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#5 How I Got In - Oxford PPE Admit on Exam Stress, Debating and Why He Chose PPE

🗓 MAY 22, 2021

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Jamie Beaton 00:17 Welcome, everybody. This is top of the class. And today I'm here with Michael who recently just got admitted into Oxford's and very famous PPE program philosophy, politics and economics from South Africa. I'm excited to be on the show with you today, Michael. Michael 00:30 Yeah, thanks for having me. Jamie Beaton 00:32 Let's just jump right right into it. So when do you first get the idea to think about applying to the UK? And was it always a goal for you? Or did it happen quite late in your education journey? Michael 00:43 It really has always been a goal for me, particularly to go study at Oxford, not just the UK. And you know, knowing that I wanted to study a PPE, I was pretty sure about that for the last sort of four years of school. So it's definitely been a long term journey for me. Jamie Beaton 00:58 Back when I was in high school, I was quite unsure about where they want to apply for, you know, Cambridge or Oxford, and I was tossing up Economics and Management, pp and economics, and I ended up applying for economics at Cambridge. So how did you kind of build that certainty around going to Oxford? And then how'd you pull that center and dunk the PPE program particularly? Michael 01:16 So in terms of in terms of applying to Oxford? It was, I really actually caught on to that question. I mean, it was just always a goal. For me, I think a lot of it stemmed around from the the history of the Rhodes Scholarship in South Africa. So obviously, I mean, it has it has quite a dubious connotation. and rightfully so nowadays. But when I was really young, I mean, we were always told about the Rhodes Scholarship, and how amazing it would be to get it. So it sort of started as an interest in trying to get the Rhodes Scholarship and then developed as an interest to go to Oxford. And then in terms of, you know, really deciding that I wanted to do a PPE. It was just really what I'm interested in. So I love politics, I loved philosophy, and I love economics. So it was really also, again, a simple choice. Jamie Beaton 02:03 Digging into PPE a little bit. So I see a lot of students get exposure to economics in high school, but it's hard to typically get exposure to politics, and perhaps even more difficult to get exposure to philosophy. So how did you kind of find your interests in those, those other areas, what which of those three kind of came first, and what have been your activities, or moments that gave you excitement around those other kind of strands of the degree? Michael 02:26 So for me at high school, I didn't really get exposure to any of them through any of my coursework, they weren't offered as subjects or anything. And my interest probably came first with politics, particularly because of sort of idolizing people like Barack Obama, and sort of getting interested in politics like that. It's and then, you know, the rest sort of just just followed from there, I was quite, I was quite involved with World schools and more the United Nations debating at school. So my interest in all three subjects were sort of met in the process of engaging with debates and that sort of stuff. Jamie Beaton 03:02 Interesting, okay, it makes a lot of sense. It's quite funny. A lot of students do get into PPE don't really have background in any of those areas, which is kind of quite common, but it's such a versatile degree that you can really pick it up. I guess once you get over there thinking about career aspirations, what kind of career pathways are you thinking about? I see lots of PPE grads looking at, you know, Wall Street, City of London, you know, going to finance others thinking about government, you know, where are your pathways the moment looking like? Michael 03:29 To be honest with you, I'm not quite sure I'm I'd definitely be interested in sort of the whole host of careers that a PPE opens up. I'm not closing anything off just yet. I think I'd definitely like to study a bit further, I don't think I'd be happy after three years. So maybe a post grad somewhere, and then see where that gets me. Jamie Beaton 03:50 Beautiful. Okay. And in terms of the application process, so getting into Oxford is difficult. The interview process is known to be rigorous, challenging, you've got often other tests, you've got to do, I guess, walk us through the different pieces that went into getting in Oxford, what were the various components you went through? Michael 04:05 So I started working with Crimson in grade 10. And they they sort of gave me advice on what extracurricular activities actually be targeting. And, you know, it was quite nice at the time there was there was a lot of stuff that I was already doing, and there wasn't too much that I had to add on to my extracurricular activities. So from when I started working with crimson, I pretty much just carried on doing what I was doing. And then I started working on my personal statement quite early on, and just worked through that from June. But I think definitely the trickiest parts about the application process for me was the fact that I wrote my a level exams in October and the beginning of November. So I had a I think it was like a 12 day stretch where I wrote level a level exams and on the final day, I wrote my TSA my thinking skills assessment, which is the idea exam. So that was definitely the trickiest part about the application process for me. Jamie Beaton 05:06 I chuckle a little bit, not only because that's some sort of crazy kind of hunger games of exams, but also because I guess back in the day in high school, I had a pretty similar painful experience. And I remember, I actually had to fly to the UK to go sit the TSA. So I was sort of jet lagged as well. So at least did you have to you did your TSA locally, right? And then your interview on zoom? Michael 05:28 Yeah. Jamie Beaton 05:29 That's good. How was the TSA? So I guess for those of you who are not familiar with TSA, the thinking skills assessment is used to programs like PPE use things like economics, it was used for my, for example, my Cambridge program that I applied for back in the day, how did you prep for that? Yeah, how'd you find the test? What was it like? Michael 05:45 So I really enjoyed the TSA because I found like, all the questions quite interesting and the structure around it. So, you know, when I first started really researching the PPE at the beginning of grade 10, I did a few practice t essays and sort of got my header into that way of thinking very early on. And then yeah, I think the TSA for me was actually the biggest shock to come out of the application process, because I did a lot better in the actual test than I was doing all of my practice. So I was getting scores of sort of mid 70s, in my practice, and then I got a low 90 in the final test. So it was, you know, as the biggest shock, I got the results on the same day that I got my a level results. And I was, you know, as everyone is, I think I was really nervous about whether or not I'd even get the course requirements for my a level subjects. And then I was so happy when I did. And then I got the TSA later that afternoon. I was just always in shock for the rest of the day. Jamie Beaton 06:39 Nice. You see, you would have gotten a conditional offer to start with from Oxford, right? Michael 06:44 Yeah. But it was actually sort of the timing was weird. So my A-Level results were published on the 11th of January. And the Oxford offer was sent out on the 12th of January. So yeah, I'd already met the requirements. Jamie Beaton 06:58 Wow, that's very cool. Okay, so how is your Oxford reaction? Like, what was the day? Like, when did you check it? How did the family respond? How did you handle that kind of euphoric news? Michael 07:08 It was, it was really weird circumstances. So I was actually by myself at the time my, my dad who works from home was busy in a meeting, and my mom was out doing some deliveries, she was taking over my summer job so I can monitor my emails for the day. So as I was actually at home alone, and you know, I just opened the news and I, I did an Oxbridge summer program in grade 10. And at the time, I bought an Oxford shirt from the official University store. And I went and when I read my offer, I went and put on that same shirt that I still had, and I just went and stood outside my dad's window and waved at him. So that was sort of the reaction. Jamie Beaton 07:46 That's hilarious. And how did he react? Michael 07:49 He was probably more shocked than I was, I think, I think yeah. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, he literally just finished his meeting, say, he came downstairs and he was just like, "No way. You got in?" And then, I mean, the rest of the day was so amazing, because of the response I got from basically anyone I'd ever known, saying, congratulations, when they saw the news. It was you know, it was it was amazing to see. Jamie Beaton 08:15 Yeah, it's a real community response to things like this. It's really, really pretty epic and inspiring. And how do you a level so what I did was to do take what IGs or GCSEs did you take and how did you choose going to what a levels that you wanted to focus on in the end? Michael 08:31 So our school setup is a bit different to what most people are used to we, we have to curriculum, we can do a levels or the IBP, which is the South African National senior certificate. And we only started the A levels. The first year our school started offering a levels was the year we started. So we were sort of the first group, you know, charging forth into the unknown, not really knowing what to expect. So we didn't do any agency SES beforehand. So we sort of made the jump from grade 10 South African learning to a levels in one go. And we also we also did extra as levels to meet South African University requirements. So you know, my AS levels were weird I did, I did maths, physics, history, chemistry and English language, and then also IGCSE French. And then from there, it was, the decision of where to go in terms of what to focus on was quite simple. I took history because I loved it. And then I took maths and physics because I knew I could get at least A's for them. And then I also took further maths just as something extra. Jamie Beaton 09:42 It felt so spicy. I took that as well and it took up a ton of time. It was it was a base of an A level. How did you find that? Did you do mechanics? Pure instead of statistics? Michael 09:53 Yeah, so they actually changed. What was also quite tricky is that it was the first year they changed the further maths syllabus. So, the exam, the past exams didn't really fit the exams that we'd be studying. So you didn't have a lot of practice material that was perfect. But I also actually didn't have a teacher. So the only teacher time I really had was a tutor with Crimson. And that was under 30 hours or something. So it was, you know, it was really daunting. And also, something I'm not too proud of is I didn't have great time management during lockdown. So I ended up spending practically the month of September learning pure turned statistics from scratch. Jamie Beaton 10:36 Wow, I love the hustle. That's great. So you spent 30 to 40 hours on it. Okay, beyond your tutoring time, how much kind of independent time would you say to put in to get the a level done? Michael 10:47 A lot. It was at least a you know, like I said, it's hard to estimate because I did it in a very concentrated period of time. But I think there was probably a month. And also one thing I don't think I'll ever forget is I got 89 as my percentage uniform mark for my a level. And the grade threshold for an A star was 187 out of 250. And I got 186 out of 250. Jamie Beaton 11:13 Did you consider going for the cheeky remark? Michael 11:16 I did. But when I told my parents, they'd have to pay over 200 pounds if they didn't get a if I didn't have a change mark, they weren't interested in it. Jamie Beaton 11:25 That's funny. That's what I've seen over the years. A lot of students do remarks usually doesn't move, but they resolve then, you know, like a boundary grade moves over. But typically it's the humanities subject. So I think Yeah, you probably rest easy with with your further math. That's pretty heroic and 89% is pretty good further maths. Michael 11:44 Yeah, I was very, very happy. It was it was definitely what I was most shocked about with my results. I was not expecting to do that. Well. Also, because the mechanics exam that year was just ridiculous. I mean, the the grade threshold for an A was 50%. So I was I was feeling so down in the gutter after writing it. Jamie Beaton 12:03 Yeah. Well, I remember from undergrad I had this class called econ 1011. A. And it's known as Harvard's most difficult undergraduate economics class. And the average score in the midterm was 37%. I think I got like a 45%. And you know, that just feels horrible. You know, you could never get 50%. And, you know, in high school, you're used to getting 80s 90s 100 and whatever. So yeah, it's funny when you have like a humping paper like that, but at least scaling sort of takes care of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And the exam that you are if you're just having a disaster, and everyone else is just... Michael 12:39 It was also a horrible day, because I wrote maths pure two in the morning, the day before, I'd written history, paper three, which is the main paper. And the day before that I'd written the main physics paper, and it was also my birthday. So it was like at the end, all right. Jamie Beaton 12:58 Well, I guess you probably you don't you don't want to go and have a dinner, you just want to keep studying. Exactly. I don't remember my birthday. I guess you can celebrate once you're in. And so now you've got a bit of a benefit get between now and September, or so, you know, when do you what do you plan on doing with this, with this time you have any exciting plans. Michael 13:16 So, you know, I've really lost quite a bit of it. I mean, I've been out of school for six months, I'm doing a bit of SAT tutoring with Crimson at the moment, which is, you know, quite fun and entertaining. And it's just keeping me you know, sort of in check and not letting my academics run away from me. And then I'm also I'm just, you know, trying to get involved and see as many friends as I can that on staying that aren't going overseas so that I can try and stay in contact with them. Jamie Beaton 13:42 That's a really cool question, actually. What are some of the trends in terms of the African High Schoolers aspirations on the world stage? So it varies by school a little bit, but what are you seeing as far as patterns, you know, who tends to go overseas? What are their aspirations is the UK most popular? What's the US like? Just give me a sense of what it's like through your lens. Michael 14:00 So, you know, our school is quite a heavy percentage of it as a boarding school. So a lot of the borders come from within South Africa, but there's also a healthy contingent from East Africa and Southern Africa. So Zambians, Kenyans, Tanzanians, and a lot of the foreigners tend to go to English universities. There's a very small contingent from from our school that is going to the states and sort of a much stronger community with in the UK. So I'll have friends in Durham Exeter, London. Yeah. So there's more I kind of can't think of any now but that that's sort of the trend and then a lot of the South African students end up going to the main universities, NSA. Jamie Beaton 14:49 Like UCT and stuff? Michael 14:51 Yeah, UCT Stellenbosch, Tuks, the University of Pretoria that is, so that that's where they mostly dispose to and then again It depends where they get in because some degrees, some University is obviously more challenging than others. Jamie Beaton 15:06 Thanks a lot of sense. And then as far as like, aspirations where people want to be based, there's lots of this, you know, young talent sets, they overseas, I guess for most of their adult life, or these guys typically come back and want to do things like government when they're a bit older or what what is the usual kind of pattern? Michael 15:23 There isn't really a usual kind of pattern. A lot of a lot of people that are educated in South Africa will stand South Africa. Again, it vary so much from year to year and person to person. And but I do think quite a large portion of the people that go overseas tend to stay overseas, not necessarily where they studied, but they don't often come back. Jamie Beaton 15:48 Well, awesome. Okay. And then I guess last question for me, if you went back to high school to do it all over again, would you change anything? I guess the outcome was pretty amazing. But, you know, anything, you wouldn't change for it for a clone and rewinding the clock five years? Michael 16:02 Look, I you know, I think I had one main objective in high school and now is to get into Oxford. So, you know, there's, there's nothing I really would have changed. If I if I had to have changed one thing, I probably wouldn't have done that as levels I, I did, I would have just done probably maybe five air levels and started focusing on those exams at the beginning of grade 11 rather than focusing on getting as levels and then eight levels. Jamie Beaton 16:31 Got it, wise, Okay, awesome. Well, a huge congrats on your success. I think you're gonna have a real blast over there. PPE is really Oxford's most famous degree. And I think yeah, you'll have a real blast. So congrats on what's been a wild High School adventure. Michael 16:45 Thank you very, very much. Jamie Beaton 16:46 And hopefully we can meet up. I'm currently finishing my D Phil at St. John's College in Oxford, although it's all been remote for the last like year, but I might see you on campus sometimes soon. Michael 16:55 That'd be amazing. Jamie Beaton 16:56 Nice to meet you. Michael 16:57 You too. Bye.

#4 How I Got In - Duke and UCL Admit Talks Managing US & UK Applications and Starting a Drone Club

🗓 MAY 12, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:05 Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of the How I Got In podcast as part of the Top of the Class podcast of course. I'm delighted to be joined by Wayne all the way from London. Are you based in London, Wayne? Wayne 00:30 I am I go to school just outside London at a boarding school, but I'm currently at home in Surrey. Podcast Host 00:39 Well, it's great you're available and we've made the time zones work. And we've made it all work, which is fantastic. Wayne, welcome to the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Wayne 00:49 Yeah, sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Wayne. I am a sixth form student at Harrow School in London, UK. And I've been boarding for the past 10 years. So I've been in an all boys boarding school since I was eight. I moved over to this country originally from China, back when I was eight. And yeah, I've lived here since in terms of academics, I am taking I'm doing the a level curriculum. And I'm taking four levels at the moment. So triple science and maths. And I'm predicted a stars in all four of them. And in terms of sports, I'm a big rugby fan. So watching, I'm playing as well as I play squash in my free time as well. And talking about my free time, I like to I like building drones in my free time as well as just to tinker with a bit of engineering as well. Podcast Host 01:42 Fantastic building drones is something that I didn't think many students could do unless like you had all the access to all the equipment and parts. How do you come across all that? Wayne 01:52 Yeah, so we Yeah, that's very true. You know, to build a drone, you do need quite a lot of equipment and parts and quite specialized parts. So when I got to her back when I was 13, I realized we didn't have any of those. So I started the school's drone society, and sort of requested and reached out for funding. And slowly but surely, we built up an arsenal of equipment and parts, you know, specialized parts for drone society. And you're now we started during society with three members. And now we're up to about 35, with weekly meetings and lessons and lectures, often aimed at getting younger kids to get in that doorstep to like, sort of introduce them into the world of engineering and drones. And then they can use drones society as a place of discussion and as a stepping stone for their own endeavors. Podcast Host 02:44 Wow, that's awesome. So I'm going to guess that was one of your main extracurriculars that you use when applying to the US, and you also apply to the UK. But let's go with the US first and foremost as you have as we just talked OFF AIR committed to Duke University, which is awesome. So going through that application process to the US and extracurricular profile wise and everything else. Was it mainly engineering, drone society has been like the main thrust of your application. Were there other elements? Wayne 03:13 Um, there was there were definitely other elements. I think I had a pretty I kept myself pretty busy just even before thinking about applications. You know, I there was a lot going on at school. But I say my main extracurricular was a bioethics competition, which I coined two, two and a bit years ago now. And it was a debating competition focused in bioethics between the different schools around how the different states called around our school, and it was a community outreach focused program. So sort of giving opportunities to students who may not have had the debating experience and chance to debate into addressing sort of topical bioethical questions that might not be touched upon in class. Podcast Host 04:01 Right, and so bioethical questions could be like, Is it right to clone someone? Or, you know, these kinds of things? Right? Wayne 04:09 Yeah. So I mean, we, we had a board of sort of the school biology society, we sat down and thought about the emotions that we could use. And some of them we came up with, you know, there were some sensitive topics or eugenics. And specifically, then there were also topical topics like the COVID vaccine, and the vaccine distribution and all that stuff. But there were also more sort of hypothetical questions like, I remember one motion was, this, this House believes that we should not be able to live forever, even if we had the choice to and the ethical implications of being able to be, you know, become essentially immortal. So those are some very, very interesting topics that, you know, the boys and the girls get into very heated discussions about Podcast Host 04:52 so when you were applying to the US if you could sum up your kind of Wayne is a student who is this This this in this like a couple of different elements to your application. How do you think the admission officers ended up reviewing your application as Wayne 05:08 I think I would say Wayne is a passionate and multifaceted shouldn't in terms of with many diverse interests and a specific focus on sport and debating. Podcast Host 05:22 Okay, so rugby was like a big part of your application you feel as well? Wayne 05:28 Yeah, I definitely think I mean, rugby is a big part of what I do to sort of keep myself balanced in terms of academia. And, you know, rugby is what I use to form lots of friendships, you know, and a lot of my socializing goes comes from rugby, as well, as you know, that takes my mind off things of the academic pressure. And that's how I balance this sort of work play lifestyle. Podcast Host 05:49 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's an interesting application to have that biochemistry and rugby. Usually the two don't go together, I guess. I mean, generalizing. I used to play rugby as well. But generalizing against rugby players, they may be your back not afford, what position? Do you play? Wayne 06:04 I actually play flanker. , Podcast Host 06:06 Okay that's somewhere in between. So we'll give you a pass on that one. But yeah, so it's interesting application. But where are you applying for sports scholarships at all in the US? Because I know a couple of schools do it. No. Okay. Not at all. And so it's mainly just on the academic route. And you apply to a couple of schools in the US, you ended up getting into Duke, you've committed to Duke, what are you looking forward to most about studying there? Wayne 06:29 Oh, I am looking forward to the sort of sense of community that Duke has, you know, that's what really drew me. I remember getting in and, you know, I was so excited getting in but the, you know, an hour after I had the letter of acceptance, you know, there was a welcome party on zoom, obviously, you know, I can't fly over. But you know, there's a welcome party and the whole event, everyone was very excited and very friendly. And it was sort of like I had been invited into this and absorbed into this family to this community that was buzzing with life. So you know, just talking to people, I guess that's what I'm most excited about, and sort of getting to know that background and what they're there for and what they want to study or what they want to do, and all that stuff. Yeah. Podcast Host 07:11 Is it a pretty usual path for students at Harrow to head to the US? Wayne 07:15 I would say about, so we're a school of about 160 boys per year. So about 800 boys over the five years. And I would say about 50 of us head off each year to the US that number is growing with our recent success in the US universities. And I'd say we send about two or three to Duke each year. Podcast Host 07:36 Okay, fantastic. You've got a couple of mates there. But it's going to be meeting a whole lot of new people from all around the world. I know there's a couple of students from Australia who have headed across to Duke. And it's a really fantastic community. So I'm sure you really love it there. But let's talk a little bit about your your essays as well, because obviously, that's a crucial part. And something that I've been discussing with other students on these calls, is the idea that at these top universities, academics, extracurriculars, all pretty much across the board very strong. And at some point, it's the essay that starts differentiating candidates, in a sense. So what did you end up writing on? And what was that brainstorming process like for you? 08:17 I think actually write essays were probably the hardest part of my application, you know, the most difficult and the thing that I spent the most time on, I had a difficult time brainstorming. And I was stuck between two, two main ideas. But I eventually, I eventually wrote on the topic of ice cream, Ashley, as my main common app essay, I love it. And I linked that to a memory that I had of my first flight. outside of China, coming to incoming over to England, I remember, it was 3am in the morning, and I was, I was a and I was sitting there and I was eating some Haagen Daz strawberry ice cream. And that sort of I was in the air and not knowing what was ahead of me, but I was, you know, the excitement was there. And I sort of compare that to where I am now and sort of looking forward into college and that excitement as well. And sort of seeing and I use the essay as a way an ice cream as a way of transitioning, saying how the ice cream has stayed the same, you know, all these years, but you know, I the, you know, me who is eating at the time is completely different to who I am now. And, you know, all the changes along the way and all the you know, all the experiences that I've had. Podcast Host 09:29 Well, that's such a interesting essay topic. And I can understand that it took a while to brainstorm to it because when I'm thinking about writing a personal essay, it doesn't really jump out at me to take an essay topic that from when I was like eight years old. So when you're working with your Crimson strategist, you need some convincing or if they need some convincing as to this being the right topic for you. 09:53 I definitely needed some convincing I am I think, you know, I remember my first meeting with Chima, my essay strategist, my writing specialist, he, you know, he was asking me these things trying to get to know me a little bit more, and asking these very sort of direct questions, some of the, you know, things that I haven't really thought about and things that I really needed to slow down and be like, Whoa, like, I need to think about this. And, you know, like, it did, it did get pretty emotional. The first time I talked about this stuff, and you know, because it was something that I had, you know, buried in the back of my mind, something I'd never really thought about, never really had time to think about. So, I think I definitely needed some convincing to let myself speak out about this stuff, and, you know, sort of opened up about my experiences. Because it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a smooth ride all the way from a, I came here with no English background. So, you know, speaking a single word of English, and then I was, you know, obviously straight into boarding school. So, that transition process wasn't easy. And it's not something that, you know, I go back to very often in my mind, so I it was definitely challenging, but I think it was overall very positive, though, you know, my essay. Podcast Host 11:07 Yeah, fantastic. I always find it fascinating for students who are writing a very personal essay topic with someone, right? Or like, with the support or with the feedback of someone who I guess, you know, even though you've had a couple conversations, you essentially don't know all that well. So it's a bit of like a trust factor, that this person is going to kind of hold these personal stories and treat them with respect, because they mean a lot to you. And hopefully, they mean a lot to them as well, in terms of that kind of feedback back and forth draft re draft type of scenario. What was that all like? Because for me, I always find that I'd be a little bit defensive, if I was telling my own story. Wayne 11:45 Oh, yeah. No, Chima was great. drass redrafts. I think that was definitely quite a lot of changes. In the first couple drafts, I think the main common essay went through nothing sure of nine drafts, like gladly read this, you know, the main topic, the main idea stay the same. But uh, you know, it was a very, very rough, let's say, you know, it was a very rough diamond, the very start, you know, but, you know, with these drafts and redrafted his comments, I made changes, and then, you know, I sort of counted his comments, he'd query this, I would sort of answer it and sort of resolve his queries. And over time, you know, it became what it is now. And I'm proud of it. Podcast Host 12:25 Yeah, fantastic. Which is, I guess, at the end of the day, if you can look at it and say that you're proud of it, then that's the main thing. So that was your common app essay. But you also had to write a couple of your supplementary essays as well, which I think is always an interesting opportunity for universities to get to know the candidates better. Did you come across any like curveball questions, many of the colleges that you applied to that you made that potentially made you think, like this university is more for me, because of the questions that they're asking. Wayne 12:56 Yeah, I definitely. There were definitely some curveballs. I think mainly juice ones were relatively easy, actually. Well, relatively straightforward. There was only one option one compulsory one of why Duke. So that was quite straightforward. Yep. And then two compulsory, optional ones, of which I did one of shower perspective, shares something that you that's changed your perspective, I think. And that was quite straightforward as well. I think the most interesting one I had was, it was about it was a short response questions. So I think Yale had the 3200 character ones, where it would ask you, you had to teach like a course at Yale, what would your course be called? And give details of your course? And what would you teach? and Princeton had things like what brings you joy? And those, you know, on the surface, that that thing that looks quite easy, you know, watching Netflix or whatever, like that, that was quite a straightforward question. But when you really think about it, it becomes it becomes a lot more complicated. And then you start diving into it. And, you know, you want to write a lot of things, but you've only got about 50 words. So that is definitely a you know, those were definitely challenging. And I think, you know, one of the most challenging ones, one of the longer ones was also Princeton's when it asks you to share a time when you had a conversation with a person about a difficult topic, and how you dealt with that, and how you incorporated the knowledge from that conversation into your into into the future. So that was very, that was, you know, pretty thought provoking. Podcast Host 14:34 Yeah, well, I guess they're trying to create a harmonious community, but a community that grows together in a sense, and I think every college has that goal, essentially. So a question like that is probably angled at that. But I'm interested in the Why Duke one, because I know it's quite simple and straightforward, but a lot of people, I think, struggle with some of these essay topics and they're quite pervasive. Across all the universities, a lot of universities ask the why this unit Question. So what approach Did you take to it? And I asked that because earlier you said it was very community focused after you got in. Yeah, this is before you got in, right? This is in the application stage. So at that stage, you didn't really know too much, perhaps about the community side of things. So what was your angle in that Why Duke essay? Wayne 15:20 So I started the Why Duke Essay, I had a little bit of affiliation with Duke. So over the summer, the year before I applied to college, I worked with a research group at Yale, a bio engineering research group. And we wrote a review paper that's currently under review and about to be published at active biomaterials. And actually, the, the main source, the professor that was at the sort of front, bleeding edge of this technology, technological research was at Duke. So I reached out to him over the summer, and we're sort of we sort of had a conversation, and I really wanted to get to know him a little bit more and see, you know, see him teach and see him, you know, because he taught classes at Duke. So that was my I sort of started off that that was my way in, I think. And on top of that, my,one of the previous graduates at Harrow, one of my friends, who graduated three years earlier before me, who was in the exact same position as me, you're applying to the UK and applying to the US actually got in and went to Duke and instead at Duke right now, so I reached out to him before applying and sort of, you know, talk to him about the community spirit and all that stuff. And, you know, I read up about all these crazy events that you would do, you know, tenting, outside of the basketball stadium for eight weeks at a time, that sort of stuff. So while I that didn't necessarily get a real feel about, you know, the, about the people in the real community, I definitely sort of sensed it, whether that is on their website, or talking to David, my, my friend who's already there, you know, a Duke alum, I definitely sense the community. And that's what I focused on. Podcast Host 17:03 Fantastic. Well, yeah, that's always good to have a bit of a insight from alarm, etc, to the university, which is awesome. Let's talk a little bit about the UK because undertaking two applications to two countries that are renowned for like the two most in depth applications that you can possibly do, either the US or the UK is a challenge. So what made you decide to put your hat in both camps and and try and make sure that you had as many applications out as possible? And at any point, did you think this is not worth it? I'd rather just commit to one or the other. Wayne 17:37 Yeah, I, I decided to apply to the US after a summer program at Yale after doing spending two weeks a year or during the year Young Global Scholars Program in 2019. where, you know, that was my first exposure to us University style teaching, and you know, how it works in the campus and all that stuff. And I really liked it, I was a, you know, I went into this summer program, not completely oblivious of what the US style of teaching and university style was like, and I loved it, you know, I had the best two weeks of my time of my life. So from that point onwards, I sort of decided that I was going to put in a couple of us applications just for the, you know, I aimed high for the US and had the UK, you know, as sort of, I wouldn't say a backup option, but definitely a safety net that to carry me if things didn't work out in the States. And by applying to Oxford, obviously, Oxford requires a early us, you know, submission, as well as interview preparation and stuff like that. So that was definitely difficult. But I think, you know, I got ahead of it, I made sure that when it came to crunch time for Oxford, all my us stuff was done. And when you know, when it was really crunch time for us, and you know, writing essays, Oxford will be within a walled off. So I still had time to juggle the two together. So I think, was it stressful at times? Yes, I think so. As you know, as the deadlines drew closer and closer, but I think these two applications are actually quite well spaced apart. If you manage your time as well, and start early enough that you you know, you definitely have time to apply to both. I think it's definitely doable. Podcast Host 19:17 Was it an agonizing decision then to kind of weigh up your UK options and Duke and be like, oh, who where am I going to go? It wasn't an easy option for you to be like, I'm definitely going to Duke? Wayne 19:28 Oh, yeah. It was definitely very difficult for me to weigh up University College London and Duke University. You know, since both the great universities and you know, both a top of their field are what they do. But in the end, you know, there are pros and cons to both universities, you know, going to Duke would be you know, completely uprooting my life and moving to another country, you know, it'd be all new and I'd have to start from scratch essentially, whereas London is only about half an hour. way. So, you know, it was very familiar. And I, you know, I've been in this country for 10 years. But at the same time, I decided to go to Duke because I wasn't exactly sure on biomedical engineering or biomedical sciences, I'm sorry. You know, I know I like this sort of stuff. And I like, and I'd like to pursue a career somewhere medicine related. But University sort of had the game the options gave me options to try other things and the potential to switch around and the potential to be more flexible, I guess. And also with the opportunity to apply to med school, where as I wouldn't get that at UCL, I would have to apply for postgraduate medicine, which in the UK is very, very rare, whereas in the US, it's very common. Podcast Host 20:49 Yeah, I love that you had that forward planning aspect. Like it's not just about your immediate undergrad, it's about what comes next, potentially? And what are your chances on either side to make that happen and that swayed you towards Duke? So that's clever thinking, did you end up discussing that with your strategist at all? Or do you make the decision on your own? Wayne 21:08 No, I just I ended up discussing it with my parents quite extensively talking to professor's of both universities and you know, trying to figure out the logistical things and see see if going to Duke was even logistically possible with visas and fees and everything like that. But no, we made that decision sort of in house. It was quite a tight schedule as I was going back to school and everything. So yeah. Podcast Host 21:32 Yeah, had to kind of scramble there a little bit. But I think you've made a very sound decision for sure. For students who are about to go through this application process, either the US or the UK, what advice would you give them based on your experiences? Wayne 21:46 Start early, I think, and I think you should sort of do your research whenever you can. So whenever you get a spare moment, even if it's 10 minutes, five minutes, just have a read of you know, where you want to go the programs you want to do sort of the extracurriculars and the clubs and societies that each university offers. And write your essays early, you know, start thinking about what you're going to write constantly, you never know, when an idea is going to pop into your head, I remember, I just finished work for Oxford, for prepping for an Oxford interview one night, and it was very late, it was about 2am, I was just in the shower, and an idea popped in one of the essays. So I cut my shower short and jumped out of the shower and rushed back to write for another, like, an hour and a half. And, you know, there it was, there was a draft of the essay. So I think, you know, having having that stuff constantly on your mind is, is good, I recommend that just because you never know when an idea is going to pop into your mind. And as with writing, I would say, again, start early, there is an awful lot to write for the US compared to the UK. And it sort of creeps up on you, you think you have time. And suddenly, you know, you have like five essays to write in a week. And, you know, I always think leave yourself a little bit a margin of error with these things. But yeah, and one tip about writing is just write honestly, you know, you know yourself best. And you know, you can talk, talk about yourself and write about yourself the best when you're telling the truth. And you're really talking about yourself as a character, rather than making up facts or whatever. So I think the admission is can definitely tell when you're being truthful. And even if it's, you know, something embarrassing or something not not so glamorous. I think they appreciate the honesty. Podcast Host 23:40 Yeah, 100%. And I think it's upon students to not fall into the trap of rehashing the highlights of their life or their resume or whatever it might be. And actually just speaking honestly, to try and let the admissions officers know like who you are really, they're not just like your achievements because the achievements have their moment in the application, no doubt. But the essay is the chance to really kind of bare your soul a little bit and and see if you're a good fit for the university. But even though it's some fantastic advice, and while I'm wishing you all the best of luck when you go to Duke, thank you for giving us a bit of an insight into your academics, although we didn't touch on the SAT, did you do that? Wayne 24:19 I took the ACT I took the twice I and Duke super scores. So I was super scored up to 34. This was right before so I took the ACT very early as well. So right before the pandemic hit, so I was lucky enough to have a score and get that out the way before everything sort of shut down. Podcast Host 24:37 Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's a good tactic there for sure. Particularly with curfews, hip knee happening like that was the only way to go about it. Really. Yeah. But anyway, wind it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show and discussing all things applications to both the US and the UK. wishing you all the best of luck in the US and enjoy the last couple of months there in the UK. Hopefully things Stay COVID normal as most as you know, as much as possible. And yeah, you get over there to check for some in person classes, hopefully. Wayne 25:08 Hopefully so.

#3 How I Got In - Wharton and Yale Admit Talks Subjects, Extracurriculars and More

🗓 MAY 5, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:02 Hello and welcome to another episode of the top of the class Podcast. I am delighted to be joined by Oscar and Mason, a duo who successfully well, Oscar, I guess you did the bulk of the work, but you have gained admission into UPenn and Yale. Welcome to the show. Oscar, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Oscar 00:38 Hi, Alex, thanks so much for having me. So I'm a recent graduate from high school here in Sydney, Australia, where I live following the usual HSC format. And I'm looking around August or September of this year to be heading over to the US now. Podcast Host 00:53 Right and which university have you committed to? Oscar 00:57 I've ended up committing on UPenn specifically the Wharton School. Podcast Host 01:01 Okay, fantastic. Now, Mason, I can see you want to chime in on that? What are your thoughts on that? Mason 01:07 Oscar, it was so great working with you. I'm so excited for you going and she's a new pen. From the very beginning, I thought you were a person who was most likely going to get a lot of offers. And so it was really good to see all of your hard work pay off and get the offers that you did. Podcast Host 01:25 Yeah, well, I mean, obviously, it's a massive shout out. I must be like a proud moment for a strategist to say when those offers do start coming in. For you, Mason, what made you think that Oscar was going to get a lot of offers? Mason 01:39 For me, I get a pretty good sense of somebody's ambition and drive pretty early on. And the ivy League's themselves are really competitive institutions for obvious reasons. And a lot of what I find for Ivy League candidates is the ambition. So for a lot of students who need a lot of direction that's not quite a good match for Ivy League's because the ivy League's require a little bit of direction and in the students ambition to go above and beyond. And so with Oscar, I would say like, hey, I want to see this. I want to see like one more leadership opportunity. During our next meeting, he would say, Okay, well, I did this, this and this. And he just really went above and beyond with a little nudge. He went the extra mile. It was great. Podcast Host 02:24 Yeah, fantastic. Well, for yourself, Oscar, obviously, if Mason saying that ambition, that ambition has to come from somewhere. So for you What was the driving motivation to get to some of these top colleges in the US? Oscar 02:37 I'd say it's a few things. But in terms of just that ambition and drive, I'd say I try not to let myself do anything half pie, I don't enjoy thinking that I could have gone a bit further. So I like to push as far as I can. And then I think regarding going to university, that was part of it. So knowing that there was a possibility of going to such prestigious institutions just made me want to even more and set myself a goal to push through that extra level. So I think that that's where I came from that desire to always go as far as I possibly could and not let not leave any leaf unturned really. Podcast Host 03:11 Yeah. Well, what's the experience as an international student? You've been from Sydney, Australia, looking at US colleges as a possibility, like where do you even start with that idea? Oscar 03:20 That's a great question. I think that before I started talking with Crimson, I had very little idea or direction about it. Of course, I'd heard about these institutions like Yale and Harvard, and Wharton. But to actually understand the application process was something quite foreign. Given that here in Australia, essentially, if you get the required data, you're into the University of your choice, in most cases. So to have to understand the fact that there were essays involved standardized testing, you needed to demonstrate leadership ability through extracurriculars, all that was very novel. So it was definitely a strange process, trying to understand it at first, but then read through that the guidance of various names of crimson like Mason, it just made a lot clearer. And then to the end of how I first started understanding the US system and got involved with it. My uncle lives in New Zealand, and he had heard about Crimson as a company, because I think his son had worked with a colleague of Jamie's so then he introduced Crimson to me. And that's how I found out about the process and learned that with a company like crimson, It then became possible. Podcast Host 04:26 Yeah, well, the word of mouth from across the ditch there, which is fantastic. Yeah, it's an interesting thing that I think a lot of students who work with us or Crimson, tend to try and keep it a little bit under their hat whilst they're actually going through the application process because they're like, Oh, it's kind of my secret weapon type of thing. My like, hidden advantage. But it's great that you know, after you gain admission, you're like, hey, yeah, this is something that I ended up doing and it actually was really helpful. But yourself Mason when you're working with a student who has ambition, but not much know how have the US college application process. Where do you usually start? Mason 05:03 Um, generally speaking, I start right during the first meeting, asking a student, what are your target institutions? What's the end goal for you and your family? And for Oscar who's like, 'Yeah, like, I want to study business, maybe', he was kind of not sure if you wanted to go a business or economics. He was also really interested in humanities as well. And so we had like discussion about 'Okay, well, let's first discover major and then see what types of institutions', when talking about the overall US process, I started that in the very, very first call explaining what actually goes on applications because it is so different from country to country. So talking about the holistic review process, right out the gate, I'm getting a sense for major potential and institution potential. And then from there. In subsequent meetings, I normally show students applications of successful students who had gotten offers from these top schools before, once Oscar and I did that it hopefully made it clear what a successful application looked like. And normally find that there's two outcomes of showing a student a successful application to the ivy League's, the first is someone gets really fired up and is like, Okay, this is going to be competitive, but I want to like rise to the challenge and, and make it happen. Or the other path is actually, this is not quite what I thought was gonna be the amount of work required and the holistic aspect. So let's go ahead and reassess. And pivot if you will. For Oscar, it was more, let's rise to the challenge and, and keep going full throttle. Podcast Host 06:38 Fantastic. And when you did first get Oscar assigned to you, what did you say is some of his strengths, particularly in that holistic aspect of the application? And what did you say are some of the areas that needed a little bit of work? Mason 06:50 Like the first onboarding process, I wouldn't say I had too much information going into that first meeting. And Oscar has a very, like, laid back attitude, which is fantastic. So I was like, Okay, well, let's see how much he can accomplish from now until our next call. When we first started working together, I knew he had really good foundations for his extracurricular profile. And I wanted to see how much he could level those up. And he leveled all of them up to an amazing extent, even though he's like, very laid back and like chill when, when speaking, he really does have like, a good drive. And so with a little nudge, he would level up an extracurricular activity to something that I would not be really expecting from call to call. So he like, wrote a Latin resource guide. He started his own business, like all of these types of things, and was able to start scaling at a really high level. And so one area that I think we needed to, I guess, quote, unquote, work on was just testing. But that was something that most students always need to work on is preparing for exams. And so we just kind of strategize what his testing timeline was going to look like. And then Oscar being Oscar, okay, register for this exam. During the next call, you register for the exam, he had his his study books, and he was doing practice exams on his own accord. Podcast Host 08:10 Well, that's fantastic to have a student who, I guess understands what needs to be done. I know that in some cases, as a strategist, there is a lot of prompting and pushing and reminding and everything. But sounds like you didn't have to do too much with that with Oscar, which is a good situation for you to be in for Oscar going into the last year or so of high school. What was it like to take on more things more extracurriculars, more responsibilities in that final kind of 12 to 18 months of high school? Like, how did you manage that? Oscar 08:42 I think a lot of it came down to forward planning. As Mason said, it was about having a really formal and rigid time table or timeline, which meant that I was getting testing done in year 11, or in some cases in the attend. It meant that I was leveling up different extracurriculars before year 12, which meant that kamiah 12, even though COVID disrupted us so much, it meant that I could just focus on studies and what the HSC was, and really pursuing that as far as I could. But I would say that there were points throughout year 12, particularly at the start of it, where it wasn't as intense as, as the HSC would then become that it was about just having good time management and finding a balance between them. I think to some extent being at home made it easier. So it meant that I could easily switch from being on a zoom call with my teachers to then working a bit further on communicating with online booksellers, or sell out my resource book. So it meant that I could shift between activities more easily. But at the same time it did, I'd say being at home so much did make it maybe a bit monotonous. So and to that extent, I think motivation came down to just know that there was a goal inside and then if I kept pushing then I would be able to reach it. Podcast Host 09:59 Yeah, fantastic. And you did level up your extracurriculars across a couple of different areas. Can you kind of sum up a few of the main things that you focused on? When you heard that you had to, you know, work on your extracurricular side? Obviously, the Latin resource, we can go into that a little bit. Were there other kind of opportunities that you were able to take on within a week's notice, say, like, you talk to your teacher and be like, hey, look, I'm pretty keen to up my involvement in this particular club or organization, or whatever it might be like, Can you give us a bit of a rundown of your extracurriculars? Oscar 10:29 Sure. So I'd say one of the key ones I ended up doing, particularly in year 11, and then leading into year 12, was founding my school's linguistics club. So I'd always had an interest there. But then founding a club at year 10. And below wasn't much of a thing of my school. So then once I got to year 11, I essentially put in the work to get it into place to get a solid group of kids who would come each week to not only participate in linguistic teaching from a teacher who had actually done a linguistics degree, but then also to participate in linguistics problems, which was interesting. So that that would involve being given problems in languages you'd never heard of, and then having to use information, you get to decipher them. So that was something I started off with. And then in terms of leveling that up, I ended up using the linguistics club to create a linguistics festival at school. So over a week, and that was, I think, the week before we got locked down or shut down for COVID. So I was incredibly lucky for that I involved members in the club in running many lectures and running food event and running a flag display. So that was about kind of taking the foundations that I had already had. And then with Mason's advice, working out how to push it a step further. Podcast Host 11:46 Yeah, that's a very lucky outcome to do that just before COVID here, but yeah, crazy, crazy time, but amazing work, and really kind of make the most out of an idea. I think that's always the key right to have one core idea. And then how many different ways can you expand on that idea that makes an impact? And that's not just like box ticking, but it's something you're actually passionate about, right? So are you going to be doing some kind of linguistics or a version of that at university? Oscar 12:15 I'm definitely intending to, while Wharton is specifically a Business School, a big draw of the US system is its liberal arts approach, which means I'll get a lot of different things. throughout school, I did three different languages. And even now, while I'm starting off at University here in Australia, which I started, before I found out about results from the US. I've been doing languages here as well. So I definitely intend to keep that interest up, which is great, because it can be much more of a intellectual pursuit, while other things can be a bit more practically focused. Podcast Host 12:47 Yeah. Now, Mason, I've been at Crimson for a couple of years, five years now. And I don't think in my time I've heard of any student do a linguistics related extracurricular. Was that a unique card to play? And is that something that you thought would catch the admissions officers attention? Because it is quite unique? Mason 13:07 That's a good question. I find that for extracurricular profiles overall, I always like to see where a student's interests are, and then go in that direction. So with linguistics, I would say that one kind of came to fruition after Oscar's interested in Latin and French, and then kind of just kind of spiraled, it was more of like the interest of well, why are you interested in languages so much? He's like, Oh, well, I like these things about languages and language acquisition and how you study language and how it's used. And so the idea really came from Oscar about, Hey, I kind of want to start this linguistics club. Fantastic. So my role in that was how can we level that up to have even more of an impact on your application? It wasn't necessarily like the strategy to be, like, different to how that it was more of just following your gut and your intuition for what you have as interests? And how can we go ahead and package that to have impact on your applications? That's kind of the the route that I take, because there's so many different interests that people have, the way that I think of it is how can we use this to our advantage in the process? Podcast Host 14:18 Yeah, absolutely. And for yourself, Oscar, you not only did the festival, but you ended up writing a Latin resource, which you ended up selling as a book, I understand. And then Mason, you mentioned something about like Oscar starting a business too. So tell me more about these things? Because that sounds like a lot on your plate at that stage. Oscar 14:35 Yeah, well, the Latin resource book actually came out of me making notes just for the HSC. So I initially was trying to summarize Latin grammar for myself, just so that at any point I could reference it and go back and check something. And what I found was that there was nothing really that just went straight to the point on Grandma, that it always had, whether it be stories or additional superfluous information. That wasn't right. Quiet. So I ended up typing up the notes and then looked into the self publishing process found it wasn't actually as challenging as I thought it would be. And then I was able to communicate with the self publishing house in order to get myself center trial book soared in person, which was incredible. And then I ended up ordering, I think, 100 copies the first time. And then I sold out of them in, I think, the first three weeks, which was really exciting. So that was through online sales through friends or family, then also, I've managed to get it into a language specialty bookstore in the city in Sydney, which was really exciting. And again, all of this was in the months and weeks leading up before COVID. So that was very, very timely. Yep. Podcast Host 15:46 Yeah, absolutely. And is that the business side of things as well, like the book selling, or is there another thing in addition to that? Oscar 15:54 There was one other thing, which was this actually started more in I'd say, year nine, or 10. But then grew a bit more quickly, actually, in COVID, which was a strange turn of events. But I had started a kids party business of sorts, which involves different challenge games and activities. And I really enjoyed the process of building it and changing i think that that led to my interest in business and entrepreneurship, which helps guide me towards my major. And what that involved, it started off with me running small events for friends and family, like Amazing Race style things around the neighborhood. And then I realized that I could actually package them up somehow. So then I ended up running a few parties in person myself. But then I realized that because of school, I wouldn't have time to do that, particularly with the various locations I'd have to go out to, and it would take up essentially a whole day, by the time it's done. So then I started packaging up the boxes to send out to people for them to run themselves. And that worked for a bit. And then of course, COVID came. So then I thought at first, when COVID came that that was gonna be it like, sadly that that extracurricular is done, because in person events can't be run too much more. But then I realized that I could still use those same events or activities, but then shaped them such that they could be done at homes so that people could use them as sort of a quarantine entertainment kit. What surprised me was that after packaging them up, they ended up selling better than the other ones. So it was an interesting process. And I really enjoyed the idea that I could grow something like that. And yeah, that's definitely led me to want to pursue business and entrepreneurship on a greater level. Podcast Host 17:32 Yeah, fantastic. Well, so many different ideas going on there. But one of the main main takeaways for me was that you have been building an extracurricular profile from like, eight, nine. And I think that's really key. And something that particularly here in Australia, I think a lot of students don't particularly understand that like it's a four or five year process to really build this out. And for yourself Mason as a strategist looking at Oscar's profile, and understanding that he's had a long involvement in these extracurriculars. Does that immediately make you feel as though he's got a better chance, then perhaps some other students who might bloom late, you know, like, start an organization when they're in year 11, and 12. But only do it for say, six to 12 months before they apply? Mason 18:18 Yeah, that's a really good question. Like I said, when I first started working with Oscar, he had a lot of really good foundational activities that I knew that we could scale. And it was a matter of how how much time, effort and capacity Oscar had to actually scale everything. And the way that I always explain priorities is, number one is always going to be academics. If your extracurriculars are taking too much time, and your academics are going to suffer. That is not the way to go. That's the first round of review from admissions officers. So it's a holistic thing when a student is interested in the ivy League's It's alright, full throttle on all fronts. So to answer your question, yes, the longevity is important. But it's not everything when it comes to an extracurricular profile. If you have a good foundation, it makes it easier to scale everything up. And if you have a diverse set of foundational items to build on, it makes it easier. But it's not the end all be all, like you can still have a successful extracurricular profile focusing on the last year or last two years. But capacity becomes difficult. If you're doing testing, standardized testing in your final year, and you're needing to organize a TED talk, found your own business, do all of these extracurricular things like it's not possible? We're human, we need to sleep. And we need to, you know, take care of business. We just don't have that much that much time and capacity to do all of these things in one year. So yes, longevity is important, but it's more a matter of how much capacity you have for everything. Podcast Host 19:58 Yeah. And if you can spread that capacity or spread that workload over more years, then I guess you get the results that that Oscar has got, which is fantastic. Now, Oscar, let's talk about the academics. Because obviously, that's an area of interest. And Mason, thank you for providing a lovely segue there. So let's talk about your HSC. Some of the subjects you did I know for students around the world who are listening, they might not be too familiar with the HSC. Basically, it's one of the various state run curriculums here in Australia. But give us a rundown of the subjects you did. And then if we can talk about your standardized testing as well, either the SAT or ACT. So yeah, over to you. Oscar 20:37 Yeah. So in doing the HSC, I did English advanced for unit, or exception two maths, extension latin, extension ancient Greek and continuous French. So definitely focus more on the languages there at the end. And I actually picked up French again, in turn one after not having done in 10, four of the previous year, because I just felt like I wanted to do a bit more. So I picked that up. And then that ended up taking me through to the end of the HSC. What I benefited from in terms of my subject choices was that a lot of it kind of built on the same content. So when you do extension subjects, although it might be three or four units, it doesn't always feel like you're studying three or four units, because it's using the same skills and just applying them in novel contexts or applying them to new sorts of problems. So I found that while I took on a fair number of units, it was manageable, because I could build upon what I already had. And then in terms of standardized testing, I did two AP courses in year 10. So that was part of getting through activities earlier on. So I did psychology and computer science and you attend? And then I did the general LSAT. I sent it twice in year 11. And then I also did a submitted two Subject Tests, which were math level two and Latin. Podcast Host 22:06 Fantastic. And is there any indication of rough score range that you're going to be able to provide in that? Oscar 22:13 For which ones? Podcast Host 22:14 For SAT for instance, because that's more well known for the audience? Oscar 22:18 Sure. So SAT, pretty sure was a 1570 for that one. Podcast Host 22:23 Wow, smashed it out of the park. So for those of you who don't know, SAT out of 1600, 1570, very, very strong. And obviously, that for you, Mason must have ticked the academic box. But I am actually I'm quite surprised. That is a very, very interesting subject choice, by the way, like I am really interested in that subject choice been so heavily related to languages and linguistics did for you Mason, that place more importance on his performance, particularly in the math component of the SAT? Mason 22:54 Yeah, so when I am, like approving a subject selection, my very first thought process is well, what's the overall academic profile going to look like? There are some universities that will require a certain number of years for certain subjects. And as long as the student has ticked all of those boxes for those years, then we can be strategic in choosing the subjects that the student will succeed the most. That's going to be the most important part when their application is reviewed is their success in these particular subjects. And so for Oscar, he was like, Alright, I have an interest in language. And at that point, we were still deciding, are we going to business and econs route? Are we going the humanities route? And for both of them, I said, Okay, well, you're going to do well on these subjects, ideally. And if you are going down the business route, your maths components are going to be even more important because we don't have any other types of computational factor in your application. And we ended up choosing that later on. But he did show well in all of his humanities subjects that it didn't, it didn't make me nervous that we chose those those subjects for the math section. He got a perfect sub score for the LSAT in mathematics. He also for math level two, he also got a perfect score. So I wasn't really concerned with how his application was going to be reviewed for business because we were able to supplement his his subjects selection in class with his really really strong standardized testings. Podcast Host 24:32 Fantastic, and so I'm going to guess Oscar, the ATAR starts with the number 99. Am I right? Oscar 24:37 One could say that, year. Podcast Host 24:39 Okay. All right. Well, congratulations on that. For those people who around the world that's a very impressive score but usually like that is roughly the the ballpark you need to be in if you're going to get into Ivy Leagues let alone a few of the Ivy Leagues now let's talk essays because obviously that is when it comes down to these top colleges. Usually the fact that that can sway an application one way or the other, talk me through that whole process for you. Because it is such a different piece of writing to what many people are used to particularly even the students who are humanities based, right? They're like, Oh, I'm a great writer. And then they get told to self reflect and write about a moment in their life. And they're like, oh, gosh, I haven't done this much before. So what was that process like for you? Oscar 25:23 It was definitely novel. I don't think I'd ever written anything like a personal essay before or I've been asked to write in my own experience in a challenging circumstance, or what I learned from a certain experience. So it was definitely novel. And I think that that came down to, again, Mason, and then my, the person who helped me out with my essays, Katherine, so that came down to really again, being strategic with what we want to communicate and how to do it as concisely and clearly as possible. So at first, when we were drafting ideas, I think we just wanted Mason's activities, which was 30 things about me and one of them, which was great to just kind of map out key points that could be talked about or key ideas. And then from there, it was a matter of building them into actual essay ideas. So breaking them down into something of a narrative, something of a message to convey. And then also looking at what we wanted to convey about myself through this essay. So while I'm not going to obviously lie, or change anything about myself for the essay, it's about kind of shaping the content we have to what the university is looking for. So whether it be with your pen, one, looking more at that kind of entrepreneurial spirit, or whether it be with the owl, looking more to the humanities, or to the social action type side. So trying to shape the essay to the college while still maintaining the integrity of the content was key. Podcast Host 26:52 Right? And could you give us a quick insight potentially into the moment or the message that you were trying to convey? Oscar 27:00 Yeah, so with the main common application essay that was sent to all the colleges, that one I wrote about a holiday I had back to Switzerland, which is where my family's from, and it was centered around one night where I was at dinner with family members who only spoke French, and none of my family spoke English, and I was the only one who spoke something in both languages. So it was, it ended up being an ICT about experiencing new cultures understanding one another, even when communication wasn't always possible, verbally. And then from that, a message about openness and the value of dive into new experiences came about for me. Podcast Host 27:47 Fantastic. And for you, Mason, when you get told, I mean, I think that's an awesome story. By the way, I love that situation, I can picture it very clearly. But for yourself, my son, when a student says, hey, look, this is the kind of angle that I'm going with. And they're working with their essay mentor as well on it. What makes you confident that that's the angle that the universities would want to say as well? Mason 28:09 That's a good question. There are so many different iterations of a successful asset. And the personal statement is meant to be that personal. And for that assignment that Oscar was mentioning the 30 things about me assignment that I have, it's not part of the typical Crimson process for essays. We have a bit of a different process, but I like that particular exercise, because it makes students really self reflect on who they are, and different things that make up who they are, and why. When we were looking through Oscars, 30 things about me, we were looking for different trends that we saw. And overall, it kept coming back to why Why do you have this really big, interesting mystics and his, with his mentor, Katherine, they come up with three topic proposals. And this is the one that I thought had the biggest potential to, first of all, explain why he chose his subject selection, because it is uncommon to have three languages as your as your your HSC courses. And it explained that particular point really, really well through this topic, but also that self reflection piece of, well, this is actually why I'm so interested in languages. It's the connection piece. And that was, I think, key. For the personal statement, I always advise students to not talk about extracurriculars to not talk about academics, if you can avoid it. But with Oscar's, it seemed to just fit. It was like that puzzle piece that was missing. And I knew that it was going to going to resonate well to give a lot more context to his overall application. Podcast Host 29:57 That is a perfect answer. Thank you, Mason. There. That well sums it up. So you've got the essay, you've got the extracurriculars, you've got the academics, and you also had to do some supplementary essays. Were there any curveballs in that at all? Oscar 30:11 I'm trying to think I remember, I was fortunate that some of the questions were quite similar. So I could reuse some essays, which was great for saving time, or just kind of reshape similar ideas to different ones. But some of them were a lot more simply put than I expected. So I thought some of the questions would give you a bit more direction on where to go. But a lot of them were just very open ended. Like, I think there was one which was described the challenge from your life or something to that end, so then it was about taking that challenge, but then not just writing about it, and then expanding it out to what you learned from and what you gain from it, which isn't the most obvious thing to do, or the easiest thing to do. Without it sounding either too, too miserable or too trusting how to put it, it's it's a matter of finding that balance between writing, personally, but then also showing a genuine growth from that moment. Podcast Host 31:09 Yeah, always a tricky thing to do. But I think, you know, if you're able to understand what you're trying to convey, then half the battle is won there. So okay, we're coming towards the end of the application where you're actually about to submit, Mason, when you're reviewing the final application, how confident were you that this would be a good contender in the Ivy League battlefield? Mason 31:37 The Ivy Leagues are always a reach. So it's always like a, we'll see how this goes. But I had this this good feeling that we did everything that we could to best represent everything that Oscar had done on his application, and give it the best fighting chance. But like I said, with the ivy League's even for the strongest of candidates, it's still a reach. So we applied to you Penn in the early decision round. So that was in November one deadline. And Oscar, I hope you're okay with me sharing this, but his application was deferred. That to me was a surprise, for starters, because even though on the Australian calendar for academics, they're on the January to December timeline, normally, what I find is that for students on that calendar, wherever you are in the world, if your school is on January to December, it's pretty common for your application to get deferred, I was asked his application was really strong. So I was actually still surprised that he didn't get an answer. So that gave me some some context for how his application record reviewed by other institutions. So it made me actually a little bit nervous. And then seeing the sheer numbers of what happened with the early decision and early action rounds. And then the tidal wave of applications that came in for the regular decision round, that made me really nervous. For context. School is received, like 50% 60% more applications in the early rounds. And their application, admissions results dropped dramatically. And so that made me quite nervous. Once we actually started getting some some feedback from other schools that were more in the in the match or safety ranges of schools. That's when I started to have a little bit more breathing room for Oscars application. And then for IV day, that was a good email to receive from Oscar about all of his results. So that was that was really exciting. Podcast Host 33:38 Fantastic. Now, Oscar, take us through the results. And the results day in general, because it is such an odd one, particularly as an Australian student, where usually people are celebrating their ATAR score. And you're there celebrating admission results. So yeah, take us through like a bit of a review of the results that you ended up getting, and what that whole experience was like me. Oscar 33:58 Sure. So I ended up applying to I think, was eight colleges, but two of them were separate from crimson, just but reusing essays and ideas that I'd already had. And then of those, I got into six of them. So but the ones with Crimson then I got into were NYU, Cornell and Wharton. So then, I found out from NYU about a week before IV day. So that was a great first step because although it was still obviously very competitive to get into and I think this year, it had over 100,000 applicants or something ridiculous. Just to get into that was kind of the first step towards, okay, it's a really fun first one out of the way we can kind of look forward because I often found the stress about us was not about I mean, it was about whether I get it or not, but a lot of it was just the waiting and the three months of going I don't know where, like what my next four years you know, like sort of at least have Why don't my about made it feel like okay, this is starting to feel real now. And then the week after when we got back Cornell yell and you've had on the same day it was very exciting. I remember I think the emails and thinking the next slide. Whatever happens after I press this button kind of changes the next four years. So that was a big moment. And then I remember kind of overthinking everything, whether it be on the yell portal, there was an extra tab that hadn't been there before. So that that was a sign something had happened. But I just needed to calm down and go, Okay, I can wait five minutes. I can wait five minutes. I thought it was very exciting. Definitely. Podcast Host 35:40 Yeah. And when you ended up getting all the results, I'm sure like your family was pretty ecstatic as well, etc. When the dust settled, and you had these results, what's the process been since to then pick one as against Yale because and Cornell let's not forget Cornell or NYU, for that matter, like great options? Why did you end up going eventually with Wharton? Oscar 36:02 In terms of the process of deciding, I will admit that because I knew I had, I think, three and a half weeks that I did just procrastinate for a while because I didn't want to kind of lock in any sort of future plan. Without thinking too much. So then a lot of it was just kind of maybe two weeks of decompression off going okay, I don't know, it's I can calm down. Now I don't need to worry too much about the waiting. So there was definitely a two week period of kind of just not much happening. But then. But then when it came down to actually deciding I knew that of the four I got into the I was considering that Yellin pan had always been up there, above the other two, slightly more. So I, it was good that I had some natural direction towards those two. And then in terms of the direction between those two, I did more research. So I refreshed kind of the reasons why I wanted to apply to them in the first place, looked at the pros and cons of age in terms of location, degree style, business school's reputation, what their broader social life is like. And then I even had the chance to speak with Jamie from Crimson about this because there was an opportunity to interview for the AFR, here in Australia, which was very exciting. And then after that, because he was also on the call, he was able to stick around and offer me some advice to the colleges. So that was also very useful. And then in terms of what actually made me make the decision, I think it came down to just understanding what the core kind of values each of the colleges were offering. So Yale seem to be much more about learning for the sake of learning, understanding, and then perhaps using using that more for social action type purposes. And while that sounded very appealing, and especially with its focus on the humanities, that sounded great. The reason I ended up going with water was its website keeps focusing on the practical side of what it offered and how to apply the skills we've been learning to actual problems, how to use them. And as Jamie said, It meant that coming out of one, I would have skills that some other schools would only offer it an MBA, much more practical things that would make me more job ready, while also being interesting on an academic level while I'm studying. Podcast Host 38:28 Fantastic. Well, that is a fairly good analysis of your choices there. But I'm sure like, it's something that you need to do, right, if you're going to be spending four years there, and it really can change the path you end up taking after college life as well. Mason, what advice or recommendations would you give to Oscar before embarking on this us college journey? Like from your experience to someone who's been through the system before and is now back here in Australia? What advice would you say Oscar is a must do type scenario over there in the US. Mason 39:00 Just embrace everything. Um, a very common piece of feedback, I guess, that students have when they're about to graduate is I wish I got involved in things earlier on. There is obviously an adjustment period. I mean, when you transition to to university, that's already a big transition. But doing so as an international student is an even bigger transition. It's oftentimes the first time you're away from your family and friends that you've known your whole life. And you're kind of dropped into this situation where everything is going to be you like, everything will be new for a while. So take the time to just sit in that and I know you said I procrastinated on my decision. I didn't think you procrastinated at all you were sitting with the results and mulling it over and going with your intuition and then doing the proper, the proper steps to get the information you needed to to make that choice. That's gonna be a similar thing that I recommend you continue to do when you're transitioning to the States, like, if you're choosing, I don't know what campus club or organization to join, sit with it and see what feels right and kind of go with that intuition and obviously do your research. But I have no doubt in my mind that you're going to go off and do fantastic things, given what I what I've seen before. Podcast Host 40:27 Absolutely. And finally, Mason for students who are about to embark on the application or who are already going through it potentially, what advice would you give to them based on what you saw with Oscars application, because obviously, Oscars application have some unique elements. And I think that's a really interesting point from my side, like, what I'm taking away from this chat, is that you don't necessarily need to look at the case studies of the students who go out and found organizations and cure cancer, whatever they're doing out there, you can just be true to yourself and find your own niche, and really expand on that in a couple of different ways. And that can be the card that you play in the admissions in the admissions round, and it can be the one that gets you through. But you might have a different takeaway, what would be your advice for students after working with Oscar? Mason 41:18 That's a good question. There's the way that I view the whole admissions process and the whole year long journey of app season is it's even longer than that, like your whole high school experience, do what makes you happy. And that's kind of my advice just from life. In general, there's no formula. To be fair, there is kind of a formula, but there's no like, prescription of you need to do this, this and this to get into a good university. I would say, obviously, the the whole academic that is important, because these are institutions of learning. So they're academic in nature. But for extracurriculars, do things that make you happy, and that you're attracted to. And then the difficult part is leveling those up, to have an impact on your application. So if you want to get into these, these elite institutions, there's no set formula prescription of all the things you need to do. But everything that you need to do needs to be leveled up to that full throttle degree to get into these really competitive institutions. hope that makes sense and resonates. Podcast Host 42:29 Yeah, no, that's for sure. I hope that helps students who are listening as well. And for yourself bosca, given your experience and how much you've come from, like not really knowing a huge amount about the application process to now gaining admission to Cornell, NYU, UPN, Yale, etc. What advice would you give to students as they embark on the US college application? Oscar 42:53 I'd say I have two key pieces of advice. The first would be to stay, stay with your timeline. So stay organized, I think that that really helped me out, as I already mentioned, because it meant that no one aspects became too daunting, because you had enough time to do all of them. And then the other one I do is, the other thing I'd recommend is not to just go with what you think you should apply to based on what others are telling you. So listen to yourself, and what what colleges actually resonate with you. So I didn't apply to anywhere near every Ivy or every big name college in the US and know what I want to because after doing research, I realized which ones felt like more of a fit to me. So ensure that you're applying for the right reasons and not just doing it because the name sounds good to you or you feel like you're being pressured into doing it actually want to do so because if you do have that desire, then it'll make your application that much stronger, because it'll show clear intent of wanting to go there. Podcast Host 43:56 Fantastic. Well, guys, it's been awesome to chat and fantastic to get a bit of a sense of what it actually takes to get into these top Ivy League institutions, or at least win your case Oscar with your story and with your subjects and everything else that you've done. So thank you so much for sharing. So candidly, Mason, thank you so much for sharing your advice and wisdom along the way. It's so great to get the context and like the wisdom of the strategist on the call as well. So I hope this has been another great episode of The how we got in podcast or how I got in podcast, I should say, and I look forward to sharing it far and wide. Oscar 44:28 Thanks so much.

#2 How I Got In - Stanford Admit and Her Strategist Talk Authenticity, Scores and Essays

🗓 MAY 1, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of the top of the class Podcast. I am delighted to be joined by Maggie and her strategist, George. So Maggie, over to you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. Maggie 00:31 So Hi, everyone. My name is Maggie and I just graduated from high school last year. So I'm from Melbourne, Australia. And yeah, I applied to the some US colleges last year, and I was obviously guided by my wonderful strategist, George. So um, yes, that's who I am. I guess that's my story. Podcast Host 00:55 Not all of your story. Where are you headed? Maggie 00:57 Well, I was recently accepted into Stanford University, which is my dream school. So definitely very excited for that and to see what might happen in the future. Podcast Host 01:07 Absolutely. That's the story that is to be written over the next four years for you very, very exciting times. And George, over to you. I mean, for the people who've been listening to the podcast for a while, or at least the webinars that we do at crimson, they would be familiar with your lovely voice, but give us a little background as to your story and how you ended up helping Maggie through our application. George 01:29 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I could start way back from the beginning, which is the from the UK. And I studied at Harvard for my undergraduate and then knew that I wanted to come to work for Crimson, and work with students like Maggie, because I had such an incredible experience. When I went over to the US, it was like life changing, it was the right decision through and through for me. And so I wanted to give back and I wanted to be able to help students who, who found themselves in similar positions to me where they, you know, they knew that maybe their home education wasn't quite fitting for them, and that the US or, you know, wherever the UK as we serve as well, was going to get a new experience. And, you know, that's how I came to work with Maggie. And I've got so much to share on what a wonderful experience it was to work and guide, Maggie. Podcast Host 02:13 For you, Maggie, is that a story that you kind of gel with? Or you have some kind of understanding that that's your story as well that you kind of saw the options here in Australia and thought, Oh, look, I'd love to see what else is out there around the world and throw your hat in the ring for the US? Or is that something that your parents recommended? Like? How did you even come to decide that US was for you for higher education? Maggie 02:35 Yeah, well, I think my first contact or introduction to you know, like a higher education in the US was that my sister actually applied before me and she actually underwent all the process, you know, the college application process, and I was able to, you know, just be like a bystander to see how the whole thing worked, as well as how you know, now that she is in uni, how many opportunities are being offered to her right now given, you know, with this education, so I was definitely quite motivated, seeing my sister, you know, go to university overseas. So that was basically when I first introduced to this, but I really wanted to experience something new and experience a different culture, to meet different people from all around the world. So I think that's one of the main reasons why I wanted to go there. Podcast Host 03:24 And why Stanford because obviously, like Stanford had some of the most competitive applications that we've ever seen this year. I think the admission rate is below 5%. Or there abouts. It's some crazy figures this year. Yeah. So Stanford super competitive. Why for you, was that your dream school? Maggie 03:43 Well, it's kind of funny, because I think I've, you know, the moment I really decided that, you know, Stanford was my dream school was actually by a video that was released on crimsons YouTube channel. And it was basically this vlog of a Stanford student who took theater and performance studies. And you know, she guided the tool person through the school, I was like, wow, this is exactly the place where envision myself you know, spending, for example, the next four years in one particular instance, I remember her describing the Sims, they call it the improvisation theatre group at Stanford, and the production that was on that season, I think it was basically a play that took place in the toilets of the Memorial Church at Stanford. And to me, I've never ever seen, for example, a theatre production that was so unconventional, so out of the box, and to me, I feel like that really represented Stanford's, you know, deep rooted culture of like innovation and, you know, that encouragement of the students to push themselves creatively. So I think that's what really appealed me to Stanford, that stood out from the rest of the colleges. Podcast Host 04:54 Yeah, yeah. Well, Stanford is a very beautiful campus. I was lucky enough to visit in January of 2020. Just before that, The whole COVID lockdown started happening. And yeah, it was fantastic. Like it's such a massive campus like you, you're going to either get very fit by either walking or bike riding everywhere. So yeah, it's a it's a fantastic campus in terms of its just size and its number of different opportunities that are going on there. It's beautiful. So from Georgia's perspective, when a student like Maggie comes to you and says, Hey, George, I really want to apply to Stanford, and you knowing how difficult it is to get in, what's your first reaction? George 05:32 Yeah, I mean, given that this year, as well, the the acceptance rates were even lower than they've ever been. Right, Alex, as you said, they haven't actually released Stanford's admissions rates. But given that the ivy plus universities were all 4%, sub 4%, you can't imagine it's different. You know, it's, it's always my first, it's always my first response to any student, no matter how incredibly well positioned they are, to say that this is a big test, the likelihood is that we won't get in. And that's not to deter whatsoever, that's to add reality to the situation. But to know that you can match reality with ambition, right? And that you don't need to look at a 4% acceptance rate, which is one in 25. Right, you have to be the one out of the room of 25. You can be that one. But you just need to know what you're up against. Right. And and so, you know, I my first response when Maggie approached me and said Stanford, because I remember us having these conversations last year, we were going back and forth on where we would apply early. And a lot of it was to do with, you know, where we were currently at with our activities, where we currently were at with our standardized test scores, and where we could put ourselves. And I think, you know, we spent, we spent a little bit of time going back and forth on whether it was the right choice. But ultimately, you know, Maggie herself, was able to convince me beyond any convincing, I needed to do it myself that she was a good fit for that place. And I think, ultimately, without going into too much detail on what I think really made the most successful applications this year. You know, Maggie writes with such authenticity, and what she does, she does from the heart. And I think that that ultimately read and does read. For these top universities, it was very clear for me that what she was doing what she was writing about, she meant, and it was really who she was. And so when when Maggie originally said to me Stanford is the place I want to go to Stanford a healthy dose of reality, while also matched with getting on board with Maggie and matching her ambition to get her to where she wanted to go. Podcast Host 07:35 That's awesome. Well, you also gave me a natural segue there into the essays because obviously, for students aiming for top universities, and this is something that the student that I interviewed earlier, Sylvia alluded to, for those top universities, everyone's got great scores, everyone's got great extracurriculars. And really, it comes down to, in some cases, what you write in your essay, and how genuine and authentic your essay is. So over to you, Maggie, can you take us through, I guess, your process in writing this essay, because I know that like, you may have seen it from a standards perspective when your sister was going through it, but it's a very different process when you're actually going through it yourself and having to self reflect and think about how am I going to sell myself to these universities in 600 words, right? Maggie 08:24 Definitely. I think both George and I, we brainstormed a lot as to like, what are perhaps some of the most as you say, like the authentic ideas that we can present to the college. So um, I basically started off by going way back to, you know, my childhood and thinking about the times and the experiences that made me who I am, you know, with my family. So I basically wrote about just my family's progression from, you know, a family of perhaps quite a lot of conflict, and ultimately into a family that was, you know, that is now living very harmoniously, and, you know, with who have a lot of love for each other. So I think all of these personal experiences really bring out as you say, like the genuineness that you want to convey to the admission officers, because at the end of the day, I think that's what really will touch their hearts and convince them that perhaps you are the right person for the uni. Podcast Host 09:22 Yeah, that's beautiful. When you talk about your family and that experience, is it a different essay than you thought you would end up having to write like, Did you think that it was going to be mainly about, you know, your achievements, or, you know, your kind of wins in life, rather than about like family conflict and the progression of your family to now living harmoniously? Like, how different is the essay from what you thought it would be? Yeah, I Maggie 09:48 mean, you know, before starting the essays I you know, I watch a lot of videos, I do a lot of research, you know, I think, oh, what is the formula, you know, but at the end of the day, you you realize there's no formula or you No, you have to just stay true to yourself. And for me, what really reflected my growth as a person is the experience I had with my family, and not really like my achievements and my wins, you know, either academically or, you know, for extracurriculars. So for me, I think that was really what stood out for me, you know, just those experiences. Podcast Host 10:21 Yeah, exactly. life in general. Right. Well, for you, George, when you're brainstorming these type of topics, how do you know which one could be the one that you end up going with? George 10:33 Yeah, that's a great question, Maggie, I think you should try to be a strategist, although you may already be trained. Because your your point about there the no formula, having spent so much time researching and understanding that, like, I couldn't have said it better myself, I think, especially this year, again, and this was, this is a very, very unique year, because he, you know, because COVID meant we had differences in acceptance rates, and it was very, very low. Here, you're going to read and you're going to find many different how to guides, and what are good essay topics, and you want to Wow, them, you want to make them cry, you want to do this, you want to do that. But ultimately, when you write something that is telling us a lot about you, that gives us great insight into what you would bring to a community. And remember, in the USA, they are all about community, they're all about wanting to have a community built of diverse people that will all learn and grow from each other, and maybe learn and grow from each other in ways that involve a little bit of conflict. And you know, not nothing is always harmonious, right. And so that's where, you know, the complexities of who we are, as human beings come into play, they want to see that you're writing an essay where they see the complexities of who you are, they don't want to see an essay in which you are singing from the rooftops your achievements, because, Alex, as you said, like, you know, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, any university in the USA could accept four or five times over the amount of students that they get if it were based on grades and achievements alone. But as well as not wanting those big achievements to be written about, because we don't need to do that they speak for themselves. They also don't want somebody who's trying too hard, right. And trying too hard means that you think you know what they want to hear. Yeah, if most impactful thing that happens to you, or one of the most impactful things that's happened to you, that defines who you are, was a day, the day trip that you took to the theme park, where your experience on one particular ride changed your life. Find That actually sounds like an entertaining story. If it was one single conversation that you shared with a grandparent, you know, that's not necessarily this huge, exciting story that's going to have a big entertaining story arc. But if that is really what has defined you, as impacted you and has made you who you are today, chances are you're going to write on that in a way that's going to be far more compelling than anything that is written for the sake of entertainment. Right. And I think, Maggie, that's what you were able to do with your common app essay, right? Like, I think you're a fantastic writer, it was as well as being very compelling. It was entertaining to read. But ultimately, the most important thing that you take from that essay is, Oh, I know much more about Maggie than I did before. And I really firmly believe that Maggie will be somebody that fits very well in a community where she will learn from others and others will learn from her. So, you know, I think it's a frustrating answer, but you kind of just get a feel, you know, when somebody is writing authentically, and you know, when somebody is writing for the sake of trying to impress you. So Maggie knocked it out of the park with that one? Podcast Host 13:37 Yeah, well, Maggie, I'm interested in your experience, when you're putting pen to paper and writing something very personal. And then it's George's job in this instance, to give you feedback, and to tell you how to improve that writing that is very personal to you. I mean, I know from my side if I was writing something very personal, and I was very proud of that piece of writing. And then someone was giving me feedback on it. Even if it was their job to give me feedback, I would be naturally a bit defensive and be like, hang on, this is my story, what makes you think you can change it? So what's that relationship like between students and strategists? In this case, when you're trying to trust I guess that George won't leave the essay astray and will still leave it as intended the way that you wanted it to sound and the way you wanted it to feel? Maggie 14:27 Yeah, definitely. I mean, I personally think my relationship with George, I find it a very comfortable and very safe one. And I never felt you know, judged by him for whatever, you know, experiences I've had. So working with him has always been a very smooth ride. And I think we're both very open with each other as well. I'm obviously open for criticism. I know even though it's like a very personal story. And sometimes I feel the need to maybe defend myself but at the end of the day, I think George he hasn't been experiences to help guide me through this process and everything he does. He doesn't force the ideas onto a student, he suggests. And I think as a student working with him, it was just a lot easier to, for example, accept the criticism. It was very just a very comfortable journey when working with him in terms of writing the common app essay. So yeah, George 15:24 I mean, thank you for sharing that, Maggie, I really appreciate that. You know, as strategist Crimson, we don't have it's not our birthright to give criticism, and then you accept it, right? Like we have to earn that trust. And I would say in response to that question, Alex, that really learning how to receive criticism and have that humility is going to be something that will shine through in an application, if you have that quality, that humility, that willingness to learn and grow. So my hope is that students have that shining through and maybe can learn how to navigate that through the essay writing process. But that doesn't mean that they should just have it right. And like, I think it's so important that we as strategists and as mentors, and that I give a shout out to Myles as well, he did a wonderful job, you know, like it is our responsibility to work with our students and make them feel that they can share, you know, things that they would maybe not want to share. Like you don't always have to share, like these hyper vulnerable stories. So don't get me wrong, but you just want to share something that you you feel comfortable sharing that will show a lot about you. And so I'm really glad to hear that it's Maggie. That's how you felt and and delighted that we could strike that tone. Just a quick question, how Podcast Host 16:34 long have you guys been working together on this application or this in general push towards the US, George 16:40 Maggie, I had to check just before that it was one of the last things I checked in preparation for this today. I was like when I get assigned Maggie as a student, and it was the I think it was the 18th of June 2019. So it's been It was 18 months of 18 months of work that we had together. Time flies when you're having fun Podcast Host 16:55 her. So from your perspective, George, when you first got assigned, if we can go back to that time, and you're looking at Maggie's profile, and you're having those first initial conversations, what did you see as some of her strengths? And what did you see as some of the areas for improvement? George 17:14 You've been reading the George Baxter book of languages. improvement, that's for sure. And I think the the areas of clear strength, you know, Maggie already came to Crimson with with a strong resume with a strong CV as especially if achievements at school, and of like school related activities. And that to me show that Maggie naturally, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't say naturally because of course, it was down to Maggie to build this competence over time was a leader, she was somebody who, with the right direction given would be able to change the world, right and use her skills and use her abilities to make a big difference. And clearly, that was already happening. grades were fantastic, you know, grades, were in a really great position. And you know, there's always time to build these things up. You know, even with 18 months ago, if Maggie and I had started working together, and Maggie wasn't showing these things, there's still plenty of time to get this all together. I think the thing that that Maggie showed room for improvement, which was actually just because we didn't have anything there quite yet, is something that a lot of Australian students and many international students have a challenge with, which is to look extensively for ways in which they can engage with activities outside of school. You know, I went to school in the UK, and the culture of activities and extracurricular activities in the UK is the same as Australia, where the strongest students are the ones that are president of club captain of a team, head girl, head boy, Head of School, prefect. And there's the ceiling and maybe feel like there's not much more that can be done, because when they look around them, they're really at the top of their game. Unfortunately, the US is not going to say the same thing, right? Because there are, on occasion, as we have sitting here today, as students who do go above and beyond. And when universities have to choose one in 25, they're not going to look at the ones who didn't go above and beyond and say oh, but you know, context allowed. They didn't do it, because context allowed in the same country, other students did. So I think it was a matter of working with with what Maggie already had, knowing that she has the potential to be this change maker, matching her her confidence, because she did have the competence there to go and do it. And as we see from from the podcast, that she has always put together which is an incredible achievement, and just making sure that she you know, she knew what was expected of her. So you know, effectively serving I think the best thing that I could have done was serving as some kind of mouthpiece for the university where she may not have had that had she'd been working solo. Podcast Host 19:45 Right. Yeah. So it's kind of like saying, okay, looking from the perspective of what an admissions officer might view your CV as they would probably say, you're not doing enough outside of school at this stage. And so let's get to work on that. George 19:59 Right. Exactly, yeah. And And specifically, you know, obviously, because you got into Stanford but us admissions officers, because they're a different breed of admissions officer to what we see in any other country. Yeah, exactly. Now, Maggie from your side, Podcast Host 20:12 when you joined crimson, and I'm, you know, obviously joined with a strong CV. Is that a shared view that you thought your extracurriculars was an area that you needed more work on? Or did you think that the academics was the thing you needed more work on? Or was it just a bit of everything? Well, you weren't too sure. I mean, like, it's one of those things that a lot of people come to Crimson thinking they know a bit, but then realize that there's so many more complexities to the whole application, then they first thought, Maggie 20:38 Yeah, definitely. I mean, when I first you know, joined crimson, I wasn't too sure of the entire process, you know, I wasn't too sure what the whole application process involved. So, you know, coming to Crimson and kind of getting more exposed to this, you know, journey just made me kind of, throughout the way realize, oh, wow, there's a lot I need to prepare for, and a lot I need to do. But I think what's really great is that I have like a whole team of people who are just so supportive of me, you know, along the way, for example, in terms of extracurriculars, I work, you know, directly with Lily, I was working with her, you know, on a almost even like, weekly basis, just trying to brainstorm ideas, think about what activities I can go for. And, you know, she was able to push me to understand the fact that, you know, just sometimes you can stay satisfied with what you got, now, you have to really push yourself to achieve the best. And I was always just, I was very lucky to have her by my side, because she was also very supportive friend as well. Well, I Podcast Host 21:40 know, it's always a bit tricky when students hear that in the pointy end of their high school career, that they need to be doing more on top of an already stressful final year of high school. So what activities did you end up rounding out your application with in the limited time that you had? Maggie 22:00 Yeah, I think I was quite lucky in the sense that I knew where my passions lied, I knew that I was very, you know, passionate about theater, but at the same time, was also very passionate about, you know, giving Global Education rights to children. So, you know, I had two very clear ideas of where I want to have center my extracurricular activities on. So the whole process of thinking about what what maybe capstone project I might focus on, you know, it was just became very clear to me. So, obviously, one of my most I think central project was this podcast that I created, where I was reading stories for immigrants, asylum seekers, and refugees. So I really related my own experience as an immigrant to it. And I was just doing it wholeheartedly and poured my everything to it. And yeah, I think extracurriculars for me, it was just, it wasn't engineered. In a sense, it just came very naturally to me, because I was very passionate about it. Podcast Host 22:59 George, I'm going to guess as a strategist, you're super happy to hear that, that she wasn't engineering her extracurriculars to fit the application that it was more coming naturally. So when you hear a student is able to articulate that that was her story that she was pushing through the extracurriculars and the application in general, does that make your job easier? George 23:22 It definitely does make my job easier. Of course it does. Because I think one of the one of the big challenges that we we have when working with students, and I was the student myself when I was younger, is knowing what our main interests are. And I hesitate using the word passion, right? Because passion is very overused. And we don't need to know our passion at 1718 years old, which really exam we never need to know a passion, it's not something that is like, like, You failed, if you don't think about that, figure out what that is. But we all have things that we really enjoy, and that really take up a lot of our of our energy and can take up a lot of energy. And, you know, I think, Maggie, I can't quite remember if it was just before just after the you went in Nepal to go and volunteer to teach English, which I know was a very influential experience on then creating this podcast. And eventually the two of us coming together and saying, Okay, this is what I think we want to be remembered for our application. But I think a really good test as well, especially if you're a big project or a leadership project that you put together independently of whether it is authentic, and whether it is not actually engineered, so to speak is if once you've submitted your applications and you've got an in, is it something that you sustain? Is it something that you continue with, it's something that you really enjoy, because, you know, as many Maggie's as there are, there will be other students who will create something. And then the day after they submitted their applications, they'll never pick it up again. You'd be surprised admissions officers read 1000s of applications and somewhere somehow they will pick up that that is your your motivation, and they'll pick up Maggie's application instead and they'll see somebody who was was driven, passionate. I use the word passionate but passionate about it. And really wanted to actually make a difference. So it did, it did make my job easier for sure. Podcast Host 25:05 It's interesting, because you know, we've been speaking about formulas. And when it comes to essay writing, there's formulas. And when it comes to extracurriculars, there's often this kind of thought that there are formulas out there for what extracurriculars you need to do. So I'm sure students have come to you and said, Oh, but George don't need some kind of service piece here and don't need some kind of leadership thing here and trying to create or engineer their extracurriculars to fit in what the what they think the formula is, when in actual fact, like, it's more the reason why you're doing these things, not just what you're doing. So if you're doing things like a podcast, and the reason for you is very deep and personal, and you have a really strong connection to that, that's when, as you said, like the admission officers, they read so many applications, they can, they can see that this is not just a application activity. This is a personal thing that she's doing outside of school that she really loves, and will probably still have some role to play in this space, maybe not as a podcaster. But maybe there's something else in the future as well. Like she's got a connection to this community, this group and this purpose that she's found through this activity. So Maggie, is that something that you feel like really drove your application in terms of extracurriculars? Was this overriding why so to speak, like you found your why to help this refugee community? immigrant community? Maggie 26:25 Yeah, definitely. I think it was just, I was very clear what my purpose is, you know, even though I'm, you know, still quite young and inexperienced, I realize deep down my heart would, you know, where my purpose in life lies, and that's, you know, to be of service to other people and to help other people. And I think that just to me, you're really shone through in terms of like, you know, my activities and my projects, is that I just stay true to myself. And, you know, I identified the people that I really felt the need, and I really wanted to help. Podcast Host 26:58 Well, it must be very difficult, though, not to kind of fall into the formula trap, though, right? Like, when you hear all this, you did a lot of research yourself, when you see all these people saying, Oh, you need to have a service thing, you need to have a leadership thing. Did you have any anxiety or doubts about your application at any point thinking, Oh, my gosh, am I doing the right thing? Like, Is this enough? All these kind of questions were perhaps coming to the fore as you were nearing the end of the application? And you're about to submit? Maggie 27:26 Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, you know, there's so many people, for example, on different platforms, kind of advocating many different things. So at the I think, at the nearing the end of the application, when I do experience, you know, anxiety in terms of, you know, fearing whether I did enough, or could I have done more, I always just remind myself, you know, it's okay to be different, you know, sometimes you don't need to do so much. Or sometimes you need to do more, you know, once again, I just realized, because there's so many case studies out there, I just realized that there really is no formula, there's no secret sauce in that sense. So I just, you know, once again, stay true to myself. And yeah, just reassured myself everything was going to be okay. George 28:10 And having the courage to commit right to commit to what you're working on, you know, the admissions committees aren't going to say, oh, Maggie's podcast was better than x person's podcast, because Maggie's podcast got 10,000 views and, and this person got 9500 views, right? Like they they're not going to compare in that way, they're going to, of course, see how you fit within the larger profile of the students that you're up against. But they ultimately are making decisions based upon the human being or based upon the ultimate numbers at the end, they want to see that you've left an impact, but it is, you know, it's it's in that courage to actually commit to something and say, you know, even though I know that there are going to be times when I doubt it, and times that I, I feel like I've made the wrong choice or times where I feel like I'm not doing enough. It's about you know, continuing on Podcast Host 28:59 wall from your side. George, we're talking about Maggie having some deaths. How about you from a strategist perspective? Knowing that you're applying with Maggie, I guess it's kind of like a partnership, right? Like, it's you and Maggie applying in a way, right. But Stanford, obviously dream school there. Did you have any doubts? Or did you feel reasonably confident? Of course, like there's no certainty, right, as you said, like, there is a healthy dose of reality that comes with applying to these top schools. But what was your kind of feeling going in reviewing the application one more time checking all the, you know, the crossing of the T's and dotting the eyes? Did you feel like it was a very good chance? George 29:39 So, of course, there's no way of knowing and I'm there with the students, like I'm in I'm in the pulpit, with the students going through the motions as much as I possibly can be, you know, disappointed, upset, delighted, whatever. And at the same time, I'm going through my own previous experiences of applying to universities, and so of course there of course there are doubts. There's that This is you know, this is a, this is a human experience. But actually, Maggie was originally deferred she applied early was deferred. Now Stanford is renowned for deferring and very, very few students. So they actually don't defer that many whatsoever, I believe that they accepted about 11% in or maybe even around 10, or 11%. And then they differ about 10%. It's like not many at all. So if you're differ by Stanford, it's a real good indication that you got the stuff like you really do. And that they ultimately truly do want to see how you kind of compared to the regular call. And then there was a moment in January, February time where Maggie shared with me that her podcast had been picked up by what it was maybe in in December, but it was picked up by the Red Cross, which is huge, you know, is a huge achievement and a testament to the work that she put in. And that left me with some hope, some more hope, right? Because we no longer had to convince Stanford of, of how impactful this was. Other people were doing that for us, you know, so it was almost like an extra teacher recommendation of sorts, right? Like, you've got the teachers corroborating and saying that you're fantastic. And now you have recrossing that as well. And so, I mean, that gave me hope. And then up until the moment when you receive that that news from from Maggie or from the student, of course, they found a minute, you're like, Oh, no, I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm so nervous. And, and I actually, because I'm in the UK, I had to go to sleep baggy, I couldn't, I couldn't stay awake, because I would just like tiring myself out through anxiety, woke up the following morning, and looked in my in my inbox on the Crimson app and, and saw that I received an all caps message from Maggie. And I was like, what what that is and Clayton, I was so excited. So yeah, of course, of course, you have doubts, and you don't know what's going to happen. But at the same time, I knew that we weren't hitting in and getting nothing in return, I knew that there was a great chance that it could be a success. Podcast Host 31:48 Well, maybe take us through your initial reactions when you opened up the email or portal or whatever it is, that said that you had gained admission to Stanford. Maggie 31:59 Oh, gosh, okay. So I think this year, especially, it's like IV days, just right before the day Stanford decisions aren't released. Now the thing is, on IV day, I got rejected by all of the Ivy's apply to it was, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, it was very devastating. It was a very disappointing moment for me. And it took a long time for me to just process, you know, the, the information, you know, and I think, with Stanford coming up next, I think we all know that Stanford's of highly, you know, selective school. And honestly, I was kind of giving up hope. I was like, you know, I just have to expect the worst. And you're I was preparing myself to see the I'm very sorry. first few words. But um, I think leading up to the moment, I was just, yeah, China, just in some sense, I still held on to a little bit of hope, just hopeful for perhaps the best result, but wasn't expecting much at all. So I had my mom next to me. And when I think it said status update on when you refresh the page, and it says status update, and it's highlighted. Oh my goodness, those like those 10 seconds felt the longest and I was like, Oh, mama, what do I do? Should I should I press on it and my mom was obviously very supportive. She's like, it's okay. Everything will be alright. And you know, as soon as you see the confetti, the ribbons, I was like, oh, my goodness, this is, you know, it's a dream come true. Honestly, it's a dream come true. And yeah, we were just all very happy and ecstatic. Yeah, it was a great moment. And of course, I had to tell George straight off. It was like, writing to George George George 33:39 devastatingly went to sleep five minutes before you send that message to me. And I was like, five more minutes, and I would have heard a nightmare. Podcast Host 33:46 No, that's fantastic. And and such an amazing moment. And it's interesting that you had that journey between deferred and then getting admitted regular round, and then getting rejected from all the Ivy's it really is a roller coaster, and there's nothing that really rhyme or reason to the application process. I think a lot of people will say that there's, it's very, very difficult to predict. But one thing that we need to go over and I know that a lot of students are going to ask, what were her scores, and I know this is way less interesting than talking about the moment you got admitted. But I think it's definitely worth discussing, because I think going by the school has kind of helps you understand whether you're in that ballpark to start off with. So you did the VCA I'm guessing the local Victorian curriculum, right? Yes, yes. Right. You go on that. Maggie 34:33 So I got a nine 9.3 for that one, which I think is just within the range in terms of like, you know, are you competitive enough for selective schools, but I also do want to mention that honestly, like I usually don't buy like what people say about scores like all like it's okay. You don't need to have the best scores. But having gone through this myself, I personally really want to say that your scores on everything For me, personally, I, I actually received seven B pluses in my whole report. And I was like, No, I really felt that surely this was going to be like, you know, something that's going to bring my application down. But you know, I guess it just goes to show that really your grades on everything, if you have something else that shines even more, it's all okay. Yeah, Podcast Host 35:25 yeah, absolutely. Well, for our international listeners, 99.3 is around the top point 7% of scores in the state. So you did very, very well on that, like at 99.3 is an extremely good score in your VCA. And for your si t, or AC T, did you end up sitting that? Yeah, I Maggie 35:44 did, I think with last year as well, you know, sometimes they would just cancel very, you know, late, Podcast Host 35:51 it was crazy. Maggie 35:52 Yeah, it was crazy. It just like unexpectedly, you just receive an email like a week before, like, oh, no more, no more tests. So I think having, you know, gone through that I wasn't really expecting to have an opportunity to take the test. But I was actually quite lucky in October, just right before the ITA, you know, round for Stanford to take the test. And I received a 1540 for that 115 40. Podcast Host 36:17 If you're doing PSAT 993 VCA, which is very solid academics. I think students are still curious about that kind of thing. That that's the kind of academic pace that you're going to have to keep when you're on campus at Stanford. And speaking of which, do you know roughly what you're intending to study? Obviously, like you're passionate about theater? Is that an area that you're going to be studying or doing a minor or majoring? Maggie 36:41 Yeah, definitely. So I'm considering perhaps, you know, double majoring in, first of all, obviously, theater and performance studies. I really like that. And also, sociology as well. I'm thinking, George 36:54 undergraduate at Harvard, so I'm totally here for that. Yeah, I Maggie 36:57 think these are the two majors. I'm thinking of taking Stanford. Yeah. Podcast Host 37:02 Fantastic. And is there any other opportunities that you're particularly keen to take part in or take advantage of, whilst you're on campus at Stanford? Was there any like one activity that you're really wanting to do? Whether it be I know, they've got like the fountain hopping? They're in Stanford, or they have a, you know, famous rivalry with UC Berkeley? I think it is. All these things are going to be going on campus? Is there any particular thing that you're looking forward to? Maggie 37:27 Yeah, I mean, the fountain huffing definitely sounds like a lot of fun. So I'm definitely looking forward towards that. But I also you know, heard that a Stanford they kind of like, you know, right before, as you say, like the rivalry between like UC Berkeley and right before like the big race, we actually ride like a student directed musical. It's called the gateways. And I'm really interested in that one on that activity, for sure. Podcast Host 37:52 Right. So you're going to be writing a musical about the love hate of mostly hate relationship between UC Berkeley and Stanford, then, 38:00 I guess. Podcast Host 38:03 I think one of the things that as an international student you need to be aware of, and I've got a bit of a taste of this, when I've been in America a couple of times, is that they take their rivalries and particular college rivalries very seriously, like very seriously. So yeah, don't go like sweating about with UC Berkeley, people make sure that you know, your Stanford through and through is that sound advice, George? George 38:26 Yeah, having been somebody that had to staunchly despise Yale? Very, very good advice, for sure. Podcast Host 38:33 Absolutely. And, George, is there any other advice that you would give to Maggie to Ward's her college journey? She's about to embark on four years at Stanford, you've been there. You've done that at Harvard? What advice based on your experiences would you give to someone who is about to go to a place like Stanford? George 38:50 Yeah. Wow. I mean, firstly, I just want to say that I wish I wish I were you right now, like I am. So like, I so want to do that, again, I want to do that experience, you know, you're gonna have the most incredible time. And of course, make the most of it. It's kind of a balance between two, like, it's like a paradox. It's like, obviously, like, try and try and take it in and try not to, you're trying to take days where you're not taking it for granted. You're like, wow, here I am, look what I'm doing. But at the same time, you know, this is going to be an incredible experience. And you're going to have wonderful moments, but it's also your life, right? And you just, I just want you to just let just let it sink in just just like take it as it comes. Just make it your own. It's difficult to know what yeah, there's so much that advice that I want to give to you. The one thing that I did when I first started was I like sign up for every single extracurricular activity that I could and then cut back. And I have a close friend who did the opposite. It was like I didn't do too much my first year because I wanted to just let bad myself in. But, you know, I would say yeah, throw yourself into things, you know, see what you enjoy. And most importantly, I'd say you know, it's the people that you're going to meet that are going to like are going to change your life. That's why my life was changed and That's like maybe the thing that I would encourage you to think about when when driving decisions, like, you know, Where, where, where can I find the most wonderful people? Where can I, you know, build the most wonderful friendships? And you'll never go wrong? If that's what's your guiding principle? Podcast Host 40:16 Yeah, you guys certainly have a fantastic friendship that's really driven through this application. But I can't leave. You know, for our listeners, I'm sure they're pretty keen on hearing your final thoughts on the application advice and how they might go about it. And I know that it's a really difficult one for you both to, I guess we've kind of talked about it already. where it's like, there is no formula, despite what you might say, in the case studies you read, it's really about you, and how you present yourself through this application, and being as authentic and genuine as you possibly can be. And I think that's an both a simplified version of it. And also very complicated in that, like, what is the authentic may? What is the genuine way that I can show admission officers and make it sound impressive at the same time? But are there any final thoughts from yourself, Maggie, for people who are about to go through this journey? Or perhaps, you know, there might be a couple years away from going through it, but are still thinking about applying to these top colleges? 41:15 Yeah, Maggie 41:16 I think my advice really is to, you know, I mean, having gone through this myself, again, I just want to say that sometimes I feel like they will moments where, you know, you push yourself a bit too hard, or you want things to happen really quickly. But I think my advice to, you know, older students on preparing for it is to, it's okay, to take it slow. Sometimes I actually, you know, I remember when nearing my final exams, I was reaching out to George, because I was very stressed I, I had no idea if I were able to have the time to you know, complete all my studies, and I was, you know, sending messages out to Georgia, like, what do I do, I feel really stressed, you know, because obviously, it's the final moments where you really just, you feel like you have to push through. And I mean, his advice to me, I'm still, you know, living that advice every day, it's, it's just that, you know, it's okay to sometimes take some time off, it's really okay. And you know, after that you find yourself like, you know, recharged with, you know, all this energy to continue on. So I think my advice to all the other students is, it's okay, everything will be all right, everything will be alright. Podcast Host 42:27 Particularly when you get the confetti going down your screen after opening an email from Stanford, that certainly makes things all right. Absolutely. Read from your side, George, you know, a strategist has worked with many students going through this process. What kind of advice would you give that perhaps, you know, could sum up some of the things that we've talked about already today? George 42:46 Actually, I just wanted to say on top of what maybe what you just said, like, you know, when you're a high achieving student, the day does come when you realize that you aren't, you can't do it all like that day does come. And I feel like that was one of the days that kind of came, you know, when we had that conversation, Maggie, and it was like a moment where I, I breathe a sigh of relief for you. Because I was able to say to you take a day off, you're a human being you need it. Right. And that was so you know, I'm glad to hear that you're you still like take that advice to heart. And that kind of is what my advice is. This is new advice. I'm giving students now as well, which is we spend so much time on these applications thinking that we need to celebrate how extraordinary we are right? or What have I done that's extraordinary. What have I done? That's amazing. What have I done? That's like changing everything. But these universities, they're interested in you as a human being, and they just want to bring like, good people on campus, like good kids, I'm going to say you're gonna use that word very specifically because young people and live young lives and they've done things that young people do. And that's and that's what makes us human beings. Right? So they also want to see on your application, what makes you a good kid, what makes you what makes you tick, what do you enjoy doing? Like, like they want to see to hear somebody like that enjoys spending time with friends and and just has like a ordinary life as well. So I guess my advice is like, on your applications, when we think about that authenticity and things like that, celebrate what makes you extraordinary, but also celebrate what makes you ordinary. If you can get that on your application, you're going to be far more compelling than somebody that thought that what they needed to do was just impress, impress, impress. And that often is when we're working with students at Princeton, especially the high achievers, that's a really natural inclination to think they need to impress. So celebrate the ordinary as well as celebrating the extraordinary and I think that you're you're onto a winner. Podcast Host 44:35 Wow. I love that advice. I think that's such a great way to sign off the podcast. Maggie George, it's been an absolute pleasure. I so look forward to sharing this episode far and wide. And hopefully it gives a bit of hope to students everywhere. That there is no perfect application that it really is just you being authentic, and you can celebrate the ordinary in your life, which I think is fantastic advice as well as you more extraordinary moments that you've had as well. But thank you again and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. George 45:05 Thank you so much, Alex.

#1 How I Got In - UChicago Admit, Sylvia, Reflects on Her Essays, Extracurriculars and Why UChicago

🗓 APR 21, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hey, Sylvia, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Sylvia 00:26 Hi, everyone. My name is Sylvia, I'm currently studying in Singapore. Although I'm not from Singapore. I'm Korean American actually. And I've been attending school here for the past five years. And in the fall, I'll be attending the University of Chicago. Podcast Host 00:41 Wow, UChicago admits. And it's awesome to be chatting all about the application, how you chose UChicago, the essays that you did the extracurriculars that you did. But take us back, I guess, a couple of years. When did you think that you wanted to be attending like a top us college? Sylvia 00:59 Right? Yes. So actually, I think there isn't really anyone out there that would decline a spot at a good university if they weren't offered to. But I think when I really started thinking about University, and like, what I wanted to get out of university was quite recently. So when I was approaching the application process, I had to look at things beyond like the quote unquote, name value or like the prestige because our school has a limit of 10 schools that I could apply to, unlike many other applicants, or friends across in different countries that I know that could apply to many more than 10. And it seems like usually people apply to more than 10. So for me to kind of narrow down my list to 10, I really have to think about do I really want to go to school, if I were to be admitted, instead of I'll just try and send an application and kind of thing. So I think the reason I first chose the US in general is because I was never sure of what I wanted to do. That was the first step I took a narrowing down my list. And then I thought about the people I wanted to be around. And I thought that I don't want to stereotype a certain group of students and say these students go to end up at these colleges, because that is often not true, because there's way too many factors that go into attending a college or choosing one. But I've decided that I wanted to be a part of a student body that was motivated not only like in terms of like work or whatever else, but really intellectually motivated in terms of I want to learn and gain new knowledge. Instead of I want grades I want like this, I want this out of this college, like, I want to get connections, like I wanted something really genuine and not something that could be achieved on a surface level. And I think that's when I really started looking at. Okay, so what kind of schools like tend to have these genuinely intellectually motivated students? And I think that's one of the reasons I started considering, quote, unquote, top universities in the US. Podcast Host 02:54 Yeah, and UChicago certainly fits a lot of those factors that you listed just there. It's really interesting that you were, I guess, looking for a university based on the experience that you'd be having there. When you're doing that research. How did you land on UChicago as a good opportunity for you? Did you know anybody who had been to UChicago or is currently there? Did you get a chance to speak to anybody through an Open Daylight virtually, I guess, because of COVID. Sylvia 03:21 Actually, I had an admissions representative have like an info session at my school. But that wasn't the time when I was like, drawn into the school. I was like, okay, I've known about UChicago for a long time. Like, it's a famous school. I've known about it, but it just never really like had a place in my heart until like, I want to say the beginning of the application season. So when I was like really researching schools and like, thinking about which schools would fit me, I think, Okay, the first thing that really stood out or like the first thing that really like caught my eye was the essay prompts, because when I was looking through all the essay prompts, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have so many essays to write, like, Oh, my gosh, I have so much work to do, I was doing all that. And then I came across essay prompts that were literally unlike any other that I've ever seen. And I think the school itself is already quite famous for its unique prompts. It's also known as the uncommon essay. It's not the only supplementary essay, you have to write for the college application to UChicago, but it is a very significant and valued part of it. So when I looked at the questions, that's when I kind of got a feel of like, Who could have ever thought of these questions like who are the people that are going who are willing to go the lengths to answer these questions like these other people who would end up at the school so that's when I kind of gravitated towards Okay, I think this these essay questions already give me a feel of what the student body would be like and what the community would be like at the school. And I would say that's when it really like kick started my love for college. Podcast Host 04:51 Well, I'm sure UChicago, we'd love to hear that that they're partly doing their marketing through their essay prompts, because you're right Very unusual, unique set of questions that they pose to students through the supplementary essays. Which essay did you end up answering? Sylvia 05:08 Yeah, so there's kind of like a light backstory to this. But I was looking through the prompts. And being me, I like to go kind of like, the unconventional way with anything. If someone does, it's like a group of people does something, I'd purposely do the alternative, just so I could experience what everyone else is not doing. So I was looking at the prompts. And I was like, Okay, I don't like any of the prompts from this year. And I feel like everyone else is going to answer it. So I'm going to go backtrack and do something else from another year. And I ended up like choosing this question about, like, comparing oranges and apples. And I started writing the essay. I wanted to go creative. And like, I read through so many of the uncommon essays before I started writing mine, and I was just amazed that everyone, because they were just so unimaginable, it was it was about things that I've never come across before. So I was like, Okay, I got to do that, like this is this is the creativity that the college wants. So I'm going to do that too. But I realized, kind of midway, that a my essay was not going very well, I was out of words, almost every paragraph, so I had to stop, think, stop think with any other essay, I guess. But this essay was particularly difficult. And then on top of that, I felt like I was trying to be someone or like, talk about something in a certain way that wasn't really me. So I was trying to present myself as this unique, quirky candidate, as people like to say about UChicago students, when I'm maybe unique and quirky in my own way, I was trying to present myself in a way that I wasn't unique. So I was like, Okay, this prompt is not for me, I'm trying to squeeze out something from my brain that isn't me. So that's why I can't write it. And that's why I can't go forward. And I'm not satisfied with anything I've written so far. So I looked at the prompts again, and thought first about like a topic I want to write about, instead of trying to find an essay topic I liked, and then try to fit whatever I wanted to talk about within it. So I ended up choosing find x. But I kind of took that in a non mathematical angle, because nature of the title itself is x is commonly known as like the mathematical variable and all but I wanted to talk about my personal story. And I want to talk about psychology and specific. And basically, my essay was kind of about like, my parents, and how, when I was younger, whenever I noticed conflicts between them, and I would, you know, feel a certain way about the way they were talking about something or like, they were severely arguing about something like, there was a point where my family dynamic was, like terribly bad, even to like to a point where a younger me would easily be able to tell like, okay, there's something wrong with my parents right now, like, something isn't going well in their relationship. And every time I've noticed that, I kind of like thought about how I can help resolve it, like realistically, instead of just being sad about it, or like, oh, they're fighting or something like that, you know? So I actually ended up like presenting to them like a speech about like, I think I've read up some research about like human communication, and like, I think this is what you're doing wrong. And I think this is what you should do instead, going forward. And it was actually like a psychology research that I referred to, was his very famous research by like, Professor Gottman. He's like a really famous, like, social psychologist. Yes. And so yeah, I refer to that research actually presented to my parents, like what I found, through this research and what I learned, and then I actually think I kind of helped them solve some conflicts in their relationships, but who knows, they're there, they're much better now. I think they love each other a little more than before. But that's not the point I kind of talked about, like, that process, that whole like process were presented my learning and like, how I applied my learning to like, you know, help them do whatever. And then I realized stuff about their role. I don't want to go like to details it's quite personal. But I kind of related like the variable x to something I realized along the process in a human relationship that I didn't know before, and that I would have never known if it wasn't my parents. Now, so that's what I wrote about but I think you could really, anyone could go by with like, going either pathway like choosing a really attractive essay topic and then trying to think about it and ask yourself questions like, what what can I write or you could go my way and say, like, okay, I want to talk about this. This is what I want to express. What could ish fit this and then kind of twist it But either way, I think it's most important to know that like, even though UChicago is famous for like the quirkiness, uniqueness, or whatever else, you need to know that you can't be unique or quirky if you try to be like somebody else or if you try to be something that you're not because that's not unique record. You're trying to be something else, literally. So yes. It's really important to be authentic and like, genuinely feel like you want to write about what you're writing about. Podcast Host 10:05 Yeah, I really love that self reflection that you did, where through that process of writing the first time, the oranges versus apples, like by comparing the two, that you were able to step back and say, This is me trying to be what I think the university wants, rather than what I really want to present through the application. And I've always liked that about the US application process that it really does give students the opportunity to self reflect and to try and put themselves in an application in a way that virtually no other country demands of you, right, where it's like, we want to know more than just your school, we want to know who you are. And it's an amazing process that you went through, I mean, I find that most people would jump to the conclusion that it's a math based essay, you took it in a completely different direction. And I think that example that gives students a bit of an insight into just where they can go with an essay like that, and how flexible the essays can be. When you first started tackling that find x essay, was that the first idea that came to mind? Or was it like a long process of discussing things, thinking things through to kind of land on that idea of psychology and exploring your your parents relationship a little bit more? Sylvia 11:24 I would definitely say that, even though I did point out previously that I kind of decided first, what if I wanted to discuss before choosing the prompt afterwards to kind of fit it. If you listen to what I explained about what I actually wrote about the essay, versus the prompt, like, those two seem like, there's no way you could connect the two, right. And I think that was the biggest part that I had to like, really overcome. Like, that was one of the biggest obstacles. And I think with any other topic, not just the fine decks that I chose, or what I talked about, in my final essay, the prompts are set and very, very specific in terms of like, what the color of the university is, and like, what kind of vibe it gives off, like it's very creative, but at the same time, it's really, really open and you could take it in any any direction like, of course find x gives off that mathematical feel like are you are you meant to talk about some kind of variable, like, you might think that but realistically, if you take a step back and look at the prompt, like, you can try to find x in so many different ways. And you don't even know like, you could define what find means in your own way, you could define what x means in your own way. Like, you can reinterpret it in your own unique way, like all the prompts. And I think that's one of the easiest and hardest parts about it because you want it to be your own thing. But also, it gives you too much of a freedom to choose from. And you want to distinguish yourself and present yourself that to the committee that this is you This is me, and this is my story. So yeah, I think with regard to the essay topics, especially the uncommon essay, I think the most important thing is like reflect, reflect, reflect, it's not going to just pop out of nowhere, like, it's not a conventional essay topic either. So I I doubt it's gonna overlap with any of the previous essays you've written for other schools. So yeah, that's honestly, the most like realistically helpful advice that I'd like to give to anyone applying to the University of Chicago, like, please take a step back, think about who you really are, like, they don't necessarily want to hear about your accomplishments, or what you've done or what your extracurriculars are about, like, they want to hear about who you are. And if your extracurricular or your awards or whatever indicates your passion for something, then Sure, go ahead, but they want to learn about you as a person, you as a character and what your identity is composed of. Instead of you talking about something external, like it has to be, it has to come from you. innately. You know what I mean? Podcast Host 13:56 Yeah, I think that's such a challenge for a lot of students who further majority of their life may have identified themselves by their accomplishments. And by their awards, and by the scores they getting, they would have been like, this is who I am, I am a violinist who gets, you know, these kinds of awards, or I'm a sports person, I guess, these kinds of awards. Whereas the like, No, we want to know, like your values and your ethics and how you think in the way you see the world, which in that kind of scope of just like your accomplishments is quite narrow. So they're really challenging you to expand that view to go a bit deeper and ask who you really are. So I think that's a huge task, and must be quite a challenge when you're 17-18. to kind of get out of that mindset when you have been striving for great scores. I'm sure we'll we'll chat about your academics and extracurriculars in a moment. But you know, it must be a bit of a mindset shift to get away from that way of thinking and then saying okay, will me presenting my true self get into a top ranked University. I think a lot People would be fighting with that and be like, Oh, I could just talk about this achievement. And that is safe. And it feels great to just talk about something that I'm proud of. But, you know, realistically, they probably should be talking about a more personal side of their story. So the admissions officer reading, it can get to know you a little bit better, right? Sylvia 15:20 Yeah. And like on that, I just want to like, add on something just slightly. So with regards to the things that you feel like, make up your identity, I feel like including myself, and a lot of other people of my age, or even older, think that certain things about them as in like, the job that they might be working, or like, the university that they attend, or the high school, they attend, or, you know, they're like, whatever background makes up who they are, and they do it, it does contribute a lot to your identity, and like how you think or whatever, but I think like really reflecting upon who I am truly inside, intrinsically, instead of like, the things that make up who I am out on the outside, the process of that reflection to write this essay also kind of helped me realize that the name of the university is really, really, really sincerely not as important as I thought it was, of course, UChicago's a really, really prestigious name in itself. But that isn't the reason I chose the college. And the more I've experienced this process, the more I've realized that at the end of the day, the thing that really, really matters most to a person is what kind of person they become out of that university or that institution instead of what that institution could do for them in terms of like their identity, or like how you feel about yourself, like it's the person you become out of whatever process learning process or working experience that leads you on for the rest of your life. You know, that's something that stays with you. And I think that's one thing that I really realized was reflecting upon what makes me me while writing these essays, Podcast Host 16:54 what an amazing process. And thank you for sharing it so openly as well. It really appreciate that. And I'm sure our listeners will as well. Let's get into I guess the other less interesting, perhaps, but no less important side of things, which is the academics and extracurriculars because I know that a lot of students are interested in that side of things. So did you do the national Singapore curriculum there? Which curriculum did you end up doing? Sylvia 17:18 So I currently take the IB curriculum. So I've been doing the IB through my junior and senior year, and before that, I took what's called the I GCSE, which is like a British board curriculum thing. Podcast Host 17:31 Yeah I'm not going to push you to flex your score. But out of out of 45, do we have a rough estimate as to what you got for the IB? Sylvia 17:40 Oh, I haven't taken the exams yet. I'm soon to be taking them. And the only thing I've received for from high school regarding the exams are my predicted scores. So I was predicted 44 points out of 45. And I just got a side note. I've seen people get in with like 40 threes in high school. So I don't know what the baseline is for the IB score to be considered, like, in range or anything, but I would say a 40 for my school is probably like, top five ish of the class. Podcast Host 18:11 Yeah, no, it's a very, very good score. So yeah, the IB is obviously a challenging curriculum. 44 predicted score, you know, fantastic thing to show admission officers there. Did you end up sitting the SAT as well or ACT? Sylvia 18:22 Yes, I took the SAT, I took it three times. Oh my gosh, three times. And I ended up I had to Super score because my math I got something wrong. I was really sad. Um, so I got an 800 for the math, a 750 for the English section, and a 21 on the essay section. Podcast Host 18:43 Wow, smashed the SAT. And was UChicago? Is it required? Or is it became optional as a result of COVID? Sylvia 18:51 I believe UChicago has become test optional. Even before the COVID season. It's one of the few schools that don't necessarily require applicants to submit their SAT, ACT scores. So people could still apply without test scores. Podcast Host 19:05 Right, right. But when you're getting a 1550 Super scored SAT. That's probably something that you want to include in the application there. So obviously, they saw the academic rigor, which is great. Now let's talk about your extracurriculars. Because I think when I went to the US, I went to a lot of different colleges. I was on a tour, I wasn't a student sadface But yeah, let's chat about your extracurricular profile. Or I guess the way I like to think about it, and perhaps this is a completely wrong, but it's like the card that you're playing through the admissions process, like the person that you are trying to convey to the admissions office. So they're like, Oh, yeah, Sylvia is so and so and so and so like, they know you by your extracurricular profile. What kind of profile was that for you? Sylvia 19:48 Um, yeah, so generally speaking, I was involved in I would say, a lot of different strands. I would say the main thing was probably journalism and like, service. And I would say the third one, probably sports to an extent. I'll start off with the journalism part. So for journalism, I was like, involved in my school newspaper. I was like one of the like, editors, I was the vice editor, but like, there wasn't, there wasn't anything grand I do. And I'd say, like, that wasn't like the main part of my extracurriculars. But yeah, there was that was listed as one of my like top ones, because I had like the leadership role in it. And then other than that, okay, I would say serves as the main thing. And it's because I was involved in a lot of like, groups related to refugee and education in school outside of school. So I volunteered at refugee Education Center in Seoul. So yeah, I spent, the summer is there, the long winter is there, and I teach English. And I did a lot of like projects. Within that, like center. I like launched like an English curriculum. And I like gathered people for like a cultural immersion trip and stuff. And oh, and then I also had like service related things with regards to education and like refugee activism at school as well. And I would say, overall, the main focus of that was the fact that like, I wanted to deliver more of a good equitable education experience to socially marginalized groups of people like refugees. And why I felt that I think was more important to the community, I believe. And yeah, that was one of my main service strengths. And then my other service, john was related to mental health. So I did something called peer support for four years at my school. Oh, and all these activities that I've been discussing, I've usually done for three, or all four years of high school. And I haven't really listed any activities that I've done less than that. But yeah, so I did something called chair support. And it was like a group of students. And it's just like a small group of like, 510 people per grade that was selected to help new students settle in, or that's one of our like, roles. But also another thing was we helped, like advocate for mental health or mental like illnesses, or like, we partnered with nonprofit organizations. It's like a suicide prevention nonprofit. And we partnered with them for a while, I think every year we hold an event for them. And yeah, so like, I think I would say those three, so journalism, education, for refugees and activism in regards to that, plus mental health were my three main, like, strands on my application. And then in addition to that, I was in the soccer team for all four years of high school, but I wouldn't say that was like, ranked high up. But I feel that that and yeah, just one thing I like to mention with regards to extracurriculars in general is they don't really care about exactly like, what what is it that you've done like they do to an extent, but the thing that they care more about or pay more attention to is, what kind of person they think you are as a result of pursuing these extracurriculars. And what it says about you. So I think I hope everyone keeps that in mind and chooses things that they really want to do. And that is really them, instead of choosing things that they think will look nice on their application. Podcast Host 23:14 That is fantastic advice. And I know that having spoken to a couple of the Crimson strategists about different elements of the application, that kind of general theme does come up a bit, you know, their authenticity. And one thing that I want to just dive into a little bit further was you said, you know, with your work in Seoul, how it was the mission, or like the why you were doing it, as opposed to the what? And how you convey that in your application, I'm sure is like the commitment, right, that time that you actually spent there. But for you, what was that mission? Or what was that why you wanted to help that particular community? Sylvia 23:51 Yeah, so I've been with them for three years, actually. And if I'm not there over the holidays, or if I'm like, back in Singapore for school, and this year, in particular kind of COVID, I wasn't able to visit them every single break. So over times like that, I'm away from them, I teach over zoom, and it would be a weekly thing. So when I first actually stepped into the center in person, I just saw, like, this massive group of people just like sitting around in a room. They seem to be having fun in their own way, but like, it just felt like, especially for the younger ones, because the center is for young women, slash mothers. So especially for the younger ones, like students, oh, and their babies as well. But yeah, the students I want, I want to talk to them. I felt like I was calling to appear. And I felt like I was just talking to someone from my school or my grade or my class, whatever else. But it seemed like they were leading such different lives to who I am and as obvious as this sounds. If the person you're talking to just feels like your friend. It's so weird to imagine them having so That's different lives. And because these were the stories that I was hearing from them in real life, it wasn't something like I was reading from a textbook or like, I wasn't watching a documentary, like from third person's perspective, I was like, engaging in conversation with somebody else that had led such a different life. To me, that was already crazy. And by different I don't mean in like a good or bad way in particular, but obviously, considering that they are refugees in Korea, no matter how well off or like happy they are, now, they have experienced a lot, and they have gone through a lot. So I wanted to offer something more than just like, temporary condolence, or like, oh, okay, sympathizing with them and saying, Okay, I understand you how to report life like, Wow, that is amazing that you've overcome that, like, I wanted to give them some kind of practical help. And I thought that the first step towards that was learning something, and kind of giving them the like, motivation to, like, you know, learn, like literally, and I understand that they've had very different lives than me. And for them, their main priority might not be school like it is for any ordinary student like me, they have gone through so much like discrimination in Korea, I know it's gotten better, but it's still bad. But the reason I wanted to give them the motivation to learn was because some of them were repeating like years in high school, because like, the curriculum they've done before they moved to Korea is different. And they had to, like learn with local Korean high schoolers that were much younger than them. And they were not used to the culture or the people or anything like that they had settled in a couple years ago. But that doesn't mean they're completely integrated and feel like a part of the community. So I thought the first step towards that was to give them joy and like, to allow them to kind of feel the purpose of what learning is, and like, not just view education as something that they need to complete, because they're in this new country, and because they need to get a job. And on the practical side of things, for the older women, like the mothers who are in their mid 20s, or 30s, it was much easier for them if they had some kind of proficiency in English. And that's why I decided to do Okay, let's do an English curriculum. And it really continued outside of the classroom as well, we'd go out for food, or like, you know, dinners, like ice cream, ice cream runs at times, and they've actually gotten a lot lot better English? Well, I think they have. And actually, a couple of them did good jobs as well. And just seeing that growth of another person, because I contributed something I think meant a lot to me. And I didn't want to be someone that just thinks something or feel something or you know, for example, feels bad for what they've experienced. And then just like just leave that be like I want it to give them some kind of help, and leave them some sort of change in their lives, because they've met me. And I think there are a lot of ways one can do that. But for me, at least, it was helping them realize the joy of going to school or learning something new, or actually, you know, getting a job and helping them financially to an extent. So yeah, I think really seeing one person grow or a group of people grow up because of what I've done, I think has been the most meaningful thing to me. And yeah, the connection from that simple, like, I guess act of teaching has been much more than the act of teaching itself. So yeah, I take a lot of meaning and like pride in the small group of people I still teach. Podcast Host 28:17 Fantastic was that a part of your Common App essay? Sylvia 28:20 No, no, I was not a part of my common app essay. But I did mention it a lot. And it was definitely anything related to that I was it was definitely ranked higher up on my activities list on my common app. And also I Oh, just one thing, I did talk about this, in addition to the short description box I had in the activities list and my additional info section, just to give them like reasons, simple reasons as to like why I've done it, what I've done and what this means to me and things like that. Podcast Host 28:48 Fantastic. Just for our reference as well. The organization that you are a part of in Korea, or in Seoul, that is an existing organization. You didn't start that from scratch. Is that correct? Sylvia 29:00 Yeah. No, it was founded by a group of pastors, I believe, like church, people related to that it's run by a husband and a wife and some other children as well. So it was a very, like, it's a very minimal thing. It's not like some grand organization, but and they only recently got like, registered by the government. And I like through donations for that as well. So like, I really grew with them from like, starting small to being registered officially and receiving funding and so on. Podcast Host 29:30 Yeah. Yeah. Which is, you know, I think a great tip for students or a great example for students really, that they don't need to go out and start their own club or their own organization of their own charity, sometimes joining something small and then staying with it for a number of years and being there for the growth shows a lot of commitment and shows that dedication that admission officers really like to see. Let's get into what the future holds for you. And what you're looking forward to most UChicago, what do you actually aim to study there? Sylvia 30:00 So like I mentioned at the beginning, I was attracted to the user power, because I was not sure of what I wanted to do. But my current academic interests lie in the avenues of the social sciences. Or like, econ to be more specific, or psych is one of my favorite subjects. And I did write down psych as my intended major for my application. So just as a side note, that was my read on. I actually on that, do you mind if I kind of like sidetrack to like the core? Podcast Host 30:32 No, go for it. The core is a big part of UChicago. Sylvia 30:35 Yeah, I really, really, I was dying to mention that because I realized over the past couple months that I'm not a student that set on just one thing, like, there are a lot of people like that at my school, especially those who applied to the UK or like Australia, where they have like six programs they apply to, but I'm not that person personally. And I just have like an area ish of interest. Like, I like learning about people, I like learning about how society works, from like a people's point of view, like studying humans, and their behaviors. But I'm still unsure of what I want to do in the future. So trying to look kind of look ahead, if I were to experience UChicago's Core for the next two years. And while I might be forced to take classes, I don't want to, I think there isn't anything that would motivate me more to do that, then if the college required it. So kind of trying out a lot of different things. And like being forced to do things that I would have never done my foot in, I think would really allow me to discover, okay, this is what I want. And be assured that this is what I really want to do and what I really want to study for the next two years. And most importantly, I've always kind of treated undergraduate education as like a foundation or basis for something I'd like to do in the future instead of, Okay, I'm going to pursue this degree and then go forward with this degree somewhere else. I want to learn like skills, you know, critical thinking, creativity, or writing or whatever foundational skill it may be. So I think that's why the combination of me being unsure but still interested in some things, and having to attend a school that makes me do a lot of things that I might not be doing, if it wasn't for the core was like the perfect combination. Podcast Host 32:19 Yeah, well, I can put a link in the show notes as to exactly what the UChicago Core is, because I know that that's a big feature of their university. But if you were to attempt to sum it up in a short amount of time, how would you describe your UChicago core to listeners? Sylvia 32:38 It's actually common in a lot of universities. But generally speaking, the core is like a general education requirement that you have to complete to graduate a certain like college. But the UChicago core curriculum to be specific, is much more extensive in terms of the requirements, but it holds compared to many other US universities, like most universities have undergraduate requirements, but you spend a small fraction of your time in your college years completing it, whereas in UChicago, you would spend around two years of your four year undergraduate life completing it. And it includes disciplines across like the social sciences, I believe languages, a lot of biological sciences and physical sciences. So that includes not just one part of knowledge, it includes a lot of different subjects, no matter what, what major you are, everyone who comes to UChicago, must complete it to graduate. Podcast Host 33:34 Now, that sounds fairly intense, but an awesome opportunity, as you said, to kind of like get out of your comfort zone and learn some really cool areas that you may not have otherwise looked at, which is awesome. Now Talk to us a little bit about your Crimson support team. Because obviously, like being at crimson, I know a lot of the people who work with amazing students like yourself, but for you like is there any particular person that stands out as someone who really helped you through this application process? And if so, what exactly did they do? Sylvia 34:03 So my strategist, Kelly, and my education coordinator is violet. And I genuinely like to give an honorable mention to both of them, because actually, I like to begin with in the application process, I didn't really like the idea of being in the city of Chicago. So I never considered UChicago or you know, nearby college from Northwestern at all when I began, but they really pushed me to think about UChicago for some reason, like they come now to me and tell me like it was their gut feeling that I should apply there. And like that I would be a good fit there based off of their professional knowledge, of course, but they really, really pushed me to apply there and I was like, why are they making me apply? They're like, I'm not even interested in this college. But they kept pushing me and then this push me to, you know, really learn about like, what the university holds. And then I got to like, learn about it. So I think in that aspect, they're really, really helped me choose the right like college, that I'll be ending up at So really, really big shout out to them. And also, in terms of being organized, I am kind of admit like, I'm not a very like, not a super, super organized person. So I do forget thing, like, I do miss things and like, I feel like I lacked detail at times. And I think that's the part where comes in really came in for me because not only is they literally like, help me schedule, okay, this is what you need to do next. And this is ish the timeline you should be looking at throughout the application process, that gave me a lot of time to focus on my essays, and not feel like I'm being rushed upon a lot myself, because that is already really difficult for practically anybody. But also, I think they really helped me to have an open mind towards which college or university will fit me, because there are things out there that I don't know yet, as a high school senior, there's really limited resources, I would say, especially as a student who lives abroad and not in the States. And I think it's really easy for high school seniors to have like these misconceptions in their head about, okay, this is the type of student that ends up at x college or university, and I'm not that student. So I don't think I'll sit there. So for you to have like this, I guess at times dangerous self image, I think having someone who really knows you after, like having this like personal talk with them, and like then really making an effort to get to know you as a person before viewing you as an applicant like an admissions officer would. Or like I would say you get less attention when you're just being taken care of by your like high school college counselor. So really getting that like personal attention and finding out what kind of person you are and then assigning you to a group of colleges or universities that you'd really fit into. I think they've played a big role. And in terms of organizing and giving me enough time to do things and really helping me stay on top of my workload throughout this application process. I would never wish for anything else. Podcast Host 36:53 Yeah, well, that's a fantastic shout out to both Kelly and Violet. I'm sure that love to hear that from me. So shout out to them just out of interest. At what time did you join Crimson or become a crimson student? Sylvia 37:06 I joined in the middle of my junior year. So I would say that isn't like the best time to join. And I know people who joined from the beginning of high school or beginning of sophomore year, or at least in the beginning of their junior year. And I strongly recommend anyone to do that. And I think it's or the earlier the better. I don't think there's any situations that this quote applies to more than the college application process. Because the more more time you have to think about yourself, think about where you where you see yourself and think about where where you'll fit. And hearing these professional like, opinions about your college application process really, really helps at least in my case, it clearly did, because I'm going to UChicago. So yeah, I would, although I did join in the middle of junior year, I recommend anyone to join crimson and get their support as fast as they can. Podcast Host 37:56 That is something that I've heard quite a few times and actually from admitted students, they're like, Oh, I wish earlier, right? Because then people don't realize how much there is to do on top of school. And the application is like the end of the day, it's almost like another full time job. And I guess the reason is that, like it is the job of many of the people who work here. So they're looking at this with a lot more intensity than most students have time to do, which is super helpful for you, because it kind of just takes some of the work away and allows you to focus on other elements of whatever else is going on in your life. So yeah, very, very helpful indeed. Now, what other advice or final advice would you give to students looking at either UChicago, or any type of university abroad, if they were to go through this process? Sylvia 38:43 I would say specifically to UChicago applicants, I think there isn't any other college that would require you to be more yourself, then UChicago. So please do not be afraid to be yourself on your application, and to express original ideas, although they they don't they sound outrageous to you. And so out of the ordinary, like it is who you are, and it is what they will appreciate if that is who you really are and what you want to express to them. So please keep that in mind when you're writing your essays. And I would like to emphasize the importance of essays over basically any anything else other than like the hard factors like your scores and whatever else your activity list might matter less than your essay at one point depends on the person. And it depends on the application. But I would like to say that essays really take a lot of weight, especially the more like I guess higher up or more competitive universities are looking at, it's more difficult to distinguish one application to another because everyone is already so qualified and so amazing in their own ways that you need, like the essays and the space, to voice yourself to really stand out or show say this is who I am. Take me if you want me kind of thing or not. other cases, I really, really want to go to university. And these are the reasons like it is your platform. So try to own it. And if you are looking at the use of the University of Chicago, please don't be intimidated by the quote, like, where fun goes to die because I have personally been intimidated by that quote, and I've just imagined the amount of stress I'd get if I were to be a student there. And that's one of the reasons UChicago was initially not on my list. But the more I learned about the school, it excites me in the sense that actually, it isn't really the place where fun goes to die. And although it might be academically intense, and rigorous, that is, is true. And I think, objectively, it is a very difficult school. But if you think that the process of overcoming academic challenges or any other types of challenges, we're living through a rigorous environment, where everyone else is too, and if you think about process of learning and exchanging ideas with other people and being intellectually stimulated, is your fun, or is your way of, you know, building a social life or being social, you know, being social doesn't have to mean like partying or going out or meeting like 10 different people every day, it could be the exchange of ideas and learning stories or like, receiving people's opinions, like, you know, their their words like that could be your method of socializing, and being social and being happy on campus. So I think it's really important to understand what kind of person you are and what you want, what fun means to you, and will happy news to you, before you apply to any other college. But for UChicago, I know that it's not true. So if you are listening to this, and you're scared of that, I was you too, so please don't be and I'm really excited to go. So. And finally, I love to say that for everyone, the application process really does work out. And even if you end up with, you know, like your quote unquote safeties, as your only options. I think the fact that you even received those options is something to be grateful for, not just for a particular individual, but for anyone, I think an acceptance for college is meaningful in any way. But also, I think, genuinely, you do end up at a place where you really do fit in and the admission committee sees you as like a match instead of I think you and something to really keep in mind, in addition to that, like match system is you're an applicant of a university, not just waiting to get picked, but you've picked out university to apply to. So you need to really understand what you want out of a college experience. Instead of just applying and wanting to be picked by them, you are picking them too. So I think those are the things that you should really keep in mind and try to stay positive throughout the process. Although it is really difficult to and at the end of the day, you'll be very proud of yourself, and you'll be really happy with the outcome. And you'll have fun where we both so yes, I really wish you good luck to whoever is applying in the next application seasons. And yeah, thank you for listening. Podcast Host 42:56 What a great summary and one amazing advice. It's been awesome having you on the show, and I do look forward to sharing it far and wide. And also have an amazing time at UChicago. Whenever you head over there. I'm sure you will. You're excited to go. So I'm sure you'll have a fantastic time there. And yeah, thanks again for sharing all your amazing insights. Sylvia 43:18 Thank you.

#11 College Tips - Would I Go to Wharton Again? With Wharton Alum, Rohan Tibrawalla

🗓 APR 14, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:07 Hi, Rohan, welcome to the College Tips podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Rohan 00:27 Hey, Alex, good to be on overall as well with you as well. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I am from India, I had the fortunate, you know, the good chance of going to the US to study for my undergrad, I went to Penn, where I specifically studied at the Wharton School, which is the business school that many years ago. So I graduated in 2006. worked in New York for a couple of years. In at JP Morgan, I think two of probably sound the best years of my life, you know, work hard, played hard, made a lot of good friends learned lots Well, unfortunately, you know, given the visa situation in the US had to come back to to India, since coming back, I've done a few things in terms of work, work with the family or my own as well. But one thing that's sort of been consistent is when my association with Penn, so you know, I helped start the Alumni Associations from both Penn and Wharton in Delhi, in North India, as co chair of theAalumni Interview Committee, which is responsible for interviewing all undergrad students from a certain region. And yeah, it's been a good experience so far, and just now trying to sort of do my good deeds, and you know, help students who are interested in going abroad, with my experience and my expertise Podcast Host 01:47 Penn has a fantastic reputation for alumni, particularly in the business side of things. But what exactly are we chatting about today, there's a topic near and dear to your heart that you would like to share with students. Rohan 01:59 You know, when we started discussing this podcast, I was thinking, what might be interesting, what might be slightly new, slightly innovative, what if I bought the students, you know, myself in the students who was applying now? And, you know, would I sort of apply to Wharton again, because so much has changed? You know, it's been close to 15 years now since I graduated. And so much has changed since then. And a lot has also not changed. Podcast Host 02:23 Well, I'm going to guess there's a short and long answer to what I go to what and again, and I think we should go with the long version and explain it out a little bit more, in your view, what has changed in 15 years in the world of business and entrepreneurship, because obviously, the internet has come along in leaps and bounds in that time. And I think there's a lot of people out there selling short courses of variety in different ways and all these kinds of things. So for you, what do you think has changed your opinion? Something like one over the 15 year period? Rohan 02:53 Yeah, absolutely. So I think a few things have definitely changed. If I need to sort of bucket them, I sort of bucket them into three different categories and say, you know, the student population that they're attracting, what are they looking for in students? Just to be clear, you know, I did my undergrad at at Wharton hadn't done an MBA, but there is a certain amount of overlap between what you do at Wharton bits in terms of classes and extracurricular wise with the MBA students. So I think in terms of what's changed, like I said, one is just the demographic of the students has changed. What you know, that's one category, I think the second category is the curriculum itself. And the third category, I think, is just, you know, opportunities post graduation, and, you know, jobs that people want. Podcast Host 03:38 Yeah, well talk to me about the undergrad experience in terms of like sharing some of the classes with MBAs or sharing some of the opportunities with MBA students. Obviously, like Wharton, has this kind of storied reputation among students interested in business? And is it an advantage to then have those opportunities to mix with people who are a couple years older, and perhaps a few more years experienced in the business world? Rohan 04:00 Yeah, I think, you know, it's the amount of overlap there is, is limited that there is both so specifically in terms of classes that you want to take with some senior professors or some of the high level classes, there might be a mix of your MBAs and undergrads. Second is, you know, they have a lot of events in terms of inviting global leaders to come and speak on campus, having job fairs, and all of that, and you know, and those are kind of events and situations where the undergrads and MBA students sort of combine their efforts. It's also good because to get to speak to these MBA students, because like you said, you know, they were probably in your shoes A few years ago, they have graduated from good schools, they've worked in the field for a little while they've come back to do an MBA. So it's always good to get a mentor speak to them, you know, and then sort of understand from their experiences as well. So it's, it definitely gives you that opportunity. It's one of the few schools that does that. A lot of top MBA schools you know, let's say a Harvard or Stanford you ESB, those are only focused on MBAs, and they don't have undergraduate students. Whereas Wharton does have a mix of both undergraduate and graduate students. So I think, you know, both from getting to know the MBA students, and also some of the faculty and curriculum is definitely very helpful. Podcast Host 05:17 Wharton, I think, it's one of those places as well that most people would say, is an MBA place. Like when you talk to a student here in Australia, or wherever else around the world, they're like, yeah, I mean, that's where I want to do my MBA. But why did you choose it for your undergrad? As you know, your opportunity to go overseas? Rohan 05:33 Good question. So you know, I was very keen on studying business at the undergraduate level, and is very keen on going to the US. So I was keen on undergraduate business level, because I come from a business family, I was keen on going to the US, because I had heard a lot about the US my cousin had studied there. So keeping those two things in mind, I tried researching colleges. And funnily enough, there aren't a lot of athletes at that point of time. And even now, actually, to a certain extent, there aren't a lot of options for top business programs at the undergraduate level. So if you, like I said, most of you know, Harvard or Stanford, at the NBA level, you will have, you know, Penn NYU, you have a couple of public universities like Michigan, Texas, UNC Chapel Hill, and those not. So I was just very keen on sort of seeing what is the best option available for me. And, you know, I applied, I was lucky to sort of graduate from there, or in honestly, speaking now, I know, the topic of discussion is would I go to Wharton? I think for me, the bigger question is, would I even get into Wharton, you know, at the undergraduate level, it's just so competitive. Now, it's got such a strong brand name. And there's more and more people who, who want to do that, I think I was very keen that I wanted to do it, I think I'd fit very well, for me also, because Ben as a whole is a very good school, you know, in terms of curriculum, faculty, classmates access opportunities. Philly, as a City, Philadelphia, the city is, is just great. And that's one thing that's actually improved. More than been the one thing that's improved more than been the last 15 years is Philadelphia, the city is become much, much more vibrant, it's become a great college city to be in. And one thing that Penn actually helps students and you know, a lot of the Australian students might be interested in is they have this call this concept called the one university concept, where even though you apply to a certain school, so let's say you apply to work may apply to the School of Engineering, you can still take classes in the other school, so you can take classes in a nursing school, and, you know, the College of Arts and Sciences and communication school or any of the many schools that they have. And I think that definitely helps you, I had friends of mine who were in the nursing program, so they take classes in nursing, I was very interested in American history. So I took classes in American history. So I think overall, you know, that's a benefit that you get of attending Penn is even though you're studying, you know, you're focusing concentrating on business at the undergraduate level, you can also take classes around it. The other thing, the big difference, also between undergraduate studies and an MBA is at an MBA, you're sort of focused on just MBA, you can't take these classes outside of your curriculum, while at the undergraduate level, I'm still doing, you know, business, finance, marketing, and accounting, but I can still take classes in your nursing classes, art history classes, or whatever I want. Podcast Host 08:26 I've heard that Penn does have that really fantastic diversity of scores that you say, and you can go and do a bit of everything. I think a lot of students look at these, you know, the Ivy League universities, and they kind of equate them all to be roughly the same. But each university does have some pretty much outstanding feature, which is very different to everyone else. And I think that's probably the one that you penned that seems to stand out. But in terms of the competitiveness, I think that's Of particular interest to our listeners, and you mentioned, as well, as someone who is still, you know, interviewing students in the area, it's obviously something that you're still a part of, in terms of not necessarily how competitive it's become. But what has made it to become so competitive, like what are the qualities of the students that is making it competitive? What are you starting to see in terms of the trends of people who are applying to a university like UPenn? Rohan 09:13 Absolutely. So just off the bat, you know, obviously, in terms of competition or exclusivity, or however hard to get into, you know, this year and last year have just been very different because of the pandemic. But in general, obviously, like other good schools, is a very competitive school. So there are a few things that have changed that I've noticed that have changed, right. One is I think, in terms of the kind of students who are attending or applying to Wharton specifically, they're more focused on your entrepreneurship initiative and getting things done starting things, not fearing failure, but sort of embracing it, and less so much on being like, hey, I want to learn the traditional finance grade sets. I want to learn how to, you know, make Excel spreadsheets I want to learn how to make financial models. I want to learn You know, the traditional skill sets that you need, I also think there's been less emphasis on leadership, it still is an important part of your application, it's still an important part of the demographics of students who attend Penn. But I think the main change has been, you know, that students are more keen on, you know, entrepreneurship, taking initiative, trying things out, starting things up being a part of a team, as opposed to just being like, hey, I want to be a leader, and I want to have followers, then compared to people who, you know, earlier on Well, I guess, and I won't go into traditional investment banking, or I want to go into traditional private equity. And those require skill sets at a slightly more different and they're still available, but not as much in demand. I think the second thing is that, you know, critical thinking, you know, just being able to think through a problem or think through a situation has become very important. And the focus initially was obviously, on your analytical skills on your quantitative skills, when you were at Penn in your classes sort of reflected that as well. But what's changed now is, you know, being put in a situation being given a problem being given a circumstance and being able to sort of think yourself through it, you know, as part of a team. So I think critical thinking also, you know, it's, it's not something that's called very easily measured quantitatively. But again, it's an important part that comes out, especially in applications, you know, through teacher recommendations through essays, and what they encourage a lot more now in classes, you know, just literally, let's discuss, you know, let's, let's see what your thinking capabilities are. And yeah, I think you know, those two in terms of the students, I think, on the non student side, obviously, the opportunities that you mentioned earlier, the jobs in the opportunities post graduation have also changed. Podcast Host 11:43 Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get into that in a second. But one thing that came to mind was, you are chatting there is, who do you think shapes the university culture or shapes the university's reputation more thought you might have a good view as someone who has both been a student at the University, and has been, you know, a part of the community and the alumni network for the last 15 years? Like, where is the trend toward that entrepreneur side of things coming from? Is that, as I said, like the university pushing that way? Or is it the students pushing that way? Rohan 12:15 Yeah, that's a good question. I actually think it's a bit of both. And one is, I think, even students themselves are becoming more and more aware of the kind of opportunities that are available, you know, the becoming more and more excited about starting things. And, you know, being part of small companies, and I think that sort of reflects in the application that you're submitting to Wharton and to other similar universities, I think on the administration side, because they have so much knowledge until lunch awareness of what's going on, you know, especially when at work, and because of the MBA level, they seen, the change in jobs, the trending, changing jobs, they're also getting all these applications from all over. And the like, Listen, you know, these students are not wanting to come to study traditional finance, or want to know how to value companies, they want to come here to become entrepreneurs, they want to come here to start companies, they want to come here because they want to meet other people like themselves. So I think it's a bit of both, I think Wharton themselves has been very conscious of that, and has been very slightly ahead of the curve as well, because they've, while they've kept the traditional subjects in place, so let's say, you know, let's take an example of marketing. You know, they've, they've kept marketing, it's still a very important and very popular concentration at Wharton. They've actually changed the curriculum to more reflect, you know, digital marketing to reflect influencer marketing to reflect what is the sort of the trends today. So I think someone who ended up going to the site can get a good combination of your foundation level knowledge. Plus, you know, what is trending today? What's important today? And what it is that you're going to learn? So yeah, just to answer your question, I think it's a bit of both push and pull. It's some sound coming from the student side, and then a lot also, the administration being aware of what's changing. Podcast Host 14:03 It's interesting to look at how students are going toward and for that community and finding like minded people, rather than necessarily for like the hard skills of starting a business. They're looking for possibly co founders at Wharton, rather than necessarily you know, how to learn a financial model, whatever it might be. Do you think that's like a good enough reason to go to a Ivy League University and to invest that time and effort and money into an Ivy League degree to primarily Well, not necessarily primarily, but certainly with the intent of being a part of a community of like minded people? Rohan 14:39 Yeah, I think what's important to for students to understand when applying to universities, you know, in the US and otherwise, to other countries as well is a lot of it is about fit, you know, you want you need to find the place where you fit the best fits the best fit for you as well. And whether that's an Ivy League school, or whether that's a small liberal arts college, or whether they Public, large public university, they're all very different, and but they all could be, you know, a good fit for different students. So I think it's very important, you know, and for people to sort of understand that that ranking is not the only thing, you know, what is a very good school, it's a good place for it might not be the right fit for many students, you know, and that's where the whole admission process comes in, in terms of just understanding what the fit is. I think in general, it's, people are becoming aware that, you know, I sort of want to not know, I'm also learning in the classroom, I'm learning a lot of these concepts, you know, financial modeling is still important, because you want to be able to understand how these things work. But like you said, You know, I want to meet like minded people, I want to see if these are people that I enjoy just spending four years of my life with, I can sort of have friendships with for the rest of my life, and also see if I can find a co founder or a business partner in that. But yeah, I think a lot of it is about fit both from you know, do you fit to the university? And is the university a good fit for you? Podcast Host 15:59 That whole fit thing is a huge part of the conversation around the admissions time and making sure students are applying to the right universities. But in terms of your personal experiences, and whether you would go to Penn again, now not 15 years ago, Penn, but today Penn, would you go to pen for the same reasons that you originally went there? Rohan 16:20 So good question, you know, I and I think I would go to pen again, if I got it, let's put the disclaimer because I don't think I would get it now. It's just so so competitive, obviously. But not for all the same reasons that I did when I, when I went initially, you know, I think when I went initially I was looking for skill sets that were more traditional, like I said, you know, something like an accounting, you know, is not going to go away. But you don't need to go to Penn to learn accounting, you shouldn't go to Penn to your learn entrepreneurship, if you think that can be taught you want to be called upon to learn critical thinking you want to be developing, you know, building these networks. So I think, you know, having hindsight of having been to Penn went to Wharton, and then you know, the last 15 years of my life, I think, in general, I would go there, but not for the all the same reasons. I think, if I did go back, there are a few things that I do differently, you know, I'd be more active in terms of extracurricular wise, I wouldn't, obviously, you know, doing well in the classroom is important. But I would also spend more time just trying to explore other areas of the business world, I'd make more of an effort reaching out to both younger and older alumni, even when I was in college. That's something that I hadn't done. I've done more now since I've graduated, but not while while I was in college. But yeah, and I definitely would. And I think you know, it's important to also realize that one of the things all students are looking forward to post graduation is okay, where am I working? What am I doing? And sort of changed a lot, right? Traditionally, when I was at Penn, most of my friends and most students in general at Wharton, were looking at, you know, one or three opportunities, either investment bank by JP Morgan, or a consultancy, like, like McKinsey, or maybe something in the private equity world like Carlyle, Blackstone, that sort of formed a lot of most of our bulk of the opportunities that were available and that were being taken. I think now most of the poor people who want to go and apply are blank places like Amazon, Google, the larger tech companies in this much smaller tech companies that may have been founded by alumni 5678 years ago, but a become a certain skill now where they can come in actually hire from, from Penn Wharton. So those opportunities have also changed. And people don't want to be traditionally, you know, I don't know of anyone right now, who is who I know, at Wharton, who wants to do what I did 15 years ago who wants to go to JPMorgan and do investment banking, they want to start something they want to work in a small startup they want to they may not even want to be in the US. They want to be in Europe, in Asia, in other parts of the world. So I think that's changing as well. And I think that's something that Ben has been very, very conscious, often very, very good at is making sure that the students are getting enough opportunity and enough options in terms of exploring these different jobs and skill sets post graduation. Podcast Host 19:08 Yeah, actually, it reminds me of another question that I asked. I think it was when I had a chat with Evelyn about university research. And I asked her about how valuable the opinion of an alumni is for a student who's doing research on which University is best. And it's just amazing to hear like your example there that 15 years ago, people would have very different goals to what they have generally. Now, if you're to ask people graduating from Wharton, at what point would you say an alumni experience becomes less of an important factor in a student's choice? Rohan 19:44 Yeah, I think it just atrophies with age. So the longer the longer you're around less important. It could be but I think, you know, having said that, alumni also have perspective that is lifelong, you know, so I can still you know, if I know of anyone who's applying this year, I can still recommend I'm speaking to an alum who graduated 2025 years ago, because certain things are don't change, and you will all you learn a lot from age. So in from my experience, you know, if someone comes and asks for my advice, you know, I laid down to them in terms of you know what I did and give them my background. And I tell you tell them, Listen, you know, what's happening now is something that I'm not a part of. But I can tell you that these things haven't changed. So just think like the alumni network, it's that's only become bigger and better, that hasn't changed in the sense of, you know, things like that. Even if you're an alumni 15 years out, you probably have a better perspective than alumni who's five years out, because someone who's older is probably used the alumni network and part of the alumni network longer than someone who's younger, enrolled. I think if you know, things are changing so fast, it does atrophy with it. Podcast Host 20:44 Yeah, absolutely. Well, any final tips for students who are looking to go to some of the leading business schools in the world, including Wharton? Rohan 20:52 Yeah, I would just say a couple of things, right. One is, don't underestimate yourself. I think a lot of people are like, okay, these are the best schools? And do I really have the skill sets, just be honest, during the application process, present yourself, overall, as a student who's keen on going there? And I think second is specific from business perspective, just be very sure that this is what you want to do, because you will be spending four years for life at the undergraduate level, studying business concept. So be sure that that is something that's very important. Indeed, I think this put your best foot forward. And if you you know, if you have leadership qualities, if you have entrepreneurship skills, just make sure that those are the highlight in your application. Podcast Host 21:36 Absolutely. What we're hunting, it's been fantastic to chat. And I think we answered the question of would I attend Wharton, again, the answer is from your side. If I got admitted, I would, yes. If you got admitted, well, it is a tough gig. I know some students that we've had, go through the application process this year have certainly gained admission depend. And we'll be doing a new series starting soon featuring some recently admitted students from the world's top universities. But it's been awesome chatting today. And I think it's such a good thing to have that long term perspective, right, that it's not just about getting admission and getting a degree. It's about joining a lifetime or a lifelong network of high achievers from all around the world. And it's fantastic. You're leading the charge there in Delhi. I'm sure they're very delighted to have someone of your esteemed reputation there. So that's fantastic. But yeah, I look forward to publishing the episode and sharing it with everyone who's interested in business and getting into top universities in the US or the UK. Rohan 22:33 Thanks. It's been pleasure. Podcast Host 22:34 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#42 Designing Solar Cells, Writing Best Sellers and Having a Boss Mentality

🗓 APR 10, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And today I chat with 15 year old stem researcher and best selling author Naila Moloo. Naila is working on everything from a design for an improved solar cell, a photon rocket, a startup, the sequel to a best selling book, and a new series of books for children. We talk about how she manages her time, the challenging first publishing experience and having a boss mentality. Let's chat with Naila Moloo. Hey Naila, welcome to the top of the class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Naila 00:53 Yeah. So Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm Naila. I'm 15 years old. And I'm really passionate about the intersection between sustainable energy and nanotech. So I built some projects there like I recently designed a transparent and flexible solar cell leveraging nano materials. Right now I'm designing a solar cell fusion propelled rocket. So that's kind of been something I've been working with. And I also love to write. So I just got my debut novel published when I was 14 years old. And it was a bestseller and magical realism. And now I'm moving on to write a children's book series on emerging tech to kind of combine my passion for writing and stem. Podcast Host 01:36 Wow, where should we even start with all of that I should start with a rocket because that sounds pretty cool. And talk to me about the the rocket and what made you decide to get into that particular field? Naila 01:48 Yeah, so I'm really interested in sustainable energy I kind of always have been and something I became really passionate about this year was fusion energy. And I think it's something we hear and we're like, that's really far off. But I've been doing work in it for the entire year. And I truly think it is plausible, but I was looking at coming up with ideas in the field because I wanted to build a project in fusion. And so I was examining the quantum phenomena behind high temperature superconductivity. And I did a lot of work there. But it was more just like research papers. And then I pivoted to states, which is not what you expect. But spacecrafts can actually be propelled by fusion energy, which I didn't know. And I was pretty amazed by that. And so I was looking at these fusion propelled spacecraft, and asking myself, how can I make these better? And so I pulled in another sustainable energy, solar energy, and I looked at solar cells, and I was like, What if I could put solar cells on a fusion rocket that would be like, also propelled by photons, the sun's energy, and then just make it more faster and, you know, safer. So that's kind of something I've been designing right now. And I just wrote a paper on it, and I'm going to give a presentation on it in a few weeks. It's a long process with fusion, but it's definitely super fun and super enjoyable. Podcast Host 03:07 Wow, that sounds really cool. Are you well researched? Or are you a genius? Or are you both? Because, you know, like, this sounds? You know, a lot of these words, excuse me, I'm not a scientist. They're kind of slightly going over my head. Like, I've heard the one science fiction movies and stuff which recall, I'm sure there's people out there listening who are like, Alex, you're an idiot, you know, these are very easy to follow terms. But for me, it's a little bit like, wow, this is intense. So I'm asking the question, are you seen as like Mensa level kind of switched on super smart student? Or are you super just interested in the science field? And just really love reading about this kind of stuff and learning about this kind of stuff? Or are you a bit of both, perhaps. Naila 03:54 I mean, it definitely takes like a lot of research. I'm not just like born with this knowledge. But like, yeah, I've been like researching this for the entire year. And I've been trying to go beyond my scope of like, age level. So to understand the things I've been doing, I've been learning like advanced physics. And now I'm starting to learn calculus. So I can actually, like, be more legitimate in the field, but definitely, definitely takes research. I will not say it was like this crazy genius. Yeah, it definitely has, has taken a lot of time. I've been doing this for like, since September, I think, research into fusion, Podcast Host 04:31 you got a lot of mentors helping you as well. Naila 04:34 Yeah. Um, so within fusion, I've had like a mentor from Commonwealth fusion, who's kind of helped me like through my journey and like answered my questions. And she's like doing things in fusion like every single day. So it's been really awesome to have her and Commonwealth fusion is like a really big, awesome fusion company. So it might be somewhere like I may want to look out like interning or something in the future. So it's been super cool. And then I've also had a I mentor in nanotechnology and solar energy. So I would say mentors are very, very helpful because you're like, interacting with people who do these things for their entire life. And you'd be surprised by how many people are willing to help students. So yes, Podcast Host 05:15 yeah, well, that's something that I've seen a few times on the podcast where students have reached out to professors or professionals, and have found that the, you know, most of the time people are more willing to help than they first thought. Talk to me about your journey in kind of expanding your network. So you can access these kinds of people. And you can learn from them, like how did you even start that in terms of opening up the field of vision to these kinds of people out there? How did you identify these people as potential Helpers? And then, you know, how did you go out setting up the relationship? Naila 05:49 Yeah, so I guess my big tip would be like, set up a LinkedIn. And I never really knew, like, I don't know, I was like, how can I even reach these people, but you can go on LinkedIn, you can, like look up, fusion energy expert, or something like that. And they're just like, a ton of people will come up, and you can just message them and be like, would you be open to a 15 minute Google meet? And obviously not everybody's going to respond, but some people will respond. And then you just set up a Google meet with them. And you ask them some questions. And then some people that like I've really vibed with, and I really look up to, I asked them to be my mentor. And you know, like, some people like they might say, No, and sometimes it's scary to reach out to these experts here is like, oh, there's so much better than me, why would they want to like, talk to like a student like me, but really, people are willing to help. And it's really valuable to have like experts in the field helping you out. And networking is just so great. It could also open up like more opportunities down the line. That is definitely not the point of networking. But like, if you build a relationship and you get mentor, then you could get potential internships or job shadows or things down the line. So definitely building your network is a great idea. And you can start when you're young. And I think before this year, I just thought like, Oh, that's like for, you know, like, when I'm an adult, I'll do that in too young to do that right now. But you really can do it at any age. So start now. Podcast Host 07:11 Yeah, you dominate LinkedIn. I mean, you post a lot of content, you put a lot of great articles on there. And like, that's one of the reasons why we got in touch. But yeah, I think it's interesting that you went from like the 15 minute Google mate to then having a mentor, do you just kind of straight out ask them, Hey, I'm looking for a mentor, and I think you're a good fit. Is that is that kind of like what you're doing on the call? Or how does that even happen? Naila 07:35 Oh, I'll ask them and be like, I'm kind of looking for a mentor right now. Do you know anybody who would be willing to mentor me, they'll be like, Oh, I can mentor you. Or if they're not open to mentoring you. They'd be like, Oh, my gosh, I know, this really great person who would be willing to maybe mentor you, I can give you their contact information, then you're building out your network. So I see benefits either way. And honestly, like, the worst case scenario is that they're just like, no, like, you don't use anything. It might, it may not feel good. And that's why people might be scared to ask in the first place. But the benefits really outweigh the the downside. So I would just say go for it may be scary at first, that boss mentality. Yeah, Podcast Host 08:14 yeah. Yeah. Well, I love the tactic of just kind of subtly asking, Hey, do you know anybody who would potentially be able to mentor Australia at ask could come across a little orcs. But, you know, the kind of sidewise that I think that was very clever. In terms of your learning journey. Right now? How far along? Do you feel like you are in these fields? Because some people would say, you know, mentally, they'll say, Well, how far could a 15 year old be in these kinds of fields? You've got these mentors who've been doing it most of their life? You've been doing it since September? How far do you think you are towards where they are in their journey? Naila 08:51 Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely learning a lot. But there's still a lot more to learn. So I think kind of the key is, like, definitely, I realized fusion energy. So you would think of it as kind of a narrow sector, right? But then when you go into your like, there's so many different parts of this. So focus on a niche part of something and then learn as much as you can in it. But don't only do it in one field, because what have you learned something and then something else comes out and you're like, Oh, I never even needed needed to know that there's something that just solves that issue. I think it's all about building your T. So that's why like, I'm trying to do projects in many different fields. And then that also allows you to intersect these different things. So you can be not far long down as somebody who obviously is an expert in the field, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable in fusion as my mentors. But if I have like, I'm like, some knowledge in fusion, I build products there and nanotechnology and like AI or something, and then you like intersect them, then you can come up with really neat ideas. So like, definitely don't let the fact that you're young prohibit you. They're done. Definitely is a lot to learn. I feel like when you learn about something, you realize there's so much you don't know. And that's a good thing. You know, like, it's good, there's, it's fun, you should be enjoying it. So I think that would kind of be my advice there. Just like building out your tea in different topics and not worrying about the fact that you may not be as progress, because that definitely comes with time. Podcast Host 10:23 Yeah, now, I love the term building your team. And that's a, I guess, a college admissions term that I usually hear being at crimson. And you know, the understanding that a T shaped student is something that you know, some students should aspire to, I would love for you to kind of give an explanation in the context of your interests as to how you are building your T so our listeners can understand what exactly is that because it feels like for you, that kind of mental image of building out your T seems to give your learning a little bit more structure. And it's not necessarily haphazard running around trying to read as many things as you possibly can. But it's like, Okay, I'm building this out. This is what my table ended up looking like. So if you can explain what that T looks like for you, and for the benefit of our listeners, Naila 11:09 yeah. So I don't think like building your ci is just about like, Oh, I read an article on carbon capture. I read an article on this, I watched a video on this, I have some surface level knowledge in these things. I think it's about like building deep knowledge in many different fields. So for me, like I gone deep into fusion, I've gone deep into nanotech, and I've gone deep into solar energy. And also I've done some stuff in writing. And then like, also like playing sports and things like that. So just being balanced. And I still have a lot more to do. But I think it's about building projects in many different fields, because you can have surface level knowledge, but where you really grow is by going deep into different fields. And by building your tea, just like the most innovative solutions of the future are where you intersect crazy things that no one's thought of, because you can have an expert in a specific field, but then someone comes in and they have expertise in this field, but also to others. And then they're intersecting them to create something just like absolutely groundbreaking. So I think that's what like building your ci is about, like finding a balance doing many different things, and building projects in many different things. Podcast Host 12:19 Yeah, so the T shapes, but your pointy part of the t would be like sorry, if you visualize for the listeners benefit, this is how I'm thinking of it. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, because I often am a kind of an upside down T, you've got that T shaped with a big spike in the middle, right. And for you that's kind of nanotech sustainable energy, possibly some offering as well as like, it's a fat pointy part of the day for you, I guess you got a lot of strengths, right. But then outside of that you've got some other you know, strengths as well, or you've got some other things that you're interested in. But I really liked that idea of like, putting in the work to create a project in that space. Because it's hard to go deep when you've just said, Oh, you know, I've read an article and watched a video. I feel like I know, you know, enough, right? You're like, that's a part of my team now. No, no, you got to put in the work you got to put in that project. Which brings me to, I guess one of your first projects, which sounds like it was the solar cell side of things. Can you take me through? Like, how do you go about building that? Like, is it something that you go to your school science teacher and say, Hey, can I borrow the lab for a bit? Like, how does that even come about? Naila 13:27 Yeah, so like going into this year, I kind of had this goal of building a better solar panel, I was like, I have no idea how I'm gonna do that. But I want to build a better solar panel. So Oh, by the way. So it started with a lot of research, definitely. And so I was like researching, and then also networking. And I had this amazing mentor in solar energy, who really helped me out there. And then from there, I was just like asking questions, and I wrote, like my first scientific paper on quantum dots, which is a really handy nano material used in solar cells. And then I was like, okay, so I wrote papers, I wrote a lot of articles, I watched a lot of videos. And I was like, Okay, I want to come up with an idea. I want to actually build a project so that I can become more knowledgeable in this field. And so I'm going to build a better solar panel. And I wanted to be transparent, and I wanted it to be flexible. So it took a lot of research and a lot of networking. And a lot of time, like I think, Well, I think I did it over like a timespan of two months. But like at every point I was talking to people about and I was like, does this part Make sense? Does this part makes sense? And if I hadn't network with these people throughout that then I would have just gone with like, my like instincts and stuff like that, which aren't like particularly going to work. So I think that was a really helpful part for me. And then I wrote a paper on it. And I actually designed a 3d model of it as well, because I haven't actually built it out yet. It's more just a design right now. But I'm trying to like submit it to competitions Do you have funding and things like that and I'm maybe building it out on a summer internship at cutie solar, but we will see. So hopefully I will get to actually build it. But right now it's just a design that mainly came from exposure, then research, then networking, and then like writing my own articles, and then building projects, Podcast Host 15:15 that's really cool that you have this goal of building a better solar cell. And I would have thought that for a student your age, you would have probably thought that well, you know, this is a cool idea. But surely there's other people working on it as well. So what then makes you feel like you are able to enter that conversation and be part of that solution, as, you know, 1415 year old because I think a lot of people would say, there should be a better solar cell out there. I hope someone's working on it, and then just leave it to other people to solve, right? Whereas you were like, there's got to be something better out there. And then Okay, I'm going to start learning. So for you, what's that kind of mental jump, like to actually start thinking of yourself as being part of the solution? Naila 15:59 Yeah, I've always wanted to make like impact in sustainable energy. And I've wanted to make a real difference in the field. And there are people who are going to notice things and not do anything about them. But I think we need people who are going to notice things and then do something about it. And maybe that comes from a fear of failure, where they're like, I don't I don't know how I'm going to do that. Like, why would I even try. And at first I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do that. But if you're actually passionate about it, then go deeper and realize that you are capable of you have a project that you want to build, even if it might fail, go for it, because you'll probably learn a ton in the in the process. And even if it doesn't end up working out, like that's completely okay, at least you tried and you probably gained a ton. So I think like, people are afraid of failure. And that's where a lot of people's downfalls are. But Don't make excuses. Don't let those things prohibit you just go for it and embrace that boss mentality. And they have said this already, but like boss mentality is really important and knowing that you are capable of doing something like this, but you do have to be able to put in the time. And if it's not something that interests you, then don't put in the time for it. But if it is something that you really want to make happen, like make it happen, or try to at least Podcast Host 17:14 Yeah, well expand for us bust mentality a little bit, because it sounds like it's a pretty crucial part of your mental strength to get through some of these barriers and challenges. So yeah, what's what's boss mentality made to you? And how is there any like particular moment where it's like, No boss mentality kicks in and like you push forward and go on to the next challenge? Naila 17:34 Yeah, I think you need boss mentality to be able to do really great things, because you might be like in this conference room, or about to build a project, but then there's that thing in your mind that's like, Oh, you might fail at this, oh, what if somebody judges you, and it's just getting past that, and being like, I don't, I don't really care. Like, I'm gonna own it. It's all about just like owning it. And you're just like, I have something like not being afraid to speak up. Don't be afraid to use your voice, you have a voice. So you that you can do incredible things. But first, you need to like accept yourself and accept that you do have, you do have this potential. But you need to get past these barriers of fear. Fear is a really prominent thing that like maybe fear of being judged or fear of failure. And that's what stops people from going out and doing things that they love, Boss mentality, you look at, like all these amazing people who are doing amazing, innovative things. And they have boss mentality, because they weren't afraid to speak up and use their voice. And obviously, it's easier said than done, like, put into practice. And you know, like, maybe it's when you're in a classroom and the teacher asks a question, raise your hand, if you have an idea. Even if you're scared to fail, we get a construct with little things. But boss mentality, I think is something that I really had to embrace this year. And, you know, for even for things like network game, you need that boss mentality to be able to reach out and be able to say, okay, they might not say yes, but they might say yes, Podcast Host 19:03 yeah, yeah. Well, it's like that idea of character acting in a way. And when you take on the mentality of a boss, you're like, what would a boss do in this situation? They would do this, this this business, you know, they, they wouldn't just sit there and be passive, they would go out there and, you know, start networking, they would ask those questions, they'll use their voice. And it's like, using that boss mentality to kind of take on another character kind of outside of what you would usually be comfortable with is like, yeah, bodying the boss, Naila 19:34 like not going to Sunday meeting like, I'm better than everybody else here. But being like, I know I have things to bring and I'm not worse than anybody here. It's kind of a misconception, like boss mentality isn't being arrogant. It's just being like confident in yourself are very different things. Yes. Podcast Host 19:50 It's not arrogance, it's confidence. But one of the questions that I have for you at this stage is a you a full time or part time student and I don't mean By like, the literal sense of, you know, how many hours do you go to school a week. But I mean that from the sense of like your approach to your time management in general, because you've got a lot of other things going on. And I think some people say, Well, I'm at school 830, till three or 4pm. Every day, I've got extracurriculars as well, therefore, I am a full time student, and they don't really have much time for anything else outside of that. Whereas, you know, at the moment, we've been chatting about everything else, but school. So it makes me feel like for you, you must think of school is like your part time side hustle, and your full time stuff as like your, you know, sustainable energy and your passions and interests outside of school. But is that how you say it as well? Naila 20:46 Yeah, for sure. I think before like, in the past years, I've been like putting so many hours into school and like doing these projects, I was out of school, I got a class I'm for, but I would just do it outside of school. And I would study obsessively for a test, you know, just to get like those amazing grades. But what I've realized is like, you can put a little less time, obviously, it's important to study, but when you're studying just for the sake of studying and you know, the material, you're not gaining anything, and you would be gaining so much more if you were building a project and something that interested you. And I realized that this year, and I was like, I have so much time, I'm just not using it to the best of my ability. So I can still do school. And I can still work on projects outside of school, it's just about the balance. And I found that like that works really well. It's just about like balancing your time. And making sure like you have the objectives that you want to hit in a day, like write it down the day before, like the night before. And then just hit them like time block, if that works for you just like make sure that you're not only doing things just for a grade, because that's not always what's going to make you grow the most. What's going to make you grow the most is doing things that put you outside of your comfort zone, and that are kind of like self LED. It's not for grade, it's not for affirmation. It's for your own joy and your own passions. Podcast Host 22:11 I love that answer. I love that response. And I love that mindset shift that you underwent to realize how much time you had, and how much time you perhaps were spending studying something you already knew. And I think that, you know, goes back to exam anxiety or like that mindset that, you know, students, their job is to study and they should just, even if they know the content, they should just repeat it again, just in case, right? And it's an interesting moment where you're like, actually, no, I know this topic already. I need to move on and then focus my time elsewhere in the passions that I have. Is there any particular test or time or, you know, moment where you're like, I'm really passionate about sustainable energy. And yet here I am, you know, studying for something rather exam, like what am I doing with my time. Naila 22:57 So I began really exposing myself to these emerging technologies is here. And so I was like looking at fusion energy. And I was looking at nanotech. And I was reading about all these things. And I was like, I can be doing so much with this, I can be writing papers on this and going deep into this stuff. And yet, I'm studying like 30 hours for a task, just repeating material over and over and over again, for something that's not even going to have like a long term effect then, and stuff like that, not to say don't study, but like study, like effectively, because you need to value your time and and make time for for things that that aren't just for school. So I think just at the beginning of the year, when I found out about all these really cool technologies that I hadn't even been looking into, I was like, wow, I need to be looking into these I need to be finding out more about them and about other technologies, I need to kind of rethink how I'm spending my time. Podcast Host 23:53 Yeah, well, I think it's a great message for students in general, because I think there's, there's so much potential that students have. But you know, as I said, a lot of the time they've they've got they've spent looking at, you know, exams and studying material for school. And after a while I feel the students who add they're pretty confident with that material, move on, do something else. And don't think like, Oh, I'm done for the day, like my, you know, confidence is up, I'm good. I don't have to study anymore. start learning something new, you know, as you found with emerging tech, now, with all these emerging texts, and all these kind of cool areas that you're into, how are you getting introduced to them? Naila 24:31 So this year, I joined like this program called the knowledge society. And it's basically a student accelerator program. And it really focuses on emerging tech. So that's how I found out about all these cool emerging technologies. And there's like these explore modules like compilations of resources on a specific topic. And so you can just go in, you can learn about so many different things. And so I think for students, you can find something you're really interested about, and you can like find a course on it and There'll be, it's basically a compilation of resources and and you can build projects in it. But it starts with exposure. So expose yourself to these things and take the initiative to learn about them. Don't like you're done studying, I'm gonna watch Netflix for four hours straight. Like you can learn things outside of school, even if they're not being directly taught you take that initiative and and discover your passions, you can start building projects, but expose yourself to a ton of different things for sure. There's so many things available online. Podcast Host 25:31 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, even like, Coursera, Udemy, YouTube. So many. Yeah. And shout out to tks. Of course, the knowledge society, actually, Crimson now has a partnership with tks. But yeah, let's talk about the authorship side of things. Because obviously, that's a big part of your life, and something you're really proud of, as well, what inspired you or encourage you to go into that direction and actually start writing? Naila 25:55 Yeah, so I've been writing since like, a very young age. And I always really loved writing fantasy, because I love the idea of it just being me and my imagination, I could do whatever I want it like I could create my own worlds, I could create my own creatures, my own, like superpowers for characters. And so I always loved that idea of things. And I started out just writing short stories on paper. And then so I did that. And I was like, submitting that to competitions and things like that. And then in grade three, I wrote my first novel, and that was underwater paradise. So that was about mermaids. And then I kept going, I kept writing. And a key tip that I use was notebooking, I got a lot of inspiration from there. And that's when you carry around like a little notebook with you wherever you go. And anything interesting, you see like somebody's outfit, or like a pretty sky, or really any idea that pops into your head, I read it down, and then I'll write over the summer, and I'll be scrolling or flipping through my notebook. And just so many ideas will begin to flow because everything from the year is just like in there just so many different ideas. So I recommend that definitely for aspiring authors. But anyway, I kept writing. And then in grade six, I was like, Okay, I really want to get published. I want my own published book. And so I wrote a novel called action stars. And I got a professional editor and I went through like the whole deal. I was querying agents. I was querying publishers. And I was like, Okay, this is great. I'm getting published. And what I got instead was about 60. rejections. I just got like, every single person, like I reached out, like, 100 people, and they just, I was like, okay, that's cool. It's not what I was expecting. But okay, a little bit disheartened. But it also motivated me further, and I was like, okay, that's fine. I'm getting, I'm gonna go for it. I'm gonna do it again, I still want to get published. So I went back to the drawing board, I wrote another book. And then I got it professionally edited. And I was sending it to agents and publishing houses. And then I actually did get a contract offer. So that was about I was 13. I wrote it when I was 12. I got the contract when I was 13. And then it was released when I was 14. So it took two years, um, all in all to get it out there. But it was definitely worth it. It was such a fun journey. And I've always, I've always loved writing because I think you can interweave real world problems into what you do. And I read a lot. So I see how life changing some books can be. And I really want to have that effect on my reader. Podcast Host 28:26 Oh, that's amazing. And what's the book called that ended up getting published? Naila 28:29 It's called chronicles of illusions, the blue wild? Podcast Host 28:32 And is it based on your life? Naila 28:34 It's a fantasy book. So it definitely there's a lot of magic magical elements incorporated into it. But yeah, I think more specifically, a magical realism genre. Podcast Host 28:45 Right. That's fantastic. And it ended up doing pretty well as well. I understand from sales subjective. Naila 28:50 Yeah, I haven't gotten this specific skill sales yet, because it was just released on February 25. So I got like the actual stats every six months. But it did place first on the bestseller list and magical realism on Amazon, which was exciting. But I haven't actually gotten stats yet. Congratulations. I Podcast Host 29:07 know. I know. It's like such an amazing moment to hold that book in your hand for the very first time as a published author. Have you got plans to write again? Naila 29:16 Yeah, so I wrote the sequel recently. I'm in the editing process with it. So I think editing will be done by the end of June, I think takes a long time. But after that, my goal is to get a contract offer by the end of this year. And then it'll probably take like I took a year to be released from the time I got the contract. So hopefully, I'll get the contract by the end of this year, and then it might take a year to come out. But also I'm writing a children's book series on emerging technology right now. So that's another project I'm pursuing right now, which is this has been a really fun it's a little bit difficult to dumb down these like difficult topics, but I think it's important for younger people to know about because Cuz it's really going to be impacting their lives. And it seems like AI and blockchain and fusion energy and nanotech that even some people my age don't know about. And some people who are older don't know about. So I think it'll be valuable. And Podcast Host 30:14 some people, some people my age don't know that either. Naila 30:17 Yeah, so I think it's important for people to know about because it's gonna have such a great impact on the future. So the demographic there is kind of five to seven year olds. So it's definitely not what I'm used to in writing, because it's mostly been novels. And now I'm doing like, shorter stories, but it's really fun. So yeah, Podcast Host 30:34 yeah, no, that that's really, really cool. Well, I'm interested in how long these books are the fantasy books, and what is your process or tips for aspiring authors, I love notebooking as a tip, but like, I would have thought that, you know, if you're writing a book that is, say, 150 200 pages, that firstly is a daunting task, like when you're a student, you like 1000 word, essay, oh, my God, like, you're out there writing like a, you know, 150 200 page book potentially. And then there's that also, I guess, that temptation to keep, even though it's like a finished product to keep going back to it, and mainly, just just a little improvement here, just a little improvement there. And it's like, never good enough to send off to publishers. So there must be a time and you know, when you as an author, we're like, actually, no, it's done. I now I have to give it over to the editor and let them deal with it. Naila 31:24 Yeah. So in terms of how long it is, it's so it's around 80,000 words. So it's around 300 pages. And I think the process that it kind of looks like So first, you come up with the idea, right? And that can be sparked from notebooking. And then you have to actually write the manuscript. And that that takes a while. But I think scheduling time into your life for writing is really integral because people will say, Oh, yeah, I'll write a book, but then they don't actually book out time in their lives for it. And you should do it consistently. Like, you don't need to say, I want to get this done in like, two months, let's go get it done somehow, like actually, just, if you want to write for an hour consistently every day, then don't do it at like 12, like midnight, like do it maybe wake up early in the morning, you when your brain is still fresh, and you actually want to write, so that's one of my tips. And then professional editors, mine really helped me, especially since I don't really know like what I was doing in terms of getting published. So to help with that, for sure. And once you get an editor, you'll kind of go back and forth for maybe like five months with edits and things like that and making it better. And from there, you'll kind of just know, you'll feel that it's ready, it's gone through editing, you've worked a long time with it, I feel like you'll just know, and then you have to query publishing houses, and you have to query agents around like 100, you have to wait a few months for them to get back to you. And that's writing broken down in a very simple way. It's not as simple as that. But I think my main tip with writing that I give writers is having perseverance, because when I saw all those rejections, definitely it was a little bit disheartening, but I kept going. And if I didn't, then I never would have gotten a book published. So every aspect of writing can be difficult. Just try to enjoy the right like, enjoy the process. Because writing the book, you know, that can get frustrating. You're like, what do I want to happen next, I don't know what to do, I'm going to give up. But you need to have perseverance and keep going. And in editing, you might be like, Oh, I this is like taking so long. My editor gave me this change that it takes so long to put in. I don't want to do this anymore, then you stop writing, but keep going. There's like the publishing phase too. So it's just enjoying every part of it. Because it is supposed to be fun. And it is supposed to bring you joy. It's not supposed to be like a stressful experience. And us as humans, like when there's resistance, we just want to stop. But when there's resistance, that's when things get interesting. Just to keep going at it. You totally got this. Podcast Host 33:51 Oh, I love that mindset when things get tough. That's when things get interesting. Sorry, you're right. You got to keep pushing, keep pushing through, you know, they say you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So who are they for you? Naila 34:05 Yeah, so I think a lot of my TKS friends are working on similar projects. I'm like, not within, like fusion energy, maybe, but like in AI and these kinds of emerging technologies. And they're building a lot of products there. And they're all very supportive. They're all super awesome, and, like crazy smart. So it's great to be surrounded by those kind of people. I mean, obviously my school friends are great as well. And then my family is super supportive as well, which I'm really lucky for. My sister is like my best friend. She's amazing. She's in grade 11 right now. So she's two years older than me, but she is so intelligent. She's so nice and humble. And I really look up to her. So she definitely helped to really shape the person that I am. She's just amazing. So I'm very lucky to have her. Podcast Host 34:53 That's super sweet. Yeah, like it's great to have people around you who are doing similar things right? Because it doesn't Feel like yeah, then that you are kind of taking on these things and potentially sacrificing better grades at school for your sustainable energy project. Does that mean like if you see other people doing it like Well, okay, this is like the damn thing and we're all doing stuff and we're all potentially making an impact which is which is really, really cool. So what's next for you? Obviously like the the next book, the sequels coming out, you're, you're doing these cool projects and rocketry and solar cells and everything. What could possibly be next for you? Are you always trying to level up a little bit more? So are you going to be like, going for, you know, cool internships, you said you probably going to be doing the internship at the solar cell company as well. There's a lot of things going on. I'll leave it to you to explain as to what the next kind of six to 12 months looks like for you. Naila 35:45 Yeah, so definitely the children's book series, I'm going to be hassling for sure. And the sequel, and then this photon fusion propelled to rocket design I'll be working on. And right now I'm actually also doing a project with the United Nations where I'm building an all girls after school boarding school program in Kenya, Nairobi, Nairobi, Kenya. And I did that with a group of four other students in TKS. So we're working on building that out with the United Nations. So hopefully, we'll we'll get some more progress there. And I'm also working with three other people right now, one of them being my sister, to create a startup in emerging tech, I guess, we're not entirely sure what exactly we're doing. But right now, we are thinking of maybe making a bra that can detect if you have breast cancer. And so that's not definite. But it would use like kaizo, electric nano crystals and be like hooked up to an app as well. So you could see kind of the symptoms, because that's a really big problem, you'll only go like when you see symptoms, and a lot of the time that's too late, or if you have other family who's gotten it. And so it is pretty common in women. So I think that would be super cool. If that if that could exist. So that's something I'll definitely be working on as well. And I'm just going to be keeping building projects in these emerging technologies. So I may, I may build a few more projects with solar energy and fusion energy, or I may pivot to something else. I think I might do some more work in artificial intelligence. And I'm learning how to code right now. So I'm gonna keep going with some coding products as well. But yes, I think those are the main kind of things that I'm looking at right now. And then over the summer internship, I cutie solar is not definite, but hopefully I'll get to do something there. But I definitely do want to do some kind of internship to to grow my skills over the summer. So we'll see where that takes me. But but yeah... Podcast Host 37:39 yeah, wow, what a what a busy and exciting next six months. definitely exciting. And in terms of university, have you put much thought towards that at this stage? I mean, you're from Canada, you're looking at local Canadian universities or elsewhere, abroad, perhaps US, UK etc. Naila 37:57 Yeah, so right now, my dream school would be MIT. I just think they have so many great programs within like stem. They're really known for that. So MIT is kind of where I'm looking at going right now. But obviously, I still have some years left. So I'm not sure, exactly. But that's kind of what I'm aiming for right now. Podcast Host 38:21 Yeah, well, we did have MIT student body president on the on the top of the class A couple of weeks ago. So Danielle, and we spoke about life at MIT and her position as the student body president. So that's probably worth elicit as well. And she talks a bit about her backstory and how she got into MIT as well. Because it is pretty competitive, as we have seen in the latest admissions around like, a lot of these top universities accepting very few students. But I think if they were going to accept anyone, you are definitely on that trajectory to students who are wanting to follow and connect with you. The best way to do that would be LinkedIn. Is that correct? Naila 38:58 Yeah, for sure. If anyone like listening has any questions, I would just love to connect with anybody. So yeah, for sure, definitely reach out on LinkedIn. Podcast Host 39:05 Great, well, I'll put that in the show notes so people can reach out to you. And obviously like if no students want to follow along with your stories and with your, your articles, as well, as I said, You're prolific on the platform. And I don't know how you find time to write books and all these articles, but you do, which is awesome. So yeah, you're definitely putting out some really great work there and help students understand these emerging tech through your experiences. But now, it's been awesome having you on the show. It's been an absolute delight to chat and to learn all about your experiences in emerging tech as well as your work in writing. And I'm sure students will appreciate all the amazing tips you've given from storyboarding to time blocking to, you know, networking, mentoring, everything. So thank you so much for joining us the top of the class. Yeah, I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

#10 College Tips - Got a Dream School? Here's What You Should Have Instead

🗓 APR 7, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to college tips. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with Crimson Education strategist and Harvard Graduate School of Education student, Mason Hill, as today is Ivy day, Mason chats about the danger of having the one dream school and what students can do to come away from the unit application process. With a positive mindset, no matter the results. Let's chat with Mason Hill. Hi, Mason, welcome to the college tips podcast. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Mason 00:51 Great. Well, thank you so much for having me. My name is Mason and I'm originally from Los Angeles, California. I went to undergrad at UC Santa Barbara where I studied communication in psychology as a double major and minor in music. I got to know the university really well through my academic departments. But I was also really involved. In extracurriculars, I was part of orientation programs for two cycles, I was a Resident Assistant, the president of the multicultural drama company, I studied abroad, I did research in the Communication Department. So I knew a lot of different avenues of the institution so that when I graduated, it was a really good fit to become an admissions officer. So I did admissions, the whole recruiting situation and reading applications from 1000s and 1000s of students all over the world, serving on boards, committees, all of those types of things, and did that for a total of three years before I left the states in 2017, settled in 2018 in Vietnam, and then was teaching English as a foreign language specializing in IELTS which is a English language proficiency exam that students need for universities in English speaking countries, and then found Crimson in 2018, and has been working as a strategist ever since. With crimson, I have had students get admitted to top schools. And so I'm very familiar with what looks good on applications. And then most recently, kind of the silver lining of COVID was that a lot of universities went virtual. And so I took advantage of an opportunity for Harvard's Graduate School of Education, who reopened their applications for students in different time zones. So in addition to working with crimson, I am also a part time grad student at Harvard's Graduate School of Education. Podcast Host 02:29 Yeah, busy busy. I'm sure that is a fantastic opportunity. Actually, funnily enough, I was looking at applying to the Harvard Graduate School of Education as well when I saw that they were going online. But it is quite an application process. And you got to be really committed to do it. And is it a weird timezone for you? Or do they make the classes available no matter where you are in the world? Mason 02:49 That's a great question. So we used the term synchronous and asynchronous more times than I want to count Yes, synchronous being that you have to be like in person in front of your computer logged on via zoom or any other type of virtual meeting space platform. And then offline components, which have been a lot easier I guess, for students in different time zones. Luckily for me, I'm based in Brisbane at the moment. Luckily for me, the timezone is quite convenient for me to take evening classes that are Boston time, which for me becomes morning, the next day. For other colleagues and peers that are in different time zones. It's way more challenging for them, particularly students that are in the Middle East. They have classes that are at like two 3am 4am. So that tends to get a little bit rough for them, but pretty much lucked out with where I'm currently based at the moment. Podcast Host 03:40 Yeah, I guess that kind of tests your commitment, but you definitely lucked out, but being the Brisbane timezone there. But yeah, let's get into today's topic. Obviously, it's IV day to day, it's a day filled with a lot of excitement, a lot of probably equal amounts of disappointment around the world. But what topic Do you particularly want to chat about today? Mason 03:59 Yeah, so it's kind of indirect reference to Ivy Day. And it's this whole concept or notion of dream schools. This is a term that gets thrown out all the time in the world of higher education, and especially in the world of admissions. For students having just one particular school, that is the best school for them that ticks all of their boxes, so on and so forth. Now, it's really good that students do a lot of research on so many different universities. And ultimately, if you do enough research on institutions, you'll be able to find the school that ticks the most boxes for you. But at least in my personal opinion, and based on my professional experience, the number of boxes that are ticked, it doesn't necessarily stay, the end all be all for if that's going to be the actual best scenario for you for your undergrad experience. Oftentimes, the best school for a student is rooted in a lot of the unseen factors of the student experience. Whereas when students are doing research that makes it a dream school, it gets a little bit more bogged down by rankings and family members and people outside of the person who's going to actually be experiencing the university, which is the student. Podcast Host 05:15 Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm really interested to dive into these factors that you say that makes up the boxes. And then the unseen ones that students perhaps don't quite see as the boxes initially, but then obviously contribute to having a great experience. So let's start with is the the boxes that most students are looking to have ticked? First, in your experience as a strategist, what have you seen that most students are looking for when they're going through their research process, Mason 05:39 the very, very first thing is going to be rankings. That's where everyone kind of starts in terms of university research, there'll be with rankings, and a lot of people will rely on their personal experience with who has mentioned that university to them. So a lot of it is just word of mouth, and just the reputation that everyone has of that institution. And they just think that Oh, because I've heard the name Stanford so many times in so many different places. And I know that that's the most competitive school, that must be the best. And they're only going off of a certain small set of criteria for Stanford being the most competitive typically, for the percentages of admitted students of quality of programs overall, and they're going off of that reputation. And in reality, the undergraduate experience might not necessarily be directly related to that overall university rankings, because a lot of factors of these rankings are grounded in factors that don't affect the undergrad experience. So for example, for US News and World Report, one of the criteria for these rankings is how much money do alumni give back to the university once they graduate, that has almost no effect on the undergraduate experience, because there might be some stipulations of what that money can actually be used for whether there's going to be creating a new building that's completely across campus from where students are studying. So things like that influence these rankings quite dramatically. And for me, in my personal experience, I mean, I went to UC Santa Barbara as an undergrad at the time, it was number 30 in the nation for national universities. And now I go to Harvard. And to be honest with you, the actual academic difference in the classroom is not that different. Like, yes, there's a different set of people and a different network that I'm tapping into in terms of the actual people and the network. But in terms of academic rigor and academic caliber, there's really not that much difference. So it's just quite interesting that the Ivy's are really put on a pedestal and for for good reason. But in terms of the actual classroom and academic experience, it's not as different from personal experience. Yeah, I Podcast Host 07:50 mean, the I guess the the major box that a lot of students are getting kicked in that instance is reputational prestige, career advancement, being able to say, Hey, I'm an Ivy League student, where I understand for an MIT student or an Oxford, Cambridge, these types of things. It's like wearing branded clothes, I guess, in a way, it's like wearing a fancy branded label, when in actual fact, you probably get something quite a bit cheaper, that is going to be just as comfortable, but just not fancily branded in a way. So in terms of that, understanding that students are looking for that kind of branded prestige a lot of the time, how do you shake students out of that head and be like, hey, look, there's more to your undergrad experience than just being able to say that you went to an Ivy League school? Mason 08:35 Yeah, that is a great question. And it's more of a process than one conversation. And a lot of it is just starting to debunk this systemic idea of what these schools are like. And so I always have to talk about rankings for starters, and then just saying, well, these are the factors that actually go into the rankings. Does that matter to you? And when students and families start to understand that there's a big difference in rankings and the actual undergrad experience, that's when we can start to untangle some of these conceptions and misconceptions of what life is like at those institutions. So the process starts with talking about the rankings in a very direct kind of way. When it comes to other factors for students, parents will always think of the concept of what's best for their student, but they would just say, what's the best school? I always turn around at that question, well, what are the criteria that make it the best school for you? So some great examples are a student who really really really wants to study film and wants to go to NYU Tisch for their their film program. It's an amazing program, but they need a lot of financial aid. NYU is not going to give them the financial aid that they need, is that the best school for them without then incur 1000s of dollars worth of debt, and then be maybe needing a part time job that may be related to the film industry or just maybe means for them to have something to have a little bit more financial security is that going to be the best experience for you? it very well might be. But there might be another school that might be lower on the rankings that might be out of New York City where the cost of living is way more affordable. And you still get a similar degree that will open up bounds of opportunities, but it's just going to make your life a little bit more comfortable so that you can really succeed given the context. Another question that I always ask students is, do you want to be a big fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big pond? And the the conversation always comes down to? Okay, if you're thinking about going to one of the best institutions in the world? Are you ready to look someone across the table from you across the classroom? And know that they are better than you when you've been the best at everything you've done in school? And would you be comfortable with being challenged to compete with the best and brightest people in the world? And for some people, they're actually like, ooh, I've never actually thought of it that way. Podcast Host 11:06 Yeah, it's pretty crazy man. And I think like a lot of students need to have that that kind of laser beam focus on that reputation. Ivy League's have been shaken up a little bit and understand the reality of what it might actually mean to study there, not just to have the name attached to their CV for the rest of their life, but what it actually means to be at that university for three or four years. In terms of the other factors that make a good undergrad experience. You said UC Santa Barbara, gave me that experience in terms of like classroom, academic, etc. What are some of the ways that students could figure out what these factors might be when there's not something like hard and fast data, like the rankings provide? And I think that's why people gravitate to them, right? Because it's there in front of them, that don't have to speak to any alumni that have to go to an open day. It's like they're whenever they want to look at it. Whereas like, the experiential stuff, that's kind of intangible and quite difficult to understand when you're outside of the University at that point, and I kind of a high school researcher, Mason 12:05 yeah, you ask a great question. The rankings are really easy to look at. I mean, they're formatted in a way that's really easy to decide which one is the best based on some third party's criteria for the rankings, to disentangle that it's all part of the university research process. And getting as many points of contact as you can with the institution that are from the institution themselves. It takes a lot of time and research and especially for international students, it's really hard to make a trip, especially in the current situation that we find ourselves in globally. So a lot of it really comes down to a lot of that self reflection work of well, what actually is important to me, in my experience that I want from university, in truth, a lot of schools in the top 50 are going to have a lot more similarities than dissimilarities in terms of what's available, what the opportunities are. And it's just a matter of how you navigate those particular opportunities within the context of those institutions that will make your experience what it is. So in sort of thinking about the university research process, it goes back to criteria. Well, what is your criteria to make up your dream school? Is it solely based on these rankings? Or is it availability of certain campus clubs and organizations, the opportunities within the city that you might live in thinking about things a little bit more on that holistic level, I think can kind of make students realize that there are heaps of universities in the states that can take a lot of these different boxes. It just is a different perspective on how you look at them. Podcast Host 13:44 Right? So in the case where a student might come to you and say, Hey, Mason, really keen to study in the US my dream school is Stanford or Harvard or whatever. What do you do next? You say, okay, latest submission rounds, just as of today, like Princeton is below 4% admission rate and a lot of the ivy League's are kind of in that ballpark. Stanford and MIT included, it must be a kind of, as you said, like that lengthy conversation. So okay, like, let's not get too hung up on the dream school, let's just say what else is out there. And, you know, trying to help the parents as well as the student, I guess, understand that, like a, you know, a lesser ranked school, one that doesn't have the best age, maybe the better fit, then even the dream school? That must be like a, that's a long conversation. I'm glad you know, that's a process as you say, that's like months of training to help people understand what kind of experience they want to get and how the other universities might be the better solution in some cases. Mason 14:46 Yeah. It's a whole process, that the prestige and the international reputation will always come into conversations when you're choosing the school based on the offers that you have. As a student, that is something that will always come back into the conversation is the rankings. My advice is, forget the rankings, when you're deciding based on your offers, because it then becomes personal choice of what actually matters to you, in your experience. And in terms of the academics, yes, the rankings are there for whatever the rankings are. There's their, whatever criteria factors into them, they're going to be there. But your life as a student is more than just in the classroom. You're in the class, maybe for 15 to 22 hours a week, on average, like there's a lot of more hours in the week that you're going to be outside of the classroom. And so what is your life going to look like? Then what do you want your life to look like outside of the classroom, in terms of thinking about how students can kind of navigate IV day, or navigate, maybe getting a rejection or a waitlist offer, I always tell students that your worth and your value that you contribute to the world is never tied to an admissions result. The reality of the situation is that honestly, for the majority of students who are applying to these top institutions, like you could go there and do well and set yourself up for success. But it's just so competitive, I mean, Harvard 3.4% 3.4%, that's so difficult to get an offer of admission to, even if you really are the best of the best at 3.4%, admitting three people out of 100. Like there's so many good people who are going to go off to do amazing things that did not get an offer. So like trying to think about dream schools, and having all of your hopes and ambition locked into one institution, I think kind of sets you up for a bit of heartbreak down the road, with this concept of a dream school, I would say instead of thinking of it in terms of this is my dream, I think this is a good option that if I were to get in, it would be a good factor to consider, it would be a good option to consider. And then in doing so setting yourself up for multiple options. So applying to a lot of different institutions in the like, reach match and safety categories is a good way to kind of navigate rejection offers. Podcast Host 17:26 Yeah, I was going to say like if it was up to you what lexicon or what vocabulary would you delete from the admissions process. And you know, that idea that dream schools should be seen as options rather than necessarily like a broken dream, if you don't get admitted, right? You don't want to have students being 1718 years old, and emotionally suffering, just because they didn't get into a place that only accepts three out of 100 people like that's crazy, right? You know, to have that much on the line for something that is that hard to achieve? So if you were to, I guess, change the vocabulary, because I think that's such a powerful thing, the language people use around admissions, and you know, dream school often gets thrown around, more so than options are more so than reach. But if there was up to you what other things or what would you change around the language people use throughout the admissions process? Mason 18:18 That's a really good question. To be quite frank, I haven't actually thought about an alternative term for it. And I think part of it is because I don't necessarily think of schools in the terms of being my personal dream. And so I never had like a traditional dream school, when I was applying to undergrad, um, to be quite honest with you, I didn't even like Harvard was never even really on my radar for grad schools. It just kind of happened, given the circumstances. And so even my own perception of this concept of university, I always think of them as options, and using your your options to the best of your ability to maximize your opportunities thereafter. So if I'm thinking of it in terms of in terms of an alternative way to think of a quote unquote, dream school, I would say, to think of these in the framework of just once again, an option. Yeah, they're highly competitive institutions. And it would be a fantastic option to consider. But I wouldn't, I would advise students to start thinking about shying away from making it their their one big hope and dream. I feel like it just sets you up too much in terms of risk for having a really big heartbreak if it doesn't work out. And it's like I said, it's no indicator of the worth and value that you bring to the world. If a school just doesn't have enough seats for you. Like truth be told, you could probably do amazing things. If you got an offer there. It's just the applicant pool grows so dramatically, but the seat numbers stay the same. More or less. Podcast Host 19:59 Yeah. Well, Mason, do you have any other final advice for students who, I guess are looking forward to next admissions round the admissions round? Obviously, this being IV day today, for those people who don't know, by the way, IV day is the day that Ivy League acceptances come out, or like the regular decision acceptances coming out. So if you hear that being thrown around, and you from different parts of the world not familiar with the term, that's generally what it means. But what would you be advising for students who are perhaps, you know, 1516, listening to the podcast, and having had their heart set on the IVs, and going forward over the next six to 12 to 24 months, particularly in conversations with people like their classmates and their parents, because oftentimes, you know, as much as we want, might want to make it, that mindset of an option. Oftentimes, it's the pressure that other people put on you. And the importance that other people put on an acceptance to these places, that kind of, you know, makes it hard to just kind of calmly look at the admissions email when it comes through. Right. So yeah, what would be your advice for students 1516 years old, looking ahead to their future admissions? Mason 21:07 Yeah, that's a really good question. I would say it's okay to have a dream school to have a school that ticks all the boxes, but also know that another school will tick the same number of boxes or a different number of boxes, and that there's always options. There's always options. And if that truly is your dream school? What is the criteria that makes it the dream school? Is it the rankings? Or is it that you really want to be on that campus, you think that the city itself is beautiful, and you want to live there? Well, there's other options, go live there for a summer, if you don't go to that particular school, go go and stay there, or try to see if you can do a summer course there. You can always go there for grad school or PhD, there's so many different options to kind of think about what it is that you want, and what makes your criteria and just know that there's a bunch of different institutions that will satisfy a lot of that criteria, whatever it is, yeah, I'm within my my grad program, we talk a lot about the rankings and how they're, they're a bit misleading in a lot of senses. And so it's okay to look at them, but just know that there's way more to the story and way more to what your experience is going to be like at that institution, if you do get admitted, that will be completely and totally outside of the criteria that make up that ranking. Podcast Host 22:28 Yeah, I would also throw in there that and please correct me if I'm wrong here, because I often AM. But for students to question the criteria that they're using, and to actually try and figure out is this a really flimsy reason to go to university because I think some students say, Oh, you know, I want to go to Stanford because Google was founded there. And like, it's got not much to do with you, I would have thought or people you know, Elon Musk, or you went to UPN, or you know, Wharton School, and they're like, Ah, you know, Elon Musk is my hero, therefore, I must go to Wharton School up in flames flimsy reason. Just because he went there, like doesn't mean you have to just because Google was founded, they I think a lot of people use these historical references in a way to say, Well, my heroes went there, therefore, I must follow in their footsteps. And and really, when it comes down to when you analyze the psychology of that reasoning, you know, that is fairly flimsy ground that they're using to kind of decide the next three to four years of their life, right? Mason 23:27 Yeah, when I was an admissions officer, and I would give those admissions office presentations, and would have a bunch of colleagues who would do that themselves. But for their various institutions, we would always joke that we were basically just really good salespeople, because that's, that's what all of that is, like, all the things that you just mentioned, our sales and marketing of the institution to feed into, like the reputation that they have both domestically and internationally. And so it's really hard to like disentangle all of those things. Because the truth is, there are many amazing alumni who have done amazing things from every institution out there. That's just kind of the nature of universities. And so just going back to like the whole dream school concept, is it really your dream to be the next Elon Musk? It's not very Ilan musk to follow somebody else's path. Yep. So if you're really going to be Ilan musk say, Hey, you know what, I'm actually going to go to this other school and do my amazing things here and pave your own way. But it's okay to follow somebody else's footsteps. That's fine. But it goes back to what's your criteria? Podcast Host 24:37 Yeah, yeah. And making sure that criteria is probably a good way to inform the next three to four years of your life rather than like, what is otherwise pretty shaky ground. But I think it's such a relevant topic and such a great day to chat about this kind of stuff. Obviously IV Day is a crazy day for a lot of students and one filled with so much excitement and joy and On the flip side, it can be filled with so much disappointment and self reflect But I think it's a really timely episode particularly for both sides of those students really like for the students who get into Ivy's. Congratulations, we, you know, support you and celebrate you. But at the same time, don't get complacent. It's going to be a tough four years and it doesn't mean that you're set for the rest of your life. And conversely, if you didn't get that offer, don't be heartbroken. don't see it as a broken dream see it as an opportunity to swim with perhaps slightly different fish in a slightly different pond. Right. Mason 25:28 100% supportive on that one. Yeah, that's a really good way to just sum up everything we chatted about. I love it. Podcast Host 25:35 I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much Mason, I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

#41 How Sport Psychology Can Help Students Focus, Stay Motivated and Smash Exams

🗓 APR 3, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:16 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in today's episode, I chat with 16 year old founder and host of Mind Design Sports, Brandon Shintani. Brandon's love of sports psychology has had profound impacts both on and off the court. We chat about what students can learn in sports psychology, starting a podcast and getting a head start on a career during high school. Let's chat with Brandon Shintani. Hey, Brandon, welcome to the top of the class podcast. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and perhaps a little bit about what we'll be chatting about today? Brandon 00:52 Thanks, Alex, for having me on. Excited to chat with you. And yeah, just a little bit myself. I go to a public school in New Jersey, and I'm a big sports fan, especially basketball, I like to watch it. I like to play it and just a pretty active person in the sports world. And yeah, I guess today we're going to talk about Mind Design Sports, which is a sports psychology organization that I created. And I love to share with the audience and try to give some tips and advice and insights on how your listeners can use that to their advantage and make your life better whether they're an athlete or really just a student in general. Podcast Host 01:25 Yeah. Awesome. That says really cool. So Mind Design Sports is the concept. How long has that been a part of your life for? Brandon 01:34 Yeah, so we launched in September 2020. And so right after the summer, and right at the start of the school year, and I was just working on the website in the summer and trying to get it off, but I really launched it in September. Podcast Host 01:47 Okay. And when you say Wait, is that just you? And you just say collectively way? Or have you got some people helping you out as well. Brandon 01:54 It was just me. And I just kind of had like my mom and my dad look over it and just kind of give me some feedback. But yeah, I kind of built the website myself. Yeah. Podcast Host 02:02 Okay. And how did you go about building the website? Because honestly, when I was trying to build a website, myself, I really didn't know what I was doing. So what was your kind of background in building a website? And how many challenges did you find along the way with that? Brandon 02:15 Yeah, so I actually didn't code the website actually used a website called Squarespace. And I'm sure a lot of people have heard of that. Yep. And yeah, you basically go on Squarespace. You buy a domain, and then it's pretty intuitive. And it's pretty friendly. So I kind of just played around with it. See the design? And yeah, I just tried to make it very absorbable. And in a fashion that people can read and absorb easily. Podcast Host 02:39 Yeah, well, obviously, like, building an effective website is an important part of anyone's business these days. And I'm going to guess you're quite a lot on socials as well. How do you try and get the word out there for Mind Design Sports? What are some of your main channels that you're using? Brandon 02:54 Yeah, so Mind Design Sports is on YouTube. And we have our podcasts all on probably every platform, because we use anchor and they just distributed to everywhere. And also, we have an Instagram and Twitter. So we create like infographs on sports psychology and tips specifically, and we're trying to just increase our following base and increase our word about it and just try to get monetized sports as something that all athletes should know about something like if you ask any athlete probably know about Nike, or those big brands. And that's just our big goal right now on trying to get because I think it's an important message to learn about sports psychology. And yeah... Podcast Host 03:33 Yeah. All right, awesome. We'll give our listeners a bit of a background as to what exactly sports psychology is, because I know, people will probably heard the term before and probably don't know what role it might play in an athlete's performance on the field or on the track when they're doing training or when they're kind of in the offseason plays like a lot of different roles in an athlete's life. But what are your thoughts on sport psychology? Brandon 03:58 So psychology is the science and study of human behavior and the thoughts behind it. And I'm sure a lot of people know that. But psychology is different realms and subfields. And one of those would be sports psychology. So sports psychologists, coaches, trainers, they try to use sport psychology tactics. So for example, maybe breathing techniques or visualization or self talk to up an athlete's performance, mentally, so it's not really about, oh, what food should I be eating to get more muscular? Or how many reps should I be getting to get more muscular, it's more of the mental side of things and how increasing your mental game will translate to better results on the field or on the court. So that's just a little bit about sports psychology. Podcast Host 04:42 So how does sports psychology kind of play out in basketball? And what are some of the players or who are some of the players that kind of epitomize what it means to have either a very weak psychology like they'd kind of blow up after a second or very strong psychology people who are like really mentally focused every game? Brandon 05:00 Basketball is pretty tough. There's only five people on the court. So you got to fight for your spot, and you need to maximize the chances of you being on the court. So sports psychologists will tell basketball athletes that if you're not very good, or you don't feel confident, they'll try to boost that first. And they'll try to work on skills on the court, and also off the court. So mentally, so for psychologists can also help a basketball athlete get a better relationship with your teammates, and that will translate on the core because if you have more camaraderie with your teammates, you're going to see that there's gonna be better communication, you're gonna know better chemistry, and that's going to translate. So I think that'd be the main difference between an individual sport like golf versus a team sport like basketball. Yeah. And a lot of athletes in basketball are starting to know about sport psychology. A lot of NBA players, they have podcasts, and they talk about mental side of things. And they talk about destigmatizing mental health. So I think one big example that everyone knows about would be Michael Jordan. So and Kobe Bryant, so they worked with a pretty well known sports psychologist called Tim Grover, and he's really well known. He has a bunch of books on sport psychology, and he talks about how to really lock in, stay focused, and all that good sports psychology stuff. And I'm not really sure who would be a person that has a weak mental side, because I think everyone's starting to get the gist of it and really get into the field. But yes, what psychology is growing? So I think 20 years, maybe I think a lot of people will just know about sports psychology and understand what that is. Podcast Host 06:31 Yeah, well, I think there is one player that comes to mind for me a little bit. Who is the guy when LeBron James was playing for the Cavs? And he had that teammate who ran the other way, accidentally, and he was like, Why? Brandon 06:46 Oh JR Smith. Podcast Host 06:47 Yeah, yeah. JR Smith right. So he's here, I guess, has never come across as the most mentally switched on. And he has moments of brilliance, but also moments of like, What the hell are they doing? And I guess for the fans sitting there at home, you know, those moments where it's super confusing, where, you know, they're super talented player, but they're also doing things where you like, What the hell are they doing? Most of the time, that moment, could be attributed to sports psychology, right? They're just probably not quite ready for the moment mentally, and do something totally inexplicably crazy at the time, like running in the opposite direction that Jr. Smith did. Brandon 07:26 Yeah, I want to talk about that. Actually, that was a great point. So JR Smith, He's a great player. He's in an NBA, he'd probably school any high school athlete, any D1 college athlete. So it was a big game, it was in the playoffs? I think it was like on the line. Like one point off, it was for the game winner. But I feel like if JR Smith could have been focused more maybe or if he was more concentrated in the game, he wouldn't have ran other way. Like that's just like something, you know, a first grade first grader would do like you wouldn't think an NBA player would run the wrong way. So I feel like if you really enhance your mind, and you're in the game, you're president, that would have not happened? I think so. Podcast Host 08:04 Yeah, it would have been a very different outcome. Apparently, he said that later, he didn't know what the score was. So he's running the other way. Because he wasn't sure what the score was, we thought that they were up by more or something like that. He thought the score was different effectively. But it really does go to show like sports psychology and just knowing where you're at in any particular situation, and how to focus in that situation can be critical. And I guess like from LeBron James inside and all the other Cavs teammates, right? Like, you know, when you've got that moment where you're so frustrated at a teammate, yet, you know, after a minute of a timeout, you've got to return and come back and have full trust in that teammate again, who just completely blew it. Right. And so that must be very hard as well, to kind of like let go of the anger and the tension and the frustration and just go back to what is my role? How can I do the best thing possible for the team? And how can I support my teammates to do their best as well? Brandon 08:59 Yeah, 100%, especially with team sports, like, just one athlete can really disrupt the whole team and the performance and their mentality. So I'm sure it disrupted LeBron. And it's really on him as well on how he's going to respond as the leader of the team to chair Smith. Is he going to pick him back up? Is he gonna yell at him and get pissed, but I'm sure LeBron handled it well, because he's been an NBA has some wisdom, and he knows how to be a leader. He's been a championship. Oh, my God plenty of time. So yes, yeah. Podcast Host 09:28 Yeah. Well, it's interesting to look at LeBron James, because I think he has a reputation for being super, super professional. You know, he's in 37 hours like that he's in He's like, 17th season or more. And yeah, like he just keeps on performing at a higher and higher level because of his preparation because of his mental toughness. So how can sport psychology and everything that you've learned from that translate to students in the classroom going into an exam, doing things that every other student is doing from day to day Like, how do the lessons from sports psychology can translate into normal life? Basically? Brandon 10:04 Yeah, 100%. Personally, sports psychology has helped me in other ways. So, for example, sports psychology will help athletes with super stressful situations, like we said, and how to deal with them how to stay composed how to stay focused, how not be too tense. And that can translate to maybe a big band performance, a big test ICT and you're super anxious or you're tired. And one big sports psychology technique on how to combat this would be breathing techniques. And I'm sure you've known about that. And a lot of people know about breathing. There's many breathing techniques out there. So box breathing is one of them that I like, and basically, you breathe in for four seconds, hold for four seconds, and then breathe out for four seconds and hold for four seconds. So it like creates a box, because it's 444. And it really just relaxes you. It calms your nerves, and right before tests. If you do that, even during the test, it'll really help you stay focused and in the present. Podcast Host 11:03 Yeah, and then you've Of course, you've got things like visualization, which I know is a big part of sport. So like, if you're a student who's about to sit in exam, of course, it's a bit hard to visualize, I would have thought because you don't really know what questions are going to come up. But you might visualize yourself going in there calm and compose, sitting down, opening up the paper, doing all these bits and pieces, right? So what would you advise students to do for the visualization side of things, which I know is a big part of sports psychology, Brandon 11:32 you don't have to know the questions to visualize. So for visualization, you want to use your five senses, and you almost want to create a movie in your brain. So you're almost playing a movie before you go into the test center, for example. So you would walk into the test room, you try to envision the smell and try to smell what the room is like maybe if it's on your high school, you already know the smell. So you're almost primed to be ready. And focused. When you get into the test room, you want to see what's around you. Is it a big cafeteria? Is it a small desks. And by using all five senses, you're gonna be ready, you're gonna be you're gonna know what's coming, you're gonna be better prepared for it. And even if you don't know the questions to the test, there's a lot of stuff you can visualize. And that's basically what visualization is just envisioning it and playing the picture in your head. Podcast Host 12:19 Yeah, well, I know what happens when the opposite of that happens. Like when you are not mentally prepared. I'll give you an example. From my days as a school student, I had my cousin's wedding on the same day as I had an exam. And I had to go to Sydney for the wedding. And I was based in Melbourne. So all I could think about really, for the whole duration of the exam, was getting in a taxi and flying to Sydney. And I like completely bombed in the exam, I was a, you know, I felt pretty strong in the subject area. But come the exam day, I just couldn't think about sitting down visualizing the exam, taking my time and doing all the right things. All I could think about was stressing about getting the plane to Sydney. So it was a real, like, complete non good example for, I guess, anything to do with psychology. But you're right, like, going through the steps, just giving yourself the time and space to visualize it and make sure that you're present in that moment is super important. But yes, sports psychology is a very interesting field. And it's interesting that from a young age, you're able to see that that is what you want your career path to be. And it can be a bit of a challenge for students to figure that out when there's not too many options in terms of work experience, or you can't really get an insight into the life of a psychologist because of patient doctor confidentiality. So how have you been able to gain that experience know that sports psychology or psychology in general is for you? Brandon 13:47 Yeah. So I'll just kind of take you back into my own sports, because that kind of relates to the question. So basically, I started this organization, as I said, like last year, and in that summer, like right before I started it, I actually took an AP psychology course over the summer. And I learned about all the subfields of psychology and I saw sports psychology. It was a big 500 page textbook, but one little paragraph about sports psychology. I was like, I was intrigued by it. I read the paragraph a couple times. And I was pretty interested that my two favorite fields were combined. And I kind of just did more research on it. I was the small paragraph. They didn't really give me much info. It's pretty vague. And I want to learn more. So I looked at sports psychology, probably went through the first four Google pages, look through TED Talks, videos, navy seals are talking about sports psychology, and that's how I really got immersed to it first. And then I started reading some blogs to test my knowledge. And that's kind of how I got that experience and knowledge from sports psychology. And yeah, I agree. There's not really a place where you can go learn it until like you're in college until there's like a really specialized class. It's just usually general psychology in high school, and they don't really teach you about it. So that's why I think also if you if you're interested in sports, just To check out my Zen sports and see sports psychology is right for you if you're interested in it. Podcast Host 15:04 Yeah, so it's been a bit of a journey for you to kind of feel it that it was the right path for you. Is there any part from Tim Grover, who you mentioned, is there any people that you follow or like you kind of are fans of as a result of their work in sports psychology or people who like, you know, admire in the field, Brandon 15:23 so I follow a lot of sports psychology, podcasts, read some books. And I actually like Tim Grover, just going back to him, he wrote a book called relentless, and he talks about how he trains with Kobe Bryant and a bunch of accomplished athletes. And he talks about 13 things that make a person relentless. And a few examples of of around this person would be that they trust very few people and those they trust, they better never let you down. And being relentless means to trust yourself the most, and you have confidence in yourself. So that was one of the examples that I liked from him and his book. And he also said that these relentless athletes, they don't celebrate their achievements, because they always want more, they're always striving for something else. They're always pushing for a new goal. And another book that I liked was mind gym, by Gary Mac. And he explains why the performance of the top athletes is a combination of their physical and mental abilities. And the book shows you how you can cultivate the mindset of a top performer yourself. So I like three lessons that he wrote about in his book. So he said, smart goals, I'm sure a lot of people have talked to heard of smart goals, specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and time bound. You want to create those goals. And that relates to sports as well. So if you want to make a become a better three point shooter, you want to make a SMART goal for yourself. And another lesson, he said was cultivate willpower with the seven C's of mental toughness, which would be competitiveness, courage, confidence, control, composure, consistency, and commitment. And the last lesson I loved was make love learning and labor, the three pillars of real life to succeed. And they're pretty simple. And they mean a lot, though, if you really think about it deeply. And you really understand what he's trying to say. I just thought it was pretty powerful and the way he wrote it, and I thought that was my biggest takeaway from those two books. Podcast Host 17:09 Has this changed your life in the way you approach it? Because you've been learning about these principles of sport psychology? Brandon 17:17 As a great question, first of all, changed my life, like how I function. So I've learned about these techniques and actually try to put them into play. So for example, before I even learned about sports, in college, I didn't really journal, I didn't have a gratitude journal and understand why that was important. I just thought was a waste of time to just write down stuff that I wouldn't really look back on. But yes, sports psychology has taught me a lot. So for example, the journal has taught me what I like, what are my goals? what triggers me? And what how do I try to stay away from it? So sports psychology has taught me who I am and who I want to be in the future. And sports or college has a lot of quotes and motivational quotes. And I just like to keep a stash of quotes that I like, and that really resonate with me. So I think those quotes kind of drive my lifestyle in a way. Podcast Host 18:08 Yeah, can't read all this material and not have at least some changes to your life. While you're doing the gratitude journal. You know what, I have also gone through the exact same thing of like, tried it, done it a couple of times. I mean, like, what's the point? So, yeah, maybe I should get into really understanding deeply what the impact of it is. And then perhaps I'll probably continue doing it. Does that have been, I guess, the experience for you? Sometimes we like, oh, I've heard about it. But I don't really know what the benefit is. And then you read and then you learn and then you like, Oh, now I know. And I understand it a bit more. Brandon 18:41 It's really a process, you're not the first time you write in a journal, the first time you meditate, there's going to be zero benefits, I'm almost guaranteeing you that but you got to just stick with it. Wait for a month, maybe wait for a couple months. And you're just going to realize naturally that benefits are coming, maybe you're getting more calm, maybe you're getting more clarity. And if you just stick with it, try to make it a habit. And once you make it a habit, it doesn't feel like a time hassle. You just it's kind of just like brushing your teeth every day. You just do it every day, and you just get it out the way. But it's good for you, right? Like you brush your teeth, you keep your teeth clean, keep your body clean. So I just kind of put it in that way that analogy. Podcast Host 19:19 Yeah. Well, it's interesting that so many elements actually now I'm thinking about how similar in many respects the student life is to the life of an athlete in many ways, because school is a competitive environment, whether you like it or not like it is a competitive environment in many ways. It does require teamwork and a lot of ways that you're working with other students who are working with your teachers, you've got your mentors, your coaches or teachers wherever you want to put it. And so there's a lot of different lessons that can really come from sports psychology that can be very easily applied to the student life. Has there been anything that has particularly helped you to be like a better quote unquote, or more academic student, you know, in terms of the day discipline and the motivation to study actually one thing that I like, if I was to, you know, kind of look at motivation in particular, which I think is an interesting concept, and there's something I'd be interested to get your thoughts on. But I've heard that, you know, people shouldn't rely on motivation too much that motivation is like a bit of a myth, really. And you shouldn't ask yourself, Am I motivated to do this particular task? It should be like, Am I healthy? Do I have time? Just do it? Like, still, you know, like the Nike, I guess, slogan there, it is really just that you're taking out that motivational question and just doing it, that might be a lesson that a lot of athletes have to learn to make sure that they are going to training all the time that they are showing up early for swimming, training, whatever it might be, is that kind of lesson there applicable to the student life? Brandon 20:51 Yeah, I like to bring that up, because I'll actually wanted to address it. So everyone says that you should be motivated to play sports. And that's true. If you have motivation, that's actually really good, because you're gonna want to strive more just like maybe Kobe Bryant, he's always motivated, you wanted to be at the top, always constantly practiced, and he never got the court. And sometimes, especially at the high school age and college age, you're just not going to feel like you want to practice, you just want to sit on the bed, watching Netflix and just not get on the court and practice. And, yeah, that's true, you should just if you have time, and you have energy, and you're not sick, or present a big, traumatic moment, for example, that happened in your life, practice, because if you really want to be up there, you're gonna have to outwork everyone else. And if someone else's motivation level is higher than yours, they're gonna outwork you, and the bar is just gonna keep getting higher and higher. So you have to really push yourself. So it's kind of like half and half motivation is important. But you shouldn't solely rely on it. Definitely not. And yeah, if you have that intrinsic motivation of really wanting to be get at the top plant, the top level, that's a bonus. So that would be my biggest advice for that. Podcast Host 21:57 Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting, when you look at that court analogy, a basketball analogy, in that a lot of students can use that practice like that willpower just to get out and go and use that in other areas of life, like, there may never be a top basketball up. But even just having that willpower to get up and go, is going to be applied to other areas of your life. Yeah, 100%. Brandon 22:23 And just one more thing I know, you asked the question before, like, how is sports translated to my life and how it can help a student, like, generally, and I try to answer that real quick. So with my time in sports, I definitely know about sports psychology and those mental resources. So whenever I had a bad game, or I didn't feel well, or I was anxious, I didn't really know how to like bounce back from I didn't have anything, I just went on to the next, I just hope for the best and tried to trust my skills, but it was difficult. So it kind of naturally made me have a growth mindset. And I'm sure a lot of people have heard of that term. But basically, it's just that you're always looking to improve, and you know that you're just not at a fixed point, you can always better yourself by targeting your mistakes and working towards that. So I kind of had to do that through sports. Because if I didn't, I wouldn't be getting time on the court. Because I'll just, as you get older, the competition gets harder and harder. So naturally, that was instilled in me. And that growth mindset, also translated to school. So if I got a bad math test score, maybe I would see why I got that wrong, and how I could improve it what I have to do more practice problems, was it a stress thing? Or was it a content matter? So when you really try to understand what the root of the problem is, I think that's the most important thing and then just attack that you just focus on it. set some time aside, and really strive to be better. Podcast Host 23:43 Absolutely. Well, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk a bit more about your podcast. Obviously, it's an interest of mine as a fellow podcaster. Why did you decide to launch a podcast alongside a website and Instagram or Twitter sounded like you had a lot of other things going on? I mean, you could have just turned it into a blog and wrote some articles there. Or, you know, as a lot of people tend to do these days, just, you know, create content on Instagram day after day after day. What was the thinking behind creating a podcast? And how's that journey been for you? Brandon 24:13 Yeah, definitely. So as you said, we have blogs and social media and podcast. So our target audience is for younger student athletes. So that could be high school athletes and down middle school, elementary school. And I know personally, like when I was younger, and I know a lot of my friends didn't want to read blogs, they're like, oh, it takes too long as too much mental power. But a podcast is just, you listen to it. When you're running outside and you're exercising, just put on your headphones and you just listen, press play, and you don't touch it and you just absorb the information. It's very easy to get the information and get out of there instead of having to like read, find the most important points. So that was kind of my thinking. And also the podcast route is complementing my blogs. And I have a bunch of writers writing my blog and they address different topics and we try to have a guest speaker on that topic. to shed more light on that topic and maybe give more expert advice, and yeah, so those two kind of go hand in hand, and we just try to really delve deep into it and provide good content. Podcast Host 25:12 What are some of the challenges in launching a podcast? And when you guys it's like finding a guest publishing on a regular basis, the editing side, I don't particularly enjoy the editing side, I'm chatting with guests. But what are some of the the issues and challenges that you face that other students might face if they would start a podcast? Brandon 25:30 First of all, for me, starting the podcast was intimidating, oh, my God, when I was talking to my first guest, I just was nervous. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know how to conduct the podcast. But I've learned and I'm sure have you learned as well that you got to just go with the flow be conversational like, and you just kind of get the gist of it when you just keep doing it over and over. So that was my first major problem. And yeah, also finding guests was a big time hassle. And you need to find a guest that has good advice, is qualified, has time and is willing to share their knowledge. So that's a lot that goes into it, then you have to coordinate the time as well, finding good time. And it's just really a lot of logistical stuff. And also, as you said, the editing stuff I have gratefully, I have some podcast editors on my team. And they'd actually like to edit podcast, I'm not a big fan of that. So I just hand it off to them. And they actually enjoy that. So it's pretty cool. And we kind of have like a little operation going. And I think that's just the most efficient way. So I think anybody who wants to start podcasts out there, it's just, I actually just listen to krimson podcast, my podcast and just get a gist of it, how it runs and kind of just model off it. And that's what kind of added Podcast Host 26:41 Yeah, we'll be you know, obviously, we're doing the interview format, I think you're doing Yeah, for my design, sports, and obviously top of the classes, interview format podcast. But really like if you know, if you've got a mate, for instance, who's really passionate about sport, and you want to discuss examples of really good sports psychology, you've got something that you can do without having to find guests all the time, which can be a real challenge. And I'm going to guess for your side of things like, you can find just sports psychologists to come on to the show, or you can find athletes and how they interact with sport psychology or coaches and how they use sport psychology as part of their athletes training programs. And like what part part it plays, etc. So there's a lot of other people that play a role in sport. And they all have something in common, which is an interest in sports psychology, always a good idea to start a podcast, I think it's a great way to kind of widen your networks and definitely deepen your knowledge in the area as well, right? Like you're asking these amazing people, all these amazing questions. And you're getting all this information as well as a student who is aiming to study sports psychology in university, right? Brandon 27:49 Oh, yeah. I think sports psychology up there, I think I want to do something in psychology is probably like sports psychology, forensic psychology, cognitive psychology. But yeah, I'm definitely aiming towards that sports side, but definitely in the psychology realm. Podcast Host 28:02 Yeah. Yeah. somewhere about that. And is there any particular university that you have in mind? Brandon 28:07 Oh, I'm not sure yet. Because I'm a sophomore. And I'm just, I'm trying to live in the present. And just really, as you said, like, enjoy High School, and really grow minds on sports. And I'm just hoping that will take me to a good university somewhere. Podcast Host 28:22 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Brandon, if there's any place where people can check out your podcast, mind design sports, we'll put the link in the show notes. Is there any other way that students can get in contact with you? Brandon 28:33 Yeah, so if you just go to our website, they'll have all the links there. So Instagram, Twitter, and we also have a YouTube where we just post a podcast as well. And we also plan to do some YouTube videos in the future. So stay tuned for that. And me personally, I have a LinkedIn and you can search up my name. Podcast Host 28:49 Well, I'm sure that a great place to start is mine design sports, so we'll leave those link in the in the shownotes. Brandon it's been fantastic having you on and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Brandon 28:58 Alex, thanks so much for having me on. It was a blast. Podcast Host 29:00 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#9 College Tips - The Founders Trend and Why it Won't Always Get You to Top Unis

🗓 MAR 31, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to college tips. On today's episode, I chat with the managing director of crimson education USA and Canada. Anjali Bhatia, a graduate of Duke University and Wharton MBA program until he reflects on recent admissions history and challenges the belief that you now need to start an organization to get into a top university. Let's chat with Anjali. Hi, Anjali. Welcome to College Tips. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Anjali 00:47 Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. Sure. So my name is Anjali. I grew up in northern New Jersey right outside of New York City. And in high school, I actually became very passionate around this concept of social entrepreneurship for high school students. So I ended up starting a nonprofit initiative that was designed around helping high schoolers learn the right skills of social entrepreneurship, and make the impact in the causes they cared about. So this is going to date me but this was in the early 2000s. So we actually made our program on DVDs. There's a DVD based lesson plan, and we were selling it to high schools around the country. And it was a really great experience. And that led me to Duke University where I was a Robertson scholar scholarship given for leadership. And I stayed very passionate about education. So when I graduated, I worked in strategy consulting for Accenture's education practice, mostly worked with the US Department of Education in DC. So it was an amazing experience. And then, after a few years, went back for my MBA at Wharton, and when I graduated, I wanted to find a company that was exciting and education that was really using technology and was data driven. That was specifically helping high schoolers with leadership. So I came across Crimson, and I've been here ever since. And my role I oversee Crimson for the US and Canada. Podcast Host 02:22 Awesome. Yeah. Well, it's such a journey. And I know a bit about your story, of course, as being your colleague for the last number of years. But it's awesome to kind of hear it laid out that way. And I didn't know you didn't MBA at Wharton. That's pretty cool, too. Which one do you think was more formative in terms of the person you are today? 02:39 Oh, absolutely. I'd say Duke. I think that's a function of undergrad really being your first love. You know, you, you build that connection, it's your first time away from home. I absolutely loved Wharton too. And I think having worked prior to doing my MBA, it was so rich, being able to connect what I was learning to my experiences. So I think both were phenomenal. But I'm a huge Blue Devil fan. And yeah, I wear Duke gear all the time. Podcast Host 03:08 Nice, nice. Stay true to the Blue Devil. Fair enough. Now, what are we talking about today, what's near and dear to your heart that you'd like to share with students. Anjali 03:17 So I noticed the last really 10 years, high schoolers are very focused on this idea that you need to start a club or a nonprofit, or some sort of initiative to get into a top school. And you know, as someone who did start a nonprofit in high school, and now I support a lot of our Crimson students in their passion projects throughout high school. I actually have a lot of thoughts on this. And I, I don't think it's necessary for you to start your own organization. So yeah, I'd love to chat a little bit about that. Podcast Host 03:50 I think that's a super relevant topic. And certainly something that I come across a lot because obviously hosting the podcast as well chatting to a lot of founders, co founders, students who have intentions to be founders, co founders, etc, of different initiatives. And it does certainly give the impression that you need to be a founder of these amazing clouds, because that's often the stories that I think students hearing when they look at, you know, students who get into all eight IVs, or students who went from their school across to the Ivy League, or to Stanford or MIT or whatnot. So where do you think that trend started to originate? And is it so far gone now that like, it's even in the minds of admission officers? Anjali 04:32 Yeah, that's a great question. So let's go a little bit into admissions history. So yeah, I think prior to the 80s, there was this idea that you had to be a renaissance man or woman, but you had to be that varsity athlete plus editor of the newspaper Plus, you know, having some sort of music, you know, being taught in the piano and having all of those made you well rounded. And then I feel like when we get into the 90s, what we saw was a lot of pursuit towards being extraordinary in fewer things. So this term well lopsided. So you start to see that people were not needing to be completely well rounded. But instead, they did really well in a few things. And that became interesting. But then it kept pushing, right. So then it became, Oh, you didn't just do well, and things, you created your own club. And now it's really escalated to this idea of having created an organization, it's just getting more competitive than ever, and you want to keep upping the bar in terms of what you've done. Now, you had this question, you know, like our admissions officers just looking for that. And I think it's actually gone the other way, where admissions officers are becoming jaded, they're like, Okay, this kid has started yet another club. But what have they really done? And I think now we're at this point in the 2020s, where they don't care if you have that term founder anymore, because everyone does. Instead they're looking solely at impact. You know, how much did you actually seem to have cared about this? When did you started? How many years of commitment did you have? And what was the actual amount of work you did? And how did that result in helping others, or you know, the amount of revenue or amount of app downloads. So what we're seeing is those kids that you hear about that are getting into all of the Ivy's and getting all the scholarships, the initiatives they started were extraordinary, you know, they often had international impact, they have really high numbers. You know, apps have 40,000 plus downloads. And that's not something that people are just doing and have their junior year, right. It's something built over time. But what I have actually seen being really effective. And maybe this doesn't get as much of that press and coverage is people who take this like concept of entrepreneurship, but they also build it within existing organizations. So perhaps they volunteer with an existing nonprofit, instead of starting their own dealing with all the paperwork and trying to recreate the wheel. They'll go into that nonprofit and start something new for that nonprofit, and really build and scale and initiative that way. So it's creating less waste. And it's really creating a much more sustainable model of helping versus a club that only stays around for two years and has 20 members. Podcast Host 07:29 Yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting to kind of understand for students that being a founder may actually end up backfiring for your application, because it looks as if it's a box that now needs to be ticked, I need to be a founder of an organization. Is there any time where you've seen that in a student that's come to you and said, Hey, Angela, like, I've got a great application? What do you mean, look, I'm the founder of an organization and you're like, I can kind of see that that's not really achieving what you think you might be achieving through the admissions process? Anjali 08:00 Oh, absolutely. And I find that students kind of repeatedly default to working on the exact same ideas. So I think this is like, understandable. Because you're all in high school, you've had very similar experiences. But I've seen a lot of nonprofits focused on STEM education, for example. So you go to perhaps underserved areas, and you try to teach STEM concepts. And that itself is a great thing to do we need more STEM education in a lot of communities. But do you need to create a whole separate nonprofit for it? Or can you do it within an existing organization? You know, what are ways for you to really accelerate things that don't don't mean that you have to kind of, again, create everything from scratch? Podcast Host 08:46 Yeah, because in reality, you could probably have more impact in an existing organization and doing a lot there and kind of having that intrapreneurship, you know, kind of innovating within the existing organization, then you would having to fluff around starting a new one, all by yourself with a couple of friends. And, you know, you might have half the impact that you would if you were using the existing organization, is that something that you've seen as well, where you're like, why didn't you just join this organization? Why do you feel like you needed to start your own? Anjali 09:14 Absolutely. And I think it it takes a little bit of acceptance that you won't have that founder title, but understanding how you can accelerate and within an existing institution to you have a lot more resources guidance. And again, you have that default that they can continue a program even after you leave. So creating initiatives with the intention of sustainability after you're gone means that it's not really just about you. It's much more about the mission to and I think that's very impressive to admissions officers. Podcast Host 09:48 Yeah. Well, I'm interested in how students can recreate that founder type of leadership. I mean, like it does show leadership I guess, in some respects to show initiative in some respects as well. So how students can show that in other extracurriculars as well, because I think that's probably the reason why perhaps they're trying to gravitate towards that founder leadership role, because they're like, this is what it shows admissions officers, it shows that I've got initiative and leadership, when in actual fact, I probably could use those qualities or show those qualities and a lot of other different ways. So what are some of those other different ways that they could show those founder like qualities? Anjali 10:25 Yeah, I would say the first thing I would really encourage students is to look up the concept of design thinking, you know, books that are very famous, like the lean startup, give you a lot of those tools of how you can actually identify problems that exist versus what you perceive exist. So let's say you find that you're really passionate about homelessness, rather than just saying like, Okay, I'm going to start an initiative for the homeless, spend that time volunteering at a homeless shelter, you know, volunteer with a couple of different organizations and see what they're doing. Once you actually are able to understand what they're going through their limitations, you'll notice more problems that are designed to really help your target audience. So by volunteering in the shelter, for example, you can have communication with people who are homeless, you can understand what they're going through. And that's where your best ideas are going to come. And I think at that point, you can very eloquently point out to the nonprofit, you're volunteering with a new idea of something they can try. And by saying you'll take ownership of that, they're going to be quite excited, right? Like people want high schoolers to take initiative, and they're always looking for more help. So I think it's a matter of being able to accurately convey what you plan to do and how you'll do it. And then people are very eager to have people get involved, Podcast Host 11:47 right. And that's a good tip. Anjali 11:48 But if you go to an institution, and they seem very uninterested to have a high school, or help, that's when you can go and kind of start something from scratch, that's when you can try and bypass and become that founder. And you have that reason of why you needed to do that. versus just kind of again, going for that title. Podcast Host 12:06 Yeah, fair enough. Well, for students who are very keen on being a founder and want to have that experience and want to feel like that is part of their identity. What are some of your recommendations for students who say, I hear you, I don't need to be a founder necessarily, but I really want to I really want to stand out not in the application necessarily, but just back that is central to who I am. And I'm really passionate about teaching stem in in underprivileged communities, for instance, whatever it might be, what advice would you give to them to make sure that even among all the students who are putting found on their application that they actually do stand out as a founder, Anjali 12:44 I think it all comes back to measuring impact. So from the beginning, you don't want your accolade to have been starting this organization, you want to have really clear metrics of what you're hoping to achieve. And think about how you can make it scalable. So let's say you design 10 lesson plans around stem and you deliver it to a local school. What are other ways you can take those lesson plans and bring it to communities around the world. So start thinking really big, because ultimately, it's that scale of the impact. That's quite impressive in admissions. But beyond admissions, that's where you're helping 1000s of people versus, you know, a few in your community. So I'd say think big, but think really efficiently. Think about ways that, you know, you can really partner with an existing larger organization to get your lesson plans out there, for example, or you know, how you can partner with people around the world, which we see a lot with our Crimson students, right. You know, they have some excellent initiatives, and we can pair them together around the country around the globe. They can bring it to different places, which is incredible. Podcast Host 13:54 Yeah, yeah. Well, this actually reminds me Actually, you pretty much described one of the students that was on the podcast, como Vich, who runs biz back and founded biz back and then created chapters in other schools. And now it's an international organization with all these different chapters and about 11,000 students participating in biz back, but they partnered with deca, which is obviously the one of the big organizations there in the US. And it all started by her, like feeling that there wasn't enough initiative or wasn't enough teaching of like basic life skills for high school students, and even for younger kids as well. And then High School, and she kind of created a lesson plan gave it to a local primary school principal. And the principal was like, Yeah, let's do it after school program bank, that was the very first, you know, biz back chapter. And then since then, now, it's all around the world. So I guess that's a really great example of students who have extended Far, far beyond their original idea. So for students who are interested in a great example, check out combo vigils episode and then there was also another great student Stephanie, who wrote a book wrote a curriculum donated 1000 masks from the sale of the book. And she also taught the class to 1000s of students in Texas, which was about epidemiology. So, yeah, there's definitely some great examples out there for you hearing those just briefly, obviously, and they the examples that you think would impress admission officers. Anjali 15:15 Oh my gosh, absolutely anything here you're talking in the 1000s. You're talking students who've created things. That's so cool. Like, I want to sit down and meet them like you did. And that's how admissions officers feel. They aren't looking for some, you know, metric. They're not trying to tick boxes on your application. They want to meet students that inspire them. And those are both incredibly inspirational stories. Podcast Host 15:41 Yeah, fantastic. Oh, Angela, do you have any final advice for students who are thinking about wanting to go to the US and trying to think about how to craft the most impressive extracurricular portfolio? Anjali 15:53 Absolutely focus on what you truly care about, if you just really love to play soccer, or you love to play video games, or if there's one cause that you've seen on the news, and it really bothers you learn more about it, explore that area, because you are much more likely to work on an initiative if you are enjoying it. And a lot of students instead try to kind of follow the path of someone else they've seen or do what they think they're supposed to do. And I'll tell you, there really is no right path so you can do what you enjoy and still kind of make an impressive profile. So I've seen, you know, people who are addicted to things like fortnight, still come up with awesome ways to give back to the community. So we had a student who did this whole video game tournament for charity. So for every additional hour, they played video games, they were raising more money for charities they selected. Podcast Host 16:47 That's ideal! Anjali 16:49 Yeah, I've seen people masterfully use Instagram for causes. You know, they love social media, and they owned it. So figure out what you enjoy, and just go for that. And it's going to be a great experience for you as well, in that case. Podcast Host 17:02 Yeah, I love that advice. I think so many students try and shoehorn their particular passion or bypass their particular passion, because they don't think it will show up as well on an application. But there you go, fortnight charity event and just play games for charity, which is I think many students are like, that's an extra curriculum where you can you can be a great initiative. You know, that's awesome. I love that advice. Well, for students who are interested in working with amazing people like Anjali on their applications, there's going to be a link in the show notes for a free one hour consultation. So be sure to click on that if you would like a chat with one of our lovely academic advisors from all around the world. But Anjali, it's been awesome having you on college tips. Thank you so much for your wisdom and advice, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Anjali 17:46 Awesome. Thank you for having me. Outro 17:48 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#40 How a 15-year-old Turned a Newsletter Into a Global Social Change Media Company

🗓 MAR 27, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And in today's episode, I chat with social change advocate and founder of Thred Media, 15 year old Jenk Oz. Jenk talks about how family newsletter evolved into a global media company with a following in the hundreds of 1000s. And he's advice for students wanting to do the same. Let's chat with Jenk Oz. Hi Jenk, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Jenk Oz 00:48 Firstly, great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. My name is Jenk Oz. I'm 15 years old. I am the, and what we will be talking about today is the fact that I am the founder of Thred Media, which is a social enterprise based around four things publishing, media consulting and production content aimed at Generation Z, the central tenet of the website is the other central tenet of the business is the website. And that is a social change based website, basically talking about everything of youth culture through the lens of social change. Podcast Host 01:19 Wow, that's quite an introduction you got there. And there's a lot of things going on a lot of things I'm sure we could talk about. But obviously, like, I think it's quite interesting to have a media company at 15 years of age. What point does it become a media company? Like how do you take say, for instance, an idea or like an Instagram page, or whatever it might be? And then start calling it a media company? Is it just like a turn of phrase? Or is it something that you have to get to a certain level or benchmark before you can actually call yourself a media company? Jenk Oz 01:54 Well, I think there's a few points you said there, I think the fact that if you want to turn your idea or your Instagram page, he says intermediate company, it is crucial that you think of it as a media company. And the only way that you're going to make that transition from an idea to a company is by thinking of your idea as a company, or else if you kind of as a really good quote I heard is, if you think of your idea, as a dream today, it will be a dream tomorrow. But if you think of your idea, as a company today will be a company tomorrow. So I feel like that that turning point is much more of a your side mental thing than other people labeling it as a media company, or kind of hitting a benchmark of a set amount of followers or kind of getting verified I think it's much more of a of a mental change a you have to make to be able to then progress. Podcast Host 02:43 Okay, well take us through your timeline for Thred Media, then from like, initial idea through to the moment you've thought of it as like a media company to where it is today with like, huge reach and a nearly 100,000 followers on Instagram doing, you know, across all different platforms you are at the moment. So take us through that kind of timeline and a few of the milestones along the way. 03:05 Right. So when I was gone as as a social worker now, when I was like eight years old, I had this weird kind of moment where so the teacher would always ask, what did you do this weekend? Oh, it's a civil match. What's your rugby match, kind of sat at home watching the telly. But I'd always say I went to this kind of dance convention, I went to this graffiti tunnel, I went to go see this musical or develop. So what ended up happening was the other kids would say Jenk, what are you doing this weekend? Because generally what you're doing sounds more formal. I'm doing like I'm with you. And so then their parents are emailing my mom saying what should I do this weekend because my kids even quite trusted and kind of wants to join. And then they ended up somehow my mom started writing almost like a weekly email of what to do this weekend. And that email went about as viral as it can do in a school mums, email and group. So then we thought this is quite a cool idea. This hasn't really been touched upon yet. So a few months later, I decided to show and tell at that same school to kind of talk about I called me and it was called iCoolKid at the time, the idea for that was just a website, a safe website, where kids at the time could get there in all their cool information, which at the time was just everything apart from major sports, celebrity gossip, and politics. So basically, whole information as we called it back then, then that was the show until after the show. And so we had about three years of guessing and knowing and a few years into like guessing and knowing once we decided, yes, we hired our first employee in May of 2016. Then may of 2017. We launched the website, I could get very different to how it wasn't the show and tell. But then we ran into an issue that the content was maturing as I matured, but the face of the brand and the name wasn't so what was happening is I was no longer a kid and ironically enough the name I cool kid or Word cool, wasn't that cool? So all we really had left was I, and that didn't work too well for us. So then we thought, okay, there has to be a change here because our content is kind of a Ferrari engine. And we're putting it into a fee of 500. Yeah, and we need to change the body of the website. So then we kind of develops and conceived Thred while iCoolKid was still live, late 2019. And then July of 2020, Thred launched. And that is a whole new website, same ish concepts. But all the news that we now talk about is 100%, social change related, it all has a thread of social change to use the name. And that was, yeah, that was one of 15. And I'm still 15. Today, I feel like to kind of further my point, I said before, I started thinking as a kind of company, when we hired the first employee, as you know, even before that, when we decided to make it a company that was when I started thinking as a company. I feel like if you're deciding to make it a company, and you yourself, don't think of it as a company yet, then you're that's just not gonna work out. So yeah. Podcast Host 06:04 Yeah, I think it's interesting that hiring of the first employee, though, firstly, what were you hiring for? And secondly, how did you pitch to that employee to come and join you on iCoolKid. Jenk Oz 06:16 So at the time, I was actually my guitar teacher who was looking for a his a part time guitar teachers looking for a job. And he's teaching me this all the time. And the what we pitch at the time, the job kind of description was an infrastructure developer. So just developing the website, and helping us develop ideas into a more concise way. And the way that we pitched it was this was basically what we had in our heads, because we pitched the idea to him. And as a group of us, me at the time, my mom and him, we would just kind of talk about it. And then we would can like kind of gather ideas and try and get them all down onto paper as quickly as possible to time and as most precise away as possible as time. And then the software didn't like we'd get rid of that piece of paper. And then we'd keep this off. We did like and then that is kind of how our storyboard started. And that's what we pitched him and that's who our first employee was. Podcast Host 07:08 What point do you think it really started to take off? Because obviously, like, you know, you turned Ico kid into thread, media thread, media started gaining traction quite quickly, was it mostly bringing people across from Ico kid into thread, or has thread been able to grow on its own? Jenk Oz 07:27 I think it really started to take off when we started to harness the different social medias, I think it's just it was I think I consider resigned to take off. Going from like, the first few days of Ico kid to like the first few months, and my cocaine was probably our most rapid kind of growth, purely based on the fact that I was I started to use my social media, my friends using social media. And then all of a sudden, we went from kind of hype, three daily viewers to like 3000 us on a within like a few days. So although we have more than 3000. Now, the percentage difference from three to 3000 is much more than other thing we could add, like we could even ever achieve at this point now, based on a given like a few days. So that was when it went from overseas like this is working. This is a thing now. And that was kind of my that kind of moment. Podcast Host 08:18 Yeah. So basically, when people started sharing it, and you started sharing across multiple social media platforms that being I'm guessing, Instagram and Facebook and now Instagram and Facebook, LinkedIn, Spotify, Snapchat, so what's your strategy there to kind of spread yourself across so many different platforms? Jenk Oz 08:34 Well, I think also website or as a brand, you have to be on as many social media platforms as you possibly can be purely based on the fact that your community is going to be everywhere. Now you want to entice community from everywhere. So the more kinds of seeds you can plant, the more community you'll have an extra bit of a no brainer. And also you're able to target different communities based on different platforms. I welcome my perspective. I kind of use different platforms for different things. I feel like people should treat their social medias very differently to how brands treat their social medias. I like to see my kind of social my social medias as two main things there's kind of like my business to face this kind of social media side and then my business to community effectively beat I know b2c is business to customer, but I can see it as business community. So business to business, I definitely use LinkedIn a lot more for that because I find that the best the most efficient way to be able to go from me to other like minded business people to be able to listen to them, and they're always super knowledgeable, and generally pretty trustworthy in the things that they're saying. Especially in kind of, I try and only follow people right find a super trustworthy, yep. But for b2c, I find that Twitter, Instagram and Facebook are really the classics there and you really cannot go wrong. And I feel like nowadays we'll be able to pull people with so easily. It's really just become like, unbelievably easy to be able to contact your community and ask them questions and kind of show them new things that also they think about things. Podcast Host 10:00 Yeah. So it's really allowed you to, I guess, refine your content and really refine that message of social change actually loved going onto your Instagram going to your link tree. And at the very top of the list on your link tree is social change, you know nothing about why go to our website or anything at the very top, it's social change, you've got a PDF in your Google Drive. And it's like how to be like a social change maker, and it gets really kind of interesting, informative tips on how students could do that kind of thing, particularly as Gen Z. Can you talk me through, I guess why social change? is such a part of what you believe would work for Gen Z? Jenk Oz 10:37 Oh, well, I think that to kind of both answer that question, you kind of have to define what social change is. And I feel like it's something that's not really done massively often for social change, and isn't a Google definition. So you've got to know it's true. Social Change is the change in social structure and cultural patterns throughout time. So what that means to our level, and what's happening right now, is we're seeing social change, these kind of changes in social structure and cultural patterns happen on a massive global scale, which is generally never normally the case. Because normally, social change kind of takes place on a country by country basis, which is generally why some countries on earth and others, generally is correlation between development and development of their social change pathway. And it's worth saying, there's so many different types of music movement, some people when they think social change, take all that's all about like climate change, and like helping, like global warming, clean water, plastic waste, equality versus equity, kind of human rights, animal rights, plant rights, kind of mental health, refugee age, gun control, abortion laws, like everything you could possibly think of that's considered socially good and needs to change will be under social change. Podcast Host 11:50 And you think like Gen Z is engaged with that topic? And what's your answer? People who kind of doubt the power of Gen Z? Jenk Oz 11:59 Well, I think towards your first question, I think generations that are really like very concentrated on social change is definitely a priority. I'm still quite funny statistic was funny, slightly concerning to refer 12% of generations that said that their priority was social change. And that's not concerning until you realize that the other priorities were things like love family and career, which kind of makes you Reaper perspective, and that's 4% higher than millennials and 8% higher than baby boomers the generation before. And that kind of trend is only going to rise, hopefully, as time passes. So yes, I do think generations Ed do play a massive role. I have that as a priority. Also, I think that generations, Ed can make absolutely massive differences. And there have been massive differences, especially in the US. I mean, that's really the epicenter of generations and social change in the US. And I find it, what I've done, there is unbelievable, and the kind of the combination of being very kind of opinionated, very loud group of people. And then the amplification of social media, which then amplifies their voices throughout the world means that one generations that are with an opinion and a share post can basically send a post across the world with within a few degrees of Instagrams. Podcast Host 13:12 Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things that I was talking to one of our strategists here Crimson guy recently, and he's like, tick tock has been such a fantastic thing for Gen Z to not just share dance videos, obviously. But share a lot of like social change issues and distill those social change issues with people might not know anything about it. And within a minute, you kind of know, the bare bones of it, what it is, you know, what's happening, what I can do to make a difference, and how I can help and Gen Z are all over it. And they really good, I guess, distilling serious issues in a small amount of time to make it accessible for a wider audience, is that what you're trying to package these serious issues in a way that is consumable by the masses? 13:52 Basically, we consider Thred to be a bit of like a gateway per se, to social change. So what I think a bit of an issue is Generation Z have is that people who are in social change, know social change and understand social change. People who aren't in social change, only see the tip of the iceberg of social change. So they The only people that people who aren't in social change, see all the kind of super protesters super the world's gonna end in 30 days super like ahhhh kind of people. And they think that it's either a one or a 10 it's black or white. But what people have to understand is that actually, there's a two to nine in between that and they just the people who you all see but they are invested in social change. And that's a kind of like the gray space in between. and we thread kind of see ourselves as the website where someone's into social change. Okay, come read thread, we're going to let you in, we're going to be accepting because we're going to show you kind of the tip of the iceberg of all the different kinds of areas of social change all the different topics or the different lifestyles or the different everything's and then whichever one you really enjoy you pick up on, then you can go deeper you can depart you can fly from the nest and go to a kind of a specialized web. I wish you a bit more kind of BAM in your face bit more dark, a bit more gloomy, a bit more apocalyptic. We kind of like to think of ourselves as the social change light. Podcast Host 15:08 People need that right, people need to find that first introduction to a pretty serious topic. And I always say for students, people get told to follow your passion all the time like is the biggest advice you can give to students is follow your passion. But it's I think you got to find what you're interested in first, what you're curious about first. And then like, after six months of reading and research and talking to people, it can start becoming a passion, but early stages, you've got thread media, you know, social change what I like that's a good concept. Give me a little of an insight into your life, though in like the week of a entrepreneur slash school students slash actor slash DJ slash doing all these different things. I know, there's probably a lot of glamour to that. And there's also a lot of unglamorous things to that as well, can you give us a little bit of like a bit from column a bit from column B, like some of the highlights of your week, and some of the lesser lights of your week? Jenk Oz 16:05 Well, I think I kind of have two weeks, I've got week a, which is my school week, or week B, which is not school week. And because I'm a boy school, so it becomes very easy to be able to differentiate was able to score weaker was not. So when I was school, this is kind of my my full priority, kind of I need to get through school, hopefully, with is going to grade as possible finish school. And when I'm at school, that what's on my mind, that's kind of, that's my school life, when I'm at home, then you kind of start to have the kind of different things taking over. Generally, I kind of do thread as much as I can during the day. So stuff like this calls with clients, just like stuff like that, generally, anything around the website, interviews, managing the team, talking to the team, that will be during the day. And then in the evening, or kind of towards the end of the day, I'll be doing things like kind of filming videos for the Instagram, for me videos for the team kind of plugging stories, as slowly that will merge into more DJing, practicing piano kind of doing my own thing chilling out watching way too many hours of Netflix, that kind of thing. It's a bit of a gradient between in the mornings, I'm kind of very thread based. And then I start to film videos a bit more fun. And I've started to DJ, and then I start to play music. And then I'll watch Netflix, and I go to sleep, and then I'll back up in the next day. Podcast Host 17:29 I think you need to have that Netflix time I think everybody does. I'd like to know a little bit more about your background in the arts in particular. And how do you see that as hoping what you do in thread, because obviously interviews and you know, going to create content and getting up on stage with TEDx. All these bits and pieces seem to require like the skill set that is often seen on stage as well, whether you be in theater in these kinds of things. So have you seen a link between the two? Jenk Oz 17:58 I massively massively do, I actually tribute quite a lot of my kind of don't want to say this, but like my public speaking successes, such I attribute massively to bit to kind of being in the performing sector. As a young child, I think the one thing it taught me was confidence, and the ability to be able to trust in what you're saying. And be able to know that if you stand up and speak to people, you're you're able to do that you're able to listen. And so the fact that I kind of added various acting roles as child and actually not only gave me confidence, it also gave me that kind of ability to learn the script and learn lines a bit better be able to know what I'm saying and understand why I'm saying instead of kind of just regurgitating lines, yeah, and I feel like that massively helped with the kind of public speaking aspect, but I do because, I mean, as you can imagine, if you're stepping up to on onto a TEDx stage, and it's the first time you've spoken to public spoken in public, as opposed to speaking up onto a TEDx stage, and you've done this on the other kind of acting roles in front of a camera, some in front of a live audience, then you're gonna feel much more confident, I'm also fit the best thing for my confidence. 100% was live theater, because in front of a camera, you can you can redo things, you can make it a bit perfect, but life later and you're doing the same thing every other day for a month, it kind of it really instills your confidence, just be able to like know what you're doing, and be able to trust in the fact that you know, we're doing and, and therefore not feel nervous about it. Podcast Host 19:26 It's great that you have taken that confidence into other areas. And I think that's a good note for any students listening who are in the arts, always look to other areas to see where you can take that confidence for you. What do you think has been the thing that's 10 next thread media? Is that a confidence and mindset side of things? Or is that a skill set and you know, pitching to clients and knowing what content works, those kinds of things? Jenk Oz 19:51 Are they the kind of thing that where you push your forward was the innate mindset that am I kind of precious everywhere I go, is the innate mindset to to know That you should never fear failure, but you should be terrified of regret. I mean, how many people thought of Amazon or Starbucks? I mean, you put sofas into a cafe, that's all Starbucks is. But I mean, the one person that did it, look where they are now, or Amazon or Facebook, even like the people who thought of those ideas, but never executed, and are kicking themselves. So that's kind of where that concept of Don't be afraid of failure, be terrified of regret comes from, that's kind of a thing that really pushed me to do it was because if down the road, there's something really golden here. And there's something like that is untapped here. And a lot of untapped potential, which I personally believe there is, then I want to be able to reach there and not see it happen 10 years from now and then regret it. Podcast Host 20:48 Yeah. So very much like a mindset side of things, right? Like, it's understanding that if you've got an idea, and you think it could work, and you've seen the kind of start of it working, then you should follow it up and exactly what you did, what makes you decide to follow one idea and not another because I'm sure like your 15 year around a lot of different entrepreneurs, you're hearing a lot of different things, having decided not to chase that and just to chase others? Jenk Oz 21:14 Well, I think this firstly is worth saying is that the the kind of cost it really is nowadays is not a massive thing generation said, firstly, based on the fact that most of us still live with our parents. And secondly, based on the fact that nowadays, with things like AWS, cloud computing, I mean, the cost of failure nowadays is a 10th of that than it was last decade, which I think is a massive, massive thing. I think it's also worth saying that this was one of the kind of the first ideas I had. And I generally haven't had that many ideas since. But my mind has been very focused on this. So I haven't really been brainstorming that often. I think one strategy, which I've heard someone do, and I really wish I could remember his name now, but I can't is he and his team will ideate and they'll come up with 20 ideas. The next day, they'll come back and they'll shoot down as many of those ideas as possible, they'll say, This is bad. Because this won't work. This is bad. Because this will work. This is bad. Because this won't work. The ones that just won't get shut down the ones that have nothing bad about them, they'll come out the next day, and then they will try and shoot those down again. And then by the end of it, you'll have one or two ideas which just have no faults whatsoever. And then they'll follow through with those ideas. And the interesting part behind that is that for every idea which issue down, they get a pay bonus, which I think is the kind of really interesting concept behind that. Podcast Host 22:30 I love that I think that's a brutal way of going through ideas. But also with that added bonus that you get paid for ideas that don't work. Jenk Oz 22:39 I've just remembered his name is Astro teller. And he works with Google. So yeah, Podcast Host 22:44 there you go. Alright, Astro teller. But yeah, I think that's a fantastic concept. What's next for thread media? like where do you see it going over the next couple of years, as you near towards, you know, college applications, etc. Jenk Oz 22:56 We got a few things kind of install glue, we've just launched our hustle section on our website. And that's got three sub sections. You've got entrepreneur, and now the career code section. And we're fortunate enough to have the absolutely awesome Mr. Dan cannon, who is our kind of a social change career coach. So if anyone wants to go ask him a question, they just pick up a question on the website. And then he gets to answer it. And he is clearly knowledgeable because he works at University of Oxford at the Sayyid Business School. So he kind of knows his things about sociants careers. So that's just launched. And we're very happy about that. The next week, we're expanding our media partnership with global citizen, which is for people listening who don't know is one of the kind of biggest social change giggle websites almost in the world. And we're going to be inserting their petitions and the actionable steps directly into our website so that you can kind of sign a global citizen petition as you're reading thread without ever leaving the website, which I think is quite a cool feature which we're introducing now. Just few days ago, we've trialed what I tested the different languages of the website. So I've seen it in Arabic, Indonesian, Chinese, Japanese, French, Turkish, Spanish, Italian, kind of all the classics. So that's quite exciting stuff that was quite cool to see the whole website in symbols, were launching thread media.com, which is the kind of official website for the consulting side. We've been doing it a lot behind the scenes, but we think we re definitely want to release the website. Now as soon as possible rolled that out. Although we already have kind of clients over time on a retainer, we're launching the disc or channel called social x change, which I think is quite small because it's like x change and like social x change alongside a group of kind of 20 hopefully, non government organisations. And for example, you'll be able to have a conversation directly with verbal citizen through our discord as resolution embassador is and kind of digital moderators on that. And then kind of on that point, we're also launching our kind of global Changemaker network and that will be our product. Full network of our ambassadors, our remote writers, our disk or moderators, and kind of all of our interns who actually start next week, I just realized what the data is our interns start next week. So yeah, that's very exciting stuff. Over the next few months, we kind of were hoping, and it's a bit of a more of a kind of phase two thread kind of bit of a longer goal. And we're hoping to be able to make the website responsive almost to your IP address or where you're coming to us from. And we're going to do that through a series of remote writers spread globally across the world, who formed the kind of ecosystem of writers for thread. And the idea is that you would go onto the web, you go off the website, from rural Malaysia, and you would see one story based on your kind of town, City area of Malaysia, you'd see one based on Malaysia, you'd see another story based on your continent, and then you see a few stories based on the world. And the idea is that we're gonna have enough global writers across the world to be able to fulfill that goal effectively anywhere you go in the world. And that's the big phase two, that's the next big thing that we're looking forward towards. Podcast Host 26:08 So there's a lot of different things going on. And some quite ambitious goals there. What are some of the like the the biggest threats to the future of threat? Is it you growing up? Is it you kind of getting older as it kind of happened with AI cool kid? Like, what are some of the other threats that you say to the future of the company? Jenk Oz 26:25 I've read, I don't know, I think that the biggest threat that we kind of face is, I don't know, I've just I've thought about this as as myself, but I don't know if I'm going to go back on the situation, depending on what happens. But kind of as I grow up, I'd rather become more behind the scenes and find a new Jenkins a new better improved smiley, bubbly, a better looking jangles to kind of chew to kind of replace me in front of the camera. And I feel like we're going to stay in our demographic, and the only threat that and this is a big threat. But the kind of one threat is that the next generation generation alpha has none of the same traits this generation said. So when they kind of come into this demographic, and they're like, ooh, what social change, then we thought we have an issue. But I'll we'll cross that bridge when we get that Fingers crossed generation alpha, or even more social change based on generations and teach them even more about social change a threat? Podcast Host 27:20 Yeah, well, if the trends continue, I think that that's exactly the case. I don't know how many students are out there. But hopefully, the future smiley Jenk Oz is listening right now, and is thinking how they can get involved. Who knows. So what would be some of your top tips for students if they want to kind of give a media company ago, Jenk Oz 27:41 I think I've kind of said my two, my two best top tips I could ever give to anyone who's aspiring would be my, don't be afraid of failure, be terrified of regret. And my if you treat a dream, like a dream today, it'll be a dream tomorrow. But you can treat a dream, like if you treat your idea like a company today or be a company tomorrow. And I feel like I'm just gonna reach reiterate those two things, because they're unbelievably important. And they're both such an easy thing to change. It is really is a switch, we have to turn and we'll help you massively to any students out there who are talking to you before, if you're looking to be a part if you're looking to build a social change kind of media website, but lots of experience a quick little plug towards thread, we're starting our internship, but thread, if you would, like I can send you my email and details. And then if you can like them for the show notes, I'll be awesome. Do email me, and that could be I hate to plug myself, but I feel like it's necessary as envoys of course. So if you kind of want to experience a social media company, based around generation said with generations and all around you that do Beth definitely consider thread for a remote internship. I'll be awesome. And yeah, that my two major pieces of advice and a quick blog. There you go. Podcast Host 28:50 Yeah, well, I guess it's that whole concept that I think a lot of the time students put mental barriers in front of themselves, because they are, you know, 14, 15 years old. And they're like, this doesn't sound something that like a 14, 15 year old should be doing like starting a media company. But there you go, right. Like, it must have been pretty interesting early on, when you were looking for support around this idea. Were there any kind of naysayers? Or was everybody on board? Jenk Oz 29:16 I think everyone was mostly on board. I think naturally, you kind of have one of the first kind of steps you have a 112 really kind of eight years old to have an idea for a website. Everyone's like, oh, okay, well done. Well done. You do that. But then they kind of kick off and you never really see those people again, you kind of think, Hmm, I wonder what they're thinking now. But yeah, you kind of have a few of those moments, but there's never ever really been anyone who's saying, No, don't do that as a bad idea. Which I mean, I guess is good, but I feel like if those people are knowledgeable, I know they're talking about and say that to you. I think it's always something to be able to consider going to take someone's advice if someone is in the field and says that's genuinely just a bad idea. But almost saying don't do it. But I'm saying it's something which all advisory reads, should we take into consideration? Because all advice is someone's opinion. So if someone's opinion is that, then you kind of do have to think, well, am I doing the right thing? Or am I going around the right way? And if that person is giving such a provoked kind of opinion, is that Riley promote science think about? Podcast Host 30:21 Yeah, actually, there was a student that I chatted with a couple of weeks ago, done some fantastic work in the social chain space as well. And Nathaniel, and he said, you know, be selective of who you take advice from, you know, everybody's got advice, but not every piece of advice is worth listening to. And it's kind of like understanding the people's background who's giving you advice and being like, it's probably not worth listening to at this point in my life. But you know... Jenk Oz 30:44 I definitely agree. I definitely agree with that both of them. There's some sort of merit and kind of being able to appreciate where someone's coming from. Podcast Host 30:51 Yeah, absolutely. No for sure. That's exactly right. And what's next for you personally? Like after school? What's your goals? Are you aiming for a particular University at all? Jenk Oz 31:01 and I've got an epic GCSE year headed my way with full teachers s grades, which I'm really hoping all my teachers like me, which I definitely cannot back. Yeah, GCSE, then move on to a levels, and then even vaguely about University. So here we go. Podcast Host 31:17 Yeah, you need to study in the UK or the US or somewhere else entirely. Jenk Oz 31:21 Hopefully, the US only because my mom's Canadian. And it's really a nice change of scenery kind of going. I've kind of done the really classic British incrementally going up in scores kind of as you grow up, like I've seen the whole I've seen the same group of people in school my whole life. So I thought it'd be a nice change of scenery, nice change of accent, you notice. Podcast Host 31:41 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's a, you know, if you can aim for those top universities as well, they've obviously got a lot of different things going on, and a great community to get around. Yeah, who knows where people might go, but hopefully, you can pave your path to those universities in the US. And Jenk, if people wanted to follow along with your story, personally, what would be the best way for them to do that, Jenk Oz 32:02 uh, on Instagram, the Thred Mag. So that's Thred Magazine, Instagram, Jenk Oz, which is just j e n, k, dot oz, O, Z, like the wizard. And the same applies for Facebook and Twitter, I believe. And then on the website, thread.com, everything we have mentioned is definitely a thread website. So that's very easy find, Podcast Host 32:30 and in some of the show notes as well, so people shouldn't stress. But yeah, Jenk, it's been awesome chatting. And I think for students out there who want to know a little bit more about social change, who want to learn a little bit more about what's going on around of the world in a way that is digestible for them is targeted towards their me is like, realize that being of like, you know, a young age can be an asset. 32:55 Yeah, I must, I must be agree a lot, you find that I get caught up quite a lot. So do you ever find that your age is really being a massive restriction for you, but to the surprise, actually end up saying the opposite because I found that it is there literally every day that someone creates something, it's not every day that the someone who creates something is also 12 years old. So that's actually massively helped me to kind of fast track my way straight into like, massive amounts of press stories, because everyone wants to write about the 12 year old creditor website, but no one really wants to write about the 53 year old white haired business very formal guy who created his 14th website do you know what I mean? Podcast Host 33:36 I know exactly what you mean. So yeah, no, it's great. And you got to ride that wave as long as you can. And you got to kind of make sure that you're, you know, telling media about it and spreading the word far and wide, which is awesome. That's exactly what I'm going to be doing with this episode. But Jenk has been fantastic to chat. And, yeah, look forward to hopefully getting a couple more people reading Thred as a result of listening to the podcast. Jenk Oz 33:59 Much appreciated. Thank you so much.

#8 College Tips - How to Effectively Research Your Future University with Oxford Grad, Evelyn Wu

🗓 MAR 24, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to college tips. On today's episode I chat with Crimson Education strategist Evelyn Wu. After completing her bachelor's and master's degree in mathematics at Oxford, Evelyn spent 10 years working at the British Council. Her experience is now helping Crimson students gain admission to top UK unions. We chat about what students should look forward to university, the rankings to take into account and how to set realistic goals. Let's chat with Evelyn Wu. Welcome to college tips. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Evelyn Wu 00:52 Sure. Hi, thank you for having me. My name is Evelyn. I'm currently working as a UK senior strategist here at crimson. So I graduated from Oxford was my master degree, both in bachelors and masters before joining crimson. So it's very happy to be here. Podcast Host 01:08 Right. So how did you go from studying maths at Oxford to joining Crimson as a strategist. Evelyn Wu 01:14 So after I graduated from my, for my degree, I really loved UK. So I was thinking, you know, what kind of job can steel, you know, helped me maintain this relationship. So I thought about British Council, which is was my first job before I joined Crimson as I was working for the British Council in Taiwan for roughly about 10 years before joining Crimson and now working as a senior UK strategist. Podcast Host 01:39 And so what does the strategists role involve for you? Like, what are some of the elements that you most commonly spend a fair bit of time on with students? Evelyn Wu 01:44 So we are helping students prioritize their program planning, whenever they join presenting their study journey, you know, there are different focus that they need to be prioritized at time, you know, for their application in the UK. So we help them identify their UK go and also prioritize their their planning, and we set the academic goals as well as the, you know, actual curriculum go. So then we can build them along the way and hopefully, and for the schools during the application years. Podcast Host 02:12 Yeah, I've been watching some of the acceptances as they've rolled in this year. And the students who've worked with you have done extremely well, I saw you had like a run of medical school admissions there for a little bit, what were some of the highlights for you in this admissions round. Evelyn Wu 02:27 Definitely for for medicine, medicine, in general is very competitive, especially for overseas candidates, we have had some great high achieving students from from crimson, they are all working very hard. And for medicine, you know, you definitely need to have a very solid academic profile on top of the, you know, meeting all the extra curricular requirements for those medical schools. So it's actually quite a lot to prepare, if you want to be a competitive candidate when you came medicine. So definitely, it was a very interesting journey. I've had students from this reason cycle and also the last cycle, who got into some of the great UK medical school. So definitely, yeah, very interesting journey. Podcast Host 03:10 Yeah, that's awesome. And you have decided to chat with us today about university research. What was it that made you choose university research? Evelyn Wu 03:18 Right, I think definitely, this is very important, isn't it? Because for our students, before they decide their university destination, definitely, there are a lot of factors that you can take into consideration. So how do you know which one would be a good fit for you? Obviously, for a majority of international students, I will say when when they come to score selections, they would firstly always look at ranking. So they want to be aiming for, you know, top universities, high ranking schools or a well reputation schools. So usually what we advise students is to look at ranking, but this is just one indication. So in terms of ranking, there is a university overall ranking, there's also a subject ranking. So definitely, I will advise my students to consider, you know, to look into both. So a university that is good ranking overall doesn't mean that particular subjects, they're also you know, very strong. So it's always good to look into different ranking tables. So for example, the very well known one, the key was ranking the times. And also there is a complete University Guide for subject ranking, specifically. So I think those are all very important. Podcast Host 04:28 Right? And then ranking, as you say, is just one small part of the bigger picture of university research. It's an area that I'm really interested in because through education and been in the industry for 10 or so years, and that kind of transition between high school and university. I know that there's a lot of students who go to university they think they're going to a great university based on ranking or based on course reputation or based on prestige for instance, and they get there and they not only like one semester in and they're like what By doing here, I didn't do enough research about like, what the cause actually involves what the university lifestyle was, like, you know, all these different factors. So, you know, we want to try and make sure students are doing the best research in that high school period. So they can actually go to a university that they really love and is really, as they say, you know, best fit University. What is an example, I guess, of bad university research, you know, a student who might just do it based on rankings? Or what are some of your examples of that? Evelyn Wu 05:32 Yes, absolutely. If you only, you know, choose your university based on ranking, I will say that's definitely not enough, you know, so ranking isn't all. So things like other things, like cost structure is also very important. So that's take Oxford and Cambridge, for example, if you're thinking, you know, I want to go for either Cambridge and Oxford, and they have pretty similar course. But then how do you make this decision? Because you can only go for one. So obviously, look into their cost structure is quite important. You know, every school they have their own cost structure design, do you want to be, you know, finding out a bit more, you know, what do they have in their course, in year one, you know, which modules are the core modules? And year two, and three, what are the selective modules that I get to choose, you know, whether or not I can see myself, you know, enjoying that course, I think that that's all very, very important. So in the UK, there's a very popular a lot of schools, they offer this course, called sandwich course. So not only just the subject study itself, they provide, for example, like three plus one. So apart from the degree program, that also gives you a year in industrial placement. So actually, you get to work with different companies. So to find out a bit more, and also develop your networks and expand your experience. So there's also other things like you get to do research in other European school countries. And also you get to have a placement in a different country like us, some schools, they will have links with, for example, MIT in the US. So there are many, many different cost structures and design definitely look into that as well. Podcast Host 07:07 I know a lot of students like to talk to alumni, or even current students at these universities for a bit of an insight into what life is like and what the workload might be like, etc. How reliable is the word of another student, you know, given that that student may have had different priorities going in, they may be a different person to you entirely, right? Like, if you don't know that person too well. And you're just kind of asking them because they're at that university? How can you take that on board and be like, their advice? And their experience is relevant to me, even though I don't really know them? Is that something that you advise students not to do? Or is that worth doing? Evelyn Wu 07:44 I think that's a really good question. So definitely, I always also suggest them to attend the virtual open days. Do you know right now, with a pandemic, we are not able to attend open days in person, but there are many, many virtual open days events. So definitely try to participate. Usually, this happens from June to September every year. So during the open days, what do you get, you actually get to, you know, have a tour around the schools, and they will, you know, introduce their department and you know, they will probably introduce you, the faculty, staff, the professors, and also the current students, so you actually get to talk to them and ask questions for anything that you would like to ask them, including the current student day. Podcast Host 08:23 Yeah, so and anything that's a valuable resource, other students who are currently studying at the University? Evelyn Wu 08:29 I think so to some extent, because you, when you attend open days, you actually are speaking to either the department lecturers or the, you know, the head of the department and some of the current students in the school. So you'll be able to find out the most latest updates to your questions. If you want to find out more about what kind of curriculums you know, extra curriculum or class that the school is able to offer, they will be able to tell you the most updated information and also what kind of support for international student I get to ask them a lot. So if say a student from Thailand, they want to know, what's the population of Thai students in that schools? Would I be able to get some international, you know, student support from that schools? I think the school definitely will be able to answer that. Podcast Host 09:12 Great. Yeah. So it is very important the open days talking to current students. I remember being at a Expo though, like a careers Expo here in Australia, and a dad came up to me and he said, Oh, you know, like, I'm very interested in having my daughter attend a UK University. I myself was a Cambridge man. I think my daughter's going to be an Oxford girl just ended up and I was thinking, Okay, how relevant might this be like a parent's advice because this parent bless him. I'm sure he's got great connections to Cambridge, but essentially, he probably attended the University like 20 plus years ago, potentially. So at what point does the advice and experience of alumni become less important? Evelyn Wu 09:55 I will say there will still be some value from the alumni experience of sharing But ultimately, you need to find out from yourself because only you would know whether that environment or that cause will be a good fit for you. And so research on things like, you know, what we mentioned open day, or maybe ranking will be important to some people. Obviously, programs like summer school program, you know, a lot of summer school program, they will, you know, organize actually within the college or university itself. So you get to actually experience a little bit of the culture of the school campers and even the commendations. What kind of resources does the school offer, you know, the vibe in the schools? So a lot of summer, summer school programs, they are able to provide that. Yeah. Podcast Host 10:38 Now, if you're working with a student, what kind of framework do you use to help a student narrow down their choices a little bit? Is it like, let's look at universities more broadly and think about what universities might suit us? And then go a little bit deeper? And then say, the particular courses at each university? Is that something that you do? Or do you do something completely different when you're working with each student? Depending on what they goes out? Evelyn Wu 11:02 Yeah, definitely. So for, first of all, we always find out which subject area they're interested in. And according to that subject areas, we will look at the ranking subject ranking together. So just to get an idea of what are the you know, for example, top 20, top 15 schools that are good at this subject? And then we can talk a bit more about, you know, from this top 20 schoolers, what do you think whether you have any idea of any schools on the list here that you're particularly interested in? How can we do a bit more research to find out, you know, some of these schools and look into their cost structure. So usually, we will ask, we will, you know, work together to narrow down, for example, top 10. And then we'll look at the cost structure together to see if this will be something that students is interested in. And obviously, we have to be realistic as well, we need to look at the entry requirement for schools. So depends on where students are currently at in terms of their academic performance. So we will set goals for our students, and then go for the realistic so retarget and safety schools for them? Podcast Host 12:03 Does career path or like employment connections to the university, does that play into the university research at all? Say, for instance, like, you know, the student wants to work for x company, and that particular company has a great relationship with a particular University is that something you know, students should have in their considerations as a high factor? Evelyn Wu 12:25 Totally, totally, I think, especially for programs that you know, will be able to provide some industrial links for their students, I think that's so valuable. So if the school happens to have any of the program with industrial experience, a lot of schools in London, they all have this, they have very strong links with the industry. So students can not only you know, they can gain some experience during their degree time. And after they graduate, most likely, they will be landing a job with those companies if they have been performing well. So I think that's definitely very valuable. So look into the graduate prospects in the job after that degree is quite important to Podcast Host 13:03 is looking at data a good thing for students to do and if so, what kind of data should they be looking at? If it's not just the school rankings? Should it be like the average graduate salary? And these kinds of things? I know, pretty popular as well? Evelyn Wu 13:16 Yeah, totally. So there are some websites, as you mentioned, definitely, for example, like prospect UK? If you ever wonder by doing this degree, what kind of career paths Can I go into? What kind of jobs or companies would I be, you know, having a chance to secure an offer from that company? So from websites like prospect UK, they have a lot of different details that we'll be able to provide to our students, by doing, for example, a mathematics degree, for example, what jobs can they be doing, but usually, I will also share with my students that, you know, a lot of my friends, they graduate from their degree, and they're not necessarily working, you know, on the the subjects that they study from there. So for instance, myself, I studied mathematics, but right now I'm working as a consultant. This has nothing to do with mathematics. So I actually do believe I firmly believe that higher education really is there to also, you know, to to gear ourselves with a lot of soft skills or diverse skill set that is really important for our life to be successful, not only just in Korea and also in our life. Podcast Host 14:18 Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of like some of the students that you've worked with, I'm always interested in the kind of case studies and I've heard a few of them at Crimson where there might be a student who's like, I want to go to the Ivy's or whatever it might be. And then after some research, and after some conversations, and it might even be like a three, six month kind of turnaround where that students mindset starts to change, then they start opening up their minds to other universities, other countries, even that they might apply to have you had an example of that where you've, you know, over the course of a few conversations a few months hope the students got to broaden their horizons a little bit because I'm going to guess you have a lot of students who come to you and the first thing they say is I want to go to Oxford, or I want to go to Cambridge. And then it's amazing. To reflect, okay, let's work that out a little bit and see what else is out there? Evelyn Wu 15:04 Yeah, totally. To be honest, a lot of my students, I will say, the majority of my students, they will come to me and say, Okay, we're only aiming for the high ranking schools, we don't consider any other school, they wouldn't require any safety Score Choice from the UK, they will much rather study perhaps locally, because they're just thinking, from the finance perspective, if they want to invest in education overseas, you know, including the living costs and all that you have to take into consideration. They wouldn't want to go for it. If it wasn't for high ranking schools. Obviously, we also have students that will be open to explore other countries as well. So like Canada, or even Singapore, so usually what we will share with them is, you know, the options they could potentially be considering. And then So apart from UK, if say, UK is your first preference, then what else do we need to prepare for other countries like Canada or even Singapore? So yeah, definitely, we have students who who has done that, but I would say majority, they already have a very good idea of what they want to go for usually happens to be hiring a school as I'm afraid. Podcast Host 16:07 Yeah, that's totally understandable. And I guess that's the kind of people who are, you know, working with you, as well as students aiming for those types of universities. But how do you have that conversation around cultural fit as well, you know, understanding that the student has looked at the rankings as looking at the data, they know that they want to go for that university, but might not be the best cultural fit is that kind of conversation and that kind of university research an important part of the process? Evelyn Wu 16:31 Yes, I believe so. So I will say, you know, not every school will be, you know, not, for example, not Cambridge, or Oxford, or no high parenting school, like Imperial LSE, there will be good fit for every students. Even if you are academically rigorous, you will be able to make the requirement, but you also want to, you know, think about, you're going to be spending three to four years of your life studying there for that degree, whether or not the Union University culture itself, or the environment itself will be a good fit for you. I think that's definitely very important to think about, especially if we're talking about medicine program, we're talking about five to six years, which is a long time. So you want to make sure that you want to definitely going to research and find out more about the school environment. What extracurriculars are, they're able to provide? What kind of, you know, teaching styles that the school is conducting, whether those would be a good fit for you or not? I will say for UK, they definitely will encourage independent learning. So a lot of times, they will definitely will not be, for example, like spoon feeding students or, or chasing you to do revision for exams, definitely, that will not happen. So you need to find out a bit more about in what the school is able to offer before deciding. So not simply based on ranking, Podcast Host 17:48 do you recommend looking into who the professor's likely are going to be I know you said, you know, at the open day, you'll get a chance to speak to the professor heads etc. But like, you know, in any given University, the staff might turn over and the professor that you thought you were going to get after one semester or so they've left and you know, they've got a new person coming in. So how much weighting should students put on a particular professor at a university knowing that that may change? Evelyn Wu 18:17 Obviously, I always ask students to also check out the professor's background. Because these are the people who will be teaching you. So you want to know like what kind of area of specialties they have, for example, if I want to study law, and I'm particularly interested in family law, whether or not my professors there are in this area of background, so whether or not they will be able to you know, give me a lot of focus on this particular area that I'm interested in. I think that's also quite important. And especially when it comes to college selections, you definitely want to be finding out a bit more about the tutors background. So in terms of the turnover, right, this is definitely not something that we can control. We say you really admire any particular professor, and we go there, they happens to, you know, maybe move on and change jobs. So they're no longer there. There's nothing we can do. But definitely, I would say, when you apply finding out the tutors, background professors background is definitely one of the indicators as well. So you want to make sure they have the right background to teach what you want to be studying. Podcast Host 19:20 Yeah. And do you also take into account what is the future of the university, say for instance, like they're always building the new big fancy lebara tree or the new big fancy computer science lab, whatever it might be, right? And you know, if you've got a 16 year old who says, Oh, I really want to attend x University, but you know, you've heard something where like a rival University is building this new state of the art lab type of thing, and it will be just finished by the time the student goes into that course. Is that something that you're saying, hey, look, you need to look at what else is coming up in the next year or two because this university is going to go up in the rankings because they're building this particular development or whatever it might be Evelyn Wu 19:58 totally awesome. Especially for like STEM subjects. For example, every year government, they will give a lot of fundings to, you know, top stem schools. And so, you know, using those fundings, you may see some of the news that this particular school, they're going to link with this particular company, they're going to build this, you know, virtual lab or something like really grand. So definitely take that into consideration. Yeah. Podcast Host 20:22 Yeah, there's so many bits and pieces. But one thing that I'm quite interested in is the Course Guide, because that is an intimidating piece of reading material. Because as a student, you might think you know, what you want to do. But then when you're going through a Course Guide, and it has like, hundreds of options, and you're like, Oh, my gosh, I thought I wanted to do this. But then this sounds interesting. And this sounds interesting. And can I combine these two things and all these, you know, different things that you start doubting exactly what your pathway should be? What advice would you give to students in that part of the process, when they're looking through the actual course guide? And trying to decide, am I going to study history, or anthropology or ancient history or this kind of, you know, there's all these different branches of particular subjects? So at what point do you kind of say to the student, this is your path? This is what you should put on your application? Evelyn Wu 21:11 Yeah, another great question. I think for UK, before you apply, this is something quite different from the US, you definitely need to decide on the course on the program itself. So you already know which subject and which program you want to apply. And obviously, for UK, usually, in year one, everything is more is more generic, more fundamental concepts. So is the broader education, you know, core subjects that you need to study. But the fun part starts in year two, and three, where you are given more, you know, selective modules. So you if you are, say, under mathematics, you're very interested to be more specialized in computation, you know, computing departments. So something to do with computing. So you want to check out whether from year two and three, that school has the offerings for, you know, more computing modules, or even, you know, different programming or different projects that they're able to offer. So I think that's quite important. Podcast Host 22:05 Yeah, well, I've seen one of the Course Guides in the US and was Yale's Course Guide. It's like 2000 different courses. And you're like, how do you even choose from that, you know, like, it's, it's a crazy challenge for students to pick what they want to do. And I know like the US is kind of more flexible, but the UK like you need to know what you want to do. And it's good that you can have that advice for students to help them I guess, decide what they want to do in that early stage. wintered students start university research isn't something they can leave until, like, you know, the last three months before they submit their application, or should they started a lot earlier, Evelyn Wu 22:39 I will say the subject, definitely the earlier, you're able to determine which subject when I study, the better. So you can start your foot, you know, all the preparations focus on that subject related, or activities, or any competitions that you're interested in. I think that's quite important for UK. But regarding the score selections, you don't have to, you know, this side on the list onto I will say, three months or a few months before the application, that's totally fine. Podcast Host 23:07 And that's like the real crunch time where it's about putting that list together and committing to that list? Evelyn Wu 23:12 Yes, totally. And also, I have to say another aspect will be to take into consideration the predicted grades, you will be able to, you know, achieve during the application year. So at some point, we want to be realistic as well. So by having a preliminary school list, then we look at what our predicted grades that we are getting in that year. So we can revise that school list again, whether these this list is, you know, consider realistic art. Podcast Host 23:38 I feel like you've had that conversation a couple times with parents and students. Evelyn Wu 23:42 Yeah, all the time. Podcast Host 23:44 Yeah. And when you see a school list that perhaps isn't realistic, how do you go about having that conversation with the parent and student to say, hey, look, this is what our goals probably should be. And that is no less kind of achievement at the end of the day in terms of like getting into these universities, when like, they might have Oxford or Cambridge at the top, etc. But you're saying, oh, let's go for, you know, maybe like a Warwick or St. Andrews or, you know, these kind of universities that are still very solid? How do you try and like, convince families that you're kind of second tier universities are still good choices? Where job? Evelyn Wu 24:18 Great question. So I think UK is very different from us. We can't apply for like 10 different schools for UK, we can only go for five, maximum five. So obviously from those five, we want to make sure that we have carefully, you know, chosen our schools, so we all stand a good chance in terms of our five applying schools. So being realistic is quite important. So when when the time that we receive our predicted grades, first of all, we will check through whether we make the entry requirements or not. So it's very likely if we still you know, want to go for the school that we're not meeting the entry requirement, it's quite likely they will reject you from the first round unfortunately. So you We will try to explain that to the parents that you know why we need to be realistic. And obviously they are rich target and safety. So for reach, as long as we meet the entry requirements in terms of the competitiveness, nature of the program, we can definitely still give it a try. But we will explain to the parents because of the competitiveness, whether or not this program will be considered a reach school for the students or a target school. So, a good combination of reach target safety, usually, that's what we think would be a good you know, idea to move forward. Podcast Host 25:34 Just for the benefit of our listeners who may not have heard that terminology before reach target safety, can you just define what you see as a reach school, a target school and a safety school? Evelyn Wu 25:46 Totally. Um, so for students, for example, if you are aiming for top schools like Oxbridge LSE Imperial, some of the very competitive programs, even if you meet the entry requirement, there are still some uncertainty factors, for example, the return on entry exam, so we wouldn't know how well we'll be performing for the written entry exam. So due to those or interviews due to those uncertainty factors, so we would normally categorize those schools as rich school for the target school, usually this is, you know, where we are definitely, you know, at that level, so it should be a pretty, you know, easy, you know, straightforward schools for us to, Podcast Host 26:29 you know, target and the safety scores, they are the ones that just in case, if things don't go well, as we plan, at least we will have a safety score that require slightly lower requirement. So it should be a good safety choice for us. And if a student was to go away from this podcast episode right now and start doing university research, what two or three steps would you recommend that they take right now to kind of start on their journey to figuring out what they want to do after high school or where they want to go after high school. Evelyn Wu 27:03 So start thinking about which subject you want to study, because for UK, you do need to, you know, First, identify a subject area, and then based on that subject, do a bit of research on what are the options that we have, it can be from the ranking are. So if you want to go for only high ranking schools, or if you want to particularly be looking at those sandwich program, so a program that will be able to provide you with some industrial experience or a research opportunities, and then look into those particular programs. And then things like location cities are also important living costs, these are all quite important. And then finally attend the virtual open days to find out a bit more about what the school or the course is able to offer you. Podcast Host 27:51 Yeah, fantastic. Well, even it's been awesome chatting. And thank you so much for your time today and college tips for students who would love the opportunity to work with someone like Evelyn on their application to the UK, US, Europe, Canada, and anywhere else that Crimson hopes students get into. There will be a link in the show notes for a free one hour consultation with a lovely academic advisor. But everyone, thank you so much again for your time for your wisdom, and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. 28:17 Thank you so much for having me. Podcast Host 28:18 Thanks for listening to top of the class. Subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#39 How a TED Talk Unlocked Anagha's Potential

🗓 MAR 20, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cole. And in today's episode, I chat with STEM advocate, feminist and founder, Anagha Rajesh. We chat about a TED talk that helped unlock an obvious potential been involved in a program with the UN, the significance of Women's History Month, and how she aims to bring mental health awareness to students around the globe. Let's chat with Anagha Rajesh. Hi, Anagha, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Anagha 00:48 Hello, first of all, thank you so much for having me on board. It's such an honor to be featured here. So my name is Anagha Rajesh. I am a student of Integrated Science at the Birla Institute of Technology in India. I am also the co founder and CEO of mine chance, which is a youth led organization for mental health awareness. I am super passionate about reading public speaking. And I'm currently interning with a California based AI startup called Mark Tech post as a content intern. In addition, I am pursuing an introductory course in quantum computing. And yeah, that's about me. Podcast Host 01:30 Wow. Okay, so a lot to talk about. But one of the other things that I know about you is that you're involved in the UN in some way. Can you tell us a bit about that? Anagha 01:38 Yes, definitely. I am an advocate for the girls in science platform, which comes under the umbrella of the United Nations. And so this is an initiative that is aimed at making science more accessible to girls across the world. So we are a group of around 50 girls from across the globe. And we get into advocacy programs. And we are mentored by Her Royal Highness Prince is chemistry. Yeah, we get we recently launched a Braille in science campaign to make science more accessible to a visually challenged people. And we're working on several other projects as well. Podcast Host 02:20 Yeah, so a lot going on. And it's a fantastic group to be a part of, did you get nominated for that? Or did you apply for it? Like, how did you come across an opportunity like that? Anagha 02:30 Okay, so I was a part of a mentorship program called 1000 girls 1000 futures program of the New York Academy of Science. And while I was at this program, or one of my friends in this program, told me that she was a part of the girl science platform. And she asked me if I would like to join in. And that was back in 2019. And during that time, the platform was just starting. And we were just in the initial stages. So the application process mainly comprises of, you've got to write a sort of introductory statement or a personal statement, talking about why you want to be a part of the program. And the second part is to get one of your science teachers to nominate you for it. Podcast Host 03:14 Right. And it's been a fantastic thing to include in your resume and include as part of your profile, and to really give yourself the platform alongside the UN must be fantastic, but you are part of a lot of different things. Can I ask what is your general approach to new opportunities? Like how do you decide which things to pursue, and which things not to pursue? Anagha 03:38 So I will start by giving you a small background about myself, and how I discovered that I'm someone who can do a lot of things at once. Sure. So I was in school, and I studied in an Indian School in the UAE. So in the Indian education system, generally, the focus is on being focused on one thing, so you've got to either focus on academics, if you're good at sports, focus on sports, if you're good at arts, focus on arts, and so on. So the priority is focusing on one thing and doing it you know, giving it your best. Yeah, when I came into high school, I really didn't want to give up a lot of activities that I was doing as a middle schooler. But I was expected to do that because the perception was that to be good at academics, you've got to do all of your extracurriculars. And I was in a very confused and scared state of mind, because I didn't want to leave anything. And I also wanted to be good at academics. And I thought there was something wrong with me because I wanted to do a lot of things. That was when I came across a TED talk by Emily watersnake. And she spoke about this personality trait called multi potential lights. So I discovered that I'm a multi potential light, which means that I am someone who can survive only if I'm putting my hand into multiple things at once. So that's what motivated me to keep going and keep taking up opportunities along the way, and not limiting myself to just academics, or just one activity Podcast Host 05:06 with the TED Talk, that kind of mindset thing, right? where you're like, oh, okay, I'm a multi potential life in kind of understanding how you might fit or how you might label your multiple interests. Did that help to expand your reach further? Did that kind of free you from judging how many interests you had? Because I think a lot of students would say, gosh, you know, I shouldn't be doing so many things. Like I should just be focusing on school and getting good school. But once you kind of saw that Ted Talk, it gave you that freedom to go and chase as many different things as you wanted. Because you realize that that's the personality that you have. Anagha 05:43 Yes, absolutely. There are a lot of students out there who are scared of taking up multiple things, because they're scared it will affect their performance in something else. Yes. So yeah, this step Doc, and also subsequently went on to join this multi potential ad community, I subscribe to the newsletter and all of that, and that keeps me going, it still keeps me pretty motivated. Podcast Host 06:05 I'm still interested in how you kind of place value on on an opportunity and how you decide which ones to follow, and which ones not to. Anagha 06:12 Okay, so one thing that I look for in an opportunity is that it gives me a dimension to improve myself. So I'm currently a part of I'm interning with Mark tech post writing articles about AI. I've never written a single article about AI until I started off with this internship. So the reason I picked this up is because it gave me an opportunity to widen my horizons and learn about AI, which is an emerging technology. So I always look out for an opportunity, which is capable of helping me grow as a person. In addition, I also look out for the working environment. So have we got a very stringent working environment that you cannot sort of, you know, be flexible with your work schedules, I don't do such opportunities. Because I believe that flexibility is one of the most important parts of MVNO, multi potential items, being able to do a lot of things. I also look at the sort of individuals who are involved, and how passionate they are about it, you know, the intent of them doing it. So if somebody is doing a project just for the sake of being portrayed as a social service person on media, that doesn't really interest me, if someone is doing it with a good intention, I think that's really important that I always make sure I try and find out how passionate they are about what they are doing before I joined them. Podcast Host 07:33 I love it. That's a good way of saying if you are a good fit for them as well, right? Because if they're genuinely passionate, then it kind of motivates you to be more part of that organization. But I'd love to know more about how you got the internship. So can you take us through how you came across it and what you had to do to get that internship? Anagha 07:53 Okay, does internship was actually offered to me as a part of a competition that I won. It was an article writing competition. And I was a first prize winner. So as a part of my prize, I was offered an internship. But in general, like considering all the other opportunities that I've come across, I believe that having a strong LinkedIn profile is one of the key elements to land a good internship, because I've landed a couple of wonderful opportunities through LinkedIn. And I think it's important to build your profile. And in addition, or when you build your profile, make sure that you connect not just to your friends in high school, but to people across the world and be open to connections and be open to networks. And, you know, I think that perhaps you land a lot of opportunities. Podcast Host 08:42 What do you think some of the elements of a strong profile are, Anagha 08:46 I think the most important part of a strong profile is to be authentic. So everything that you mentioned on your profile has got to be obviously it has got to be correct. But also, it shouldn't be something that just highlights all of your achievements. Of course, you've got to highlight your achievements. But a lot of high schoolers tend to focus on wanting to just highlight the prizes that they have won. But that doesn't add a lot of value when it comes to opportunities. What adds value is your experience and your journey. So if you say that I have done x y Zed internship, don't just say what you did during the internship, but also say what you learnt in the process and how that internship changed you as a person. Maybe you also talk about the challenges that you face as an intern and how you overcame them. I think these are the things that a lot of people are looking out for when they want to get you on their team. So they want people who are honest about their experiences. And they also want people who can work well within a team and most importantly, have a human connection. So when you talk about the challenges you faced, there is an instant human Connect. Podcast Host 09:57 Yeah, I definitely agree that the LinkedIn files that just have a whole lot of different competitions, I've won, etc, etc. Like, if I've never heard of those competitions, I'm like, Okay, I'm assuming that's impressive, but I don't really know much about it, I don't really get much of a sense of the person, if all I'm saying is the competitions they've won, but if they write in their about section, who they are, what they've learned what they're wanting to do next, or in their posts, you know, they post regularly. And you can see some kind of depth of thought they're a little bit of that kind of genuine personality coming through in their posts, that they're not trying to be this professional that they think LinkedIn wants to say, but they really just being themselves. I think that's super important. And I think, you know, high school is definitely getting on the platform a lot more and contributing in a lot of different ways, which is awesome to say. I'd love to talk about mind champs, though, because that's an organization that I think super important, obviously addressing mental health. Can you talk to us about why you started that organization, and how it's progressed from starting to where it is today. Anagha 11:02 Mind champs is a youth led organization that focuses on making conversations about mental health more inclusive, and making these services more accessible. This started off in 2019, when I was a part of again, the mentorship program that I mentioned earlier, 1000 1000 features program. And during one of our conversations on this platform with other girls, we were talking about mental health, and I sort of spoke about how mental health is such a taboo in the community that I come from. And surprisingly, everyone came up and said the same thing. And we realize that mental health is a taboo beyond geographical borders. So it's a taboo in almost all societies across the world. As someone who's seen close friends suffering from breakdowns, who has seen my uncle suffering from schizophrenia, and not being able to access treatment, because it's considered a taboo. I've sort of seen it firsthand. And I've also heard about experiences from others. And so we decided to get on board and start off an organization. Of course, it wasn't easy, because none of us had any experience starting an organization from scratch, we've had to work through a lot of things. So initially, we started off as a project to do an E magazine on mental health. That was our first focus. We weren't even an organization in the starting, we were just a group, of course, working on E magazine, and mental health. And when we launched our first e magazine, The response was amazing. And so we decided to stick on to it and keep going. And it is in 2020, actually, towards the latter half of 2020, that we actually became much more established and started taking in more people other than the initial set of founding members, we started opening up applications and getting members on board. We've been growing our social media outreach, we are doing our own podcast series, we're doing a training program for students to create content about mental health. We are launching student competitions, and we're doing blogging. So we're doing a lot of different activities. And our main focus is not just to D stigmatize mental health, but also to empower youngsters with the skills that they would need to help achieve this mission. Podcast Host 13:26 Yeah, I love that you started out as like an a magazine. And then grew it from there, like the magazine, I guess, was the testing platform for the interest in this mind champs and what you were doing. And then once you realize that there was a lot of interest, that's when you said, Okay, what else can we do to support students in the very difficult time of high school and and the mental health challenges that students encounter along the way? In terms of the different elements that you've continued to add on? Has there been anything that's particularly more successful or less successful? Like? Is the podcast going really well? Or is the blog going really well? Or do they all kind of complement each other? Anagha 14:10 I think when you talk about going well, I think that's a very subjective thing. Because what I think is going well might not be what somebody else thinks is going well. But I think as a whole, all of these activities are pretty much complimentary to each other. And a very, very exciting opportunity that I want to talk about is a contest that we launched very recently. It's called, it's all in the mind speech challenge. So it's a speech challenge that is open to students aged nine to 18 across the world, and we're looking out for speech videos, which are just 60 to 90 seconds in length, but it's explaining our mental health concept in as creative a manner as possible. So that's an exciting thing that we have launched very recently. And all we are hoping to reach out to more students. And to get a lot of participation. Podcast Host 15:03 That's great. I actually saw you post about that on LinkedIn. And I was going to ask you to bring that up. So I'm glad you've done that already, which is awesome. But is there any kind of end goal for the organization now? Or is it just increasing awareness about mental health? Helping students be more prepared about mental health? Like, is there any guiding principle that you have for the organization that you can kind of make all your focus and all your work and build around that one principle? Or is it like that general awareness and general preparedness that students have in mental health? Anagha 15:34 Actually, I personally don't believe in end goals, because I think excellence is a journey and not a destination. But when you talk about mind champs, it started off with a focus on awareness. But now we're slowly shifting away from that, and we're trying to get more realistic. Because I mean, awareness is not the only thing that you need about mental health, you need to equip youngsters with the sort of resources that can help them become more, you know, accepting of mental health conditions when they face them, or when their friends or loved ones face them. Or what we're trying to do at present is to reach out to students and youngsters in the remotest parts of the world, and to take mental health to them. I really can't point out a particular project because they're still in the pipeline, we're still working and figuring things out. But our focus is currently on taking mental health from just the students in our circle, and to take them to say, religious in rural India, or certain economically backward sections in say, Africa or South America. That's the sort of thing that we're working on at the moment. And yeah, we really hope to, you know, come up with something exciting. Podcast Host 16:50 Yeah, that is exciting. Even just like the thought of that is exciting, which is, which is very, very cool. But based on your experience, what would you say are some of the fundamental lessons that you've learned that other students could potentially learn from your experience? So setting up student organizations is a very popular thing to do. But looking back on the growth and development of mind champs, are there any kind of advice or tips that you would give for students who are interested in starting their own organization in whatever topic or interest area that they may have? Anagha 17:23 Oh, one fundamental thing that I've learned in the process is that there's no right time to do anything. If you want to do something, just do it, because things will fall into place as you go along. Because when mind Sam started, it was a pretty small space. And none of us knew how to actually work on it, none of us had the experience. But we still tried out different strategies with we tried out various aspects of the program. Of course, there were a lot of things that failed. So the point is that if you want to do something, to go out and do it, and as you go along, you will automatically learn. And you will also gain access to resources as you go along. When you For instance, if I'm talking to someone, and I say that I'm a part of mind champs, maybe they have something exciting to offer me, because their networks are different from mine. So the focus is on just starting off, even if you have no idea about what that is just start off and let the process teach you. I think another important aspect of maybe starting an organization or are doing something of your own is to be as authentic as possible. Let yourself make mistakes, let your team make mistakes. And don't judge yourself based on that. But keep going. And then good communication skills are operating important aspect of it as well. Again, it's something you learn along the way, but it's something I think you need to put some cautious effort into being able to do because when you lead cross cultural teams like mine champs, so my chapters members from across the world, so the way you communicate, it should be respectful of cultural aspects and their cultural identities. And you should also be mindful of time zones. So when you communicate across cultures and across geographical boundaries again, so your communication skills are really, really important, and you need to be really empathetic towards people. So yeah, that's what I think. Podcast Host 19:20 I think that's very good points and letting the process teach you rather than feeling that you need to know everything before you start the process, which I think a lot of students try and do. And I guess that's the paralysis by analysis, I think is what they tend to call that side of things. But I'm interested in how you have brought up authenticity again, and there was a post on LinkedIn by a high school student that's gone somewhat viral, and it was opposed by a guy named Stephanie Sue. And Anagha 19:50 that I remember reading it and you know, resonating a lot with it. Podcast Host 19:53 Right, right. And it basically goes on the lines of, you know, she sometimes sees high school students on LinkedIn. They have like these amazing profiles. And like it can be a little bit daunting and intimidating seeing these amazing profiles and can make you not feel like you're doing much or not doing enough and these kinds of things, yet, I find that a lot of the time LinkedIn or any kind of social media platform, really, it's sometimes difficult to stay authentic on that platform, when there is I guess, that social pressure to hype up yourself, right? Like you're trying to put your best foot forward, you're trying to make any experience sound impressive. And you really want to try and make sure that you are giving people a view that you're amazing, right? So how does that kind of fit with the authenticity side of things? Like how can you make yourself sound authentic? and amazing, at the same time without them necessarily clashing? Anagha 20:51 Okay, that's, that's a tough question to answer. But I'll try and take a go at it. Yeah, I think one thing that I believe is that every one of us is amazing, in a different sort of way. So the problem is with the fact that we've sort of categorized amazing into a closed box and just let it stay there and, you know, show everyone that this is the sort of amazing thing that you need to do. So you've sort of set a template for being amazing, which I think really needs to change. And I think the change comes from within you. So I, I totally agree with the fact that a lot of student profiles on LinkedIn, especially if students who are younger than you, and who are achieving more than you, sort of makes you tense at times. But I think the key is to sort of let your authenticity shine again, you need to get rid of the notion that being authentic cannot be amazing. So there are certain aspects of every single person's personality, that is amazing. And you need to put that out there. So don't let others notions of amazing personalities or amazing achievements, sort of, you know, take away your enthusiasm, show what you're enthusiastic about, and write about what you're enthusiastic about, share your ideas. And I mean, even if other people have got better ideas, it's absolutely fine. And a podcast by Mark Randolph, who was one of the founding members of Netflix, he keeps talking about how most ideas that people come up with are always bad, and good ideas are actually not a fixed thing. So you know, good, certain ideas can be good, at certain points in time. So the fact is to believe in yourself, even when times are challenging, and to let the amazing aspects of you shine out and people will gradually recognize it. Podcast Host 22:49 Well, I think you've done a really good job in answering a tough question. It's always interesting to kind of think about, you know, that pointy end of high school achievement, right, and how competitive it is. But you're right, everyone's amazing in their own way. And I think if people are just authentic and writing about what they're passionate about, it will it will shine through and don't try and blow everybody away with your profile. But it's there's some people who would just not get what you're doing or not understand what you're interested in. But there will definitely be people out there who do appreciate and do see your talent for what it genuinely is, which is Anagha 23:21 awesome. Absolutely. Another thing I'd like to add on is, I mean, when you are authentic, you will automatically be connected to opportunities that genuinely interest you. So if you're going to build a profile based on somebody else's template, you will only get opportunities that somebody else gets, which might not be what interests you. So all the more reason to be authentic. Podcast Host 23:42 Yeah, absolutely. Now, it's also an interesting time to be chatting with you. Because, you know, obviously, it's Women's History Month in the US and it was International Women's Day, not long ago as well. On March 8, you yourself are part of the young women in STEM ambassador program with the UN. What does Women's History Month or International Women's Day? What is this whole month mean to you? Anagha 24:08 I believe that every day should be women's day, every day should be everyone's day, actually. But then it's really, really important that when you have a Women's History Month, you have the Women's Day, it's time to look back at the challenges that women have overcome across generations. And I think in the recent years, things have become more open for women. At least when I stepped into university for the first time this year. I was shocked to realize that out of 900 freshmen students, only 60 are women. So this was a shocking revelation because until then, I've grown up in UAE and I studied in our own English High School Sharjah, which is a gold school and all our faculty, all our senior leaders Strip members, everyone is a woman, I've never really felt the real gap. In, you know, women's representation. I used to say my entire school is made up of girls and we're still running really well. So I never really understood what under representation of women in STEM means until I stepped into university in November last year. So as someone who has just recently realized how Stark the underrepresentation is, this month is really, really important to me to highlight the achievements of women, and also to talk about how women can support each other, to go forward in their careers to achieve their dreams, and not to set a template for successful women again, so what does success mean to you as a woman is different for different people. And it's also about appreciating the wonderful women in your life for me, it's my mom, the lovely teachers and my principal at our own Sharjah, my lovely friends, who keep supporting each other and keep growing and the lovely team at mind champs which is mostly girls. So it's, it's about recognizing a lot of things. And it's also about getting allies, getting men and other members of the community to accept the fact that that is under representation and to become staunch allies of women in this fight. Podcast Host 26:20 I was going to ask what can people do to continue to support women and I guess, being an ally is an important thing. But for you at like that high school university level, what does it mean for men to be an ally of women to help them continue to push forward and to, you know, as you say, like, break that crazy difference in 900 men you said and 60 girls or class of 990 60 girls, like that's crazy. Anagha 26:50 Yeah, class of 960 girls, which is pretty shocking. So tell me what allies, I think one thing that men could possibly do is to sort of get away from this general trend of micro aggression. So micro aggression is when you are making, you know, sexist jokes, or sort of mansplaining things all the time. You know, it, a lot of men do it very subconsciously, because it's a part of, you know, their entertainment process. So I think that should stop. And as allies, that is one thing that men could do to stand up to other men and call them out for making a sexist or a racist remark, and get them to sort of apologize and to understand their mistake. I think at a fundamental individual level, this is something that everyone can do to really make women feel like they are a part of the organization, not the institution, not a group, or whatever you're talking about. Podcast Host 27:51 Yeah, and I think, you know, getting involved in organizations like 1000, girls, 1000, futures, and the UN organization as well, fantastic opportunities for young women to add their voice, not just as a single person, but add their voice to an organization and to like a global organization at that. So hopefully, you know, there's some girls there who are inspired by your story. And what's next for you, future wise, you're very busy, your first year university, can you talk us through, I guess that experience what that has taught you so far? And has that kind of reaffirmed what you want to do in the future? Anagha 28:32 Okay, so again, as a multipotentialite, I have too many ideas in my bucket list. And so definitely, I'm still working on figuring out a real future plan. But on a certain extent, I'm really, really excited to be working on the intersection of STEM and public policy. And I'm looking at again, a lot of times what happens is, you are putting people into silos, you're saying, Okay, I'm a science person, I'm going to do science, or I'm a humanities person, I'm going to do public policy, I really want to bridge that gap as well. And to sort of work at the intersection of science and public policy. And again, I want to take along with me my identities of being a mental health advocate of being a feminist, of being someone who's passionate about public speaking about writing. So I'm going to take all my passions forward and sort of carve out a niche for myself at the intersection of science and public policy. Podcast Host 29:34 Yeah, that sounds like a very, very good fit for you. And I'm sure that you'll continue to do that. Now. If students wanted to follow along with your journey. There's so many different things going on with you. There's the mind champs competition, which we'll put a link to in the show notes. And, you know, obviously, there's a lot of different other things that you're doing with the AI internship and the content you're writing there, but what are some of the main ways that students could get in contact with you have course there's LinkedIn. And we can put that in the show notes as well. But is there any any other way that students can come across your story and your content? Anagha 30:07 It would be great if you could, I mean, if you wanted to reach out to me personally, then definitely my email, or my Instagram profile, which is where I usually share all the fun aspects of my life and my views. So yeah, following me on instagram would be great as well. Podcast Host 30:26 I can put those in the show notes, too. So people can come across your story. But before you go, I'm interested in two more questions. Number one is, you know, final advice. But number two, can you tell us a little bit about failures that you're most proud of? I mean, in saying that post that we were talking about on LinkedIn, I think in terms of mental health as well, we need to get better at students celebrating the failures as well, and seeing them as a positive rather than a negative. So are there anything in your life that you can reflect on and say, hey, yeah, that didn't work out. But I'm really glad I gave it a go. Anagha 31:01 I would say that one of the first times that I went up on stage to speak, I was really excited about it, and I go up on stage, and then I'm blanked out, because I cannot say anything. I mean, there's no, they're not what's coming into my mind. And I'm, I'm just frozen on stage. And that too, like in front of a pretty large audience, which is, which can get really, really scary. So that was one very, very defining moment in my life, because that's when I really, really decided that I need to go and become a public speaker, and I joined Toastmasters. I'm now a certified competent communicator with Toastmasters. So I used to keep getting blanked out on stages and not being able to speak because I thought that whenever I spoke, I always had to, you know, make an impact, I always had to appear as the most knowledgeable person in the crowd. That was what was stopping me from speaking my mind out. And so during the process, what I've learned is that I've got to focus less on how the audience perceive me, and instead focus more on the message that I want to take to them. And it doesn't need to be something that people don't know about, it can be just something very simple or sharing your own life experiences. So I think this is a very, very big learning process. Another thing has been about when I was the president of the Student Council at my school, and my school is a pretty big one. So we've got around 7000 students, to be able to carry out initiatives in our school have such a large crowd, it sort of gets very, very difficult. So to get people with different ideas on board. So there are so many projects, which we've had to give up because the planning was not right, or because we couldn't get all the stakeholders on board. But then causes projects fail, I've learned so much about how to be a better leader, how to be better at planning how to be better at organization, how to be better at transparent communication. And I think that's so so important to me, and what my position as student council president has taught me is really, really invaluable. Podcast Host 33:12 Can I just say that I love the story of the public speaking, you said you got up on stage, you froze, it was in front of a large crowd. And after that experience, you're like, I need to be a better public speaker. And I think that's so indicative of a lot of the students that I've chatted with on top of the class, it's like, failure doesn't mean that that's not for you. Failure just means that that's something I need to work on, right. And like, you know, you join Toastmasters, you've been in the program for a little while now. And you know, been a part of TED talks and these kinds of things as well, which is awesome. And also on that whole kind of thing of the way the crowd perceives you versus the way you know, you might be kind of concerned about how the crowd perceives you, etc. I've done a lot of public speaking as well. And my general thought on that is the crowd is probably more scared of public speaking than you are right? Or like, generally speaking, a lot of people are quite fearful of public speaking. So the mere fact that you're up there on stage, you have already earned their respect, right? I think a lot of people get up on stage and feel like they're starting from, you know, behind the eight ball type of thing. Like they need to earn people's respect that they're already, you know, looking at a crowd thinking, why are you up there, etc. But that's not the case. Like I always get up on stage and think most of the crowd is really scared of public speaking. So the fact that I'm up here, they're already kind of cheering for me, they already want to see me do well. And it already kind of starts off with a positive relationship that I have with the audience. So there's a little tip that kind of helps me when I'm up on stage doing a 34:47 think of it Podcast Host 34:47 Yeah, like the majority of time. If you're watching someone talk, you're like, Don't stuff up. I'm cheering for you. Like, I wish you all the best when I'm watching someone speak I have no ill will towards them. Like I'm sending good vibes and I'm sending Good luck to them. And I'm like, just willing them to do well. And that's the vast majority of the audience. They're all kind of cheering for you. And I think that's a great positive intention to start with if you ever get up on stage. But before you go as well, final advice for students in any areas that we've covered today, whether that be setting up organizations being emotionally potential i'd, what would be your final advice for students, Anagha 35:25 I would say, or one thing is always be yourself and always do what you really wanted to make sure that you detox your social networks very often. So people who put you down people who discourage you very often keep a distance from them. That's what I call detoxing your social networks love it. The second thing is, I would say, keep learning. So make sure that you are exploring something new every day, regardless of what field you are in what interests you. Listen to resources, read up resources, every day, make sure that you learn something new so that you can keep updating yourself about what's happening around the world. And thirdly, enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy. I mean, of course, there are a lot of times social constraints, you've got academic constraints, but you know, a take time out sort of prioritize your work, plan things out in such a way that you can do what you love, and you can, you know, be happy and make others around you happy. Podcast Host 36:30 I love it. Thank you so much for joining us on the top of the class podcast. It's been fantastic to catch up and to hear about your story and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

#7 College Tips - The Must Listen Finance and Investing Crash Course with Jamie Beaton

🗓 MAR 17, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello and welcome to college tips. In today's episode, Crimson Education CEO and podcast co host Jamie Beaton gives a must listen Crash Course to students aiming for investing and finance careers. He shares his favorite resources and extracurriculars for high schoolers, a breakdown of the career pathways, and what to expect in your first few years working in finance. Let's chat with Jamie Beaton. Hey, Jamie, welcome to college tips. It's awesome to have you on the show. And I don't think we need too much of an introduction because people already know a lot about you as the CEO of Crimson Education and co host of the top of the class podcast. But in terms of your finance background, I think we could give some information about that. So can you tell listeners a little bit about your background in finance and investing, which I know is extensive. Jamie Beaton 01:06 Definitely. So I guess this all began in high school when I picked up AS economics when I was about 17. Up until that point, I never thought about economics investing in these areas. But I really fell in love with the subject because I'd love math for many years. And when I picked up economics, I realized that actually, at the intersection of economics and math, there are all of these quite exciting finance business topics. There's a real career you can have working as an investor working on Wall Street, etc. So that was kind of the initial piece in high school. And then I headed it off to Harvard, where I did applied math and economics, which basically is a major that a lot of aspiring wall street kids take the Applied Math economics generally, as you know, it's a more mathematically rigorous economics major at Harvard. And, you know, it's very, it's very popular for those who want to do things, they can read some banking. So basically, when I got to Harvard, my mission was very much beginning to finance. So my first summer I worked for a hedge fund called Weiss Asset Management, which is a leading hedge fund in Boston that does quantitative trading, so using various algorithms to trade the market. And that was really fantastic experience. And then from there, I got involved in a number of student clubs at Harvard, most notably Black Diamond capital, which basically is a investing club with students and restaurant money into the fund. And it's flipped. And based on those two books on investing experience in as a as a fund as a team, you make investment decision. And it's a really practical way to kind of build finance experience, it's quite realistic. And then from there, I have a fantastic opportunity to begin working at Tiger management, which is really one of the world's best hedge funds. And really one of the hedge funds that sort of started the hedge fund industry under the leadership of Julian Robertson. So I worked for a tiger for several years while I was at Harvard, over the summers during term time. And that was really the bulk of my finance experience. And so we traveled around the US meeting company CEOs to research stocks, to learning how to do short selling, financial modeling, and all the various parts that it required to be a good financial analyst. Following that, of course, I've been born in Crimson for many years. But as I did my MBA at Stanford, I did take a lot of extra finance classes. And it's an area that I've really kept up to speed on, because if they're really relevant trends to our students, and also, you know, to our investment decisions at Crimson as well. So that's a bit of background on sort of my history of finance, so to speak. Podcast Host 03:23 As I said, it was extensive, and it proves to be extensive. But you know, the fact that you're only in your mid 20s, still. Now, in my view, like it seems that finance and consulting and these kind of like, I guess, buzzwords have been thrown around a lot more in high school Nowadays, people are like, Oh, I want to be a consultant. And I want to be someone who works on Wall Street. What are the differences or similarities that those career paths might have? Because I hear them throwing around almost an equal portions? Jamie Beaton 03:50 Yeah, well, so these things are quite different. So let's start with consultant. So we will say consulting, they often managed to consultant and this often means working at firms like McKinsey, Bain or Boston Consulting Group, that's really the top here, followed by firms like Oliver Wyman firms like PwC, your EY etc., which offer some kind of consulting services. But generally speaking, the job of the management consultant is that a big company will usually hire you to advise on an important strategic project. So let's say you're Google, and you want to figure out how to get into the social media space. And you might hire McKinsey to look at different options for things to buy or potential opportunities and businesses you could create. These projects typically involve teams of about four analysts per project. But you can of course, high multiple teams if you want. And generally speaking, the clients will be paying upwards of half a million a week for these teams to work on their their cases. And as a result, they expect very high caliber people to be assigned to the case into the hiring model of firms like McKinsey, Bain and BCG has a darkly been to hire the most academic students from various top universities and their particular to hire from Many of the Ivy League schools, Harvard was known for a while as McHarvard because McKinsey hired so people from that school. So basically, management consulting is really versatile. Because as a 23, 24 year old, you get to work on a different pace every six to eight weeks, you learn about many different industries and get really thorough training and experience because many people that join consulting, don't actually have any previous business experience for him to the company has had to really develop detailed training programs. And so it's one of the most effective ways to rapidly appeal your business understanding strategic thinking ability to dive in different industries, that management consulting, kind of solving real world business problems, and making recommendations with large companies but what they should do with their resources. The second part of the question is, what is Wall Street? What does that actually mean? So Wall Street, although it is a street in New York broadly refers to the finance sector and all of the firm's you can work at, you know, in this associated area, and that includes a wide variety. So it's everything from working behind the scenes on a risk desk, figuring out whether a portfolio of stocks is risky, or you know, what kind of return profile it has, all the way to the more glamorous jobs where you're investing and actually making investment decisions where you look at the market, look at different companies figure out what you should buy, see what a good prices, then try and enter these trades with a view to make a profit. Now, the most popular way to enter finance is as an investment banker, and that usually involves working for a firm like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, you know, other firms like this, um, Citibank, Credit Suisse are all examples. As an investment banker, you typically are doing a couple of jobs the first you're trying to help companies IPO or less than a public market. The second is that you are involved in the buying and selling of companies. Let's say you have a company and the company wants to buy another company, they'll hire an investment bank has typically facilitate that transaction. In many ways you could think about a real estate agent, but definitely with a lot more perhaps math and finance skills and bigger transaction sizes. Now the other kind of way you can enter the investment banks as a sales and trading analyst, and minimus job, you may help clients execute trades, let's say you've got a big company and they want to do a foreign exchange trade, you might help them execute that trade. You also occasionally will be trading on the bank's own balance sheet and making investment decisions. But that's getting increasingly real with some of the new reforms. But overall, your end of the year the investment industry is either a investment banker or a sales and trading analyst. And then for a select few people. And you can skip that that's called the sell side where you're typically selling services or selling stocks, etc. to what's known as the buy side and the buy side is the more high paying area, we are actually making investment decisions. And typically there are three areas of note. One is hedge fund analysts or investment analysts. The next is private equity analysts, and the third is venture capitalists. So just quickly a hedge fund analyst is investing stocks and publicly traded stock. So investing money in publicly traded stocks like stock exchange's, venture capitalists are investing in private companies usually early stage, you know, looking for much higher return but with a much greater chance of failure. And then finally, there's private equity analysts, your job is to buy quite mature but private companies that are usually grown at slower growth rates, they're trying to cut costs, make them more efficient than sell them, usually 6-10 years. So that's kind of the summary of the finance side of the house. So that overall differently some of the most exciting career pathways for many of our young ambitious firms and students around the world. Podcast Host 08:32 Yeah, well, thank you for that awesome explanation. I think I've actually learned quite a few things from that, which is awesome. I'm interested in the more investment finance side. So we'll stick with that today. I think a lot of students who do a lot of extracurriculars at school, learning what they want to do after high school and university and career path from those extracurriculars. But I think in terms of like investing, or finance, there's not a huge amount of extracurriculars that schools will typically put on, for students interested in this pathway. You know, we've seen a couple of fantastic students on the top of the class like Aryaansh and Koki, who have done really amazing things in high school, or like, I guess, outside of high school in their own time to kind of learn about this finance industry and do what is really cool extracurricular. But what's your thoughts on how students can learn about finance learn about investing whilst they're in school? Jamie Beaton 09:24 Okay, it's a really good question. So the first thing that I would say is, first of all, if you want to be one of the students, as I said, at Harvard, where you can break into by side as a hedge fund analyst in your, you know, early 20s, rather than typically the path of going for years into investment bank, and then looking to make that transition, you have to start learning that content earlier. And one of the big focus areas of our school you know, comes in global Academy comes before philosophy is to equip students to compete much earlier on in their careers. So your question is very timely, because many high school students and can get onto this early, so the first thing the student should do Learn a level economics a level psychology a level math or equivalent AP qualifications like AP microeconomics, AP macroeconomics, AP, basic calculus, AP psychology. The reason why is math, economics and in psychology are three of the critical areas of knowledge you need to be a successful investor in the market. And there's not really much point, you know, doing a lot of extracurriculars if you're weak in those areas. So first of all want to take a deep dive there, you can also add some accounting, which is actually it's kind like the language of Finance. It's the language of how a company is doing. And having accounting knowledge helps you evaluate stocks and other investment opportunities. So you definitely want to get familiar with the accounting statements as well, if you can, you can learn that through various online courses. For example, we have a learn stock investing online course you can take which we can put in the link. Or you can also look at things like Coursera is Wharton, a financial modeling course, which a number of my ambitions from the students take out a recommendation as far as the other extracurriculars. And once you've kind of achieved that core area of knowledge, you want to move to kind of like some reading activities. So for example, Seth Klarman, a famous billionaire hedge fund investor in Boston, has a book called margin of safety. And you can get the PDF online. That's one of the you know, stronger interactions to find it. Now a professor at Harvard Mahir Desai has a book called, I think the wisdom of finance, which is a guide to, you know, principles of finance written in a way that's quite understandable. That's really, really good read as well. And so you know, that's kind of the reading content. And when you apply for schools, like say, you know, Columbia, you have to state what books you read recently. So that kind of coverage is important. Now, as far as the hard extracurriculars. Things like the Tiger Global Case Competition, which is the world's largest High School case, competition from business analysis is a really good one to do. And there's also areas like stock investing competitions, where you get to pitch stocks, and they're growing in popularity around the world, you can also run your own your school community, the next thing is you can create a financial investment club at your school. Or you can, for example, join the Crimson Global Academy out online high school and participate in our investing club, you can also do things like, for example, going to invest in conferences, what, generally speaking don't have an age limit. And you can find them in local areas, you can get internships at local funds, or global funds. We also help those as well through both internships that can be remote or in person, we have seen some interns recently PwC, for example, to get some finance experience. And then finally, you can look at things like research so you can get involved with economics professors, pop them in different ways, with local online support programs. And that's a very popular way to build that kind of experience. Well, one of our Crimson students, Lucas Lee, who got into Harvard and Princeton with us, and is now working on Wall Street, you know, we spent a lot of time with them kind of walking them through some of the relevant behavioral finance economic research before he applied to schools like Harvard and Princeton. And without an interest at finance, there are a couple of different things you can think about. There's also some related skills such as debating, because when you pitch stocks outside of fun, you've got to be able to convincingly articulate your argument, look at the you know, weaknesses and then argument. And so, you know, activities, like debating really builds up a lot of those core skills as well, which is why top hedge funds like Bridgewater love debaters as an example, there are a couple of quick examples that I'd give you. Podcast Host 13:17 Yeah, well, that's a fantastic thing for students to work on, I think if they were probably hopefully taking down a lot of notes, or you can obviously check the transcript as well, because we'll have this full transcript there. But I'm interested in like his students investing in things like Bitcoin ripple, like a couple of stocks Is that a good part of the learning process for students to actually put either a bit of their own money forward, or perhaps their parents could mind them a few bucks to actually put money into the market is that worth doing when you're 16, 17? Jamie Beaton 13:46 So generally speaking, I'm pretty negative on people investing in Bitcoin, as like or associated cryptocurrencies, as the for end the market. The reason for this is that generally most stocks or stock indexes like the s&p 500, which is the 500 biggest companies in America, they historically have less volatility, they've got a high what's called a Sharpe ratio, or the ratio of return over risk. And basically, to analyze a stock, you've got to understand how the company operates, you know, how demand may change for its products, other kind of factors, like competition. So it's quite an intellectual exercise that you can, you know, really study and understand and, you know, build some good skills behind when you're analyzing Bitcoin and other currencies. It's basically pure gambling to be honest around where the price is going to go, because there's no fundamental value attached to Bitcoin or any of these other currencies. And up until recently, they've had very limited actual real world use. So you can't, for example, go buy a coffee with a Bitcoin, with very few exceptions. And so generally speaking, it's really speculative. And typically what happens is when the bitcoin price rises a lot, there's lots of media articles covering people that have done very well and that makes people pile into the asset and they want to drop so people lose money. Some of the recent GameStop pusteria splits kind Like speculative, her chasing activity is really quite antithetical to you know what strong investing principles usually are. And they don't really teach you much about the market. So overall, I'm not a big fan of staying with those assets. So it's much better to, for example, go and read things like Warren Buffett's investing letters and look at some restaurant companies like Coke and understand how you might value a business like that. That's gonna be more useful set of skills in general than if you you know, sort of speculatively, trade, cryptocurrencies. Podcast Host 15:28 Yeah. Okay. That's good advice. I think for students who are aiming for a career in finance, investing, etc. It's probably a little bit hard to know exactly what they're getting themselves in for in terms of like the hours the workload some of the things that they might be doing day to day, is there any tips based on your experiences, in terms of like what students should actually expect from that career path? I think a lot of students are looking at that career path, perhaps because they say dollar signs, right. And I think a couple of those dollar signs might end up in their pockets. But I know it's not a walk in the park. But what are some of your experiences both the good and the bad? Jamie Beaton 16:00 So I would definitely say that if you want to earn a lot of money as young person in the world today, the two most consistent paths to do it would probably be working as a private equity hedge fund analyst in a Wall Street firm, or working for a big technology company like Facebook, Google, where they do pay really competitive salaries. For both of them on the money side, a lot of outcomes and students now they've gone through careers, and we've gotten them into Ivy League and other great schools, they've gone on to work for Goldman Sachs, other top firms, and they usually start on salaries of about 110,000 USD, up to about 140,000 USD, depending on you know, which firm they're working at. Now, these salaries tend to rapidly grow over time. So salaries and finance as you go up the totem pole do grow quite significantly. So it is true that you can make a lot of money in these places. And part of the reason for that is that there's a lot of capital in the world that has to be invested somewhere because many things like countries, pension funds need to get returned. And so it requires lots of people to go put in all the effort to then invest all of this capital in general. And while there is a growing trend of what's called passive investing, where you just invest in broad indexes, you don't choose individual stocks. Most major and you know, sources of capital, like countries, pension funds, want to invest in some active strategies, which means thirdly is where people are making active investment decision. So overall, that create big demand many, many investment analysts and you know, that's kind of how that piece works. Now, as far as the hours, basically, if you work as a buy side investor, I investing someone's capital, the markets open from usually 9am, to sort of 5pm or so roughly, you know, in the New York timezone, St. And so those are the key hours that you want to be awake for usually, you know, working, but then of course, you might come in early. So at tiger, you started about 7am. And then, you know, would often stop at about, you know, 6.30-7, but we could, you know, could go longer if you want to father Day is a relatively common, so about a 60 hour 50 to 70 Hour Work Week is not as pretty standard, I think, on the investing side. But you're also really learning a ton. And so it's usually really fun for people doing this, the part that's really quite taxing, I would say, as the investment banks on the sell side, where you traditionally are putting in, you know, literally 100 hour plus work weeks. And it's not uncommon for interns to have to work 14, 16 consecutive days, and leave the office at 2am and have to be back at 8am, many, many days in a row. So in eastern banking, particularly in the junior rungs is really a bit of an insurance game. And there's huge attrition rates where very few investment bankers stick around for many years, many didn't leave to, you know, more favorable working environments. But these places are able to get away with it, because they do have really good extra opportunities when you work for them. And they pay well and they've got a great brand. But the hours are really brutal. And there's sort of no shying away from that. So if you're up for that, you know, by all means, but it's very hard to find a proof the investment bank, especially if you're in those Junior years, and there's many, many people willing to kind of compete and put in those hours to sort of land the jobs. That would be kind of a dynamic to them over in tech, it's you know, much more chill working hours, usually 50 hours a week is pretty standard 40 hours a week. So that's kind of how it works. Podcast Host 19:12 Yeah. Okay, good to hear. Now, one other question that I have is how realistic is it for students outside of the US so outside of the Ivy's outside of like your top 20 universities in the US outside of like your Oxbridge, LSAT, etc, to land those top jobs at like you goldman sachs and you know, Tiger management's, etc. Is it likely for a student to say from Australia, who studies commerce to end up as an intern for Goldman Sachs? Or is that like not the case at all really? Jamie Beaton 19:41 I mean, the short answer is it's borderline impossible, which is kind of sad, but the way the numbers work is basically when recruiting from say New Zealand um, you know, Goldman Sachs will take two or three people across the country for, you know, their team, and then in Australia, you know, the same thing is true across many of the top schools, they have a bit more recruiting aside, because there are large operations in Australia, but you do need to really have a GPA that's literally, you know, almost perfect within your university and be, you know, really prominent on campus having landed great internships. So this is not the kind of path where you can go down if you sort of cruise through a commerce degree. And then you decide, okay, I want to get this and paint me shot. The people that make them this career track, I sort of gunning for it from the age of often 17 onwards in a pretty intensive way. So the best way to boost jobs and getting into this field is through getting into a top USA UK college programs at Wharton Business School, a very popular place for many outcomes and alumni, we've trained lfcs, accounting, finance, Cambridge, economics, many of these schools, but you really want to focus fire in high school and getting into these places, if that's really important career pathway for you. And it's worth knowing that like in finance is serious momentum around the brands you work for. So for example, if you leave college and you work for Credit Suisse, and which is sort of lower rank than, say, Goldman Sachs, it's very hard if you ever been switched into like a Goldman Sachs firm later on, and it sort of permanently puts you on a certain trajectory. So the financial industry is very competitive. And they do rely heavily on the signaling power, so to speak of the person's undergraduate school, you can kind of make up for this a little bit with masters and MBA programs, and then recruit from those programs. So that's a way to sort of second chances, so to speak. But you know, again, you're going to need to have some strong undergraduate grades, landers, business school program. So overall, that's what I would say for that, you know, really the top tier of jobs. However, there are many ways to work in finance. And if you want to just work for like a big four accounting firm, they take a huge proportion of people, so you don't need to necessarily push yourself particularly hard. In University, many people from New Zealand and Australia, for example, Singapore, etc, are able to successfully work for Big Four accounting firms. But if you don't want to push into that sort of upper level of Wall Street, the competition is very fierce, because the rewards are also very high as well. So that's kind of how the cookie crumbles. Podcast Host 21:56 Yeah, yeah. Well, final advice for students who are considering this pathway, perhaps not yet convinced that it's the pathway for them and want to get convinced that it's the pathway for them, you know, they want to look for that, I guess, certainty in their career path, but uncertain as yet as to if finance and investing is for them? What kind of advice would you give for those kinds of students? Jamie Beaton 22:19 The most important thing is you want to maximize your options. So you want to go ahead and take things like your a liberal math, you know, your AP, you know, BC calculus, for example, we were a little further maths, things like that, again, basically put you in a position where you can actually compete for these options, you want to think about what universities you're aiming for, because you're it's really a stack, if you get into these top us UK schools, that's really important to understand that no, kind of going into this. And, you know, I guess you probably want to understand where you want to be potentially working in the future as well, which might guide which University you'd go to to, the final thing I'd say is that like a lot of the content required for finance, you know, you can learn it, probably from the age of like, 16 onwards, honestly. And I've seen many really sharp students really front load that knowledge. So don't feel like you just need to kind of passively wait to get to university to that learning that from them in a great position to help you kind of build those core skills. So overall, it's a very doable career track, but you just need to really commit to it early and go hard. And then you you know, I see almost everyone that takes super seriously can land the job, but it's not the kind of thing you can just decide to do when you're 21. And you know, give it a crack. So you've got to be kind of on that steady path for many years. And you can always switch out a bit later on. So you're not committing to life and finance, but a couple years is a very popular place to start up your career and have a lot of value later on. So overall finance definitely a fantastic career trickery, but you got to start on early is the key message. I want people to think about this podcast today. Podcast Host 23:42 Yeah, I think that's completely correct. I remember one of the students were interviewed for the tiger global case comp one of the winners. He was like, through this experience, I know that I want to do business finance, investing, that kind of thing. And it wasn't until it had that really in depth intensive experience that he was like, Yes, this is what I want to do. So I think for students who are out there seeking out those opportunities, I think the TGCC or Tiger Global Case Comp will be happening again later in the year. So watch out for that and students if you would like the opportunity to work with someone like Jamie on your application to top universities in the US or indeed the UK, make sure to check out the show notes for a link to a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor in your area. Jamie, thank you so much for your time for your insights for your wisdom on all things finance and investing and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Jamie Beaton 24:33 Thanks, Alex. Have a good one. Podcast Host 24:35 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#38 Turning a Family Holiday into a Thriving Business and Simplifying eCommerce

🗓 MAR 13, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex cork and today I chat with Young Entrepreneur of the Year finalist, Liam Millward, Liam turned a travel blog into a 50,000 readership magazine, and has now turned his attention to simplifying e commerce. We chat building a social community starting a business and more. Let's chat with Liam Millward. Liam, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Liam 00:50 Yes, I guess I'm titled as a young entrepreneur, I guess. I'm 17 located here in Brisbane, working on a few exciting startups and businesses, mostly in the payments, travel type space. Yeah. Podcast Host 01:05 And what point did you feel as though you actually were an entrepreneur because I know this title gets thrown around a lot. And you could be an entrepreneur for, I don't know, selling a few things on Facebook marketplace, or you can be an entrepreneur for the things that you're doing, which is a little bit more than that fair to say. So at what point did you feel like you were an entrepreneur? Liam 01:25 Yeah, for sure. It's a term or title that's thrown around a lot. It's not something I use just willy nilly. It's not something I have on like my LinkedIn bio, or something like that. I feel like it is overused. However, I mean, I probably classify myself as more of a startup founder, I suppose when you bound something or start a business, that early stage is really crucial, whether you go forward or that stage where you go from coming from an idea into a founder, into a CEO. And going from there, yeah, I guess some founder, young entrepreneur, figuring it all out at the moment. Podcast Host 02:00 Yeah, it must be a pretty interesting pathway to take when you're still in school. And we can go all the way back to you starting a travel blog, because from where I sit and having read your bio, that seems to be with, you know, the kind of catalysts for realizing that there's potential for a young guy like yourself to reach 1000s of people. So is that right in saying that the travel blog was kind of the starting point for your entrepreneurial journey? Liam 02:28 Yeah, for sure. I wanted to go down the route of being a doctor, I guess, going into medicine. And the backstory is that we went traveling for three or four years around Australia, and world with my mom, dad, and assist on during that time started sharing our travels on social media. And that was kind of my first business accidentally, in some case, I suppose, started sharing our travels on social media grew an audience around 30,000 people in four months and started partnering with councils and tourism brands to promote regions and stuff like that through our blog, and also on their social media channels, we stopped traveling. And that was, that was a chance to move on to something a bit more exciting. So that's when I started navigate Australia, which was a free digital travel magazine focused on our sharing Australian travel in a digital format that was free for travelers, and that grew to 50,000 readers in 12 months, I started partnering with councils and tourism brands and that type of thing, again, started making my first bit of money in business. And that was exciting, you know. And I guess the overview to that is starting something that you're really passionate about to begin when starting something that doesn't necessarily need to be this whole massive idea. We were already traveling. So sharing our travels was just kind of a byproduct of that. And it happened, because we were already doing it. So I suppose if you're doing sport, maybe you could share your sport or something like that. Podcast Host 03:53 Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the things that's so interesting about your travel blog is that a lot of travel blogs out there is written by adults and or parents, usually if you're targeting the family market, which is a very lucrative market. But if you are a student or you're in the child market, as it were, you often have more influence or more power over whatever way you go, than sometimes the parents might have because the you know, the kids might say, Hey, I really want to go to here. I saw this blog I saw, you know, Liam's going out here, and he's having a good time. Did you feel like that was a part of the appeal of your blog that it was written by a high schooler rather than a parent. Liam 04:34 It was very mixed. So mom's still was very passionate about writing and, and submitted articles to travel magazines and that type of thing. When we started working with them, I was probably more focused towards the photography side of things, and a lot of like the social media content. So yeah, I suppose that was a very strong kroetsch that we went with began accidentally that was, I guess councils and tourism brands wanted to partner with us. Or maybe Because it was pretty unique. There's a lot of travel bloggers out there that there's not many people that are 14, 15, 16 that are doing it. So yeah, I think that was a strong point. Podcast Host 05:11 Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, as you mentioned, it can be anything that you blog about or anything. It doesn't have to even be a blog. It could be YouTube, or Instagram, whatever it might be. Yeah. Yeah, in the age of the pandemic, it travel might not happen extensively for the next couple of months, still, but I still think that's a really relevant pace that students can start voicing their opinions, or voicing their thoughts to try and get into that family marketing Liam 05:38 could be anything, you know, like, you're passionate about the environment. And these are just examples, like a blog is just one idea. But if you say if you're passionate about the environment, regularly, tell your story, get people engaged in what you're doing, build an audience, and then that audience follows you into whatever you do next. And whether you down the track, okay, you've started a blog, we're just using a blog as an example, you start the blog, that also gives you credibility and validation. If say, you want to go and do something in journalism, or marketing, or Yeah, it just opens up so many opportunities. Podcast Host 06:10 What did you learn from the experience of writing the travel blog, like in terms of creating a community in terms of creating posts that would get reactions and likes and comments and these kinds of things, you're effectively like a social media manager? So yeah, what did you learn about the art of doing that when you're in high school? Liam 06:31 Yeah, I guess it was simple things, learning the simple skills of when people are most engaged on social media, when you're going to get the most engagement and comments and likes and to see maximum results for sponsored posts and stuff like that. And I guess those skills really helped me in also building partnerships, sales, reached out on email and stuff like that went and started navigate Australia, because the partnerships and sales were really how the magazine was making the money, you know, and I built those initial relationships and the skills by starting a travel blog, initially, graphic design, how to build a website, how to email people, as I said, Yeah, Podcast Host 07:11 it's interesting that you mentioned all of those things, because I didn't study marketing. But obviously, I've been working in the marketing industry for a number of years now. And I intending to think that a degree in marketing is becoming less and less useful. I don't really know exactly what they teach in marketing at universities these days. But it seems like there's so much you can learn about social media marketing, partnerships, advertising, these kinds of things, just by doing your own thing is that now a potential future career path, obviously, like you're in entrepreneurship more broadly. But those marketing skills that you've developed, that's probably going to be your go to for the next, you know, however many years that no matter what you create, and no matter where you go in business, by yourself, or working for other companies, whatever it might be, that skill sets going to hold you in good stead. Do you see the potential of that? Liam 08:03 Yeah, I think that everyone needs to learn some art of marketing. I mean, a marketing is reaching out to someone on LinkedIn, if you want to connect with them. Marketing isn't always marketing someone to sell them something. It could be increasing your network, you know, I'm reaching out to someone LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, just to have a chat with them and learn about what they're doing, what their experiences are. A lot of people don't know how to successfully do that, or come across as being a scam message, you know, but if you can do it successfully, I mean, you can meet people at high ranking positions, whether it's like MasterCard, apple, whoever it is, and I think that's probably should be the main focus for a lot of young people. Podcast Host 08:44 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm interested as well in the timeline of how you grow a community from zero to then being like a 30,000 person community to then starting navigate Australia, which is a 50,000 person community. I think a lot of people might say a lot of students might say, like, how long does that even take? Like, how many posts roughly would I have to do to make a community of that size? And how much time does that take all up? Not just in the duration of the posts, but also like, how much time are you putting into this project in any given day or in any given week, obviously, like you're in a pretty privileged position at the point that you were traveling full time so I guess it was just like a part of documenting your journey. But do you have any kind of advice for students in that instance of like how long they need to stick with something like this to start seeing these kind of results? Liam 09:36 I mean, it all just depends on how rapidly growing the industry is how many people are interested in what your target audiences like what customers you have. Then if you were to start writing something on Bitcoin now it probably explode because it's such a massive thing at the moment. If you start writing something on the successes of Ilan Musk, you it would probably explode because people are so fascinated about him at the moment, where if you go back to writing something about loom bands, or writing about fidget spinners, I mean, probably no one's going to read about it because that craze is gone. So it's all about, you've got to be passionate about, you got to know what you're talking about, you probably, if you're young, maybe you're already doing it. And it's just kind of you adding on to what you're already doing in those initial stages. But you've got to know kind of who your audience is, in maybe your you are that audience, and you know, where that audience is located. So for navigate Australia, it was Facebook, a lot of older travelers travel around Australia, and they caravan, and a lot of older people use Facebook. So that was where we got our main audience. However, a lot of young people are starting to travel now. And that's what we got a lot of our younger audience from was Instagram. So there was two elements to I mean, man of posts, I mean, you can post however much you want, Facebook probably posted like once a month, if I'm honest, on the Facebook page of navigate Australia, whereas on Instagram, once a day, yeah, Facebook, you can post in a lot of community groups that will have high engagement. Whereas on Instagram, you've really got to engage with people suppose by commenting liking, because you can't really share posts on Instagram. So yeah, finding where your audience is probably knowing your audience, if it's your first business, because you don't have loads of capital or money behind you to do so much data analysis and research, you don't have the team. So yeah, Podcast Host 11:29 that's good advice. I think it's about knowing where your audience is likely to be. And I was interested actually, to say how you grew your Facebook audience, I tend to think community groups are a fantastic way to grow any kind of audience, if you do find those, as I said, active groups as well, people who are posting, you know, you can see how many posts they're doing in any given day, how many members there are. And you're like, yeah, this is a group that I really want to make an effort in. And really build an audience pretty strong in there, particularly if you are knowing who the kind of membership is, you know, whether they be the parents or whether they be kids, that kind of thing, probably more parents on Facebook these days. Liam 12:04 So it was definitely the community groups. And then with that, you grow your email audience. So then you can market them to go and follow your Instagram. And then you market them back to reading your magazine again, and it's just kind of you try and make it a circular type thing. We started partnering with councils, again, they did a sponsored post in our magazine, they would then post that onto their Facebook page, which would have like 30,000 poles. So then therefore come over to us, we partner with a brand, or to do a giveaway or something like that, it would be spread across the social media channels, the requirements to entry would be like for you to have to share on your Facebook page and tag a few friends. That was another way to promote it. So that was really successful for us. Podcast Host 12:47 Give us an insight into those partnership meetings. So you're calling up like a local council, or you're calling up a brand or whatever it might be. And how does the conversation go? Are you making that call? Or is your mom making that call? Who's sending the email, like talk us through the ins and outs of that? Liam 13:03 Yeah, so it was totally me. I did everything. Graphic Design, partnerships, email, outreach, everything. And the way it went was in the whole time that we had Australia was operating, I probably spoke to five people on the phone, I didn't even have to pick up the phone. That's not even something to be worried about. A lot of people don't actually want to speak on the phone these days. It's just all over email, Facebook Messenger Instagram, people just kind of bothered, you know, they like the instantaneous ability to just message. So I'll just outreach to all these brands councils via email with a scripted message. And if I replied, Well, then it would go from there. If they didn't reply, I would leave it for say 10 days, chase it up. They didn't reply from there, maybe leave for a couple of months and then chase it up again. So yeah, it was all Most of it was by email, they'd let you know, straight away if they were interested or not. Let them know the prices, let them know the outreach of their kind of sponsorship within the magazine would be and yeah, from that, Podcast Host 14:02 did anybody advise you to contact councils because I wouldn't have thought of that. If I was a student driving around Australia, I wouldn't have thought about reaching out to councils, I would have been someone who had to say, hey, counselors have bit of money. If you you know, send them an email, you might be able to get 500 700 bucks or whatever it might be to do a post or a sponsored post about that. Like how did you even figure out to contact these kind of people? Liam 14:26 Yeah, no, that was a huge mistake. So I didn't contact any counselors for the first 910 months of operating this magazine. And in the end, they were really struggling to get sponsorship within the magazine because smaller companies and brands were no one was traveling. So this was at the start of COVID. No one was traveling brands had run out of marketing budgets, and interstate travel was only allowed. So I thought okay, I'm going to reach out to all these councils in Australia. Every single Council in Australia I sent an email to their admin front desk. Now, I said, Who's the best person to contact in regards to a travel marketing inquiry, I probably got a response from 80% of them. And yeah, loads and loads and loads of councils wanting to be a part of the very next addition. So now that I look back on it, I wish I had built these partnerships from the very start. And it's a perfect example of not knowing exactly where your customers may be from the very start. Yeah, I like your tactic. Actually, by sending a front desk email, just add me an email with a who is the best person to contact, you don't give them all the information in the first email, you don't bore them with like four or five paragraphs of crap, and they're not going to read, you know, yeah. And then they actually reply because they interested in what they could help you with. Podcast Host 15:42 Yeah, cuz you're not trying to pitch the front desk, you're not trying to pitch the admin person, you're trying to pitch the marketing budget person, right. And at this early stage, you're just trying to get the details of who that person actually is. Um, so that's a very good tip for students. I think if you're looking to do this kind of thing, don't go around trying to pitch the front desk, you know, ask who you're trying to pitch to first. And then Liam 16:05 that's with everything, you know, like, if you want to speak to someone at Microsoft, that's heading up there. People on cultural you want to speak to someone that's in the innovation department, don't give the pitch to the front desk person or the admin officer, you know, they're not going to be interested in not going to reply because their brains just too full of Oh, my God, who do I contact? So yeah, just ask who's the best person to contact in regards to whatever inquiry at whatever company a I find that to be the most successful way of Podcast Host 16:32 reaching out to people? And in that scripted message, would you include your age? No, really, I thought that would have been an interesting tactic to kind of say, hey, look, yeah, I'm a student, or I'm a high schooler or something like that, to kind of add that little bit more interest or you lifted out entirely, Liam 16:48 I left it out entirely, because I didn't want to come across as just another kid trying to get something make the magazine was pretty established at this stage didn't really need to prove myself to councils like they would have advertised or not, didn't really care about my age. So now I don't I don't include an outreach. I mean, have a LinkedIn profile people look you up on LinkedIn if they've got interested, and I included in my LinkedIn bio there. Podcast Host 17:15 Alright, that's interesting. I do respect that once you've got the established brand, you just lead with that and not the fact needed to kind of give me the fact that you might be a student or a high schooler. Liam 17:25 Yeah, I didn't include my age anywhere in email. So I just think that comes across as wanting something or a lot of people think that it's just another kid, I probably can't be bothered getting back to them. Or like, you don't know what people are thinking. Podcast Host 17:38 Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, that's interesting. All right. Well, you've done navigate Australia, you firmly on the path to entrepreneurship and talk us through what were your next steps after navigate Australia? Liam 17:51 Yeah, multiple next steps. So I went and studied the Bri deployments, business, marketing and communications. And I started working on a startup called quantify, which was simplifying the way podcasts were monetized by connecting podcast creators with brands. And this is the perfect example of something that didn't fail, that it didn't pass validation. And this is where a lot of people mess up is that they fall in love with their product idea, or they fall in love with the possibilities that could bring and quantify was just too early to the podcasting market. In terms of advertising on podcast, there's just no money in it still. So yeah, digital Id really quickly. And now I'm working on instant Checkout, which is simplifying the way people I like simplifying stuff. So simplifying the way people are checkout online, basically creating an instant checkout experience. So consumers can check out from the product page, Podcast Host 18:47 what made you choose that particular thing to simplify? Because it's a problem that I think there's a couple other organizations or entrepreneurs trying to tackle that particular issue that what made you choose that and made you confident that that was your next vehicle to take towards entrepreneurship? Liam 19:03 Yeah, so again, validation, talking to talking to your customers, seeing if it's something that actually use. So for us, it was talking to small, middle, large brands, or e commerce brands, simply seeing if they would integrate this technology onto their website, we had interest. So it went from there started speaking with people at MasterCard, speaking of people at large companies like square and stripe, and then further validating, looking at competitors, seeing what they're doing, seeing what we can do to be better developing strategies to see if it's something that would actually work. And then that's just the start. So that's all just part of the validation. Now it actually comes down to building a product, building a team building the technology that's going to create revenue. So going back to the the initial stages of how I came up with the idea or how I knew it was something to move forward with. Again, it's very hard to come up with something that's totally really unique these days. So I was looking at companies like PayPal, a company in the US called bolt, and companies like these, that were somewhat simplifying the checkout, but still not simplifying it enough. And I thought that there's possibility here. So that's when I started researching, looking into the market a lot more speaking to people in the payments and checkout space. I'm noticing competitors overseas, and really noticing that it's a market that is quite new, and something to tap into early. Podcast Host 20:34 Right, right, right. Well, did you have a moment though, where you were going through a checkout yourself, for instance, and you had to navigate away from the page that you're on to that separate checkout page and the cart and all the rest of it? And you have a moment where you're like, this is stupid? How is this taking so long? Surely there is an easier way to do this. And then you went and looked at PayPal and Bolton, these kinds of things? Or was it the other way around? Where you were like, hey, what kind of cool companies are in this space? What kind of skill set Do I have, what kind of interest Do I have, and then try and figure it out from there. Liam 21:06 First, I had problems as a consumer, and that was getting to the checkout page in two different instances. One was, there was like 15 buttons there. If we try to click did pay after pay all these ones PayPal, that you can check out with. So that was one problem just way too cluttered for the consumer. Um, the other problem was the fact that it wasn't letting me check out because I'd already had an account on this merchants website, because I bought an item before, but I couldn't remember my password. And therefore I couldn't check out. So a lot of these ecommerce sites just make it really hard for their customers to buy. Like, what merchant wants to make it hard for someone to spend money on their website. Yeah. So that's where the idea came from. Podcast Host 21:51 I love that that's a very real instance, I think I've actually done the same thing where it's like, you need to log in, like, we've noticed that your email is similar to an email. It's like, why is this thing taking me so long to try? And Liam 22:06 why is it so hard to spend money? Podcast Host 22:08 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It shouldn't be at all. No, that's really cool. So at that point, I'm thinking that you've probably got two thoughts in mind, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but one of them is, okay, here's the problem. What kind of knowledge gap is there towards the solution? Like, what do I need to figure out to make a solution happen? And the other thing would be, what is this going to cost to start making this happen? Like, do I have the capital behind me to turn this idea into reality? Are those the typical two things you come up against? And how do you solve them? Liam 22:42 I'm Initially, I probably wouldn't even think about the money necessarily, or the capital, how you want to put it, it's a challenge for every business, whether you have revenue or not. Initially, you need to know exactly how you're going to solve this. So we had like, I have noticed that the checkout experience is bulky time consuming to hassle merchants who want to increase their sales merchants have a really big problem of abandoned carts, they lose a lot of money per year to abandon carts. So then it came down to Okay, how am I going to fix this? How am I going to solve this problem. And the solution I came up with was allowing consumers to checkout instantly. So no need to add the item to your cart, no need to go to your cart, no need to fill out all the pages and pages of information. You don't even have to fill out your credit card information. It's all gone instantly. So first thinking of the solution, obviously, you as the founder need to know what you're going to do. You need to drive the vision, drive the strategy drive the product, because at the end of the day, you someone has to know what that core product is. And I guess that's how you start a company, you know, you've got to have a problem. And what's the solution? And then it came off, okay, how are we going to build this, my skill set is very in the business side of things like partnerships, sales, growth, strategy, all this type of thing. I need someone in the engineering side, the technical side, and that's something that we're still struggling on now. So in terms of building the product, that's a massive focus for us. Now, actually, developing the product is just as hard though, you need to not only think of the what you're going to build in your mind, maybe jot some things down on paper, look at competitors look at current things in the market in this type of thing. Namely, to actually design it, you need to design it so you can show it to potential merchants or your customers to see if it's something that actually use because there's no point spending potentially a million dollars on something and it's crickets when you actually go to lunch, no one's gonna use it. So yeah, really figuring out product, really figuring out what your potential team, you need, a way your skill set lays. who your customers are, what problem you're solving, how you solving it. Yeah, Podcast Host 24:50 yeah. So I think that's an interesting one where it's like you kind of dream up the idea and the concept, but in terms of the actual building of it, and the back end of it. That's a whole new kettle of fish, there could be the issue where what you dream up isn't possible, have you verified that it is actually possible to do all this instantly. Liam 25:12 I wouldn't say anything's not possible. If you thought of the idea, I would say probably a lot of other people thought of the idea of simplifying checkout isn't a new idea. It's just a way that we're doing it is new. So finding the skills and people to guide you potentially help you potentially even be part of the company to build it is a strong point that you as the founder, or you, as the product kind of visionary need to think of a new or unique solution of how you're going to achieve what your thoughts are. Podcast Host 25:40 Yeah, fair enough. 25:41 Now, Podcast Host 25:41 one thing I am interested in is, what are the logistics of setting up a company. So if you're a high school student, and you need to, I guess, like legally register a business name, you need to like register a domain name, you need to do all these kinds of ins and outs that are boring, but essential? Is there anything that surprised you along the way, or we were like, geez, there's more paperwork here than I thought would be necessary to start a business. Liam 26:07 It sounds more complicated than it is. And usually, it's very easy, you just register a business name, actually, you don't even need to register it to begin with, if you don't want to just kind of get out there. There's no again, no point spending money on something that's not going to work. So just come up with some brand name, make a logo up, make a explanation video, or a PowerPoint of how you're going to solve this problem and just go out there and start talking to your customers talking to people in the industry. I mean, for me, I wanted to do something in the payments, ecommerce checkout space. So I started speaking to people already in that space, talking to founders already in that space. At this stage, we hadn't even registered the company to name you have a domain name, didn't even have an email address with that company. I mean, I'd already built the connections. So had introductions. So that was definitely beneficial for me. However, it is possible for anyone to just reach out to people on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is probably the best resource, but then Okay, you validated your product, you want to go forward? Well, then you just register a business name, build maybe a simple website, obviously, need an email address, that's somewhat business, like with your business name in it, maybe register some social medias, try and get the handles, just figure it all out as you go, because you will figure it out. I mean, there's eventually documents you need, like MBAs, nondisclosure agreements, but it'll all come you'll figure it out as you go. Podcast Host 27:28 Yeah, well, I like that idea that you don't need to have everything sorted before you start taking it to market. And I think that's a lot of what students probably think entrepreneurship is, that's like, I've got a website, and I'm going to have an Instagram, remember this, because if I'm going to take it to someone, I want them to be able to say that were legit. And the way that we're going to be seen as legit is we're going to have the email and the social media and this and this and this, but really, like, you're going to have the logo, the name, and like an explanation, video, PowerPoint, and that is the tools that you need to start doing your validation, right, like a LinkedIn profile, hit a logo and a name and how we're solving this kind of problem. And then after that, you can start worrying about the social media accounts and the website and, you know, registering the business name that kind of do it Liam 28:18 as you go. But you don't need to build all at once. I mean, you can do it all at once if you want to. But again, it all costs money. And it might Podcast Host 28:25 not even be validated. Right? Like, yeah, you might you might start taking it to market and then people like, Oh, actually, no, I don't want that. And you didn't spend all this time making all these social media channels and stuff. And yeah, no one really wants what you've got. Yeah. So yeah, definitely a good lesson there for potential entrepreneurs, has building these businesses giving you the opportunity to meet a lot of other young entrepreneurs along the way. Liam 28:49 I'm not necessarily I probably know a lot more adults in the business world. However, I do know a fair few young people around the country. And they're working on things, quite exciting things, either sneaking it in school hours or on the train home, on the bus home, on the weekends, like wherever they have some spare time. So yeah, there's definitely a lot. Podcast Host 29:10 And do you think in terms of schooling and entrepreneurship? Do you think the two can coexist? Do you think that school can make better entrepreneurs? Liam 29:22 Um, I think that if someone wants to be an entrepreneur, they kind of automatically are, obviously, there's the education behind it, you need to have a correct mindset, things like this. However, like, if you're really passionate about building something, you'll just go and build it. If you're really passionate about the idea that you have, you'll just go and achieve it. You don't need someone to tell you what an amazing job you're doing, because a lot of people tell you that it's not possible, or that the idea sucks. So again, just starts with the founder starts with the person of having the mindset having the vision, having the kind of mentality around wanting to achieve something, and I don't Think that say you as a person, as a teacher can go and say, Oh, you've got to start a, you've got to go and start a travel blog, you know? Podcast Host 30:08 Yeah, exactly. But do you feel like there's any pressure on students to stay students, you know, like to kind of stay in that mode of study, do exams, get good scores, go to uni, and then do the entrepreneurship thing. I think that's like, generally, that seems to be the overriding social pressure is to stay in that pretty narrow way of thinking. I mean, like a lot of schools have entrepreneurship programs. But at the same time, like, it is with the view that the student will end up finishing school and getting a good score, because that's typically what schools use, in their marketing, like of a school is going to market, the success of the school, it's going to be the success of the students in the scores they get, and the universities they get into and those kinds of things. It's a bit hard to market, even a successful entrepreneur, because it's just not the norm. And like, not many parents are sending their kid to school for them to start a business, if you know what I mean. Liam 31:07 Yeah, it's a hard one, because every student or kid wants to do something differently. Again, I really think that if a student wants to achieve something, they'll just go and achieve it. Obviously, you need the support, say your family, maybe a friend to teachers, and the kind of the material or advice around whatever you're doing, that also helps. But if you're again, if you're really passionate about it, you just go and find these people to give you advice give you support, I mean for schools is probably hard to achieve. But I think there's definitely possibilities there. And there's a lot lots of external providers and programs now that are coming into schools to try and help with this. I think it's an important thing for everyone to have some type of entrepreneurship or innovation in their mindset, whether they go and work for themselves, start a company or work for someone else. Because a lot of companies are chasing young people, even older people to innovate new product ideas, innovate new strategies lead a successful team inside a company. And this comes from innovative people, you know, Podcast Host 32:11 yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, just on that support side of things as well, who has been your support network, during this whole period, I'm going to guess your family's been really supportive of your ideas. And you kind of stepping into the entrepreneur entrepreneurship side of things a little bit more. But has there been anybody outside of that? That's kind of said, hey, yeah, Liam, go for it. Like, this is a great idea. And you know, I'll try and introduce you to people these kinds of things. Liam 32:37 Oh, yeah, for sure. I'm probably known for having one of the biggest networks here in Brisbane, for my age, I do know quite a few people. And they've definitely been very supportive, which I'm very thankful for, like family. Yes. However, like other founders have been very supportive. Obviously, you build like that core network of people that you're regularly in touch with. And then knowing a whole heap of other people that you can go out and having a problem with some legal stuff may or just get in touch with this founder of this founder and just ask for their advice. Mom having some trouble with my email marketing campaign. No one's opening it, no one's reading it. Maybe I'll just get in touch with Sally over at this marketing company. I've spoken to her before, you know. So I think that's really important to build your network, probably one of the most important things actually. But for me, yeah, just that cool group of people that are that are other founders are the people in in the industry. I mean, some of these people include people that work at MasterCard, stripe square, these are and then other founders that either have a small startup, large company. Yeah, it all varies. Podcast Host 33:44 Yeah. And I'm going to guess a lot of those connections are made through LinkedIn as well, as you said, that's a really big helping hand for you. Yeah, Liam 33:49 for sure. Yeah, LinkedIn is, if you didn't know on LinkedIn, and you're in business, you're probably making a very big mistake Podcast Host 33:55 here. fair to say, I mean, I'm a fan of LinkedIn as well. And obviously, that's where we connected. I also saw you on Twitter posting a lot as well. Which leads me to ask if students wanted to follow along with your journey. How best could they do that? Would that be through LinkedIn or Twitter or bow? Liam 34:09 Probably LinkedIn? Yeah, I actually don't post on social media that much. I probably engage more on LinkedIn, just because I connect with a lot of people over there. You know, on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever, Podcast Host 34:22 right? Well, I will put your LinkedIn in the show notes so people can hopefully connect with you if they're already on the platform. If not, hopefully, that's a further encouragement to get on LinkedIn. And is there any final advice you would give to our listeners before we depart? Um, Liam 34:38 I think just finding something that you really, really passionate about is the key. Not just starting something that someone else is having success with or just starting another social media account or whatever it is just because someone else is having success. Find something that you want to do you want to achieve in something that you've done? A great skill to you know, everyone's unique in what they bring. Yeah, so Podcast Host 35:04 do something that you want to do. I'm going to challenge you on that before we go. Because I've been taught talking to some students about passion, because obviously, like, a lot of students, they get given the advice to follow something that they're passionate about do something they're passionate about. But you know, if you're a high school student who is good at math and good at English, but you don't necessarily have like that external passion, that thing that kind of wakes you up in the middle of the night and makes you scribble down some ideas and these kinds of things, it can be a little bit difficult to know where to start. And I always say to students passion is something that comes after a considerable amount of time invested in a particular interest or curiosity, you know, you could have been doing your travel blogging, for instance. And then after you start seeing the engagement, and you start, you're trying to figure out like, the thing that you're interested in is how do I create more engagement on my platform, like the travel blogging is the vehicle for that, but then, like, the thing that you're most interested in is creating engagement, for instance, and then you kind of go down that rabbit hole, and then all of a sudden, you're super interested or passionate about digital marketing or social media marketing, for instance. So in terms of those students who may not have that passion as such at this stage, what advice would you give to them? Liam 36:20 Yeah, it's a hard one. I think that I really struggled initially. And what did I want to do outside of the travel magazine, it took me a long time to come up with the idea for Spotify, the podcast, advertising type model, and then it takes took me a long time to actually come up with the idea for instant checkout. I mean, it was originally named quick Checkout, it's named instant checkout. Now, there's been loads of changes. I don't know. I think just figure it out. Again, just figure it as you go. Um, it's a hard one. Because if you don't know what you want to do, you don't know what you want to do. And then you kind of get overwhelmed in trying to find something that you want to do. But you still don't know what you want to do, you know? Yeah, no, no, Podcast Host 37:00 I think that's a fair enough answer, though, that like, it's kind of giving yourself permission or giving yourself time to figure out what your passion is. And that, you know, I said, I tend to say to students that it might not necessarily arrive overnight, like you might have the experience of the checkout. And that's like, the start of something, right? That's like the the interest or the Curiosity factor, like, Hey, this is weird. This is wrong. Like, if I was a merchant in this situation, like, I'd be really annoyed. And then like, you follow down that rabbit hole a little bit more and be like, I wonder if other people are having this issue. I wonder if other people are working at solving this? Yeah. Liam 37:35 And then it starts, like, snowball, and after a while, you look at competitors, even like, look at the buy now. Like pay later space. It's such a phrase at the moment, the two biggest players are afterpay and zippay. However, a company recently came along called line pay in their white labeling exactly what these guys do, and have been a massive hit. So yeah, it's don't always let your competitors success, either. Notice a space that's going crazy, and see if you can add something different or unique to it. Podcast Host 38:08 Absolutely. Well, Liam, it's been awesome having you on the top of the class podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your insights into instant Checkout, navigate Australia, your travel booking experience, and I hope students get in touch with you on LinkedIn, and learn a little bit more about your story.

#6 College Tips - The Future of US Sport Scholarships with Harvard Graduate, Bryan Moore

🗓 MAR 10, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Tips. In today's episode, Harvard graduate and Crimson Education strategist Bryan Moore, talks about us sports scholarships, we chat about the impact of COVID-19 on college sports, what prospective student athletes can do to improve their candidacy, and how academic performance can be more important than many students need. Let's chat with Bryan Moore. Hi, Bryan. Welcome to College Tips. It's fantastic to have you on today. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Bryan Moore 00:46 Yeah. Great to see you, Alex. So I went to Harvard and played on the lacrosse team. And while I was there, I was studying economics and psychology. So excited to talk a little bit about sports today. Podcast Host 00:59 Yeah, absolutely. And since then, you've been doing a fair bit of stuff at crimson. What's your current role at Crimson? Bryan Moore 01:04 Yeah, so I am a senior strategist and Strategy Team Lead. So I manage a team of traders that work with a lot of students, particularly based in China. Podcast Host 01:14 Fantastic, and you even lived a little while there. And now you're based in the US again, and you've survived COVID, which is great to say. And we can talk about sports, because I know that some sports have not survived COVID, what has been the state of play or not play as the case may be for sports scholarships and sports in general? In the US post COVID. Bryan Moore 01:37 Yeah, it has been pretty chaotic for a lot of student athletes and schools as well, a lot of teams getting canceled or having their team shut down. Obviously, you know, the debates about whether or not it's safe to play has been both an issue within schools and also in sort of the political sphere. You know, we've seen, you know, sports, like the NFL successfully have a full season, but you know, with a lot of risk to the to the player. So it's been challenging on a lot of dimensions so far in the past year. Podcast Host 02:04 And is there any sports in particular, or any schools in particular, whether it be the East Coast, West Coast, north south of the US that have been more affected than others? Bryan Moore 02:15 Yeah, so since COVID, obviously affected all parts of the US, I don't think there was a region that avoided anything. But we've saw, we saw mostly, you know, teams struggle to have seasons, and a lot of the sports that don't generate much or any revenue for school. So sports like tennis, golf, some soccer teams, and cross country and track have been particularly hit. But it has affected a lot of teams. And depending on the leagues that schools are playing, and we've seen some leagues choose to have seasons, and others choose to not do that. So it's been very fragmented throughout the last year. Podcast Host 02:51 Does it affect students who are already at college in terms of like their future at the at the college? Or they because they've got in for previous years or whatever? Like they're set no matter what? or could they potentially have their scholarship funding cut, because their team has been cut? Bryan Moore 03:08 Absolutely. So if your team is cut, or if you are cut from the team, in normal circumstances, you can lose your scholarship, if you if you're lucky enough to have one. So that is that that's definitely been a big source of concern for a lot of student athletes over this past year. Podcast Host 03:24 So what was the prospects of student athletes during this admission round? Was it notably different in terms of like, harder to get into a lot of places, but it was more competitive? Bryan Moore 03:36 I think we didn't necessarily see a ton of change in how competitive it was. Mostly because of how much uncertainty there was, throughout this whole last year, people didn't know what to expect. So most schools and most coaches sort of approached the process in a similar way. And then, but once we got to the actual application process and final decisions, it was it was definitely quite challenging for for a lot of students. You know, I had a student who was interested in going to a school and they cut that team, he was a rower from Australia. And so that was, you know, pretty disruptive. But, you know, I also had some success as well, with some of my athletes pursuing even the same sport even within rowing. You know, we saw some success. So I think the uncertainty was the was the hardest part for both for schools for players and for coaches over the past year. Podcast Host 04:24 And is there any sport that is like, above the cuts, I guess, you said, your revenue generating ones made basketball and football, they're like safe no matter what pretty much, is that correct? Bryan Moore 04:36 Yeah, it's interesting, you know, definitely they have been spared. And they've been the sports that have had the most games I think across you know, all divisions and all different conferences that have basketball and football. What's particularly interesting is that, you know, within American football in particular, a lot of these teams lose money. So even though they may generate revenue, they're considered a revenue sport. They still lose money for the school. And what I, what I find interesting about that is just the level to which these schools are feeling the need to invest in a robust athletic department to attract students to come, even non athletes to come to the school to have a more exciting or interesting campus atmosphere. So the effects of how sports teams can really change the whole environment for a school, it's clear that sports aren't going anywhere, even sports that may lose money, which is, I think, interesting thinking in the long term. Podcast Host 05:30 I've heard though, that Dartmouth is a rather unusual case, what exactly happened to Dartmouth to the sporting teams? Bryan Moore 05:37 So a quick story is that the school had decided that they were going to cut several teams using the excuse that because of COVID, there were budget shortfalls and that they needed to manage that budget. For a school like Dartmouth, you know, budget considerations usually aren't a problem. There's plenty of endowment, they can always find donors to pay for sports teams. So in the very beginning, you know, that wasn't, didn't seem to be the case, or the thing, the main decision that was driving and over time, it began to come out that there's been a lot of pressure, particularly at the most academic schools, places like Dartmouth to find a new center for the balance between academics and sports at schools. And so I think that a number of people used COVID, as an opportunity to rebalance that equation in the favor of the academics and the voices of academics at Dartmouth. And so when the shuffles sort of played out, we've seen those teams get reinstated, which has been very disruptive, that disruption has been, I think, epitomizes this past year in terms of the level of uncertainty and how decisions can be made, but then quickly turned around. But hopefully things will settle down there and get back to normal soon. Podcast Host 06:48 Right. Right. Okay, fair enough. And also, I want to know about the divisions and how they were affected, whether you know, your div one schools, were still very committed to going with the sporting teams and whatnot. But you div three, etc, perhaps, as you said, with the case of Dartmouth kind of saw that balance between academics and sport and was like this is a chance to kind of push things more to the academic side of things. So is there any difference in the divisions for universities and how they've been kind of coping with this and changing the arrangement of the sport? Bryan Moore 07:19 Sure, so one of the key differences between division one, Division Two and Division Three is that division one and two have scholarships or can offer scholarships, if they choose to do so, whereas Division Three is not able to do so. So that changes the budget pretty considerably for the different schools, what we've seen generally is essentially within division three schools a pause, so we're not going to make any decisions, we're not going to hire new coaches, we're not going to make too many new commitments to new athletes. And at the same time, we saw quite a lot of students taking gap years, so taking time away from school, to either work or just not study during an online learning environment. And so I think we sort of saw a freeze on most activity within division three. And so as COVID is lifted, you know, things will start to heat up. And so I think that that pause has not necessarily been reflected in other sports in another divisions where things are a bit more competitive, and the focus on winning is, is a lot higher. So a division three school can generally get away in most cases with skipping a recruitment class, or not bringing in the top athletic talent, because, you know, that's just not their number one priority. Whereas, you know, I think that within certain within money sports, and within most of division one, I think there's still been the continued pressure to find the athletes to bring into the school. But that still is been full of uncertainty this whole this whole time. And I think what we'll see is rosters that are pretty full, and perhaps over the next couple of years, you know, some cut back in terms of the number of scholarships available for certain sports in particular, as schools try to manage their budgets and, and manage the size of the team since that there are caps on those. Podcast Host 09:10 Yeah, I was going to ask the kind of crystal ball question, what do you see happening in the future? And, as I guess, COVID restrictions start to slowly lift across the US whether teams would ever get back to that full kind of like, what's crazy college campus type of vibe that, you know, when over here in Australia, when I look at the US and colleges, I think like sport crazy for a lot of them, which is, which is awesome. But do you think we'll ever get back to that kind of level? Bryan Moore 09:37 You know, it's hard to even imagine, you know, getting a crowd of 1000s of people and screaming very loudly, you know, right now, but I do think that, you know, in the long term, we're going to get back to some sense of normalcy, and we'll have pretty close to what we've experienced in the past. I think in terms of the long term changes, I don't think things will stay the same, but I think Those issues are more around collective bargaining energy that's existed in past years anti trust considerations against the NCAA, some of the rules have been changes around amateurism that happened in the last year in allowing players to actually make money off of their name. I think some of those changes are likely to accelerate that we've seen in you know, in other areas of other industries and other parts of the world where COVID is sort of accelerated movement that we've seen, I think those things are likely to happen. And so that may have some changes to how sports exists in the United States. But I don't think that we'll be missing out on you know, the the rowdy games that that we've all come to love. Podcast Host 10:39 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm also interested in the impacts of the LSAT, the dropping of required exams, essentially, for students across the board. Is that still applying to athletes? Do they not have to sit the SAT anymore as well? Bryan Moore 10:54 Yeah, so that was actually quite interesting. We did see, you know, a lot of requirements be lifted for for a lot of schools across the US. Of course, there were some exceptions to that. And we are expecting that this year, we will continue to see some version of reduced requirements for testing. What was interesting, though, was schools that particularly care a lot about academic so schools within the Ivy's in particular, we did see requirements around testing, despite the fact that you didn't have an admissions requirement to to have an SAE score, for example, in order to be recruitable athlete you did. So in actually some cases, it was pretty much the same, and that they expected a lot of athletes to have already taken those tests. And that makes some sense, because within the Ivy's, you have to beat certain academic requirements in order to be a recruitable athlete. And the department as a whole needs to have on a relative basis compared to the other students in the school have to be within a certain band. And so in order to meet those Ivy League requirements, they did keep testing. So we'll see, I think how they're able to deal with, I think, a broad momentum towards fewer testing requirements. But I would expect to see that persist in the short and probably in the medium term as well. Podcast Host 12:12 Right? So basically, across the board, no matter which University you're applying to, if you're an athlete, you still have to sit some form of SAT, is that correct? Bryan Moore 12:20 I would say yes, I think that there will be certain there will certainly be exceptions to that. But but it helps to expand your opportunities, if you're able to get a really good test score, something that, you know, sticks out, that's definitely an advantage. In addition to that sports scholarships make up, you know, obviously, that's the thing that gets all the attention. But many athletes get a considerable amount of their your scholarship money actually based on their academic scholarship. So you can have both an athletic and an academic scholarship. In many cases, the academic scholarships actually worth more than your athletic scholarship. So having really strong test scores, having really strong grades in your school, these will be things that will make you both more recruitable for all schools, and will also give you the opportunity to have more money is one more thing on on having access to that academic money is that makes you much more attractive to coaches, even for schools that are not in a top 50. You know, US News and World Report rankings. The reason for this is, it's much easier for coaches to get access to that academic money, because that's not coming out of a preset amount of cash that they have available to them. Right. So you know, if you're able to get access to some of that academic money, that can free up additional sports specific money that the coach can then give to somebody else. So makes you a very attractive recruit if you're able to bring both the sport and the academic side? Podcast Host 13:44 Yeah, well, I was going to ask in the situation of say, like a year 10 student here in Australia, like 1516 years old, who is a gifted athlete at say, a couple of different sports, there was always one of those kids in any school, right? You know, like those man child's that kind of developed early and whatnot. I mean, I got to 167 centimeters and stuff growing for people in the US that's basically not very tall. And so for the students in that situation, who are saying, yep, you know, a US college, I want that to be my future. How could they strengthen their candidacy over the final years of their high school? Should they be focusing more on the academics? Should they be focusing more on a particular sport that is perhaps recruitable at a higher percentage rate? Like? Should they focus on other extracurriculars that are related to their sport, but might be more community focused, for instance, like what can athletes in that kind of 15 to 16 age bracket, who haven't yet got a letter from a university? Because I know some universities do reach out quite early these days, but who haven't heard from university yet? What could they be doing to kind of tailor their application in those last couple of years ago? Bryan Moore 14:53 Sure. So I think to generalize things first and then and then I guess we can talk in the specifics, but No, I think the first thing to understand or to ask yourself, if you're a student, or something that I might ask you, if I were to talk to you as a student, is, what is it really that you're looking for? For me when I was in high school, I had this vision for having this even split between academics and athletics. And I wanted to really maximize both of those things at the same time. And so that gave me a very clear sense and gave me some specific universities to target, you know, my first list of schools that I was interested in, you know, it was like, 35 schools long. So I had a very clear sense of exactly what I was looking to do in 35, schools is quite a bit, but it gave me some place to start. So I think asking yourself, you know, what are those priorities for you, since those will be different, some students really care about the athletic experience, and that's the only reason that they want to go, maybe they want to go pro in their sport, or something like that. Other students, you know, they want to leverage their athletic talent to get into a really good school, that's quite different. Some students are a bit more in between. So understanding that question, I think is, is quite important. And then you can essentially apply that same logic to other areas of your life. You know, while even though I was an athlete and went the recruitment route myself, you know, there were plenty of other things that I was very heavily involved in, a lot of the things that I loved, the most were sport related, I was coaching, I was mentoring and doing a variety of different things within my sport. But you know, I had access to that I had the right network of people around me to get access to those kinds of opportunities to involve myself different ways. So I'd be thinking about opportunities like that. So you know, we shouldn't be thinking, Okay, well, the only thing I need to do is play my sport, you know, we do need to have some breadth and some variety, an easy place to start is, who are the people that I know? What are the other opportunities within my sport, that aren't necessarily playing, that I could get involved in? And that can start to open up new opportunities and new interests of yours as well. Podcast Host 16:59 Right, fantastic. And then, of course, the academic side of things like you should still kind of study for that SAT, right? Bryan Moore 17:05 Absolutely. There's really nothing better for coaches than to know right off the bat, that they're not going to have any challenge with admissions with you and your candidacy. If you can take that off their mind and have them feel very confident that you are going to be a really good fit for them, then that's a huge sigh of relief that they can feel doesn't really matter what level you're targeting. If you're targeting the very most academic schools, it's just as important to give coaches that comfort that you will be able to handle the academics of whatever school you're targeting. Otherwise, they're not going to waste waste their time. There's too many other great hardworking athletes out there that want that spot, too. And so they need to prioritize. And if you've got the academics, it makes it that much easier on them. Podcast Host 17:46 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm interested also, in your role a little bit more specifically, in terms of helping prospective student athletes, what kind of problems or pain points are you typically solving throughout the recruitment process, and even you know, slightly before that, for students who are aiming to go to the US? Bryan Moore 18:03 Sure. So I guess I've seen a variety of different cases from students who, you know, have just picked up a new sport and are just beginning to realize that they really love it. And deciding through that whole process that they do want to go for, go to be recruited. One of my students this past year was that case, he became a rower, had never done that before. And just this past year, was admitted into Columbia, which was an amazing result for him, and so was able to, you know, hit all of his his goals for both his burgeoning love of his sport and also his academic passions. So I think, you know, I've seen those kinds of cases. And I've seen students who are very late in the process, who don't understand how to navigate it, but you know, that they want to, you know, that they have this goal of playing sports at a higher level. So I think it really, there's, there's quite a lot of variety. Generally speaking, a lot of my students have been based outside of the United States. So the challenges that they tend to face are having to do with you know, the physical distance, the fact that a lot of coaches aren't able to watch them in person play. That's that's a big challenge. And then I think just the the communication and with how I communicate, and when do I communicate, I think are big challenges for students. It can be really intimidating talking to these people who you perhaps idolize or, or want to have them respect you and think that you are valuable to them. That can be pretty challenging, regardless of whether you're in the States or abroad. I think navigating those those uncertainties and identifying what schools I should be targeting in my recruitment process those I guess the big questions that I tend to see a lot. Podcast Host 19:40 Yeah, because it is really weird for student athletes, I guess because they are the as I understand it, the only people through the college admissions process who pretty much directly communicating with the gatekeeper on the other side, right that if they're in communication with the coach, and the coach is either going to give them a yay or nay like that can be the gate. able to then get into college and even to get a scholarship or not. Whereas the majority of students are doing majority of their communication through their personal statement or their essay. That must be a very, very delicate process when you are picking when and what to say to any number of coaches. And I know that I think I heard that Tessa, who's one of the other sports strategists at crimson, she said, like, never tell someone, like do a coach, because it just shows that you've probably templated an email and you're spamming it out to a whole lot of people if you're not personalizing it. Is it that kind of nitpicky, generally speaking? Bryan Moore 20:34 Absolutely. The coach that I eventually played for his last name was logik. And so that was always a really tough one to try to spell. And I had to double check it three or four times, because that was that was always scary to send those emails. But yeah, absolutely. You know, particularly when you're, you know, let's say, your 10th grade dine, you know, students, you've never really sent emails or serious emails before to people, you know, that can be pretty intimidating. And so knowing whether I'm saying the right thing, if I'm saying enough, if I'm saying too much, I think that's always a concern. Generally speaking, most of my students don't say enough. And so you know, we have to encourage them to communicate more proactively, and communicate more than just, you know, sports related updates, as coaches want to see whole people, people that will bring, you know, a lot of different dimensions to the team on a both an athletic and also a personality basis, having a interesting group of teammates is a recruiting tool for coaches. So you know, if you can have more interesting, more thoughtful, more, better athletes on your team that's gonna make you a more attractive for future students to come to as well. So being the full picture of the full student in this process is, is important. And finding ways to communicate that whether it's via zoom or you know, via email can be pretty challenging. Podcast Host 21:51 And I also have the question of when students should start this process, because I know that that's often bandied around, and parents are like, my child is only like, 1415. They love their sport, but we're not quite sure whether they're going to continue with it in the next couple of years as academics start ramping up at school. What are your general views on like the age to start thinking about or not just thinking about but possibly taking action into the college recruitment process? Bryan Moore 22:17 Sure. So I grew up around a lot of people who were thinking about this, my high school was known for having a lot of student athletes going to phenomenal schools, you know, I have friends who are in the NFL. So pretty, pretty strong school, and a lot of people around me wanted to go through this process. So I was lucky in the sense that I had, I had that awareness around me. And I think that that's probably what's lacking most or why people start too late, is that they lack the awareness of what the process might look like. And so the people around them aren't thinking about it aren't talking about it, they therefore think Well, okay, I guess I don't have to think about it either. So I would definitely say that it tends to be the case that people start too late. Obviously, you know, there's definitely opportunities to start too early, right? When you're, you know, still in elementary school, that's too early to be, you know, focusing on this. But now, once you, I think, are taking ownership of your own athletic development, you know, you're the one that's you know, going to the gym, you're getting the extra reps in practice, you're the one who really wants that. And you've decided that you're going to put that level of effort in, I think, at that point, you can be thinking about college for me what that Mark was around eighth grade or a year nine. So that's when I realized, and that's actually when I made my first school list was around that time to to know that I had some goals, and I wanted to start working towards them from there, then it's just surrounding yourself with great people, great coaches, and a plan to eventually get seen, but that stuff takes time. So it's good to start early, I think certainly earlier than most people think. Podcast Host 23:48 Yeah, exactly. And I think for parents as well, like it's a, it's a bit of a challenge, because that the you Well, I don't want to burden my child with more pressure. But really, like if you leave it too late, that's when the pressure really starts kicking in. Like, if you're going to have any kind of chance of doing this, you need to kind of spread that pressure over as many years as possible. And as you said, you know, put that plan in place as early as possible. Is there any final advice that you would give to students and or parents who are prospective student athletes? Who are, you know, perhaps kind of thinking, Oh, you know, is the US ever going to be the same for college sports, these kinds of things? What advice would you give them as they move forward to next couple of years and hopefully aiming for that college recruitment? Bryan Moore 24:29 Sure. So I think I think in over the last year with with COVID, I've heard both from athletes and non athletes, this sort of sense that I can't do anything or there's nothing I can do about the fact that I can't go outside or there are opportunities that otherwise were there for me. I think that that's obviously both, you know, it's both true and in some ways, but it also is, I think, it also opens up the opportunity to be that person who solves that problem and to be the person that you know, is able to find a creative way to To pursue whatever their goals are, whether that's athletic or otherwise. And so thinking about getting creative about solving, you know, that challenge, whatever it is for you that, that you're sort of most frustrated by or that you feel like that you can't solve, that's the one that, that you should focus on trying to address in your life, because that's going to be the one that is going to give you the most bang for your buck in terms of that effort that you'll put in. So, you know, if you if you are an athlete listening to this, and that means that, you know, all of those traits that you're learning in practice, you know, how to be a leader, you know, how to persevere through, you know, pain are tough challenges, you know, apply those skills or, you know, in other areas, right, if there's some initiative going on at your school that that you're interested in, but you know, otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to take part in because that's what you normally have practice, now's the time to take advantage of those kinds of opportunities. And so you know, if you can lean forward through this, as difficult as it is, you know, obviously, it is very challenging. But if you can find a way to push through that you're going to be much further along than the most of your peers will be. And you'll build that lead and be in a great position to take advantage of whatever goals are in front of you, whether that's the admissions process or some other challenge that you want to tackle. Podcast Host 26:17 Perfect. Well, Bryan, it's been awesome chatting all about sports, I always learn a thing or two chatting with our lovely strategists from all around the world. And you are no exception to that rule for students or parents who will listen to this, there will be a link in the show notes if you'd like to work with someone like Bryan, on an application to the US or the UK or wherever you have in mind. But obviously, if you're aiming for sports, you're probably better off aim for the US. But Bryan, it's been awesome chatting and enjoy the rest of your day there in the US. Bryan Moore 26:44 Great to see you Alex. Thanks for having me on. Podcast Host 26:46 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#37 Cryptos, Gamestop and Getting a Finance Internship in Year 10

🗓 MAR 6, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:04 I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with 15 year old Dubai student, Aryaansh. Aryaansh has just recently completed a three month internship at one of the world's biggest banks, JP Morgan. We chat about how we got the internship, his views on Gamestop and cryptocurrencies, and what students can do in high school to get a head start on a career in finance. Let's chat with Aryaansh. Hi Aryaansh, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it is awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Aryaansh 00:51 Good afternoon, Alex. Thanks for having me on. So I'm 15 years old, and I am a Year 10 student in Dubai. And basically, you know, for the last year or so I've been building my entire life around finance and entrepreneurship. And basically, it's using, you know, the intersection of these two worlds to explore myself a little more. And I've been working on a bunch of side projects that not only benefit me, but benefit those around me. And I think it's really awesome, you know that I can create things that have a real world impact on people close to me. Podcast Host 01:21 Perfect. Well, just to give people a bit of context here, I actually connected with you on LinkedIn. And I played a little bit of a game with my oldest brother. And it was guest the age of the person who is posting this content. And it was one of your posts regarding financial Bitcoin, whatever it is, like you do some really impressive posts on LinkedIn. And my brother had a rate of it. And he was like, oh, Jason, pretty good analysis here. I'm going to get this person's like late 20s, early 30s. I'm like, 'he's 15!'. And my brother was like, 'Oh, my God, that's crazy'. And then, you know, setting up the interview, I said, oh, what's your email? And your email Is that one finance nerd, right? So when you say you're basing your life around finance and entrepreneurship, you really do mean it. Why finance and entrepreneurship, what really drew you to getting so involved in the world of finance? Aryaansh 02:14 It was practically a stroke of luck. So two years back, you know, we had an email pop up in our school email inbox, and it was regarding the stock market challenge. And you know, at that time, I knew nothing about the stock market, I just knew was reserved for rich people. So I decided to sign up. And we were given $100,000, of initial capital to invest as we clicked. And, you know, I was like, Oh, my God, $100,000. That's a lot of money. So I just had to play around a little bit, you know, investing in names I knew. And you know, this was all virtual. So it gave me a good flavor of the markets. And then, yeah, I think he was really the adrenaline that you see, whenever the stock tickers jump up or down, or, you know, the fact that you can do your own analysis on the market. And that can actually affect how well you do. I think that's what really drew me to it. And then I realized, wait a minute, this finance thing seems kind of fun. So I contacted one of my family members, who's a fund manager at fidelity. And he basically set me up with a bunch of books to read. So one thing really about me is that I love to learn, as in, you know, read a book article podcast, I love to take in information, whenever I'm not doing something. So you know, it gave me a bunch of books to kind of keep me busy. And you know, once I read them, I kind of got really more intrigued into, you know, not only stock market, but how there is a certain code to making money, and there's a certain code to how the world works. And it all revolves around this concept of money. And it's just like, how you manage it, and how the world manages it. And I think that really intrigues me towards, you know, something to do with economics and finance as a career. Podcast Host 03:50 In terms of the books that you were recommended, what kind of books were they? And are there any titles that you recall, and said, like that one that really made a difference for me. Aryaansh 04:01 So you know, whenever you search out how to invest in the stock market, you keep getting hit by these three names, the Intelligent Investor, and there's a few others, but but I think they're amazing reads. So I got recommended a bunch of books by this investor called Peter Lynch. And he actually managed, you know, Fidelity Investments Magellan fund, and he had one of the best track records as a fund manager. And I found that really interesting. So I was, like, you know, quite a lot to learn. So, the two books that I feel always have, you know, helped me learn the most, one up on Wall Street and beating the street. So big link to wall street there. However, I think it's very interesting because, you know, once you look into the mindset of someone who has, you know, in the auto of these market cycles, you know, the stock market dips, big stock market corrections. It's really interesting to see that, you know, these people don't invest, you know, like the other shopping spree. It's, you know, very careful. They do their analysis very well. And each of them has a very eccentric style of investing. And I think what's really cool is that, you know, you can invite these qualities into yourself. And then Apart from that, I think, you know, the internet's been amazingly helpful to me, in terms of, you know, actually inhaling this content. So there have been these awesome courses and podcasts that I've been listening to, that just helped me get a good flavor of how you know, the financial world is moving. Podcast Host 05:26 Okay, so you're enjoying the motivation that you got from the game that you played. And just to be clear, that was like $100,000, pretend money, not real money. And, and, for me, I played a similar game when I was in high school as well. But like, I didn't go on with it, because I think I got kind of bored looking at the numbers, and it just seemed to go up and down. And I didn't really know too much about the work that you could put in to make a more informed choice. And it sounds like for you that that's the kind of switch that made you more interested in the investing side of things. Like, once you start knowing that the more analysis you put in, the better your choices are going to be. And the more apps you'll get the downs, is that the kind of like game that you're playing, that you're kind of trying to, I guess, learn so much that you can outsmart the stock market? I mean, Well, technically, Aryaansh 06:18 yes. Like, you know, the short story is, yes. However, the long story is that, you know, it's like, you know, the house always wins kind of thing. So what I've been trying to do is trying to find companies and trying to find, you know, opportunities that I can quickly make use of as a needle trading on momentum. So, you know, let's say a company is coming out with brilliant earnings, what I do is I buy the stock, and I just wait two weeks for the earnings kind of frenzy to pass, and then I'd sell the stock, because brilliant earnings means that people are gonna, you know, believe that the company is gonna make more money going out, and that was the stocks gonna go up. So it's just, you know, instances like these event based investing, Podcast Host 06:57 Now, a lot of people would say, you need to have money to make money. So if you don't mind me asking, Where did you find the money originally to start investing in the stock market? Aryaansh 07:08 So actually, originally, it wasn't my own money. So I pulled together a bunch of friends. And we decided to set up a signals group. And how signals group works is that, you know, one person sitting there, and He's the owner of the group. And what he does is he independently does his own stock analysis. And maybe, you know, he looks for a bunch of stock charts, and comes up with a bunch of trade ideas. And these trade ideas are ones that he would use himself to make himself money. So what he does is, he goes to the bunch of people in his signals group, and he just gives them the trade idea for a small fee. And it's these small fees, or these small commissions that slowly add up and end up you know, profiting him as well. Podcast Host 07:45 Were you the signals guy? Aryaansh 07:47 Yes, with the three, four of my friends. And then obviously, I transitioned to working on a bigger project with a few other people. Podcast Host 07:54 So you're like the guy giving out the stock tips for a fee, Yahoo consultant in a way, like a new financial consultant, and so your clients were other students? Aryaansh 08:06 Other students, Yes, Podcast Host 08:08 So just within your school, or from the wider Dubai area? Aryaansh 08:10 Oh, no, just within my school. Podcast Host 08:12 Okay. So like, you've got a uni level, that's pretty keen on stock investing, or they're keen on it, if they know someone else is going to do the work for them? Aryaansh 08:20 Precisely. I mean, if that's the kind of thing, you're taking all of this stress on their shoulders, and it went really well, you know, the good thing is they will my friends. So you know, there was a degree of understanding between us, but it was really interesting to see, you know, people are refreshing their stock screens every two seconds reacting to little dips, little gains. And, you know, I found it pretty interesting, just to see as in not only from a psychological thing, but from behavioral thing as in, you know, how people respond to making money. Podcast Host 08:48 Yeah. Now, you don't have to give all your tricks right now. But what are some of the strategies that you like to use, when you're investing in the stock market? I know a lot of people are more like the buy the the solid stocks, hold them for, you know, 10 plus years, and then save them appreciate over that length of time. But I guess when you're 15 years old, you don't really want to be thinking 10 years ahead. So what are some of your strategies for that shorter term investments. Aryaansh 09:14 So, you know, I'm really glad that you brought this point up. And I'm not going to get I'm not going to get very technical with this. But you can get a little technical, Podcast Host 09:23 You can get a little technical, don't be afraid to flex your knowledge a bit. Aryaansh 09:26 So this these indicators, this indicator called the relative strength index, and it basically shows buying momentum versus selling momentum of a stock. And it condenses all that information into this really nice number. And you can use this number to do a lot of things. So there's basically two barriers really, there's an A so you know, ranges from zero to 100. And once it gets to 20, that basically means there's been so much selling pressure on the stock that is bound to go up. And once it gets to 80 there's so much buying pressure on it that it's about to go down. So obviously it's just it's just a Nice indicator of how whether stocks can be moving in the short term, then along with this, what I've done is I've been developing algorithm. So how it works is, you know, you can call it high frequency trading HFT. And how it works is the algorithm buys and sells stocks much, much faster than your I could, as in you know, you know, let's say it spots a certain price discrepancy from one market to another. And what it does is it buys a stock from one sells it at another. And that's called arbitrage. Another thing that this robot does is Well, I mean, I had to develop it myself. And another thing it does is, you know, it gathers insider information. So as an information from people inside the company, and basically sees their stock buying patterns. And, you know, I there's a bunch of math formulas involved. But how it works is it condenses all of this activity. And once again, it puts it into a nice number. And that gives me like an insider sentiment or an insider confidence rating of a stock. And you know, based on this insider confidence rating, I decide whether to buy or sell, because you know, it's the people inside the company that know best about what's happening with the company. Then there's this other technical kind of analysis to dive that a friend of mine and I developed called Brownian motion. And Brownian motion is actually the random movement of particles. So we just leave it like that, because we thought it'd be funny. But how it works is there's a bunch of moving averages and moving averages are basically smoothed out averages of the way a stock price is looking. And we use these averages to find out things called support and resistance levels. And a support level is basically a price level at which the stock just won't go down. As in, you know, once it gets to that price, it is just too cheap for people not to buy. And the same way a resistance level is, you know, a price high enough that people like okay, this is too expensive is going to go down. So you know, we use that kind of we use these technicals to just get a good idea of where stocks gonna be in the next week or so. Podcast Host 11:58 Now, couple of questions. I love what you're doing. I think that's awesome. The algorithm to buy and sell quickly, the high frequency trading, is there not a brokerage cost on those kinds of things. I'm kind of like half asking for myself here Havasu for our listeners, of course. But you know, like for people who have invested before, usually, like if you invest with a bank or something like that, like you invest through a bank, I should say, you pay like a fairly high brokerage costs on any trade. So that's like to even make the trade. They'll say, well, you got to pay us 30 bucks just to make the trade whatever it is. And is that something that comes up in age of tea? Or are you how are you doing it? Aryaansh 12:36 So one thing that I really like to outline here is that for the last two, three years, we've seen brokerages like Robin Hood, on the rise, and they offer commission free investing as zero commissions to buy or sell stocks, you can buy as much as you want. They don't charge you anything. And I think you know, how it works is and these commission free brokerages basically have the potential to wipe out all of the traditional brokerages that charge you pretty hefty fees on buying or selling stocks. Think about it, you know, the average person isn't ready to pay a $30 Commission on a $50 stock. Because that's just exorbitant. And I think you know, what's really interesting is how the rise of Robin Hood and the actual kind of gamification of investing, let's call it that has really led to the whole GameStop saga that we've seen happening over the past month. So when I use my HFT bot, I don't trade it on stocks, I trade, foreign exchange. So foreign exchange is currencies, how many euros can I get for $1? How many Swiss francs can I get for a Euro? That kind of thing. Podcast Host 13:39 Right. Okay, and is that performing? Well, because I'm going to guess that that's not the first algorithm out there that is trying to predict foreign currency exchange rates and how to make you know that arbitrage that difference on each trade, like I'm going to guess there's a lot of maths involved. And there'd be some people developing like really good ones. And some people developing not so good ones how's yours doing? Aryaansh 14:03 Mines doing pretty well. I mean, the purposes that mine serves a really short term. And, you know, obviously, I don't have the infrastructure to make it a massive operation. And I need to do I plan to because the truth is that, you know, you've got these massive investment banks, massive trading firms, you know, that can execute at speeds you literally can't imagine. So there's this really nice book I read called flash boys, and basically a firm paid, I think it was excess of $50 million to lay fiber optic cable straight through mountain instead of taking the obvious route that was right around it. And you know, it's this so there's like a difference, you know, a 1.5 millisecond difference color should be what changes between $10 million dollars and $1 million. And I think, you know, that kind of speed. us any individual person like me just could never match up to Podcast Host 14:55 Okay, but it's still a pretty cool thing that you'll be paying years old and have to go The narrow rhythm to trade foreign currencies? And where did you learn to create an algorithm like that? Is it something that you learned on YouTube through computer science courses? Like, how do you go about that? Aryaansh 15:11 So one beautiful thing about 2021 is that you can get any information you want for absolutely no cost via the internet, it's just that you've got to know where to look. And what I did was, you know, I started with some really basic courses on Python. And Python is the language that I use for majority of my algorithm writing and execution. And basically, most of this was done by YouTube courses. And via, you know, individual boot camps that were done for free. I didn't spend anything on learning how to make these robots. It's all a result of researching on the internet and reading as much as I can. Talking to a bunch of people in the industry is always helpful, I'd say. And LinkedIn is an amazing tool for this. So I'd say harness like it was just a combination of three of those would be, it'll go a long way to fortifying your skills there. Podcast Host 16:01 Yeah. So Python, and then I guess, knowing what you want the bot to do, right? Or what you want the algorithm to do, and then plugging it into your computer, right, so it can recognize the the movements going up and down and making those trades. That's pretty awesome. I think that's pretty cool. And then you've got the the Brownian motion, right. And with that, I'm going to guess that, you know, the the random movements of particles, as you said, the whole GameStop thing, as you said, was like a pretty crazy thing for people in the game of stock markets would have been a bit surprised by that, because it pretty much threw out all the rule books, can you sum up GameStop situation in an easy to understand way? Aryaansh 16:39 Okay, so let's start with this really nice monkey analogy. So you know, let's say, I'm a monkey, and I have a banana. And the banana right now is priced at $10. And, you know, at the end of the day, the banana is still a banana, however, I feel that the price, the value of the banana is going to go down. So what I do is, you know, I go to my good buddy, Alex, and I asked to borrow, you know, a banana that he has, and I immediately sell it on the market. And now I'm holding $10. So you know, say two months past, and the actual value of that banana has decreased to $1. So what I do is, I buy the banana back from those $10 that I got when I initially sold the banana, and I returned the banana back to Alex. So Alex has what he gave me in the first place, and I have a nice profit margin of $9. Right. So this is how shorting a stock works and how, you know, it's basically boring shares, immediately selling them and buying them back later for cheap. And that's, you know, what are key principles you need to understand when realizing, you know, what happened with GameStop. So GameStop is a physical concrete video game retailer, and you know, the COVID pandemic killed, like quite literally kill them. So a lot of hedge funds gotta be good idea to short the stock, that basically means they borrow shares that are really expensive right now, but are going to decline in value, because the companies are going to be making any money. So they borrow the shares. So they borrow the shares, and they immediately sell them. And now they're holding this money, and they want to buy it back later, at a really cheap price. So they started shorting so many shares, that at one point, they somehow exploited a bunch of loopholes, and they manage to borrow shares that did not exist, which is illegal. So a bunch of people on Reddit decided it would be a good idea to try to squeeze these investors. So let's get back to the banana analogy. Now, you know, say I'm holding this banana, and suddenly, the price goes up to $20. Now, suddenly, that's a problem for me, because now I have to buy the banana back for much, much more than I paid for it. And that way, it's going to benefit Alex, because he's holding something that is now worth double what it originally was. And if you recall, I have to buy the banana back. And it's like supply and demand. If I buy more, the price is going to go up, because producers feel that they can sell more. And that's what happened in GameStop. So lots of people tried to buy the stock, and the stock price went up and the hedge funds were like, Oh, no, I'm losing money. And they had to buy back more shares. And they kept on buying it, they kept on buying. And the price slowly went from, you know, a low of like, $2.50 to I think its peak was $483. So you know, it was really crazy. Podcast Host 19:22 What does that tell you about the future of trading? And like the future of algorithms that are used to predict the stock market? Can people still use those kind of algorithms? Can people use kind of old school analysis to predict something like this? Or is this I think, throughout the rule book, in many ways, because a lot of people were saying that no one could have predicted this. It was purely like a user Reddit based kind of revolt of the people rising up against the hedge fund managers. Aryaansh 19:52 Absolutely. And I think I think you know, that's one really important thing to note here is that we saw the revolution, not only in the way that people invest, but in the way that you know how the market is rigged to benefit the wealthy people, as in, you know, these hedge fund guys, they somehow managed to borrow shares that didn't even exist. And you know, that obviously infuriated a lot of people who are, you know, surviving off of stimulus checks kind of thing. And I think, you know, actually, one interesting thing to note here is that the HFT bots, the frequency trading bots, ended up making a lot lot more money, just because of the fact that the stock was so volatile. And since these guys trade very, very short term, as in, you know, the luxury they have is that they can put a million dollars in stock, when it's at $1, and take it up when it's at $1.01 and have a $10,000 profit. But a normal investor just can't do that normally, investor doesn't have the money, a normal investor doesn't have the time, and doesn't have the speed to keep watching that trend. And, you know, I think what it's done is it's really shaken up the notion that the stock market is reserved for people, you know, with massive pools of money, and I think it's gonna attract a lot more people. However, one thing that I'm really thinking about is that there are going to be people who, you know, like the hedge fund managers, they have a lot of money to invest, but an individual investor, he has to invest, say, his daughter's college fund. And if that goes upside, that could obviously not be very good for him. So it's just your nuances like that, that I think will end up obviously, being a bad political guy. Podcast Host 21:29 Yeah, I remember seeing a great quote, actually, that said, the fee of missing out the FOMO of missing the boat on the next big, you know, GameStop, the next Bitcoin, the next Apple, the next, you know, whatever, the FOMO around, that is a greater driver for people to enter the stock market, then the risk of losing money, the main risk is missing out, not losing money, which is a weird way of thinking about it. But I think at the moment, there's probably more stories of the rocket ship to the moon type of stuff, like desktop, and Bitcoin and people making millions off the market, which is bringing all these people to the stock market and to kryptos and whatnot. I'm gonna throw another one out there, actually Dogecoin which has been absolutely, like Dogecoin has gone up like 1000s and 1000s of percent. And for people who follow Elon Musk on Twitter and have been asking themselves, like, what the hell is he tweeting about when he keeps talking about Dogecoin and whatnot, he's talking about crypto. And you know, people have made millions of dollars off this crypto not too many, but a couple people have made millions of dollars off this crypto. And it was really just it felt like a crypto based on a community but it didn't really serve any purpose as far as I can. Exactly. It was purely just like by Dogecoin to be a part of this stupid major type of thing. Aryaansh 22:55 Like exactly that all about. So you know, the actual cryptocurrency was made because of a meme that came around, and it was about this Doge dog. I'm pretty sure you've seen the face. The Shiba Inu. Yes. Yep. It's that it's someone made it this and you know, anyone can virtually set up their own cryptocurrency so someone was like, might as well do it. Dogecoin is a thing now. And you know, this happened, I think seven years back. So this is when crypto was really fledgling. And, you know, everything was really new. Someone was like, might as well make it as a joke. And, you know, that's how it had been ever since. But then GameStop happened and people were like, Okay, I'm trying to find some more assets. I can YOLO my money are in YOLO. You only live once. So you know, take a lot of risk on it and just go all in. So someone was like, oh, Dogecoin and Elon Musk. He's, you know, kind of, he tries to keep up with the trend. You know, he's post memes on his Twitter account. He's just really active that in that kind of sense. So what he decided to do was, he decided to post a single tweet that said much Wow, and uch who W and, you know, the Shiba Inu meme was that it speaks you know, really broken English. And, and, you know, Elon tweeted and I was like, Oh, no, Dogecoin And on that day, the price went up, I think 270% and, you know, you've got people you know, who've just put a $5,000 in this a while back thinking I might as well as it's just just as a joke. And you know, they come back and it just blew their investments balloon. Podcast Host 24:25 You know what I got on that as well. I was like, after GameStop I realized that the stock market has so many who is not willing to do the analysis, not willing to put in the work and just want to be on the next rocket ship to the moon. And when Ilan Musk is championing this dough coin and then Snoop Dogg and like all these other celebrities and stuff getting getting on board as well. I thought, you know what, I didn't put in too much money, but I've put in just enough to make it interesting. You know, it's one of those funny, it's a really funny time to be an investor. It definitely feels very much removed from The days of like, you know, Warren Buffett going to the store and trying things out and, you know, going through the analysis and looking at the costs and that kind of thing, it seems like a more fun way to invest. But in your view, is it a good strategy to be investing in fun things, or is long term profits going to come from from putting in the work? Aryaansh 25:21 I think what we saw right now, I had a really good conversation with someone on LinkedIn the other day, and they said, you know, retail investors have made a mockery of the public markets. And I agree with that statement. To an extent, this is the first thing we've ever seen of this style, individual investors trading the stock market. However, I still feel that it is not a good thing in the long run, because, you know, these are people who are putting money and change their lives into investments. And what I feel that's going to contribute to is, you know, if they lose that money, what now, right? And, you know, these people on very educational the risks of what could happen if their investments, you know, go the other way, and they're in it for the joke, and what now, but literally, so I think I think, you know, people have had that fun, but I really think it's time to move on. Because the house always wins, there is always going to be someone who has more information than someone who is faster than you someone who has more experienced than you. And it's the same thing in the stock market. And what people don't realize is that it's that it's these little advantages that add up. And I think, you know, it's all gonna come tumbling down, you know, we've been like pumping this balloon to its very limit. So I have a feeling, you know, it's quite like a bubble right now. You know, you've got electric vehicle stocks going all the way. And, you know, we actually saw it a while back tech stocks had their worst day, I think, for the last 100 days, the US Treasury bonds hiked their prices up by, you know, obviously very high price. It was like 50 basis points in one day, and people got really scared, and tech stocks, took it on the chin. And, you know, it's this kind of cascade, really, that I think can not only shake up the financial sector as is, but could shake up people's lives. Podcast Host 27:11 Yeah, now you've made entering the stock market or any kind of investing sound, I guess, a bit more realistic in the view that it is a bit riskier than a lot of people think that it's not necessarily a joke. And, you know, you've got to take this kind of seriously. So for students who are listening, and who perhaps have an interest in the stock market, but don't have any money in it yet, what should they do? Or what questions should they be asking themselves? What reading should they be doing? before they start putting money in the direction of the stock market and hoping for the best? Aryaansh 27:41 That's actually really good question. And one thing I'd really like to outline is only invest as much as you're able to lose. So you know, invest as much money as if you lost it the next day as if it evaporated, you'll be perfectly fine with it, it wouldn't have any impact on your life. And I think that's key to understanding how it's not good to get emotionally attached to the stuff you investigate, because price fluctuations happen all the time. And it is definitely not going to help if you're the one refreshing the screen every two seconds, and you know, start crying or start celebrating over little dips in the price. So what I'd really like to think about, everyone listening to think about is, if you're investing in something, only invest in something you can understand. So Peter Lynch, actually the first book I ever read one up on Wall Street, he said, you know, if you cannot explain the idea of the business to a five year old, don't invest in it, they have this company with, you know, a bunch of axes in their name. And it's like x laboratories, and they produced wafer silicone chips for micro optical scanning, you know, really complicated stuff. But if you don't understand the product at its core, you shouldn't go there. You know, which is why, like you said, as well, you know, you'd hold on to a good stock for 10 years, and wait for it to pay its dividends, which would appreciate over the time. And I think that strategy, like it or not, that kind of strategy always wins. And it's like, you know, not to listen to your emotions too much, because there was this good post I saw on Wall Street bets as well. The most important stock you have is your brain, and don't let it fall apart due to a gambling addiction. And, you know, once you see all of this, you know, theoretical money pop up on the screen, once the stock prices go up, you know, you get happy and once it goes down, you get sad. And I think if you've given to your emotions too much, that can kind of don't need to investments just getting derailed, but your life as a whole. Podcast Host 29:34 That's some really good advice. And I always say to students, like if you're going to be learning about anything, learn about investing, because it's a skill you should have for the rest of your life. You're not going to make your fortune. Well, the majority of people are not going to make their fortune through a job. They're going to make their fortune through investing or like owning a business, potentially a property, whatever it might be, but you're never too young to start investing, which leads me to shift gears a little bit towards combining the two investing and getting a job, you have an internship at JP Morgan, which will be a surprise for a lot of people who would have thought that it's probably, you know, more of like a university level thing to be getting an internship with, you know, one of the biggest banks in the world, can you talk us through how a year 1015 year old landed a internship at JP Morgan. Aryaansh 30:23 Um, so actually, you know, it was just a stroke of pure chance, you know, I was scrolling through this kind of repository that I have of articles and links, to internships to job placements. And then I came across the JP Morgan careers website, and I was like, you might as well click on it, explore what it is. So the good thing about JP Morgan's website is that it is laid out much, much better, and they have many more options to offer, then I'm sure that I'm pretty sure any of the other ones, any of the other investment banks or firms, and, you know, they've got really four classes of internship. And of these, I think a two of them are available to high schoolers. And you know, there's like an internship and a pre internship. And so I decided to apply. And, you know, it's a fairly straightforward process, there was this really nice terminal, I filled in my stuff 100 in my resume. And, you know, that was it, then I had done I had to do this thing called a plyometrics test, which is really like an IQ test in the form of a small video game. That was that was interesting, but I had to keep tapping my spacebar a lot. And you know, that was really it. So I think what really stood out about my application as a whole was the fact that I should like not only an interest in finance, but as in, you know, I had taken stuff to feel that interest, as in, you know, I'd set up a fund with my friends, I'd read a little, you know, I'd worked on a little project about financial awareness, that kind of thing. Podcast Host 31:51 Right. And so what did it involve? What were you doing? Aryaansh 31:54 So, so what I've been basically doing for the majority of this is learning how to make financial models. And I think I'm very sure in investment banking, it's a very big thing, you know, because investment banking involves, you know, making deals happen. So, you know, when you get to a business, there's three financial statements, you got to think about, there's an income statement, balance sheet, and a cash flow forecast. And what I've been learning is how to, you know, make the very best of these models. And, you know, there's things called leveraged buyouts. And basically, it's a lot of financial modeling. And actually, over this internship, I learned how to use Excel without a mouse. So that was really the one of the highlights of the entire thing. And yeah, and so Apart from that, I learned a lot more about the trading desks here. And so JPMorgan has an HFT segment. And, you know, what they've been doing is high frequency trading, like I said, trading really seconds. And, you know, I sat down, we were thinking about strategy with a bunch of the people there. And it was very interesting, you know, thinking about what stocks kind of be look for what kind of features they capitalize on, when they are trying to do high frequency trading. Podcast Host 33:01 Right. And you said, one of the big highlights was learning how to use Excel without a mask. I know that there's like a heap of shortcuts. And I know as well that like, people might think, well, that's pretty lame thing to learn from an internship at JP Morgan. But being really good at Excel, and being really good at financial modeling is like a huge part of what a lot of financial analysts need to do. So how is your kind of skill set in that area gone from from like, fairly introductory to, you know, would you say intermediate? Or where do you think you rank yourself against other financial analysts at this point. Aryaansh 33:36 So from what I've heard, from talking to people in the industry, you know, you start out as an analyst role, like you said, and analysts basically get off the ground work passed down to them. And you know, this involves quite a lot of number crunching. And I'd say, you know, my skills really scrappy with Excel, because this because I never used Excel for anything other than, you know, maybe creating a calendar, which is a very limited use case. And, you know, what I found is, there is just so much stuff you can do with Excel. But now, I mean, I always have an Excel tab open for whenever I need to do a little bit of quick maths. And it's just amazing. And there's this really nice means about how the whole world's banking system relies on Microsoft Excel. And you know, just that's how pavlidis use cases, you know, you've got whole companies pulling their balance sheets, putting their financial information onto this one piece of software. And the beautiful thing is the numbers tell a story of that. And I'd say my skill sets gone from, you know, Fanny rusty, to pretty good. I mean, I I mean, the keyboards on it. Podcast Host 34:35 Yeah, exactly. Which is a real test of a good Excel user. And after doing the JP Morgan internship, what kind of doors Do you feel that's open for you, in terms of like your notoriety among your peers as like that one financial nerd to the wider LinkedIn world? Do you feel like it's given you a leg up in that area because you can put JP Morgan on your LinkedIn profile and people know Are you for that? Aryaansh 35:01 I definitely say that does, you know, it's like, the name just got a brand to it. And just having the experiences that I've, you know, gone through the work that I've done, it's really interesting to see how a big thumb handles work. I mean, if I was a university and undergraduate student, you know, if I did good, I'd probably get offered a full time some analyst role that, you know, I obviously wouldn't get paid for, but I'm not coming yet. So I tend, you know, when I talk to my friends as well, it's really interesting to hear about their opinions on a big tank like that. And you said it very well, your notoriety amongst my peers. So I mean, that really is just amazing interacting with people in the industry, working alongside them, shadowing them, users understanding how their thought process is because these people have gone to the very best of schools excel at the very best of what they do. And I think it's been an amazing learning experience. And I'd say, in terms of opening up doors, I mean, I fully understand just how a company's got to tell its story through its numbers. Podcast Host 36:04 Of course, you know, you've been putting in all those numbers in Excel spreadsheets for the last couple of months. So it's good that you've had that opportunity, after the three month experience, are you more committed or less committed, or the same to your future in financing? Aryaansh 36:18 So I think I am much, much more committed. I mean, you know, obviously, the trading part of it is one thing. But I think what's essential, as well as understanding these companies at their core, and I found this kind of experience to be like, an eye opener to things like that, I would definitely, you know, be 100% interested in a salon and still have, like, you know, a big bag. And I find that, you know, it's helped me a lot in understanding just how the world works. Podcast Host 36:47 Yeah, exactly. And in terms of where you want to go in university, like where do you see yourself studying? What do you see yourself studying? Like, Is there much benefit to studying when you are already creating algorithms and doing all this kind of stuff in the 10th? Aryaansh 37:03 I'm so actually, I really want to do this quantitative finance was at the Washington University for my undergraduate I've been looking at like so my top choice schools, all the ivy League's most of the ivy League's. And that's why I really aspire to be and just forming these kind of bonds from these relationships with people is really important. And then obviously, I'm sure that the experience you get and you know, obviously, a top tier University, learning the things that you love doing would be much, much different from you know, you tried to self teach yourself. Podcast Host 37:36 Yeah, absolutely. My my general impression is that classes like economics is not necessarily the place to learn about the stock market. Am I right in saying that? Aryaansh 37:45 I absolutely agree with that economics is, I'd say, the language of how people work. It's like, the good thing about economics is it combines, you know, how people react to things that happen in the market that they end to get onto the internet, the laptop that you've bought, that, you know, you've gone to market transacted for that, you know, you think about what to buy on Amazon? What impacts those decisions? You know, that's, that's, that's really more of a behavioral thing, which I think, you know, it's it's really poetic, really, how economics is this one language encompasses all of it? And it's like, you know, perfectly sound explanation, but everything anyone does, Podcast Host 38:25 Yes, well, that's what they try and do, I guess, in the rational economic style of being rational thinking, not always exactly the case, when you have something like GameStop coming along, which is kind of flew in the face of all economic theory. But do you have any final advice for students who are perhaps aiming for a career in finance, banking, that kind of thing, Aryaansh 38:44 I'd say, you know, the biggest thing you got to remember is that your brain is, you know, the best asset you could ever possibly have. So I'd say, invest more time on yourself, because that's going to ultimately lead to better investments for you. So you know, the books you read, the more courses you do, the more podcasts you listen to, the more people you talk to just just everything, you know, it's no steps, you know, you might read a book, and then just not think about it for the next week. But that book is going to change your outlook on something. And all of these little things, I'd say they add up and they add up and they go exponentially. So you know, I tried to do this, as well as in I tried to read a lot, read an interesting article, or like a book about a topic. I tried to take knowledge in and try to make the best use of that knowledge. And apart from that, I'd say, harness your social networks. And by social networks, I mean, LinkedIn. So, you know, a bunch of the projects I've been working on, I have met people, certainly entrepreneurship bug me, you know, eight, nine months back, it'd be locked down. And the only way I found people to work on things like this with me was via LinkedIn. And if you network with people in the industry, you know, it takes it takes a bit of time to get used to, but I feel you know, that time That you could have spent on tik tok or Instagram, it's gonna be much, much better served on platforms like LinkedIn, making meaningful impressions with the people that can matter most to your career. Podcast Host 40:11 And before you go as well, I want to know where you get your day to day information from because I think a lot of people would think, okay, if I need to learn about the stock market, I'll read the Wall Street Journal, or I'll read, you know, like the, here in Australia, the Australian Financial Review or something like that. But of course, you know, there is a lot of great online forums where you have like, people who are super nerdy about this stuff, who are, you know, telling you things that you probably never read in the newspaper. So what are your go to resources for those that day to day information about what's happening in the stock market? Aryaansh 40:43 So if I want to know what's happening, the stock market says it, you know, news wise, I'd say the Financial Times, they offer a free subscription to secondary school students. So you know, it's amazing that ways, which are financial data as information on stocks, there's this amazing company called atom finance. And atom finance has been, you know, serving my needs for the last year. So they offer like a month, that means subscription for free, and it is amazing. They give you so much data that you just don't know what to do with a little bit. And I'd say, you know, information is really key to understanding what's happening, you know, what moves are going on. So Financial Times are to finance. And this is one last one that's really underrated, but it's called KoiFin and it's basically, you know, like a proper stock trading terminal. Um, except it's just really technical. And you know, you don't need a mouse to use it. It's entirely keyboard driven, which is one thing I like even being on Excel. Podcast Host 41:40 Yeah. So Koi fin, Financial Times, and Atom finance, was it? Absolutely awesome. Well, I will recommend that for students listen to the podcast to save those in their favorites. And if students wanted to connect with you, what would be the best way to go about it? I'm going to guess LinkedIn is one of the Aryaansh 41:58 LinkedIn is the biggest option, there is a connection request, the more than happy to accept it. I love creating relationships with people via LinkedIn. And I mean, you know, my email, Alex, very kindly note that at the start of the session, that one finance analogy. Podcast Host 42:17 Perfect. Well, I'll put those in the show notes, and hopefully some students reach out to you. Thank you so much for joining us, and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Aryaansh 42:25 Absolutely. Thank you so much. Podcast Host 42:27 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to crimsoneducation.org

College Tips - A Deep Dive into the UK Personal Statement with Crimson Strategist, Abbi Colwyn

#5 A Deep Dive into the UK Personal Statement with Crimson Strategist, Abbi Colwyn

🗓 MAR 3, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:00 Welcome to top of the class, hear from education experts and get insights from high achievers to learn how you can do the same get into those top schools ready. Proudly presented by Crimson Education, the world's leader in university admissions support. Hello, and welcome to college tips. Today, UK application strategist and Oxford graduate Abby Cohen discusses the UK personal statements. She shares some of her favorite essay writing formulas, techniques to refine the essays and examples from successful applicants. Let's chat with Abby Cohen. Hi, Abby, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Abbi 00:41 Yeah, great. Thank you for having me. So I'm Abby. I'm a UK strategy consultant here at crimson. So I work with students aiming for top universities in the UK. I myself studied at Oxford, I did English Language and Literature specializing in medieval ism, actually. And then I did my masters at London School of Economics in international policy. Podcast Host 01:03 Wow. So you've been at both Oxford and LSE. So you've seen some of the top universities both in the regional parts of London, I guess you could call Oxford and Cambridge, regional in that sense. And also right in the centre of London, right in the heart of London, what was the biggest difference for you between that experience from Oxford and LSE? Abbi 01:22 I mean, so. So the biggest difference, I would say, was the collegiate system at Oxford. So being part of a college itself, not just the university, I absolutely loved that. It made it super easy to make friends, there was lots of college events, which I found really nice sense of belonging that side of things. Whereas at London I lived in private accommodation with friends already had. So that made things a little bit different for my masters. But I loved London life, the networking, the environment, being on a tube, not so much. But everything else I really, really enjoy, but definitely different living experiences. For sure. Podcast Host 01:57 I've been lucky enough to visit both Oxford and LSE. Just as a tourist, of course, not as a student, I wish as a student. But yeah, it's LSE, I found to be fascinating, because you barely know it's there. Some of the times like you're walking past the buildings, and you'll just see these like little inconspicuous LSA signs. So it's so integrated in the heart of London, and obviously Oxford Oxford, is very much owns the town in a way. But let's get into what you're wanting to chat about today, which I believe is personal statements. Why did you choose personal statements as your topic of choice? Hmm, Abbi 02:30 great question. And so ultimately, I love working with students on their personal statements, I find it such an interesting process, because it's one of those parts of the application that you can really make individual. So it's a chance for me to have meetings with students and actually just get a sense of what their interests are, and have great debates in our sessions as well. So with working with students across different subjects, I'm learning as well, I'm learning about all these different areas of physics, or maths or humanities that that students really, really care about. And so I just find it really, really rewarding experience and to get students from, you know, just initially describing being a bit shy, maybe about I've read this, but I don't really know what to talk about. So then seeing a finished product, something tangible at the end, where that'd be insightful and really, really engaging. It's just a really, really nice thing to see and to work on. So definitely something that I'm passionate about in the application process. Podcast Host 03:23 Yeah, absolutely. I can hear that passion in your voice, which is awesome. So I'm looking forward to asking you some questions here and learning more about the personal statements. My first one being, what role does the personal statement play in the application process? Like, at what stage? Is it likely to be read? Is there likely to play a role there after? Like, what are your views on the importance or the role that the personal statement actually plays? Abbi 03:49 So I guess it's the big personal pitch. So it's really a student's opportunity to give a sense of who they are as a student. So it looks a little bit different in the application process. So students will ultimately write their personal statement as one of the first things they do for the application Admission Test interviews come much later. So that's the first thing they do. Whereas in the application process, it's actually one of the last things, especially for Oxbridge and on top universities that they look at. So they'll start with the kind of the numerical of grades, academics, admission tests, and then they come to look at the statement. So it's really important that that is your big personal pitch that it talks about your interest in the course beyond just what you're good at academically and what you excel in, it needs to very much be about what have you done that demonstrates your interest, your passion, your curiosity, and what are the experiences you've had that makes that relevant? So the role that that really has in the application process is making you an individual making someone who isn't just a carbon copy of what we think universities love to see, but actually someone that's really put in the effort to find out what it is that that they love about their subject and I would say for non Oxbridge universe Because there might not be an interview, it really is your one opportunity to do that you don't have a second chance of giving off your personality and talking through those interests. So it's really worth making the most of that. Podcast Host 05:11 And if you could put like a weighting roughly on the personal statement, is that something that you're able to do? Or does it really depend on your university that you're applying to etc, Abbi 05:21 ignoring kind of medicine, but med dentistry, which is a completely separate ballgame, I would say you're looking at 75% on academics. And then 25% is the personal statement with all the extracurriculars in there with the wider reading subjects engagement. So it's not the biggest factor in your application. But it's certainly something that can push your candidacy and make them make that decision, medicine, dentistry, that med medicine, personal statement becomes less important. They really only use that for the interview stages. And for borderline cases, pretty much everything for those applications will be work experience academics, and the admission test. Podcast Host 06:01 So one of the things that I thought was always interesting, and talking to a former admissions officer who came to Australia, who was a Stanford former Stanford admissions officer, but he said one of the things when you're writing a personal statement for the US, which is another whole topic that we're not going to get into today, but he said like you need to be kind of cognizant of your audience and who you're writing it for. And he said, like the majority of people who are reading these, you know, personal statements in the US and humanities backgrounds type of people, that if you go too heavy in the technical language, they might kind of glaze over and not really understand what you're trying to get across. Is that the same in the UK in that, like the majority of people are reading the personal statements are kind of humanities backgrounds, people who enjoy reading, or is it more kind, of course specific experts who are likely to read the personal statement? Abbi 06:52 Hmm, yeah. So you really have to break this up for kind of Oxbridge and non Oxbridge just because it works completely differently. So, so non Oxbridge, its general admissions officers. So yeah, not necessarily a humanities background. But it will be people who have elected and being, you know, ultimately employed to look through that part of the application process. And so for that kind of application, it does mean being super clear with what you're trying to say you can use specific language to show that you've got knowledge of your course. So we do want you to be very subject specific in your statement, because we don't want it to feel like a humanities statement. We want it to feel say like history statement. Or if you're applying for a stem subject, not just a general stem statement, but a math statement. So you do have to give those specific areas of knowledge with the way you write it needs to be extremely direct and extremely clear. Because it's a general admissions officer, or Oxbridge. It's a completely unique process, because it's tutors that will be reading your statement, not general admission staff. So these will be the people that might interview you, and ultimately could be your tutor in a one to one or two to one tutorial or supervision. So for the Oxbridge application, that very much means going above just here's my interest, but actually making sure that you stand out as someone that a tutor says, right, I want to chew to you, the way that you really do that is by showing your academic character. So by that we mean, showing that you're curious showing that you're an independent thinker. Don't just paraphrase the reading, evaluate it show that you're being critical and analytical. And through that they get a sense of your academic potential for for university levels for Cambridge, that you're not just memorizing a curriculum or memorizing a book. But actually, you're doing something a bit further, something a bit deeper. So that really is the difference, I guess, with who reads it between those universities. Podcast Host 08:43 So am I right in saying that? No, you only have one personal statement to write. So if you're applying to say Oxford or Cambridge because you only apply to one. And you also have LSE UCL, those kind of universities on your shopping list as well. Who should you address your personal statement to I mean, knowing that there's a little bit of a difference between the two approaches, right, should you say, Alright, I'm going to go hard or go home. I'm aiming for Oxbridge. And that's what I'm going to be pitching my personal statement to? Or should you take the more conservative approach and try and write the one personal statement that might strike that middle ground and appease everybody? Abbi 09:21 So we say to all students, or applicants make it an Oxford statement, because if you're if it's an Oxford statement, it will suit the non Oxbridge. It's just that the Oxford has that extra bit of depth, that extra bit of academic reading, but if you're not applying to Oxford or Cambridge, you don't necessarily need to have to get those spots. And so ultimately, the key thing for the whole one size fits all rule. One personal statement for all five choices is just making sure that your course selection is right that you're not picking vastly different courses that your statement is going to alienate one, but target another that if you are applying for slightly different courses, say you're applying for some politics Philosophy, economics GPA, and others just politics and economics. But your main dominating disciplines in there are the politics and economics but with a little bit of philosophy. And so that's really the only thing that you need to account for with the whole kind of one statement for all is just that you're not picking these very, very difficult choices. Podcast Host 10:17 Okay. Well, my next question is about formulas. Because often when it comes to statement writing, whether that be in the US or the UK, I think a lot of people like to start off by understanding the formula is their old kind of way of thinking that once you know the rules, you can break the rules type of thing. But is there actually a typical formula that most students would probably try and follow or emulate if they're writing a personal statement for the UK? Abbi 10:45 Yeah, I mean, so we see kind of what a typical successful statement looks like. And I mean, pretty much all of them have a very, very personal introduction. I know it's similar in the US in terms of having a really bold and impactful opening. So for the UK, that introduction, just needs to really give us a sense of why you're applying for the course. So the example that I give students is really what does it stem from? So not just my parents are lawyers, I want to study law. But actually, is there a debate that you've all discussed? And what was the debate? And what was the particular discussion point that you grappled with? or Are you frustrated by something, something really personal, I would say is a safe formula for that introduction, kind of moving on from that, I guess, main body paragraphs, depending on how long your paragraphs are, because the word count at the same it's so small for the UK, it's 4000 characters. So pretty much 600 words, it's tiny, is really making sure that those main body paragraphs still show depth, even if they're slightly shorter. So we usually say make sure there's a key interest in there, make sure there's some evidence of how you're going to be on the curriculum, and then make sure you've got some analysis, some evaluation of that evidence, what did you gain? You know, what was your big takeaway from the internship you did, or from the book you read, and then really just making sure that that conclusion ties everything together, but really gives a sense of what do you hope to gain from the degree? Have you got a career path in mind? Or really, what do you bring to the degree, so I really push all my international students to lean into their background, because that's what sets them apart from domestic students. So actually, having lived in maybe two different countries, or knowing five languages, what does that add to this degree? Why does that set you apart? And then I guess, in terms of the tone of the statement, the formula that works, is really just being authentic, being genuine. Having senses that aren't just plausible, but really a well conceived that we can see that you've put a lot of time and effort into coming up with the insights, and making that analysis. And a crimson, we have these fairly cheesy saying these five key pillars, but that really does work. And I know spiky pillars, you know, insight. Are you showing those takeaways? Are you engaged and curious? Is it well structured? well written or quality of prose? Is it personal? So only you could be the only feasible author? And then is it is it authentic? And for me, those five things really do work for students? Podcast Host 13:04 Love it. Okay. That's an awesome summary. Thank you so much for that. Abby. I feel like I, I understand, I've been working with Crimson now, nearly five years. And that's probably the best breakdown. I've heard of the personal statement. So thank you for that. How the personal statement might change, if at all, depending on the course you're applying to in particular, because obviously, there is a great emphasis, particularly at Oxbridge regarding the course, is true. So should that formula change at all? Like should you have, you know, if you're applying to a very technical subject, spend more time in your body of your essay talking about the technical sides of your application that you might want to bring to the fore? Or is it all you know, pretty much the same, no matter what chords you're applying to. Abbi 13:58 So definitely can change definitely. So that's, I guess what I've gone through is, if you like a kind of a general skeleton, a general structure, just that is that kind of basic level what it looks like, but certainly, so if you are applying for say medicine, something a bit more professional based or technical, there's different things that they look for. So they want to see work experience, they want to volunteering, they've got a list of kind of key qualities and selection criteria that students have to demonstrate. So you know, honesty or empathy or problem solving that need to be in there. And same really with with some other technical subjects, they engineering, they like to see practical application as well as the academic reading. So it certainly can, that basic skeleton structure can change. And also it really depends on the student's profile. So I work with some students where those three big main paragraph works really well, because a lot of their activities are reading links naturally with one another and there's connections to be made that make the paragraph flow rather than a list, but for other students that I work with, you know, They might have loads of different extracurriculars they've done, they've done an essay competition, they've done work experience, they've made a blog, that don't necessarily all link. And so it makes more sense for them to have slightly smaller paragraphs that are still coherent than try and shove everything together in one long paragraph that actually just doesn't make sense. So we can play around with that structure a little bit. And really, in terms of Oxbridge, the only difference is that they just want to see extra academic engagement. So we roughly say about 80% academic exploration. So that doesn't mean just curriculum, or just reading it might be you've done a research paper or an essay competition, but making sure you're showing that academic potential through your analysis through what you're saying and reflecting on, Podcast Host 15:42 I always like looking at the common mistakes that students might make. So in the personal statements case, what might they be is it maybe even as simple as exceeding the word limit or writing too short or going off topic or, you know, that whole idea of my parents are lawyers, therefore, I want to be a lawyer type of thing. Like, it's been kind of vague as to why students want to be there. But from your side of things, having worked with a lot of students on the personal statement, what do you see as being some of the more basic common mistakes that our listeners might be able to avoid? Abbi 16:12 So as you mentioned, cliches, the big one, I see that so many times, yeah, I've always wanted to be a doctor, I really want to save lives. And that's lovely. You know, we want everyone to save lives. But it needs to be a bit more unique than that, you know, three or voluntary hasn't been a particular patient you engage with that stood out to you and why? So that we avoid the sense of kind of, you're just being pushed into a direction. But instead, actually, you've chosen this direction, it's something that has been an educated choice. So definitely avoid those those kind of cliches. And with that, a lot of students tend to quote people I've seen most recently, actually, that they they think they need to, in reading academic material, use a quotation and actually you really don't you want to be use your own voice as much as possible, rather than using anybody else's. If you are set on using a quote, make sure it's sure and make sure that you don't just have put it in there that you actually engage with it, you know, why are you using the quote? What are the limits of the quote, you know, what do you think the quote, links are more broadly in the issues and insights of your course, the other thing we see a lot is listing, we see a lot of, you know, I need to tell you all my achievements, because they're really impressive. And I'm really happy about them. And that's great. But we don't want it to just be a long list that a tutor is having to read hundreds and hundreds of these that they just go right? Yes. So you want it to be engaging, you want us to get a sense of why these different extracurriculars are relevant to your course and how they build on one another, you know, did you gain different perspectives from different books? Did you, you know, gain a more practical application of doing something. And so the big thing we say, cheesy again, but really discuss don't list. So really get that evaluation with that as well. We say show don't tell. So don't just tell me something, Don't tell me you're creative, or you're critical, or you're independent, show me that show me through what you've done. And that you have those skills? Those would be the main things, I think, Podcast Host 18:05 right? Right. Well, this is an interesting one, because I would have liked to a thought that I was a good English student at school. I don't even know if that sentence was structured correctly. But basically, you get the gist. I thought I was a pretty good English student at school, I would get some decent marks in my essays, etc. is a student who is good at English at school, likely to be at an advantage when writing the personal statement? Or is it pretty much a level playing field because it is a piece of writing that is unlike the majority of pieces of writing that students are likely to engage with at school? Right, you know, you mentioning the quotes and those kinds of things. That sounds like, you know, the the structured essays that they're putting together for their, you know, school assignments in analyzing a text or whatever it might be. So yeah, there's the whole concept that this is a piece of writing that students don't typically engage with, there's a kind of level the playing field. Abbi 18:59 Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting question. I guess I guess it it does. I mean, there's some things you know, about structure, that obviously they're looking for that they want to make sure it's well structured. But it's it's well conceived that, that students are being complex and the way they're thinking, but I think that's an important distinction to make that actually, it's not about having complex convoluted language, because they'll absolutely see through that, that doesn't give you any advantage, if anything, it's just hiding and clouding what you're trying to say. So yeah, it's much better to be clearer, straight to the point direct, saying, I have developed a particular interest in this. Here's how. And so in that sense, I guess, yeah, you don't have to be the top of the English class to write the best statement. It's about the student who is genuinely engaged with that subject, and is talking them through what they've done that demonstrates that interest. So let me try and give you an example here. I had a student last year who applied for economics. English wasn't wasn't his first language, but he wrote an amazing personal statement that was so straight to the point I'm so reflective. I mean, he got an interview to Oxford. So one of his paragraphs, you know, he had work experience in a supermarket, which isn't necessarily life changing doesn't really lend itself naturally to these big analytical, maybe complex, convoluted arguments. But actually, it did, because he said, Look, while working at a supermarket, I noticed that items I level, they were sold most quickly. And he connected this to something you read about I level is to buy level and all about consumer spending consumer behavior. And so actually, yes, he wasn't the best English student. Yes, he didn't have English as a first language. Yes, he didn't have these outstanding extracurriculars that were academic. But the way he reflected on it and the way he wrote it was so direct, that what he was saying was, was complex, as opposed to how he was saying it, if that makes sense. So you know, definitely think that it levels the playing field in that sense. And, as you mentioned, it is unlike essays at school. So this is also why we say to really start this process early. Because the tone of it is completely unique to anything you've ever written before. And probably the only thing you'll ever write again, that actually as long as you take the time and rewrite and edit, and, you know, talk to your strategist or or talk to your teacher and follow those steps, that actually anyone can write a very, very good statement as long as they're being reflective. Podcast Host 21:21 Well, that leads me to my next question, roughly, how long should students put aside to write their statement? Abbi 21:27 Definitely longer than a week. I mean, I I wrote, I think I wrote like eight to nine drafts of my personal statement before I sent it. I mean, this really is a process of rewriting so. So I would say, you know, if you're applying for the early deadline, if you're applying for that October 15, deadline, you want to be starting in May or June, if you're applying for the late January deadline, maybe you've got a bit longer, you know, start in summer, July, August time is probably okay. We also want to think you want to submit earlier than the jam deadline, just because offers that are on a rolling basis, but separate issue. And so really, the reason we say to start early is because there's so much to fit into 600 words. And actually, I think the 600 words, 4000 character limit makes it harder, because you have to still be impactful and show depth and be analytical. But not just talk about one thing, you've got to talk about three or four things and get all your extra curricular and all your reading that you want to mention him. But a lot of our students are just like, how do I narrow this down? And so it takes a while to select what you want to talk about. It takes a while to draw connections so that you know which book which extracurricular belong in the same paragraph, which don't. So that takes some time. Then once you've written it, you might want to restructure the organization, which paragraph do I put at the top? Which is my best one? Where is my insight? A bit common? A bit, you know, generic? How can I deepen that? Do I need to read an extra article? You know, here, I mentioned sports, but I'm applying for medicine, you know, how do I make that relevant, or I need to go and read an article that looks at sports medicine. So it really does take a while to refine exactly what you want to say. And because of the short word count, and because you have to be as concise but as impactful as possible. It does mean that a lot of times, especially near the end, you're spending quite some time taking out those those last 100 200 characters without losing any meaning. And so that in itself can take some time, too. So yeah, definitely, definitely start early. I know that all teachers say that. But if you want this to be something that says to universities, and says to Oxbridge tutors, hey, I really care about my application I've really put the time in, they will be able to see that in the structure and the quality of your statement. Podcast Host 23:34 I really love what you did in the middle of that answer, which was kind of ask yourself those questions to get your statement to that next level, kind of that reflective questions. Is this too cliche? Is this too generic? Have I linked this properly to the course that I'm applying to? Do you have any other tips for that editing, drafting, rewriting process that students might be able to use no matter what I say that writing whether that being a personal statement or any other essay? Sounds like you've done this quite a few times. So I'm going to guess you'd have some tips for students, whether that's to read it out aloud from your side, is there any particular tips that you have for students are going through this drafting process? Abbi 24:14 With the kind of the narrowing the shortening the word count? I say to students, you know, you've said this in two sentence, can you say it in one? So I guess the question they can ask themselves, there is, I might say the same thing twice, but just in a different way. Because that's something that we see as well. Also, in normal essays, you can see that because you really want to make your point and you want to make sure that you're being compelling. You can actually say things twice over. And that's just a waste of word count. So that that's the first thing. I also say students, particularly for this idea about being personal being genuine. I get them to say right, is this sentence just plausible. So as a reader who doesn't know anything about me, they've never met me. They've never spoken to me. Is this sentence believable? So that's number one. Once you found out Yes, it's believable. It's plausible, then is it more than that? Is it actually well conceived? Is it something that's thoughtful, something that I haven't just said, I've done work experience? Let me prove that to you by telling you what department I worked in. But going beyond that, and saying, here's a meeting that I sat on specifically, this is what I learned, I guess is the other question I have, is this specific enough? Or could anybody have written it? And so especially talking about reading, because you know, a lot of these these big books that are on the recommended reading list that students read, you know, that's fine, that's fantastic. But imagine that another 100 students are reading that book, are you saying the exact same thing that they're saying? Or are you saying something different? And that can be a way of making sure that even though you're using really academic and rigorous reading, you're still standing out, you're still being that critical thinker? And also coherence wise? Does every sentence build on the one before? Do you have that flow, as opposed to just this stream of consciousness and thoughts that actually don't link? Is it very much a sense of right, this is a sentence that tells them my interest, this is the sentence that goes deeper, this is the sentence that provides my evidence. So it's really important that you get that sense of building blocks. So I get students to think about that, especially if they're mentioning more than one extracurricular or reading. It's actually a case of well, why are you mentioning both? How does one link to the next does one provide a different approach? Do they disagree? Do they agree? And then what do you think having synthesize the two together? So it's really about those building blocks that they can ask themselves about? Podcast Host 26:24 Well, you're certainly making 600 words sound a lot more complicated than it usually could or should be great when students think 600 word essay, they're like, Oh, yeah, easy, right. But there's so many questions that go into making a really good essay. And I think or personal statement in this case. And I think, and knowing those questions, and knowing how to reflect on the importance of those questions, and knowing what to do, when you find the answer to those questions, they're all the things that go into making a great personal statement. So from your side of things, do you remember a great personal statement? One that kind of jumped out at you I know, you mentioned the student who was applying for economics. But is there any other essay that you can think of where you read it? And it may have been the first time that students submitted it to you or may have been like a third or fourth draft or whatever it might have been? Could have been your own essay? Who knows? And it's a way you're like, oh, wow, they have just nailed this. And can you talk us through I guess, why? Perhaps that essay stands out to you. Abbi 27:25 You know, there's so many, because, like I said about it being like being an original being unique. There's so many times I've read a statement and just go, Wow, you've really understood the connections that I want you to make here. And so Okay, one from this year then. So I had a student who, like, Yeah, let's go for a nice car. So I had a student who applied for for anthropology at most universities, and then at Oxford, apply for it, and eventually has gotten into anthropology and archaeology, which accepts something crazy, like 40 students per year across all colleges, so it's absolutely tiny course. And I think what was impressive about this, the students statement was she never studied archaeology before or anthropology. So both were new subjects. And so what we really worked hard on was using, okay, what can be done in your curriculum that we think is relevant, say, in history or in English, that we can then use to help further your interest in in anthropology, archaeology. And one of the things we started with so one of her paragraphs, she started with Look, I'm deputy editor of my school magazine. And she spoke about the skills she gained, you know, the qualities, the analytical side of it. But then she went into one of these specific articles that initially, she started looking at, from a history perspective, a historical perspective. And then she thought, actually, maybe I can use this for my archaeology anthropology side. And I specifically remember coming to the meeting and saying to me, Abby, I found this ivory salt cellar. And I was like, Okay, cool. Tell me about this ivory salt cellar. And we ended up just having a chat, we ended up reading these articles, she went away, she looked at religion, she looked at culture, as you're at this amazing paragraph all about how this ivory salt cellar, could show us through material culture. The relationship between people in Sierra Leone and the Portuguese, I think in like the 1500, some sometime around then. And she spoke about African themes, Christian motifs, and the impact of trade on Coltrane, it was it was superb. But actually, what stands out most to me was that, once you've done that, once you drink this article for a school magazine, that yes, relevant to the course she's applying for it. In the end, she then had this fantastic sentence at the bottom that said, retrospectively, now evaluating what I did in my newspaper, here's what I would have added. Here's a perspective, I didn't have chance to include them. But I want to tell you about now. So she was showing these, you know, tutors that she done this amazing extracurricular, she done this incredible analysis, but there's still more to do. There's still more to be curious about. And she went and tried to start answering those additional questions. And I think that's a great example of actually you can apply to something you've not studied yet, and still be curious, analytical, engaged, and still managed to make your extracurriculars relevant and draw those connections between your cause And something you've done at school. Podcast Host 30:01 I love that anecdote. That was awesome. Thank you so much. That was great. I really, I really felt like I was reading along with you that student's personal statement. Yeah, it's great as a feeling, you know, for a tutor or mentor, to see a student absolutely nail something like that. You're like, yes, this is going to work. Right. That's a very exciting moment. Is there any other advice that you would give for students before we depart? Yeah, so Abbi 30:27 I think I might have said this earlier. But don't be a carbon copy of what you think universities want to see. Be an individual, find your own interest. And don't shy away from giving your own opinion. They want to know if you agree with a book, they want to know, if there was any limits, and maybe a project that you did, did you face a challenge, like you couldn't find the data you needed? Or actually, in engineering, you made a project that just didn't work? That's fine. So long as you talk about how you overcame it or retrospectively what you would have done differently or what you've learned from that process. Maybe you've learned perseverance. So don't shy away from that and do engage with what you're doing. And ultimately, go and explore go and do loads of reading, find out those niche result sellers that you want to talk about, because that is the things that you know if I remember it, that's also what a tutor will remember as well. So, so be memorable in that sense. Podcast Host 31:17 Abby, it's been fantastic having you on college chats for students out there who would like the opportunity to work with someone like Abby. On their application, there's going to be a link in the show notes to a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor. But otherwise, Abbi, enjoy your lovely day there in London, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

College Tips - Harvard Grad, Gabe Gladstein, on How to Stand out from the Crowd

#4 Harvard Grad, Gabe Gladstein, on How to Stand out from the Crowd

🗓 FEB 24, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Chats. I'm your host Alex Cork. And today I chat with Crimson Education strategist and Harvard graduate, Gabe Gladstein. We discuss how students can stand out from the crowd, especially as standardized testing requirements continue to be dropped, gave shares some fantastic examples of what past students have done, as well as giving his own suggestions on how you can start something today. Let's chat with Gabe bloodstain. Hey, Gabe, welcome to College Chats. It's awesome to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Gabe 00:49 Yeah, so my name is Gabe Gladstein. I'm from Santa Rosa, California. So that's Northern California, near San Francisco. I went to Harvard, I got my BA in government. And then I got a master's degree from the nearby New England Conservatory of Music, and music. And I'm a violinist, a singer and a songwriter. I live in Los Angeles, I've worked at Crimson for nearly six years now, I created our US admissions program. And I'm now the head of product development, which is super exciting. So I continue to work with students, but I also get to like design our new educational services and make sure that, you know, all of our services are on like, you know, the absolute forefront of kind of, you know, the industry broadly. Podcast Host 01:33 Fantastic. And what are we going to focus on today. Gabe 01:36 So today, I'd love to discuss what differentiates students in this day and age, and, you know, kind of what can create a great applicant, I think that with, especially this, you know, the COVID, and the most recent application season, which was really, really competitive, there's some confusion out there, for students about what they can do to really stand out the application process. And I think those things have changed over time. So what I want to talk about today is like, how do you develop a deep interest, which I think is the key to standing out? And then how do you build on that, you know, with your activities list, and, you know, your academic intellectual interests, to really illustrate to colleges that you are something special? Podcast Host 02:15 So what kind of qualities do you think top universities are looking for in applicants? Gabe 02:20 One of the things we're seeing more of an, like, expectations from admissions officers at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, but they're a big part of what they're looking for, is that flexibility. But it's not just like, you know, because I think some kids could interpret flexibility as being like, Oh, well, so I need to be well rounded, like I need to have, you know, a lot of like different things, you know, a lot of different activities or represent a lot of different skill sets. And it's not so simple as that, I think, what they want to see is deep intellectual engagement, and intellectual engagement is like, in a way, it's a form of like creative engagement. So it's, you know, investing time and energy into, you know, learning about one or, you know, maybe a couple things, but then it's developing your own takes on those things, it's developing your own insights and perspectives, you know, seeking out experiences in, you know, in those subjects or relating to those subjects or skill sets. And I think that's really like, that's what they're looking for, you know, they're not, I think the days of like, Oh, I started an app, and therefore, like, Harvard's gonna let me in, like, yeah, those days are sort of actually kind of waning, in my view. I think that, you know, so many kids now have tried to do that, and, and pursued that path that, you know, it's just, it's like anything, right? We in admissions are, there are cycles and things that are, like exciting when they're new. And then you know, that too many people do them, and they're no longer new, they're no longer the exciting thing. Like, this year, we've seen some amazing applicants come through Crimson who basically, like, saw that or understood that trend, and that change, and, like, anticipated it and adjusted and they, you know, they just this year, they this last year, but you know, big pattern that we're seeing is like kids training, especially Gen Z, I think is like really focused on, you know, General AI Community Services, not a broad enough term, it's really, it's more this notion of like, thinking about the well being of humanity. It's never like really broad. But it's true. It's like, the way that that kids are, are conceiving of their potential impact these days is like, so different. I mean, when I was in high school is like, you know, if you start a charity and like, raise $10,000, that's incredibly significant. And that's what is it like 12 years ago or something? It's completely different now, like the thinking around, like, what kind of impact can I have? And obviously, you know, this comes on the back of like, some really inspiring people like Malala and you know, Greta tunberg. And there are many sorts of kids who just like, you know, step into a huge international spotlight, but you don't have to be like them in order to have that kind of impact. And I think that that's, I'm sure that's part of what what you You observed. And part of what we've seen also on our end is like kids really embracing this notion of like, I'm going to do what I can, you know what I'm capable of, and give as much of myself as I can to doing some good. And you know, I'm going to find something that really sticks out to me, or that I can really understand around my head around, and I'm gonna explain to other people, it's movement building, but it doesn't always have to be on a big scale. And that's what's been, I think, really exciting for me to see recently, and it's hard, it's hard to make that change. But, you know, just in terms of like, what admissions officers expect, and how to do that in a way that feels personal, you know, to per each kid, rather than, you know, kind of contrived, and but yeah, I've been really impressed. Podcast Host 05:41 It feels so mature, though, right? Like that whole, that understanding that you are thinking bigger than yourself. It's not just thinking about the college admissions process and what you're going to put in your application. It's like, Who am I as a person? And what am I going to give back to the world, it's, it's, as you said, like, it's not about just creating one thing and saying, that's my ticket to college. It's creating like a holistic story that really portrays what you want to do not just at college, but possibly after college, that takes a whole lot of maturity, and I guess, long term thinking, is that something that you think students are usually good at? Or not so good at? Gabe 06:20 I think that your average student is probably not that great, that type of thinking. And I think it's, yeah, it's interesting, because there are some students we see who do this well, as a result of being really just plugged in to what is happening right now in the world or in society. And that's, I mean, you know, more and more, it's happening through things like Tick tock, you know, those types of mediums where, I mean, you'd be surprised, but Tick Tock is not all dance trends, you know, yeah, it's a, it's a lot of like, videos of very young people talking about extremely serious issues and their community and, you know, their community could be local, state, national, whatever it is, but, you know, often explaining them in a, you know, I mean, you know, the longest Tiktok video you can make is a minute. So, at most, it's going to take them a minute to explain a really complicated issue. There, there are a ton of great tech talks, where they like present evidence, kind of show that evidence for, like, how they came to this conclusion. And, and you know, where this problem that they're pointing out, often it has to do with the way you know, fundamentally, it comes down to the way a certain group of people is treated. And there's a real thread that runs through this generation of kids Gen Z, that I've just been, like, so impressed by like this thread of empathy and the desire to connect and understand in a way that I've always like, think I've always wanted millennials, like my generation to experience more of, and I just feel like it didn't hit us in the same way. But Gen Z grew up in this, like, really complicated world where they were exposed to these problems and what's going on in the world right away, like right off the bat, you know, I mean, from basically, as long as they can remember, right? They've had YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, you know, they've had all these, these different ways of connecting with what's going on in the world for us for my generation, like that happened a little later. And that difference, I think, is enormous. Because, you know, for us, it was like, we started with YouTube. And at the beginning, and Facebook at the beginning was all about us. It was all about like, Well, how do you feel? And you know, what, what, like video, what do you want to say in your like, you know, personal YouTube channel. And so I think that created a mindset for millennials have a little bit more sort of self centeredness. But Gen Z is like, I think often treats this very differently, there's a lot more concern for, you know, what is happening, what other people's experiences are. So that's like, to me, like, that's kind of the best, most natural way that kids can come up upon this perspective, is just by being tuned in to global events, what's going on in the world, it could mean reading the New York Times. And that's great. Like, that's a great way to learn to figure out but it doesn't have to me that it can really like it could be through the social media that they're all already using, but it's about how they use it. And look, do dance trends, like that's fun, like engage with these things in a fun way. I think any every student I work with, like, I always encourage them to, like, seek out the parts of these things that bring them joy. But but also think constructively. You know, think like, okay, where are the pockets on this platform of information that like, I want to seek out I want to find I want to find out what's going on in my community? How do I who's making the content? That's, that's like breaking some news or, you know, revealing some inequities in the world? And what can I do, the great thing about these tech talks is oftentimes, like, they'll end with some kind of call to action. You know, these kids like they're brilliant, the way they're thinking up, like how to make an impact even from just where they're sitting, you know, in their whatever their their family's house and whatever country and I think it's a type of engagement and it's seeking out, you know, that content and those opportunities to do something to have an impact. Podcast Host 09:54 What do you think about the academically brilliant student, right, because obviously, the satays The subject test etc have taken a significant backward step over the last year or so during COVID. And is there still a place for a student who just puts their nose in the books? I mean, obviously, not to the extent where they have basically no extracurriculars, or they would have some extracurriculars. But their primary reason for going to college or their primary card that they're going to play in the admissions process is academics. Is that still a card that students could potentially play? Or is that now No, no longer enough? Gabe 10:32 It's not enough. But to be clear, like, I don't think that academics alone have been enough for a good little while. Because I think even when I was applying to college, it wasn't enough to just be the best, you know, academically or in terms of your grades, you needed more than that. And I think that it's interesting to see as having the Subject Tests, I'm glad you brought that up. because historically, there have been these things like the Subject Tests, which are, I would what I would call like, low hanging fruit. So like very easy opportunities to show that you have some academic skill in a certain area, and those getting taken away, I think, is not necessarily a bad thing, actually, because in the end, I think what colleges really want to see is deeper engagement. And just, you know, taking the like biology subject test to prove that you did well, in your biology class, is not that interesting, right? It doesn't really tell them that much about you, but volunteering at your, you know, local, like marine biology, you know, Conservation Center over the summer, and meeting a scientist there, who you then work with during the next school year, and you end up like, you know, assisting some of their research. And that introduces you to somebody who ends up being a mentor and writes a letter of recommendation for you saying this person is like, brilliant, you know, next hope for marine biology. Like, those are the sorts of things that colleges are interested in. And then the thing is, like, what that really requires, it's not some kind of like, innate academic brilliance, that's the thing is like, that is less important than just sheer initiative like spunk, that's what they want to see. They want to, like, is this kid sitting, you know, in their room, hoping or waiting for an opportunity to come to them? Or are they going out and, and finding one, I think, when it comes to academically brilliant students, like, Look, I want to be clear, you don't have to start a charity, like you don't have to do some, some incredible, like, you know, community service project, or, you know, you don't have to be a genius artist, you have to be a genius at all, really, all you need to do is pursue something with depth, that's really what they're looking for is the development of a deep interest. And this is like a huge part of crimsons, non appier curriculum. So this is like how we work with students who provide strategy for them during the three years before they apply to college. It's thinking about, okay, how do we help each and every one of our students, it doesn't matter if they're aiming for Harvard, or they're aiming for a much lower rank school, we want every one of our students to develop a deep interest. A deep interest is basically something that you can talk, it could be literally anything, but it's something that you can talk about, like off the cuff, and you're so fluent in the subject, that you can make someone who has, like, no idea about this subject interested in it. So it's like, you know, it would be like if I started talking to you about like the Triangle Shirtwaist fire in the 1920s, in the United States, and I told you all the reasons why, like that actually led to the, you know, labor movement, and you know, for that reason, like, we have unions today. And you know, it's like, like just diving into one like particular element of something very deeply, very passionately, and then pursuing it. So it's like, you build that knowledge, and then you got to do something with that knowledge. And so I gave the example earlier, right? If you're like, interested in biology, you go and find a lab or you find, you know, somebody locally, somebody close to you who is doing something related to the field you're interested in. But you know, it can be anything like, I there's this great example that I love, that I think about a lot where so this girl was, we can call it, Rachel, she had a deep interest in teaching. And so she was looking for opportunities to get involved in ways that other students aren't. And that's the key initiative, right? So it's like, what is everyone doing? And if everyone's doing that thing, try to find something different. Like, that's really, you know, you want to differentiate yourself. And so she was looking around, okay, I'm really interested in being a teacher. What can I do now? I'm just in high school, what can I do now to engage with that interest. She discovered that teachers at her local elementary school so that, you know, school for younger grades, they had tons of tasks and chores that they were doing, you know, these teachers are staying hours after school, to complete those tasks on behalf of their students without any assistance. And of course, you know, school budgets being what they are, they didn't have any money to hire anyone. So there's no one to help them. And there was no structure for a volunteer program or anything like that. But she went to the school regardless, she went She talked to a teacher there. And of course, as you can imagine, right, that teacher was more than happy to have her help out. Because you know, the teachers totally overwhelmed. So every day after her own school is is over, Rachel would go over to the elementary school and help for an hour. And so that's like, that's the beginning, right? That's the beginning of something. Not everyone is doing that that's something a little different. And it's engaging with her interest. But how do you how do you go deeper than that? Even? How do you build on that? And of course, Rachel did that. So one day, Rachel was, was talking with with one of the main teachers that she helped teacher wanted to start, like an after school reading program for her kids. But of course, as you can imagine, she doesn't have time right now. She's a teacher, it's no time to start it. So Rachel decided to do the research herself and figure out okay, what are some like other after school reading programs that have worked at other schools, she read about it. And with the teacher support, she went presented to the principal of the school, here's the program, I want to start, you know, here's how I'd run it. Here's the curriculum, here's how kids will get involved, I'll do the logistics, you know, and the principal proved it. So the end result was she ended up running this amazing program, and an elementary school that was like, completely unique, that you know, didn't exist in her community and benefited these kids enormously. So look, that's not gretta tunberg. Right. Like, that's not some kind of international huge thing. And yet, that's incredibly unique and incredibly special. And, you know, I mean, that level of engaged, that's years of work, and that level of engagement and serious commitment to her interest. I mean, that's like she, you know, she's going to Harvard like, that's the, in the end, she she got into all of this school, she applied she's super, super successful applicant. So what I'm talking about developing a deep interest, that's really the kind of thing I'm talking about is like that level of focused pursuit. You don't have to be a genius. You don't have to be wealthy. It really like the I think, in general, the the requirements and prerequisites for that are pretty low, you just have to be interested, you have to be engaged, and you have to take some initiative, it's not just going to come to you. Does that make sense? Podcast Host 16:59 Yeah, no, it does. Absolutely. And I think it was a fantastic example, one thing that I'm interested in is that if students are looking around saying, okay, I want to differentiate myself, I want to do something unique. But realistically, I only know of students in my school and what they're doing, right, and there's not many other students, like say, for instance, here in Australia or elsewhere around the world, where there's not a huge amount of students kind of aiming for no yo IV leads, etc, right? It can be a bit difficult to kind of figure out well, what is everyone else doing? And how can I differentiate myself? Because you might say, Oh, look, I'm going to develop my own app, because no one else in my school is developing an app. But when you go to the Harvard application office, or have admissions office, there's a haich D students who have created an app, so you don't really stand out. So how would you go about as a student figuring out what is unique? What can differentiate yourself from the rest of the cohort? Or the applicant cohort? Is it like talking to a teacher who's been there for a number of years and may have more experience? Obviously, like, at crimson, we have a good overview of students from all around the world who are applying and kind of give students a bit of a leg up there for sure. But is there any tip that you would have for students to kind of figure out what exactly could be their niche? And how could they find that? Gabe 18:12 Yeah, I think it's a great question. So there compliances that, I think, first of all, you know, there's the first question of like, you know, and I've come across a lot of kids who are like this, who are like, I don't have a passion, like, I'm, I don't know, I want to do in life. I don't know, like, you know, some kids love music, some get, you know, but some kids just don't have that, you know, they they get to high school, and they're like, I haven't found my thing yet. And I think there's, you know, there's a thing that I call the passion myth, which is this notion that like, if you don't feel this somehow, like innate connection or innate love, for one thing, then you just like, don't have passion, you never will. It's just not true. That's not how anybody works. You know, I was fortunate, because my parents introduced me, like, I started playing music. When I was two years old, started playing drums. I started playing violin when I was five. So my parents basically helped music to become my passion, I had that advantage. A lot of kids don't have that type of advantage. So get to high school, and they just don't know what they love yet. And that's fine. It's not a big deal. When I'm talking about a deep interest, I'm not talking about something that you necessarily innately love or innately, you know, feel this connection to, it's just something that you have decided consciously, to learn more about to dive into, it doesn't need to be your career, like, you know, this Rachel example that I gave before, she doesn't have to pursue a career in teaching. After that. It could just be that she's interested in education during high school, you know, she can do whatever she wants, once she gets into college, and that's the advantage of going through us college. It's like, you can really do whatever you like. But the point being that like, developing a deep interest is really just about making a decision that you are going to like, basically follow, you know, kind of a winding path wherever it leads, but you have to be willing to take that risk, right. It costs a lot in time. cost a lot in energy to really pursue a deep interest. So I think that's where it starts is being willing to take that leap. And you know, again, a kid, you know, will say, Well, okay, but how do I even know what to take a leap with? And honestly, it's like, tell me one one thing that you learned from class during the last week, what's one thing that you learned? That was like interesting to you, and some kids will pull out a fact from math class, some kids will pull out a fact from science, some will say, Oh, I read this great thing in English, actually, that I really liked. And to me, it's like, all right, there is a starting point, which thing Do they choose? That really interested them? Oh, that interested you? Why? Why did that interest you? Like, what about that was engaging to you, and let's start diving in, like, let's see if that's a thing is that something that you know, has legs that you could really pursue. And again, like, it comes down to the student's own willingness to say, like, this doesn't have to be the end all be all of my life's passion, what I need now is something to build in some, some interest, some area that I'm going to build during these next, whatever it is, you know, high school years, three, four years, and you know, once I get to college, I can make any choice I want. But now I need to find the thing. Now, once you find the thing, then there's a question that you asked, which is like, how do you differentiate yourself from other people who are in that thing? I think Crimson plays a great role here. Because obviously, you know, like, I work with students who are all around the world. So even though my students in Australia may have no idea what my students in Vietnam, you know, are doing or like, what kind of stuff they're doing, I have an idea. So I can help like, you know, provide some guidance there. And, you know, research local opportunities. So that's where Crimson comes in. But if you don't have Crimson, or even with Crimson, like, I don't think that you need that type of perspective, in order to figure out my theory about a deep interest is that if you pursue whatever you are really interested in, like with intention, and via, like taking initiative, you will just end up in unique opportunities. Like I think if you were a student who you know, so let's we can take another example, right? Say your student is just like super academic, and you're interested in math, and you don't, you know, you're not super social. And so you know, you're not going to like necessarily go and volunteer, but you're really passionate about mathematics. Obviously, they're your standard extracurriculars, like the Olympiad, and those sorts of things which are international. And those are great opportunities. And I would highly recommend, like any student who's interested to get involved and that sort of stuff. But there are lots of other ways to and if you choose one area of mathematics as your deep interest, like, when it comes to math, or specific areas of math, there are a few experts in the world on most mathematical concepts. And so if I'm a student in high school, I'm, you know, I'm super passionate about what, and unfortunately, I don't know enough about math to even come up with an example here. It's not my field. But if I'm super passionate about one area, what I would do is I would go and look up like PhD students at a US college that I like, you know, okay, I'd love to go to you pen. So I go and look up like you Penn's PhD program in math, because I'm looking for, in particular, I'm looking for students, PhD students who are interested in like, some kind of, you know, high level algebra. Okay, so I go through the PhD list, and I guarantee you, there's going to be like one kid, you know, one, one student, one PhD student who's interested, I write him an email, that's the beginning of something, right? So it's, again, it's just about taking initiative, when I write that email, right, that's something that my classmates are not going to do guarantee. Like, that's just that they're not going to do that. Because, you know, they're not going to choose the same person at the same school. It's all about like, how much initiative Can you take? How much can you dig in, and kids need to be creative, you know, they need to think creatively. Like, that's part of what makes it a competitive application. And what I was saying before, is, like, admissions officers want to see that you really went above and beyond in your deep interest, they want to see that you pushed yourself intellectually, you know, you don't have to compare yourself to other students. It's really just like, you know, did you keep your heads at your head in your textbook? And you know, just like, do well on the LSAT, or did you do something more, you know, did you try to expand and build? Podcast Host 24:09 Yeah, absolutely. Is there any particular activity or place where students can put their time that you think is generally not worth their time? Because I've spoken to students who have like a marsay, violin and piano, and that's the card that they're going to try and play when they go to college. And my general feeling on that is like, Okay, great. You've sunk a heap of time, I'm sure a heap of time into music, but there's probably not necessarily a shortage of great violinists and great pianists who are applying already. So is there any other example doesn't have to be music, but any particular kind of activities that you think students generally sink too much time in? That's not overly productive in gaining admission? Gabe 24:54 The the broad answer is, I see students all the time, who will Like, basically join a club, and then just participate in the club at the, like baseline membership level, or even, you know, they'll take on some like, kind of lower level, you know, they'll become like the secretary treasurer of some club that when where they don't really do much, you know, there's like not not much responsibility, and they'll sort of hope that like that just the title of that position will like, give them some big advantage or whatever, or just being a member of such and such club will give them No, no, that just doesn't, it doesn't help that much. And the same thing goes for, like, the music thing of like, you know, while I, you know, pass the exam, and I got this certification or whatever, it's like, there are so many 1000s of kids who have done that. And, you know, if you're, if you're trying to apply to Conservatory, you know, okay, sure, you should check that box, right. It's just like the sap like, you know, you need to get a good enough score on the SAP, but no, college is going to look at your SAP score and be like, wow, we have to let that kid that's just not how this works, you know. So it's not a differentiator. And the reason it's not a differentiator is because so many hundreds of 1000s of students do this, they'll join a club at the base level, and just kind of be a member. And it's like, there's no, there's nothing there, you know, there's no substance there, unless it's really meaningful to them. And they've really contributed something big. So I still see this all the time where, you know, students will sort of be like, oh, in order to apply to be a successful applicant, I need to have a bunch of things on my extracurricular list. So I'm just going to throw a bunch of stuff at a wall and like, see what sticks. And so then when we get into when it comes time to put their extracurricular list together, it's like, yeah, I've been in this club for three years, but I've never really done anything, you know, we have a meeting a week, and it's fine, whatever. And I'm like, Well, you know, okay, well, tell me more, you know, did you ever go on a trip? Where did you organize something, you know, for the club? And it's like, well, you know, I did this little event, but you know, I didn't really care about it's like, Okay, why did you spend all this time doing all these different things you don't care about? Like, that's the problem for me is that students just try to do so many things. And they don't really care that much about them. So if I were to give one blanket piece of advice, it's stop doing things you don't care about. Like that is not what admissions officers are looking for. They're not looking for a bunch of crap that goes on a list. Because look, when they receive that, that's how they read it to, like, they can see when you're passionate about something versus when you've just done a bunch of things, because you thought that's what you had to do. They're not interested in letting kids in who do the latter. They want kids who do it, who do the activities they do because they love them, and they dig deeply into them. So when it comes to something like music, you know, you have this question of like, Alright, well, every kid's going to take those exams and get those certifications. So how do I differentiate? And there are like, a million answers, there are so many different places in, in individuals, local community where they can volunteer, you know, their time to teach music, to play music, for a benefit, you know, they could go to a hospital and play music for patients there, they could volunteer with a music therapist, or they could volunteer to teach kids at their local church on the weekend, you know, and those sorts of opportunities can build into something much bigger, you know, and those they can build into recommendation letters and, and, you know, mentors and connections and things like that colleges want to see like, Do you care about something that you're doing? And if you care, dig in, like, do more of that thing. Do more activities relating to that thing? Does that make sense? Podcast Host 28:28 Yeah, absolutely. No, it kind of reminds me of my days playing violin at the old age homes that I had around here in Australia, it's a bit of fun, they love it. Obviously, like COVID has thrown a curveball, I think in a lot of those activities in terms of access to these kind of opportunities. But you know, if you get creative is a good organization here. And that was started by some students in Melbourne called letters against ISO. And it was like students who banded together to write letters to people in aged care, to basically just kind of have pen pals to you know, try and make them feel less isolated in no time where it is very isolating. So Gabe 29:04 I have to say this is one of my students who started is Hannah. Yes. Yeah. I Podcast Host 29:09 didn't know that. That's, that's very funny. I didn't know he actually was your student. That's so Gabe 29:15 cool. And I I can take absolutely no credit for the site. Like this was all all her and she created this. It's an amazing organization. She's done just a fantastic job leading it. But yeah, she's, she's awesome. And that that organization is sent, like 10s of 1000s of letters. Yeah. You know, like hundreds of maybe 1000s of different seniors. And now it's in multiple countries. And it's just amazing what she's done. Yeah. Podcast Host 29:40 Oh, that's awesome. And I actually didn't know that she was your student. And I swear, that's not set up for anybody. No, that's very, very cool. Now, I want to still touch on the academic side of things because I think it'd be remiss of us to not at least address that whole idea of how students can further bolster their academics in the absence Since of the satays, and that kind of thing, I will just touch on that quickly. I know like a PS have been thrown around, we do that through CGA these days, and the students who are looking at you know whether they should really go towards IB or do extra a levels, these kinds of things. Obviously, like, as you mentioned, the extra curricular side of things, you know, if you're a biology student, go spend time volunteering in a marine Conservatory. And that's probably going to be much more impressive for those students aiming for biology courses. But from your point of view, without the LSAT, LSAT, Subject Tests, etc, I think a lot of students are going to be panicking a little bit, what would be your advice in that situation? Gabe 30:38 So, and I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it really does come back to this idea of like diving deeply into your academic areas of talent and skill. So we can start with some basics, you know, you don't have the sad subject test, how are you going to illustrate expertise in certain subjects, there are now so so many online courses, and really good ones, like through edX that you can take, and you can get certificates with them, you know, you can take a Harvard class and get a certificate, you know, through edX. And it's, it's rather remarkable, and I would highly recommend that students do that in subjects that are interesting to them. And I would say, like, aim to take maybe a couple courses that dig deeply into interdisciplinary areas of like that, with that, you know, hover around a common theme. So you know, for example, if you're interested in international relations, I would say, like, take a class on the politics of China, you know, take a class on how like, poverty can offset developments in, you know, burgeoning countries and economies take these classes where you can draw a thematic through line through the different classes, but they're not just all on the exact same topic. Because, you know, a big part of what colleges are looking for is like, interdisciplinary engagement with a general theme. So I love online courses. For this reason, there's online immersion courses from Columbia, these are amazing. They're actual certifications in things like, you know, technological subject coding, there's a great one, a certification from Cornell, that I've recommended to computer science students in the past, you could write a research paper on an academic subject that interests you, you know, to try to dig deeply into, you know, let's say you have a question on, you know, how to create a, like reusable water source, you know, in a, in a, like, village setting that doesn't have a lot of technology. And so you do research on like, what are the existing technologies that could be used, you know, what would be most functional, what's been tested, it's just a random example. But like, kind of engaging deeply in your academic subject, and then trying to publish it. And look, if you can't find a journal, and there are some journals out there for high schools, but if you can't find a journal, put it on medium, like, just put your writing out there, like, you can self publish, it's fun, make a YouTube video about it. Obviously, there's the like, you know, building legacy projects, things that's like apps, companies, you know, this is sort of a now a more popular method of like, illustrating your interest in something. So, you know, if you're super interested in healthcare, you know, building an app that helps people understand the local hospital system, and this, this low boss was particularly, you know, strong for, you know, this type of surgery, and this local hospital has a doctors and specialists in this or whatever, you know, I'm just throwing out kind of random examples. But I think the kind of overarching answer is like, there are a lot of ways to dive deeply into these, like critical subject areas that illustrate expertise, like beyond the SAP, or any standardized exam. And I think tests have always been the least interesting way of doing that. And so now that they're getting rid of them, it's like, for me, it's like, I'm not even I'm not that bothered, I think it's a good thing. You know, it'll force kids to think a little bit more outside the box, you know, actually, like, try to engage deeply with their, their subject areas, we pulled out a couple recommendations at the top, I think are great. Like, if you can take a levels, do it. If you can take AP exams, do it if you can take IB exams, do it. Like, these are all great illustrations of academic skill. But they're not the only thing. There are definitely other ways to do that. Podcast Host 34:17 Yeah, absolutely. But one thing that I am interested in as well is how should students tell their parents that this is a good use of their time, when a lot of parents come from and I was chatting to students like this on the podcast, like parents come from, you know, India or China or like, academically rigorous backgrounds, right? Yep. And then the child's like, Hey, I'm gonna go volunteer at the old age home, or I'm gonna join the Marine Conservatory. And then like, parents, like, what are you doing? Study please like if you're gonna get into Harvard study, and it's a it's a real challenge. So what would you say to students in that situation or to parents in that situation to kind of help them get on the same page? Gabe 35:00 Yeah, so typically what I say is, there is basically so so when I think about Harvard, okay, so let's just use Harvard as an example. Obviously Harvard, you know, is is like the top school, but let's use it as an example. There's something like 60,000 applications every year. So somewhere around that, like 50 to 60,000 applications every year, they had made about 2000 students. So, you know, incredibly competitive. And what you have to ask yourself as a student, and as a parent, you know, of a student is, is there any subject that I'm working in right now, where just my skill in this subject is going to be better than 50,000 other applicants, the best other students in the world? That's the question, because really, what it comes down to is like, at least 10, to 12,000 of the applicants to Harvard, are academically qualified to go there. So already, you have like five to six times the number who can actually get in, like, who Harvard has room for you five to six times that number, who were qualified. So academic qualifications are so far from enough, it's just not enough, because it doesn't differentiate you, you need that. And that deeper digging into your, your subject area, you know, that grade extracurricular, you need these deeper things, it's not enough. Now to be clear, you know, students who are actually aiming for top schools like that shouldn't sacrifice their, you know, academic, their grades, you know, for the sake of an extracurricular, if, if they find themselves slipping academically, I think that always you know, you need to be performing at the highest standard for yourself that you possibly can particularly, you need to be performing like, against your peers, you know, very competitively, because that's when colleges are looking, you know, they're really looking at you versus the rest of the kids at your school who are applying or the rest of the kids in your country who are applying. So, you know, they're looking at your academics in that context. So you need to make sure you're still, you know, being very competitive there, you don't want to let that slide. But it's just not enough by itself, and putting all of your time into getting all the perfect grades. Without any of that deeper, you know, diving into your subject areas, it's just not going to result in the success that I think parents and students really seek. So that's the key. It's that differentiating factor, and it's remembering, like, Look, just getting great grades isn't going to make me look different from all the other 1000s of kids who get great grades. Podcast Host 37:33 The stats don't lie at the end of the day, and I think if parents and students both on the same page with that, and we're like, Okay, then how do we differentiate ourselves? Okay, that's, that's the real key. Oh, yeah. It's been awesome having you on the college chats podcast. And if you'd like a chance to work with someone like a then by all means, jump into the show notes, and there'll be a link there for a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor, who will kind of help you pick your path potentially to the world's top universities. But again, thank you again for joining us on college chats. And yeah, I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Gabe 38:07 Yeah, my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me. Podcast Host 38:09 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes. For show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

College Tips - Comparing Your University Options: US vs UK vs Canada with Bryn Laxton-Coglon

#3 Comparing Your University Options: US vs UK vs Canada with Bryn Laxton-Coglon

🗓 FEB 17, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Check it out. Welcome to top of the class, hear from education experts and get insights from high achievers to learn how you can do the same get into those top schools ready. Proudly presented by Crimson Education, the world's leader in university admissions support. Hello, and welcome to college chats a series from the top of the class podcast. Today I chat with Crimson Education strategist and LSE law graduate, Bryn Laxton-Coglon. Originally from Canada and now living in Brazil. Bryn draws from his own international experience in helping you choose between studying in the US, UK or Canada. Let's chat with Bryn Laxton-Coglon. Hi, Bryn, welcome to College Chats. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself maybe about your background, where you studied and what you're doing now? Bryn 00:49 Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for having me, Alex. So to all the listeners out there, Hello, thank you so much for joining us. My name is Bryn. I'm originally from Vancouver, Canada, I was born and raised in a sleepy little suburb called West van to the west of Vancouver. And I actually I went to a French immersion school. So my school is actually primarily in French. And so sort of from a young age I because I kind of had that bilingual international kind of education, I always wanted to learn about new cultures and study abroad. So that seed was planted within me pretty young, especially with the French thing. I always had my eyes on Europe, and went to France on holiday as speaking French. So I knew that was where I was headed. And then sort of while in school, I developed a particular interest for the social sciences. So a combination of all of those things led me to study law at at the London School of Economics. And really enjoyed that experience that was amazing, surrounded by super intelligent people, and one of the world's most exciting cities, but decided that maybe law wasn't quite what I thought it was. So I ended up working in business management consultancy for a while, but kind of decided I want to have an impact and love to working with young people. So switch to education. And now I'm a strategist here with Crimson. And I help mentor students primarily applied to UK universities, but also sort of Canadian schools, US schools, even some, some Asian countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. Podcast Host 02:23 Wow. So you got like a kind of a wide breadth of experience going from Canada to London. And now being a crimson strategist, where you're helping students to apply to anywhere around the world, or mainly the UK, I guess. But you kind of get this really broad scope of it a little bit of everything. And, you know, with the French language as well, I'm sure that held you in good stead when you're kind of applying for the International bass roles occasionally. Is that right? Bryn 02:46 Yeah, exactly. And just to top it off to throw like another spanner in the mix. I currently live in Brazil. So as if as if I wasn't getting around enough, I live in Brazil, Crimson has an office here. And we have loads of students based on Brazil. So just a little bit more international flavor. Podcast Host 03:00 Do you speak Portuguese? Bryn 03:02 I speak Portuguese very poorly, but you know, slowly making progress. Podcast Host 03:07 And what are you interested in sharing with students around the world today? Bryn 03:10 So I was thinking today that we could spend a little bit of time outlining the sort of main differences between various countries, mostly focusing on US and UK, like, how does that application process work? You know, what is kind of studying in those different countries? Like, what is a great candidate in the admissions officers eyes of those various countries look like? So talking a little bit about the differences between US, UK? And I'll also throw in Canada into the mix, too, because I am a Canadian. Podcast Host 03:43 Right? That's fantastic. Well, I know, it's obviously a big challenge that students have they want to study at some of the world's top universities. And in that conversation, you almost always have some of the top universities in the US some of the top universities in the UK, and to a somewhat lesser extent, but always needs to be mentioned some Canadian universities as well. So what are some of the main factors that you think should go into the decision making process for students? when they're first off deciding? Can I apply to the or should I apply to the US or UK understanding that I know, you know, from my time at Crimson as well, we've had students who've applied to both as well, you know, who've gone into some places like Cambridge and Harvard, we had a student last year got into them another student, who ended up in Harvard and Oxford as well. So it's something that you can apply to both, but it is a lot of work. What would be your recommendations for students if they're trying to decide between the two? Great question. Bryn 04:33 I think starting with this idea of applying to both countries, I also have many students that are interested in applying to both and the students that tend to seek out that option are the students that are brilliant and motivated to go to a top university and don't necessarily care where that is. They want to have a rigorously challenging, stimulating intellectual experience, and they recognize they could get that in the UK or in the US. So for students whose main priority is just they want to be challenged, they want to have like a really fantastically, intellectually stimulating university experience, you know, then apply for universities across the bond. So for those students it's, you can talk about, but what I would recommend, because it is a lot of work is the students be a little bit more discerning with the choice of which countries they're going to apply to. So what I would say is that things that you should consider, firstly, it's kind of going to be like the the type of education that you're going to get, and that the US is famous for its liberal arts program. So if you're, if you're a student who maybe has a variety of interests, you know, you're a little bit interested in sciences, but you're kind of a literature geek as well. And you want the opportunity to explore both of those interests before really narrowing down on your path, the US is a great option, because of the liberal arts program, you get the flexibility to try a variety of different things. So if I have a student who's not entirely 100%, sure which direction they want to go, the US could be a great option for them to experiment a little bit more before sort of choosing the path on the same sort of theme here, Canada is really great for this as well, because they also have liberal arts programs. So if you if you don't want to pay the fees that the US has, or you're maybe put off by extensive extracurricular requirements, Canada could be a great option for you. And you still get the liberal arts experience for the UK, I would primarily recommend this to students who are really kind of academic and they know what their interests are. So as opposed to in the US, we've got this liberal arts kind of curriculum, you can do a variety of different courses. In the UK for most programs, you choose your course before you even apply. And you study that for three years. Yeah, occasionally, four, but usually the US or the UK is only three years. So you've got to be pretty certain that like, this is what you want to study, and you want to study only this thing. So if that's the case, you know, the US or the UK, sort of a fast track for you to really dive deep into your degree, become a specialist. That's what I did. You know, I wanted to study law, I didn't want to do it wait to do it as postgraduate degree in the US or Canada and the UK allied allowed me to dive right into my chosen career path. And so if you're interested in law, or medicine, or dentistry, or many of these professional programs that in the US and Canada are like postgraduate, you can do them right away in the UK, that's a huge advantage. Podcast Host 07:26 Yeah, I think it's a really good point that you make about going straight into something like law that you can do in the UK, which you can't do in the US. It's almost like with students, I think a lot of the time they view just the undergraduate experience. And that's as far as they're looking ahead at this stage. Do you ever kind of chat to students about thinking further ahead, whether they want to do post grad what that might look like? And if they were to study in the US, the post grad pathway might look like this? If they were to start in the UK? It might look like this? Or is that just way too far ahead to plan? Bryn 07:57 No, I think that's a super important question that students have to ask themselves, especially if they're interested in pursuing like a professional program. And they're deciding between the US and the UK, they have to say like, what kind of undergraduate experience do I want? Do I want to sort of get this like really rich intellectual experience, where I'm doing like many different things, and then eventually want to specialize? Or do I want to do that sort of right away. So it's important for them to have that idea. And if they, you know, even if they want to pursue this, like very professionally focused thing at the sort of undergraduate level in the UK, knowing that that doesn't necessarily determine what they have to do for the rest of their lives. You know, Case in point I studied law, and you know, worked in business working krimson. So if you if you want the flexibility and sort of our want to push your career decisions for graduate level sort of decision making us is great. But even if you decide to pursue them in undergrad at the UK, it doesn't determine what you do for the rest of your life. Podcast Host 08:56 For you personally, what went into the decision to go to LSE in particular, because you were mentioning that you were going to go to France potentially and then you ended up at LSE? Was there anything in particular that drew you to London, LSE is like right in the heart of London, was that part of the campus experience that you were looking for that went into that decision? Bryn 09:14 I left something out, I did took a gap year, and I moved, I moved to France and I got my romantic dream you're living in Paris and practicing French, but it was always my intention to go to university in an English speaking country. And so I actually applied to LSE I applied for a deferral for a year once I got my acceptance, went to France and had my phone and came back. And I chose LSE specifically because I love the social sciences and LSE offered this really unique opportunity to be surrounded like exclusively by students with very similar sort of research interests to me, you know, politics, government, international relations, sociology, philosophy, law, all of these things that I think are super interesting and LSE also gives you the opportunity through a course called the LSE 100 to like sample of like a couple of different other social science subjects. And so that was really cool. I got to take a couple sort of like intro sociology classes and intro politics classes. But it was mostly I chose LSE, because of this unique opportunity to be surrounded by other sort of social scientists at heart. Podcast Host 10:17 Yeah. Would you leave me to my next question? How much of this decision between the US and UK should be based on that kind of broad conceptual I want to study in this country versus this country? Or should it be more based on the university specifics like, you know, you got the opportunity at LSE to study around people who have the same interest. And obviously, that's a drawcard that not many other universities in the US could compete with at that same level that LSE could, I feel like a lot of students locked themselves in to like a mindset, or I'm going to study in the US, or I'm going to study in the UK. And then they start learning about these amazing programs at particular universities that might not be in the country that they originally intended to go to. But they've already mentally locked themselves into this pathway. And it can be difficult to change it, even if the carrot on the other side of the opportunity on the other side is really good. And they should probably take it. So what do you see is the balance there between like that country focus versus University specific offerings? Bryn 11:16 I think that's the, you know, the golden question that's there, I there's not really 100% perfect answer to this. And I think the best thing that you can do to sort of hedge your bets is just research a lot at the beginning. And you know, and this is really helpful. And this is I think, where Crimson comes in is that I do a lot of work with my students, helping them decide, you know, where what the best fit is for them, whether that's in the US or the UK, or whether that's a particular program at a specific school. So definitely doing as much research as you can. I think the first step is to like sort of what we said, you know, is, are you more interested in this sort of, like broad based liberal arts try a bunch of different things? Or do you really want to specialize, but even within that, like the UK offers a lot of really, really cool interdisciplinary courses that allow you to try like a couple different courses, the the most, maybe famous, being the politics, philosophy and economics at Oxford, their flagship course, you know, other ones are like human social political sciences at Cambridge, which is kind of a mix of like anthropology, international relations, etc, even Natural Sciences at Cambridge would allow you to do sort of, like all of the hard sciences, so biology, chemistry, physics, so you know, don't right off the UK, just because, oh, you maybe are interested in a more interdisciplinary course, there. Is that still within the UK? So yeah, you can't just say okay, no, I wanted to do ask because I can do liberal arts, you still have to take that next step, and do research into the specific institutions and programs because you might just find sort of the the perfect thing for you. But generally, it's a good sort of directional place to start of like, you know, what kind of education? Are you looking for interdisciplinary, or sort of more academically directional focused? Podcast Host 13:04 Yeah, well, it's a tricky one. And I know that, you know, your research depths probably go far beyond what a lot of other students and we could probably do another whole podcast on the topic of university research, which is something that I might hit you up for eventually. But let's chat about candidacy. Because I know a lot of students are saying, Okay, I'm, you know, a solid high school student I'm doing, you know, getting great grades, getting good extracurriculars under my belt, that kind of thing, where should they start positioning themselves for a particular country in terms of their profile and their application? And how do they know which one they're more likely to get into? Is there any way that you kind of hope students determine based on their profile where there might be a better fit for? Bryn 13:42 Excellent question? And actually, in reality, I should have answered your previous question by saying your extracurricular profile, which is a great sort of indication of which country you would be better fit. Yeah, because sort of exactly as you say, the University sort of requirements in the US and UK are different, they're looking for different types of people. The UK is looking for a scholar who has a very clearly defined area of academic interest, and has a lot of sort of research and, you know, experience within that narrowly defined sort of academic subject that they can showcase that university to prove like, you know, I am interested in biology, I have won national competitions in biology and research in biology on top of my biology class, and thus, you should let me into your biology but very focused, very focused, yeah. Whereas if you have a very focused, scholarly academic profile, probably the UK is a better direction for you to start looking into. Whereas the US they're looking for, you know, leaders, they're looking for people with, you know, a variety of different extracurriculars across, maybe some sports, some arts and community service, where they have shown like, you know, over time, a commitment to these things, as well as like Really big depth and impact. So if you are someone with like a variety of interests, and you know, you're kind of a go getter, and maybe you're on Student Council, and you founded some activities, and and you've got these, like, you know, yeah, founder level kind of things to showcase. Yeah. Last will love that. Whereas Unfortunately, the UK will be like, okay, that's fantastic. You've started this club, we don't really care that much, because you're applying to engineering and we want to know, like, have you done any research on engineering? Talk to us about Yeah, not your charity club. So and, but it's important to know that like, students don't often just have this naturally, you know, people don't have a track record of, you know, experience related to engineering right away. This is stuff that you have to intentionally cultivate. If you don't even feel like you're heading in either direction just yet. That's okay. You know, that's the work that you have to do. And that's where Crimson comes in, and helps a lot too, because we do a lot of that work with our students and help students who plan and create that, Podcast Host 15:59 Yeah, I love that, that it's an intention that you have to have, when you're trying to gear up towards this application process. I think some students feel as though it's kind of like gaming the system a little bit that they are working towards founding these organizations with a box ticking a little bit, they're like, Oh, well, I guess I got to do some volunteering, or, you know, do some volunteering, because that's what my application needs, etc. But really, as he said, like, it's that long term commitment. And beyond the six month stint in, in volunteering, you might be doing it over a two or three year period, on a, you know, probably less hours a week or less hours a month, even, but just as a longer kind of term impact project. So people can see that dedication. Right? Bryn 16:37 Exactly. And I, you know, I want to almost push back against all the people who are saying this is box ticking, and that I think that's a really cynical way to approach this process. In the first for example, extracurricular development for UK universities, some people might see it as, okay, you know, unbox taking and learning about the subject, but I really choose to see it as like, you know, listen, this is something you're going to be studying for three years at university, and you're probably going to be dedicating your career to afterwards, like, you got to make sure you really love this. So let's find something that you love, and that you're really passionate about. And let me help you explore this. And it should be a really interesting process. You know, for my students that are applying to UK universities, I'm helping them, you know, research essay competitions on topics they think are really cool, and they actually want to write about, and I'm helping them create reading lists for books, and like scholars and academics who, you know, they are excited to read about, and you know, a lot of their friends might think like, Oh, you know, you're kind of you being a nerd, and you're lame, and you're sort of reading on the stuff. And so you might be dissuaded from like picking up a book on something you think is interesting. And that's, that's what I think is cool, though Crimson is I'm here to say like, actually, no, like, you have an interest. And let's explore that. And, and that's a really cool opportunity. So for the UK, we focus a lot on, like, really digging into the passion behind the subject and allowing that to come out and explore that. And for the US, it's slightly different. Again, it's not a passion related to subject, it's a passion related to impact and problem solving. So again, you could be cynical and say, Okay, I'm gonna found a charity to, you know, tick a box. Or you could say, like, Listen, you've got, however many years four or five years in high school to where you got free time, you know, you don't have a job or anything yet, you can have an impact here, like you could really see problems in your community that align with your interests, and find ways to use your special talents and your unique abilities to to solve those problems and create impact. And, and so it could be box ticking, or it could be like, Listen, you're a smart, talented person, and you've got potential and let's how do we put that to work, and really help you accomplish great things. And all we're trying to do is channel that into an application. So the application secondary, initially, it's about, you know, how can we figure out ways to unlock your potential. Podcast Host 19:03 It's like building experience for a job, right? It's a similar kind of thing. You know, if you see your dream job, it has these kind of requirements along the way. And it's the same kind of thing as the application process that wanting to know that, when you apply, you're going to have these kind of a set of experiences instead of schools that will make your experience at the college or at the university. And even better one, where does Canada fit in all this? Bryn 19:25 So the reason I've sort of been quiet on Canada thus far is not because they don't have great universities or that's a great place to study. All of those things are true, but because just the the application process to Canadian universities is less competitive, less intensive in terms of the demands of your extracurricular preparation, etc. So Canada is it's a like a liberal arts style program, like I said, like the US, but you don't have to do any of the standardized testing and the extracurricular requirements are pretty relaxed. So it varies a lot depending on the school. That you're applying to, you know, unlike the US and UK, which have kind of common application style programs, Canada, the you know, the application varies a lot depending on what school you're applying to, and what province it's in. So like, I'll take, for example, the three most popular schools, so UBC University of Toronto, and McGill, all have entirely different applications. So you have to submit three applications for each. Starting with UBC, it's like the most holistic one, they've recently implemented this kind of application where you actually have to write many essays about your extracurricular activities, and they ask you some sort of like insight, prep questions, we've got to like, reveal a little bit about yourself, it's much less intensive than the US, you don't have to submit like an activities list with 10. programs, I think it's only five. And and just generally, it's much more about trying to understand you and less about tell us how you change the world. Yeah, the expectations are a little bit less. So maybe a bit of a better choice for people who aren't feeling so crazy competitive, like they want to go to the top us schools. In terms of the other Canadian schools, University of Toronto and McGill, very little extracurricular requirements, the guild actually has none, you just submit your grades. If your your grades are high enough, you can get in sort of University of Toronto, they will have for the most part, you don't have any extra curricular requirements. But some programs might have some essays and things like if they're sort of more competitive, but for the most part for u of t, and Miguel, very little extra curricular stuff, mostly great focused? Podcast Host 21:36 Well, when we are talking about grades, I'll just throw this curveball at you because it's been an issue that we've had to combat here in Australia, in that the national curriculum that Australian students generally set the a TA or VCA, HSE, etc, etc, depending on which state you're in. A lot of students don't know that they can use that to apply overseas, they say, well, it's a national curriculum, I can only use it to apply to Australian universities. And it kind of blows their mind a little bit when I'm like, Oh, actually, you can apply overseas like, it's just as accepted elsewhere, as it is here in Australia. So is there any benefit, though, to any particular curriculum, if you're applying to the US, UK or Canada? Or is it all fairly equal? Bryn 22:15 That is a curveball question. And I think you'd have to be like a proper admissions officer at your particular school to answer it with absolute certainty. Yeah, but I think my short list short answer is no, you can apply to anywhere in the world with any curriculum, and you should not feel like you're being held back. Because you feel like you don't have the right curriculum. I applied to the UK with a Canadian national curriculum, I help students from all over the world, and a variety of different curriculums apply to other countries. And it's, it's not a problem, it's more complicated than to translate your entry requirement, you know, whether your grades meet this kind of foreign systems entry requirements, and it's definitely more complicated. But it's, it's not like necessarily a disadvantage. You know, if you come from some countries with very remote and obscure education systems, you know, you might have a hard time getting those recognized. And some top universities I know, like, for example, Oxford and Cambridge, they actually don't accept applicants from some countries, because they don't actually deem that those, the education that you've received in those countries is equivalent to the UK. So a problem I have with some students is that the South African National Curriculum can't actually apply to Oxford, Cambridge, with the South African National Curriculum, you have to take like a levels or something. So that would be the only big obstacle is just confirming that the university is going to accept your curriculum, but for the most part, I think it's just Oxford and Cambridge that don't accept it, because they're a bit snooty. Podcast Host 23:39 And quite particular. Yes, Bryn 23:41 they're very particular. But for the most, I mean, always check with your universities. But really, aside from Oxford, and Cambridge, I haven't heard any other students having a problem. I just want to say IB and a level are by far the most common and accepted, you'll have the least problems applying with those, but you shouldn't feel held back. Podcast Host 23:57 Well, Brian, is there any final words of advice for students, if they're looking at the US, UK, Canada, they're interested in international study, but not quite sure where that might take them? What could their first step be to investigating this a little bit further and kind of helping them make a decision? Bryn 24:12 I think if you're at this point, and you're trying to decide which direction Am I going to go what's right for me, we talked a lot about, you know, the academic sort of programs and requirements and liberal arts versus focused, but I think also like taking a step back and really reflecting on like, what kind of university experience do you want? You know, do you want to be at a really sort of small close knit liberal arts school somewhere in California? Do you want to be in like the beautiful gilded halls of Oxford and Cambridge, you know, studying a subject you're really passionate about, like thinking kind of more holistically, just about the wider experience that you're going to get at university beyond the classroom. So not forgetting to think about things that aren't necessarily academic krimson has a super handy spread We've got 13 factors that you should look at when you're considering universities, you know, climate size, cost programs, all these different things. So we talked a lot about the academics, which I think are a super important thing. Yeah, making sure that you're considering every experience every part that's going through lived experience. Podcast Host 25:19 100% agree, I think it's fascinating. You know, in my time at crimson, I've come across students who are at universities now or have gone into universities in the past, and it's a university that they originally had never considered. And they get in and they love it, because it does meet a lot of those factors. It is the climate they're looking for it is the size they're looking for. It's rural or urban, or it's like has particular programs has particular professors has a different cultural vibe. So I you know, university research is such a tricky thing. And that's why I'm saying we could probably do a whole nother podcast on it, because even when I like took a group of students to the US on a college tour, we went to a lot of universities on the East Coast, a lot of universities on the west coast. And going in a lot of the kids said, Oh, Harvard. Yeah, I really want to go to Harvard like I'm so what visiting that kind of thing. And we visited all the universities. And at the end of the tour, their answers were completely different. Maybe one girl said, Yeah, you know, I'd still like to go to heart, but really, other girls were like, Oh, no, I felt like a real connection to brown or I felt a real connection to Yale, or I really love the experience at Columbia or UCLA or whatever it might have been like, we went to a lot of universities. And I think that's the the fascinating thing that you know that the vibe or the atmosphere can really be so hard to research because it's like this kind of intangible aspect of the university that you can only really get from talking to students or visiting campus yourself. Bryn 26:42 Actually, one thing, one positive thing to come out of this Coronavirus is that a lot of universities, especially in the UK are offering like virtual open days and tours and stuff, that might actually be a good way for you to ensure students to check out universities and take advantage of this pandemic. Because usually this these opportunities are not available to you from your home. But definitely, you know, think about the the cultural fit as well. You know, Europe is so different from the US, even the UK, the North versus the South. And I mean, I won't even get started about like all the differences between the US states, so, so making sure you're thinking about all of those things as well. Podcast Host 27:17 Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Brian, it's been awesome having you on for students who are interested in working with an amazing strategist like Brynn going to leave a link in the show notes there for a free one hour consultation with a lovely local academic advisor to kind of help you figure out your first steps. And if you want to be a crimson student and potentially get the chance to work with our French speaking Brazil, living Canada born, LSE graduate law student even kind of look like Ryan Gosling. I mean, I know it's a podcast, but I'm sure you've been told that before at some point, right. Bryn 27:48 I have been told that before. Yeah. Podcast Host 27:53 Take it as a compliment. You know, he Ryan Gosling's got some good props. So now if you want to have a chance to work with someone, like Bryn, for sure, fill out that form in the show notes. And we'll have someone reach out to you for that one hour consultation if you request that. So Brent, thank you so much for joining the college chats podcast, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Bryn 28:13 Awesome. Thank you so much. Podcast Host 28:15 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#33 How a 15 year-old Started a Revolutionary Global Organisation Using These 3 Steps

🗓 FEB 13, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:19 I'm your host Alex Cork and today I chat with the 15 year old founder of BZBUCK and California based student, Komal Vij. Komal started BZBUCK to teach a career oriented curriculum for students of all ages. The organization has now boomed with chapters around the world and nearly 10,000 students learning from his back. In this episode combo takes us through how she got started, the challenges she overcame, and the three steps to take so you can start your own organization. Let's chat with Komal Vij. Hi, Komal, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Komal Vij 00:56 Well, thank you so much for having me. My name is Komal Vij and I'm a sophomore at Mountain House High School in Mountain House, California. And I'm excited to be chatting here with you today, Alexander. Podcast Host 01:07 Yeah, absolutely. Well, sophomore, what does that mean in terms of age? Komal Vij 01:11 That means 10th grade. So I'm currently 15 years old. Podcast Host 01:13 And we're here to chat mainly about your work with BZBUCK, can you talk to that a little bit and what that's all about? Komal Vij 01:21 Right. So BZBUCK is my international organization that makes career and technical education accessible to students from all backgrounds from all locations. And so we have chapters around the world where we introduce the fields of entrepreneurship, marketing, finance, business, administration, and more. So we really do go into those skills that are crucial in life, right that many schools miss out on, and it's starting to get there. But yeah, I started this one, I realized that this was a real problem, right? Even though we're almost there, many, many schools still do not offer this to students. So that is where this idea sprouted from. Podcast Host 02:04 Yeah, like it's been a long standing issue in education, that there just isn't room to teach these kind of life skills. And it's great that this bag is addressing a lot of that. Can you talk me through I guess, what are some of the main you mentioned entrepreneurship, but as terms of like financial literacy, or what are some of the other main kind of goals of this bag to help kids with? Komal Vij 02:24 Absolutely. So we have several projects, which all kind of address specific things. If you look at, you know, the business world, it's a huge term, right? It could mean anything. So we actually allow students to kind of pick and choose what they want to learn specifically, say if a student wants to, you know, if they express interest in the entrepreneurship field, if they say that this is something I might want to do in my future, right, this is something I might, I may want to do. So in that we kind of offer everything that you would need to know, to be an entrepreneur. So like all the basics. So obviously, that would include things like marketing and finance, if you are an entrepreneur, you have to know all of that to be your own boss, you need to be able to manage everything. So we go into that. Some students also kind of choose to just go specifically in marketing, if maybe instead of starting their own business, they want to work, you know, a corporate job in marketing, or if somebody wants to go into finance, so we have different levels in all our fields. So like, especially in finance, a student can choose whether they just want to go for financial literacy, or if they actually want to reach the level where they can pursue a career. But mainly, we would look at the basic literacy levels, what is something you would genuinely like you what is something you would need to know, to pursue a career, you know, something where all the skills combined, puts you ready to just launch yourself in the workplace. So that's what we work on making accessible to students. Podcast Host 03:51 That's awesome. I mean, it sounds like that organization should already have existed, you know, so you're coming up through high school, and you're kind of seeing this gap. What was it that kind of generated that motivation for you to be like, hey, this organization that I thought should exist, something that addresses all these pain points, is not necessarily there. So what did you see in the education landscape that was attempting to address what you are now addressing, but wasn't quite there? Komal Vij 04:20 So as it all started with the same question that you just said, this should have been there a long time ago. Um, so I think, you know, when I started this, I could walk us through like a three pointer thing on how I started this organization, right? I started with, you know, one finding an issue, what is the what is the problem here? And so, I didn't start off saying, I want to start an organization. Let me think of something to start an organization with, I started with looking at this problem, and I was like, Oh, my God, this is a huge issue. And it's not just in a specific location. It's not just in a specific age group. It's, you know, very widespread issue. And so I think it started with that problem where I started to kind of look at the depth of the issue. I've heard people talk about, you know, schools don't touch on this enough, I've heard it. But this is when I, you know, kind of sparked my interest. And I think that is something that's very important, especially if high school students want to start their own initiative. If it doesn't really spark your interest, it's definitely not worth it. Because not going to want to work towards that goal. But so I saw this issue. And then the second step, you know, that I addressed was, does this exist, which most of the time, yes, something will exist to fix this issue. But I researched and I researched, and I researched and nothing quite like this existed. And yes, there are several organizations that touch upon it, like, you know, deca, fbla, Model UN, but they have restrictions in the sense that it's only offered to ages or grades, you know, nine through 12. And so that's when I was like, why isn't there anything setting a foundation earlier? Right? Why can't we really set that strong foundation earlier. So when we do reach high school, it's merely an extension so that students already know what they're doing. You know, obviously, the earlier you start, the better you will be at it right, the more comfortable you will be. So that's when I realized that there's nothing like this, this is something that I really want to do. This is something that I want to see happen. And so then again, the third step was, how will I get from point A, where we are right now to point B. So obviously, we have tons of problems in our world, and many of them we can't fix, right? So coming up with a problem is one thing, but actually coming up with a vision and being able to execute and coming up with a plan. I think that's definitely the most important part. So once I did the first two things, I came up with a plan, right? And not just a short term plan, I came up with a long term plan of if I want to do this, what are my resources? You know, what am I going to ask for help? What is the structure of how I'm going to help students? how, you know, what is the location boundaries? What are the age boundaries. So all of that is when I think when you build a very strong structure, it minimizes how many challenges you'll face in the future. So that is one of the things that I really would like to emphasize on, especially if any other high school students want to start their own initiative, follow these three steps. Podcast Host 07:22 I love it. That's so clear. And we'll definitely go into that third step more, because I know that's like a whole, you do a whole podcast in that third step, right. But what's the timeline like from that idea to where you are now, Komal Vij 07:34 so it's not something that happened overnight, obviously, especially when it's such a widespread goal. And it's, you have to pave your own path, right? It's not like, there's a preset instruction manual for you, or, you know, someone telling you what to do. This is something that was definitely challenging, because I'm trying to figure out how to reach my goal. But alone, right. And so this actually started a long time ago, when you think of the actual origin of it, where my this, you know, when it sparked my interest was a long time ago, I was probably seven or eight, when I first realized that it was a problem. So I was very young, obviously, you know, the actual organization and everything came later. But yeah, the actual origins was a while ago, and throughout the years, I've just been really exploring it, because instead of just, you know, taking action right away, I wanted to, I wanted to make sure that I know what I'm stepping into. And I wanted to make sure I understand the problem. So I have been looking at this issue for many, many years. And I'm lucky to have parents who are also, you know, heavily involved in the workplace, and who can also see the gap between this education and, you know, just throwing students into the workplace after high school or college. So I also got some exposure through there. But yeah, I've just been looking at this issue for a long time. And obviously, as I grew my understanding of the issue it you know, it got deeper and deeper. And so at one point, it reached or reached that depth where I understood that, okay, now I can do something, I have the resources to do something. And so that's when it started. But generally, I have been watching this for a long time, I didn't just wake up one day and say, Oh, I want to do this. Podcast Host 09:19 Really interesting. You had the idea when you were seven or eight. I mean, that's starting very, very early. But I guess when you do have that initial Spark, when you're that young, it does mature over the years, and it's fantastic that is now coming into fruition with this book, but I'm interested in there is two barriers that I think a lot of students have to starting an organization, one's knowledge, one's age, and it's just understanding like, Oh, you know, do I have the knowledge to do this organization? Or am I old enough to do an organization like this? Because I think a lot of people have that preconception that in order to start an organization, you need to be either an adult, at least need to be like 17 or 18 in the final years of school so you can have that quote unquote leadership role, whatever it might be, but what was your kind of approach to this? Did you feel any of those barriers, as you started to turn this idea into an organization or did none of those barriers really come up for you Komal Vij 10:11 100% age has been something that often feels like a very strong fence right in front of you something that restricts you, and I think a lot of the time, people don't see the potential, you know, beyond just that number. And so that is definitely something that I, you know, this is something that I was genuinely interested in, this is something that I wanted to change. But looking at my age, a lot of people were like, you know, how are you going to do that? So it's definitely not been a piece of cake to just get out there and say, you know, I'm young, but I'll do it, right, I think a piece of advice, I would say, is just thinking about it isn't going to do it. If you are genuinely interested in something, and you have an idea of how you want to put it into action, do it, I think you should do it. And maybe you know, maybe the application doesn't quite match what you were thinking, I think whatever you can get your hands on whatever exposure, do it right. So if you're interested in a specific topic, maybe find a professor at a local university who is researching that, or, you know, however small, however big maybe sit in on a corporate meeting, and you know, they might be discussing something you're interested in. So I think it all starts with the willingness to put your foot out there. And just begin, right, if you keep thinking that I don't know how to do this, I want to make a huge organization, I want it to be, you know, international, I want to reach this many people, those are setting goals before you even kind of put your foot out the door. Right? So I think that is definitely one thing I did. It was just this is something I want to do. And I'm just I'm going to start. And so this organization wasn't even meant to be an organization. I didn't think you know, oh, I want to start an organization, what will it be? This started as something I wanted to do. And I said, You know what, I'm not really sure how to do it yet, but at least I can do it in my community. And so people you know, I met every day or younger students in our elementary schools, I started locally, I said, if I can make a difference locally, that's still a difference that's better than sitting in my room and dreaming about a huge organization. And I think that's a pattern that I've seen in many successful student led organization, or many organizations in general, that the person who is interested in making a change or making an impact, they kind of they begin one day, right? And so you can't I don't think you can ever reach what you're dreaming of until you actually start. So that would be one piece of advice that obviously that that I dealt with. But in terms of age, again, a lot of our boundaries are self set, right? So before, even if people weren't telling me, oh, you're too young, I would feel that sometimes I would be like, Oh, I'm too young, maybe I can't do this, maybe I can't do that. I think that is something that maybe if other people are setting restrictions on you, you can't change that. But you can change the restrictions that you're setting on yourself. So I think the most important thing is looking at your resources, looking at the situation you're in and making the best possible thing out of it. Right. So that's what I would say, Podcast Host 13:20 awesome. Well, I love that idea of taking that first step. And I'd like you to take us back to when you took that first step. Was it like creating a flyer? Or was it create, you know, telling a teacher like, Hey, I would love to teach an after school class? Or was it kind of talking to your friends and saying, Hey, you know, who would be interested in this kind of thing? Like, what was your very first step from turning it into action? Komal Vij 13:44 I think my first step was when I came up with a mock lesson. And I went to the principal of a local elementary school, I set up a meeting with her and I said that here, this is something that I've come up with. And I want to know if you'd be interested in incorporating this into, you know, the lessons for some of the younger students. And they actually have this thing called genius hour where every week they have, you know, a maybe like an hour where they devote time to investing in their futures. So other than just the core subjects, what is something you're interested in and kind of developing the interest? So what I came to offer to her was, this is something that I think some students would be interested in. And that was my first step. And obviously, that that is kind of a huge step, right? It's more than just starting a little flyer, you know, something else, but I just I started right, I took that step. And I was like, this is something I have, what are your thoughts? And I didn't show up genuinely knowing that I had the best lesson plan or anything. I just, you know, I generally came to her and I said that this is what I have. What do you think, what are your thoughts? Is this horrible, right? So I had that meeting with her and she was blown away. She loved it, and she Incorporated. So ever since then, the local elementary schools, they've been using our lesson plans. And I think that's when it started. And so again, I didn't mean for any of this to get this big, it started, people loved it parents loved the exposure that their students were getting students, you know, devoted students loved it, they were like, I, you know, I want to keep doing this. I think a lot of students have so much potential, but sometimes they don't have the opportunities to express them, right. They're too busy in their daily schedules and their school and their sports, where they don't, they don't even have the opportunity to maybe some of them don't even know what they can do. Right. So I know one time I met a student, and they were like, I didn't know I could do this. But now I know, I know. So I think giving that opportunity. I saw students, I saw that light bulb, right, I saw that light bulb light up in students. And I was like, Wow, this is awesome. And then from there, it kind of spread like rapid fire. Podcast Host 15:56 Yeah. So that first meeting with a principal, I mean, amazing that the principal said yes. and was like, what, you're probably 14 at the time or something like that. Komal Vij 16:06 Yes. 14. Podcast Host 16:07 Yeah, yes, you afford any of the time I commend the principal for taking that meeting. I know, obviously, you've asked him for that meeting. But sometimes, like in those early days, it's easy for people who have been in education for a number of years, or have kind of that authority in a way to say no, it's easy to kind of decline the meeting or be like, hey, look, it's a good attempt. But, you know, we'll pass the stage because they don't want to be the guinea pig necessarily. But you know, the school put themselves forward and they became the guinea pig. So for any students out there, like, if you go to a different organization, and I always say to students, like a great place to start is other schools, because there's one thing students know, it's schools, it might be their own school, or might be nearby schools, and might be schools that you have your brothers or sisters in, or primary schools, whatever it might be, but start with schools, because they're always a good place for students to start in. And the principal gave you the nod of approval, you've put that first class together. And then I'm going to guess you started thinking, Okay, what else do we want to teach in BZBUCK? And how do I actually start acquiring the knowledge to be able to teach this, you know, to get to a stage that is of particular standard that we're proud of that the students recognizes? Hi, that educators recognizes high that the parents recognize as a good level of education. So you must have been like going through a lot of different resources and trying to acquire all of this lesson plans and all these different things to try and make it a an actual teaching organization. What was that process? Like? Komal Vij 17:34 So yeah, it was definitely ironic at first because it's like, I'm no expert, right? All I'm trying to do is reach, you know, fill this gap reach that goal. So it was ironic in the sense that, okay, I'm teaching people a couple years younger than me everything they need to know about life. Right? So in that sense, it was kind of funny. But when I talk to the principal, I didn't even know she was going to say, Yes, I thought she was likely saying no, um, but when that happened, I kind of thought, okay, if I want to move forward with this, I have to look at how I'm going to move forward with this, right, putting it in a, you know, making an impact in my local community is a different thing. But if I'm spreading it, I have to know what I'm doing. Right, I have to have that knowledge. And I have to know what resources that I'm acquiring all this information from. So that was definitely something that I really had to something I had to, you know, focus on. But ultimately, it came down to looking at teachers who are CTE certified, meaning they are actually certified to teach career and technical education. So that it started at our school, but then it spread to the entire CT network of teachers. So teachers around the nation who are helping come up with these, you know, who have actually learned this or mastered this in college, right. And then also, I'm also earning two associate's degrees in our local college here. And so I worked with some of the professors who also saw potential in this plan, and they, you know, wanted to contribute. And so they also looked at it. And first of all, they're not very experienced in teaching children that young, their professors, but I think the way that they put together the information and the resources that they gave me, that they would normally give to students in their college classes, I took everything that I could find, I've gone to like the deep, deep end of the internet trying to find the most information. And so I've squeezed the information out of every resource I could possibly find, and put it together in a way that's fun, that's entertaining, and that's informational for the students. But that process definitely wasn't easy. Again, having a plan and you know, a vision is one thing, but executing that is a completely different thing. So that was one thing that I think would set apart students who have successful initiatives and students who have just kind of started it but never really finished it. So that work in the middle, the logistics and all of that, that is extremely important. And I think critical, like planning on that end is very important. It could make or break an initiative. Podcast Host 20:13 Yeah. Well, I know there's probably a lot of students listening to this podcast thinking that sounds like a tire job. And how does school fit in with all of this? So you said you're going to associate degrees at a local college as well. A lot of the time when I've asked for feedback about the podcast, students say, the organization's and the extracurriculars sad, awesome. But how do students make this work alongside like, normal school? So what's that been like for you in that bouncing app? Komal Vij 20:42 It's not been easy, I think, because I'm also very devoted to my own education as much as I also want to make education accessible to other students. And that's why I think if this wasn't a cause that I genuinely was very interested in, it will be very hard, which is I don't know how some students kind of come up with a cause that, you know, they're not even that interested in and then they move forward with it. I don't even know how they do that. Because if so, if you genuinely liked something, it doesn't feel like you're working, right. We know that cliche. But I think it can definitely get overwhelming, especially if you have lots of advanced classes, extracurriculars, all that stuff. But I think ultimately comes down to the willingness to fit it into your schedule, right? If you're doing it, for the sake of it just to be a founder, it's not going to be easy. I think one of the one of the reasons that I've been able to do it is because I actually like doing this, right, this is what I would do in my free time, I like filling this gap and making this impact. But it comes down to time management and priorities and how you rearrange everything in your in your time to really be able to meet all of these goals. So also, one thing I would say is make sure you know what you're doing, you know what you're signing up for before you actually sign up. Because that can also lead to like burnout, it can lead to, you know, reaching nowhere and in your school and your extracurriculars. So it's definitely important to think about how much you're taking on and whether you can actually meet those goals. So yeah, before I took this on, if I just blindly signed up, I don't think I would have been able to make this impact along with school and everything else. But I think I the way I planned it, I knew what I was doing. And I just I carefully looked at my time management along the way. And I think that's the only reason that I was I've been able to juggle everything at the same time. Podcast Host 22:37 Yeah, well, I love the idea that you planned, as you said earlier, you have a long term plan for this is not just like a short term starting organization, it's like starting organization, but then try and project forward two or three years, you know, how might it grow? What might it be on my side in terms of work? And how much time would it take for me to make this organization reach its potential? Have you bought any other students in though, to help with the workload at all? Is there any other like staff helping with this bug? Komal Vij 23:07 Essentially, it's me running the international organization. But yes, so we do have students who are also extremely committed to this cause. And so they're helping out in their own chapter. So every chapter that we have, has its own little team where they run like the operation, the local operations. So in that time, then we have like some outreach directors or some people to do help with the workload. And I think, you know, it's, it's really cool, because students who are really good at what they do, right, like a very niche job, they do that full time. So if you look at starting an organization, right, it's like you're an entrepreneur, you're doing everything right at the beginning, you have to fill, you have to wear every cap, you have to complete every role. But I think once you start getting teams, it's interesting, because you can see people who are really good at that one thing they do, and then that entire team coming together where everybody's good at what they do. And that way, it's really, it's really beneficial to the organization, because that way, you know, it helps it helps with the workload to but yeah, I think that way, it's also easier to get other students involved. So I think that's where it branched from work with other students. So I went around trying to find students who also really wanted to do this, or students who also really wanted to do this and had some skill that they can also contribute to. And so it started from there. And now you know, we have teams who help with all kinds of things. And so that's how we're able to manage everything. If I was still doing everything alone. I have no idea how I would be able to do it. Podcast Host 24:45 Yeah, well, I've got so many questions for you based off all these things. I'm like, I'm trying to remember all the questions that keep coming up as you chat. But it's really interesting to look at what your typical tasks were when you first started the organization like what was a week in the life of a founder of BZBUCK in those first couple of weeks, versus what your typical roles are, and tasks today. So I'm going to guess like in those early stages, you were probably delivering the classes or writing the curriculum, that kind of thing. But now you're probably more managing the teams and the distribution of the curriculum. Is that about right or am I completely wrong on that? Komal Vij 25:23 That's my right. Yeah. So. So when it started, it wasn't even an official organization. It was just a little club that I read in my head. And I was like, Okay, I want to do this. And so I was doing everything right, I was pitching it to all these teachers, the principal's I was writing the curriculum, I was coming up with a plan. And again, if you don't have a long term plan, it's just all going to, you know, you're gonna face so many challenges and everything. So I was doing everything. And I think that year, that few months, that was a lot, that was overwhelming, because I was like, My hands were on everything. And so at this point, like later, we got students involved. But at the beginning, those students didn't even know what this book was at the time, right? I just created it, it was just a vision in my head, I didn't even know how to execute it. So that did take a lot of work to get it to the point where other students are hearing about it. And they're like, Oh, I want to join, right? spreading it, just to that point is not easy. So I wasn't everything at the beginning. But then slowly, we got students who, you know, reached out and said, I want to help with this, you know, I like this. And so now, I'm still doing a good amount of work, because I don't, I don't want to dump anything on everyone. So anyone who is contributing to the organization, it's like, as a hobby, this is something they actually want to do, I didn't want to really get anyone involved to just, you know, if they were just doing it for the sake of it, or if they were just doing it for a title or if they were just doing it for their resume, wanted to get people involved who actually liked it. Like if they took an hour out every week, for their free time. If this is what they wanted to do, then I would be like, yes, you know, I would love to have you involved. And so that that's where it started. And then it's less than it was, but sometimes I have to try and keep my own head out of it. Because I again, I really like this cause, right? So I get lost in it myself, trying to grow the organization and reach because, you know, regardless of how big we are, right now, there are still schools out there. And there's still students out there who don't have access to us yet. Right. And so once you get a little taste of that, of that, you know, spread and of the impact you're making, it's really hard to stop. Right? So that yeah, that's but the growth has just been amazing. And the people who have helped out and contributed also are extremely and genuinely passionate, which is why I think it's grown so much to the point that it is today, Podcast Host 27:48 How many schools or students do you think his back has been in contact with since you first started the organization. Komal Vij 27:55 So in terms of like grades, it's a wide range. So right now we're catering to kindergarten through 12th. And so in that range, I would say, around 8000 9000, just in the US. But yeah, it's a it's a good amount of students just within the US, and we're growing a lot every single day. So like every single week, we have a new chapter starting and we have new sub chapters starting. And once we've, you know, kind of established a chapter at a specific school, it grows into other clubs. So like, say BZBUCK, at a specific school, would also start being connected with other clubs at that school. And so then it just kind of grows from there. So like the baseball club at one school might partner with the deca club at the same school, and it just keeps reaching more and more and more students. And so in that sense, it's it's really it's growing faster every every day. Podcast Host 28:50 Yeah, that's fantastic. So generally speaking, though, the chapters, they are teaching students within a club format, so kind of like lunchtime meetings, or are they actually going into classrooms? Or are they actually delivering content through the CTE teachers? Like what's the general structure? Because I think it's fascinating, right? You start the organization after having a meeting with a principal with a lesson plan in your hand type of thing. And then the idea of like starting chapters and doing these kinds of things, that that sounds like very official, very formal. And it's just interesting to kind of understand from your side, how you manage that growth and what you were advising students to do. So I'm going to guess like there was a student from a different school being like, Hey, this is backlinks. Sounds great. I'd like to start it in my school. What do I do next other thing? I what would your advice be to students in that situation? And how did you manage that growth in a way that was both sustainable and kind of stay true to the original model or the original teachings that you thought would work best for students? Komal Vij 29:50 Right, so I think the structure that I came up with shortly after I started executing my plan, this structure was the most efficient way to make sure That, you know, all the, or all the little groups of students because at the beginning students were just reaching out from all over us and all at once on social media. And, you know, I looked at I was like how I manage this, because at the beginning, it was like, Okay, one person from Arizona, one person from Australia, one person from India, right. So how I manage this, you know, they're different time zones, and there's different schools, there's different standards, all of that. And so that's when I got the idea of making, you know, these little groups that are like chapters. And so that way, the official organization has processes in place where, you know, you can officially sign up to start a chapter and someone will get back to you and say, you know, let's move forward with this, you know, how do you want to start at your school? Do you want it to? Do you want to start as a chapter, do you want to start it as a club? Again, is it like a lunchtime meeting thing. So our main goal is to make this education accessible. So that's why we've not set too many restrictions on how we're catering this education. Because obviously, once things go international, things get very different, right. So that's when this entire structure started. And that's when we start came up with these processes that okay, you know, every week, the official organization is going to send over this lesson plan to you, and your team needs to come up with an interactive activity to implement after the lesson, we give the original lesson, but then we let the chapter put their own little spin on it, or their own little touch to it. So that way does stay true to the official organization. And we do have restrictions in place. Like all you can't change everything. But we do also allow them to, you know, put their own spins on it. And then some things like events or webinars, some things that we have are just organization wide, where everybody from every chapter can join. So that way, there's also a sense of unity, but they're also able to shine in their own individual chapters. Podcast Host 31:54 I love that. So you're giving some kind of chance for leadership for each chapter leader, I guess, in saying that, you can put your own spin on this lesson plan and make it your own. So that's really cool. And so you basically have to write out these processes, and then put a sign up form and, and all these kinds of logistics that you had to put together pretty early on, right? As soon as people start catching on that this was something that they would be interested in doing in their school, you're like, Okay, just give me a sec, I'm just gonna write this in, you know, like, how to guide or setting up bids back in your school type of thing with a chapter or a club. And so yeah, that that's really interesting. And how do the teachers get involved in these back? What's their role in this, because I think that's like a really critical part of a organization growing through schools student buy in is fantastic. And I don't deny that that's like a critical ingredient. But having teacher buy in is even a little bit better, because teachers are most likely going to be there longer term than most students. So what's their role in this whole process? Komal Vij 32:53 So yeah, so as you said, there are you know, routes that are most likely to stay longer than students, especially if they're in their later years of high school. And so those include actual workplace professionals who contribute to organization and teachers. So usually how it goes is students reach out saying they're very interested, you know, they follow the process to start their own chapter. And then we require having some sort of adult advisor, right, so like some teacher with credentials to supervise, right, all the operations that are going on in the local chapter. And so obviously, we try not to put too much work on the advisors, but you know, there to oversee everything that's going on, and to look at the curriculum and things like that. And so obviously, that they're like, you know, the main anchor of the chapter, so that if all the, you know, the students who are in the leadership roles, if they all graduate, there's still a teacher who can make sure that younger students can start to fill those roles. And so, in terms of that, we also do have a legacy concept, where once a student, you know, is old enough to graduate. And if they did hold a leadership status at their BZBUCK chapter, then they would pass on the legacy to somebody younger, or somebody they've been training or somebody that has been, you know, shadowing them for the past few years. And so this is something that other organizations like DECA also follow. But that's also something we do to ensure that the younger students who are learning when they reach that stage, then they become the leaders. And so it's like, a beautiful, ongoing wave of learning to leadership, right. And so that that is something that we can actually measure the growth and we can see immense growth, right, if we see a freshman who came into this club, thinking it was interesting, and then they end up graduating as the president of the BZBUCK club, that shows how much that they were able to grow throughout. So it's an ongoing cycle of, you know, learning and then teaching what you've learned, and then those people grow up and they teach what they've learned. And so that's how we ensure that this is not just going to be like a long one. Time thing once everyone graduates, you know, oh, there's no one there. So that's that's how we keep that in check. Podcast Host 35:06 I think it's such a good idea to ensure the continual growth and the continual importance of the club within the school is to have the adult supervision, the, you know, CTE teacher there. And one thing that I think is really important for students if they're wanting to do this, and something that I think you picked up on, is the idea that you don't want to overburden teachers, you know, a lot of teachers are already very busy. So you put them kind of in a mentorship kind of role. But it is related to their role as well. Like, they would want to say students interested in the thing that they're teaching. So students out there wanting to start a math club or wanting to start a book club or wanting to start any kind of club or organization, getting teacher buy in is great, but it's got to be teacher buy in that number one shows the teacher that this could make their job that little bit easier, and that it would have students be more passionate about the subject that the teacher teaches, right? So it's like a win win for the teacher, really, they've got passionate students, and they've got a club that has been bought in, they don't necessarily need to start it, it just kind of is already they have the structures already there. They just need to support it and mentor it. I think that's very, very clever. Did you have any buy in or initially like advice from CT teachers about creating that structure? Or did you just come up with that on your own? Komal Vij 36:25 Oh, I think it was the other way around. So I came up with the idea. And I then I got CT teacher buy in, and I was like, Okay, I got confirmation that this is a good idea. And so obviously, right, when I looked at this situation, um, you know, our organization goal is heavily, you know, we heavily emphasize making this education accessible to students. But then we also have to think about how much load we're putting on the teachers and how much, you know, tasks, were really filling up the to do list. So that's not our intention at all. And so when we look at that, we tried to set it up in a way that it's also benefiting the teachers and their classrooms. So I can give you an example, one of our chapters Recently, there is a marketing teacher. And so a couple of their marketing students reached out to bespoke wanting to start their own chapter, since they're taking a marketing class in their school. That's something they wanted to focus on in the bespoke curriculum. And so when the teacher found out that there's, you know, an external curriculum coming in, and the students have chosen to do that, they've chosen to put their time and effort into this, and teach even younger students, the teacher commented on that thing that students that they might teach years ahead of time are already being taught right now. So it's not only the fact that their current students are passionate, it's the students that they may get into three, four years, who are, you know, starting to learn about it now. So by the time they reach the classroom, they're ready to go, right. They're passionate, they're interested in this field. And most of all, they have a solid foundation. And so now is not the time to you know, in high school is not the time to set that foundation. It's the time where you kind of put your final touches or your last extensions, and then we go into the workplace. So that that is how we set it up. And so far, it's worked really well, Podcast Host 38:10 that's awesome. Well, I'm interested as well as to how many fires you have to put out in any given week or month or what those kind of fires might be, because as an organization grows, and as you as like the head of the organization, I'm sure the buck stops with you, as they say, or the buck stops with you in this case. So I'm going to guess there's some instances where, you know, there might be a conflict between student or teacher or there might be a leadership kind of issue where there's a, you know, a student leader, but they're not doing the work that they should be doing, or whatever it might be. Yeah, what kind of typical fires? Or what kind of typical issues are you dealing with that, you know, might not necessarily be the glamorous side of being the founder of an organization? Komal Vij 38:52 Right? So it happens, right? It happens with any initiative and your organization. And actually, I think that these fires are very, very crucial to the growth of the organization, because they kind of raised these issues in the structure or in the processes of the organization that you would have never even thought of before. And so every time you put out a fire, you know, you can ensure that that fire will never rise again. Right. And so I think that they're very important, but some of the typical things that we have to think about are, you know, some high school students sign up without the genuine willingness to put in the work or the genuine passion for this cause. And so I think the way that we've dealt with that is come up with like a way to find students who actually want to contribute, because there are many, many students out there. And I realized that it's not the lack of students out there. It's just the way that I'm finding these students, right, or the way that we are pushing. Like, who are we pushing this book out to right, who are we really advertising it to? Who are we putting it out there to and so I think that was extremely important because we don't want To be putting this organization out to students who don't really care about it right, or just kind of want to do it for the sake of it. So we found a way to get it in the hands of students who are interested in it. And so in that way, it was the most beneficial to both the organization and organization's mission. Because obviously, when people are genuinely passionate, genuinely interested in what they're doing, they're probably going to do a much, much better job. Right. So I think that that's where it started off. And yeah, usually we don't hit too many. I would like to say I did a good job in planning. We don't have too many conflicts like that. But yeah, one of the biggest ones would be, do they really like what they're doing? Or are they just doing it for the sake of it? Podcast Host 40:50 Yeah, just doing it for resume padding. As you said earlier, I think it's very common theme that student organizations need to be prepared to, I guess, have that tough conversation with some students and be like, hey, look, you know, you've been in the organization for a little while now. And it's great, you got the title, but it does come with work. And if you're not prepared to put in that work, there's other people who are prepared to put in that work. Do you kind of like force people out and say, Hey, you kind of need to step down? Or, you know, what does that conversation look like? Komal Vij 41:18 So it's not forcing people out? Usually, I think we've been I don't know if it's our amazing student leaders, or if we've just been lucky with this. But usually, what we try to do is just bring the situation, you know, surface up, what a lot of organizations do is kind of try and ignore the fact and kind of be like, hey, you need to, you know, get the work done. They kind of ignore the reality that, okay, there's some work and you're not doing the work that you should be doing. And I think that if they joined, they joined for a reason, even if it's not the most ideal reason that, you know, even if it's for resume padding, they could have chosen another place for resume padding, right. So even if they chose this place, there has to be some reason no matter how little there has to be some reason they chose this place. Right? And so I think what genuinely like generally, what I would try to do is bring out that reason, no matter how tiny Why did you join Facebook, right? And what what were you looking for when you join Facebook? And I think when you have that genuine conversation, it usually ends in a really good way. And the person kind of they understand they realize in themselves like, Oh, you know, I actually I did try this for a reason, I think I, I think I should put in more work or so we don't just say like, hey, you're not doing your work, you know, that's not how it generally would go. But I think it's surfacing reality the most, that brings out the passion, even if they didn't know they had it, right. And so every student leader finds that one little thing that they like, so for me, it was seeing that light bulb light up, and every student when they understood that I'm investing in my future right now, right, and this is something that I like doing. And so for another student leader, it might be something else. And so what we try to do is, let them find their Spark, what makes them really want to contribute to this cause. Now, some people may not want to at all, no matter how hard we try, but often, you know, it does work where if you find the genuine interest, they'll do the best work possible. Podcast Host 43:20 Well, that's good leadership, then if you're seeing that issue, where someone's not really doing the work, and instead of, as you say, just pushing them out, you kind of say, hey, look up for a reason. Let's find that reason, because it's there somewhere. We just got to find it. Yeah, that's, that's really good. How do you go about finding student leaders, you did mention earlier that you were kind of running around finding students. And then some students were finding you on socials as well, I'm going to guess that was primarily Instagram. And you're also on LinkedIn and have a great presence there, too. But what have you found as the the kind of biggest factor in finding students, or the biggest way that you've been finding students to join us Komal Vij 43:55 back? So I think it was more looking through the students that are interested rather than me, you know, going to the students. Again, I didn't expect it to be this big, right? I started as a little community thing, and it really grew. So I never, you know, luckily, I never actually had to face that fact, where I'm running around for students. It was tons of students coming to us super interested in this. And you know, obviously, not everybody can have a leadership position, you have to do some screening. And I think it was that where we put in the algorithm of pay, who is really good at what they do and who genuinely wants to help our cause and things like that. But definitely, that's definitely where it started. And social media, obviously, yes. So Instagram, that has also been one of our primary channels for students to get to know us and word of mouth is also huge. As I said, when we establish a chapter somewhere, you know, if the teacher gets involved, the teacher might walk into a staff room and tell the other teacher and then that teacher will tell someone else all over the phone that night or something like that. And so you'd be surprised when something revolutionary like this, that should have been there a long time ago comes up, people start talking about it right. And it really does spread, especially when literally everyone can contribute to this cause whether it's students who are coming to learn older students who are ready to teach workplace professionals who are really ready to give that advice, or teachers who are ready to supervise everything, everyone can have some say or have some, you know, role in contributing to this. And I'm pretty sure that's why it's spread so rapidly. So it's not like I put, you know, extra effort or anything to make it spread, it just kind of took off on its own. Podcast Host 45:43 Yeah, absolutely. What have been some of the more unexpected things that have come up as a result of starting BZBUCK, or some of the unexpected lessons that you've had to learn as a result of starting BZBUCK? Komal Vij 45:55 It happens with everything right? If there's an organization where the founder doesn't run into a bump, then I would be concerned, right, that doesn't happen often. So yeah, it's definitely happened. And I think one of those things would probably be sticking with something as much as you can. So like, the commitment when I went into this, I didn't know it would be as hard to be this young and pursue something like this, right. And that's not only saying that I you know, the workload or anything like that, but it's also saying, you know, how do people look at that number of your age, and just automatically think of some potential associated with it. So that is something that I've definitely struggled with, where I felt like, you know, when people look at me, they just see like a big age here, they just see my age, right. And that's when it came to sometimes where, you know, there might have been an awesome resource, but maybe they didn't see the potential BZBUCK had back then. And so maybe I couldn't use that. And maybe that put up some restrictions or put up some fences. But so age has definitely been one thing that you kind of have to keep pushing, right, you have to show and now, we've had people who said no way back when, who knows, see what this book is, and they're like, Oh, we were wrong, sorry. You know, we'd love to be a part of it. But yeah, in terms of that, you'll definitely run into roadblocks, no matter how much you plan, or you have a good structure. But my piece of advice would be, again, if you genuinely like this, no matter what you run into, you will be able to get through it, if you like it, you will find a way around it, you will find a way over it. And I think again, one other thing that I had to deal with was the workload, it was a lot of work. And this is not something that I was doing with other group of students. This is something that I started completely on my own right, with no adult support, either. This is something that I just I did. And so it the workload was also quite overwhelming, you know, with my classes and my extracurriculars. But there was tons of lessons that I was able to learn through this. That's primarily from the exposure to everything. So just like I said, a while back, putting my foot out there things that I would have never even tried. If it weren't for this book, I think I learned so so much that I will be able to use in the future. So you know, once you get that exposure, I did things that I never would have even thought of. So I think that has been an amazing experience. Podcast Host 48:22 Yeah, well, obviously, you you're going out there and teaching eight to 9000 students. So that sounds like a pretty impressive thing that you never thought you would really be able to do, that you are now doing. And it's obviously growing very quickly as well. What's next for this buck? I mean, I know that obviously, you're expanding internationally, and you're running webinars and doing all kinds of cool things. And you're setting this all up at a time where no COVID is happening. So I think is back the potential to grow is even more when hopefully, students start coming back to school in greater numbers around the world. What do you hope to achieve with this back in the next 12 to 24 months, Komal Vij 48:56 right, so the next steps are expanding, but with different perspective. So obviously COVID-19 pandemic change tons of things, right, especially when we came up with like, the whole chapter concept where they would mean their classrooms or their schools, all of that kind of change, right, and also how we're reaching other students that also kind of change. And so now the next steps are approaching our main goal and our mission from different perspectives. So there's tons of new projects that Facebook has in store that we are going to be employing very soon. And this time, it's going to be more of unifying all the chapters. So since we can all be virtual now, I think it's an amazing learning opportunity to learn from or you know, collaborate with someone your age that's across the nation, or that's across the world. So we're working on come up with the most creative ways, the most entertaining ways to get students excited about this and genuinely passion to get involved. Podcast Host 49:58 Yeah, I think it's super exciting. If students wanted to either follow BZBUCK or get in contact with you, or are interested potentially, in starting a chapter at their own school, how would they best go about that? Komal Vij 50:10 So our main point of contact would be the website, which is Bzbuck.com. So facebook.com is our main point of contact, it has everything from how to contact us and how to start a chapter and you know, everything like that. You can also follow on our Instagram, where we have more recent updates of what's going on in the organization. So those are probably the best ways to get in touch. Podcast Host 50:33 I'll put them both in the show notes as well. And if they want to get in contact with you or follow your story, what would be the best way to do that? Yeah, you Komal Vij 50:40 You can either find me on LinkedIn, or you can go on my Instagram handle as well, which is basically my name. Podcast Host 50:49 Yeah. We'll add all those in the show notes. And yeah, it's been fantastic having you on before you go, though, do you have any last bits of advice? You've been so full of wisdom for this whole podcast episode? I know you were you said you squeezed the resources or squeeze the internet wisdom. So I'm going to ask you before you go, is there any more wisdom that you would have for students, if they're wanting to start something of their own of this kind of magnitude? What would be some of the lessons that you would want to give students before we head off? Komal Vij 51:17 So the last things I would say is, if you genuinely have something that interests you like a niche problem, or something that not many organizations or individuals have done, go for it, you know, don't be intimidated by the fact that no one's done it, it might be because it's a very scary problem, because it's hard to solve. But you know, even if nobody else has done it, do it, because that's just even more incentive to do it, because no one's done it before. And so that and if it already does exist, I would say instead of starting your own thing, for the sake of it, or to have that title, join that large organization, you'll probably make more impact. So if you generally like something look for where you'll make more impact, whether it's starting your own, or joining a larger organization, so don't just do it for the sake of it, because you don't actually want to do it. It's a lot of work. So make sure that you know what you're signing up for, and you genuinely do want to pursue this. But other than that, I've had a lot of fun chatting here with you today, Alexander. And I think that top of the top of the class podcast is an amazing opportunity. And I think it's amazing how students who have already you know, done it can talk to students who want to do even more. Podcast Host 52:30 I know this episode has been fantastic in terms of actually getting down into the details of like, what it looks like to start an organization like this, you know, writing out the processes of how students can start their own chapters, engaging teachers, you know, and just like the starting point of giving a lesson plan to a local principle, and how you turn that idea into reality. I think it's been super inspiring. So thank you, Komal, for sharing all of your insights. And I hope students do take advantage of the links in the show notes as well, and get in contact with you and perhaps even start their own chapter is back wherever they might be from around the world.

Ep#2 College Tips - Oxbridge Interview Insights with Former Oxford Admissions Officer, Hannah Rowberry

#2 Oxbridge Interview Insights with Former Oxford AO, Hannah Rowberry

🗓 FEB 10, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Chats and new series of the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and today I chat with Crimson Education strategist, former Oxford interviewer and Cambridge alumni, Hannah Rowberry. Hannah shares her insights into the all important Oxbridge interviews, her advice for students to prepare, and some funny stories that have come from the high pressure interview environment. Let's chat with Hannah Rowberry. Hannah, welcome to College Chats is awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Hannah Rowberry 00:47 Thank you very much. It's great to be here. So yes, I used to be a student at University of Cambridge natural sciences, but since then have been quite a few different things as I was a scientist for a little while, and then as a science teacher for a few years. And I spent most of my career as an admissions officer at the University of Oxford's really enjoyed working with students, supporting them through the application process and then running the application process as well. And then since then, I've come to work at Crimson which has been fantastic. Podcast Host 01:12 Is that like heresy in the UK? Going from Cambridge student to Oxford admission officer, talk me through that. Hannah Rowberry 01:19 Absolutely. The Dark Side. Yes. Yes, actually, you know, obviously, there's this great rivalry, at least kind of perceived between Oxford and Cambridge. And indeed, Cambridge started as professors that you ran away from Oxford and start up their own university. So there is this historic rivalry for hundreds of years, however, a friendship between the two and a huge amount of students and staff. Lots of people have have dual citizenship as it were. Okay, right. There you go. Podcast Host 01:46 I didn't know that. I thought it was like, once you're a Cambridge person, you're a Cambridge person for life, or vice versa. I didn't know there was many staff and students moving in between. But that's good to hear. I guess, you know, the more the merrier, and sharing of knowledge and all the rest of it. That sounds good to me. Now, you're a crimson strategist, nowadays, what does that role entail? And how have you found that fulfilling for you? Hannah Rowberry 02:07 Yeah, it's, it's a great role. So it's sort of spans a lot of things really. So I'm working with lots of different students around the world, supporting them in preparing for an application process in the UK. So that can be anything from just thinking strategically, obviously, as a strategist, in terms of their university choices and cost choices, but also thinking about things like their qualifications, and their super curriculum, say things that are doing to kind of boost that profile in terms of developing that interest, and and deepening those as well in preparation application. And then also specific aspects of the application process, say, preparing personal statements, and thinking about some admissions tests and interviews, and sort of working towards getting ready for those and getting students feeling comfortable and confident with application process. When the time comes. Podcast Host 02:53 Are you the kind of strategists that you wish you had when you were a student applying to Cambridge? Hannah Rowberry 02:59 Absolutely. I mean, I didn't have anyone like that when I was applying. So I grew up in rural Yorkshire in the UK, and my lovely kids didn't go to Oxford, Cambridge, really, where I grew up, that wasn't really an expectation for students there. And so I kind of made it up myself, really, I was my own strategist, in terms of preparing for that, but I had no no expectation that I would be getting to Cambridge. So it was very, very exciting to do so. Podcast Host 03:26 Yeah, I bet I bet. Well, we are going to be talking about one particular element of the application today, and that is the Oxbridge interviews. Now these have taken on, I guess, like a kind of mythical status around the world for how challenging they can be. I've seen some blogs about the kind of questions that students get depending on the courses they're applying for. But for students who may not know too much about the Oxbridge interviews, can you give us kind of like a general introduction as to what they are? Hannah Rowberry 03:52 Sure. So it's quite an important part of the application process for like Oxford and Cambridge of aspects as well. But this is the kind of key element in terms of testing a student's teachability. So a lot of people get very nervous about interviews, and think that it's meant to be this sort of nasty, difficult tests, where you'll find lots of impossible questions or bizarre things that you couldn't possibly be empty. And that's not the intention at all. And so the nature of interview is actually a mock tutorial on mock supervision. So oxygen came into different words. But basically, this is the small group teaching, which is typical for how teaching happens in Oxford and Cambridge. And so they're testing the students suitability for that kind of teaching, When are they going to flourish? And that kind of environment, the nature of questions will often be that it's something that you perhaps haven't come across before as a new scenario, but something where you can apply your existing knowledge and skills to to sort of work through that question. So it might be something where you don't have an immediate answer to it, which often is why then if you see you know, blogs about interview questions, they are completely bizarre that are completely impossible, and it can be a little bit of quitting, because they can completely out of context have no sort of single standalone question that you just have to ask. I'm 30. But Robert, that'll be a sort of starting point for a discussion, you might not immediately come to answer. But actually the tutors will be sort of giving you prompts maybe giving you questions or new information to help you work through that. And they're seeing how you respond to that effectively how you respond to that teaching. And so whether you're going to be a good student for them. Podcast Host 05:19 Yeah, so what kind of dictates a well done interview? Is it been super chatty? Or is it been super knowledgeable? Like, what would a student have to do to leave the interviewers wowed after you leave the room? Hannah Rowberry 05:33 Yeah, really good question. I think there's no sort of typical student. And in that sense, I think a lot of people think that they even need to be very extroverted, very opinionated, all those things. None of that really matters. You know, ultimately, these interviews that they're interested in your brain, they're interested in finding out what's what's going on in there, and sort of finding out about your intellectual curiosity and flexibility. I think the key thing in terms of wowing interviews, I mean, obviously, being knowledgeable isn't gonna be a bad thing. But actually also being kind of intellectually curious, intellectually open minded. So again, these questions might be things you haven't come across before, but actually kind of approaching them with an open mind and thinking, Okay, you know, how, how can I think about this? What can I do about this? What do I need to find out to be able to work through this, so actually, a student who listens to the interviewers will impress them. And since they're taking board all that information, and giving, also a student who, you know, isn't afraid to try things out, and actually sort of speak out loud, often advice I give to students is sort of say what you're thinking, because ultimately, the interviewers want to see that thinking process such as saying, you know, no, I'm not sure. But this is what I do know, this is what I'm going to try here. Yeah, that's a really useful thing in sort of showing that thinking process to the interview. Podcast Host 06:46 Right. And I think I've heard from students in the past that the interviewer is not necessarily looking for a student who knows everything, right? They're not looking for correct answers, because there really is no correct answer to a lot of the questions. They're mainly, as you say, looking for that thinking process and that thought process. So to do that, well, as you said, like talking through the answer is perhaps a good tip. Are there any other tips that could help a student demonstrate that they are thinking their way through these questions in an intellectual manner that the interviewers are looking for? Hannah Rowberry 07:18 Sure. So I think, certainly explaining themselves is really important. And also, again, kind of having flexibility in terms of information, often a common error for students is thinking that to kind of show off, they need to doggedly stick to their opinion and need to be like, Yes, I can argue well, because I know what I'm saying, or I changed my mind for anything. And actually, you know, that's not going to be impressive in the sense that they want to see that you could maybe change your mind in new information and actually take that on board. And so again, sort of absorbing information as you're going along. Also not being afraid to sort of go back and correct yourself in the sense that it's quite common. In an interview that you might have said something earlier that you gradually realized later on was rubbish. Yeah. And actually, rather than being like, No, I was brilliant, nothing was wrong. I've realized what I said back then wasn't quite right, kind of go back and you know, took that through again. And again, it's fine, also fine, you know, not to have an immediate answer. And it doesn't mean it's actually enough to take a moment to think these are these are hard questions, these are things that you're going to have to use a bit of bit of brainpower about. So it's fine to take a beat. And think that through and also just for clarification, from interviews, interviewers are human beings, they're fallible, they might not have the perfect question. They might have asked it in a really rubbish way. And so to say, Oh, you know, could you repeat that? Could you say that in a different way? Could you explain what this means? And that's perfectly acceptable? Well, I'm actually you know, it's impressive to interviews that you're kind of really thinking things through. Podcast Host 08:46 Yeah, for sure. Now, I know this is more like a logistics question regarding the interviews, but I'm not quite sure what happened during the last interview round because of COVID. And I know there's always been debate around the value of going on campus versus doing it virtually versus I believe, you can also do the interview in Singapore, as I understand. So what are your thoughts around like the logistics of actually sitting the interview? Hannah Rowberry 09:11 Yes, obviously, no last round are different from usual UK was in full lockdown at the time. And so all of your interviews were remotes in normal years, and hopefully in three years, a situation if the majority of interviews happen in person in the colleges, but obviously students sort of from overseas aren't expected necessarily to travel all that way. Occasionally, do you have students who want to come in person I think I had one student come from Australia, once for us, that's a long way to go. Most students outside of Europe would be having remote interviews in terms of the sort of situation for students and what's best for them and I actually used to run the remote interviews from the colleges that I worked in. It was always a great, great phrase so students that I knew that I would say you know, it is a slightly different experience from an in person interview, you know, you aren't quite as face to face The same way, you don't get quite the same interaction of interviews, that's a slightly different thing. But that doesn't mean that you're at a disadvantage. If they're interviewing you, they want to see, like the student, they will do everything to get all they want out of you and see what's going on in your brain. But yeah, it's a slightly different experience. But now now everyone's happy to be the same for everyone really, um, in terms of like the overseas in person entities, that's just a Cambridge bangs, Oxford don't do that. And although they do have a sort of a big set up in Singapore for my interview, so it's quite a thing that remote interviews, and Cambridge do breaks them in person overseas interviews in a few locations. And again, that can be a good opportunity for students to have that experience. Although you might be getting different interviews then from the sort of main cohort of students. So yeah, roundabouts in terms of sort of what's best for students in that respect, Podcast Host 10:50 I remember chatting to one student who went there, and she wanted to go there just to have the campus experience as well as the interview on campus as well. So it can be beneficial. I think, if you're planning on staying there, if you haven't been to Cambridge, or Oxford, before, I was lucky enough, I actually went in 2019, I think and just as a tourist, and hardly went and did the Oxford tour and the Cambridge tour and love both of them. Is the interview style different depending on the university? Are they looking for, like different things? So say, for instance, you're a student wanting to study science, for instance, would you prepare differently for a Cambridge interview as you would an Oxford interview? Or would you prepare fairly similarly? Hannah Rowberry 11:28 Yeah, they're pretty much identical in terms of how they operate the interviews, I would say, I mean, there's some logistical differences in terms of how they work. And so candidates tend to do interviews in one day, but each student still might have two or three interviews, but it'll be in a relatively short space of time, you might also have adding to the tests or activities on the reading to do prior to the interview, that usually happens in a more condensed period. That said, students obviously still can stay overnight in the colleges, if they have come in from overseas and Cambridge, and Oxford, it's a slightly longer process. So you still are likely to have two or three interviews, but maybe more, if you're going to stay in Oxford for the process. And it usually happens over the course of maybe two or three days. And so students will be kind of in there for the long run. And it's kind of nice experience of hanging out in the college, you'll get to know the other candidates. Usually they're putting on kind of socials and activities. They have lots of lots of student helpers in Oxford, and come and come hang out with me. So it's quite a quite a fun time. Often, this is December around Christmas time, I've only ever it snowed. A lot of fun with that. But it was it was quite a good time. So yeah, different experience with the auction process, but introduce themselves will be the same and have a slight difference toxic is that he might be interviewed by more than more college while you're there for interview. And so Cambridge, you'd only be interviewed by the one that you'd apply to Oxford. Everyone has a good luck. Yeah, so sat around, and you don't necessarily know in advance, which colleges those are going to be. So you'll know your first one, but you might not know, maybe one or two other colleges that you're going to go to. So it's a bit of a bit of a mystery talk in that respect. Podcast Host 13:04 Right? That sounds pretty fun. Well, what's one of the most common questions that you get from students and or parents about the interviews? Like you're a strategist, you're working with this student throughout their entire application process? If they were to sit down and say, Hannah, we're looking at the interviews, this is my main concern, what is that main concern that you often hear? Hannah Rowberry 13:23 One of the biggest concerns? Is it going to be scary? quite nervous about interviews, that's completely understandable. You know, it's a big important thing about the application process being nervous is entirely fine. But I would say that there's nothing really to be said about the nature of the interview, as I said, is that it's meant to be the sort of mock tutorial, it's not meant to be this nasty test, you're not expected to know the answers. If you already knew everything, you wouldn't need to go to university to get things wrong, also interviews, humans that have strong memories of my time and the things that went wrong. And that wasn't the students introduce themselves, and say I had wanted it and they were just completely missing. And we really worried that something terrible had happened, we were like sending people out to try and find them. And just just let them make mistakes. They're not these like, you know, higher beings. So don't worry, you know, these people, these people are normal. These people make mistakes, and actually know that there are also people who love your subjects as well. So they're gonna be super excited to meet you. You might be doing quite a niche, academic field, they might not meet many people who like the same thing that they do have a student who's like, yeah, this is what I want to study, but a nice experience for them as well. So I would say certainly from from my experience onwards from having been a student and having gone through the interview process, the ultimate Cambridge in These are probably the most exciting and interesting interviews you'll have in your life until you go into business for yourself in five years time, right, right. weakness. You're debating a subject, you're talking to people who are at the top of their field, you know, the best people in your subject ever. That's pretty exciting opportunities out. Podcast Host 15:22 Yeah, I mean, I know, if I was a student in that situation, I would be super nervous waiting for the interview, like in that kind of five minute beforehand type of scenario. Actually, I was talking to a student from Sydney, who worked with us for a while and got into Oxford. And he said he was waiting outside the room. And the door was slightly ajar. And he could hear the interview going on before him. And he said, the the poor kid before him did terribly, or what he thought, you know, did terribly. And it just made him like 10 times more nervous, like his heart was already in his throat. And he gave he what was going on. And he now wonders whether or not that was like a deliberate tactic by the interviewers, just to kind of scare the students coming in, you know, straight after they leave the door just slightly. And, yeah, that that was not a good experience. But once he got in and settled and started realizing, as you said, they're just people, he relaxed into it, and ended up getting it, which is fantastic. Now, in terms of preparation, what would you recommend for students to do as like preparing for an interview that changes all the time, right? Like it changes depending on the day or the interviewer or their subject? Like it's, you know, it's a moving target. So how do you prepare for this? Hannah Rowberry 16:38 Sure. So I mean, I think there are obvious things to do in the sense of actually just being comfortable with the things that you should know. Expect to learn extra stuff, to know anything beyond what you've done at school. But feeling comfortable with everything that you have learned in an irrelevant school subject is pretty humbling, it's not going to get you to do a revision. Also, I think just kind of familiarizing yourself with that process. Like I say, don't feel nervous, obviously, that's natural. But actually being aware of what's going to happen being prepared for that means that you're going to feel a little bit more calm, you're gonna find out what this is. And there are lots of breakouts and lots of colleges have produced nice look at videos of what videos of what interview should look like. And you can sort of see, see what it looks like. Also, you know, just getting comfortable with chatting about your interests, chatting about academic matters and what you think about them. So find find a willing victim. You can tell all your favorite things, but subject playing the difficult bits to them. That's really easy, essential as well. That can be a useful process. I bet you do that plenty, right. I love all my favorite things I love I love interview. I love working through interview questions. Beautiful in how they work. Being like this is really scary. Okay, this is something that's accessible. It's something we can work through. Actually, I have I have my own door ajar story. So when I was my own into payments over many years ago, the door was ajar. And I was saying the previous student wasn't there anymore. And they were talking about me, which is pretty horrifying. So they were talking about my application. And they said, Oh, you know, good grades. Let's look again. Let's ask you the hard questions. Yeah, I was I was a little bit shaken. But actually, that was fine. Yes, the questions are challenging, actually. They were enjoyable and helped me work through more difficult and obviously, I got it. Clearly, but takeaway from that, is that yes, challenging. But actually, if you're, if you have an open mind to what's being asked, then you you're right through that process. But yeah, don't don't be put off by things where the interviewer say, Well, sorry, I got completely thrown like this question of interview because often interviewers will ask what they think is like a sort of settling question like how was your journey? Or you know, what, do you have a breakfast like that? And they misread between my school from where I lived, and they were like, Oh, no, did you have a good journey from this town? And I was like, that's not where I live. This question should not contradict. The first question. was a student was so nervous that interviews came out and called the name for a student to come into the interview. Wasn't the student's name. Isn't it Nice. I didn't tell him but he got it wrong. They just carried on and consummate professionals. Yeah, they just went for it. And so I was like running into this. But I was quite worried because the student then officially, from my point of view, had gone missing. hadn't turned up. In a lovely interview, just gone into the student, he was none the wiser, but it was it was very kind to him and got through that. Podcast Host 20:25 Fantastic. Well, we were about to wrap up. But before we do, what would be your one or two top tips for students to stand out from the crowd. Of course, this is the top of the class podcast, we've had some amazing students that we've been interviewing over the last 3132 episodes now. And you know, a lot of these students standout mainly through pretty amazing extracurriculars. But what would be your advice for students? If they were like, okay, competition's pretty fierce? I want to make myself stand out? How would I best do that? What would be your advice? Hannah Rowberry 20:58 Yeah, I think at a very basic level, it was just finding something that I really love, and exploring kind of broadening my horizons. And ultimately, you want the subjects that you're going to apply for that you're going to study at university to be something where, you know, perhaps, you go home to your family, and you tell them everything that you learned in that thing today, at school, or, you know, you read a book and you like, run downstairs and say, Oh, I found this out, I want to tell you about it. That's how you should feel about it. And actually, if you have that level of enthusiasm, and that is something that's gonna shine through in the application process, that's something that's going to come through in the personal statement, that's something that's going to come through it interview, and you know, people who are looking at those are going to be able to see that and are going to see, okay, this is a student who loves this, who is going to be motivated to continue this through their studies. And I think again, sort of specifically then within that aspects, like the sort of personal statement in the interview, there are areas where you really can shine and sort of show where your strengths are in that respect. And so I suppose, within a personal statement, obviously, I've been watching podcasts, and I've seen some really inspiring students, and I think they're wonderful, but not every student has the opportunities to these sort of experiences, however, can have relatively separate experiences, and still have a dazzling insight into them. And I think that's the key thing in terms of shining as a student, is that I, one of the best pencil statements I read was from a student who'd watch a TV show political comedy from the UK called the thick of it. And again, I'm not necessarily advocating that you should write about TV and universal payment. But this one was fantastic that he was saying, you know, what he learned from that? What inspired him from that, and you know, all the books that you've read about, on the basis of that inspiration, but it was it was just very, very genuine. And actually, his insights on that was so so fortunately, he was showing this thinking skills that universities are going to be looking for on that basis. So it's not not what you've done, but what you got out of it, what you thought about it, and so showing depth before. Podcast Host 22:51 I think that's such good advice, and I can't believe I've worked at Crimson now for nearly What is it almost five years now. And that is the first time I've heard that actually, kind of, you know, in that civil term, right, it's not about the heights of your experiences, it's about the kind of depth of your insight more so, you know, the access to these kind of amazing extracurriculars might not always be possible, you know, particularly now in COVID, when half the world's lockdown, it's very, very difficult. So oftens, about the depth of your insights is what will really make or impress particularly interviewers. And I think you know, that that kind of subject specialists, interviewer, right, they're really looking for someone who has thought deeply about the subject. And it's sometimes hard to think deeply about a subject that you might not have studied much of school like astrophysics or something like that, right. But even if it's like watching a cool TV show, and getting some insights from that, and the books, of course, let's not forget the book. So it's a very important ingredient there. Right. But still, I love that I love that I think that's such a good takeaway for students. And I'm sure students would apply that lesson they would be held in good stead for their application, or Hannah. It's been an absolute joy chatting and I hope students have learned as much as I have about the Oxbridge interviews. And of course, if students want an opportunity to work with someone like Hannah, there is going to be a link in the show notes for a free one hour consultation with a lovely local academic advisor as well. Thank you again, for joining us on the college chats as part of the top of the class. I don't want to get confused with all these series names. But either way, it's been an absolute joy having you on and look forward to sharing your insights about the Oxford interviews far and wide. Hannah Rowberry 24:28 Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

#32 From Failing Math to the Best Selling Author of Advanced Calculus Explored

🗓 FEB 6, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Kwok. And in this episode, I chat with Hamza Alsamraee, we chat about how he went from failing at maths to writing an Amazon bestseller about advanced calculus, how he built one of the largest online math communities and what you can do now to develop a love for any subject outside of the classroom. Let's chat with Hamza Alsamraee. Hamza, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's awesome to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Hamza Alsamraee 00:46 Sure. Thank you for having me on. So I'm Hamza Alsamraee. I'm a gap year student mainly interested in math and communication and math education as well. I run daily math, it's the biggest, I think, math page on Instagram. And I'm also the author of two books, Paradoxes. And Advanced Calculus Explored, both of which sold combined, there are 5000 copies. They're both in math. Podcast Host 01:10 Yeah, so maths is the real passion of yours. And you're also known as Iraq's Einstein as well! Hamza Alsamraee 01:17 I didn't pick that title. So it just happened behind the scenes. So a TV channel reached out to me, I'm originally from Iraq. So that's my birth country. And a TV channel just happened to reach out to me, they wanted to do a documentary about kind of how I had my first book, I published it, and kind of my journey and discovering my passion for math. And really, it was, it was a beautiful thing to do. It was lovely. Even though it's a bit tiring, at times shooting whole documentary, it took about three days to fully shoot, but eventually came out November. And that was the title that they came up with the rock science side. And I'm really proud of it. Podcast Host 01:53 It is obviously like a pretty high bar that they've set for you. And I guess like when you start putting that in a documentary and start putting that further and further out, I guess people's expectations of you potentially go up as well. So what's it been like to kind of have that documentary come out? And then I guess people's perceptions of you know, what you've been able to do in the last, you know, couple of years of high school and writing these books and these kinds of things? Do you feel like it's a high bar that you're happy to have? And you're able to keep striving towards? Hamza Alsamraee 02:21 Definitely. I mean, I'm the type of person who sets high bars, even if I know, they're practically impossible to achieve. I played football in high school, American football, and my coach had this one quote that really stuck with me. Aim for perfection. So you can be excellent on the way there, right? So you'll never get to being perfect. You'll never get to being maybe the best of the world at something right? I sign maybe was the best at math and physics, mathematical physics. And maybe you'll never get there. Right? But just aiming for that goal could be in and of itself, something that's very meaningful to you and could be what keeps you going, what keeps you doing what you do? Podcast Host 02:56 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, let's go back a little bit. So take us back all that way to when you first started feeling that connection to maths and who helped you cultivate that love of maths and how did it start playing out in different ways for you? Hamza Alsamraee 03:10 Yeah, so I didn't you always know that I liked math when I was good at school. But you know, nothing extraordinary in elementary school, even you know, when I went to middle school was nothing that set me apart, I was always interested in patterns. And that's what really brought me into math is kind of pattern finding and solving for patterns, just discovering patterns all around me. So I soon discovered that that passion for patterns was math. And eventually, I moved to the US around six years ago. So I would have been in seventh grade. And when I first came to the US six years ago, I went to a school in Inner City, Philadelphia, which was severely under resourced. And eventually I moved out of that school when I went to a charter school that was much more academically rigorous in Michigan. When I went there. We were learning stuff about linear equations and solving them. So right now pretty simple stuff. But back then, when I was in middle school, it was very, very hard for me. And first quiz that I got, I basically just failed it. I think, you know, I got I got I got an app, right. And from there, I just was determined to never be behind. I hated being behind in class and being lost. That was the feeling that I dreaded the most is just going into class and not knowing a word of what the teacher said. And that was how I fell back then. So we had this website called Excel. It was kind of a Khan Academy of its day. Cow Academy was still there, but it wasn't as developed as it is right now. So I Excel was our homework website. We basically do around 30 minutes of homework a week, very modest requirement, but then I really started liking what it had to offer. And I just started practicing as much as I can. And it really introduced me to a lot of topics that I didn't know even existed. So I was mainly studying you know, linear equations, and just y equals mx plus v just getting that down in class, but then introduce me to stuff in geometry, you know, introduce me to stuff, that's an algebra two. And slowly through that website, I got to learn a lot of math that I wasn't exposed to before. And it slowly just kind of became an addiction, to learn more and discover more. And I just felt it wasn't really a drive to do good in class, because at that point, I was beyond the scope of the class. It was just a drive to explore something that I deem very interesting. And I feel like, you know, I was lucky to discover that very early on, and it doesn't have to be math for everyone. You know, whatever it may be, if you find it, I feel like just falling in love with the process of learning it is the best catalyst. Like being motivated to pursue a great is one thing, but me being motivated just for the sake of exploration is a whole nother ballgame. Podcast Host 05:51 Yeah, but I know that a lot of students and this is probably going back to when I was a student in math class, I remember I, I put my hand up one time, I think we're all learning, you know, circuito, or whatever it might have been, or tangents and whatnot. And I put up my hand and I said to the teacher, I said, Ms Salvitti, when are we ever going to use this? Hamza Alsamraee 06:13 Classic question, right? Podcast Host 06:15 And her answer was like, Well, if you want to be a math teacher, you'll need to know it. And I'm like, I'm not gonna be a math teacher. Right? So for me, and I think a lot of other math students, they see that like, maths is rather theoretical, but don't necessarily see the real world application. When you were going through in learning all these kinds of things. What was your driving motivation? beyond just learning things? Were you able to see a real world application? Or were you just literally enjoying the learning process? And getting answers? Right? Hamza Alsamraee 06:42 To be honest, back then, I would say I was more interested in physics. And maybe So now, I'm interested more in applying math to the real world applied mathematics. So definitely saw a lot of applications back then. I mean, my both of my parents are civil engineers. So they told me all types of stories, you know, maybe they don't do the math with their hands, you know, nobody really does anymore. But they told me all types of stories about how you know, you they use it, maybe as in their programs, right, whatever software they may be using, right, and measurements and architectural drawings, right. And that was kind of my first exposure to saying, hey, math isn't just this abstract mess, can actually be applied. You know, I never really saw my dad solve an integral, but he didn't need to, because that was already worked out for him maybe 50 years ago, because someone just worked out a simple software program to do it for him. So I think that that was my first exposure, but I got to go more theoretical, and even in the applications. So I was really interested in quantum physics, relativity. And obviously, those fields are just riddled with math. And once I began seeing how fascinating the world can be at the extreme, so relativity is really all about extremes of speed, when you go really fast, you know, time changes, every year mass changes, you know, everything looks different, and quantum physics all about when you go really small, you know, how how does the world happen? How does the world operate at a very small scale. So that's really the two fields that drove me to learn a lot of math in the first place, is wanting to understand the core essence of what I deemed to be reality, you know, the universe that was kind of a motivator behind, you know, like, wasn't really something that I realized was motivating me. But it was definitely what drove me in retrospect. Podcast Host 08:30 I love that explanation of quantum physics is really small. relativity is really fast. I mean, I, as I said, not a mathematician myself. But that's like the most simple explanation I've ever heard of that. So I actually finally know, a kind of at least the introduction of what quantum physics or what relativity is actually all about. So thank you very much for that. But that's really awesome. Yeah, I think like having civil engineers as parents would definitely make a difference, right? Because they're just showing you that maths is not theoretical in and of itself, like it has so many real world applications. And I think that must have been a pretty good aspiration for you, or be able to kind of say, what matters and just, you know, numbers on a page, you can help build buildings, you can help do this cetera, et cetera. But one thing that I am interested in is that I know maths is very much like building blocks, right? And I'm sure you you write about this in your book as well. That if you don't have a particular thing down, Pat, everything above it starts to crumble a little bit, or you can never quite get there. You said you were struggling at maths in school. Did you find through that process of going on I Excel that you had kind of that missing building blocks along the way? And if so, like, what did you feel was, you know, some of the things that were potentially holding you back from being a success in maths and were you able to address it? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, the first thing that I started with before I grinded on IXL was I asked my parents, they helped me a lot. And you know, there's tutoring sessions could have been like, yeah, they were very long. Sometimes they're very tiring, but eventually Got to learn kind of the basics that led me to be good at IXL, right and kind of IXL, like IXL, IXL. They're basically for each chapter, they had a little homework assignment to do. And I just complete as many of those as I can. And I think that really the idea that you if you don't have a solid base, you can like fail, that's overplayed a lot. I think that if you were to just go exploring, knowing what you're missing isn't going to be that hard. So let's say you're doing a geometry problem or something, and you don't know how to solve this one certain linear equation. So you directly know what you have to learn. So you can always go back, it never hurts unless you're in a class. That's a whole different thing, right? where it's like, you can fail a class if you don't have the right basics, but doing exploration in and of itself, you know, watching more advanced videos, why, you know, reading about more advanced math theories never hurts, right? As long as you can understand a little bit of it, you know, it will only give you more content to munch on, if you don't know it fully. So to anyone that that wants to learn more advanced math content, but feels like they don't have the right preparation. Just go for it. Especially people like Three Blue One Brown, these math YouTubers, they make really advanced stuff seem really simple. And because they love to explain things, and they do it in such a beautiful manner. Yeah, I think it's an interesting concept of like, how far maths teaching has come and obviously, like you've been getting into that now with daily math and also your books. That, you know, I think maths teaching in and of itself, like we, by the way, in Australia, we call it maths plural. Yeah, as opposed to math there in the US. But it's really interesting, I think, to see how far math has gone as a classroom subject. Where do you think it's gone wrong in the past that has, you know, why turned off so many students from maths like, there's, there's a significant drop, at least here in Australia. And I know, in some parts of the world as well, from students doing advanced maths, they kind of get to that level where you can do the intermediate level, and they're like, yeah, that's fine. I'll just stick with that type of thing. So where do you think teaching is gone? Perhaps a little bit, or missteps in the teaching of kids in school? Hamza Alsamraee 12:14 I definitely think so. There's two types of maths or math in the world. There's the math that propel society propel civilization builds buildings, you know, comes up with new exciting theories about physics, chemistry, medicine. Now, whatever it may be, you know, the basis of our civilization. And there's the math that people complain about, and is the drag of so many students. And it's something that is never going to be applied in real life. And I feel like the main difference between those two types of maths is, let's look at how math is applied in the real world. Right now. Nobody's jotting down integrals and solving them in a, you know, like just on on a piece of paper, you know, they're plugging them in into Python or something, nobody is, like, a really tedious method that you would learn calculus class, like Newton's method, right? Were back then Nuland would probably have to work it out by hand. But right now, you don't need to have that because a computer, your calculator does it for you, or your computer does it for you. And I think the biggest disconnect is people have to do these things by hand. And that's where it's truly never going to be applied in real life. You You need to understand how to do the mechanisms behind these things. But you also need to understand how to apply them through tools. So I think one thing is just lessening the amount of computation each student has to do, because they will never be better at doing these advanced computations than a computer, we'll be right our computers are much more advanced. So just cutting down on that. And really bringing math back to what I think is original meanings was is just a new way of seeing the world quantitatively. And a rigorous way to test any hypothesis related to numbers, you know, that's going to be statistics and data science. So I think that's number one. Number two is really, I think this is missing from all of education, as well as just active project oriented learning, where the student doesn't feel like they're being lectured at. But the student feels actively involved in their learning process. And I can understand why that doesn't happen. It takes a lot of resources. And it takes very high organizational complexity within the school system. And that makes a lot of sense why it's not implemented. But if we really want to move forward in terms of education, we have to make students more involved within their own education, whether it's like in math class, have, you know, like, every quarter, you'll have a project applying, you know, if even if it's calculus, there's a lot of ways to apply calculus. I remember one project that I had was I used to be really into football. So I looked into projectile motion and what the best way to throw a football was, you know, why was this angle the best? And it's something that we know intuitively, maybe from just throwing a ball, but there's actually fascinating math by Find it and you can compute an actual best angle. And it turned out to be, I think, right around 30 to 35 degrees to throw like an American football. So stuff like that tying other subjects into your passion. Podcast Host 15:12 Right, I think we do that a lot, maybe with the humanities where you have like eight different types of papers, you know, tying in maybe your passion for art, or your passion for math with history, your passion for science with history. But we don't do that nearly enough with STEM subjects. Because we feel like we're not at that stage yet. But you can do interesting explorations at every level of your academic upbringing. Because they just look at real world problems, like, you know, it can be history and looking at the, you know, what happened in different wars and going back and having a bit of a discovery through that. And I think maths is just, I, when I go through my mess learning at school, it was just literally learning content for a test, we didn't get a good score, you felt like a straight up failure. And I think there's a lot of students who get turned off from maths because they have too many failures. Whereas they probably have one area of maths, they could really love and apply it to a particular area that they really love and are really interested in. So for students who are interested in doing that kind of investigation outside of class, where do you think they should start? Hamza Alsamraee 16:13 In terms of learning? I think that I mean, online is the best way to start, I want to recommend you hop on any books before you hop and learn stuff online. I mean, contrary to popular opinion, I think Wikipedia is a great resource. So for a general look up, right, let's say you're interested about this one specific concept. And general look up on Wikipedia can tell you quite a lot. For more in depth explorations. I think the site brilliant.org is amazing. Obviously, Khan Academy, other types of math sites, I'm working right now at a tech startup called mastodon, so kind of a shout out to them, you know, of self promo, but mastodon.org has great content, very interactive. And there's quite a lot of websites that start and once you kind of get to learning a lot of that type of stuff, it's time to get involved, whether that is through a school project, you know, a science fair project, you know, forming a math community somewhere or plant, you know, just joining an existing one, I know a brilliant they have like a big math community, or problem solving as a big math community, wherever you can find people who share your passion, that's going to be an accelerator for your own growth. And obviously, like the usual math competitions, we have them at school camera, applying them there. But really, it's a very vast field and how you can apply it, you can look at various fields and how they intersect with math, or you can look at just like the pure mathematics, recreational mathematics. And what I like about math is I think it's one of the most versatile subjects, you can apply math to linguistics, and you can apply math to history, and you can apply math or physics. So whatever interests you aftermath, right, or whatever your primary interest is, find ways to apply it with math, whether it be through projects, competitions, you know, starting your own thing, and I wouldn't get discouraged from wild ideas, like having a math page on Instagram wasn't the most popular idea, right. But a lot of people try not to like it. So don't be afraid to try something that's new, and combine different passions in new ways, because sometimes they can work and they can work wonderfully. Podcast Host 18:16 Yeah, I think that's a that's a very, very good point. And thank you for those resources, we'll put a couple of those in the show notes as well, in terms of your books, let's go back to that. Because you've written two books, you're a young guy, you must have had a fair bit of time sunk into those two books. And I guess it's probably not, you know, quote, unquote, the sexiest thing to be doing is writing books on calculus when you're in high school. But you know, you went out and did that, which is awesome. So take us through that process, like, how did the idea come about? And when you have the idea, what did you do for next steps. Hamza Alsamraee 18:48 So for my first book, honestly came out of the lack of resources that I experienced. So a lot of upper math books on upper math textbooks are very inaccessible in their language, they're very heavily pretreated. And hey, that's a good thing if you're a grad student, or trying to learn that, but for me, I was just honestly there to explore. And I felt like a big barrier between high school level math where there was a lot, there was plenty of resources to learn it, right, from Khan Academy to mapping on brilliant when you go to advanced level stuff, right? It's just suddenly a desert of textbooks. And when textbooks come along, right, even good textbooks, they would always be either very expensive, and accessible. So I want it to be the change I wanted to see in the world. And I decided, hey, why not write a book, but I was probably like, 13 back then. So who qualifies me to write a book about, you know, advanced topic, I ended up writing maybe like, you know, five pages, you know, every week, maybe every month and it was very on and off. wasn't until about my junior year that my friend saw me typing away at a document called book. I was like, What is this? It's like, Oh, I'm writing a book. I've been doing this for like three, four. yours now, like, wait, really, and I just, you know, we had a conversation, he's like, you should really publish this thing I was like it was at that point, it was nowhere near publishable. It was just a bunch of different equations and solutions, and exercises and explanations, it was just all over the place. But once I got that advice from him, I started working on you know, actually making a publish publishable textbook. And I saw it kind of like a traditional publishing contract at first. But then I realized why I was doing this in the first place. And it's because to make it more accessible. And if I were to go publish with an academic publisher like Springer, or I don't know, Oxford or Cambridge, they would charge me the same no matter how much if I even if I gave up completely on royalties, which were barely anything for Academic Publishers, they'd still charge very high amounts. And I basically have no power or control over the content, they'll just have to mold it to their liking. So I decided to self publish it, I wanted to do it before my 17th birthday. So I can say I'd been at 16. So I did it two days before my 17th birthday. And I mean, it was a beautiful feeling to press that Publish button. And eventually I self published through Amazon. And it worked out great, you know, not only can I set my own prices, which are pretty low compared to other textbooks, but you know, I have full control over what I can put in it. And in general, just, I was really surprised to see so many people, you know, kind of being interested in it. And the funniest story that I had was I don't know if this is real or not, but on my daily math, email, someone emailed me. And he was like, I think it was like, Oh, I'm emailing you. Like I just, I was in prison for seven years. And I wanted help on your book, chapter two, exercise seven or something. And I don't know how my book made it to prison. But if someone read it in prison, hey, like props to him? Yeah, so that was the wildest story. A lot of story I've had with the book, but I was really surprised to see it reach so many people, I mean, only, it's, I think sold around 4000 copies by now. But for an advanced calculus book, that's a huge number. You know, very nice, nice textbook. Podcast Host 22:13 If I was asked to write a advanced calculus textbook, firstly, I would say you're asking the wrong person. But if I did have that kind of level of knowledge, right, I would also write a whole lot of equations and solutions and put a couple of explanations in there. But then it would be still I feel a long way from looking like a textbook. So what was the biggest challenge for you in bringing all that three or four years of content? That sounds like a massive headache? What was your approach to try and format it in a way that was accessible for students? So Hamza Alsamraee 22:43 yeah, I mean, since I self published it, right, so with an academic publisher, so you have a dedicated editor, you have a dedicated, maybe team of like, people, beta readers, so I didn't have those institutional resources. So I leverage the power of the daily math community, I brought an editor from outside, you know, that I knew from, you know, a teacher, a teacher recommended her, and she worked with me. And you know, I had a connection with someone that wrote a similar book that would give that gave me feedback on your kind of the general structure of the book. So don't be afraid to use resources. And if anything, you have to use outside resources, especially if you're a high schooler trying to publish, you know, more niche textbooks, especially something that's nonfiction where you have to have authoritative sources, authoritarian voice throughout the book. So what I did Besides, you know, getting that editor and getting that Professor to help is I would actually just hop on my daily math page and kind of advertise like, Hey, does anyone want to read kind of like a beta version of the book so they can give feedback on it. And I made sure that I selected people from all types of backgrounds. So I selected high school students, I selected undergrads, I selected graduate students. So I would get feedback at all levels, because hey, if I picked only graduate students, and mathematics, they would have very high level feedback. And it will probably not serve like the targeted audience, which was an early undergraduate student that is vaguely interested in math and as applications. So I made sure to kind of get like a beta team of readers and beta reader team. And they read through it for like a month or two, and they gave me their feedback. And that's how it got to be polished up, you know, it's not the most refined textbook out there. But you know, with the resources that you have, you know, you have to make the best use of them. And eventually, after all the help from these people, it got to a very refined product, where you can publish this and say, Hey, I'm proud of this, and it matches the quality of the market, let's say. Podcast Host 24:46 Yeah, yeah. 100%. That's a good explanation. I'm interested in how many doors does writing a book open for you? Because I think there's a lot of different ways that students can share their interest and share their knowledge. With the world, they could start a podcast, for instance, or they could start an Instagram or they could start a YouTube channel, or you know, they could write a book. But I've always thought that writing a book is kind of that Everest of authority in a field, right? If you if you publish a book, if you get a book out there, that's basically saying to everybody, I know my stuff. Right? And it's a very kind of bold statement that you are the authority in this particular area. And yeah, I'd be interested to hear from you as to if you felt that at all, like when you published advanced calculus, did you feel like you were being treated as an authority in the area? Because you published a book? Hamza Alsamraee 25:36 I would say, like yes and no, in some respects, so I was definitely treated as someone that is, since this book is not quite researched level yet. It's not something that is at the frontier of knowledge. I was currently right. So this is I didn't discover new equations in this book. I'm just teaching stuff that's already in other textbooks in a more accessible and presentable way, you know, especially to people that don't really have the most access to resources. But in terms of like authority figures, I was definitely I felt like given more of an authority in circles of math, education and math communication. Now I got to work I got to talk to some pretty cool people, probably the biggest name that I got to talk to Steven Strogatz. So Steven Strogatz is a New York Times best selling author, he writes books, too. And I won a prize in his name. And we got to me, we got to chit chat a lot. I was part of this initiative. Like back in the summer, we've invited him to be on kind of like a panel, and I got to meet with three blue one Brown. So you definitely get a lot of like verification for being who you are like, hey, let's say you want to establish yourself as an educator or a communicator in a specific field, a book will definitely help you. Like my main goal with this book was just to like help out people, I was originally going to make it free. But then publishing costs, I need to pay for those. So yeah, yeah. And also, like, on that aspect of it, like I noticed that free books don't actually get a lot of reads, when people can get something free. They don't put as much effort into reading it. Yeah. So it was, it was a paradox in terms of, oh, you make a hire more people actually read it. So I think that in terms of writing a book to become an authority figure, that's one way, that's one reason to write a book. And if that is your goal, I would try to make the book more on the side of being lengthy and being more authoritative than being catchy and readable. Because if you want to establish your name, you know, you're gonna have to write a tap more technical, more grandiose, more very general book than, let's say something like paradox is my second book was more of like a recreational math type. You know, it just talks about the history of paradoxes, some of their applications, when nothing like an academic textbook, like my first one was, yeah, no, Podcast Host 28:04 well, it's good to say that you've got ins with the math community, and particularly the math educators, math communicators. That's where I was thinking that you'd probably have a lot of into, there's actually a quite a famous mathematician or math teacher here in Australia. And he's created a YouTube channel called Blue tube. And his name is Eddie Wu. And, and, Hamza Alsamraee 28:22 of course, anyway, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I haven't met him, but I know. Podcast Host 28:25 Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, he, you know, is like a celebrated maths teacher here in Australia, and does some fantastic videos on YouTube. And is there any kind of thought, obviously, like, your charismatic guy? Is there any thought of taking your content on to other platforms, I mean, we'll talk about daily math in a moment. But YouTube, those kinds of things as well as ever thought, Hamza Alsamraee 28:45 definitely, to be honest, I've been slacking on that for about a year now. Always wanted to start a YouTube channel, but it's like, I always delay it in my head, like, Oh, I'm busy this week. Let me start next week. I'm busy this month, let me start next month. So my goal is to definitely have a YouTube channel by the summer, right? That was like my very strict goal for myself, like habit before I started college, and if someone wants to build, so this going more into like social media and kind of the whole, you know, there's a lot of debate on social media platforms, and which is the best one. But really, whatever one you feel most comfortable building an audience in, like, Instagram is very visual. So if you're a visual person, Instagram, obviously YouTube takes the most effort, you have to edit videos, animate them, maybe record videos, it's gonna take a lot of tries. But hey, if you think you want to try it out, try it out. It's very hard to get started. But yeah, whatever the platform may be, I think that you know, if you want to share truly build an audience or build, you know, a community around what you like, I think social media is a great way to start and it's a very underexplored medium. I feel like right now, especially with the COVID era, you can you know, math clubs are hard to make, but you can make a virtual math club on it. Instagram or on YouTube or on Twitter, whatever it may be. Podcast Host 30:03 Yeah, well, you've been doing exactly that with daily math. What was the goal of that community? And what were you trying to convey to your audience in that I know, we discussed earlier that perhaps starting an Instagram math channel, you might think who's going to follow that, but you've got over 100,000 followers, and that's off the back of about 400 or so posts. So it's growing quite quickly. What are you kind of noticing from that community? And what was the content that really kind of generates the most likes and the most kind of excitement from your your community that Hamza Alsamraee 30:36 in terms of why I started the community, to be honest, was twofold. One, I, we didn't have a math club at school, and there wasn't even enough interest for one. So I figured, hey, let me start my own math club. And let me make it on Instagram. And second, mainly to kind of I thought that, hey, maybe even if I get 1000 followers, I started this in June of 2019. Maybe if I get 1000 followers in like five months, which was when I plan to publish my book, maybe, you know, like, 10, people are gonna read it. Now, that was like, I was very modest. Like, I didn't know that many people like math on Instagram. But I was wrong. And I'm glad I was wrong. So the reason it blew up, I feel like I had a strategy. That was in retrospect, I didn't realize that was my strategy. But now I say it is basically just our very niche, like, start with a very narrow audience, you want to target that very narrow audience. And after you get that very loyal following, start expanding your content. So in the beginning, I focus primarily on integral calculus, like that's a very niche area of math. But now I focus on pretty much all types of math, right? Whether it's recreational, you know, it's just cool. Or whether it's like serious research math, or geometry, algebra, whatever it may be, you know, I try to have it on Well, if it's interesting, and the content that really gets the most views is the content that piques people's imaginations and interests them the most, right, and that can take a wide variety of forms. So, you know, it can be an very interesting math problem. But it can also be a really cool math animation, it can be a math concept that seems very obscure, that is well explained. I know, there's this very obscure, like, not totally obscure, but very hard to formulate, theoretically, it's called notaires theorem. And it's this mathematical physics law that talks about how symmetry and conservation laws are actually one in the same thing. So right here, if you move it, this will be symmetry and movement, like linear movement, if you move something, an object, that's an inherent property of the universe, right? If you move like, I don't know, like a phone case, right, from left to right, nothing changes, you can move it just fine. And the same laws of physics apply. So that's, you know, you can prove through that theorem, that that is the reason that, you know, conservation of momentum exists, you know, all these conservation laws, conservation of energy, conservation of mass, have an underlying symmetry, you know, just like how we think of symmetry, yeah. And the universe, whether it be through time symmetry through time symmetry, motion. And it's a very cool concept. But the math behind it looks so complicated. And just the fact that you can simplify it, and a short caption Instagram caption and make people feel like they learn something new. People love that, you know, learning something new is an amazing thing. As long as you make it very catchy and very immersing, you have to make it an immersive experience. You can't let the other person feel like they're lecture that you have to make them feel like they're involved within the journey of exploration. Podcast Host 33:41 Well, that's tough to do in a caption, but what you're going through, yeah, yeah, it that's the real art form of it, right? Like it's making something that is accessible, which I guess in some terms might mean basic, but also technical enough that your community will appreciate it. Can I just ask why integral calculus to start with? Hamza Alsamraee 34:03 It's a really interesting chain of events. So Brilliant. So I told you about the platform, Brilliant that I was really involved in. So Brilliant used to have a lot of that type of stuff, very interesting integrals with lovely results, right? So you can have like an integral that appears in like quantum physics, and somehow pi appears in there. You know, it's like fascinating, those links in math, right. And it was a really, really popular form of problem on brilliant a lot of people were posting these types of problems. And the real the real reason behind that is brilliant, had a big Indian demographic, and the most influential Indian mathematician was Rama, Nugent. And Rama. NuGen had a very deep interest in their roles and he was known as being a crazy integrator, he would do very crazy integrals and somehow, they all turned out right even when he doesn't show a lot of his work. So the reason And that that happened is somehow he borrowed a textbook that had a lot of those that had a little section on, like integrals and very fancy integrals, that just somehow inspired him to do more work in that area. And that just domino effect from a little textbook that he picked up when he was a kid that made him a very popular mathematician that eventually, you know, got brilliant to be filled with these made me really like integrals. And also my book had a lot of them. So it's kind of like a marketing pot for that as well. So yeah, it was you don't have to start with integral calculus, it just has to be something that's very nice, whether, let's say you're into history, start with European history, you know, and maybe even more specific European history means, right? Some person is going to like them, right? Some person is going to be really into that type of stuff. And you can slowly expand to just history in general. Right? And obviously, history is a huge niche, you know, it's very hard to cover all of history, but you don't have to cover all of history. Right? You know, every day, you know, it's a new post, you can post something new. And it's just something that's interesting, whether it be about, you know, ancient Chinese history, or modern Middle Eastern history, whatever it may be, yeah, interests you, you can build a community around it, you know, and that's a very powerful belief. And it's something that I didn't believe initially, especially about math, right. which seemed like a topic that turned off a lot of people. But hey, if you like it, there's probably other people that like it, too. Podcast Host 36:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, one thing that I'm interested in as well Hamza, is that you've referenced a couple, I guess, quote, unquote, math heroes feels like an important thing for you to kind of like have these maths heroes in a way right? Feels like from talking to you that knowing these people and what they've achieved in maths help you expand your frame of reference of what's possible in the area of maths as well. And I think that's a, like when I'm thinking to students today, a lot of the time their frame of reference is very small, it might just be like, the content of the exam. And it might just be like, the best mathematician they might know is their math teacher. So how important was it for you to think to kind of expand that out and to look at these, like, amazing mathematicians, like almost magicians within their field right now really breaking into new ground and trying new things? Was that inspiring for you? Hamza Alsamraee 37:15 Yeah, I mean, I, so I'll tell you a little story. So I was born in Iraq. So I was specifically in Baghdad, the capital, Baghdad, had a very, very cool street called and within the streets, within Abbey was this poet from 1000 years ago. And he was this really influential Iraqi poet. And that street is basically the cultural center of Iraq. It has the biggest bookstore, maybe in the middle waves, the highest concentration of bookstores, in the Middle East. And it was just a lovely place to chat about all types of things. You know, every day, you'll have like, the city's most intellectual, you know, most well known intellectuals come in talking about all types of things. And my grandpa was actually a history professor. Right? So he'd go there a lot, and he'd bring me with him. And obviously, my parents are engineers, so they like math. And they used to bring me books from that street when I was really, really young. Right. So there are a lot of children's books. But they basically described a lot of the rich mathematical history of Baghdad. So from people like, you know, to see who discovered the SOHCAHTOA stuff, right? from people like me, who discovered algebra, they kind of just reading about that and feeling like, I am part of my city's legacy, right. And even at large at a larger scale, I'm part of humanity's legacy, right? Like the things that I'm thinking about right now or thought about before me, that's a beautiful thing to realize that this is just a never ending cycle of human exploration, to understand our place in the world, and you know, kind of who we are as a human species. That's a beautiful thing to think about being connected to these types of people, whether it's like, I had the luck of being born in a city with a rich history. But even if you were born in I don't know, very, like the middle of Canada or the middle of Australia, right, where maybe there's not a lot of ancient mathematicians. That doesn't mean that you're not connected to the very rich history of math throughout the world. Throughout humanity's history and looking up to people like Rama NuGen, like Steven Strogatz, you know, even current people, I feel like that can provide you with a source of inspiration, and a deeper level of meaning to what you do that's outside, like a simple exam grade, because getting good grades getting so good college, like, that's a very cool thing to do. But there's a reason you want to do that stuff. And you got to discover that reason, like, do you just want to be, you know, world class researcher, do you want to really change the world? You know, do you just want to learn, like, there's a reason underlying all of that, and knowing your reason, right, you can definitely tie that in to very influential figures, right. And knowing and I don't have only math role models, you know, I think role models in general, you know, having a lot of those role models in your life. I think that's a very important thing. And it doesn't have to be this great mathematician, it can be someone like your dad, it can be someone like an influential adult in your life. Just the character really is what makes those mathematicians great. I don't like Rama, Nugent, because of his math. I like Ramanujan because of the story. And I feel like that Trumps any mathematical equation. Podcast Host 40:22 Yeah, I love that story. Man also speaks to probably why you're writing books, and prioritize that over starting a YouTube channel, because you went with the granddad to that straight with his full of books all the time, right? So it must be very near and dear to your heart. But something like a really special moment when you press publish on that book, and you're like, hey, yeah, that's my contribution to this kind of legacy that continues on. And hopefully you're kind of helping other people to explore more in that area of maths or whatever it might be. But in terms of the future, where do you think maths is going as a field in general, obviously, like, data science, and that kind of stuff is really, you know, Ai, and machine learning, etc? It really is bringing a whole new kind of possibility to the world of maths. Is that something that you're interested in? Or is that something that you see that, you know, could really bring a more students back to a higher level maths? Hamza Alsamraee 41:15 I think so. I mean, we're moving towards a more technical economy, like right now, more and more jobs are being dedicated to very high level technical fields, and a lot of those require a lot of math. So there's gonna, there's gonna have to be some change. So educational shift, and I feel like, the reason is going to come is because of pressure from other countries. In a lot of ways, the US responds best, when there's an outside threat to the US being like the best at what it does. Yep. So right now, you know, we, we are the mathematical center of the world when you produce the most mathematical output. But if let's say the UK Trumps us, or Japan, Trump's us, or China, Trump says, right, and AI output or math output, that's going to put the Department of Education in a really tight hole where they have to change the math curriculum to reflect the ever changing needs of humanity and the economy. So I definitely think that the things we talked about things like getting rid of so much computation, and actually using computers, instead of deeming them as a cheating device, using a computer isn't cheating, using a computer is just what you do in real life. Yeah. Right. So if a mathematical problem can be solved with the computer, then it's not a math problem. Right? If you can solve it, you know, with a calculator, it's not a math problem. Unless you're talking about like very young students, like in elementary school, like I want them to do arithmetic. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, once you get to high school level, you know, your arithmetic, you can add, you can multiply just fine. You can do fractions. So now it's more about analytical thinking and applying mathematical problem solving to actual problems, right. So you see that all the time in computer science and AI, so it has to really reflect in the education system. And I think that more and more countries are moving towards it. And eventually, you know, the big population centers like India, China, and the US, they're going to move towards that as well. Podcast Host 43:06 Yeah, well, I'm actually reading AI superpowers at the moment, which is a fantastic book that was gifted to me by my co host, Jamie, and I'm sure Jamie would have loved to have chatted with you, by the way, he did applied maths and economics at Harvard. So he's all Yeah, yeah, he's all about maths. I mean, it's interesting from a Crimson perspective, that, you know, as far as I know, we're one of the first kind of college consulting organizations to really bring in a lot of data points. Because Jamie's like a really big believer in the power of data, he loves, you know, stock investing, and that kind of thing, data is one of those things that he just kind of locked on to so we've been collecting just hates your data to try and predict, you know, if a student was to get X amount in their SAT, and they were to, you know, be from this background in this country, and whatever, whatever they asked for this much financial aid, what is their chances are getting into, you know, one of the eight Ivy League's, or whatever it might be, right. And it kind of makes those decisions around, which is usually based on experience of like, Oh, I think the student will get into X number of universities kind of starts backing it up with a little bit more data and those kinds of things. So yeah, from from, it really is a, I think that data side of things is really going to bring in a whole new era for maths and what's possible with it, which is really awesome. And you as you said, they a lot of jobs, and a lot of them are pretty highly paid too. So not a bad place to end up. I think they're speaking of which, you know, in colleges, where are you getting into college for your summer? Hamza Alsamraee 44:33 So yeah, for for my college, so it's a bit complicated. So I applied last year, and I committed to a school so I committed to Northwestern, but then what happened is I realized that there's a little financial aid policy that's not really that works out the best for my situation. So I reapply to a few schools this year, who have a little bit better financial policy, so I'm not really sure where I'm gonna end up Northwestern is still my likely option, but if I get into a better school, like with terms of like, you know, better financial aid Probably just going to go there. So yeah, pretty much undecided right now. Podcast Host 45:03 Yeah. Well, Northwestern still a great choice. But yeah, there are, yeah, financial aid, obviously, you know, can make or break a decision really like it. I mean, 1000s and 1000s of dollars. So completely understand that. And what are you looking to study there? Hamza Alsamraee 45:15 Definitely math, definitely physics, so double major in that. And for my minor if I have time, computer science minor, really, I'm interested in the field of quantum computing. So math, physics, and computer science is like the Holy Trinity for quantum computing, math for the algorithm aspect of it, computer science for how to program it and Physics for how to make it happen. So that's where I want to be. That's the feel I want to be in the future. And I think that trio would really prepare me for it. Podcast Host 45:43 Yeah. And if you got any companies in mind that you would love to work for or like, you might want to start your own I guess. Hamza Alsamraee 45:48 Yeah, I mean, I'm not really sure I don't have my eyes on a lot of stuff. I mean, obviously, Google, IBM, Microsoft, they have a lot of cool stuff regularly. They have cool stuff, too. But yeah, there's a lot of companies in the quantum ecosystem right now. But I might just have, you know, a revolution, that's the goal is to have something that's revolutionary, that will make be able to start my own startup in the field. Podcast Host 46:11 Yeah, well, I think that'd be a pretty cool thing. I think it's an interesting, you know, conversation around those kind of futures of careers. Because I know that a lot of traditional pathways are a lot more kind of obvious to students, when they're going through high schools, like, you know, if you're smart do medicine or law type of thing, and particularly here in Australia, like, it's not really the dumb thing to go into computer science yet. Whereas in the US, like, electrical engineering, computer science is, you know, pretty hot property over there. But yeah, it's interesting to kind of look at the future of maths and where that might take students. So hopefully, they can kind of follow along with your journey. And speaking of which, if they wanted to follow your journey, what would be the best way to get in contact with you? Hamza Alsamraee 46:53 Yeah, so um, just email me, or you can DM me on daily math, I try to respond to a lot of people there. So those are the best ways to get in touch with me. I post a lot of cool stuff on daily map. So if you're into Bab, go follow me there. And definitely, if you want to reach out even about, you know, like stuff other than math, if you want to ask about anything, I'm down to be reached daily math. Podcast Host 47:14 Yeah. Well, the show notes are going to be packed with links. I can tell you that much. But man, it's been fantastic chat. And thank you so much. Actually, before you go, what would be your final parting advice? Hamza Alsamraee Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway from high school is like a lot of people try to be good at everything. But you just have to be good at one certain thing to really provide value to the world. It's cool to be active in a lot of different areas. But really finding your one single thing, that's the best thing you can do for yourself. And hey, if you can't find that out, that's totally fine, too. And I guess my second biggest takeaway from high school is, it's not what you do inside that matters in the long run, right? Like good grades, obviously, count being involved in clubs, sports, like those are obviously good data points, you know, for your future. But really, what matters is what you explore outside, kind of have to make your own path. And you can't really follow anyone else's, because they're different people with different interests with different abilities with different circumstances. So it's scary. And it sounded scary to me to have to do a lot of stuff like for the first time, like, not a lot of Instagram math pages I can reach out to especially people who are starting out when they were very young. Not a lot of young people who wrote books. So sometimes it's like, a dark journey, right? But hey, if you're really passionate about something, I'd really recommend, just do whatever is in mind, and find new ways to bring value to the world, whether it's, you know, through outreach and education, or through innovation and starting something new or whatever it may be. Just think about the big picture and just go at it. Podcast Host Perfect. Well, thanks so much, Hamza. It's been awesome chatting. I hope students take advantage of those links in the show notes. And yeah, look forward to sharing this episode far and wide. Hamza Alsamraee Great. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I love the conversation.

Ep#1 College Chats - Former UChicago Admission Officer, Steve Han, on Putting Passion into Applications

Ep#1 Former UChicago Admission Officer, Steve Han, on Passion into Applications

🗓 FEB 3, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:16 Hello, and welcome to the first episode of the college chats podcast. It's a new series of the top of the class where we're going to be focusing on college admissions. And I'm delighted to have former US Chicago admission officer and now current Crimson senior strategist Steve Hahn with us today, Steve, welcome to college chats. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Steve Han 00:38 Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, my name is Steve. I currently live in Los Angeles, California. Previously, I've lived in New York and Korea and Florida. I went to the University of Chicago, where I graduated in 2017. With a BA in biology. I now work as with Crimson as a senior strategist. I also work as a full time actor and comedians. I do TV and commercial work. Yes. And then, in Chicago, I worked. I worked with the admissions office a lot at the University of Chicago. So I've been working there since 2013. And I read admissions from 2016 to 2018. So I help them get the classes of 2021 and 2022. That's pretty much my background. Podcast Host 01:19 And you're the the Tik Tokker. Steve Han 01:22 I am the Tik Tokker. I Tik Tok with Sam for Crimson, for Crimson as well. Podcast Host 01:28 So yeah, for students out there having a listen to the podcasts, maybe they can go ahead and listen to the tick tock, and vice versa, potentially, as well. Maybe new Tick Tock is joining us on the podcast brought over by your fame. And and I love it, I love it. I mean, what a random career path I guess you've had in terms of like studying biology, to be into the admissions office to be doing comedy. And now we're doing Tick Tock. I'm going to guess it's been a bit of a wild ride. But do you enjoy the role as being a currency strategist? Steve Han 01:57 Yeah, it's great. I always say the admissions process is like a board game that someone's mom lost the instruction manual to so no one knows how to play the game. And everyone's guessing, like, what works and what doesn't work. And my job is just to provide some clarity and provide an instruction manual, essentially, just to make it make a little bit more sense. That's essentially it. Podcast Host 02:18 I love that analogy. I think everybody's got at least one of those games lying around the house, which, you know, you're just trying to look at the cover of it, and just trying to figure out what is this game all about? Based on cover image? Right. So what are we chatting about today? What kind of topic? Do you want to delve into a little bit more? Steve Han 02:33 Yeah, I think talking a little bit more about what passion looks like, on an application. And I think that, for me, personally, as someone that's read admissions, and for me when I applied to college, you know, I, I got into, you know, a few Ivy League plus schools. So, you know, I ended up going to University Chicago, so I think, um, you know, the, the biggest thing for me is just how to indicate passion on like paper, essentially. Podcast Host 02:57 Yeah, I think it's such an interesting topic, because I think it's such a vague one as well, in many respects, like, you know, students are often told follow your passions, and who knows exactly what that is, or how to then express it in an application, I think super important. So from your side of things, yeah. How does passion come across in an application and what students can do to make sure that they're presenting their quote, unquote, passion in the best way possible? Steve Han 03:21 Yeah. So yeah, it is totally a phrase that we hear all the time words. Yeah, students are told, and it's hard from young age to know what your passions are. Because you're, you're, you know, you're only 16 1718. And you haven't lived as much life as like, you know, someone like you, you were I have, for example, and it's just, it's hard to pinpoint that. So I think a big a big misconception that a lot of students have about the admissions process is that they have to be, like amazing at everything that they'd like 10,000 things right. They think that they have to be like a math competition star, but they also have to be Allstate orchestra. And they also have to No, there's just there's this misconception about like, everything that goes into being a stellar applicant. And I think something to keep in mind is that an admissions office is not making a class of well rounded students. They're making a well rounded class of stellar students. Right? That's the main thing, right? is that it's a Do you play Pokemon? Podcast Host 04:14 I have dabbled in Pokemon. Yes. Okay. Steve Han 04:17 I use this metaphor, because I do mostly work with like stem thirds, which is my brother, brother. That's me. Yeah, I always thought that right? If you are listening to this, and you're a Pokemon fan, but you know, we're not making like an Ash Ketchum, like the lead of the TV show, or make who has like one of every type of Pokemon we're making like an OBE for or like, like a gym or making like, you have to just like being specialized helps you in this case, right? Which doesn't mean like, you can't be good at a bunch of things. That's not what we're saying. If you are the kind of person that is well rounded like that, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but don't feel the pressure to do a bunch of different things. Because what passion ends up looking like on application is that it really comes out in your essays more than anything because you can write almost anything to like look good and activity list or a resume or whatnot, because it's just listing things. But in your essays, it really comes across when someone when a student is really passionate about a topic or really excited about a topic, it is way more enjoyable for me as a reader to read it. But it also just gives us a chance for adding three dimensionality to an essay or to an application. Because otherwise, you know, if you look at me, for example, you know, in high school, I was a math star, I didn't also orchestrated varsity swimming, I was like, pretty like, good at a lot of different things. But you know, if you took my statistics, there's a lot of students that probably look like me across the country, my school, even my city. And the thing that added like flavor and color and texture to my application, were my essays, right, where I have a sense of humor. So my essays, not only one of my essays was serious, but the rest of them were all, you know, like, pretty facetious and light hearted. So, you know, when I used to bring students into a room to like, argue for their case, in the admissions process, I would never refer to them as like, by their test score, or their grades or whatever. It was always like, oh, remember that kid that wrote about XYZ, right? My favorite essay I still ever read from you, Chicago was this essay that you would never thought the student would have written this essay It was about. His application was like very stem focused. He had done a lot of research, like a lot of math sciences. But his essay, the question that year was like, combined to historical figures, or pop culture figures or whatever make like, write us a story about this new person's biography. And we got a lot of like, fine answers for that one. But he was my favorite one, because he wrote about, he combined, Lil Kim, the rapper with Kim Jong moon. So it was low Kim Jong moon, and it was this, it was really it was so it was just stupid is the best way to put it. It was so good. So funny. So you know, and his passion. Ultimately, what we found through the essay was he's a really big into pop culture, like he was a quizbowl star. And his position, I guess, on the on the clinical team was pop culture, even though you can't really write about that an activity list. So it became very evident to us that that was just as passion. So passion doesn't have to have like, I think that's another thing is that students think that there needs to be like an external metric of success for passion. And that's not the case at all right, you're able to quote you, you can have qualitative metrics of success that you define internally for an essay. So yeah, that was a long way of saying, you know, passion really comes across in your essay. So write about things that actually are of interest to you. Because a lot of essays we get our, as an admissions office reader is, you know, a lot of them are like, pretty, are they just, they lack passion. So a lot of them are read in such a way where they're like, my name is this, I am interested in business, you know, they list their resume out essentially, under or their activity list, which we recommend not doing on your essay, it should be a chance to show another facet of your application. So yeah, I think like, allow something that's actually of interest to you, whether you're serious or silly, or whatever, in between, like, showcase that on paper. Podcast Host 07:44 Yeah, I think passion is such an interesting topic, particularly for students, as you said, they might not have necessarily had the chance to do some of the things that they might be passionate about. So say, for instance, as a student who's really passionate about astrophysics, or building cars, or whatever it might be, but at school, they might not have had like, the opportunity to go out and actually do those things as yet. So most of their passion would be based on either their readings of other people who are building cars, and those kinds of things. Is that still legit passion if the student can show that through their essays and extracurriculars? Steve Han 08:17 Yeah, of course. I mean, I think another thing that students forget is that the stellar cases that you see in the news and whatnot, they they compare themselves to those students who are like on Shark Tank at the age of 16, or Yeah, you know, are Olympians or whatever. And one really important thing to remember is that an admissions office is really hyper cognizant, most of the time about barriers of access their barriers of entry, you know, knowing the difference between like access and equity for, you know, a student coming from x area versus y area, right? Like, you know, we take that into account 100%, because we that's why we asked for a lot of other forms that you have to submit because, again, your school gives us a school report. So there's, there's a lot of reasons for that, so that it gives us understanding. So just because you want to be a you know, an astronaut one day, but you haven't done like a NASA training program, as a high schooler doesn't mean that we're not going to like MIT will accept you, right? There are a lot of ways to engage passion beyond just what ultimately our points of access to like, you know, points of privilege or whatnot, right. So especially nowadays, I think the conversation is way more moving towards equity versus equality, equity rather than equality. And so, you know, for a student if, if you're worried about your passion, not necessarily being as, like I mentioned earlier, a quantitative metric of success. Don't worry, there's a lot of ways to qualify that explain that add texture to your application to be able to showcase it in a different kind of way. I mean, for me, for example, I really loved comedy for a long time. I never knew I could do comedy professionally in any kind of capacity. But I showcase my interest in comedy and pop culture as well by writing by every single one of my essays. And that just showed up for me even though I had never done like an MVC fellowship right and never done like I wrote 30 rock, the TV show you have in a lot of my essays. Even though like I'd never done a page internship, but nothing in my application would scream, this guy should go into comedy one day except for my essays. But you know, that's when I talked to my admissions officer. He was like, yeah, we remember you. I was like the funny, like the random funny kid from Florida. You know? Podcast Host 10:14 Nice, nice, nice. Well, one of my other questions on passion is, I think a lot of students confuse being really good at a subject with their passion as well. So they might say, Well, I'm really good at maths. But they might not necessarily like love it, they only enjoy it, because they're really good at it. So yeah. Is that something that an admissions officer is able to tell the difference about? And if a student is really good at something, but isn't yet really passionate about it? How do you perhaps convert that into a passion? Or what would be your recommendations for a student? Who's in that situation? Who says, Well, I'm really good at a whole lot of subjects, but I can't really see anything that I'm necessarily passionate about right now. Steve Han 10:54 Yeah, I mean, well, first off, what's easier to remember in college that like most universities that this the students that are looking towards probably aren't like trade schools where you would only be doing like one thing so keep in mind when you're when you're good at a subject that will help you in college even if you're not necessarily going to major in it because generally a college course breakdown is a 34 classes, at least American universities. A third of your courses are your major a third are your general electives. And then third are general requirements. And a third are your your electives. You have like room in your schedule. And part of it is that you have to be able to have a lot of diversity of thoughts in your course load. So just because you're good at something doesn't mean that it's going to stop as soon as you go to college academically speaking at least right extracurricular Li, that's a different story. But you know, I'm definitely that won't stop in terms of how to convert something like not like being good at math, but not necessarily being passionate about it. I asked a student that pursued not and I say this as someone that I liked it not competitions from third grade till the day I I missed my high school graduation to go to a math competition. Like I was doing it till the summer after I graduated, I was doing math competitions for my school that my team, so I get it, but I'm not like, I'm not gung ho about math, I just I know I'm good at it. I realized maybe too late on in my high school career that I was passionate about winning, which is not not not a good enough reason to do something. But it's not about winning. And I knew that the easiest way for me to get there was math, right? So for me, having gone through it, and not being able to explore that I challenge the student into thinking, you know, if, if you are good at math, let's say but and you continue to do it, but you're not necessarily passionate about it. Think about like, what about the experience of math is deriving joy for you from it? Because it might not be the math itself. It might be like the camaraderie, it might be the competitive aspect, whatever, how can you dissect your experience in this certain thing into a discrete unit, take that out, isolate it and think about what other realms are there for me to explore as a high school student that still allow me to derive joy from this like specific facet of something that I'm good at. Right. So in math again, for me, I really enjoyed winning, and I enjoyed the camaraderie right. So for me, I ended up doing more like Student Government volunteer work, too, right. And that ended up being a really like, big joy of mine as well, my senior year of high school. So, you know, it's, I think it's a lot easier said than done. But you can find points of joy derivation, I guess, from things that you're good at. And then once you are able to identify that zoom in and magnify that and then find where passion can kind of filter through that lens. Podcast Host 13:21 Yeah, I think that's a such a good tip. So yeah, it's kind of like not necessarily focusing on the big picture here is kind of like focusing on the niche type of thing. Like why do you enjoy math? Is it not necessarily because of the problem solving or that kind of stuff? Maybe it is, you know, the fact that you enjoy sitting next to the person in class, what's that connection that you have with that person, and explore that a little bit more explore the, you know, the winning side of things as you did and rescind your graduation, to enter Mexico, which is pretty cool. Okay, so we've explored passions, and I think we could explore this a lot more. For students who are interested in wanting to explore their passion, little bit more, maybe they could, you know, request a academic consultation with an academic advisor, I'll put a link down in the show notes for that. But let's get into the top tips for students to stand out to be the top of the class, we've covered a few bits and pieces already, but through your experiences, which are many and varied, what would be one or two of your top tips for students to stand out? Steve Han 14:16 Yeah, my first top tip would be start practicing your personal statement early, like start practicing writing that that 650 word personal statement limit that exists in the US at least is really niche and hard to hit naturally. And a lot of students are really bad at talking about themselves, like surprisingly. So I mean, I can't relate to that because I talk about myself way too much. But you know, for if you are bad at talking to yourself, that's okay. And that's actually probably good and your mental health is probably much more stable than mine. But what I will say is, you know, when you are, if you are bad talking about yourself, you need to practice being able to advocate for yourself and talking about yourself and answering a question that is about you, right, a lot of admissions questions aren't trying to trick you, but students get really tripped up in them, right. So for example, a really common essay ends up like is asking the question of writing about someone that's really inspired you or your that you look up to. It's a really common essay topic. And most students end up writing the entire essay about like this teacher that they'd hoped was amazing and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's great. But this school is not admitting that person, the school is admitting you so you have to remember how to bring it back to you. Right? So is that answering the question? Why are they a good teacher answer the question, why are they a good teacher? For you? Why are they specifically a good teacher? For you? What are the qualifications that you need to a teacher to meet to be able to be satisfactory to you? And why did they go above and beyond that right for you. So being able to bring it back to you is a really hard skill to hone in. But the students that have been practicing personal statements or writing an if statements are you know about themselves tend to do better in the essay arena. So that will always help a student. That's number one. And number two, if you're listening to this in ninth and 10th grade, my biggest recommendation is invest in yourself and allow yourself to go out for things that might scare you and build a diversity of interests for yourself. Because you are one allowing yourself to pick and choose from the best options for yourself when you get older when you are busier, and you have to hone in and go more depth rather than breadth. But to you know it, it just allows you to embed yourself so that when you apply as a senior, you have four years of experience to pull from your four years of experience to talk about your four years of experience going into university so that if you were to continue it