that Podcast Host 16:03 Surprises people. Yes, I could imagine. Yeah, Neil 16:06 yeah, exactly. And here in Canada, we also have to take like these course electives. And one of the like, the most popular one is Introduction to Business. So I also took that and all those courses, they're they're also like very language heavy. And like a bit arts focus, if you could say, this is more like the application portion. But in terms of English and art, what do you really develop is the art of like, explaining to other people what you are working on? Yeah. And like pitching to investors and stuff like that really articulating your language of your thought process. And how you work is truly something that stems out of those English and art classes, art classes really help when it comes to marketing. There's a lot of science behind art. And if you're able to exploit that, when it comes to your marketing for your business, it has a huge advantage over your competitors. And additionally, when it comes to like the actual business principles, in Introduction to Business, I learned really a lot about just core basics. And the first principles when it comes to business. Because I never came from a business background. My parents never came from a business background, I was always more in terms of the science side. So science and math and engineering side. So like really coming into that business side was a was a true experience. Because at the end of the day, science and engineering and r&d is excellent. But if you cannot apply it to the real world, there is virtually no point in doing r&d. So that's one of the biggest eye openers for business that anybody can have. Podcast Host 17:33 So what were your go to resources when you were trying to self learn all of these things? I'm going to guess there was like a young Neil Mitra, who was on Google being like how to code right? You know? Is that where you started? Neil 17:46 Yeah, so really like my first coding experience, actually, I think it was like back in grade five. So we did have like, so the reason why I didn't say like any coding languages was taught because like, in grade five, they did teach us a bit of HTML. So HTML is a markup markup language that isn't necessarily a programming language, it's just to go very technical on that. But yeah, so really from HTML. In grade five, I didn't like it too much. But then grade six, I started like it. And then grade seven, I knew I had to learn some other stuff in order to do what I was trying to build. So my, my first major programming language was JavaScript. So learning the basics of it, and then going ahead and learning, literally jumping straight to C and c++, because those were really core computer science principles, a lot of algorithms or data structures. And I like those a bit more, because they were fun to do. And it wasn't so much of memorizing syntax as it was as like really understanding, like the problems more. And at the end of the day. That's what I required more when it came to creating algorithms, which were computationally efficient for my current startup and the current robotics portion of it. So really, from there just sort of exponentially started to learn Java on I started to learn Python, and all those other programming languages, all the major programming languages. And from there, I started building those Android apps and really like that the key source to all this was YouTube, and YouTube has like great free resources. And really, you can learn anything from YouTube, at least when it comes to computer science. You don't necessarily need to even go to like computer science boot camp or anything like that. You don't have to pay for anything. YouTube has tons of great resources. They're like World Class instructors teaching there for free, and I would highly recommend anybody if they don't know where to start. Just do a simple YouTube search and you will find like a perfect choice and stick to that tutorial. The hardest thing about any learning anything new is sticking to it. You'll be really excited at first but then halfway down, like you're probably get demotivated, do not lose that momentum. Keep on going through, keep on learning it. And I promise you won't regret it. At the end of the day. Podcast Host 19:47 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's the real challenge, right? When you ever learn something new and then it's hard and then you don't want to let it anymore because it's hard, but I guess when you know where it's going to be used with the applicant. They're all that's when it can be like that motivation to keep you learning, which is really good. Yeah, it seems like coding is like the new superpower in terms of like talking about superpowers, again, for young tech startups, how important has it been for you to kind of get a solid base in coding and computer science? Neil 20:20 Yes. So coding is very important. When it comes to like when it comes to deep tech, so really, our our startups up in itself as a hard tech startup. And we have a deep tech component, when we're like implementing this AI software stuff like that's really when it comes to the software engineering side, if you want to run something, you have no code. And you can have like other people besides like, the initial startup founder to begin with, who who knows code or like, you can have other people who do know code and make them your technical co founder, because at the end of the day, like, sometimes there might be a time constraint. And if you're going to build a startup, in my opinion, it should be something which is really r&d intensive, because those startups are the ones that really innovate. And creating something like, besides just software is truly something that the world requires right now. So biotech industry is a great example of it, it's very hard, it's very hard to get something out to the market in the biotech industry, because of its hard r&d that is required. So really, to innovate, really, to survive in the competition, you have to create something which is innovative. And essentially, you were putting science into action. There. So you're combining science and engineering with entrepreneurship, and making it happen. Podcast Host 21:31 So but wouldn't it app be innovative? Like, do you need to create something like an actual product, something tangible that you can hold? For it to be considered our end date? Neil 21:42 Yeah, I mean, like, it depends on what you're actually building, right. So if if your company aims to build like, you know, another, like AI company, which is able to analyze marketing records, or is able to analyze consumer preferences, there's tons of competition out there, there is no way that you can, like, even get an addressable market size, for that type of company anymore. It's almost become like a small business, those type of startups, if I'm being like, realistic about it, and, and VCs, they always keep on turning down software startups, because of that reason, there are a couple of which survive, because they're actually good. And they actually have like, reasonable traction. And if you're going to create a software startup company, you have to have traction. And speaking to a lot of investors speaking to a lot of advisors, they've also mentioned this, like without traction, a software startup company is or like any startup company is essentially worthless. And for startups, for software startups, especially they need that traction, they need to have daily active users, they need to have even better like, possibly revenue already. So that that's something that really is required for a software startup. But there is also you can have a hard tech component when it comes to the softer side. So for example, like if you've watched, like the famous show Silicon Valley, if you're trying to create something like lossless compression algorithms, or anything, which is to do with very computationally complex projects, such as blockchain, and decentralized machine learning, or anything like that, then that would be considered something which is, you know, has a high degree of engineering difficulty. But like, the best way to assess it is that if it's there on the market, what a lot of people purchase that product? And if the answer to that is yes, then go out there and build it. But probably that solution is going to be very difficult to solve. Because at the end of the day, if a solution is that great, somebody else has to be doing it already. So that that's what it looks like the time crunches there, especially when it comes to a software related journal. Podcast Host 23:42 Yeah. So what I'm getting from what you're saying there is that like, if you have got the two parts in front of you of r&d, or creating something like a robot, or going down the path of purely software development, you're probably much more likely to go forth with the robot just because there's not as much competition and like it's so I think there's so many people building apps because it sounds I guess, low cost, I don't really know, I've never built an app myself. But essentially, like you could code an app yourself and put it out in the marketplace. And hopefully it gets picked up. But a lot of them as you say don't and just don't get any traction and they disappear. Whereas if you've got a robot that you're working on, that's a true innovation that can really revolutionize how people live. That's when you're you've got the you hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Neil 24:29 Yeah, absolutely. And it's important to have traction both ways. Like, really, for hard tech startups such as ours, one of the key like metrics is having institutional partnerships and letter of intense. So having ello eyes or Letter of Intent really helps create like a attraction value against the dollar amount to potentially how many people want to purchase it. So like traction is important both ways. But especially for hard tech, the application to the bigger world might be much much greater in the long term than that of software. Podcast Host 24:59 Right. So when you Letter of Intent, don't really know that. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing. It's probably here in Australia too. But can you explain to our listeners a little bit more about what exactly that is? And it sounds a little bit like a GoFundMe page, right? Or like a, you know, like Kickstarter or something like that, where you've created a product, and you're asking people to pre purchase the product. But you're saying like, from an organizational standpoint, it's more of like a letter of intent. Neil 25:24 Yeah, exactly. But essentially, for letter of intent, when it comes to our process, like a letter of intent is essentially like a non legally binding document. So it's non binding. However, investors really like ello eyes, because it gives a sort of, it gives almost like a psychological sort of factor to the individual who is signing that Li, that they want to purchase it. So it's giving your intent that, okay, I want to purchase this device, if it's available in the market, and this date, or whatever. And especially if you get institutions on board, institutions, usually always keep their promises. So that increases your valuation. And a good example of this is the company called boom, supersonic. So they are a startup company, which is developing supersonic airplanes, and commercially available supersonic airplanes. And they had their first prototype as a cardboard prototype. And they were able to get ello eyes from Boeing, Airbus and all these huge players. And that really skyrocketed their evaluation and they were able to close like over 10s of millions of dollars funding, because they had those ello eyes. So ello eyes are really important for a hard tech startup, because it validates that people actually want if it's on the market, Podcast Host 26:37 right? So okay, there's a student sitting out there somewhere who's like, okay, Neil's obviously had a couple of decision very, very important decision processes, like forks in the road, so to speak. Yeah. Is there any, like two or three momentous forks in the road that you've had? And what were your choices in that moment? And why did you choose what you chose? Neil 26:58 Yeah, so the biggest part was participating in science fair. So that's one of the first major one because without it, I don't think I Kane would have really existed. Because with that, like it, it really got my inner passion starting to work when it came to the field of biotech. And I was the major one, the second major one was definitely like, it was entering that competition, entering MIT launch x. So over here in Waterloo, they had a chapter here in Waterloo, and it was pretty much this club called flow boat, which was high schools, which was like Waterloo, his first high school startup accelerator. And it was like their second year running it. So I decided to join it. And they were running their MIT launch program for the second year, we were lucky enough to make it as previously mentioned. So that was like our, one of the biggest moments because we got so many investor leads through that. And probably like, the third biggest is probably like, having a like building that network. So having the skill of communication and having the skill of networking, which is a huge part of getting in contact with individuals that have leads to other investors, and ensuring the fact that your company gets like Podcast Host 28:06 funded into future rounds, and make sure that you have like a clientele base is also very important. You definitely could be that kind of solo scientist sitting in the room, you know, soldering couple things, tapping away at code, and still creating a great robot, but a robot that might not actually get to anyone, because there's no money or backing or network. So that is your decision. You're like, Okay, I need to open my project to the world and really put myself out there. What was your process for preparing yourself to do that kind of thing, right? Because you obviously had the passion and the drive, but then learning how to, as you said, you know, English class was perhaps helpful for this, right? Where you have to kind of say, all right, I've done all the coding, and I've done all the soldering and whatnot. But people probably aren't that interested in that. They want to know, the actual benefit to people who are visually impaired. They want to know how much it's going to cost. They want to know, obstacle avoidance, all these kinds of things. Right. So what was that whole process like for you, when you were first starting to pitch it to different people? And I'm sure they were throwing questions at you. They were like, Oh, damn, I haven't really thought about that yet. Like, that must have been a pretty intimidating process and have quite a steep learning curve. Neil 29:14 Yeah, so really, like that portion start to happen right after like, we won that competition and MIT lunch x. So immediately after that, I like I would recommend anybody to read books. So the best way to get good at business to get good at networking is to read books. So the first book that I read in that business world, was How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. amazing book. Yeah, an absolutely amazing book. And I recommend it to anyone. It teaches you the art of networking, and it's really beneficial, especially when you talk to investors and stuff like that. And the second part, the second book that I read was Pitch Perfect. So the book based on like how to pitch to investors, I forget the author's name, but it's a really, really good book, especially if you want to know how to pitch presentations. And that book is great because like, it will help you a lot an investor pitches and making sure that the investor gets what we're talking about. And that I started to read, it went down to like the hardcore economic basis, if you will. So I started reading Rich Dad, Poor Dad, like in around when I was in great tech, so it wasn't too long ago. And I also read one up on Wall Street by Peter Lynch, which is an excellent book, if you were interested in terms of the stock market, understanding, like how the, like, the market works, really. And then I read zero to one by Peter teal, which is a phenomenal book, it pretty much goes to the entire process of understanding if your company is going to be like the next big tech really like you making sure that your company becomes successful in the future, and assessing that if your startup idea is really worth pursuing. So definitely recommend zero to one by Peter teal to anyone. And another book, just to add into the business stuff is deep work by Cal Newport, that's a great book in terms of productivity, if you ever need motivation, or anything like that, I read that book, and really, just through reading books is probably like the only, I would say, fastest and cheapest way to learn business really well is by you know, reading books, and there's tons of like, free resources that you can get or even go to your local library and borrow those books from the library and read them and you will be able to understand really the side basics of business, which a lot of people a lot of startup founders aren't aware of. And if you're aware of that, investors will appreciate you way, way more than any other founder. So that's something to keep in mind. Podcast Host 31:40 Yeah, yeah. Well, take me to, I guess one of your latest investment pitches where you're talking to VCs as a 16 year old, that must be interesting process, right? where you're like, you know, you're obviously come across very articulate, and you know, your stuff. But I'm sure that there is that kind of like, Oh, this kid's only 16 type of thing, you know, when you go into the meeting, so yeah, what is that whole scenario? Like? How does that typical meeting playout? Neil 32:08 Yes. So really, when it comes to an investor meeting, like you have to be prepared, you have to know in and out of your device, you have to know in and out every competition? If you fail, one question, there are going to be there's going to have like doubts being raised all over the place. So you have to know what you're talking about. Because at the end of the day, like think about it, if you yourself, had your own hard earned money, would you invest it into the thing that you're building? Yeah. And what do you invest it into the pitch that you just did that, like you just hypothetically gave to yourself. So really, putting yourself into that scenario helps you create really good pitches. And it's a really iterative process to get a perfect pitch done. But once you have that perfect pitch, or like a pitch, which is close to perfection, no page is absolutely perfect. But making sure that it goes to that point of perfection, you have something ground solid done. And and for me really hitting those questions really hard in terms of the technical knowledge. At the same time, the business knowledge was something that really I would say, quote, unquote, impressed a lot of these VCs and angel investors, and all that's really impressing them is something that is a key point to keep in mind. And when it came to the issue of my age, like when I'm 16 years old, currently in high school is like I would say, if you have already, like filed so many patents of non provisional patents and all that, and you've invested so much time and energy already, and you've like taken it from a very small, like starting point to what it is now and really pursuing it, investors will see that. So it doesn't really matter in your age, but you have to like you have to like it, like you can't do entrepreneurship for the sake of getting into a university or you can't do entrepreneurship for just the sake of making money, or anything like that, like you have to really like it. Otherwise VCs or angel investors, they won't invest in you. because nobody's just going to give money to a person who just wants to go to university with a startup or just wants to make more money. Nobody's gonna give you money for that. So you really have to like it. Podcast Host 34:02 And when you're going to a VC or an angel investor how much I don't know if you can tell me this but how much are you generally asking for? Is it kind of like a shark tank scenario where you go in there and give them your pitch? And you know, say I am offering 5% of my company for this amount of money that type of thing or like what's the kind of deal you trying to broker? Neil 34:22 Yeah, so I unfortunately cannot like get the exact full disclosure. Podcast Host 34:26 Yeah, rough kind of estimates. Neil 34:30 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So like our funding rounds like currently seed funding rounds ready startup goes from around 50 K to like 100 K and us figures to raise their initial round. So we have raised our initial round, then like a series A which is right after this. The seed round can range between anywhere between like one to 10 to $15 million. When it comes to series A and Series B can can be anywhere between 20 to 30 million. Series C can be anywhere between 40 to 50. And series D is like four series C Series D is like anywhere between like 70 to $100 million plus in funding. But obviously that's like, once you have all the traction and stuff, do you only go to Series B, C, and D and so forth till IPO? So that's when you go on to the stock market. But yeah, like, really, when it comes to those investor pitches, there are two things that have to keep in mind one, which is the amount of investment amount that you want. And two, what is your post money valuation? So in Shark Tank, they say that, oh, give me $100,000 for I don't know, 1%? Yeah, this company, right? What you would say in investor pitch would be like $100,000, at a $10 million post money valuation. So $100,000, a $10 million post money valuation basically means that once they've invested that $100,000, your company is valued at $10 million. So if you do $100,000, divided by 10 million, you get your 1%. So really, through that, like that's what generally, what people do, when it comes to like that investor meetings, so just having that initial funding amount, and then your post money valuation, which is essentially like, just like restating that, oh, I want $100,000 for 1% of my startup. So yeah, in terms of investor pitches, you just really need to know what you're talking about, be prepared, and be likable. That's a huge part of it, just be really likable. And a lot of it when it comes to the early seed stage, when you don't have too much traction. It's a lot investors in vest a lot based on your emotions, if they like the founder or not, is the person something that they would love to work with? And all those emotional factors really run around? So like really targeting those emotional factors is really important, especially in the seed stage. Podcast Host 36:46 What do you think students should have lined up prior to reaching out to VCs or angel investors? Like, should they have a registered company? Should they have a patent? Should they have like, a pitch? You know, ready to go? Exactly? well rehearsed? And we'll practice it, can you give them like a couple of tips to avoid? I'm sure I'm sure there was probably, I don't know, you might want to share a little bit of an insight into perhaps a pitch that didn't go so well. Perhaps the lessons you learned from that, and what other students might be able to avoid if they were going, you know, down this path Neil 37:19 as well. Yeah, so like know your deck very well, like the pitch deck that you're gonna present. So what time which happened was a funny thing that happened, like one of the worst pitches that that I ever gave for EyeCane back when we were trying to raise our seed funding round was that, like, we recently updated a pitch deck. And we finished the update, literally 10 minutes before an investor meeting. So it was like, I didn't have enough time to rehearse it. So it wasn't the finest fish that ever gave. So having that rehearsal done, is very, very important. Like, yes, extremely important to having that we are still done. And make sure you have to some degree proof that you are working on it. Essentially, don't be like piranhas. That's Yes, advice. Podcast Host 38:04 I just listened. I just listened to bad blood actually the audible so yeah, there knows. If you're interested in VCs and startups, that kind of thing. Yeah, bad bloods a very interesting book to read or listen to. But yes, make sure that you're actually producing something that can be reproducible, and that you can sell to market, which they didn't really have. So that's good advice. That's tip number two, is there any other tips that you give, Neil 38:26 besides like creating something. So that's like creating something would be like having those partnerships having those like agreements and those pre orders and having the patent setup and stuff like that, showing that you've really worked on creating your initial prototype, and people want it and really like, the third part is just having having a likeability. So be charismatic, be really like, don't be super professional, try to make your pitch like a conversation. And in most cases, sometimes you've pitched without any pitch decks. And it worked really well, like the investor, they first did, like our first major investor for our seed round. So like the current investors invested in us, the current venture capital, firm, solid growth, LLC, we pitched them on the phone. And that was our first meeting. So we had no slide deck, nothing. It was just me talking. And my team just like listening and answering a couple of questions. And they have wanted a second phone meeting. And then finally a third one, which is where they said they want to do that. So that like, we never really had to even show our pitch deck for the investor that actually invested in us. Right. So that's the very funny part about raising your initial round. A lot of it is showing off your likability factor showing that you're really passionate about what you do, because that is when investors will invest. Because at the end of the day, if you're not honest with yourself as to why you're doing it, you cannot show that same level of honesty to others. So that is why it's very important to make sure that you have that passion. Podcast Host 39:51 Yeah, I know. Enthusiasm is priceless commodity, particularly in this kind of industry. And I, I think I think in particularly in r&d and tech startup Age isn't as much of a factor in some respects, like, as long as they say that you're capable that you know your stuff, and that you're innovating. They're like, okay, you're 16. Who cares? Let's get to the numbers of what's actually happening here and how we can invest in the product, right? Neil 40:16 Yeah, absolutely. Like, at the end of the day, VCs and angel investors, they don't care what your ages, as long as they can see an opportunity, they'll judge like a 20 year old, or like a 30 year old with an MBA from Harvard, as much as they'll judge a 16 year old is very, very unbiased. They just look at the business. And that's it. Podcast Host 40:34 Yep. And in terms of like, finding these investors and finding Angel funds, do you just kind of like Google investment funds nearby? And kind of like, I don't know, this is what I would probably do. If I was trying to find investments. I know you got a great network from being part of MIT and Jags. And I'm sure it's like, primarily referral based. But is there sometimes the odd cold email or like cold call and be like, hey, look, I've got a new great invention that I'm working on. I've had some patents done. Would I be able to pitch to you guys sometime next week? Or, you know, what's the process to getting those meetings happening? Neil 41:08 Yeah, so like, ironically, the thing is, like, for the investors that also like, that'd be fun, Miss Jen invested us. They weren't from any other referral or any investor lead that we previously had, we were just like searching and hunting through. Like really a Google, Google is not like the finest place to start. It's best if you start building out that network. But we were just searching for like this consultancy and like these angel investment funds and all of these areas, and we came across a consultancy firm and Ben like we just had to cold email them. And it worked. So cold emailing isn't a bad idea at all, especially when you're but be good at cold emailing have some really good practices when it comes to cold emailing, there's great articles online, that you can read all about cold emailing. And that's frankly, where we also learned it from. And it works cold emailing sometimes works like occasionally, like you'll probably have a 25% success rate on average, if you're really good at it. And I don't say that to demotivate anyone, I'm sure. Like, if you're willing to learn it, you can definitely do it. Podcast Host 42:06 There's nothing that you can't learn. It's interesting what you're looking at cold emailing as like a learned skill, right? It's not just finding the email and just typing away and sending anything, right like there's a certain formula and a certain art to sending a very, very good cold email that tries to elicit a response. Because the end of the day, like that's all you wanted to get as a response. And that starts a conversation. But I think you might have a couple of tips, which is like, keep it short and sweet. Try and set up phone conversation, like a pretty simple call to action, right? Those kinds of things can make a pretty solid cold email. But certainly like as you said, there's a lot of resources out there. So students should before blasting VCs and angel investors with all these cold emails, take the time to learn what a good email actually looks like. Can you talk to me about how the team grew? And how long they've been involved? Is it mainly students? Do you have some adults involved and how you got them on board? Neil 42:59 Yeah, so our entire like team initially started off like full of high school students. So six high school students like starting from late 2018, we had a lot of team changes. In fact, from that original team, only one person still remains from that very original team, who's currently in University at the time, he was in grade 11. So now he's in university. And he's currently studying Software Engineering at the University of Waterloo. And he's a great, he's our chief technology officer in software engineering. And he's a great person, his name is Eric. Shout out to him. And he's a great guy. And he's a really smart engineer. And yeah, so like, I work with him a lot in terms of the software side, and implementing everything in in our, in our software, transfer layers and stuff like that. And right now, our team consists of five other students. So snake Shah, who's our chief development officer, Cynthia Murphy, who's our chief financial officer. And we also have shift Patel, who's our chief technology officer. In our hardware design. We have Richard Wang, who's our chief marketing officer. And we also have REM Betty who's also our co Chief Marketing Officer, and their grades go from grade 12, which is Snee grade 11, who's myself, Richard, and Schiff, and Sophia and a TED, which is Aryan. So we have a pretty diverse range of people who are working on the problem. And they're quite motivated to solve the problem that we're aiming. So Podcast Host 44:25 there must be times where people kind of doubt themselves or is there none of that? Do people just have like, complete confidence in themselves in the product in the team and they're like, ah, regardless, we can make a difference to the world. Neil 44:38 I think like in a perfect scenario, like you should always have that mindset that regardless of your age, you can still do it. But obviously, like, if a setback comes you have to remember why you're doing it in the first place. Like you have to look back at like really just calm down your nerves and think on a logical basis of why you're doing it. And business is like a huge thing which is always repeated. Don't let emotions run you Always make sure that your logic always really operates you are more than your emotions do. So that's something to keep in mind, when it comes to business, I'm not gonna say entrepreneurship is to really have that mindset in place, think logically, don't go on to like a sort of unproductive Street, just because something isn't working, you should try to solve that problem. And at the end of the day, like, there will always be harder problems to solve. So always realize the fact that problem that you have cannot be the hardest problem that you are currently facing, there will always be a harder and harder and harder challenge. And simply accepting the fact that there is no perfect result is something to keep in mind. When it comes to business. Like there's no perfect result in terms of like an engineering problem, it will obviously pop up once again, and again and again. And there will always be improvements to be made. Podcast Host 45:51 That's good advice. Now, besides the books and your experiences in different competitions, I'm still going to talk about in my table objects, we're going to get to that eventually. But I'm interested in who your mentors are who the people around you where that might be, I don't know, I don't want to be age discriminatory or keep talking about it. But I'm sure there was a couple people who were, you know, maybe 1020 years, your senior, perhaps your parents, teachers, other people who have been entrepreneurs before an entrepreneurship community. Like Yeah, who did you kind of go to for advice during this whole process that you were starting a business and, you know, pitching to investors and that kind of thing? Neil 46:27 Yeah, so I never really had like it as a reason I should not my parents are never into, like, they're not interested, like the business side. My, my dad's like, my dad's a professor at the University of Waterloo. And he's very much in terms of like the literally like in the sense of mechanical engineering and all that area. So I got, like, advice in terms of the r&d portion, I understood how to make R&D very well, because from a very young age, like beginning from like, grade three, grade four, I started doing like all the hardcore, mechanical engineering principle stuff, yes. And all that and learning how to apply, like really just the end of the day, it's pretty basic math, until you start getting into the calculus stuff, which I'm not going to go into too much. But, yeah, like, really had that base already there. So I knew I could do the science work and everything like that. But the business side of it, I didn't know too much. So really just networking and outreaching. And just simply ask questions, because people know where you are, as a starting entrepreneur, people know that you need to build that network. And the right people will always be open to doing that for you. But there'll be open to help you, they'll be open to connect you to leads obviously have to keep in mind that people are busy, and they won't respond to your emails 100% of the time. But yeah, like keep that in terms of mind. That to reach out to people, you have to be likeable. And you have to build that network for an early age. So for me, it was really just participating in MIT launch x, getting in contact with those mentors, attending events is a huge part. So obviously now during COVID-19, once this pandemic ends, I would highly recommend entrepreneurs to go out and network at these networking events at huge conferences and get in contact with a lot of people friend network as much as you can, because you'll start to meet many great people who really want to help you. Podcast Host 48:14 Yeah, absolutely. Well, MIT Launch X. Let's talk about it. Talk me through that experience. How you prepared you were finalists, did you win anything at the competition? or? Neil 48:24 Yeah, so the competition is pretty much like if you become finalists, you get a priceless asset, which is like all these investor connections, and everything like that. And I'd recommend like, especially for like really hard tech startups, it's very worth it. Because most of the investors there and leads there are like pure heart tech investors. So like hardcore microbiology, startups, or material science startups, they should go ahead and like really, really participate in that. Because like those investors Podcast Host 48:50 Not like a software app taught kind of startup, it's more for people who are creating things. Neil 48:54 Yeah, for sure. But if you are trying to do software, like I know for a fact that the competition is much more like hardcore there, like I believe, out of the 20 startups that were finalists, I think there's like only three or four, which were actually like software based. So it's definitely much more difficult to take the software because the investors they also know that software is becoming riskier and riskier each day, but a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, and really the experience of like the launch x, I'd recommend it to anybody back then, like we participated in MIT launch x clubs, which is the global competition. Unfortunately, MIT logics clubs as they no longer have that competition anymore, but MIT law Jax is still running. So that's like now that I think they made it into a summer program. So you pretty much create a startup and you can spin off a startup from there almost like an incubator program. There's a demand for high school students. So I would definitely recommend anybody do it. It's a great learning experience. And if you're interested in entrepreneurship, Podcast Host 49:52 do it for sure. So in terms of competing in the actual competition side of things, what are they wanting to say is it just like pitch deck and that kind of Shark Tank style, or is it more in depth, they want to see your numbers or that kind of stuff as well. Neil 50:07 So really, you have to go in there like an investor pitch. So you have to show your prototype, you have to show like your numbers and everything NSH like isn't in a stadium, so, or like not in a stadium, but like in a large lecture hall. And there's about 100 to 150 people that you're pitching to. So don't let your nerves get on you. Yes, huge part and making sure that you have that public speaking skill. And be fearless when you're on on the actual stage itself is something to keep in mind. So constantly rehearse, you can never get enough practice. So keep on practicing and practicing and practicing, and do really good practicing, and make sure you're good at it. And then of that, once you feel that you're satisfied, you know that it's good, then you can make sure that any investor invest in, in that deck. Because if you yourself intrinsically know, in your soul, at that pitch, what you're doing is true, anybody will go ahead and invest in it eventually. So that's something to really keep in mind to keep your mindset up there is you have to be satisfied with your own work that you create. Podcast Host 51:11 Yeah, so pretty much you are going to get to the finals. If you are a like a brilliant speaker, be you have a great pitch deck, see you have a great prototype. And they like they can see that your product is meeting a need or solving a problem like actually realistically has application in the real world. Neil 51:30 That's the really the final pitch that you have to do. So once you're a global finalists, when you're pitching at MIT's literally like that, but like submitting to MIT Launch X as well, you have to make a five minute video pitch. So we actually really good in terms of video pitching as well. So yeah, again, same skills apply, you have to show off your prototype, you have to show your numbers, you have to show that you're a great speaker. And if you don't do that, like unfortunately, you will get selected. Podcast Host 51:54 So it seems like there's a lot of different things. I mean, it's such an interesting competition, right? Because there's no right or wrong answer. Like it's purely based on the skill set. And the product and every everyone's going to have very different products, right. Like you're they're addressing, you know, product vision impaired, and there's probably people out there who also, you know, doing completely something different to what you're doing. And yet the judges, they are trying to compare the two even though they're apples and oranges in terms of like, actual problem that they're trying to solve. So is there any, like one or two tips that you would give to students who are interested in something like Mr. Table objects, or a similar type of competition, obviously, like the public speaking side is super, super important. The video pitching side super, super important, but is there any kind of message or tip that you think students should be including in their presentations that would help elevate their project? Neil 52:44 I would say like really read the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yes, like tynax, any presentation, any pitch deck or anything like that? And really just practice those by two best advices that I can give anyone? Yep, there's no shortcut way. There's only a lot going on. Yep. Which is just hardcore practice. There's no secret trick or anything. Everybody follows the same path. You have to work smart. And you have to work hard. Podcast Host 53:10 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So my next question is, how do you balance all this with school? Are you running the economics classes now? Where you are running the tech classes? Or, you know, how are you making this all work alongside your schoolwork? Neil 53:26 Well, firstly, I wish I was running the classes in person. Yeah, but yeah, it's pretty good. So far, like I'm currently studying for my AP exams. And yeah, because like, I really like taking exams a test. Like for me, I find tests to be a perfect way to show up what you know. And really, like, understand, and realize the fact that if you know what you're talking about, and if you know, like, these things, which are quite important, at the end of the day, I feel like school students, they have a very negative outlook, when it comes to tests and quizzes and stuff like that, I treated those as positive. And having that positive mentality is very important. Otherwise, you simply won't be able to like, balance all these things. So one thing that helps is you have to have a passion for like your entrepreneurship side. And whatever thing you're getting in terms of your extracurriculars, and you also have a passion for school, you pretty much really have to be at or about learning new things. And that's not a bad thing. A really just having that passion is very important. And having the skill to talk to people is also very important. Podcast Host 54:31 100% and what's next for you? What's the future hold for Neil as well as Metro biotechs and ik and and everything like, I'm sure you've got next steps planned out already. Neil 54:42 Yeah. So Mitra Biotechnologies is currently like another startup that I'm founding and that one like it's currently in stealth mode, so I can't reveal too much about it. But it's to do with medical diagnostics. And that one's like really hardcore, really strong microbiology, material science area, and that It's very exciting. So really, for me, I would say the future is like, what expect happens to EyeCane is that we're most likely going to like after we have sold our products, which have CRB products and stuff like that, we hope to sell the company eventually, to a larger player who can really, really develop out our company. Because at the end of the day, what we're developing requires a high capital cost and high r&d and high manufacturing costs, and high maintenance. So through that system, we need somebody who has those in built resources already. Because at the end of the day, in the long term, it does become like a low maintenance job. But you need that very high, almost like 100 $250 million total in funding to have those factories, jobs and supply chains built up, so probably slotted to some company, which already has that set up and ensure that they are able to sell it. And at the end of the day, get it into the hands of the visually impaired all across the world. That's what's going for EyeCane what I see in the next two or three years. And for Mitra Biotechnologies I don't know too much. It's too early to tell right now. But I'll definitely keep you updated. Podcast Host 56:08 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think students would love to follow along with your story. And these the best place to do that LinkedIn. Neil 56:14 Yeah. So LinkedIn, I also have Twitter. My my Twitter ad is pretty much Neil neitra underscore. Yeah, those are probably the best places to reach out to me to network with me. And yes, but Podcast Host 56:24 awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Neil, for joining the top of the class. It's been a fascinating insight into the world of a 16 year old pitching devices, making a massive difference in the area of biomedical technology and hopefully helping vision impaired people around the world. And I'm sure you're going to go on to do some pretty awesome things. So thanks so much for joining us, and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

Ep #22 Getting a Scholarship to Oxford and the Importance of the Arts

🗓 DEC 30, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with Faith Lee, who will soon be heading to Oxford on the prestigious Singapore based PSC open scholarship, Faith studied at the Singapore School of the Arts. And she talks about how she aims to blend her love for art in experimental psychology at Oxford. And of course, Faith also shares her advice for aspiring UK University Africans. Let's chat with Faith Lee. Welcome to the show Faith, it's awesome to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Faith 00:50 So yeah, I'm Faith. And I'm currently living on a tropical island in Singapore. Last year, I graduated from the School of the Arts, having specialized in Visual Arts. And I suppose I'm someone who has quite a big passion for both the arts, creativity and people. And I'm currently on a gap year. Next year, I'll be flying over to the UK to go study experimental psychology Oxford scholarship. Awesome. So how old are you now? I'm 1919 years old. So you're just doing a gap year at the moment that you must be looking forward to get into the cool calm weather of well not necessarily calm the cool drizzly weather of Oxford next year, what are you looking forward to most about going to a university like that? Oh, I think one of them would be the collegiate life there. Because it will be such a different environment, Singapore, it's really going to be a whole new culture, new people, even new food and an environment. And I think I'm looking forward to seeing the kind of people they have the the teaching style, as well as because Oxford specializes so much in the tutorial system, which is something so unique about the program. Yeah. So I think that's something that I'm really looking forward to experiencing. Can we fly over? Yeah, I bet. Well, I hopefully, you know, the Coronavirus is not affecting your travel plans. Do you know what date at the moment you plan to head over? Or is it just like a month in general that you've got in mind? Tom starts October. So likely in September next year, I actually thought that I'll be flying over this year, and I was making plans like booking all the hotels and everything for the same home notice. And last night, I found out that because of the virus things got a bit complicated. And so last minute, I had to change my plan. So that was a bit of a letdown. Podcast Host 02:26 Oh, well, you'll get there eventually you get there. And then you'll have an amazing time. But for our listeners who don't know what the tutorial system is, can you explain that to them a little bit. Faith 02:35 So Oxford has mainly two different systems of teaching. One would be mass lectures. So those are the most standard or the middle, we have a bunch of students off on the same subject together, and then there'll be a lecture teacher. And on the other hand, is also the tutorial system. So that's a much more personalized small group setting. So usually, each target has about two to four students paired with one professor. And there will be someone who is an expert in their field. And they will really go have really in depth conversations beyond just normal lecture content. And that's where you can refresh your ideas, have good conversations and learn on a more personalized level. Podcast Host 03:12 Often those tutes led by someone who really knows what they're talking about in their field. So it's a really discussion based learning experience. And I've heard Oxford students say that it's the best and worst thing about studying at Oxford, because if you've done your homework, and you've done your readings, it's awesome. Like you can go in there and have an amazing discussion. But like, if you're not really feeling that well, and you try and go into that discussion group, it's not so good. Because you can get found out there's nowhere to hide when there's like three or four people, right, like you'll get found out pretty quickly. And while we're discussing all things Oxford, could you potentially give a few tips and advice on the application process and how you successfully gained admission? Faith 03:51 I think Oxford is really looking for things beyond just what you might score for IB or A-levels. Because there have been cases where students have gotten perfect score 45 for IB, but the school actually chose someone who got a lower score over them. And I think the thing that distinguishes such people is that ability to think critically. And I think something that is quite consoling to think off when you go for the interview is that the interviewers aren't really looking to see how much you know, the content itself. Rather, they're looking at your ability to think on the spot, because they know that you haven't had those years of study such that an undergraduate might have or a professor, but they're looking for that ability that you might have to consider is just something respectives have a logical and creative thinking and to evaluate evidence that they give you right on the spot. So I think it's a lot more of these soft skills that they're looking for, that will really stand you apart, rather than just a number on the people, you get an exam. It's a lot more of a holistic consideration. So I think that's something to consider. And I think another thing would be to keep in mind, what is your motive for applying to this particular University I think that's always something to be, that's something that's good to be conscious of. Because this awareness gives you so much more confidence when you actually do go stand before interviewers, or as you're writing your personal statement, because then you have this conviction that comes behind every single word that you see. And even if you might make mistakes, I'll say something accidental, you know where you're coming from. And that helps to give the sense of security and assurance, even as you talk to your interviewers. And, in fact, I think it's nice to think of the interview more of like, as a conversation. And I think that was something that I experienced in one of my interviews, which was really nice, because as you were talking, anybody involved more into just a discussion with me and the tutors rather than me feeling as if I was being interrogated or anything like that. So it made the whole process so much more enjoyable to think of it from their perspective. Podcast Host 05:53 Yeah. Do you think students can prepare for the interview? Faith 05:56 I think definitely, yeah. So while the tutors might not be looking for hard and fast on this, I think that being aware of what content is in your course, would definitely be helpful. So for me, before I went to my interview, I went online to go read up a lot more about psychology because I hadn't studied it in, in soda. And I also went up and read different research papers, like current research that was being done in the field. So I could kind of get a better idea of what experimental methods were out there. And how concepts were being used in the world, I suppose. So I think it was quite fortunate, because one of the articles that I was reading its content actually came up on the very day of the interview itself. And I just been reading about it a few hours before. So that was really fortunate. That was lucky. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So when I got posed that question, I was like, Wow, there you go. I read that just a couple hours before it was so apt. Podcast Host 06:51 Yeah, speaking to other students who have been admitted to Oxford, they say, like, try and read as much content as you can relevant to what you want to study. Because if you can draw on a couple of examples or anecdotes during your interview, then it will put you in a lot better standing than someone who's only, you know, studied the school content, and not really anything beyond that. But you're studying experimental psychology. What's that all about? Because I actually am not familiar with that degree. Faith 07:17 Okay. So experimental psychology, it covers different topics such as perception, cognition, neuroscience, developmental science. So it's really all these different aspects of human behavior. But we look at it from a very scientific standpoint, and I think the focus at Oxford is on actually conducting your own research and experiments as well. So it's not just the conceptual part while we actually get some hands on experience, which is a really nice part of the course. Podcast Host 07:43 Okay, so how many branches of psychology are there? Is that like, the main one that Oxford offers? Or are there a lot of other ones and you decided to go down the experimental route? Faith 07:54 So at Oxford, there's two main psychology focused ones. One would be et, which is experimental psychology. The other would be PBL, which is philosophy, psychology and linguistics. Yeah. Okay. So that one's a bit more diverse. Podcast Host 08:08 Yeah, right. Right. Right. Okay. I thought you were about to say, pp there. But that doesn't have much to do with psychology. That's politics, philosophy and economics. And so that ppl one was it? Faith 08:20 Yeah, PV das, or psychology, philosophy and linguistics? Podcast Host 08:24 Right. And how did you choose experimental psychology versus ppl? Faith 08:29 I think, because I'm both who really loves biology. I really like that science aspect of it. And so I felt that in EP we do to focus more on stuff like neuroscience, which is something that I really enjoy. And as far as the biological aspect of the brain, I think that PVR it also covers more of like the social dimension. So that's a bit more of a focus compared to EP Podcast Host 08:52 and what has given you that kind of background to be ready for something like studying AP, because listeners may not know this yet, but you have quite an extensive background in him. And you mentioned at the start, you graduated from the School of Fine Arts, is that right? Yeah. So you've got a background in arts. And when I think Fine Arts like, Look, don't get me wrong. I don't know a huge man about the arts and like the programs, not schools, but I tend to think it's like looking at old paintings and deciding what was the artist trying to say when they painted the hand this way versus this way? That type of thing? Like, was that your arts experience? And if not, please correct me. Faith 09:31 I think a question I get a lot when people hear that came from scarfy artists. Do you guys just study all day, every day? Right? Yeah. But actually, what we do is that arts is kind of like our RCC, like a specialization we do. But we also have academic subjects besides that, so I didn't have to go study like math, science English, like Chinese is like a language as well. So it's a whole range arts is kind of like our extra clinical subject that we do and we do a very heavy for Isn't it, but it's a lot more than just looking at dusty old paintings in a museum Podcast Host 10:04 Was there a bit of that though? Faith 10:06 We did do a bit of art history series and about Renaissance art. But they also had more of like a modern focus as well. So we learned all the way from like historical caveman style, to our modern art, like Dadaism surrealism. And we also had a lot of hands on work as well that we did in the studio, creating our own craft that one practice and putting into education, all the techniques that we've been learning over the years. Podcast Host 10:31 Well, I'm glad you've cleared that up for me and our audience, that it's not just looking at dusty old paintings all day, there must be a fairly significant proportion of those students who then go into arts related programs at university. What made you go down towards the psychology route more so? Faith 10:50 Well, I think that most of my life, I actually had thought that I was going on a purely Fine Arts route. And so when I was while I was doing that, becoming an artist, saying Fine Arts at a university level, but I was just thinking about it quite recently, like just last year itself. And I thought, considering things on a slightly more practical standpoint, because I think that in Singapore's art scene is still quite natural, and like, it's not as developed as other Western countries. And Singapore does focus a lot more on, I guess, the stem parts of education. And I felt, perhaps that I would want to go into something that was a bit more of Applied Arts rather than finance. So I started like searching a bit online, and talking to people about what kind of jobs were available. And something that I came across once either of you. And a few that was on, it really appealed to me, because it really projects the two things I love in life, which is like a passion for the arts as well as helping people. And I felt art therapy would do both of these. And because I already have an arts background, I felt that to complement that I should go ahead and study psychology. And it's something that I am really interested in at the same time. So everything just seemed to fall into place. And last year, I decided to shift like the course of what I was going for. Podcast Host 12:05 Awesome. So yeah, it's been a bit of a journey with I know art therapy is like very interesting field kind of emerging field. And psychology does, I guess relate to that, and it is an interesting fit. But you did mention that Singapore does have a very strong stem focus. And I think a lot of places around the world at that kind of high academic level. It's like the computer science, maths, science students, they're kind of celebrated, you know, all the parents are like you're doing the great thing, you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be an engineer, you're going to be, you know, computer scientists, whatever it might be, did you feel any pressure being at a fine art school to push the arts side of things aside, so you could focus on, you know, something other than just purely Fine Arts. Faith 12:49 I don't think that pressure ever was there. In my case, I think for one, I'm really glad that I have very supportive parents who don't have such a traditional mindset. And they really encouraged me to just go there and fulfill what I was interested in. And I think being in in soda, I was surrounded by so many like minded individuals who are also so talented at what they did. And just going and watching my friends performances and showcases and exhibitions, I think we really could feed off this passion from one another. And it was such a lovely community to be in such that we really encourage one another's passions and interests. And I think that school also helped to balance between like the arts and our other academic subjects. So they had a heavy focus on both of them. They didn't push one of them aside to the detriment of the other, but they really encouraged us to do both our academy. And in parallel, it really helps me in my own focus, as the first thing is all. Podcast Host 13:43 What advice would you give to students who are having to make that decision or feel as though they have to make that decision between doing the thing they love, which might be the art versus doing the thing that everybody around them is telling them will be the future of work? Right? Like, it's interesting, from your perspective that it sounds as if you had a very supportive community at the fine art school. So going down that track of of studying the arts would have still been really supportive, because there was still a really great community. But I think a lot of kids who are not at a dedicated at school might love Fine Arts might love music might love the kind of performance side of things, but at the same time might feel that everyone else at the school is going into either finance or going into STEM fields and not really pursuing that interest in the arts. I think it's interesting from your perspective that you are able to see the arts having a place in another area like therapy, right? So you're able to see a career path in that. But what advice would you give to students who are in that situation or kind of like I'm looking at picking my subjects for next year, I'm looking at trying to specialize in particular path in my school, and it just doesn't feel as though the arts is the place where I should be despite that being my passion Faith 15:00 I think there are several things to consider here. So one would be the dilemma between choosing something that you might consider more practical for something that you're passionate in. I think one thing that obsessions could keep in mind is that if you were to actually pursue something that's your passion, if you encounter any challenges along the way, are difficulties, because of the underlying passion that is driving you, you're not likely to give up as easily as if you were to consider another fuel that you weren't as interested in, but just felt pressured to go into. Because in the long run, it's more likely that you're going to be burning out if you don't have that intrinsic drive that is fueling you throughout your whole journey. On the other hand, also known as this practicality you think of such as like how sustainable your job would be in the future, and what that career progression could be like. So maybe another thing they could consider is, if they do have a passion for the arts, it's not necessarily that that passion has to become the mean career. In fact, it's something that can be pursued, really, in your own time as a hobby, or as like a side passion. You could have like a day job, but still keep up this passion alongside in parallel. Podcast Host 16:06 Yeah, I think it's worth considering for students not to feel as though pursuing one area means you have to give up something that you love. Now, you can still do both. I think that's really good. Is there any particular skills that you learned from your fine art school that you think will be really applicable to Experimental Psychology at Oxford? Hmm, Faith 16:25 is it being able to think in a creative way, and watch a problem or experiment from various perspectives would be really useful? Because what we did in my fine art school astragal was very project based. So usually, we were given like a certain theme, and based on that theme, good springboard, and come up with our own concept. and visualize exactly what what we wanted to convey or create, and what was the message that you wanted to bring out there to the audience. And you know, having that general theme, it's really so broad, you can approach it from so many various perspectives. And I think a skill that is learned from there is having this really kind of open minded thinking of approaching this problem that you're given, and looking at it from as many multiple perspectives as you possibly can. And from there, slowly reading out exactly, and clarifying what path you want to take to move forward. So I guess a model that I kind of learned along the way, was this diverging and then converging model. So what happens is that you're given the problem at first select a single point, and from there, it's like, it's like a graph that diverges. And you try to look at as many possible viewpoints that you can possibly think of. And from there, you begin to converge against these select off a more probable solution. So you can come up with our ideas that you think would be interesting to really pursue. And I think having this kind of framework is something that's applicable no matter what course you're in, doesn't have to be financial, or humanities, but it's really any problem that you face in life, it could even be personal issues. And this same framework is applicable to everything that you learn. Podcast Host 17:56 Yeah. And I think that's a good way of looking at it. Do you find that when you are talking to like a hardcore stem friend, like us, you know, a friend of yours that may be, you know, maths and science to the bone? Do you feel as though you are talking to someone from another planet? Or do you still feel as though they essentially have a similar way of approaching things and similar ideas, they're just more maths and science based? Faith 18:21 I think that it's probably similar. The only difference is exactly the focus of your field. Because I have this one friend who is really into finance and math and physics, which seems was a part from the outset. But talking to him, I really feel as if we can connect over the way that we approach our subjects and passions. He loves that discovery, of understanding these fundamental truths about the world that physics has to offer. Yes. And I think even in psychology, there's also that parallel there in which we're trying to discover truth about humanity, like the way that the mind works. And I really love this whole investigative process along the way, and these interests that people bring to their own field. I think that even though such subjects might seem to be was a pipe, there is that similar sense of drive that all people carry out no matter what field you're in? Podcast Host 19:08 Yeah. Now with your Oxford admission, it wasn't just an Oxford admission, you are also a scholarship recipient. So can you explain to our listeners a little bit about what the name of the scholarship is, and what it entitles you to? Faith 19:23 So I'm currently under the Singapore PSC open scholarship, where PSE stands for Public Service Commission. So what this scholarship does, it's it's government scholarship. So when I go over to the UK, they are going to cover 100% of the fees. So tuition fees, that's awesome. Yeah, housing, even like accommodation and allowance as well. So that's really amazing. Podcast Host 19:45 The Singapore government is paying you to study at Oxford. Yeah, that's, that is like the ideal situation. So do they give out many of these scholarships? Faith 19:54 I think it varies from year to year. So this year, the intake was cut down quite significantly to about I think 35 it really varies on the circumstances and exactly on what kind of scholars the government needs for the future. So beyond just them covering a lot of the school fees, there's also of course, a bond that comes along with the scholarship. So for PSE scholars, if you go overseas, it's going to be a six year bond, when you come back to Singapore, Podcast Host 20:18 I 60 bond, what does that mean? Faith 20:20 Well, for me, under the open scholarship, within the six years, every two to three years, I'll be rotated around to different ministries in public service, to really give back and work on different stuff like policymaking, these kind of issues. Podcast Host 20:33 Ah, so it's as if the Singapore government is investing in the bright young minds of the future. And they're saying, hey, we'll help you if you help us. But that's great. They're like, you've got a ready made job as well, as, you know, free ride to full ride, I should say to Oxford, is it just oxford university that they have this relationship with? Faith 20:55 No, it's actually pretty much whatever University you want to apply to. So they do send scholars over to the UK, US, Australia, even other countries like Germany, China, France, Russia, and they do support local scholars as well who want to just study in Singapore. So it's really quite a lot of options for people to pursue. And I think another good thing is that PLC is rather open to letting scholars study a very vast range of subjects. So you don't have to just study politics or international relations in order to get the scholarship. But they actually actively encourage people to study outside of this view, so that you learn various soft skills, and you bring different perspectives to the table in future when you do so. Podcast Host 21:35 So did you have to apply for this scholarship? or How did you get identified for the PSA? Faith 21:41 So for me, as well to nominated students in my cohort, so I think the identifiers based on our academic and character check record, overall, six years in school for six years? Yep, it's from a secondary to like a high school level, I'm not sure what the equivalent is for us, from 13 to 18 years old. Podcast Host 22:01 So character and academic track record. So I mean, like, Is that part of the candidacy? Right, that you just have to be like, a really lovely person? Is that part of the whole winning a PSA, Faith 22:14 I think we will definitely look at your motive for wanting to apply for the scholarship. Because I think that going to the public service, they were looking for people who want to contribute back to society, not just you're in it for themselves, or that kind of mentality. So I think for PRC, they want people who do have a heart for those around them. Because ultimately, these are going to be, I guess, the future leaders of the country who I guess the motive should be for your fellow countrymen around you, rather than just trying to be in it for any financial gain or selfish reasons. Podcast Host 22:46 Absolutely. So what would be your advice about crafting that overall candidacy over the couple of years, you know, the six years that you had to do that throughout high school? Faith 22:56 Well, for me, over the past six years, I wasn't really working towards a scholarship or towards a PAC scholarship in particular, I was just kind of on following my own passions and causes that I was passionate about, I suppose. So I think that when considering your scholarship applications, and writing your own personal statement and everything, I think that the message that you bring forth really has to come from your heart, it has to be something that you yourself, believe in. It's not just about giving the interviewers, what do you want to hear, because I think that if you were to do that, and to get in, perhaps further down the road, you might realize that this organization might not be as suited to your own personality, as you might think. So I think that really presenting forth your most authentic thoughts, struggles and your whole thinking process would be so crucial. And I suppose in that sense, you can trust the process of application. Because I suppose that an alternative way to look at it would be that if you don't get in, maybe it's for a better reason, because it's something better for you down the road that would be more suited to your own inclinations and talents. Whereas if you do get in, and you're just speaking completely, genuinely, you know that that's where you're meant to be. And it's something that exactly suits who you are as a person. And it's a cost that you do believe in, Podcast Host 24:11 kind of like trust the application system that it won't see wrong, even if you feel like you really want to go to x y Zed like if you end up going somewhere else. It will be ultimately for the right reason at the end of the day. Is there any kind of centerpiece that you worked on throughout high school, any kind of like capstone project, I guess is the term some people might use that it would say Faith is the so and so person who created an organization or raise this money or something like that, is there any kind of centerpiece project that you had throughout high school? Faith 24:43 Firstly, it wasn't so much something that ran through all six years, but we did have various service learning and projects along the way. So I did go for this overseas service learning project to Cambodia. And while we were there, we helped to teach these children from different rural villages. Stuff like English science, hygiene through the arts. And my role in the team was both in logistics, a bit of like the team, team identity, as well as like the actual teaching and physical construction that we did on the site as well. Podcast Host 25:16 How long did that last for? Faith 25:18 For the first year, we went there for I think, two weeks. And then the following year, I applied again, and we got in, and I got in. So I went to visit that same area again for another two weeks. But the planning for that whole project lasted like several months for each time before we actually flew over Podcast Host 25:34 there. Yeah, it's quite an important project to you. And I think obviously, like that idea of using arts to help communities, right, and that kind of carried through. And now you're looking at doing experimental psychology, which is very, very cool. Now, what comes first? Is it the Oxford admission or the scholarship? Faith 25:52 So I sent in my application for the scholarship in June, because that was in the early application. The also application was further on somewhere, I think, in October, if I remember correctly, yes. And after that, my Oxford interview came somewhere in December. And then my PC interview came in January. So it was kind of running concurrently and staggered along the way. Because there were a lot of different applications features to get through for both applications. Podcast Host 26:17 So did you know that you were a Oxford student first, or did you know that you were a PSC student first, like what kind of letter came in the mail first been like, hey, congratulations, Faith, we really want you to be a Oxford student or PSC. Which letter came first? Faith 26:34 I think it was my offer first, for Oxford first. So you said that was based on what my IV score would be. So I had a general sensing of that. And after the PSE interview that she got back really fast, in just a couple of days told me that, well, I actually, I should get it. So I was also grateful for that opportunity. And a while after that, that's when I got my IV score, which then confirmed my place in Oxford. Podcast Host 26:58 So that's awesome. So you got the Oxford and then like, That must have been great. But I know that for a lot of people, it also like, Oh, yeah, great. That's also super expensive. But yeah, we're going to Oxford, right? And it's like, Hey, Mom, Dad, guess what, and then like getting the PSA must've been like an amazing moment. And not just for you, but for your family been like that, you know, life changing, right? That's not just a moment for you. That's a moment for everybody in the family, because it not only gives you the opportunity to study overseas for free, but it also sets you up with a great job when you get back for a couple of years, which is awesome. Did it really take time for that whole? You know, Oxford PSC, double victory for Faith. Did it take that a little bit of time to sink in? Faith 27:44 Definitely. I think when I first got the new hours over the moon, I really jumping for join showing the join my family and friends. Because part of me really never imagined that I would actually get the opportunity to go to Oxford sounds like there's such a prestigious school on the other side of the wall, let alone that and the scholarship. So yeah, it was, it was such a wonderful time to go through, I think and it was really beyond what I ever imagined. Yeah, and I must be a huge moment. Podcast Host 28:10 Is there anything that you're a little bit nervous about by sending, you know, a place I've Oxford, Faith 28:15 I guess one would be how everything there is going to be so different. And I'm going to have to reveal my communities from scratch back to like square one. So I hope that that will be a good time, you know, where I can make really meaningful good friendships and that I hope Africa to cope with the academic rigor as well. Because for my course, talking to some seniors, they said that we usually have the right, perhaps a one to two essays every single week for like, every single term. So that's like a huge commitment to, I guess, balance. Also, because I don't want my life to just revolve around Academy or, like, the whole reason why I want to go overseas was also to experience a different culture. So I think another thing would be considering how I condense you know, that hectic school lot as I still going out there and seeing the world while I'm overseas. Podcast Host 29:05 Yeah. Have you ever been to Oxford? Your vein on campus? Faith 29:08 Not to Oxford itself? Because I've been to was London School. scholarship A while back? Podcast Host 29:15 Yeah, I visited Oxford in September. Oh, Faith 29:18 how was it? Podcast Host 29:20 The whole town pretty much revolves around Oxford. But like, I think the thing that struck me about Oxford is just, it was similar in a way to New York, in that if you walk around the streets of New York, every corner you go to is that oh my god. I remember this building was in that movie. And I know this building because that story is from this particular building, and like just so much history. And I think that's the same kind of thing with Oxford like you go, and you can say why JRR Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings and he was an Oxford student. And so the all souls college is got how many towers, two towers and when he was in the library, writing the book of the things called the Redmond reading room might be wrong. please correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. So out the window, he could see the two towers. And that's what he called the second book. And just near that CS Lewis wrote Narnia, and there is a door there with the Atlanta lion on the door. And then up above it is the little fawn tumnus. I don't know if you've ever read Narnia. But yeah, I love it. Yeah. So there's the Lions Head and aslin. Right, up above right is like a little 400. And then just next to it is the lamppost. So when they open the door to Narnia, first thing they say is the lamppost, that lamppost is there. And I was like, This is so cool, right? You know, like these, these amazing authors are coming up with these amazing ideas and stories. Some of these amazing authors, were just looking around the campus of Oxford, just saying what they say and turning it into into words in a book. So yeah, there's a lot of like, really cool students, a lot of really cool stories do the Oxford tour, it'd be my suggestion, like just trying to learn and appreciate the history. Faith 31:04 I think it's so amazing to see his show was coming alive right before your eyes. And the fact that also was a savage? What, over 900 years ago in Yeah, well, 1096, or something that's insane to think, Oh, yeah. And you're walking along the same pavements as these great minds that have been in history, it's such a wild thought Podcast Host 31:23 it is, I think it's a great place to to certainly mix with a very high caliber of students from all around the world, in terms of the role of visual arts, in a world that is increasingly focused on STEM, what do you think is the role of Fine Arts, the arts in general, in the future of work? Faith 31:42 I think that it's something that makes the world a lot more colorful. And it's one of the things that gives mankind so much about humanity, you know, I believe that arts, it kind of helps to capture a snapshot of the time that we are in, whether it's like a moment in history, or even our current situation, because I think that the study shows that concession society will situations and issues that people are going through, and the toll from such a human lens. So for example, you will compare, for example, like a painting, or a sculpture that was made during this era, it will have these certain connotations, and this whole rich culture that is behind the story and concept that the artist comes up with, as well as his own personal touch, through his own interpretations, and even his physical presence that has been upon the work. I think that is something that is so powerful, it really captures that whole moment in history for something that generations down the road can look back on, and 32. And I think that arts is all of these things that are so universal, it doesn't matter what language you might speak, or what cultural background you come from, it's it's almost like a language all in itself that anyone can look to, and relate and find their own personal connections to. And I think that's really something that is so valuable. And it's something that is so important, even as time passes. And even as society changes so much. I think that the art City Hall is such an important space in our world. And it's not something that should ever be given up. Podcast Host 33:11 Got the passion going there, I could see that that's something that's like really near and dear to you. That was like getting on the pulpit type of thing and pre preaching the benefit of arts, which I think is awesome. Like, I think, yeah, there's definitely a place for arts and I think a lot of students need to be reassured if they are passionate about art, that that is, you know, they do have a role in the future, whether it be in a career, it might not necessarily be the career path, they thought maybe it's a a, you know, addition, like you're doing like psychology plus arts or something like that. Or it could just be arts in general, but either way, like, I feel like they need to hear a voice like yours, to reassure them that no, like, if you love arts keep doing it because it is so important. It does have a place in our society and a very, very important one at that. Is there any way that students would be able to follow along with your journey to Oxford? Faith 34:06 I guess I'm one place that I might be updating is over Instagram, if you want to. I guess you can follow my Instagram but I'm Faith Lee that's Faith Leyy. Podcast Host 34:16 We might put that in the show notes then. But Faith. It's been awesome chatting. Faith 34:20 I really thankful for letting me come on to the show. Yeah, I think it's Yeah, it's really nice to have been able to meet with you and talk with you. Podcast Host 34:27 It's been my pleasure, Faith. Enjoy the trip to Oxford, and we look forward to hearing more from you soon.

Wrapping up 2020! Jamie and Alex on Lessons Learned and College Admissions

🗓 DEC 24, 2020

See transcript

Alex Cork 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex cork and today I chat with my co host, Jamie Beaton. It's almost the end of the year, we're wrapping up a great 25 to 30 interviews that we've conducted so far with the top of the class. And we're just kind of going through what we learned was one of the things that stood out to us, and obviously chatting about the recent college admissions as well. I hope you've enjoyed the episode so far. Hope you've been getting a lot out of it. Make sure to subscribe, make sure to share it with your friends. And we look forward to having more fantastic episodes in 2021. Let's get to the chat between myself and Jamie Beaton. Hey, Jamie, how you doing? Jamie Beaton 00:55 Good, good. Wow, almost Christmas time crazy to see how the years flown by just getting some final presents wrapped up under the tree. What about you? Alex Cork 01:03 Doing the same thing. I mean, Melbourne is coming out of the COVID lockdown, and we're doing pretty well here. And I think it's the first time we've had a Christmas tree in a while as well, to be honest. So looking forward to Christmas. I know it's been a really long year for everyone. But obviously like the Top of the Class has been a really interesting learning process for me in particular. And I know you've been working with like high achieving students for a long time. But you got the opportunity to chat with Ben Zhang as well. And you who else did you interview? Jamie Beaton 01:32 I also spoke with Soumil as well. Yeah, and John Key as well, yeah, that was really fun, I'm getting that you hit insights, I think kicking things off was really good, because, you know, he went from basically a stay at home, you know, what kind of government funded home with a single mother and when he was very young, and then he went to a public school, and then ended up being of course, Prime Minister of New Zealand and you know, making 10s of millions on Wall Street. And so that story of kind of, you know, the end to end impact of education was very inspiring. Alex Cork 02:05 Yeah, I think it's always good to get some perspective and where like that education journey can take you. But I know from my side, chatting to a lot of the students, I've probably done like 25-30 interviews now with some amazing students from around the world. And it's really challenged, I guess, my views and my perceptions of what high achievers quote unquote, actually are, and and what kind of drives them. And I think one of the things that I'm starting to see is like, there's common threads from my side, it's a big thing, from your perspective, what you see is common threads with all the students that you've worked with, in terms of US and UK applications, but some of the common threads that I tend to save from the students is particularly self learning, and the ability to kind of like go above and beyond the school curriculum, like they find an interest. And they follow that down a significantly long rabbit hole, right. And, you know, they're, they're not just kind of like googling how to something rather, they're like going into Google Scholar, and they're kind of reading research papers, and they're talking to people finding communities, and they're doing that all have their own back. And I feel like that's one of the big differences between one of these big common threads that makes these students so far and above what I guess the common student would be, and instead of just found a passion, Jamie Beaton 03:19 I couldn't agree more. And it really feels to me like there are students who have an interest, but then kind of hit a wall, so to speak, and to stop exploring, versus students who know how to keep digging to the next level, whether that be you know, hopping into the regeneron science competition, or whether it be doing the Olympiad, or whether it just be joining an interesting slack community that, you know, enables you to really probe deeper into a topic, I think the thing that always I come back to honestly, is you can go pretty far by yourself, but you can go so much further with even just two or three other like minded people helping you, you know, I guess shine a light on the path forwards. So I think about, for example, Bintang who bribed and the chemistry Olympiad, in the biology Olympiad. And, you know, he was able to push well beyond what anyone had done, you know, within his high school in New Zealand, and he, you know, really, I think, exemplified that idea of, you know, pushing the pushing the pushing deeper. And I think it's also an important trait, you know, we've sent more than 40 kids to Stanford through crimson, of course, and a number of them, you know, they really do demonstrate this intellectual vitality without pushing to explore things you can only access in the high school. And so an admissions officer will see the student and I'll think, Wow, like, this person's obviously got a clear passion for this, because they've just they've just really gone so far beyond what you normally expect of a high school student. So I couldn't agree more. And I think the other thing I'd add to that is, you don't just get, you know, that's coming through through, you know, through academics, but it's this little characteristic that helps to build entrepreneurs because entrepreneurs inevitably have to keep overturning wars and obstacles to keep getting to the next hurdle. That's unsurprising to me that many of these students are also doing quite entrepreneurial projects as well outside of academics. Alex Cork 05:01 Yeah, I think it's what you said about that support networks having like two or three people to help them out. That's really interesting. And I've been talking to students about like, what role their parents play, or who is the five people, they spend the most time with that kind of quote about you being the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And I think in the majority of cases, students have said that their parents have been super supportive of their extracurriculars and their other passions. I think that's a really big tip for students, as well as parents is that, you know, while school is really important, and getting a grade, and a score is really important, when you see that your child has that kind of all, as a student, if you've got that passion, it's worth pursuing. And if it's about having that conversation with your parents, I know some of our students, and some of the guests on the show, have said that they've had like that sit down conversation with mom and dad to say, hey, look, this is what I'm interested in. It's not necessarily related to a score at school, right, it's not going to help me get a better SAT score, or a better ATAR score or whatever it might be. But it will kind of make me a more interesting person and make me more interested in what I'm learning at school. And I think a lot of the students that we've had on the show, they can see that what they're doing outside of school and their extracurriculars is making them a better student within the school walls as well. And I think once they explain that to their parents, their parents are willing truly on board. Jamie Beaton 06:19 I think kind of building on that. The other thing that I've noticed on lots of these students is some initial success can really give the students a lot of confidence that propels them forwards and quite a big way. So I think about the student who doesn't who's just kind of averaged everything at school, and doesn't really have an identity built around any one thing. But I see some of these students for examples on a call recently with a girl who was in the Forbes 30, under 30, in Asia Pacific, when she was 18. And I think she's 14 now, but then a big one just fueled her confidence and pushed it into all kinds of deeper things within, you know, the tech world, building apps, etc. And I think it's really important for youngsters who are ambitious to find some niche, they can dominate and doesn't, it doesn't need to be math Olympiad, it could be, you know, quite an obscure activity, but just go with the process of competing, you know, developing your skills in the area, you know, winning, it just kind of puts you in a, I think, a high for mental state than somebody who's never experienced that kind of challenge and what it feels like to go all the way. So I think for many of our listeners, I'd really challenge you hitting into 2021 to think about, you know, what is one niche? You know, what can you dominate? What, what, what activity can you pick up, you can really be best in your country, or even higher. Alex Cork 07:31 I totally agree. Actually, I was chatting to Mahesh, whose episode hasn't come out yet. But he won the child genius Australia, and he's a Crimson student as well. And he memorized an entire deck of cards in 30 minutes, and was able to recite the entire deck in less than two minutes. And he did it with a really interesting method involving FIFA and soccer players, and all this kind of thing, which is all going to be in the episode. But it was really interesting that he said, one of the most common questions that he gets from students and other people is like, how did you do that deck of card things, right. And I was like, it's interesting how we use the word genius, a lot of the time, and a lot of the students that we have had on the show have been labeled as a genius by their friends and peers and whatnot. And he's like, Well, you know, sometimes it's about having a really native skill. I mean, IMO, like international Maths Olympiad. That's like a really general one. And a lot of students know about it. Obviously, winning gold is an amazing thing. And I know, we're going to have a couple of gold medalists on the show next year. But it's interesting how like, you could solve a Rubik's Cube really fast. Or you can be really good at memorizing a deck of cards, or some kind of like pretty niche thing that you might be all of a sudden, as you say, the best in the country or the best in the world in and everyone's like, Oh my gosh, genius. And then it's about how you kind of cope with that title, like how that title sits with you, whether it negatively impacts your schooling and puts pressure on you, or whether it gives you confidence to do more and better things in different areas as well. I think it's really interesting to say how a lot of the students that we have on the show have gone really deep into one particular area, and have been, as you said, like us that confidence to get better in a lot of other areas as well. Jamie Beaton 09:12 I think it's really well said and once you have found that particular niche area, I think it also tends to propel you into leadership roles and schools. Well, you know, because that initial success often gets you you know, up on stage and assembly, you know, a lot of peer respect. And that inevitably means when you create clubs, other things, you've got a bit of, you know, legitimacy behind you, and that I can turn into you know, being head boy head go. I think of the student, Helen Wu, who actually I think of quite a lot when I meet younger students because she joined us when she was about 13 or 14 and your backbencher goes through the head girl of a school but she was quite new to leadership at that point. She hadn't had much experience. And I think about kind of the set of activities she went through. You know, she got some wins getting into, for example, Harvard and Yale Model UN and other types of activities, and then she ended up being the head girl and now she's at Stanford doing computer science. And I think that's also really exciting. I think when you can get wins when you're 13, 14, 15. And that hit you up before other kids sort of taking high school that seriously in many parts of the world. Alex Cork 10:13 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One thing I've also been interested in, and I think I'm going to throw this question to you as well. But it's really challenged my perceptions of what student achievement is. And some of the students that we've interviewed, and Ellen, in Episode Two comes to mind, jack Byrne, and his charity fundraising comes to mind and a couple other students as well, who are working on real world problems. And I often ask them the question of like, Do you ever feel kind of out of place? If you're like a 1415 year old tackling this world problem? Do you ever feel like there's must be other people who are older and more experienced than you working on this problem as well, who probably have already kind of thought of what you're thinking of that type of thing? And it's interesting, I remember Kara said, this is well, Kara, one, the 3M Young Scientists Challenge. She said, well, I hadn't seen it, you know, in store yet, I hadn't actually seen it physically, she created a nano silver liquid bandage. It's like I hadn't seen it that day before. And then if someone else was working on it, then it's a race, right? Like, I don't care if the other person who's working on it is like twice my age, it's a race to get it out there. And so she just kind of set a mind to working on it. But it was also that mindset of like, a lot of the students believe that they are the right person at the right time to work at this problem. And I think a lot of students kind of get stuck in that. Well, I'm just a teenager kind of mindset where I think a lot of the students we have on the show, are not really burdened with that mindset. They're like, I've got a great skill set, I've got an interest in this area, Why won't I be the person to solve it? Like, you look at Fionn, right, who won the Google Science Fair, extracting microplastics from water? And he was like, why can't it be made to help solve this problem? So and I think they also kind of look at it as not necessarily trying to come up with a solution to a global problem, but just being a part of the solution. So they're not trying to kind of burden themselves with that, oh, I need to kind of solve everything that just say no, I'm just going to contribute to the solution as well. So I think that that mindset of like, understanding that you as a student have like a very real, very useful skill set, and that you don't need to solve everything you just need to contribute to the solution can really help you go like very far beyond what you're doing at school and really help you contribute to society on a global scale. And is that something that you see in some of the students that you know we have through Crimson is that kind of like students who who are really going above and beyond the student mindset, and see themselves as being able to contribute at a, at a really big scale? Jamie Beaton 12:44 I would be just taking a step back for a second kind of, from my own experience, building Crimson around the world, I think what you're describing is so important to any entrepreneur, because whenever you start a problem, and you have vision, you can never achieve the vision, you know, quickly, it's the problem is always too big, too challenging. So you need to break that up into you know, a sliver of a sliver of sliver, and hit that problem. And society rewards you for, you know, validation of a part of a strategy, right. So in our case, we first of all started helping ambitious high schools in Auckland, and then we got some good results, and they were able to raise some investment, money and move to more markets. The same thing is true for high school students, when they you know, they can't solve global poverty, but they can do an interesting social impact initiative within their backyard and get some quick wins, you know, get some media coverage for that correction. We theme as a bit of a leader, wasn't their community, recruit more members get the ball rolling? I think the ability to slice up the problem and then and then really figure out what strand is most approachable is a, you know, mission critical skill, for sure. And on your question about, you know, I guess Crimson, I do definitely see this characteristic across many of our students, I think it's very important for students who are aiming for these ambitious goals like Harvard, Stanford, etc, to, you know, find some leadership initiatives, they can commit to early to find the social impact problem they're really passionate about that really motivates them. And I see time and time again, that those that find those passions quickly, and find sort of a way to attack the problem, you know, get a lot more momentum, and those sort of sort of a bit lost in the dark. Alex Cork 14:12 Yeah, well, just on passions, because I know that students everywhere get told to quote unquote, find your passion. And I chatted about this with Hannah, about like, how to find your post school career pathway type of thing. And it's that idea that passions don't arrive overnight. It's one of those things that if you start looking into something you're curious about, and something that you're interested in and spend some time with it, it will over the course of six months, nine months, maybe a year or so become a proper passion of yours like that will become your niche that will become your area of expertise. I think a lot of students kind of look at them sells, you know, in the mirror and they say what am I passionate about, but they haven't yet found anything that they're really interested or curious about, or they've got something they're interested or curious about, but they've kind of stopped at that level. Right. They're like, Oh, I'm good at maths, I guess that's what I'm interested in. And they haven't really kind of gone above and beyond that, and said, Well, how can I use this skill in other areas to solve other problems or whatever it might be? But yeah, I think that whole kind of concept of students needing to have a passion is a challenging one for a lot of students. And I think one of the things that I've seen on the the guests that we've had on the top of the class is that they've been able to kind of find their area of interest, first, the area of curiosity first, and then after six months, nine months, a year or more, it becomes that passion. So I think that's like a very key takeaway from me so far from being the host, or co host, I should say, is that there's a lot of students who feel like because they don't have a passion that they must somehow be value or whatnot, but sometimes it's just starting with your interest or curiosity. That's the best place to start. Jamie Beaton 15:50 Yeah, and I think this is very well said, I also feel like when you don't have that clear passion, yet, there's students who proactively go and try and find one. Yeah, and there are students who kind of wait for them to come in and sort of smack them, you know, like, smack themselves in the face, accidentally. So in the first note, what I often recommend students to do is go out there and think, Okay, what are the 10 things the 10, most likely things that you could potentially be interested in. And it's very rare students got an idea, often they know what they don't like. And then you go see that cause of different people could be Crimson mentors, you know, an owl in our community around the world could be people in the community, the parents know, whatever. And that helps to do more filtering, and helps to tune out some things and get us into what actually could be quite exciting. And so I'm a really big advocate of active discovery. You also can seek active discovery through certain books, like for example, if you understand artificial intelligence, you could read AI superpowers, figure out if you really like it. You know, if you're interested in finance, you could read, you know, Ray Dalio, his book principles, somebody who has figured out what you like, I would say those haven't found a passion yet. That's all good. But you know, you should begin the active discovery process rather than just kind of passively waiting. Because the faster you have a bit of a niche, you know, the more momentum you can get quickly. Alex Cork 17:00 Yeah, 100% 100%? Well, I think it's been very interesting to say kids, who I shouldn't say kids that they are young people, but they do come across as much older, more mature, many. But it's interesting that they've often found their interest and curiosity and build upon that, through meeting people networking, and that kind of mentoring side of things. And a lot of students I found are on LinkedIn. And it's been a fascinating, well, obviously, possibly, they're, they're mostly on LinkedIn, because I'm finding most of our guests on LinkedIn. That's where I'm going to define a lot of our student guests. But it's been really interesting for me to see how many students are on the platform, how the demographic of that platform has changed a lot. And also, as you mentioned, as well, like slack as a community group, where a lot of students are getting on there. I mean, five years ago, all students who were you know, talented, and doing really great things were meeting on Facebook groups, like getting outside of the school bubble and meeting on there and chatting on there. But it does seem like there's been a pretty seismic shift to both LinkedIn and then slack slash discord, to try and kind of find these global communities of students. And that really helps them get outside of their bubble and really helps them deepen their passion or interest and learn cool things like AI and machine learning, coding, these kinds of things that they probably won't see at school in a typical day, really helps them get outside of their bubble and find those communities. So yeah, I think that that whole kind of shift, like if listeners are there thinking, Well, how do these students get started? And how do these students find like minded people? It's probably because they're not on tik tok? Yeah, like, you know, some of the students I've interviewed, they're like, Yeah, no, 100%, I'm not on Tik Tok, but they are doing things like Slack, LinkedIn, and to a lesser extent, Instagram, and they're networking through there as well. So I feel like that's an interesting kind of angle to take in terms of finding a community. Jamie Beaton 18:48 Yeah, totally. What I'd say to that is, I also do see some people that probably spend more time, quote, unquote, networking and doing it's a fine balance, for example, take in Dang, he probably didn't spend much time at all on many of the social media channels, he put his head down, figure out as nation just really worked hard at it and had a couple of people two or three around the world he'd go back and forth with. So I think you don't have to necessarily be spending all the time on these platforms. Sometimes a lot of young people, they make the mistake of sort of like overselling kind of, you know, some pretty basic activities, they've done spending a lot of time promoting that online. And when they could use that time to further their, you know, their actual achievement. So I think it's a balance, you know, you don't want to be sort of spending all your, you know, free time on these things. But you also, you know, don't sort of operate in a silo in your room. So I think this delicate balance, you probably want to find one or two online communities. Great. And you can really give to and get back from and then yeah, then you can go hard with with the niche you've found. Alex Cork 19:42 Yeah, absolutely. I think there's an interesting balance between advocacy and action. And I was talking about that with another student Adara, who's going to be on the show in a couple of weeks when her episode comes out. But yeah, she was like, advocacy and action work really well together. But she was in that kind of fight. Where she felt like advocacy was, you know, which was networking and education was very beneficial. But she didn't feel like there was no action behind that. And then she went totally the other way and did all action, and kind of drop the advocacy part. And she was like, Oh, hang on a sec, they actually do work well together. So that students are in that kind of phase where they are doing more networking and kind of education around whatever they're interested in, that's great. But there is also certainly a room for you to take action and start an organization and start raising money or start actually having some tangible results around what you're interested in. And I think that's what we're seeing from a lot of the guests on the show that they've gone beyond the initial education side of things. And they're actually seeing that they can take action. And then they might combine them a little bit later on as well. So yeah, it's really interesting to kind of see how these students come to be on the show, and like their profiles that they have pretty amazing, but usually involves some kind of action that they've taken along the way, which is pretty impressive. It's admission season at the moment. We've got I mean, people think it's Christmas season, but for many kids around the world, their biggest present. Yeah, it's admission season, the biggest present, they're going to get as an acceptance note from these top universities from around the world. Is there any kind of trends or you know, things to note that you've seen from university admissions in the early decision round? That is notable or different? I know, obviously, this year, there was a lot of students who applied because there was no requirement for testing due to COVID. Like they dropped the SAT and a lot of these universities, has that been a factor in affecting admissions at all? Jamie Beaton 21:32 Well, I guess Firstly, I'd say I'm pretty proud of the Crimson team here. We've landed offers from basically all the top schools that have come out so far Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Dartmouth, Columbia, brown, you can The list goes on. And so we've really, I think, had a great year for our Crimson kids around the woods. We're very proud of them. This is this is Christmas present around here. Yeah, as far as key trends, what I've seen basically is, as you mentioned, there's been a rise of between 3010. Some cases, given the number of applicants, many of those haven't, for example, so the early admission rate plans from you know, basically around 20% or so back in 2014. To Simpson or so. And the earlier on this year, off the back of the pack, there are so many more applicants applying. What that has meant is that many schools sort of don't know what they're going to expect to the regular outs, they're being quite conservative in the early round, taking less students who haven't had way more applicants, but actually took less students this year than they normally do in the early round. The other thing is, some people were debating whether or not test optional would change, who gets accepted. And it kind of has because 25% of people that got into some of the Ivy's didn't have any standardized tests. And generally those applicants have some potentially, you know, disadvantaged background, or there's some context behind why they couldn't take the kids. And so a lot of schools have been celebrating their recruitment in those areas, which is definitely something to be applauded. But on a go forward basis. There's an interesting question as to, you know, the role of standardized testing. In general, it's still a good idea to take because basically, if you don't take it, and you'll know you're from a community or school in which most people do, they'll raise questions about why you haven't done it. But that's an interesting trend to note. So a lot of our students are really happy with the early results, you know, others are writing their applications ready for the regular round. But it's definitely a very exciting and unique year for the college admissions season. I also had briefly touched on we we had a company or hence a couple days ago, and we had a really talented student of ours from Brazil. He was on a scholarship through crimson and had gotten to Stanford, which is pretty life changing for music came from pretty low income community. And he had done the full first year of Stanford remote online. And it was fascinating to hear him talk about that experience Stanford and run a really impressive remote first year, lots of interesting online collaboration tools, the book many great friendships. But it was interesting to hear about those kids that had sort of had the first year of college through COVID. I fortunately, I suspect, fingers crossed lots of achievers just got an early cycle, you know, we'll be able to go in person come 2021 timber, given the printer, the exact things and everything. But definitely an interesting time in the college admissions world for those that have gotten in, and also those who are now applying and even current college students. Alex Cork 24:11 Yeah. And it's a super interesting time. And I know that a lot of the students that we have on the show, they might be 14 or 15 years old, but they already kind of have a rough idea of which universities they want to go to or what they might want to study after school. My main thing on that is don't necessarily buy into the question of what you want to be when you grow up. If you're a student out there, like if you hear that kind of question, just kind of respond with Well, this is what I'm actually doing now. Like don't actually wait to grow up before you start, you know, working on environmental science or working on coding or machine learning. Like that's a another big thing that I've seen from top of the class guess is that they don't wait until after school to start doing the things that they see themselves doing in the future. They kind of make a start now. And a really kind of having a one eye on the future and seeing where could their profile take them potentially Jamie Beaton 25:00 Well said Alex, and I got to say, you know, have a Merry Christmas to the family. Have a great time. You know, I think it's been really fun building this out with you over the last little while. Many, many families have found this to be a really inspiring, you know, voice of direction for them during a very challenging time. And I think it's only going to get more exciting for top of the class and a wonderful student community around the world in 2021. Alex Cork 25:23 Yeah, well, we're interviewing the Times Magazine, kid of the year Gitanjali Rao on Monday, my time and Sunday, her time. And then we've got amazing interviews coming up in January as well, with some global kind of student celebrities. I think a lot of students would be familiar with their stories. So we really look forward to sharing those episodes in the coming months. But yeah, Jamie, you stay safe there. I hope all our listeners are staying safe and well over the Christmas period. I know it's going to be really challenging one for a lot of people. But yeah, just maintain that kind of positivity and, you know, stay safe and keep well. Jamie Beaton 25:55 Chat soon Alex, have a good one.

Ep #21 How to Learn 14 Coding Languages and Run a Global Blog

🗓 DEC 23, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and in this episode I chat with 16 year old, Satvik Tripathi. Satvik is passionate about computer science and artificial intelligence. We chat about learning 14 different coding languages, being a Google Developer and leading a global student led organization with a mission to bring AI and tech to the world. Let's chat with Satvik Tripathi. Hi, Satvik welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners who are all around the world a little bit about yourself? Satvik 00:51 First of all, thank you so much for having me here. I'm Satvik. I'm from Lucknow, India, and I'm a high school senior. And I am very passionate about computer science, artificial intelligence. I have my own nonprofit international organization. I am the head and founder of fit. And I am into research and artificial intelligence app development. And I really look forward to working in some research lab in future as they get into college and hopefully contributing to this world. Podcast Host 01:24 Well, yeah, are you already are doing some great contributions to the world? And we'll get into that. But how old are you just for our reference? Satvik 01:30 I'm 16. Podcast Host 01:31 16 years old, and you're interested in AI and all these amazing things that I don't know too much about? Because I didn't really do that kind of thing. Well, that kind of thing wasn't really around when I was at school. So that's kind of showing my age a little bit. But we want to talk about you and you're interested in AI. Where did it all start from? Satvik 01:48 It's a very funny story. I am a huge Marvel fan. Podcast Host 01:51 Me too. Satvik 01:51 Oh, that's great. Yeah. Iron Man 3000. Podcast Host 01:55 Yeah, that's right. Satvik 01:56 So coming from that I am a huge Jarvis fan. I used to sit down for them to TV, and thinking wishing that I could have that Jarvis with me, and bringing the whole possibilities and areas of things I could do with him. And then I've thought of actually, you know, anything you pops into your mind, you just Google it. So I googled how to create jobs. And I got these, you know, long fandom pages. And then, you know, found theories. But that's not what I was looking for. I was looking for something more technical. And then at that point of time, I came across this word artificial intelligence. So this was something which, you know, was my first interaction with artificial intelligence. I tried to, you know, search more about it, learn more about it. And then it was like, a lot of mathematics. Like the first research paper I read, I only got to understand the top four words or five words of the abstract, right. Other than that, I had no clue what was going on. So it took me a lot of time to understand the complexities and topics within AI. I'm currently actually working on a real life job. It's like it's my current project. And it's awesome. It's like on the base level, like, the base level is done, almost done. Maybe in a year or two, it would be like on a basic working. Podcast Host 03:17 If you were to read that abstract again, how much of them would you understand? Satvik 03:21 I wrote a similar abstract and a year ago. Podcast Host 03:24 So yeah, you're not just reading abstracts, you're writing abstracts, and you feel like you've got a real handle on on everything that's involved in AI. But it's I know, it's a super fast developing field. And I feel like teenagers could be on a level playing field compared to someone who is, you know, 30, or 40 years old, because AI is so new, like you've grown up in the age of AI, and a 30, or 40 year old, probably hasn't really grown up and has had to learn it from scratch, and you've learned it from scratch as well. Do you feel like when you interact with the wider community, that you are at a similar kind of level as other people who might be a bit older than you in the field of AI? Satvik 04:05 That really depends on like, what person I'm talking to you. Like, in general, as a fighter in the world. Everybody knows what artificial intelligence is. Like, one of the most basic definitions like I've got, you heard from like, a layman, who is not a researcher working in artificial intelligence is that anything which computers and humans can do, artificial intelligence can do in a simpler way? Right. So this is what like a simple perception of like most people for artificial intelligence, but as a researcher, or winner as a project manager, when I speak to people, we speak on a whole new level, we speak about algorithms, the, you know, how the data set is formed and how the data is distributed. It's a different world. It's a completely different world. It's more into mathematics. The statics, you know, you sometimes have to think about even the humanities fault, like how is the machine Thinking you have to think about the psychology of it. Because at the very origin, which is something Stanford has, even right now, it's called the symbolic system, which was the combination of artificial intelligence, psychology, linguistic cognitive science to actually understand about how the machine is learning. So yeah, it's really up to the knowledge of the other person. But yeah, on a broader terms, you can obviously explain it to them. Podcast Host 05:26 What kind of maths is involved in this? I mean, when you say like, it's got a lot of maths and is it something that you would learn at school? Or is it a completely different kind of maths than what you learned at school? Satvik 05:36 It's a whole lot of math, it's more than calculus, and even calculus, like mostly without any numbers, they are dealing with, like only variables. And like there's a key data. And there's three dimensions of data sets, you know, in n dimension. And then we are finding out about like, the relations between those points. And like, it's a complex mix of the poor mathematics, and the statistics, like understanding the distribution of the data, Podcast Host 06:05 right? So just slow down a little bit on that one. For me, I've actually never seen an algorithm. I know that sounds like a silly question to us. But what does an algorithm actually look like? Is it one line of code? Or one formula that you apply to a large data set? Or is it you know, a large set of coding data, like I described for me what an algorithm looks like. Satvik 06:29 I'll walk you through it. Podcast Host 06:31 Thank you Satvik 06:31 Think about a data set. It contains a number of data. And the data points are set in a way that you have an x AI, which will give you an output in Y, if you put the P of x is the function P of inside. If you put exci then you will get an output Why am I right? Yes, that's you have a data set D which has all these points, till n and number of points. So now, your job is to do what you have to do is that we now take up a new point, say x comma y. And we asked you that if we put the same this new eggs into the old function, where this why would like, so what we do is that we try to understand the pattern in the previous data sets like how x i and Y are related, right? So say if the you put x equals to one and the y is equals to two, then you put x equals two x two equals two and y two becomes four, x three equals to three, y two, y three becomes eight. Yes. So basically, you're seeing that it's growing exponentially. And it's like two to the power n, that becomes a formula for this data set. So you assume that if x equals to n, then if you put a new number that is x in the data set in this function, then possibly the answer of why would lie into the power x, and we just do it in a whole new complex level. Like this is one of the simplest examples, you will never seen data science, right, Podcast Host 08:05 Right. So the algorithms, I'm going to guess for the kind of things that are like when people talk about algorithms, changing the world or big data sets, I'm going to guess the formula is extensive and has like a lot of variables and a lot of different things that it's trying to calculate. And if done successfully, or inputted correctly, then the better it can predict the outcome, right of particular behaviour or whatever you're trying to predict. Satvik 08:32 Exactly. The classified data. Podcast Host 08:34 Yes. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm glad I understood that. But when you were, you know, 13, and you were looking up how to create Jarvis, and you saw that abstract and you didn't really know what was going on? How did you then start to try and figure out what was going on? Like, where do you start when you're 13? And, you know, obviously, the internet is a source of many resources, but many of them are dead ends, many of them are not the level of, you know, 13 year old set, because as I'm sure you are pretty smart, then as you are now, but where did you go to for the places that you wanted to learn how to code and create something like Jarvis? Satvik 09:10 Oh, okay. So it contains various parts, like I come from, like an education system where computer science is not, you know, we just start from an early level, like in most American schools, you have your coding classes, right from your like ninth or 10th grade, I guess. We didn't have that in our school. Like we have computer science in our grade 11. slang for junior year. Yes. And that, too, is not a very competitive class. It's barely you could do anything with that. So when I started, I was at the end of my, you know, freshman year, and was going to enter my sophomore year in high school. And I wanted to create this app. So I had to do three things. I first need to understand coding languages because I had no experience in that. Second, I need to understand the mathematics behind it and turn x Understand, what are these terms that we are frequently using like machine learning, or data science or data points like we are using these terms. So what actually these legends mean? So I started with a course, which is like very close to my heart, and I respect it like even till now, that is CS 50 by Harvard, I guess is one of the largest taking course. So, I mean, Professor David J. Milan, I adore him so much. I still like they released the 2020 version, although I'm an alumni of CST, but I still took it again, because they went live. And I actually met Professor Milan in one of the open sessions, and it was really an honor talking to him. So yeah, cs 50 took me from the very scratch, working with a c++ language to taking me to, you know, SQL, Python. And then as I went forward, I took like online courses, I did not pay for any course because I wasn't looking for certification. So I went to open courses, which was like free, then had the same college level, both Mathematics and Computer Science. And they have course logistics as well open for everyone. So I took like Stanford courses, like cs 221, which is artificial intelligence. Then I took cs 229, in CS 230, by Professor Andrew enshi, on deep learning and machine learning. And then I took like, more and more and more courses. And like till now I've taken like, more than 50 courses. Podcast Host 11:31 Wow. Yeah. All online offering, Satvik 11:34 like in recent years, like Coursera, and edX, started giving out their scholarships and fee waivers. So I started applying from them. So some are like certified, and I've got them I guess, around 25, or 30, certified something like that. Podcast Host 11:50 Well, what was the, you know, beyond the Java's and Marvel interest? What continued to draw you in? Because some students, I'm sure, would look at some of the things that you were looking at, in the early days, right, going back to that abstract, and say, Oh, god, this clearly isn't for me. I can't understand anything here. I'll come back to it in a couple years time or, you know, maybe I'll you learned at university, what was your main motivation to be like, No, no, I want to continue learning this, even though it's really hard. And I don't really know much about the topic. You know, Was there anybody mentoring you at that time? Or was there anybody kind of, you know, a role model that you had that you were like, apart from Iron Man? Was there any other role model that you may have had at the time? Satvik 12:33 No, actually, not. Nobody was like, I guess nobody even knew what I was thinking. Like, even my mom and dad, they're from pharmaceuticals area. I was working on that one. Like, I've got a lot of time for myself, like after school. So these are what I used to after I finished my work. And one of the motivations, as you asked, is, like, when I was searching for artificial intelligence, one program I created I came across was the Google Assistant developer community program. Yes. And since a very young age, almost like since I guess back in 2017, when they first launched Google Assistant in pixel device. I was blown away with that, because it was the nearest possible Redemption of Java's because we have seen theory, but it's not up to that mark. Because what Google Assistant is able to do is far more of the reach of C, because of the, you know, whole data that Google holds. Yes. And it holds all different webpages and stuff in the knowledge it has far more than what Siri has. So I was really intrigued by this program, I went on to read on the documentations. And the same thing happened, as happened with the abstract, I didn't get a word. I started with a few lines and did with a few lines, I got to just that this is something very complicated. And I need to learn about it. So the program I had to made was on a platform called dialogue flow, which is a chatbot making programmer. Like it's a whole developmental suite. It was like pretty tough at first, but YouTube got my back, I was searching like how to do this in dialogue flow, how to do this in dialogue flow, what is dialogue flow? I saw a couple of their examples. So my learning was more in application way. Like I was seeing the code and I was trying to understand, okay, what does this line do? And what if I change to this, what will happen? So more experiment to a learning rather than just understanding things? So we are that really helped me pick a pace. And you know, as I was moving forward, like this is something about computer science. And I guess in most of the fields that once you start getting an output, there's nothing holding you back. Like since the day you start printing hello world on your screen. He has, like you get a few and like I've created something. He has a human being. That's great. feeling to have because as they say that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it can change form. And here you have created something out of a few lines of code. And it was really fascinating than how much you could hold. And now here I was working on something which could talk to me, it say my name, and you know, chitchat with me. So it was a whole different experience. It was like creating a body out of some line of code and personalizing it as I wanted. Podcast Host 15:28 Fantastic. Talk to me about the Google Assistant developer, because you became one at the age of 13. How did you do that? Is it something that you had to apply for or you said, you were struggling to read that as well. And it's a bit of an uphill battle, but you ended up being part of the program. So talk us through that. Satvik 15:44 So it was like I said, coding eligible, like a child learning. It took me like seven or eight months to understand everything, and be proficient with the, you know, API's and everything. It's not like something you have to apply for. It was a limited time period. Program, which was specifically for Google Assistant when it was launched for, like, the Google devices will launch the Google Home mini to Google Home best and all. And it was like, it's basically to create a community to attract more people, and make them more engaged with the Google Assistant and how they could interact. So I started building a kind of app, which kids could have fun with. So my app was automate Marvel trivia, a Marvel guy again? Yes. So it was it was something like it's a game show, like the AI would ask you like a different set of question. It's a trivia questions, and you will have to answer them, the AI would try and count off, you're like, how many correct you got how many wrong you built, and we'll give you a score at the end. And like, it's like even one player could play more than one player could play. And then it's asked like, do you want to play again, and if you want to play again, the level of you know, your questions increases. It's like, it gets harder. And it's really fun. I played it a lot. Podcast Host 17:02 Yeah, hang on. But don't you program the questions? Or is the AI pulling the questions out of Marvel. Like, where's the questions coming from? Satvik 17:11 Okay, you have to create a database, or you'll have from a question. I actually there was some website, I don't remember the name I asked. And they had these questions on their website. And I had to ask them, but can I use these questions because they had privacy policies from them? And I spoke to them, can I get these for my app? And they were like, happy? Do you know how the data set contains more than, like, 700 questions? And at a point of time, even though I'm the developer, I don't know the answer to half of them. So what I lost you remember, even though my huge mouth and there's so many small, small details that are way too tough for anybody to you know, remember, as I, you know, went forward, created this app, it was well and functioning. I then got it published on Google Assistant. And I don't know how, like, more and more and more people started using it. And every night, the analytics would change, like it would include the previous day's record. And every night, I used to see like how many people actually played. And I reached 1 million, and within a year, it's something like people reach in three or four years. And I was doing like seven or eight months. So seeing that Google gave me like Google Home device, Google t shirt, $200 per month cloud credit. And like, invite to like all Google io, Google App Fest, and everything. Podcast Host 18:36 That's awesome. So basically, you created this, like, really cool Marvel trivia game, you know, after seven or eight months, Google's like, Hey, we're taking notice of how many people are playing this game, like here's, you know, some encouragement to keep on developing new apps, right? How many hours would it take to put together something like that? Right, like the Ultimate Marvel trivia, once you've got the data set? How long would it take you to code something like that? Satvik 19:00 I remember, I was working like 10 hours a day, almost a month. I get Okay. Podcast Host 19:05 Sorry. That's not like something that you can just sit down with a couple lines. And use Wait, right? There are a lot of like testing that you have to do in between? Satvik 19:13 Yeah, it's really tough to get published on Google Assistant. Because it's not that you just check it, you send it out for them to check it. Right. And they run your app, they go through various tests. And then they tell you that this is wrong. This is not working. This command is not working. My app actually got like various rejections, like before it actually got published. Podcast Host 19:36 So that's when you were 14, when you were making this almost almost. Right, right. And what have you learned or continued to learn since then? Because obviously, like that level of coding, I don't know. Was that like beginner level, do you think or is that kind of intermediate level coding? What kind of level was required to make something like that? And what kind of level are you at now do you feel with your skills in that area? Satvik 20:00 It was close supervision but not very proficient because I couldn't cry all the codes like an understand what am I doing here? Something's like, I think like this program is doing it like that. So I should write this code, right. And I didn't have a complete sense of what I'm doing. But now after two years down the line, yes, I am like proficient in more than 14 languages. And I could write in any other language, and even explain it to you what I'm doing and how I'm doing this. And I could write like, hundreds and 1000s of lines of code. I'm enjoying it now. It's Yes, it's more easy to, for me to write in Julia or five and then writing in English, Podcast Host 20:41 learning 14 different languages. Is that unusual? And why did you decide to learn so many? Satvik 20:48 But yeah, it's unusual. Like even like professional developers are like, into three, four or five languages, which they are like proficiently working in. I had no clue what computer sciences, I tried to, you know, discover every aspect of it. And, you know, to discover every aspect, it requires a different skill set a different language. So, as I went into development, I learned a different language, web development, a different language, but then AI, l and a whole bunch of different languages. And you know, I try to work in projects in your real life project, open source projects, and help me understand these languages more, work with them more, proficiently. That's how I like came in contact with them. Podcast Host 21:29 Does learning one language help you learn other languages? or do some languages have like a closer relationship than others? Because I really don't know much about coding languages at all. But is there like, perhaps even you know, the mother of all languages that gives you an advantage in learning every single other one? Or is it all a little bit different? Satvik 21:49 paths, like different syntax is like, you have the different way of writing each language. Um, yeah, they are mostly similar. I won't say like, exactly similar. But it's like some languages are just bizarre in writing, like c++, which is like one of the oldest languages. And it's like using terminals, or file sharing, file management systems or operating system but encoded in it. And they are really hard to read, like, what is the quarter trying to do, as the generation moves forward, and you go to a new language, it gets easier for you to understand, like in c++ to just print hello world, it would take at least five lines to write, but in like bytes, and it would take you like one line, just print hello world. That's the difference. It gets easier. It actually motivates you, oh, this is easier than c++. This is so easy to do this. Podcast Host 22:40 So once you've learned c++, everything looks pretty easy after that, or zero, at least. Satvik 22:46 Yeah, this is what motivated me like, if you are, you know, proficient with c++, and Java, I guess you would be, you know, good enough with any other language. And even some languages are pretty common. Like if you know, MATLAB, then you almost know Julia. So because Julia actually, is a compilation of all languages, like the developers of Julia said that they wanted to make a language which has the best of everything. So it's like, it has the syntax of different languages like, which is the most efficient way to code being the most powerful at the very same time, Podcast Host 23:21 yarn, or Julia, you said it was your favorite language to use. And I can see why that's the case. Now, actually, I was falling with Twitter thread, where a student asked, What's everyone's favorite coding language? And no one mentioned Julia yet, because I know it's fairly new. But I was, like I said, If static was here, he would be saying Julia right now. But everyone was like, you know, c++, or Python, or JavaScript, and these kind of things like, I've never learned a coding language, how long would you think it would take me or an average person to learn a new coding language for the very first time to go from like, absolutely knowing nothing at all, to being, you know, fairly proficient in something like c++, Satvik 24:00 it's up to the dedication, and like the amount of work you're putting in. This is just like maths, you know how to write things. And that's like one class, and then you just try to practice it. Like, there's a course on YouTube, like an eight hour long course. Just, you know, if you do that course, and do another, like five hours of practice with everything that he has taught, that you will be good to go and Pat, like good to go. You will understand everything. And just keep practicing so that you do not forget what this string does or what this command does. It's pretty similar to mathematics. Podcast Host 24:34 Does knowing 14 languages, though, does that get messy for you in terms of like, does your brain sometimes start trying to write in a different code that's not suited to what you're trying to do? Just because you know, too many? Satvik 24:47 Yeah, it happens. Like, if you're like doing coding in one language, and you start doing like any, any other language, you know, because you're typing so fast, because you have to write so many lines of code. This kind of gets into your Like, final chord that you have to press this button after you end this line, you say semicolon. And it semicolon doesn't work with every language, they have, like somehow backslash. So you have to put backslash. And even if you you know, missed that even once the whole code would go out of air. So that happens, like if you're working in one language, and you simultaneously if you're working on the project, which has any other language they're working on, it sometimes get a bit messy, but on the longer run, it's very beneficial. Because I know some of the, like companies and like research groups who interview, they say that we are going to give you an example problem, and you have to solve it. And they won't tell you what language it is written in. And they say that it would be in the top 20 languages. And it's like you should know all of them to you know, actually crack it and find what's wrong the code. So in the longer run, I guess it's a good thing to do. Podcast Host 25:56 Right to Know, all those different codes, right? Yeah, it's a good thing to do. How many coding languages actually are there? I mean, I'm sure new ones are getting developed all the time. But is there an estimate that you have roughly as to how many are out there? Because when I heard 14, I thought that was a lot. But you just said there's a top 20, which implies that is there Satvik 26:14 a lot. But yeah, they're like new ones coming in every day. And people are actually making new languages as per the system requirements. Also, like, if they're doing a particular task, you will have different language for it. So yeah, people are customizing languages, and using it just for their systems for their networks. And yeah, there's, I guess, hundreds and 1000s of languages? I don't know. Podcast Host 26:38 Yeah. But yeah, it's probably good to know those, you know, base couple JavaScript, Python, c++. And then from there, there's like variations on a theme and other ones that you can you can do in that kind of stuff. What would be your top two or three tips to learning any new coding language, Satvik 26:56 I would say start with the basics. That's the most important part like learning anything, regardless of your if you're, you know, learning coding language, or a real language, you know, the basics are the most important part where to put what, like the wall was the consonants, we have syntax, and then try to when you're learning, even when you're learning, try to focus on the neatness of writing the codes, you know, it helps you to understand the codes in a much more comprehensive way. Like if you're doing something just it takes like a few seconds to just write what you just did. And it helps you understand what you're doing and make it makes more sense in the longer run. And once you get proficient with it, you know, you can make acronyms. I know a friend of mine, who uses artists as like his markers, like he says, this part is Bob Marley, this part is Michael Jackson, and then he does his coding. So yeah, this is something I would say be comprehensive while doing the coding and do regular practice. There's like plenty of problems online, there's websites when you could get coding problems, and you can code in there. And they'll you know, tell you that was the code right or wrong, if wrong, like what was wrong in it. So there is like, so many different ways you could approach and even if you don't want to approach it, you could, you know, simply work on your, like daily lives, like, you could make a tic tac toe game, like you want to play with your friend, you could just coat that, or make a calendar or a clock. It's kind Podcast Host 28:19 of like trying remove some of life's conveniences. And instead of just, you know, looking at a clock or something, as you said, try and code one instead. And that's like, you know, a reason to practice and a reason to practice and a reason to practice. I keep finding those reasons to continue learning. I think it's really good advice. And is there any other tips that you would give like flashcards or that kind of thing? Is that like a memorization type of thing? Or is it just purely practice and getting used to, as you said, that kind of muscle memory type of learning? Satvik 28:49 Yeah, you can definitely make notes when you're, you know, taking any course or something. But yeah, as you're gonna start applying, and while coding doing practices, I guess you'll learn them, like how to do these operations. I just searched up and they're like, 9000 languages out there. Podcast Host 29:06 raizy 9000 languages? Well, there you go. So at least you know, 14, have you got plans to learn anymore? Satvik 29:12 I'm actually thinking too long, a bit more. I'm speaking to a couple friends of mine, and you're thinking to learn more Podcast Host 29:19 languages? In your experience? Why is there not just one mother language for all coding languages? Satvik 29:25 Okay, so it's like, let's take a like real life example for it. Um, if say you want to go from point A to point B, and you have various options. You have a bicycle, you'll have a car, you have a Tesla, you have a truck, you have a crane. And then you're asked, like, what would you use? So this is not an easy answer that you say, okay, that Tesla would move the fastest and I'll take the Tesla, but the conditions are very important about the distance between A and B what kind of terrain it is it very hilly or you know, it is Something like it has a lot of traffic or, you know, there could be plenty of conditions. And so basically, this is kind of a puzzle. And you need to find the solution to which you know, vehicle to use to reach there from A to B in the shortest period of time and most efficiently. So the same way it goes for programming languages, that you are given a scenario that you have to develop this thing, you think of the so many languages, and which of the following language would be most convenient, which have the most speed which, and also up to the taste of the programmer, like, Who likes more like, if somebody asked me to develop a new network, I'll probably go with Julia, but there's no harm in doing that the same thing with, you know, Python, either, but it's just that I like Julia more, I enjoy writing it that and also, it's a bit faster, you know, while compiling the code, although it's a fraction of seconds, but when you're compiling a huge amount of data in becomes, you know, quite significant. And then as these people analyze, and they have developed, like each of the languages developed, they have the developers have a mind in mind, they have like, Okay, why vi designing this language. So a language is basically, you know, devil up when they face any problem, right? Like any other invention, they develop, it's like, okay, we are facing this problem, and we need an alternate language to solve it, and so on, you know, we get generations of language, like, at first, like, we had PHP for like, web development, then we got HTML, then we are, you know, concrete working with JavaScript and Java, for your interactive based your web development, like, if you see Apple's website, it's a beautiful website, everything's moving, everything's changing videos and cooperated in it, you know, this was something not available back, even back when Google was founded, but not things are getting changed, and languages are getting more powerful, and, you know, they are moving forward. And the same goes with like, you know, machine learning and your whole statistical analysis of data, like we started with fightin. And now, you know, we are moving forward with Giulia MATLAB, which is used to, you know, make graphs and analyze the data sets, we are using our language, people from economists are using our programming language to analyze the data, you don't make predictions out of it. So it's like, as moving forward, we analyze what thing is useful for what, after all, programming languages are just a tool. And we, as you know, say, it's like, if there's a blade, Smith, and he wants to create a particular type of blade, it's really up to him, like what kind of, you know, tool you would use to make that play. So if he's gonna hammer it, or he's gonna, you know, quench it, or whatever your technique, you would like to make that blade more sharp or more long or short as to what he wants to make, or, and what resources he has, right? Because some languages are like, wood, if you try coding machine learning algorithm in c++, you can do it, it would be robust, it would take you I guess, a lot of time writing, and then a lot of time compiling it. And right, when you have an option, writing that in Python, in Python, we have like libraries, wherein you could import a particular model, right, they have pre written that model, you just have to import it and use it. Like there are a lot of libraries, and you could just borrow the model from there, and you could use them. But if you're, you know, looking for language like c++, you won't get the library and you have to hide everything yourself. So it will be like 500 or 600 lines of code just for one model, and then have to apply it. So it really gets very hard for you. And this is like one of the problems Julia programmers are feeling right now. Because there are not many of the libraries out there. But the ones which are out there are pretty dope, you know, are working refine, Podcast Host 33:55 you mentioned that people in economics are using some coding languages. In your experience, what do you think would be, or who do you think should be learning some kind of coding language, but they might not be completely aware that that's a skill set that they might need in future, Satvik 34:11 I guess, like, regardless of what field you are in, if you're learning any kind of skirt, it's going to benefit you. Like if you take example of economics, anywhere where you have to make predictions. And then you want to make new assumption when prediction machine learning is there and helping so there's actually a different field of study, which combines all machine learning and economics, it is called statistical learning. Stanford actually offers a course on that. And its uses our language to analyze the data, apply these machine learning models written in our language to analyze the data. So anybody like a couple of friends of mine are now reaching out to me they are doing comics that can you just send me some of the shots on our because our professor is saying that, you know, this is the next big thing and you guys should know it, and people are moving forward. programming languages, like one of the greatest example would be like the medical field, which has definitely no connection with machine learning in 2015, nobody would have thought that, you know, you could apply computer science and medical now, like drastically changing, it's like, people want to work together and you know, create a better outcome. Podcast Host 35:20 I think what I'm getting from that is that no matter what field, you're going into, that you would be very, very well served to have at least a base level of knowledge in coding, computer programming, that kind of thing. Satvik 35:32 Even vice versa. Like, if you're a computer scientist, if you are working with somebody who is in picture of Medical Sciences, you should have a basic background of it. Otherwise, you're just telling you stuff and you just don't get it. Podcast Host 35:44 But it seems like computer science and AI are going to be and deep learning and those kinds of things are going to be three, or a couple of the main tools that people will be using to solve the problems of the future. Like this is a fairly new technology. And that is increasing in power all the time, and can be applied to complex problems. So if you want to be a part of that problem solving, and if you want to be able to see those connections between the problem and the possible solution, then you really need to have a little bit of a grasp of both. So I think that that's very good advice. And I hope students listening take great analogy. Satvik 36:25 Yeah, great analogy. Podcast Host 36:27 As you said, like, even if they don't know when or where they will use it right now, it will be a skill that they can use in the future, almost certainly, it will be a skill as they Satvik 36:37 even I guess in future of like, artists who do painting would be using AI, because there's this new technique. It's called generative adversarial networks, it is used to generate images, which are not real, like it uses so many different images that like which contains probably 1000s of images, and renders a new image, which is unique, which is very different. And you won't be able to identify whether it's real or not. So people are using this technique to create artworks. And, you know, try to mimic what like Picasso made. Podcast Host 37:11 I know that that has some very dangerous potential as well. I've seen like deep fakes and those kinds of things. Satvik 37:17 Exactly. The example of generativity versus networks. It's about how you use your knowledge. Podcast Host 37:24 I know luid about coding from mainly been on the host of this podcast, actually speaking to other students who are also doing coding, which one would you recommend students should start with? Like, what's the most basic of the languages? And which one do you think has the most possibilities and is perhaps the most advanced of the coding languages that you know? Satvik 37:44 So yeah, different coding languages are used for different purposes, where if you are someone you know, who is getting into the coding for the first time, I recommend taking c++ because that's a very fundamental coding language, it's very rigorous. It's of no use, nobody uses but what is teaches you is to remember syntaxes, to apply the correct line of code. And then as you move forward, then you choose a path, like you want to be a developer, like an app developer, you choose JavaScript, Java, you want to be like a website designer, you choose HTML, if you want to be an iOS developer, you choose, you know, Android Studio, or like it for iOS, like swift language. But if you want to go into something like data science, machine learning are efficient. So there are like languages like our phyton, like, which is on top of every language right now. But some more languages are like Ruby. And my like, personal favorite is Julia. As of right now, it's a very new language, and it holds so much possibility. It's like, even if you read the documentation of Julia, it's like, we have the syntax of Python, and we have the swiftness of Java. And it's like, a very well composed language, it has the best of everything mushed together. And it's specifically for, you know, machine learning and data science, I felt that this is something revolutionary to me. And I know that when I'll be in my college, like two or three years down the line, when I'm, you know, working at somehow I know, people around me would be using this language more than Python. And I really think if, if there's someone who is really passionate about this field, I really encourage them to take Julia as a language. And even they have their online Academy, Julia Academy where they provide free courses to learn Julia and actually have some, I think, in all of their courses, and it's really fun to you understand this new language, they have great data sets, they have great, you know, what we call libraries to import models. They have amazing, you know, like this data flux, which is really great for deep learning, and it's really fun to Play around. Podcast Host 40:01 Crazy right? When I was at school, we were told to learn German because it was going to be useful. I don't know why we would learn German because the only reason it would be useful is if you go to Germany, right, I'm yet to go to Germany. So he learning German may or may not have been the most useful thing. But it does sound like this is a super useful language or languages to learn what fascinates you the most about computer science and the I guess the possibilities of computer science, Satvik 40:28 the possibilities that computer science whole like in not just in computer science field, but in other fields, even like in medical field, computer science and medical have very well mushed together, which was at one time were very separated things like one is engineering, and one is medical. And these were two different centers and very different things. But now, as we are moving forward, we see majors like computational biology, or by informatics, and people are working together, they are learning both sides of biology and computer science. And, you know, applied it, like in one of the conversations with Professor Halliburton, one of the oldest professors at MIT, and he has worked on like, one of the first languages, and he told me that computer science, if you want to work in computer science, you need to think about the ad like computer science and watch. Yes, so you want to move forward in that think about the and that thing has stuck with me forever. Since then, I've been looking for answers. And like, I think at a particular scenario, and I think like how computer science could be, you know, well marched in this location. So I try to, you know, apply things in the real world and see how better world it could be with computer science. It's not like computer science is going to take over. It's about like, if you're using AI, right, and say, another person who is doing podcast is not using the AI, the world for the second person is obviously done more than yours. Yes. And obviously, you will be more efficient, and you will move forward. And that guy would be shocked at what makes difference, that person using AI manages time managers will work in a more efficient way and solving the very basic functionality of computers, to help save time to make it more efficient. And thus remains the same for artificial intelligence. It's not about eating somebody's job, or we hear about like, it will take away jobs and factories. No, it won't, it will always be regulated by humans. And the humans need to be trained with AI. Podcast Host 42:33 Absolutely. I know, that's a big fear for a lot of people in factories and that kind of thing. But it's going to be replaced. But as long as people take the time to learn things like coding in different languages, and you've created a great community, for people to talk about these kinds of different technologies and what they're doing in that space, which is terrific. And so you've gone from a team of one or two people was you and your two people. And now your ad how many writers Satvik 43:00 are not just writers, we have a huge team of marketing, graphic designing web designing, outreach, content writing, and