Top of the Class Podcast Transcript Library

#9 College Tips - The Founders Trend and Why it Won't Always Get You to Top Unis

🗓 MAR 31, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to college tips. On today's episode, I chat with the managing director of crimson education USA and Canada. Anjali Bhatia, a graduate of Duke University and Wharton MBA program until he reflects on recent admissions history and challenges the belief that you now need to start an organization to get into a top university. Let's chat with Anjali. Hi, Anjali. Welcome to College Tips. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Anjali 00:47 Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. Sure. So my name is Anjali. I grew up in northern New Jersey right outside of New York City. And in high school, I actually became very passionate around this concept of social entrepreneurship for high school students. So I ended up starting a nonprofit initiative that was designed around helping high schoolers learn the right skills of social entrepreneurship, and make the impact in the causes they cared about. So this is going to date me but this was in the early 2000s. So we actually made our program on DVDs. There's a DVD based lesson plan, and we were selling it to high schools around the country. And it was a really great experience. And that led me to Duke University where I was a Robertson scholar scholarship given for leadership. And I stayed very passionate about education. So when I graduated, I worked in strategy consulting for Accenture's education practice, mostly worked with the US Department of Education in DC. So it was an amazing experience. And then, after a few years, went back for my MBA at Wharton, and when I graduated, I wanted to find a company that was exciting and education that was really using technology and was data driven. That was specifically helping high schoolers with leadership. So I came across Crimson, and I've been here ever since. And my role I oversee Crimson for the US and Canada. Podcast Host 02:22 Awesome. Yeah. Well, it's such a journey. And I know a bit about your story, of course, as being your colleague for the last number of years. But it's awesome to kind of hear it laid out that way. And I didn't know you didn't MBA at Wharton. That's pretty cool, too. Which one do you think was more formative in terms of the person you are today? 02:39 Oh, absolutely. I'd say Duke. I think that's a function of undergrad really being your first love. You know, you, you build that connection, it's your first time away from home. I absolutely loved Wharton too. And I think having worked prior to doing my MBA, it was so rich, being able to connect what I was learning to my experiences. So I think both were phenomenal. But I'm a huge Blue Devil fan. And yeah, I wear Duke gear all the time. Podcast Host 03:08 Nice, nice. Stay true to the Blue Devil. Fair enough. Now, what are we talking about today, what's near and dear to your heart that you'd like to share with students. Anjali 03:17 So I noticed the last really 10 years, high schoolers are very focused on this idea that you need to start a club or a nonprofit, or some sort of initiative to get into a top school. And you know, as someone who did start a nonprofit in high school, and now I support a lot of our Crimson students in their passion projects throughout high school. I actually have a lot of thoughts on this. And I, I don't think it's necessary for you to start your own organization. So yeah, I'd love to chat a little bit about that. Podcast Host 03:50 I think that's a super relevant topic. And certainly something that I come across a lot because obviously hosting the podcast as well chatting to a lot of founders, co founders, students who have intentions to be founders, co founders, etc, of different initiatives. And it does certainly give the impression that you need to be a founder of these amazing clouds, because that's often the stories that I think students hearing when they look at, you know, students who get into all eight IVs, or students who went from their school across to the Ivy League, or to Stanford or MIT or whatnot. So where do you think that trend started to originate? And is it so far gone now that like, it's even in the minds of admission officers? Anjali 04:32 Yeah, that's a great question. So let's go a little bit into admissions history. So yeah, I think prior to the 80s, there was this idea that you had to be a renaissance man or woman, but you had to be that varsity athlete plus editor of the newspaper Plus, you know, having some sort of music, you know, being taught in the piano and having all of those made you well rounded. And then I feel like when we get into the 90s, what we saw was a lot of pursuit towards being extraordinary in fewer things. So this term well lopsided. So you start to see that people were not needing to be completely well rounded. But instead, they did really well in a few things. And that became interesting. But then it kept pushing, right. So then it became, Oh, you didn't just do well, and things, you created your own club. And now it's really escalated to this idea of having created an organization, it's just getting more competitive than ever, and you want to keep upping the bar in terms of what you've done. Now, you had this question, you know, like our admissions officers just looking for that. And I think it's actually gone the other way, where admissions officers are becoming jaded, they're like, Okay, this kid has started yet another club. But what have they really done? And I think now we're at this point in the 2020s, where they don't care if you have that term founder anymore, because everyone does. Instead they're looking solely at impact. You know, how much did you actually seem to have cared about this? When did you started? How many years of commitment did you have? And what was the actual amount of work you did? And how did that result in helping others, or you know, the amount of revenue or amount of app downloads. So what we're seeing is those kids that you hear about that are getting into all of the Ivy's and getting all the scholarships, the initiatives they started were extraordinary, you know, they often had international impact, they have really high numbers. You know, apps have 40,000 plus downloads. And that's not something that people are just doing and have their junior year, right. It's something built over time. But what I have actually seen being really effective. And maybe this doesn't get as much of that press and coverage is people who take this like concept of entrepreneurship, but they also build it within existing organizations. So perhaps they volunteer with an existing nonprofit, instead of starting their own dealing with all the paperwork and trying to recreate the wheel. They'll go into that nonprofit and start something new for that nonprofit, and really build and scale and initiative that way. So it's creating less waste. And it's really creating a much more sustainable model of helping versus a club that only stays around for two years and has 20 members. Podcast Host 07:29 Yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting to kind of understand for students that being a founder may actually end up backfiring for your application, because it looks as if it's a box that now needs to be ticked, I need to be a founder of an organization. Is there any time where you've seen that in a student that's come to you and said, Hey, Angela, like, I've got a great application? What do you mean, look, I'm the founder of an organization and you're like, I can kind of see that that's not really achieving what you think you might be achieving through the admissions process? Anjali 08:00 Oh, absolutely. And I find that students kind of repeatedly default to working on the exact same ideas. So I think this is like, understandable. Because you're all in high school, you've had very similar experiences. But I've seen a lot of nonprofits focused on STEM education, for example. So you go to perhaps underserved areas, and you try to teach STEM concepts. And that itself is a great thing to do we need more STEM education in a lot of communities. But do you need to create a whole separate nonprofit for it? Or can you do it within an existing organization? You know, what are ways for you to really accelerate things that don't don't mean that you have to kind of, again, create everything from scratch? Podcast Host 08:46 Yeah, because in reality, you could probably have more impact in an existing organization and doing a lot there and kind of having that intrapreneurship, you know, kind of innovating within the existing organization, then you would having to fluff around starting a new one, all by yourself with a couple of friends. And, you know, you might have half the impact that you would if you were using the existing organization, is that something that you've seen as well, where you're like, why didn't you just join this organization? Why do you feel like you needed to start your own? Anjali 09:14 Absolutely. And I think it it takes a little bit of acceptance that you won't have that founder title, but understanding how you can accelerate and within an existing institution to you have a lot more resources guidance. And again, you have that default that they can continue a program even after you leave. So creating initiatives with the intention of sustainability after you're gone means that it's not really just about you. It's much more about the mission to and I think that's very impressive to admissions officers. Podcast Host 09:48 Yeah. Well, I'm interested in how students can recreate that founder type of leadership. I mean, like it does show leadership I guess, in some respects to show initiative in some respects as well. So how students can show that in other extracurriculars as well, because I think that's probably the reason why perhaps they're trying to gravitate towards that founder leadership role, because they're like, this is what it shows admissions officers, it shows that I've got initiative and leadership, when in actual fact, I probably could use those qualities or show those qualities and a lot of other different ways. So what are some of those other different ways that they could show those founder like qualities? Anjali 10:25 Yeah, I would say the first thing I would really encourage students is to look up the concept of design thinking, you know, books that are very famous, like the lean startup, give you a lot of those tools of how you can actually identify problems that exist versus what you perceive exist. So let's say you find that you're really passionate about homelessness, rather than just saying like, Okay, I'm going to start an initiative for the homeless, spend that time volunteering at a homeless shelter, you know, volunteer with a couple of different organizations and see what they're doing. Once you actually are able to understand what they're going through their limitations, you'll notice more problems that are designed to really help your target audience. So by volunteering in the shelter, for example, you can have communication with people who are homeless, you can understand what they're going through. And that's where your best ideas are going to come. And I think at that point, you can very eloquently point out to the nonprofit, you're volunteering with a new idea of something they can try. And by saying you'll take ownership of that, they're going to be quite excited, right? Like people want high schoolers to take initiative, and they're always looking for more help. So I think it's a matter of being able to accurately convey what you plan to do and how you'll do it. And then people are very eager to have people get involved, Podcast Host 11:47 right. And that's a good tip. Anjali 11:48 But if you go to an institution, and they seem very uninterested to have a high school, or help, that's when you can go and kind of start something from scratch, that's when you can try and bypass and become that founder. And you have that reason of why you needed to do that. versus just kind of again, going for that title. Podcast Host 12:06 Yeah, fair enough. Well, for students who are very keen on being a founder and want to have that experience and want to feel like that is part of their identity. What are some of your recommendations for students who say, I hear you, I don't need to be a founder necessarily, but I really want to I really want to stand out not in the application necessarily, but just back that is central to who I am. And I'm really passionate about teaching stem in in underprivileged communities, for instance, whatever it might be, what advice would you give to them to make sure that even among all the students who are putting found on their application that they actually do stand out as a founder, Anjali 12:44 I think it all comes back to measuring impact. So from the beginning, you don't want your accolade to have been starting this organization, you want to have really clear metrics of what you're hoping to achieve. And think about how you can make it scalable. So let's say you design 10 lesson plans around stem and you deliver it to a local school. What are other ways you can take those lesson plans and bring it to communities around the world. So start thinking really big, because ultimately, it's that scale of the impact. That's quite impressive in admissions. But beyond admissions, that's where you're helping 1000s of people versus, you know, a few in your community. So I'd say think big, but think really efficiently. Think about ways that, you know, you can really partner with an existing larger organization to get your lesson plans out there, for example, or you know, how you can partner with people around the world, which we see a lot with our Crimson students, right. You know, they have some excellent initiatives, and we can pair them together around the country around the globe. They can bring it to different places, which is incredible. Podcast Host 13:54 Yeah, yeah. Well, this actually reminds me Actually, you pretty much described one of the students that was on the podcast, como Vich, who runs biz back and founded biz back and then created chapters in other schools. And now it's an international organization with all these different chapters and about 11,000 students participating in biz back, but they partnered with deca, which is obviously the one of the big organizations there in the US. And it all started by her, like feeling that there wasn't enough initiative or wasn't enough teaching of like basic life skills for high school students, and even for younger kids as well. And then High School, and she kind of created a lesson plan gave it to a local primary school principal. And the principal was like, Yeah, let's do it after school program bank, that was the very first, you know, biz back chapter. And then since then, now, it's all around the world. So I guess that's a really great example of students who have extended Far, far beyond their original idea. So for students who are interested in a great example, check out combo vigils episode and then there was also another great student Stephanie, who wrote a book wrote a curriculum donated 1000 masks from the sale of the book. And she also taught the class to 1000s of students in Texas, which was about epidemiology. So, yeah, there's definitely some great examples out there for you hearing those just briefly, obviously, and they the examples that you think would impress admission officers. Anjali 15:15 Oh my gosh, absolutely anything here you're talking in the 1000s. You're talking students who've created things. That's so cool. Like, I want to sit down and meet them like you did. And that's how admissions officers feel. They aren't looking for some, you know, metric. They're not trying to tick boxes on your application. They want to meet students that inspire them. And those are both incredibly inspirational stories. Podcast Host 15:41 Yeah, fantastic. Oh, Angela, do you have any final advice for students who are thinking about wanting to go to the US and trying to think about how to craft the most impressive extracurricular portfolio? Anjali 15:53 Absolutely focus on what you truly care about, if you just really love to play soccer, or you love to play video games, or if there's one cause that you've seen on the news, and it really bothers you learn more about it, explore that area, because you are much more likely to work on an initiative if you are enjoying it. And a lot of students instead try to kind of follow the path of someone else they've seen or do what they think they're supposed to do. And I'll tell you, there really is no right path so you can do what you enjoy and still kind of make an impressive profile. So I've seen, you know, people who are addicted to things like fortnight, still come up with awesome ways to give back to the community. So we had a student who did this whole video game tournament for charity. So for every additional hour, they played video games, they were raising more money for charities they selected. Podcast Host 16:47 That's ideal! Anjali 16:49 Yeah, I've seen people masterfully use Instagram for causes. You know, they love social media, and they owned it. So figure out what you enjoy, and just go for that. And it's going to be a great experience for you as well, in that case. Podcast Host 17:02 Yeah, I love that advice. I think so many students try and shoehorn their particular passion or bypass their particular passion, because they don't think it will show up as well on an application. But there you go, fortnight charity event and just play games for charity, which is I think many students are like, that's an extra curriculum where you can you can be a great initiative. You know, that's awesome. I love that advice. Well, for students who are interested in working with amazing people like Anjali on their applications, there's going to be a link in the show notes for a free one hour consultation. So be sure to click on that if you would like a chat with one of our lovely academic advisors from all around the world. But Anjali, it's been awesome having you on college tips. Thank you so much for your wisdom and advice, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Anjali 17:46 Awesome. Thank you for having me. Outro 17:48 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#40 How a 15-year-old Turned a Newsletter Into a Global Social Change Media Company

🗓 MAR 27, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And in today's episode, I chat with social change advocate and founder of Thred Media, 15 year old Jenk Oz. Jenk talks about how family newsletter evolved into a global media company with a following in the hundreds of 1000s. And he's advice for students wanting to do the same. Let's chat with Jenk Oz. Hi Jenk, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Jenk Oz 00:48 Firstly, great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. My name is Jenk Oz. I'm 15 years old. I am the, and what we will be talking about today is the fact that I am the founder of Thred Media, which is a social enterprise based around four things publishing, media consulting and production content aimed at Generation Z, the central tenet of the website is the other central tenet of the business is the website. And that is a social change based website, basically talking about everything of youth culture through the lens of social change. Podcast Host 01:19 Wow, that's quite an introduction you got there. And there's a lot of things going on a lot of things I'm sure we could talk about. But obviously, like, I think it's quite interesting to have a media company at 15 years of age. What point does it become a media company? Like how do you take say, for instance, an idea or like an Instagram page, or whatever it might be? And then start calling it a media company? Is it just like a turn of phrase? Or is it something that you have to get to a certain level or benchmark before you can actually call yourself a media company? Jenk Oz 01:54 Well, I think there's a few points you said there, I think the fact that if you want to turn your idea or your Instagram page, he says intermediate company, it is crucial that you think of it as a media company. And the only way that you're going to make that transition from an idea to a company is by thinking of your idea as a company, or else if you kind of as a really good quote I heard is, if you think of your idea, as a dream today, it will be a dream tomorrow. But if you think of your idea, as a company today will be a company tomorrow. So I feel like that that turning point is much more of a your side mental thing than other people labeling it as a media company, or kind of hitting a benchmark of a set amount of followers or kind of getting verified I think it's much more of a of a mental change a you have to make to be able to then progress. Podcast Host 02:43 Okay, well take us through your timeline for Thred Media, then from like, initial idea through to the moment you've thought of it as like a media company to where it is today with like, huge reach and a nearly 100,000 followers on Instagram doing, you know, across all different platforms you are at the moment. So take us through that kind of timeline and a few of the milestones along the way. 03:05 Right. So when I was gone as as a social worker now, when I was like eight years old, I had this weird kind of moment where so the teacher would always ask, what did you do this weekend? Oh, it's a civil match. What's your rugby match, kind of sat at home watching the telly. But I'd always say I went to this kind of dance convention, I went to this graffiti tunnel, I went to go see this musical or develop. So what ended up happening was the other kids would say Jenk, what are you doing this weekend? Because generally what you're doing sounds more formal. I'm doing like I'm with you. And so then their parents are emailing my mom saying what should I do this weekend because my kids even quite trusted and kind of wants to join. And then they ended up somehow my mom started writing almost like a weekly email of what to do this weekend. And that email went about as viral as it can do in a school mums, email and group. So then we thought this is quite a cool idea. This hasn't really been touched upon yet. So a few months later, I decided to show and tell at that same school to kind of talk about I called me and it was called iCoolKid at the time, the idea for that was just a website, a safe website, where kids at the time could get there in all their cool information, which at the time was just everything apart from major sports, celebrity gossip, and politics. So basically, whole information as we called it back then, then that was the show until after the show. And so we had about three years of guessing and knowing and a few years into like guessing and knowing once we decided, yes, we hired our first employee in May of 2016. Then may of 2017. We launched the website, I could get very different to how it wasn't the show and tell. But then we ran into an issue that the content was maturing as I matured, but the face of the brand and the name wasn't so what was happening is I was no longer a kid and ironically enough the name I cool kid or Word cool, wasn't that cool? So all we really had left was I, and that didn't work too well for us. So then we thought, okay, there has to be a change here because our content is kind of a Ferrari engine. And we're putting it into a fee of 500. Yeah, and we need to change the body of the website. So then we kind of develops and conceived Thred while iCoolKid was still live, late 2019. And then July of 2020, Thred launched. And that is a whole new website, same ish concepts. But all the news that we now talk about is 100%, social change related, it all has a thread of social change to use the name. And that was, yeah, that was one of 15. And I'm still 15. Today, I feel like to kind of further my point, I said before, I started thinking as a kind of company, when we hired the first employee, as you know, even before that, when we decided to make it a company that was when I started thinking as a company. I feel like if you're deciding to make it a company, and you yourself, don't think of it as a company yet, then you're that's just not gonna work out. So yeah. Podcast Host 06:04 Yeah, I think it's interesting that hiring of the first employee, though, firstly, what were you hiring for? And secondly, how did you pitch to that employee to come and join you on iCoolKid. Jenk Oz 06:16 So at the time, I was actually my guitar teacher who was looking for a his a part time guitar teachers looking for a job. And he's teaching me this all the time. And the what we pitch at the time, the job kind of description was an infrastructure developer. So just developing the website, and helping us develop ideas into a more concise way. And the way that we pitched it was this was basically what we had in our heads, because we pitched the idea to him. And as a group of us, me at the time, my mom and him, we would just kind of talk about it. And then we would can like kind of gather ideas and try and get them all down onto paper as quickly as possible to time and as most precise away as possible as time. And then the software didn't like we'd get rid of that piece of paper. And then we'd keep this off. We did like and then that is kind of how our storyboard started. And that's what we pitched him and that's who our first employee was. Podcast Host 07:08 What point do you think it really started to take off? Because obviously, like, you know, you turned Ico kid into thread, media thread, media started gaining traction quite quickly, was it mostly bringing people across from Ico kid into thread, or has thread been able to grow on its own? Jenk Oz 07:27 I think it really started to take off when we started to harness the different social medias, I think it's just it was I think I consider resigned to take off. Going from like, the first few days of Ico kid to like the first few months, and my cocaine was probably our most rapid kind of growth, purely based on the fact that I was I started to use my social media, my friends using social media. And then all of a sudden, we went from kind of hype, three daily viewers to like 3000 us on a within like a few days. So although we have more than 3000. Now, the percentage difference from three to 3000 is much more than other thing we could add, like we could even ever achieve at this point now, based on a given like a few days. So that was when it went from overseas like this is working. This is a thing now. And that was kind of my that kind of moment. Podcast Host 08:18 Yeah. So basically, when people started sharing it, and you started sharing across multiple social media platforms that being I'm guessing, Instagram and Facebook and now Instagram and Facebook, LinkedIn, Spotify, Snapchat, so what's your strategy there to kind of spread yourself across so many different platforms? Jenk Oz 08:34 Well, I think also website or as a brand, you have to be on as many social media platforms as you possibly can be purely based on the fact that your community is going to be everywhere. Now you want to entice community from everywhere. So the more kinds of seeds you can plant, the more community you'll have an extra bit of a no brainer. And also you're able to target different communities based on different platforms. I welcome my perspective. I kind of use different platforms for different things. I feel like people should treat their social medias very differently to how brands treat their social medias. I like to see my kind of social my social medias as two main things there's kind of like my business to face this kind of social media side and then my business to community effectively beat I know b2c is business to customer, but I can see it as business community. So business to business, I definitely use LinkedIn a lot more for that because I find that the best the most efficient way to be able to go from me to other like minded business people to be able to listen to them, and they're always super knowledgeable, and generally pretty trustworthy in the things that they're saying. Especially in kind of, I try and only follow people right find a super trustworthy, yep. But for b2c, I find that Twitter, Instagram and Facebook are really the classics there and you really cannot go wrong. And I feel like nowadays we'll be able to pull people with so easily. It's really just become like, unbelievably easy to be able to contact your community and ask them questions and kind of show them new things that also they think about things. Podcast Host 10:00 Yeah. So it's really allowed you to, I guess, refine your content and really refine that message of social change actually loved going onto your Instagram going to your link tree. And at the very top of the list on your link tree is social change, you know nothing about why go to our website or anything at the very top, it's social change, you've got a PDF in your Google Drive. And it's like how to be like a social change maker, and it gets really kind of interesting, informative tips on how students could do that kind of thing, particularly as Gen Z. Can you talk me through, I guess why social change? is such a part of what you believe would work for Gen Z? Jenk Oz 10:37 Oh, well, I think that to kind of both answer that question, you kind of have to define what social change is. And I feel like it's something that's not really done massively often for social change, and isn't a Google definition. So you've got to know it's true. Social Change is the change in social structure and cultural patterns throughout time. So what that means to our level, and what's happening right now, is we're seeing social change, these kind of changes in social structure and cultural patterns happen on a massive global scale, which is generally never normally the case. Because normally, social change kind of takes place on a country by country basis, which is generally why some countries on earth and others, generally is correlation between development and development of their social change pathway. And it's worth saying, there's so many different types of music movement, some people when they think social change, take all that's all about like climate change, and like helping, like global warming, clean water, plastic waste, equality versus equity, kind of human rights, animal rights, plant rights, kind of mental health, refugee age, gun control, abortion laws, like everything you could possibly think of that's considered socially good and needs to change will be under social change. Podcast Host 11:50 And you think like Gen Z is engaged with that topic? And what's your answer? People who kind of doubt the power of Gen Z? Jenk Oz 11:59 Well, I think towards your first question, I think generations that are really like very concentrated on social change is definitely a priority. I'm still quite funny statistic was funny, slightly concerning to refer 12% of generations that said that their priority was social change. And that's not concerning until you realize that the other priorities were things like love family and career, which kind of makes you Reaper perspective, and that's 4% higher than millennials and 8% higher than baby boomers the generation before. And that kind of trend is only going to rise, hopefully, as time passes. So yes, I do think generations Ed do play a massive role. I have that as a priority. Also, I think that generations, Ed can make absolutely massive differences. And there have been massive differences, especially in the US. I mean, that's really the epicenter of generations and social change in the US. And I find it, what I've done, there is unbelievable, and the kind of the combination of being very kind of opinionated, very loud group of people. And then the amplification of social media, which then amplifies their voices throughout the world means that one generations that are with an opinion and a share post can basically send a post across the world with within a few degrees of Instagrams. Podcast Host 13:12 Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things that I was talking to one of our strategists here Crimson guy recently, and he's like, tick tock has been such a fantastic thing for Gen Z to not just share dance videos, obviously. But share a lot of like social change issues and distill those social change issues with people might not know anything about it. And within a minute, you kind of know, the bare bones of it, what it is, you know, what's happening, what I can do to make a difference, and how I can help and Gen Z are all over it. And they really good, I guess, distilling serious issues in a small amount of time to make it accessible for a wider audience, is that what you're trying to package these serious issues in a way that is consumable by the masses? 13:52 Basically, we consider Thred to be a bit of like a gateway per se, to social change. So what I think a bit of an issue is Generation Z have is that people who are in social change, know social change and understand social change. People who aren't in social change, only see the tip of the iceberg of social change. So they The only people that people who aren't in social change, see all the kind of super protesters super the world's gonna end in 30 days super like ahhhh kind of people. And they think that it's either a one or a 10 it's black or white. But what people have to understand is that actually, there's a two to nine in between that and they just the people who you all see but they are invested in social change. And that's a kind of like the gray space in between. and we thread kind of see ourselves as the website where someone's into social change. Okay, come read thread, we're going to let you in, we're going to be accepting because we're going to show you kind of the tip of the iceberg of all the different kinds of areas of social change all the different topics or the different lifestyles or the different everything's and then whichever one you really enjoy you pick up on, then you can go deeper you can depart you can fly from the nest and go to a kind of a specialized web. I wish you a bit more kind of BAM in your face bit more dark, a bit more gloomy, a bit more apocalyptic. We kind of like to think of ourselves as the social change light. Podcast Host 15:08 People need that right, people need to find that first introduction to a pretty serious topic. And I always say for students, people get told to follow your passion all the time like is the biggest advice you can give to students is follow your passion. But it's I think you got to find what you're interested in first, what you're curious about first. And then like, after six months of reading and research and talking to people, it can start becoming a passion, but early stages, you've got thread media, you know, social change what I like that's a good concept. Give me a little of an insight into your life, though in like the week of a entrepreneur slash school students slash actor slash DJ slash doing all these different things. I know, there's probably a lot of glamour to that. And there's also a lot of unglamorous things to that as well, can you give us a little bit of like a bit from column a bit from column B, like some of the highlights of your week, and some of the lesser lights of your week? Jenk Oz 16:05 Well, I think I kind of have two weeks, I've got week a, which is my school week, or week B, which is not school week. And because I'm a boy school, so it becomes very easy to be able to differentiate was able to score weaker was not. So when I was school, this is kind of my my full priority, kind of I need to get through school, hopefully, with is going to grade as possible finish school. And when I'm at school, that what's on my mind, that's kind of, that's my school life, when I'm at home, then you kind of start to have the kind of different things taking over. Generally, I kind of do thread as much as I can during the day. So stuff like this calls with clients, just like stuff like that, generally, anything around the website, interviews, managing the team, talking to the team, that will be during the day. And then in the evening, or kind of towards the end of the day, I'll be doing things like kind of filming videos for the Instagram, for me videos for the team kind of plugging stories, as slowly that will merge into more DJing, practicing piano kind of doing my own thing chilling out watching way too many hours of Netflix, that kind of thing. It's a bit of a gradient between in the mornings, I'm kind of very thread based. And then I start to film videos a bit more fun. And I've started to DJ, and then I start to play music. And then I'll watch Netflix, and I go to sleep, and then I'll back up in the next day. Podcast Host 17:29 I think you need to have that Netflix time I think everybody does. I'd like to know a little bit more about your background in the arts in particular. And how do you see that as hoping what you do in thread, because obviously interviews and you know, going to create content and getting up on stage with TEDx. All these bits and pieces seem to require like the skill set that is often seen on stage as well, whether you be in theater in these kinds of things. So have you seen a link between the two? Jenk Oz 17:58 I massively massively do, I actually tribute quite a lot of my kind of don't want to say this, but like my public speaking successes, such I attribute massively to bit to kind of being in the performing sector. As a young child, I think the one thing it taught me was confidence, and the ability to be able to trust in what you're saying. And be able to know that if you stand up and speak to people, you're you're able to do that you're able to listen. And so the fact that I kind of added various acting roles as child and actually not only gave me confidence, it also gave me that kind of ability to learn the script and learn lines a bit better be able to know what I'm saying and understand why I'm saying instead of kind of just regurgitating lines, yeah, and I feel like that massively helped with the kind of public speaking aspect, but I do because, I mean, as you can imagine, if you're stepping up to on onto a TEDx stage, and it's the first time you've spoken to public spoken in public, as opposed to speaking up onto a TEDx stage, and you've done this on the other kind of acting roles in front of a camera, some in front of a live audience, then you're gonna feel much more confident, I'm also fit the best thing for my confidence. 100% was live theater, because in front of a camera, you can you can redo things, you can make it a bit perfect, but life later and you're doing the same thing every other day for a month, it kind of it really instills your confidence, just be able to like know what you're doing, and be able to trust in the fact that you know, we're doing and, and therefore not feel nervous about it. Podcast Host 19:26 It's great that you have taken that confidence into other areas. And I think that's a good note for any students listening who are in the arts, always look to other areas to see where you can take that confidence for you. What do you think has been the thing that's 10 next thread media? Is that a confidence and mindset side of things? Or is that a skill set and you know, pitching to clients and knowing what content works, those kinds of things? Jenk Oz 19:51 Are they the kind of thing that where you push your forward was the innate mindset that am I kind of precious everywhere I go, is the innate mindset to to know That you should never fear failure, but you should be terrified of regret. I mean, how many people thought of Amazon or Starbucks? I mean, you put sofas into a cafe, that's all Starbucks is. But I mean, the one person that did it, look where they are now, or Amazon or Facebook, even like the people who thought of those ideas, but never executed, and are kicking themselves. So that's kind of where that concept of Don't be afraid of failure, be terrified of regret comes from, that's kind of a thing that really pushed me to do it was because if down the road, there's something really golden here. And there's something like that is untapped here. And a lot of untapped potential, which I personally believe there is, then I want to be able to reach there and not see it happen 10 years from now and then regret it. Podcast Host 20:48 Yeah. So very much like a mindset side of things, right? Like, it's understanding that if you've got an idea, and you think it could work, and you've seen the kind of start of it working, then you should follow it up and exactly what you did, what makes you decide to follow one idea and not another because I'm sure like your 15 year around a lot of different entrepreneurs, you're hearing a lot of different things, having decided not to chase that and just to chase others? Jenk Oz 21:14 Well, I think this firstly is worth saying is that the the kind of cost it really is nowadays is not a massive thing generation said, firstly, based on the fact that most of us still live with our parents. And secondly, based on the fact that nowadays, with things like AWS, cloud computing, I mean, the cost of failure nowadays is a 10th of that than it was last decade, which I think is a massive, massive thing. I think it's also worth saying that this was one of the kind of the first ideas I had. And I generally haven't had that many ideas since. But my mind has been very focused on this. So I haven't really been brainstorming that often. I think one strategy, which I've heard someone do, and I really wish I could remember his name now, but I can't is he and his team will ideate and they'll come up with 20 ideas. The next day, they'll come back and they'll shoot down as many of those ideas as possible, they'll say, This is bad. Because this won't work. This is bad. Because this will work. This is bad. Because this won't work. The ones that just won't get shut down the ones that have nothing bad about them, they'll come out the next day, and then they will try and shoot those down again. And then by the end of it, you'll have one or two ideas which just have no faults whatsoever. And then they'll follow through with those ideas. And the interesting part behind that is that for every idea which issue down, they get a pay bonus, which I think is the kind of really interesting concept behind that. Podcast Host 22:30 I love that I think that's a brutal way of going through ideas. But also with that added bonus that you get paid for ideas that don't work. Jenk Oz 22:39 I've just remembered his name is Astro teller. And he works with Google. So yeah, Podcast Host 22:44 there you go. Alright, Astro teller. But yeah, I think that's a fantastic concept. What's next for thread media? like where do you see it going over the next couple of years, as you near towards, you know, college applications, etc. Jenk Oz 22:56 We got a few things kind of install glue, we've just launched our hustle section on our website. And that's got three sub sections. You've got entrepreneur, and now the career code section. And we're fortunate enough to have the absolutely awesome Mr. Dan cannon, who is our kind of a social change career coach. So if anyone wants to go ask him a question, they just pick up a question on the website. And then he gets to answer it. And he is clearly knowledgeable because he works at University of Oxford at the Sayyid Business School. So he kind of knows his things about sociants careers. So that's just launched. And we're very happy about that. The next week, we're expanding our media partnership with global citizen, which is for people listening who don't know is one of the kind of biggest social change giggle websites almost in the world. And we're going to be inserting their petitions and the actionable steps directly into our website so that you can kind of sign a global citizen petition as you're reading thread without ever leaving the website, which I think is quite a cool feature which we're introducing now. Just few days ago, we've trialed what I tested the different languages of the website. So I've seen it in Arabic, Indonesian, Chinese, Japanese, French, Turkish, Spanish, Italian, kind of all the classics. So that's quite exciting stuff that was quite cool to see the whole website in symbols, were launching thread media.com, which is the kind of official website for the consulting side. We've been doing it a lot behind the scenes, but we think we re definitely want to release the website. Now as soon as possible rolled that out. Although we already have kind of clients over time on a retainer, we're launching the disc or channel called social x change, which I think is quite small because it's like x change and like social x change alongside a group of kind of 20 hopefully, non government organisations. And for example, you'll be able to have a conversation directly with verbal citizen through our discord as resolution embassador is and kind of digital moderators on that. And then kind of on that point, we're also launching our kind of global Changemaker network and that will be our product. Full network of our ambassadors, our remote writers, our disk or moderators, and kind of all of our interns who actually start next week, I just realized what the data is our interns start next week. So yeah, that's very exciting stuff. Over the next few months, we kind of were hoping, and it's a bit of a more of a kind of phase two thread kind of bit of a longer goal. And we're hoping to be able to make the website responsive almost to your IP address or where you're coming to us from. And we're going to do that through a series of remote writers spread globally across the world, who formed the kind of ecosystem of writers for thread. And the idea is that you would go onto the web, you go off the website, from rural Malaysia, and you would see one story based on your kind of town, City area of Malaysia, you'd see one based on Malaysia, you'd see another story based on your continent, and then you see a few stories based on the world. And the idea is that we're gonna have enough global writers across the world to be able to fulfill that goal effectively anywhere you go in the world. And that's the big phase two, that's the next big thing that we're looking forward towards. Podcast Host 26:08 So there's a lot of different things going on. And some quite ambitious goals there. What are some of the like the the biggest threats to the future of threat? Is it you growing up? Is it you kind of getting older as it kind of happened with AI cool kid? Like, what are some of the other threats that you say to the future of the company? Jenk Oz 26:25 I've read, I don't know, I think that the biggest threat that we kind of face is, I don't know, I've just I've thought about this as as myself, but I don't know if I'm going to go back on the situation, depending on what happens. But kind of as I grow up, I'd rather become more behind the scenes and find a new Jenkins a new better improved smiley, bubbly, a better looking jangles to kind of chew to kind of replace me in front of the camera. And I feel like we're going to stay in our demographic, and the only threat that and this is a big threat. But the kind of one threat is that the next generation generation alpha has none of the same traits this generation said. So when they kind of come into this demographic, and they're like, ooh, what social change, then we thought we have an issue. But I'll we'll cross that bridge when we get that Fingers crossed generation alpha, or even more social change based on generations and teach them even more about social change a threat? Podcast Host 27:20 Yeah, well, if the trends continue, I think that that's exactly the case. I don't know how many students are out there. But hopefully, the future smiley Jenk Oz is listening right now, and is thinking how they can get involved. Who knows. So what would be some of your top tips for students if they want to kind of give a media company ago, Jenk Oz 27:41 I think I've kind of said my two, my two best top tips I could ever give to anyone who's aspiring would be my, don't be afraid of failure, be terrified of regret. And my if you treat a dream, like a dream today, it'll be a dream tomorrow. But you can treat a dream, like if you treat your idea like a company today or be a company tomorrow. And I feel like I'm just gonna reach reiterate those two things, because they're unbelievably important. And they're both such an easy thing to change. It is really is a switch, we have to turn and we'll help you massively to any students out there who are talking to you before, if you're looking to be a part if you're looking to build a social change kind of media website, but lots of experience a quick little plug towards thread, we're starting our internship, but thread, if you would, like I can send you my email and details. And then if you can like them for the show notes, I'll be awesome. Do email me, and that could be I hate to plug myself, but I feel like it's necessary as envoys of course. So if you kind of want to experience a social media company, based around generation said with generations and all around you that do Beth definitely consider thread for a remote internship. I'll be awesome. And yeah, that my two major pieces of advice and a quick blog. There you go. Podcast Host 28:50 Yeah, well, I guess it's that whole concept that I think a lot of the time students put mental barriers in front of themselves, because they are, you know, 14, 15 years old. And they're like, this doesn't sound something that like a 14, 15 year old should be doing like starting a media company. But there you go, right. Like, it must have been pretty interesting early on, when you were looking for support around this idea. Were there any kind of naysayers? Or was everybody on board? Jenk Oz 29:16 I think everyone was mostly on board. I think naturally, you kind of have one of the first kind of steps you have a 112 really kind of eight years old to have an idea for a website. Everyone's like, oh, okay, well done. Well done. You do that. But then they kind of kick off and you never really see those people again, you kind of think, Hmm, I wonder what they're thinking now. But yeah, you kind of have a few of those moments, but there's never ever really been anyone who's saying, No, don't do that as a bad idea. Which I mean, I guess is good, but I feel like if those people are knowledgeable, I know they're talking about and say that to you. I think it's always something to be able to consider going to take someone's advice if someone is in the field and says that's genuinely just a bad idea. But almost saying don't do it. But I'm saying it's something which all advisory reads, should we take into consideration? Because all advice is someone's opinion. So if someone's opinion is that, then you kind of do have to think, well, am I doing the right thing? Or am I going around the right way? And if that person is giving such a provoked kind of opinion, is that Riley promote science think about? Podcast Host 30:21 Yeah, actually, there was a student that I chatted with a couple of weeks ago, done some fantastic work in the social chain space as well. And Nathaniel, and he said, you know, be selective of who you take advice from, you know, everybody's got advice, but not every piece of advice is worth listening to. And it's kind of like understanding the people's background who's giving you advice and being like, it's probably not worth listening to at this point in my life. But you know... Jenk Oz 30:44 I definitely agree. I definitely agree with that both of them. There's some sort of merit and kind of being able to appreciate where someone's coming from. Podcast Host 30:51 Yeah, absolutely. No for sure. That's exactly right. And what's next for you personally? Like after school? What's your goals? Are you aiming for a particular University at all? Jenk Oz 31:01 and I've got an epic GCSE year headed my way with full teachers s grades, which I'm really hoping all my teachers like me, which I definitely cannot back. Yeah, GCSE, then move on to a levels, and then even vaguely about University. So here we go. Podcast Host 31:17 Yeah, you need to study in the UK or the US or somewhere else entirely. Jenk Oz 31:21 Hopefully, the US only because my mom's Canadian. And it's really a nice change of scenery kind of going. I've kind of done the really classic British incrementally going up in scores kind of as you grow up, like I've seen the whole I've seen the same group of people in school my whole life. So I thought it'd be a nice change of scenery, nice change of accent, you notice. Podcast Host 31:41 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's a, you know, if you can aim for those top universities as well, they've obviously got a lot of different things going on, and a great community to get around. Yeah, who knows where people might go, but hopefully, you can pave your path to those universities in the US. And Jenk, if people wanted to follow along with your story, personally, what would be the best way for them to do that, Jenk Oz 32:02 uh, on Instagram, the Thred Mag. So that's Thred Magazine, Instagram, Jenk Oz, which is just j e n, k, dot oz, O, Z, like the wizard. And the same applies for Facebook and Twitter, I believe. And then on the website, thread.com, everything we have mentioned is definitely a thread website. So that's very easy find, Podcast Host 32:30 and in some of the show notes as well, so people shouldn't stress. But yeah, Jenk, it's been awesome chatting. And I think for students out there who want to know a little bit more about social change, who want to learn a little bit more about what's going on around of the world in a way that is digestible for them is targeted towards their me is like, realize that being of like, you know, a young age can be an asset. 32:55 Yeah, I must, I must be agree a lot, you find that I get caught up quite a lot. So do you ever find that your age is really being a massive restriction for you, but to the surprise, actually end up saying the opposite because I found that it is there literally every day that someone creates something, it's not every day that the someone who creates something is also 12 years old. So that's actually massively helped me to kind of fast track my way straight into like, massive amounts of press stories, because everyone wants to write about the 12 year old creditor website, but no one really wants to write about the 53 year old white haired business very formal guy who created his 14th website do you know what I mean? Podcast Host 33:36 I know exactly what you mean. So yeah, no, it's great. And you got to ride that wave as long as you can. And you got to kind of make sure that you're, you know, telling media about it and spreading the word far and wide, which is awesome. That's exactly what I'm going to be doing with this episode. But Jenk has been fantastic to chat. And, yeah, look forward to hopefully getting a couple more people reading Thred as a result of listening to the podcast. Jenk Oz 33:59 Much appreciated. Thank you so much.

#8 College Tips - How to Effectively Research Your Future University with Oxford Grad, Evelyn Wu

🗓 MAR 24, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to college tips. On today's episode I chat with Crimson Education strategist Evelyn Wu. After completing her bachelor's and master's degree in mathematics at Oxford, Evelyn spent 10 years working at the British Council. Her experience is now helping Crimson students gain admission to top UK unions. We chat about what students should look forward to university, the rankings to take into account and how to set realistic goals. Let's chat with Evelyn Wu. Welcome to college tips. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Evelyn Wu 00:52 Sure. Hi, thank you for having me. My name is Evelyn. I'm currently working as a UK senior strategist here at crimson. So I graduated from Oxford was my master degree, both in bachelors and masters before joining crimson. So it's very happy to be here. Podcast Host 01:08 Right. So how did you go from studying maths at Oxford to joining Crimson as a strategist. Evelyn Wu 01:14 So after I graduated from my, for my degree, I really loved UK. So I was thinking, you know, what kind of job can steel, you know, helped me maintain this relationship. So I thought about British Council, which is was my first job before I joined Crimson as I was working for the British Council in Taiwan for roughly about 10 years before joining Crimson and now working as a senior UK strategist. Podcast Host 01:39 And so what does the strategists role involve for you? Like, what are some of the elements that you most commonly spend a fair bit of time on with students? Evelyn Wu 01:44 So we are helping students prioritize their program planning, whenever they join presenting their study journey, you know, there are different focus that they need to be prioritized at time, you know, for their application in the UK. So we help them identify their UK go and also prioritize their their planning, and we set the academic goals as well as the, you know, actual curriculum go. So then we can build them along the way and hopefully, and for the schools during the application years. Podcast Host 02:12 Yeah, I've been watching some of the acceptances as they've rolled in this year. And the students who've worked with you have done extremely well, I saw you had like a run of medical school admissions there for a little bit, what were some of the highlights for you in this admissions round. Evelyn Wu 02:27 Definitely for for medicine, medicine, in general is very competitive, especially for overseas candidates, we have had some great high achieving students from from crimson, they are all working very hard. And for medicine, you know, you definitely need to have a very solid academic profile on top of the, you know, meeting all the extra curricular requirements for those medical schools. So it's actually quite a lot to prepare, if you want to be a competitive candidate when you came medicine. So definitely, it was a very interesting journey. I've had students from this reason cycle and also the last cycle, who got into some of the great UK medical school. So definitely, yeah, very interesting journey. Podcast Host 03:10 Yeah, that's awesome. And you have decided to chat with us today about university research. What was it that made you choose university research? Evelyn Wu 03:18 Right, I think definitely, this is very important, isn't it? Because for our students, before they decide their university destination, definitely, there are a lot of factors that you can take into consideration. So how do you know which one would be a good fit for you? Obviously, for a majority of international students, I will say when when they come to score selections, they would firstly always look at ranking. So they want to be aiming for, you know, top universities, high ranking schools or a well reputation schools. So usually what we advise students is to look at ranking, but this is just one indication. So in terms of ranking, there is a university overall ranking, there's also a subject ranking. So definitely, I will advise my students to consider, you know, to look into both. So a university that is good ranking overall doesn't mean that particular subjects, they're also you know, very strong. So it's always good to look into different ranking tables. So for example, the very well known one, the key was ranking the times. And also there is a complete University Guide for subject ranking, specifically. So I think those are all very important. Podcast Host 04:28 Right? And then ranking, as you say, is just one small part of the bigger picture of university research. It's an area that I'm really interested in because through education and been in the industry for 10 or so years, and that kind of transition between high school and university. I know that there's a lot of students who go to university they think they're going to a great university based on ranking or based on course reputation or based on prestige for instance, and they get there and they not only like one semester in and they're like what By doing here, I didn't do enough research about like, what the cause actually involves what the university lifestyle was, like, you know, all these different factors. So, you know, we want to try and make sure students are doing the best research in that high school period. So they can actually go to a university that they really love and is really, as they say, you know, best fit University. What is an example, I guess, of bad university research, you know, a student who might just do it based on rankings? Or what are some of your examples of that? Evelyn Wu 05:32 Yes, absolutely. If you only, you know, choose your university based on ranking, I will say that's definitely not enough, you know, so ranking isn't all. So things like other things, like cost structure is also very important. So that's take Oxford and Cambridge, for example, if you're thinking, you know, I want to go for either Cambridge and Oxford, and they have pretty similar course. But then how do you make this decision? Because you can only go for one. So obviously, look into their cost structure is quite important. You know, every school they have their own cost structure design, do you want to be, you know, finding out a bit more, you know, what do they have in their course, in year one, you know, which modules are the core modules? And year two, and three, what are the selective modules that I get to choose, you know, whether or not I can see myself, you know, enjoying that course, I think that that's all very, very important. So in the UK, there's a very popular a lot of schools, they offer this course, called sandwich course. So not only just the subject study itself, they provide, for example, like three plus one. So apart from the degree program, that also gives you a year in industrial placement. So actually, you get to work with different companies. So to find out a bit more, and also develop your networks and expand your experience. So there's also other things like you get to do research in other European school countries. And also you get to have a placement in a different country like us, some schools, they will have links with, for example, MIT in the US. So there are many, many different cost structures and design definitely look into that as well. Podcast Host 07:07 I know a lot of students like to talk to alumni, or even current students at these universities for a bit of an insight into what life is like and what the workload might be like, etc. How reliable is the word of another student, you know, given that that student may have had different priorities going in, they may be a different person to you entirely, right? Like, if you don't know that person too well. And you're just kind of asking them because they're at that university? How can you take that on board and be like, their advice? And their experience is relevant to me, even though I don't really know them? Is that something that you advise students not to do? Or is that worth doing? Evelyn Wu 07:44 I think that's a really good question. So definitely, I always also suggest them to attend the virtual open days. Do you know right now, with a pandemic, we are not able to attend open days in person, but there are many, many virtual open days events. So definitely try to participate. Usually, this happens from June to September every year. So during the open days, what do you get, you actually get to, you know, have a tour around the schools, and they will, you know, introduce their department and you know, they will probably introduce you, the faculty, staff, the professors, and also the current students, so you actually get to talk to them and ask questions for anything that you would like to ask them, including the current student day. Podcast Host 08:23 Yeah, so and anything that's a valuable resource, other students who are currently studying at the University? Evelyn Wu 08:29 I think so to some extent, because you, when you attend open days, you actually are speaking to either the department lecturers or the, you know, the head of the department and some of the current students in the school. So you'll be able to find out the most latest updates to your questions. If you want to find out more about what kind of curriculums you know, extra curriculum or class that the school is able to offer, they will be able to tell you the most updated information and also what kind of support for international student I get to ask them a lot. So if say a student from Thailand, they want to know, what's the population of Thai students in that schools? Would I be able to get some international, you know, student support from that schools? I think the school definitely will be able to answer that. Podcast Host 09:12 Great. Yeah. So it is very important the open days talking to current students. I remember being at a Expo though, like a careers Expo here in Australia, and a dad came up to me and he said, Oh, you know, like, I'm very interested in having my daughter attend a UK University. I myself was a Cambridge man. I think my daughter's going to be an Oxford girl just ended up and I was thinking, Okay, how relevant might this be like a parent's advice because this parent bless him. I'm sure he's got great connections to Cambridge, but essentially, he probably attended the University like 20 plus years ago, potentially. So at what point does the advice and experience of alumni become less important? Evelyn Wu 09:55 I will say there will still be some value from the alumni experience of sharing But ultimately, you need to find out from yourself because only you would know whether that environment or that cause will be a good fit for you. And so research on things like, you know, what we mentioned open day, or maybe ranking will be important to some people. Obviously, programs like summer school program, you know, a lot of summer school program, they will, you know, organize actually within the college or university itself. So you get to actually experience a little bit of the culture of the school campers and even the commendations. What kind of resources does the school offer, you know, the vibe in the schools? So a lot of summer, summer school programs, they are able to provide that. Yeah. Podcast Host 10:38 Now, if you're working with a student, what kind of framework do you use to help a student narrow down their choices a little bit? Is it like, let's look at universities more broadly and think about what universities might suit us? And then go a little bit deeper? And then say, the particular courses at each university? Is that something that you do? Or do you do something completely different when you're working with each student? Depending on what they goes out? Evelyn Wu 11:02 Yeah, definitely. So for, first of all, we always find out which subject area they're interested in. And according to that subject areas, we will look at the ranking subject ranking together. So just to get an idea of what are the you know, for example, top 20, top 15 schools that are good at this subject? And then we can talk a bit more about, you know, from this top 20 schoolers, what do you think whether you have any idea of any schools on the list here that you're particularly interested in? How can we do a bit more research to find out, you know, some of these schools and look into their cost structure. So usually, we will ask, we will, you know, work together to narrow down, for example, top 10. And then we'll look at the cost structure together to see if this will be something that students is interested in. And obviously, we have to be realistic as well, we need to look at the entry requirement for schools. So depends on where students are currently at in terms of their academic performance. So we will set goals for our students, and then go for the realistic so retarget and safety schools for them? Podcast Host 12:03 Does career path or like employment connections to the university, does that play into the university research at all? Say, for instance, like, you know, the student wants to work for x company, and that particular company has a great relationship with a particular University is that something you know, students should have in their considerations as a high factor? Evelyn Wu 12:25 Totally, totally, I think, especially for programs that you know, will be able to provide some industrial links for their students, I think that's so valuable. So if the school happens to have any of the program with industrial experience, a lot of schools in London, they all have this, they have very strong links with the industry. So students can not only you know, they can gain some experience during their degree time. And after they graduate, most likely, they will be landing a job with those companies if they have been performing well. So I think that's definitely very valuable. So look into the graduate prospects in the job after that degree is quite important to Podcast Host 13:03 is looking at data a good thing for students to do and if so, what kind of data should they be looking at? If it's not just the school rankings? Should it be like the average graduate salary? And these kinds of things? I know, pretty popular as well? Evelyn Wu 13:16 Yeah, totally. So there are some websites, as you mentioned, definitely, for example, like prospect UK? If you ever wonder by doing this degree, what kind of career paths Can I go into? What kind of jobs or companies would I be, you know, having a chance to secure an offer from that company? So from websites like prospect UK, they have a lot of different details that we'll be able to provide to our students, by doing, for example, a mathematics degree, for example, what jobs can they be doing, but usually, I will also share with my students that, you know, a lot of my friends, they graduate from their degree, and they're not necessarily working, you know, on the the subjects that they study from there. So for instance, myself, I studied mathematics, but right now I'm working as a consultant. This has nothing to do with mathematics. So I actually do believe I firmly believe that higher education really is there to also, you know, to to gear ourselves with a lot of soft skills or diverse skill set that is really important for our life to be successful, not only just in Korea and also in our life. Podcast Host 14:18 Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of like some of the students that you've worked with, I'm always interested in the kind of case studies and I've heard a few of them at Crimson where there might be a student who's like, I want to go to the Ivy's or whatever it might be. And then after some research, and after some conversations, and it might even be like a three, six month kind of turnaround where that students mindset starts to change, then they start opening up their minds to other universities, other countries, even that they might apply to have you had an example of that where you've, you know, over the course of a few conversations a few months hope the students got to broaden their horizons a little bit because I'm going to guess you have a lot of students who come to you and the first thing they say is I want to go to Oxford, or I want to go to Cambridge. And then it's amazing. To reflect, okay, let's work that out a little bit and see what else is out there? Evelyn Wu 15:04 Yeah, totally. To be honest, a lot of my students, I will say, the majority of my students, they will come to me and say, Okay, we're only aiming for the high ranking schools, we don't consider any other school, they wouldn't require any safety Score Choice from the UK, they will much rather study perhaps locally, because they're just thinking, from the finance perspective, if they want to invest in education overseas, you know, including the living costs and all that you have to take into consideration. They wouldn't want to go for it. If it wasn't for high ranking schools. Obviously, we also have students that will be open to explore other countries as well. So like Canada, or even Singapore, so usually what we will share with them is, you know, the options they could potentially be considering. And then So apart from UK, if say, UK is your first preference, then what else do we need to prepare for other countries like Canada or even Singapore? So yeah, definitely, we have students who who has done that, but I would say majority, they already have a very good idea of what they want to go for usually happens to be hiring a school as I'm afraid. Podcast Host 16:07 Yeah, that's totally understandable. And I guess that's the kind of people who are, you know, working with you, as well as students aiming for those types of universities. But how do you have that conversation around cultural fit as well, you know, understanding that the student has looked at the rankings as looking at the data, they know that they want to go for that university, but might not be the best cultural fit is that kind of conversation and that kind of university research an important part of the process? Evelyn Wu 16:31 Yes, I believe so. So I will say, you know, not every school will be, you know, not, for example, not Cambridge, or Oxford, or no high parenting school, like Imperial LSE, there will be good fit for every students. Even if you are academically rigorous, you will be able to make the requirement, but you also want to, you know, think about, you're going to be spending three to four years of your life studying there for that degree, whether or not the Union University culture itself, or the environment itself will be a good fit for you. I think that's definitely very important to think about, especially if we're talking about medicine program, we're talking about five to six years, which is a long time. So you want to make sure that you want to definitely going to research and find out more about the school environment. What extracurriculars are, they're able to provide? What kind of, you know, teaching styles that the school is conducting, whether those would be a good fit for you or not? I will say for UK, they definitely will encourage independent learning. So a lot of times, they will definitely will not be, for example, like spoon feeding students or, or chasing you to do revision for exams, definitely, that will not happen. So you need to find out a bit more about in what the school is able to offer before deciding. So not simply based on ranking, Podcast Host 17:48 do you recommend looking into who the professor's likely are going to be I know you said, you know, at the open day, you'll get a chance to speak to the professor heads etc. But like, you know, in any given University, the staff might turn over and the professor that you thought you were going to get after one semester or so they've left and you know, they've got a new person coming in. So how much weighting should students put on a particular professor at a university knowing that that may change? Evelyn Wu 18:17 Obviously, I always ask students to also check out the professor's background. Because these are the people who will be teaching you. So you want to know like what kind of area of specialties they have, for example, if I want to study law, and I'm particularly interested in family law, whether or not my professors there are in this area of background, so whether or not they will be able to you know, give me a lot of focus on this particular area that I'm interested in. I think that's also quite important. And especially when it comes to college selections, you definitely want to be finding out a bit more about the tutors background. So in terms of the turnover, right, this is definitely not something that we can control. We say you really admire any particular professor, and we go there, they happens to, you know, maybe move on and change jobs. So they're no longer there. There's nothing we can do. But definitely, I would say, when you apply finding out the tutors, background professors background is definitely one of the indicators as well. So you want to make sure they have the right background to teach what you want to be studying. Podcast Host 19:20 Yeah. And do you also take into account what is the future of the university, say for instance, like they're always building the new big fancy lebara tree or the new big fancy computer science lab, whatever it might be, right? And you know, if you've got a 16 year old who says, Oh, I really want to attend x University, but you know, you've heard something where like a rival University is building this new state of the art lab type of thing, and it will be just finished by the time the student goes into that course. Is that something that you're saying, hey, look, you need to look at what else is coming up in the next year or two because this university is going to go up in the rankings because they're building this particular development or whatever it might be Evelyn Wu 19:58 totally awesome. Especially for like STEM subjects. For example, every year government, they will give a lot of fundings to, you know, top stem schools. And so, you know, using those fundings, you may see some of the news that this particular school, they're going to link with this particular company, they're going to build this, you know, virtual lab or something like really grand. So definitely take that into consideration. Yeah. Podcast Host 20:22 Yeah, there's so many bits and pieces. But one thing that I'm quite interested in is the Course Guide, because that is an intimidating piece of reading material. Because as a student, you might think you know, what you want to do. But then when you're going through a Course Guide, and it has like, hundreds of options, and you're like, Oh, my gosh, I thought I wanted to do this. But then this sounds interesting. And this sounds interesting. And can I combine these two things and all these, you know, different things that you start doubting exactly what your pathway should be? What advice would you give to students in that part of the process, when they're looking through the actual course guide? And trying to decide, am I going to study history, or anthropology or ancient history or this kind of, you know, there's all these different branches of particular subjects? So at what point do you kind of say to the student, this is your path? This is what you should put on your application? Evelyn Wu 21:11 Yeah, another great question. I think for UK, before you apply, this is something quite different from the US, you definitely need to decide on the course on the program itself. So you already know which subject and which program you want to apply. And obviously, for UK, usually, in year one, everything is more is more generic, more fundamental concepts. So is the broader education, you know, core subjects that you need to study. But the fun part starts in year two, and three, where you are given more, you know, selective modules. So you if you are, say, under mathematics, you're very interested to be more specialized in computation, you know, computing departments. So something to do with computing. So you want to check out whether from year two and three, that school has the offerings for, you know, more computing modules, or even, you know, different programming or different projects that they're able to offer. So I think that's quite important. Podcast Host 22:05 Yeah, well, I've seen one of the Course Guides in the US and was Yale's Course Guide. It's like 2000 different courses. And you're like, how do you even choose from that, you know, like, it's, it's a crazy challenge for students to pick what they want to do. And I know like the US is kind of more flexible, but the UK like you need to know what you want to do. And it's good that you can have that advice for students to help them I guess, decide what they want to do in that early stage. wintered students start university research isn't something they can leave until, like, you know, the last three months before they submit their application, or should they started a lot earlier, Evelyn Wu 22:39 I will say the subject, definitely the earlier, you're able to determine which subject when I study, the better. So you can start your foot, you know, all the preparations focus on that subject related, or activities, or any competitions that you're interested in. I think that's quite important for UK. But regarding the score selections, you don't have to, you know, this side on the list onto I will say, three months or a few months before the application, that's totally fine. Podcast Host 23:07 And that's like the real crunch time where it's about putting that list together and committing to that list? Evelyn Wu 23:12 Yes, totally. And also, I have to say another aspect will be to take into consideration the predicted grades, you will be able to, you know, achieve during the application year. So at some point, we want to be realistic as well. So by having a preliminary school list, then we look at what our predicted grades that we are getting in that year. So we can revise that school list again, whether these this list is, you know, consider realistic art. Podcast Host 23:38 I feel like you've had that conversation a couple times with parents and students. Evelyn Wu 23:42 Yeah, all the time. Podcast Host 23:44 Yeah. And when you see a school list that perhaps isn't realistic, how do you go about having that conversation with the parent and student to say, hey, look, this is what our goals probably should be. And that is no less kind of achievement at the end of the day in terms of like getting into these universities, when like, they might have Oxford or Cambridge at the top, etc. But you're saying, oh, let's go for, you know, maybe like a Warwick or St. Andrews or, you know, these kind of universities that are still very solid? How do you try and like, convince families that you're kind of second tier universities are still good choices? Where job? Evelyn Wu 24:18 Great question. So I think UK is very different from us. We can't apply for like 10 different schools for UK, we can only go for five, maximum five. So obviously from those five, we want to make sure that we have carefully, you know, chosen our schools, so we all stand a good chance in terms of our five applying schools. So being realistic is quite important. So when when the time that we receive our predicted grades, first of all, we will check through whether we make the entry requirements or not. So it's very likely if we still you know, want to go for the school that we're not meeting the entry requirement, it's quite likely they will reject you from the first round unfortunately. So you We will try to explain that to the parents that you know why we need to be realistic. And obviously they are rich target and safety. So for reach, as long as we meet the entry requirements in terms of the competitiveness, nature of the program, we can definitely still give it a try. But we will explain to the parents because of the competitiveness, whether or not this program will be considered a reach school for the students or a target school. So, a good combination of reach target safety, usually, that's what we think would be a good you know, idea to move forward. Podcast Host 25:34 Just for the benefit of our listeners who may not have heard that terminology before reach target safety, can you just define what you see as a reach school, a target school and a safety school? Evelyn Wu 25:46 Totally. Um, so for students, for example, if you are aiming for top schools like Oxbridge LSE Imperial, some of the very competitive programs, even if you meet the entry requirement, there are still some uncertainty factors, for example, the return on entry exam, so we wouldn't know how well we'll be performing for the written entry exam. So due to those or interviews due to those uncertainty factors, so we would normally categorize those schools as rich school for the target school, usually this is, you know, where we are definitely, you know, at that level, so it should be a pretty, you know, easy, you know, straightforward schools for us to, Podcast Host 26:29 you know, target and the safety scores, they are the ones that just in case, if things don't go well, as we plan, at least we will have a safety score that require slightly lower requirement. So it should be a good safety choice for us. And if a student was to go away from this podcast episode right now and start doing university research, what two or three steps would you recommend that they take right now to kind of start on their journey to figuring out what they want to do after high school or where they want to go after high school. Evelyn Wu 27:03 So start thinking about which subject you want to study, because for UK, you do need to, you know, First, identify a subject area, and then based on that subject, do a bit of research on what are the options that we have, it can be from the ranking are. So if you want to go for only high ranking schools, or if you want to particularly be looking at those sandwich program, so a program that will be able to provide you with some industrial experience or a research opportunities, and then look into those particular programs. And then things like location cities are also important living costs, these are all quite important. And then finally attend the virtual open days to find out a bit more about what the school or the course is able to offer you. Podcast Host 27:51 Yeah, fantastic. Well, even it's been awesome chatting. And thank you so much for your time today and college tips for students who would love the opportunity to work with someone like Evelyn on their application to the UK, US, Europe, Canada, and anywhere else that Crimson hopes students get into. There will be a link in the show notes for a free one hour consultation with a lovely academic advisor. But everyone, thank you so much again for your time for your wisdom, and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. 28:17 Thank you so much for having me. Podcast Host 28:18 Thanks for listening to top of the class. Subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#39 How a TED Talk Unlocked Anagha's Potential

🗓 MAR 20, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cole. And in today's episode, I chat with STEM advocate, feminist and founder, Anagha Rajesh. We chat about a TED talk that helped unlock an obvious potential been involved in a program with the UN, the significance of Women's History Month, and how she aims to bring mental health awareness to students around the globe. Let's chat with Anagha Rajesh. Hi, Anagha, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Anagha 00:48 Hello, first of all, thank you so much for having me on board. It's such an honor to be featured here. So my name is Anagha Rajesh. I am a student of Integrated Science at the Birla Institute of Technology in India. I am also the co founder and CEO of mine chance, which is a youth led organization for mental health awareness. I am super passionate about reading public speaking. And I'm currently interning with a California based AI startup called Mark Tech post as a content intern. In addition, I am pursuing an introductory course in quantum computing. And yeah, that's about me. Podcast Host 01:30 Wow. Okay, so a lot to talk about. But one of the other things that I know about you is that you're involved in the UN in some way. Can you tell us a bit about that? Anagha 01:38 Yes, definitely. I am an advocate for the girls in science platform, which comes under the umbrella of the United Nations. And so this is an initiative that is aimed at making science more accessible to girls across the world. So we are a group of around 50 girls from across the globe. And we get into advocacy programs. And we are mentored by Her Royal Highness Prince is chemistry. Yeah, we get we recently launched a Braille in science campaign to make science more accessible to a visually challenged people. And we're working on several other projects as well. Podcast Host 02:20 Yeah, so a lot going on. And it's a fantastic group to be a part of, did you get nominated for that? Or did you apply for it? Like, how did you come across an opportunity like that? Anagha 02:30 Okay, so I was a part of a mentorship program called 1000 girls 1000 futures program of the New York Academy of Science. And while I was at this program, or one of my friends in this program, told me that she was a part of the girl science platform. And she asked me if I would like to join in. And that was back in 2019. And during that time, the platform was just starting. And we were just in the initial stages. So the application process mainly comprises of, you've got to write a sort of introductory statement or a personal statement, talking about why you want to be a part of the program. And the second part is to get one of your science teachers to nominate you for it. Podcast Host 03:14 Right. And it's been a fantastic thing to include in your resume and include as part of your profile, and to really give yourself the platform alongside the UN must be fantastic, but you are part of a lot of different things. Can I ask what is your general approach to new opportunities? Like how do you decide which things to pursue, and which things not to pursue? Anagha 03:38 So I will start by giving you a small background about myself, and how I discovered that I'm someone who can do a lot of things at once. Sure. So I was in school, and I studied in an Indian School in the UAE. So in the Indian education system, generally, the focus is on being focused on one thing, so you've got to either focus on academics, if you're good at sports, focus on sports, if you're good at arts, focus on arts, and so on. So the priority is focusing on one thing and doing it you know, giving it your best. Yeah, when I came into high school, I really didn't want to give up a lot of activities that I was doing as a middle schooler. But I was expected to do that because the perception was that to be good at academics, you've got to do all of your extracurriculars. And I was in a very confused and scared state of mind, because I didn't want to leave anything. And I also wanted to be good at academics. And I thought there was something wrong with me because I wanted to do a lot of things. That was when I came across a TED talk by Emily watersnake. And she spoke about this personality trait called multi potential lights. So I discovered that I'm a multi potential light, which means that I am someone who can survive only if I'm putting my hand into multiple things at once. So that's what motivated me to keep going and keep taking up opportunities along the way, and not limiting myself to just academics, or just one activity Podcast Host 05:06 with the TED Talk, that kind of mindset thing, right? where you're like, oh, okay, I'm a multi potential life in kind of understanding how you might fit or how you might label your multiple interests. Did that help to expand your reach further? Did that kind of free you from judging how many interests you had? Because I think a lot of students would say, gosh, you know, I shouldn't be doing so many things. Like I should just be focusing on school and getting good school. But once you kind of saw that Ted Talk, it gave you that freedom to go and chase as many different things as you wanted. Because you realize that that's the personality that you have. Anagha 05:43 Yes, absolutely. There are a lot of students out there who are scared of taking up multiple things, because they're scared it will affect their performance in something else. Yes. So yeah, this step Doc, and also subsequently went on to join this multi potential ad community, I subscribe to the newsletter and all of that, and that keeps me going, it still keeps me pretty motivated. Podcast Host 06:05 I'm still interested in how you kind of place value on on an opportunity and how you decide which ones to follow, and which ones not to. Anagha 06:12 Okay, so one thing that I look for in an opportunity is that it gives me a dimension to improve myself. So I'm currently a part of I'm interning with Mark tech post writing articles about AI. I've never written a single article about AI until I started off with this internship. So the reason I picked this up is because it gave me an opportunity to widen my horizons and learn about AI, which is an emerging technology. So I always look out for an opportunity, which is capable of helping me grow as a person. In addition, I also look out for the working environment. So have we got a very stringent working environment that you cannot sort of, you know, be flexible with your work schedules, I don't do such opportunities. Because I believe that flexibility is one of the most important parts of MVNO, multi potential items, being able to do a lot of things. I also look at the sort of individuals who are involved, and how passionate they are about it, you know, the intent of them doing it. So if somebody is doing a project just for the sake of being portrayed as a social service person on media, that doesn't really interest me, if someone is doing it with a good intention, I think that's really important that I always make sure I try and find out how passionate they are about what they are doing before I joined them. Podcast Host 07:33 I love it. That's a good way of saying if you are a good fit for them as well, right? Because if they're genuinely passionate, then it kind of motivates you to be more part of that organization. But I'd love to know more about how you got the internship. So can you take us through how you came across it and what you had to do to get that internship? Anagha 07:53 Okay, does internship was actually offered to me as a part of a competition that I won. It was an article writing competition. And I was a first prize winner. So as a part of my prize, I was offered an internship. But in general, like considering all the other opportunities that I've come across, I believe that having a strong LinkedIn profile is one of the key elements to land a good internship, because I've landed a couple of wonderful opportunities through LinkedIn. And I think it's important to build your profile. And in addition, or when you build your profile, make sure that you connect not just to your friends in high school, but to people across the world and be open to connections and be open to networks. And, you know, I think that perhaps you land a lot of opportunities. Podcast Host 08:42 What do you think some of the elements of a strong profile are, Anagha 08:46 I think the most important part of a strong profile is to be authentic. So everything that you mentioned on your profile has got to be obviously it has got to be correct. But also, it shouldn't be something that just highlights all of your achievements. Of course, you've got to highlight your achievements. But a lot of high schoolers tend to focus on wanting to just highlight the prizes that they have won. But that doesn't add a lot of value when it comes to opportunities. What adds value is your experience and your journey. So if you say that I have done x y Zed internship, don't just say what you did during the internship, but also say what you learnt in the process and how that internship changed you as a person. Maybe you also talk about the challenges that you face as an intern and how you overcame them. I think these are the things that a lot of people are looking out for when they want to get you on their team. So they want people who are honest about their experiences. And they also want people who can work well within a team and most importantly, have a human connection. So when you talk about the challenges you faced, there is an instant human Connect. Podcast Host 09:57 Yeah, I definitely agree that the LinkedIn files that just have a whole lot of different competitions, I've won, etc, etc. Like, if I've never heard of those competitions, I'm like, Okay, I'm assuming that's impressive, but I don't really know much about it, I don't really get much of a sense of the person, if all I'm saying is the competitions they've won, but if they write in their about section, who they are, what they've learned what they're wanting to do next, or in their posts, you know, they post regularly. And you can see some kind of depth of thought they're a little bit of that kind of genuine personality coming through in their posts, that they're not trying to be this professional that they think LinkedIn wants to say, but they really just being themselves. I think that's super important. And I think, you know, high school is definitely getting on the platform a lot more and contributing in a lot of different ways, which is awesome to say. I'd love to talk about mind champs, though, because that's an organization that I think super important, obviously addressing mental health. Can you talk to us about why you started that organization, and how it's progressed from starting to where it is today. Anagha 11:02 Mind champs is a youth led organization that focuses on making conversations about mental health more inclusive, and making these services more accessible. This started off in 2019, when I was a part of again, the mentorship program that I mentioned earlier, 1000 1000 features program. And during one of our conversations on this platform with other girls, we were talking about mental health, and I sort of spoke about how mental health is such a taboo in the community that I come from. And surprisingly, everyone came up and said the same thing. And we realize that mental health is a taboo beyond geographical borders. So it's a taboo in almost all societies across the world. As someone who's seen close friends suffering from breakdowns, who has seen my uncle suffering from schizophrenia, and not being able to access treatment, because it's considered a taboo. I've sort of seen it firsthand. And I've also heard about experiences from others. And so we decided to get on board and start off an organization. Of course, it wasn't easy, because none of us had any experience starting an organization from scratch, we've had to work through a lot of things. So initially, we started off as a project to do an E magazine on mental health. That was our first focus. We weren't even an organization in the starting, we were just a group, of course, working on E magazine, and mental health. And when we launched our first e magazine, The response was amazing. And so we decided to stick on to it and keep going. And it is in 2020, actually, towards the latter half of 2020, that we actually became much more established and started taking in more people other than the initial set of founding members, we started opening up applications and getting members on board. We've been growing our social media outreach, we are doing our own podcast series, we're doing a training program for students to create content about mental health. We are launching student competitions, and we're doing blogging. So we're doing a lot of different activities. And our main focus is not just to D stigmatize mental health, but also to empower youngsters with the skills that they would need to help achieve this mission. Podcast Host 13:26 Yeah, I love that you started out as like an a magazine. And then grew it from there, like the magazine, I guess, was the testing platform for the interest in this mind champs and what you were doing. And then once you realize that there was a lot of interest, that's when you said, Okay, what else can we do to support students in the very difficult time of high school and and the mental health challenges that students encounter along the way? In terms of the different elements that you've continued to add on? Has there been anything that's particularly more successful or less successful? Like? Is the podcast going really well? Or is the blog going really well? Or do they all kind of complement each other? Anagha 14:10 I think when you talk about going well, I think that's a very subjective thing. Because what I think is going well might not be what somebody else thinks is going well. But I think as a whole, all of these activities are pretty much complimentary to each other. And a very, very exciting opportunity that I want to talk about is a contest that we launched very recently. It's called, it's all in the mind speech challenge. So it's a speech challenge that is open to students aged nine to 18 across the world, and we're looking out for speech videos, which are just 60 to 90 seconds in length, but it's explaining our mental health concept in as creative a manner as possible. So that's an exciting thing that we have launched very recently. And all we are hoping to reach out to more students. And to get a lot of participation. Podcast Host 15:03 That's great. I actually saw you post about that on LinkedIn. And I was going to ask you to bring that up. So I'm glad you've done that already, which is awesome. But is there any kind of end goal for the organization now? Or is it just increasing awareness about mental health? Helping students be more prepared about mental health? Like, is there any guiding principle that you have for the organization that you can kind of make all your focus and all your work and build around that one principle? Or is it like that general awareness and general preparedness that students have in mental health? Anagha 15:34 Actually, I personally don't believe in end goals, because I think excellence is a journey and not a destination. But when you talk about mind champs, it started off with a focus on awareness. But now we're slowly shifting away from that, and we're trying to get more realistic. Because I mean, awareness is not the only thing that you need about mental health, you need to equip youngsters with the sort of resources that can help them become more, you know, accepting of mental health conditions when they face them, or when their friends or loved ones face them. Or what we're trying to do at present is to reach out to students and youngsters in the remotest parts of the world, and to take mental health to them. I really can't point out a particular project because they're still in the pipeline, we're still working and figuring things out. But our focus is currently on taking mental health from just the students in our circle, and to take them to say, religious in rural India, or certain economically backward sections in say, Africa or South America. That's the sort of thing that we're working on at the moment. And yeah, we really hope to, you know, come up with something exciting. Podcast Host 16:50 Yeah, that is exciting. Even just like the thought of that is exciting, which is, which is very, very cool. But based on your experience, what would you say are some of the fundamental lessons that you've learned that other students could potentially learn from your experience? So setting up student organizations is a very popular thing to do. But looking back on the growth and development of mind champs, are there any kind of advice or tips that you would give for students who are interested in starting their own organization in whatever topic or interest area that they may have? Anagha 17:23 Oh, one fundamental thing that I've learned in the process is that there's no right time to do anything. If you want to do something, just do it, because things will fall into place as you go along. Because when mind Sam started, it was a pretty small space. And none of us knew how to actually work on it, none of us had the experience. But we still tried out different strategies with we tried out various aspects of the program. Of course, there were a lot of things that failed. So the point is that if you want to do something, to go out and do it, and as you go along, you will automatically learn. And you will also gain access to resources as you go along. When you For instance, if I'm talking to someone, and I say that I'm a part of mind champs, maybe they have something exciting to offer me, because their networks are different from mine. So the focus is on just starting off, even if you have no idea about what that is just start off and let the process teach you. I think another important aspect of maybe starting an organization or are doing something of your own is to be as authentic as possible. Let yourself make mistakes, let your team make mistakes. And don't judge yourself based on that. But keep going. And then good communication skills are operating important aspect of it as well. Again, it's something you learn along the way, but it's something I think you need to put some cautious effort into being able to do because when you lead cross cultural teams like mine champs, so my chapters members from across the world, so the way you communicate, it should be respectful of cultural aspects and their cultural identities. And you should also be mindful of time zones. So when you communicate across cultures and across geographical boundaries again, so your communication skills are really, really important, and you need to be really empathetic towards people. So yeah, that's what I think. Podcast Host 19:20 I think that's very good points and letting the process teach you rather than feeling that you need to know everything before you start the process, which I think a lot of students try and do. And I guess that's the paralysis by analysis, I think is what they tend to call that side of things. But I'm interested in how you have brought up authenticity again, and there was a post on LinkedIn by a high school student that's gone somewhat viral, and it was opposed by a guy named Stephanie Sue. And Anagha 19:50 that I remember reading it and you know, resonating a lot with it. Podcast Host 19:53 Right, right. And it basically goes on the lines of, you know, she sometimes sees high school students on LinkedIn. They have like these amazing profiles. And like it can be a little bit daunting and intimidating seeing these amazing profiles and can make you not feel like you're doing much or not doing enough and these kinds of things, yet, I find that a lot of the time LinkedIn or any kind of social media platform, really, it's sometimes difficult to stay authentic on that platform, when there is I guess, that social pressure to hype up yourself, right? Like you're trying to put your best foot forward, you're trying to make any experience sound impressive. And you really want to try and make sure that you are giving people a view that you're amazing, right? So how does that kind of fit with the authenticity side of things? Like how can you make yourself sound authentic? and amazing, at the same time without them necessarily clashing? Anagha 20:51 Okay, that's, that's a tough question to answer. But I'll try and take a go at it. Yeah, I think one thing that I believe is that every one of us is amazing, in a different sort of way. So the problem is with the fact that we've sort of categorized amazing into a closed box and just let it stay there and, you know, show everyone that this is the sort of amazing thing that you need to do. So you've sort of set a template for being amazing, which I think really needs to change. And I think the change comes from within you. So I, I totally agree with the fact that a lot of student profiles on LinkedIn, especially if students who are younger than you, and who are achieving more than you, sort of makes you tense at times. But I think the key is to sort of let your authenticity shine again, you need to get rid of the notion that being authentic cannot be amazing. So there are certain aspects of every single person's personality, that is amazing. And you need to put that out there. So don't let others notions of amazing personalities or amazing achievements, sort of, you know, take away your enthusiasm, show what you're enthusiastic about, and write about what you're enthusiastic about, share your ideas. And I mean, even if other people have got better ideas, it's absolutely fine. And a podcast by Mark Randolph, who was one of the founding members of Netflix, he keeps talking about how most ideas that people come up with are always bad, and good ideas are actually not a fixed thing. So you know, good, certain ideas can be good, at certain points in time. So the fact is to believe in yourself, even when times are challenging, and to let the amazing aspects of you shine out and people will gradually recognize it. Podcast Host 22:49 Well, I think you've done a really good job in answering a tough question. It's always interesting to kind of think about, you know, that pointy end of high school achievement, right, and how competitive it is. But you're right, everyone's amazing in their own way. And I think if people are just authentic and writing about what they're passionate about, it will it will shine through and don't try and blow everybody away with your profile. But it's there's some people who would just not get what you're doing or not understand what you're interested in. But there will definitely be people out there who do appreciate and do see your talent for what it genuinely is, which is Anagha 23:21 awesome. Absolutely. Another thing I'd like to add on is, I mean, when you are authentic, you will automatically be connected to opportunities that genuinely interest you. So if you're going to build a profile based on somebody else's template, you will only get opportunities that somebody else gets, which might not be what interests you. So all the more reason to be authentic. Podcast Host 23:42 Yeah, absolutely. Now, it's also an interesting time to be chatting with you. Because, you know, obviously, it's Women's History Month in the US and it was International Women's Day, not long ago as well. On March 8, you yourself are part of the young women in STEM ambassador program with the UN. What does Women's History Month or International Women's Day? What is this whole month mean to you? Anagha 24:08 I believe that every day should be women's day, every day should be everyone's day, actually. But then it's really, really important that when you have a Women's History Month, you have the Women's Day, it's time to look back at the challenges that women have overcome across generations. And I think in the recent years, things have become more open for women. At least when I stepped into university for the first time this year. I was shocked to realize that out of 900 freshmen students, only 60 are women. So this was a shocking revelation because until then, I've grown up in UAE and I studied in our own English High School Sharjah, which is a gold school and all our faculty, all our senior leaders Strip members, everyone is a woman, I've never really felt the real gap. In, you know, women's representation. I used to say my entire school is made up of girls and we're still running really well. So I never really understood what under representation of women in STEM means until I stepped into university in November last year. So as someone who has just recently realized how Stark the underrepresentation is, this month is really, really important to me to highlight the achievements of women, and also to talk about how women can support each other, to go forward in their careers to achieve their dreams, and not to set a template for successful women again, so what does success mean to you as a woman is different for different people. And it's also about appreciating the wonderful women in your life for me, it's my mom, the lovely teachers and my principal at our own Sharjah, my lovely friends, who keep supporting each other and keep growing and the lovely team at mind champs which is mostly girls. So it's, it's about recognizing a lot of things. And it's also about getting allies, getting men and other members of the community to accept the fact that that is under representation and to become staunch allies of women in this fight. Podcast Host 26:20 I was going to ask what can people do to continue to support women and I guess, being an ally is an important thing. But for you at like that high school university level, what does it mean for men to be an ally of women to help them continue to push forward and to, you know, as you say, like, break that crazy difference in 900 men you said and 60 girls or class of 990 60 girls, like that's crazy. Anagha 26:50 Yeah, class of 960 girls, which is pretty shocking. So tell me what allies, I think one thing that men could possibly do is to sort of get away from this general trend of micro aggression. So micro aggression is when you are making, you know, sexist jokes, or sort of mansplaining things all the time. You know, it, a lot of men do it very subconsciously, because it's a part of, you know, their entertainment process. So I think that should stop. And as allies, that is one thing that men could do to stand up to other men and call them out for making a sexist or a racist remark, and get them to sort of apologize and to understand their mistake. I think at a fundamental individual level, this is something that everyone can do to really make women feel like they are a part of the organization, not the institution, not a group, or whatever you're talking about. Podcast Host 27:51 Yeah, and I think, you know, getting involved in organizations like 1000, girls, 1000, futures, and the UN organization as well, fantastic opportunities for young women to add their voice, not just as a single person, but add their voice to an organization and to like a global organization at that. So hopefully, you know, there's some girls there who are inspired by your story. And what's next for you, future wise, you're very busy, your first year university, can you talk us through, I guess that experience what that has taught you so far? And has that kind of reaffirmed what you want to do in the future? Anagha 28:32 Okay, so again, as a multipotentialite, I have too many ideas in my bucket list. And so definitely, I'm still working on figuring out a real future plan. But on a certain extent, I'm really, really excited to be working on the intersection of STEM and public policy. And I'm looking at again, a lot of times what happens is, you are putting people into silos, you're saying, Okay, I'm a science person, I'm going to do science, or I'm a humanities person, I'm going to do public policy, I really want to bridge that gap as well. And to sort of work at the intersection of science and public policy. And again, I want to take along with me my identities of being a mental health advocate of being a feminist, of being someone who's passionate about public speaking about writing. So I'm going to take all my passions forward and sort of carve out a niche for myself at the intersection of science and public policy. Podcast Host 29:34 Yeah, that sounds like a very, very good fit for you. And I'm sure that you'll continue to do that. Now. If students wanted to follow along with your journey. There's so many different things going on with you. There's the mind champs competition, which we'll put a link to in the show notes. And, you know, obviously, there's a lot of different other things that you're doing with the AI internship and the content you're writing there, but what are some of the main ways that students could get in contact with you have course there's LinkedIn. And we can put that in the show notes as well. But is there any any other way that students can come across your story and your content? Anagha 30:07 It would be great if you could, I mean, if you wanted to reach out to me personally, then definitely my email, or my Instagram profile, which is where I usually share all the fun aspects of my life and my views. So yeah, following me on instagram would be great as well. Podcast Host 30:26 I can put those in the show notes, too. So people can come across your story. But before you go, I'm interested in two more questions. Number one is, you know, final advice. But number two, can you tell us a little bit about failures that you're most proud of? I mean, in saying that post that we were talking about on LinkedIn, I think in terms of mental health as well, we need to get better at students celebrating the failures as well, and seeing them as a positive rather than a negative. So are there anything in your life that you can reflect on and say, hey, yeah, that didn't work out. But I'm really glad I gave it a go. Anagha 31:01 I would say that one of the first times that I went up on stage to speak, I was really excited about it, and I go up on stage, and then I'm blanked out, because I cannot say anything. I mean, there's no, they're not what's coming into my mind. And I'm, I'm just frozen on stage. And that too, like in front of a pretty large audience, which is, which can get really, really scary. So that was one very, very defining moment in my life, because that's when I really, really decided that I need to go and become a public speaker, and I joined Toastmasters. I'm now a certified competent communicator with Toastmasters. So I used to keep getting blanked out on stages and not being able to speak because I thought that whenever I spoke, I always had to, you know, make an impact, I always had to appear as the most knowledgeable person in the crowd. That was what was stopping me from speaking my mind out. And so during the process, what I've learned is that I've got to focus less on how the audience perceive me, and instead focus more on the message that I want to take to them. And it doesn't need to be something that people don't know about, it can be just something very simple or sharing your own life experiences. So I think this is a very, very big learning process. Another thing has been about when I was the president of the Student Council at my school, and my school is a pretty big one. So we've got around 7000 students, to be able to carry out initiatives in our school have such a large crowd, it sort of gets very, very difficult. So to get people with different ideas on board. So there are so many projects, which we've had to give up because the planning was not right, or because we couldn't get all the stakeholders on board. But then causes projects fail, I've learned so much about how to be a better leader, how to be better at planning how to be better at organization, how to be better at transparent communication. And I think that's so so important to me, and what my position as student council president has taught me is really, really invaluable. Podcast Host 33:12 Can I just say that I love the story of the public speaking, you said you got up on stage, you froze, it was in front of a large crowd. And after that experience, you're like, I need to be a better public speaker. And I think that's so indicative of a lot of the students that I've chatted with on top of the class, it's like, failure doesn't mean that that's not for you. Failure just means that that's something I need to work on, right. And like, you know, you join Toastmasters, you've been in the program for a little while now. And you know, been a part of TED talks and these kinds of things as well, which is awesome. And also on that whole kind of thing of the way the crowd perceives you versus the way you know, you might be kind of concerned about how the crowd perceives you, etc. I've done a lot of public speaking as well. And my general thought on that is the crowd is probably more scared of public speaking than you are right? Or like, generally speaking, a lot of people are quite fearful of public speaking. So the mere fact that you're up there on stage, you have already earned their respect, right? I think a lot of people get up on stage and feel like they're starting from, you know, behind the eight ball type of thing. Like they need to earn people's respect that they're already, you know, looking at a crowd thinking, why are you up there, etc. But that's not the case. Like I always get up on stage and think most of the crowd is really scared of public speaking. So the fact that I'm up here, they're already kind of cheering for me, they already want to see me do well. And it already kind of starts off with a positive relationship that I have with the audience. So there's a little tip that kind of helps me when I'm up on stage doing a 34:47 think of it Podcast Host 34:47 Yeah, like the majority of time. If you're watching someone talk, you're like, Don't stuff up. I'm cheering for you. Like, I wish you all the best when I'm watching someone speak I have no ill will towards them. Like I'm sending good vibes and I'm sending Good luck to them. And I'm like, just willing them to do well. And that's the vast majority of the audience. They're all kind of cheering for you. And I think that's a great positive intention to start with if you ever get up on stage. But before you go as well, final advice for students in any areas that we've covered today, whether that be setting up organizations being emotionally potential i'd, what would be your final advice for students, Anagha 35:25 I would say, or one thing is always be yourself and always do what you really wanted to make sure that you detox your social networks very often. So people who put you down people who discourage you very often keep a distance from them. That's what I call detoxing your social networks love it. The second thing is, I would say, keep learning. So make sure that you are exploring something new every day, regardless of what field you are in what interests you. Listen to resources, read up resources, every day, make sure that you learn something new so that you can keep updating yourself about what's happening around the world. And thirdly, enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy. I mean, of course, there are a lot of times social constraints, you've got academic constraints, but you know, a take time out sort of prioritize your work, plan things out in such a way that you can do what you love, and you can, you know, be happy and make others around you happy. Podcast Host 36:30 I love it. Thank you so much for joining us on the top of the class podcast. It's been fantastic to catch up and to hear about your story and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

#7 College Tips - The Must Listen Finance and Investing Crash Course with Jamie Beaton

🗓 MAR 17, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello and welcome to college tips. In today's episode, Crimson Education CEO and podcast co host Jamie Beaton gives a must listen Crash Course to students aiming for investing and finance careers. He shares his favorite resources and extracurriculars for high schoolers, a breakdown of the career pathways, and what to expect in your first few years working in finance. Let's chat with Jamie Beaton. Hey, Jamie, welcome to college tips. It's awesome to have you on the show. And I don't think we need too much of an introduction because people already know a lot about you as the CEO of Crimson Education and co host of the top of the class podcast. But in terms of your finance background, I think we could give some information about that. So can you tell listeners a little bit about your background in finance and investing, which I know is extensive. Jamie Beaton 01:06 Definitely. So I guess this all began in high school when I picked up AS economics when I was about 17. Up until that point, I never thought about economics investing in these areas. But I really fell in love with the subject because I'd love math for many years. And when I picked up economics, I realized that actually, at the intersection of economics and math, there are all of these quite exciting finance business topics. There's a real career you can have working as an investor working on Wall Street, etc. So that was kind of the initial piece in high school. And then I headed it off to Harvard, where I did applied math and economics, which basically is a major that a lot of aspiring wall street kids take the Applied Math economics generally, as you know, it's a more mathematically rigorous economics major at Harvard. And, you know, it's very, it's very popular for those who want to do things, they can read some banking. So basically, when I got to Harvard, my mission was very much beginning to finance. So my first summer I worked for a hedge fund called Weiss Asset Management, which is a leading hedge fund in Boston that does quantitative trading, so using various algorithms to trade the market. And that was really fantastic experience. And then from there, I got involved in a number of student clubs at Harvard, most notably Black Diamond capital, which basically is a investing club with students and restaurant money into the fund. And it's flipped. And based on those two books on investing experience in as a as a fund as a team, you make investment decision. And it's a really practical way to kind of build finance experience, it's quite realistic. And then from there, I have a fantastic opportunity to begin working at Tiger management, which is really one of the world's best hedge funds. And really one of the hedge funds that sort of started the hedge fund industry under the leadership of Julian Robertson. So I worked for a tiger for several years while I was at Harvard, over the summers during term time. And that was really the bulk of my finance experience. And so we traveled around the US meeting company CEOs to research stocks, to learning how to do short selling, financial modeling, and all the various parts that it required to be a good financial analyst. Following that, of course, I've been born in Crimson for many years. But as I did my MBA at Stanford, I did take a lot of extra finance classes. And it's an area that I've really kept up to speed on, because if they're really relevant trends to our students, and also, you know, to our investment decisions at Crimson as well. So that's a bit of background on sort of my history of finance, so to speak. Podcast Host 03:23 As I said, it was extensive, and it proves to be extensive. But you know, the fact that you're only in your mid 20s, still. Now, in my view, like it seems that finance and consulting and these kind of like, I guess, buzzwords have been thrown around a lot more in high school Nowadays, people are like, Oh, I want to be a consultant. And I want to be someone who works on Wall Street. What are the differences or similarities that those career paths might have? Because I hear them throwing around almost an equal portions? Jamie Beaton 03:50 Yeah, well, so these things are quite different. So let's start with consultant. So we will say consulting, they often managed to consultant and this often means working at firms like McKinsey, Bain or Boston Consulting Group, that's really the top here, followed by firms like Oliver Wyman firms like PwC, your EY etc., which offer some kind of consulting services. But generally speaking, the job of the management consultant is that a big company will usually hire you to advise on an important strategic project. So let's say you're Google, and you want to figure out how to get into the social media space. And you might hire McKinsey to look at different options for things to buy or potential opportunities and businesses you could create. These projects typically involve teams of about four analysts per project. But you can of course, high multiple teams if you want. And generally speaking, the clients will be paying upwards of half a million a week for these teams to work on their their cases. And as a result, they expect very high caliber people to be assigned to the case into the hiring model of firms like McKinsey, Bain and BCG has a darkly been to hire the most academic students from various top universities and their particular to hire from Many of the Ivy League schools, Harvard was known for a while as McHarvard because McKinsey hired so people from that school. So basically, management consulting is really versatile. Because as a 23, 24 year old, you get to work on a different pace every six to eight weeks, you learn about many different industries and get really thorough training and experience because many people that join consulting, don't actually have any previous business experience for him to the company has had to really develop detailed training programs. And so it's one of the most effective ways to rapidly appeal your business understanding strategic thinking ability to dive in different industries, that management consulting, kind of solving real world business problems, and making recommendations with large companies but what they should do with their resources. The second part of the question is, what is Wall Street? What does that actually mean? So Wall Street, although it is a street in New York broadly refers to the finance sector and all of the firm's you can work at, you know, in this associated area, and that includes a wide variety. So it's everything from working behind the scenes on a risk desk, figuring out whether a portfolio of stocks is risky, or you know, what kind of return profile it has, all the way to the more glamorous jobs where you're investing and actually making investment decisions where you look at the market, look at different companies figure out what you should buy, see what a good prices, then try and enter these trades with a view to make a profit. Now, the most popular way to enter finance is as an investment banker, and that usually involves working for a firm like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, you know, other firms like this, um, Citibank, Credit Suisse are all examples. As an investment banker, you typically are doing a couple of jobs the first you're trying to help companies IPO or less than a public market. The second is that you are involved in the buying and selling of companies. Let's say you have a company and the company wants to buy another company, they'll hire an investment bank has typically facilitate that transaction. In many ways you could think about a real estate agent, but definitely with a lot more perhaps math and finance skills and bigger transaction sizes. Now the other kind of way you can enter the investment banks as a sales and trading analyst, and minimus job, you may help clients execute trades, let's say you've got a big company and they want to do a foreign exchange trade, you might help them execute that trade. You also occasionally will be trading on the bank's own balance sheet and making investment decisions. But that's getting increasingly real with some of the new reforms. But overall, your end of the year the investment industry is either a investment banker or a sales and trading analyst. And then for a select few people. And you can skip that that's called the sell side where you're typically selling services or selling stocks, etc. to what's known as the buy side and the buy side is the more high paying area, we are actually making investment decisions. And typically there are three areas of note. One is hedge fund analysts or investment analysts. The next is private equity analysts, and the third is venture capitalists. So just quickly a hedge fund analyst is investing stocks and publicly traded stock. So investing money in publicly traded stocks like stock exchange's, venture capitalists are investing in private companies usually early stage, you know, looking for much higher return but with a much greater chance of failure. And then finally, there's private equity analysts, your job is to buy quite mature but private companies that are usually grown at slower growth rates, they're trying to cut costs, make them more efficient than sell them, usually 6-10 years. So that's kind of the summary of the finance side of the house. So that overall differently some of the most exciting career pathways for many of our young ambitious firms and students around the world. Podcast Host 08:32 Yeah, well, thank you for that awesome explanation. I think I've actually learned quite a few things from that, which is awesome. I'm interested in the more investment finance side. So we'll stick with that today. I think a lot of students who do a lot of extracurriculars at school, learning what they want to do after high school and university and career path from those extracurriculars. But I think in terms of like investing, or finance, there's not a huge amount of extracurriculars that schools will typically put on, for students interested in this pathway. You know, we've seen a couple of fantastic students on the top of the class like Aryaansh and Koki, who have done really amazing things in high school, or like, I guess, outside of high school in their own time to kind of learn about this finance industry and do what is really cool extracurricular. But what's your thoughts on how students can learn about finance learn about investing whilst they're in school? Jamie Beaton 09:24 Okay, it's a really good question. So the first thing that I would say is, first of all, if you want to be one of the students, as I said, at Harvard, where you can break into by side as a hedge fund analyst in your, you know, early 20s, rather than typically the path of going for years into investment bank, and then looking to make that transition, you have to start learning that content earlier. And one of the big focus areas of our school you know, comes in global Academy comes before philosophy is to equip students to compete much earlier on in their careers. So your question is very timely, because many high school students and can get onto this early, so the first thing the student should do Learn a level economics a level psychology a level math or equivalent AP qualifications like AP microeconomics, AP macroeconomics, AP, basic calculus, AP psychology. The reason why is math, economics and in psychology are three of the critical areas of knowledge you need to be a successful investor in the market. And there's not really much point, you know, doing a lot of extracurriculars if you're weak in those areas. So first of all want to take a deep dive there, you can also add some accounting, which is actually it's kind like the language of Finance. It's the language of how a company is doing. And having accounting knowledge helps you evaluate stocks and other investment opportunities. So you definitely want to get familiar with the accounting statements as well, if you can, you can learn that through various online courses. For example, we have a learn stock investing online course you can take which we can put in the link. Or you can also look at things like Coursera is Wharton, a financial modeling course, which a number of my ambitions from the students take out a recommendation as far as the other extracurriculars. And once you've kind of achieved that core area of knowledge, you want to move to kind of like some reading activities. So for example, Seth Klarman, a famous billionaire hedge fund investor in Boston, has a book called margin of safety. And you can get the PDF online. That's one of the you know, stronger interactions to find it. Now a professor at Harvard Mahir Desai has a book called, I think the wisdom of finance, which is a guide to, you know, principles of finance written in a way that's quite understandable. That's really, really good read as well. And so you know, that's kind of the reading content. And when you apply for schools, like say, you know, Columbia, you have to state what books you read recently. So that kind of coverage is important. Now, as far as the hard extracurriculars. Things like the Tiger Global Case Competition, which is the world's largest High School case, competition from business analysis is a really good one to do. And there's also areas like stock investing competitions, where you get to pitch stocks, and they're growing in popularity around the world, you can also run your own your school community, the next thing is you can create a financial investment club at your school. Or you can, for example, join the Crimson Global Academy out online high school and participate in our investing club, you can also do things like, for example, going to invest in conferences, what, generally speaking don't have an age limit. And you can find them in local areas, you can get internships at local funds, or global funds. We also help those as well through both internships that can be remote or in person, we have seen some interns recently PwC, for example, to get some finance experience. And then finally, you can look at things like research so you can get involved with economics professors, pop them in different ways, with local online support programs. And that's a very popular way to build that kind of experience. Well, one of our Crimson students, Lucas Lee, who got into Harvard and Princeton with us, and is now working on Wall Street, you know, we spent a lot of time with them kind of walking them through some of the relevant behavioral finance economic research before he applied to schools like Harvard and Princeton. And without an interest at finance, there are a couple of different things you can think about. There's also some related skills such as debating, because when you pitch stocks outside of fun, you've got to be able to convincingly articulate your argument, look at the you know, weaknesses and then argument. And so, you know, activities, like debating really builds up a lot of those core skills as well, which is why top hedge funds like Bridgewater love debaters as an example, there are a couple of quick examples that I'd give you. Podcast Host 13:17 Yeah, well, that's a fantastic thing for students to work on, I think if they were probably hopefully taking down a lot of notes, or you can obviously check the transcript as well, because we'll have this full transcript there. But I'm interested in like his students investing in things like Bitcoin ripple, like a couple of stocks Is that a good part of the learning process for students to actually put either a bit of their own money forward, or perhaps their parents could mind them a few bucks to actually put money into the market is that worth doing when you're 16, 17? Jamie Beaton 13:46 So generally speaking, I'm pretty negative on people investing in Bitcoin, as like or associated cryptocurrencies, as the for end the market. The reason for this is that generally most stocks or stock indexes like the s&p 500, which is the 500 biggest companies in America, they historically have less volatility, they've got a high what's called a Sharpe ratio, or the ratio of return over risk. And basically, to analyze a stock, you've got to understand how the company operates, you know, how demand may change for its products, other kind of factors, like competition. So it's quite an intellectual exercise that you can, you know, really study and understand and, you know, build some good skills behind when you're analyzing Bitcoin and other currencies. It's basically pure gambling to be honest around where the price is going to go, because there's no fundamental value attached to Bitcoin or any of these other currencies. And up until recently, they've had very limited actual real world use. So you can't, for example, go buy a coffee with a Bitcoin, with very few exceptions. And so generally speaking, it's really speculative. And typically what happens is when the bitcoin price rises a lot, there's lots of media articles covering people that have done very well and that makes people pile into the asset and they want to drop so people lose money. Some of the recent GameStop pusteria splits kind Like speculative, her chasing activity is really quite antithetical to you know what strong investing principles usually are. And they don't really teach you much about the market. So overall, I'm not a big fan of staying with those assets. So it's much better to, for example, go and read things like Warren Buffett's investing letters and look at some restaurant companies like Coke and understand how you might value a business like that. That's gonna be more useful set of skills in general than if you you know, sort of speculatively, trade, cryptocurrencies. Podcast Host 15:28 Yeah. Okay. That's good advice. I think for students who are aiming for a career in finance, investing, etc. It's probably a little bit hard to know exactly what they're getting themselves in for in terms of like the hours the workload some of the things that they might be doing day to day, is there any tips based on your experiences, in terms of like what students should actually expect from that career path? I think a lot of students are looking at that career path, perhaps because they say dollar signs, right. And I think a couple of those dollar signs might end up in their pockets. But I know it's not a walk in the park. But what are some of your experiences both the good and the bad? Jamie Beaton 16:00 So I would definitely say that if you want to earn a lot of money as young person in the world today, the two most consistent paths to do it would probably be working as a private equity hedge fund analyst in a Wall Street firm, or working for a big technology company like Facebook, Google, where they do pay really competitive salaries. For both of them on the money side, a lot of outcomes and students now they've gone through careers, and we've gotten them into Ivy League and other great schools, they've gone on to work for Goldman Sachs, other top firms, and they usually start on salaries of about 110,000 USD, up to about 140,000 USD, depending on you know, which firm they're working at. Now, these salaries tend to rapidly grow over time. So salaries and finance as you go up the totem pole do grow quite significantly. So it is true that you can make a lot of money in these places. And part of the reason for that is that there's a lot of capital in the world that has to be invested somewhere because many things like countries, pension funds need to get returned. And so it requires lots of people to go put in all the effort to then invest all of this capital in general. And while there is a growing trend of what's called passive investing, where you just invest in broad indexes, you don't choose individual stocks. Most major and you know, sources of capital, like countries, pension funds, want to invest in some active strategies, which means thirdly is where people are making active investment decision. So overall, that create big demand many, many investment analysts and you know, that's kind of how that piece works. Now, as far as the hours, basically, if you work as a buy side investor, I investing someone's capital, the markets open from usually 9am, to sort of 5pm or so roughly, you know, in the New York timezone, St. And so those are the key hours that you want to be awake for usually, you know, working, but then of course, you might come in early. So at tiger, you started about 7am. And then, you know, would often stop at about, you know, 6.30-7, but we could, you know, could go longer if you want to father Day is a relatively common, so about a 60 hour 50 to 70 Hour Work Week is not as pretty standard, I think, on the investing side. But you're also really learning a ton. And so it's usually really fun for people doing this, the part that's really quite taxing, I would say, as the investment banks on the sell side, where you traditionally are putting in, you know, literally 100 hour plus work weeks. And it's not uncommon for interns to have to work 14, 16 consecutive days, and leave the office at 2am and have to be back at 8am, many, many days in a row. So in eastern banking, particularly in the junior rungs is really a bit of an insurance game. And there's huge attrition rates where very few investment bankers stick around for many years, many didn't leave to, you know, more favorable working environments. But these places are able to get away with it, because they do have really good extra opportunities when you work for them. And they pay well and they've got a great brand. But the hours are really brutal. And there's sort of no shying away from that. So if you're up for that, you know, by all means, but it's very hard to find a proof the investment bank, especially if you're in those Junior years, and there's many, many people willing to kind of compete and put in those hours to sort of land the jobs. That would be kind of a dynamic to them over in tech, it's you know, much more chill working hours, usually 50 hours a week is pretty standard 40 hours a week. So that's kind of how it works. Podcast Host 19:12 Yeah. Okay, good to hear. Now, one other question that I have is how realistic is it for students outside of the US so outside of the Ivy's outside of like your top 20 universities in the US outside of like your Oxbridge, LSAT, etc, to land those top jobs at like you goldman sachs and you know, Tiger management's, etc. Is it likely for a student to say from Australia, who studies commerce to end up as an intern for Goldman Sachs? Or is that like not the case at all really? Jamie Beaton 19:41 I mean, the short answer is it's borderline impossible, which is kind of sad, but the way the numbers work is basically when recruiting from say New Zealand um, you know, Goldman Sachs will take two or three people across the country for, you know, their team, and then in Australia, you know, the same thing is true across many of the top schools, they have a bit more recruiting aside, because there are large operations in Australia, but you do need to really have a GPA that's literally, you know, almost perfect within your university and be, you know, really prominent on campus having landed great internships. So this is not the kind of path where you can go down if you sort of cruise through a commerce degree. And then you decide, okay, I want to get this and paint me shot. The people that make them this career track, I sort of gunning for it from the age of often 17 onwards in a pretty intensive way. So the best way to boost jobs and getting into this field is through getting into a top USA UK college programs at Wharton Business School, a very popular place for many outcomes and alumni, we've trained lfcs, accounting, finance, Cambridge, economics, many of these schools, but you really want to focus fire in high school and getting into these places, if that's really important career pathway for you. And it's worth knowing that like in finance is serious momentum around the brands you work for. So for example, if you leave college and you work for Credit Suisse, and which is sort of lower rank than, say, Goldman Sachs, it's very hard if you ever been switched into like a Goldman Sachs firm later on, and it sort of permanently puts you on a certain trajectory. So the financial industry is very competitive. And they do rely heavily on the signaling power, so to speak of the person's undergraduate school, you can kind of make up for this a little bit with masters and MBA programs, and then recruit from those programs. So that's a way to sort of second chances, so to speak. But you know, again, you're going to need to have some strong undergraduate grades, landers, business school program. So overall, that's what I would say for that, you know, really the top tier of jobs. However, there are many ways to work in finance. And if you want to just work for like a big four accounting firm, they take a huge proportion of people, so you don't need to necessarily push yourself particularly hard. In University, many people from New Zealand and Australia, for example, Singapore, etc, are able to successfully work for Big Four accounting firms. But if you don't want to push into that sort of upper level of Wall Street, the competition is very fierce, because the rewards are also very high as well. So that's kind of how the cookie crumbles. Podcast Host 21:56 Yeah, yeah. Well, final advice for students who are considering this pathway, perhaps not yet convinced that it's the pathway for them and want to get convinced that it's the pathway for them, you know, they want to look for that, I guess, certainty in their career path, but uncertain as yet as to if finance and investing is for them? What kind of advice would you give for those kinds of students? Jamie Beaton 22:19 The most important thing is you want to maximize your options. So you want to go ahead and take things like your a liberal math, you know, your AP, you know, BC calculus, for example, we were a little further maths, things like that, again, basically put you in a position where you can actually compete for these options, you want to think about what universities you're aiming for, because you're it's really a stack, if you get into these top us UK schools, that's really important to understand that no, kind of going into this. And, you know, I guess you probably want to understand where you want to be potentially working in the future as well, which might guide which University you'd go to to, the final thing I'd say is that like a lot of the content required for finance, you know, you can learn it, probably from the age of like, 16 onwards, honestly. And I've seen many really sharp students really front load that knowledge. So don't feel like you just need to kind of passively wait to get to university to that learning that from them in a great position to help you kind of build those core skills. So overall, it's a very doable career track, but you just need to really commit to it early and go hard. And then you you know, I see almost everyone that takes super seriously can land the job, but it's not the kind of thing you can just decide to do when you're 21. And you know, give it a crack. So you've got to be kind of on that steady path for many years. And you can always switch out a bit later on. So you're not committing to life and finance, but a couple years is a very popular place to start up your career and have a lot of value later on. So overall finance definitely a fantastic career trickery, but you got to start on early is the key message. I want people to think about this podcast today. Podcast Host 23:42 Yeah, I think that's completely correct. I remember one of the students were interviewed for the tiger global case comp one of the winners. He was like, through this experience, I know that I want to do business finance, investing, that kind of thing. And it wasn't until it had that really in depth intensive experience that he was like, Yes, this is what I want to do. So I think for students who are out there seeking out those opportunities, I think the TGCC or Tiger Global Case Comp will be happening again later in the year. So watch out for that and students if you would like the opportunity to work with someone like Jamie on your application to top universities in the US or indeed the UK, make sure to check out the show notes for a link to a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor in your area. Jamie, thank you so much for your time for your insights for your wisdom on all things finance and investing and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Jamie Beaton 24:33 Thanks, Alex. Have a good one. Podcast Host 24:35 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#38 Turning a Family Holiday into a Thriving Business and Simplifying eCommerce

🗓 MAR 13, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex cork and today I chat with Young Entrepreneur of the Year finalist, Liam Millward, Liam turned a travel blog into a 50,000 readership magazine, and has now turned his attention to simplifying e commerce. We chat building a social community starting a business and more. Let's chat with Liam Millward. Liam, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Liam 00:50 Yes, I guess I'm titled as a young entrepreneur, I guess. I'm 17 located here in Brisbane, working on a few exciting startups and businesses, mostly in the payments, travel type space. Yeah. Podcast Host 01:05 And what point did you feel as though you actually were an entrepreneur because I know this title gets thrown around a lot. And you could be an entrepreneur for, I don't know, selling a few things on Facebook marketplace, or you can be an entrepreneur for the things that you're doing, which is a little bit more than that fair to say. So at what point did you feel like you were an entrepreneur? Liam 01:25 Yeah, for sure. It's a term or title that's thrown around a lot. It's not something I use just willy nilly. It's not something I have on like my LinkedIn bio, or something like that. I feel like it is overused. However, I mean, I probably classify myself as more of a startup founder, I suppose when you bound something or start a business, that early stage is really crucial, whether you go forward or that stage where you go from coming from an idea into a founder, into a CEO. And going from there, yeah, I guess some founder, young entrepreneur, figuring it all out at the moment. Podcast Host 02:00 Yeah, it must be a pretty interesting pathway to take when you're still in school. And we can go all the way back to you starting a travel blog, because from where I sit and having read your bio, that seems to be with, you know, the kind of catalysts for realizing that there's potential for a young guy like yourself to reach 1000s of people. So is that right in saying that the travel blog was kind of the starting point for your entrepreneurial journey? Liam 02:28 Yeah, for sure. I wanted to go down the route of being a doctor, I guess, going into medicine. And the backstory is that we went traveling for three or four years around Australia, and world with my mom, dad, and assist on during that time started sharing our travels on social media. And that was kind of my first business accidentally, in some case, I suppose, started sharing our travels on social media grew an audience around 30,000 people in four months and started partnering with councils and tourism brands to promote regions and stuff like that through our blog, and also on their social media channels, we stopped traveling. And that was, that was a chance to move on to something a bit more exciting. So that's when I started navigate Australia, which was a free digital travel magazine focused on our sharing Australian travel in a digital format that was free for travelers, and that grew to 50,000 readers in 12 months, I started partnering with councils and tourism brands and that type of thing, again, started making my first bit of money in business. And that was exciting, you know. And I guess the overview to that is starting something that you're really passionate about to begin when starting something that doesn't necessarily need to be this whole massive idea. We were already traveling. So sharing our travels was just kind of a byproduct of that. And it happened, because we were already doing it. So I suppose if you're doing sport, maybe you could share your sport or something like that. Podcast Host 03:53 Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the things that's so interesting about your travel blog is that a lot of travel blogs out there is written by adults and or parents, usually if you're targeting the family market, which is a very lucrative market. But if you are a student or you're in the child market, as it were, you often have more influence or more power over whatever way you go, than sometimes the parents might have because the you know, the kids might say, Hey, I really want to go to here. I saw this blog I saw, you know, Liam's going out here, and he's having a good time. Did you feel like that was a part of the appeal of your blog that it was written by a high schooler rather than a parent. Liam 04:34 It was very mixed. So mom's still was very passionate about writing and, and submitted articles to travel magazines and that type of thing. When we started working with them, I was probably more focused towards the photography side of things, and a lot of like the social media content. So yeah, I suppose that was a very strong kroetsch that we went with began accidentally that was, I guess councils and tourism brands wanted to partner with us. Or maybe Because it was pretty unique. There's a lot of travel bloggers out there that there's not many people that are 14, 15, 16 that are doing it. So yeah, I think that was a strong point. Podcast Host 05:11 Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, as you mentioned, it can be anything that you blog about or anything. It doesn't have to even be a blog. It could be YouTube, or Instagram, whatever it might be. Yeah. Yeah, in the age of the pandemic, it travel might not happen extensively for the next couple of months, still, but I still think that's a really relevant pace that students can start voicing their opinions, or voicing their thoughts to try and get into that family marketing Liam 05:38 could be anything, you know, like, you're passionate about the environment. And these are just examples, like a blog is just one idea. But if you say if you're passionate about the environment, regularly, tell your story, get people engaged in what you're doing, build an audience, and then that audience follows you into whatever you do next. And whether you down the track, okay, you've started a blog, we're just using a blog as an example, you start the blog, that also gives you credibility and validation. If say, you want to go and do something in journalism, or marketing, or Yeah, it just opens up so many opportunities. Podcast Host 06:10 What did you learn from the experience of writing the travel blog, like in terms of creating a community in terms of creating posts that would get reactions and likes and comments and these kinds of things, you're effectively like a social media manager? So yeah, what did you learn about the art of doing that when you're in high school? Liam 06:31 Yeah, I guess it was simple things, learning the simple skills of when people are most engaged on social media, when you're going to get the most engagement and comments and likes and to see maximum results for sponsored posts and stuff like that. And I guess those skills really helped me in also building partnerships, sales, reached out on email and stuff like that went and started navigate Australia, because the partnerships and sales were really how the magazine was making the money, you know, and I built those initial relationships and the skills by starting a travel blog, initially, graphic design, how to build a website, how to email people, as I said, Yeah, Podcast Host 07:11 it's interesting that you mentioned all of those things, because I didn't study marketing. But obviously, I've been working in the marketing industry for a number of years now. And I intending to think that a degree in marketing is becoming less and less useful. I don't really know exactly what they teach in marketing at universities these days. But it seems like there's so much you can learn about social media marketing, partnerships, advertising, these kinds of things, just by doing your own thing is that now a potential future career path, obviously, like you're in entrepreneurship more broadly. But those marketing skills that you've developed, that's probably going to be your go to for the next, you know, however many years that no matter what you create, and no matter where you go in business, by yourself, or working for other companies, whatever it might be, that skill sets going to hold you in good stead. Do you see the potential of that? Liam 08:03 Yeah, I think that everyone needs to learn some art of marketing. I mean, a marketing is reaching out to someone on LinkedIn, if you want to connect with them. Marketing isn't always marketing someone to sell them something. It could be increasing your network, you know, I'm reaching out to someone LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, just to have a chat with them and learn about what they're doing, what their experiences are. A lot of people don't know how to successfully do that, or come across as being a scam message, you know, but if you can do it successfully, I mean, you can meet people at high ranking positions, whether it's like MasterCard, apple, whoever it is, and I think that's probably should be the main focus for a lot of young people. Podcast Host 08:44 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm interested as well in the timeline of how you grow a community from zero to then being like a 30,000 person community to then starting navigate Australia, which is a 50,000 person community. I think a lot of people might say a lot of students might say, like, how long does that even take? Like, how many posts roughly would I have to do to make a community of that size? And how much time does that take all up? Not just in the duration of the posts, but also like, how much time are you putting into this project in any given day or in any given week, obviously, like you're in a pretty privileged position at the point that you were traveling full time so I guess it was just like a part of documenting your journey. But do you have any kind of advice for students in that instance of like how long they need to stick with something like this to start seeing these kind of results? Liam 09:36 I mean, it all just depends on how rapidly growing the industry is how many people are interested in what your target audiences like what customers you have. Then if you were to start writing something on Bitcoin now it probably explode because it's such a massive thing at the moment. If you start writing something on the successes of Ilan Musk, you it would probably explode because people are so fascinated about him at the moment, where if you go back to writing something about loom bands, or writing about fidget spinners, I mean, probably no one's going to read about it because that craze is gone. So it's all about, you've got to be passionate about, you got to know what you're talking about, you probably, if you're young, maybe you're already doing it. And it's just kind of you adding on to what you're already doing in those initial stages. But you've got to know kind of who your audience is, in maybe your you are that audience, and you know, where that audience is located. So for navigate Australia, it was Facebook, a lot of older travelers travel around Australia, and they caravan, and a lot of older people use Facebook. So that was where we got our main audience. However, a lot of young people are starting to travel now. And that's what we got a lot of our younger audience from was Instagram. So there was two elements to I mean, man of posts, I mean, you can post however much you want, Facebook probably posted like once a month, if I'm honest, on the Facebook page of navigate Australia, whereas on Instagram, once a day, yeah, Facebook, you can post in a lot of community groups that will have high engagement. Whereas on Instagram, you've really got to engage with people suppose by commenting liking, because you can't really share posts on Instagram. So yeah, finding where your audience is probably knowing your audience, if it's your first business, because you don't have loads of capital or money behind you to do so much data analysis and research, you don't have the team. So yeah, Podcast Host 11:29 that's good advice. I think it's about knowing where your audience is likely to be. And I was interested actually, to say how you grew your Facebook audience, I tend to think community groups are a fantastic way to grow any kind of audience, if you do find those, as I said, active groups as well, people who are posting, you know, you can see how many posts they're doing in any given day, how many members there are. And you're like, yeah, this is a group that I really want to make an effort in. And really build an audience pretty strong in there, particularly if you are knowing who the kind of membership is, you know, whether they be the parents or whether they be kids, that kind of thing, probably more parents on Facebook these days. Liam 12:04 So it was definitely the community groups. And then with that, you grow your email audience. So then you can market them to go and follow your Instagram. And then you market them back to reading your magazine again, and it's just kind of you try and make it a circular type thing. We started partnering with councils, again, they did a sponsored post in our magazine, they would then post that onto their Facebook page, which would have like 30,000 poles. So then therefore come over to us, we partner with a brand, or to do a giveaway or something like that, it would be spread across the social media channels, the requirements to entry would be like for you to have to share on your Facebook page and tag a few friends. That was another way to promote it. So that was really successful for us. Podcast Host 12:47 Give us an insight into those partnership meetings. So you're calling up like a local council, or you're calling up a brand or whatever it might be. And how does the conversation go? Are you making that call? Or is your mom making that call? Who's sending the email, like talk us through the ins and outs of that? Liam 13:03 Yeah, so it was totally me. I did everything. Graphic Design, partnerships, email, outreach, everything. And the way it went was in the whole time that we had Australia was operating, I probably spoke to five people on the phone, I didn't even have to pick up the phone. That's not even something to be worried about. A lot of people don't actually want to speak on the phone these days. It's just all over email, Facebook Messenger Instagram, people just kind of bothered, you know, they like the instantaneous ability to just message. So I'll just outreach to all these brands councils via email with a scripted message. And if I replied, Well, then it would go from there. If they didn't reply, I would leave it for say 10 days, chase it up. They didn't reply from there, maybe leave for a couple of months and then chase it up again. So yeah, it was all Most of it was by email, they'd let you know, straight away if they were interested or not. Let them know the prices, let them know the outreach of their kind of sponsorship within the magazine would be and yeah, from that, Podcast Host 14:02 did anybody advise you to contact councils because I wouldn't have thought of that. If I was a student driving around Australia, I wouldn't have thought about reaching out to councils, I would have been someone who had to say, hey, counselors have bit of money. If you you know, send them an email, you might be able to get 500 700 bucks or whatever it might be to do a post or a sponsored post about that. Like how did you even figure out to contact these kind of people? Liam 14:26 Yeah, no, that was a huge mistake. So I didn't contact any counselors for the first 910 months of operating this magazine. And in the end, they were really struggling to get sponsorship within the magazine because smaller companies and brands were no one was traveling. So this was at the start of COVID. No one was traveling brands had run out of marketing budgets, and interstate travel was only allowed. So I thought okay, I'm going to reach out to all these councils in Australia. Every single Council in Australia I sent an email to their admin front desk. Now, I said, Who's the best person to contact in regards to a travel marketing inquiry, I probably got a response from 80% of them. And yeah, loads and loads and loads of councils wanting to be a part of the very next addition. So now that I look back on it, I wish I had built these partnerships from the very start. And it's a perfect example of not knowing exactly where your customers may be from the very start. Yeah, I like your tactic. Actually, by sending a front desk email, just add me an email with a who is the best person to contact, you don't give them all the information in the first email, you don't bore them with like four or five paragraphs of crap, and they're not going to read, you know, yeah. And then they actually reply because they interested in what they could help you with. Podcast Host 15:42 Yeah, cuz you're not trying to pitch the front desk, you're not trying to pitch the admin person, you're trying to pitch the marketing budget person, right. And at this early stage, you're just trying to get the details of who that person actually is. Um, so that's a very good tip for students. I think if you're looking to do this kind of thing, don't go around trying to pitch the front desk, you know, ask who you're trying to pitch to first. And then Liam 16:05 that's with everything, you know, like, if you want to speak to someone at Microsoft, that's heading up there. People on cultural you want to speak to someone that's in the innovation department, don't give the pitch to the front desk person or the admin officer, you know, they're not going to be interested in not going to reply because their brains just too full of Oh, my God, who do I contact? So yeah, just ask who's the best person to contact in regards to whatever inquiry at whatever company a I find that to be the most successful way of Podcast Host 16:32 reaching out to people? And in that scripted message, would you include your age? No, really, I thought that would have been an interesting tactic to kind of say, hey, look, yeah, I'm a student, or I'm a high schooler or something like that, to kind of add that little bit more interest or you lifted out entirely, Liam 16:48 I left it out entirely, because I didn't want to come across as just another kid trying to get something make the magazine was pretty established at this stage didn't really need to prove myself to councils like they would have advertised or not, didn't really care about my age. So now I don't I don't include an outreach. I mean, have a LinkedIn profile people look you up on LinkedIn if they've got interested, and I included in my LinkedIn bio there. Podcast Host 17:15 Alright, that's interesting. I do respect that once you've got the established brand, you just lead with that and not the fact needed to kind of give me the fact that you might be a student or a high schooler. Liam 17:25 Yeah, I didn't include my age anywhere in email. So I just think that comes across as wanting something or a lot of people think that it's just another kid, I probably can't be bothered getting back to them. Or like, you don't know what people are thinking. Podcast Host 17:38 Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, that's interesting. All right. Well, you've done navigate Australia, you firmly on the path to entrepreneurship and talk us through what were your next steps after navigate Australia? Liam 17:51 Yeah, multiple next steps. So I went and studied the Bri deployments, business, marketing and communications. And I started working on a startup called quantify, which was simplifying the way podcasts were monetized by connecting podcast creators with brands. And this is the perfect example of something that didn't fail, that it didn't pass validation. And this is where a lot of people mess up is that they fall in love with their product idea, or they fall in love with the possibilities that could bring and quantify was just too early to the podcasting market. In terms of advertising on podcast, there's just no money in it still. So yeah, digital Id really quickly. And now I'm working on instant Checkout, which is simplifying the way people I like simplifying stuff. So simplifying the way people are checkout online, basically creating an instant checkout experience. So consumers can check out from the product page, Podcast Host 18:47 what made you choose that particular thing to simplify? Because it's a problem that I think there's a couple other organizations or entrepreneurs trying to tackle that particular issue that what made you choose that and made you confident that that was your next vehicle to take towards entrepreneurship? Liam 19:03 Yeah, so again, validation, talking to talking to your customers, seeing if it's something that actually use. So for us, it was talking to small, middle, large brands, or e commerce brands, simply seeing if they would integrate this technology onto their website, we had interest. So it went from there started speaking with people at MasterCard, speaking of people at large companies like square and stripe, and then further validating, looking at competitors, seeing what they're doing, seeing what we can do to be better developing strategies to see if it's something that would actually work. And then that's just the start. So that's all just part of the validation. Now it actually comes down to building a product, building a team building the technology that's going to create revenue. So going back to the the initial stages of how I came up with the idea or how I knew it was something to move forward with. Again, it's very hard to come up with something that's totally really unique these days. So I was looking at companies like PayPal, a company in the US called bolt, and companies like these, that were somewhat simplifying the checkout, but still not simplifying it enough. And I thought that there's possibility here. So that's when I started researching, looking into the market a lot more speaking to people in the payments and checkout space. I'm noticing competitors overseas, and really noticing that it's a market that is quite new, and something to tap into early. Podcast Host 20:34 Right, right, right. Well, did you have a moment though, where you were going through a checkout yourself, for instance, and you had to navigate away from the page that you're on to that separate checkout page and the cart and all the rest of it? And you have a moment where you're like, this is stupid? How is this taking so long? Surely there is an easier way to do this. And then you went and looked at PayPal and Bolton, these kinds of things? Or was it the other way around? Where you were like, hey, what kind of cool companies are in this space? What kind of skill set Do I have, what kind of interest Do I have, and then try and figure it out from there. Liam 21:06 First, I had problems as a consumer, and that was getting to the checkout page in two different instances. One was, there was like 15 buttons there. If we try to click did pay after pay all these ones PayPal, that you can check out with. So that was one problem just way too cluttered for the consumer. Um, the other problem was the fact that it wasn't letting me check out because I'd already had an account on this merchants website, because I bought an item before, but I couldn't remember my password. And therefore I couldn't check out. So a lot of these ecommerce sites just make it really hard for their customers to buy. Like, what merchant wants to make it hard for someone to spend money on their website. Yeah. So that's where the idea came from. Podcast Host 21:51 I love that that's a very real instance, I think I've actually done the same thing where it's like, you need to log in, like, we've noticed that your email is similar to an email. It's like, why is this thing taking me so long to try? And Liam 22:06 why is it so hard to spend money? Podcast Host 22:08 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It shouldn't be at all. No, that's really cool. So at that point, I'm thinking that you've probably got two thoughts in mind, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but one of them is, okay, here's the problem. What kind of knowledge gap is there towards the solution? Like, what do I need to figure out to make a solution happen? And the other thing would be, what is this going to cost to start making this happen? Like, do I have the capital behind me to turn this idea into reality? Are those the typical two things you come up against? And how do you solve them? Liam 22:42 I'm Initially, I probably wouldn't even think about the money necessarily, or the capital, how you want to put it, it's a challenge for every business, whether you have revenue or not. Initially, you need to know exactly how you're going to solve this. So we had like, I have noticed that the checkout experience is bulky time consuming to hassle merchants who want to increase their sales merchants have a really big problem of abandoned carts, they lose a lot of money per year to abandon carts. So then it came down to Okay, how am I going to fix this? How am I going to solve this problem. And the solution I came up with was allowing consumers to checkout instantly. So no need to add the item to your cart, no need to go to your cart, no need to fill out all the pages and pages of information. You don't even have to fill out your credit card information. It's all gone instantly. So first thinking of the solution, obviously, you as the founder need to know what you're going to do. You need to drive the vision, drive the strategy drive the product, because at the end of the day, you someone has to know what that core product is. And I guess that's how you start a company, you know, you've got to have a problem. And what's the solution? And then it came off, okay, how are we going to build this, my skill set is very in the business side of things like partnerships, sales, growth, strategy, all this type of thing. I need someone in the engineering side, the technical side, and that's something that we're still struggling on now. So in terms of building the product, that's a massive focus for us. Now, actually, developing the product is just as hard though, you need to not only think of the what you're going to build in your mind, maybe jot some things down on paper, look at competitors look at current things in the market in this type of thing. Namely, to actually design it, you need to design it so you can show it to potential merchants or your customers to see if it's something that actually use because there's no point spending potentially a million dollars on something and it's crickets when you actually go to lunch, no one's gonna use it. So yeah, really figuring out product, really figuring out what your potential team, you need, a way your skill set lays. who your customers are, what problem you're solving, how you solving it. Yeah, Podcast Host 24:50 yeah. So I think that's an interesting one where it's like you kind of dream up the idea and the concept, but in terms of the actual building of it, and the back end of it. That's a whole new kettle of fish, there could be the issue where what you dream up isn't possible, have you verified that it is actually possible to do all this instantly. Liam 25:12 I wouldn't say anything's not possible. If you thought of the idea, I would say probably a lot of other people thought of the idea of simplifying checkout isn't a new idea. It's just a way that we're doing it is new. So finding the skills and people to guide you potentially help you potentially even be part of the company to build it is a strong point that you as the founder, or you, as the product kind of visionary need to think of a new or unique solution of how you're going to achieve what your thoughts are. Podcast Host 25:40 Yeah, fair enough. 25:41 Now, Podcast Host 25:41 one thing I am interested in is, what are the logistics of setting up a company. So if you're a high school student, and you need to, I guess, like legally register a business name, you need to like register a domain name, you need to do all these kinds of ins and outs that are boring, but essential? Is there anything that surprised you along the way, or we were like, geez, there's more paperwork here than I thought would be necessary to start a business. Liam 26:07 It sounds more complicated than it is. And usually, it's very easy, you just register a business name, actually, you don't even need to register it to begin with, if you don't want to just kind of get out there. There's no again, no point spending money on something that's not going to work. So just come up with some brand name, make a logo up, make a explanation video, or a PowerPoint of how you're going to solve this problem and just go out there and start talking to your customers talking to people in the industry. I mean, for me, I wanted to do something in the payments, ecommerce checkout space. So I started speaking to people already in that space, talking to founders already in that space. At this stage, we hadn't even registered the company to name you have a domain name, didn't even have an email address with that company. I mean, I'd already built the connections. So had introductions. So that was definitely beneficial for me. However, it is possible for anyone to just reach out to people on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is probably the best resource, but then Okay, you validated your product, you want to go forward? Well, then you just register a business name, build maybe a simple website, obviously, need an email address, that's somewhat business, like with your business name in it, maybe register some social medias, try and get the handles, just figure it all out as you go, because you will figure it out. I mean, there's eventually documents you need, like MBAs, nondisclosure agreements, but it'll all come you'll figure it out as you go. Podcast Host 27:28 Yeah, well, I like that idea that you don't need to have everything sorted before you start taking it to market. And I think that's a lot of what students probably think entrepreneurship is, that's like, I've got a website, and I'm going to have an Instagram, remember this, because if I'm going to take it to someone, I want them to be able to say that were legit. And the way that we're going to be seen as legit is we're going to have the email and the social media and this and this and this, but really, like, you're going to have the logo, the name, and like an explanation, video, PowerPoint, and that is the tools that you need to start doing your validation, right, like a LinkedIn profile, hit a logo and a name and how we're solving this kind of problem. And then after that, you can start worrying about the social media accounts and the website and, you know, registering the business name that kind of do it Liam 28:18 as you go. But you don't need to build all at once. I mean, you can do it all at once if you want to. But again, it all costs money. And it might Podcast Host 28:25 not even be validated. Right? Like, yeah, you might you might start taking it to market and then people like, Oh, actually, no, I don't want that. And you didn't spend all this time making all these social media channels and stuff. And yeah, no one really wants what you've got. Yeah. So yeah, definitely a good lesson there for potential entrepreneurs, has building these businesses giving you the opportunity to meet a lot of other young entrepreneurs along the way. Liam 28:49 I'm not necessarily I probably know a lot more adults in the business world. However, I do know a fair few young people around the country. And they're working on things, quite exciting things, either sneaking it in school hours or on the train home, on the bus home, on the weekends, like wherever they have some spare time. So yeah, there's definitely a lot. Podcast Host 29:10 And do you think in terms of schooling and entrepreneurship? Do you think the two can coexist? Do you think that school can make better entrepreneurs? Liam 29:22 Um, I think that if someone wants to be an entrepreneur, they kind of automatically are, obviously, there's the education behind it, you need to have a correct mindset, things like this. However, like, if you're really passionate about building something, you'll just go and build it. If you're really passionate about the idea that you have, you'll just go and achieve it. You don't need someone to tell you what an amazing job you're doing, because a lot of people tell you that it's not possible, or that the idea sucks. So again, just starts with the founder starts with the person of having the mindset having the vision, having the kind of mentality around wanting to achieve something, and I don't Think that say you as a person, as a teacher can go and say, Oh, you've got to start a, you've got to go and start a travel blog, you know? Podcast Host 30:08 Yeah, exactly. But do you feel like there's any pressure on students to stay students, you know, like to kind of stay in that mode of study, do exams, get good scores, go to uni, and then do the entrepreneurship thing. I think that's like, generally, that seems to be the overriding social pressure is to stay in that pretty narrow way of thinking. I mean, like a lot of schools have entrepreneurship programs. But at the same time, like, it is with the view that the student will end up finishing school and getting a good score, because that's typically what schools use, in their marketing, like of a school is going to market, the success of the school, it's going to be the success of the students in the scores they get, and the universities they get into and those kinds of things. It's a bit hard to market, even a successful entrepreneur, because it's just not the norm. And like, not many parents are sending their kid to school for them to start a business, if you know what I mean. Liam 31:07 Yeah, it's a hard one, because every student or kid wants to do something differently. Again, I really think that if a student wants to achieve something, they'll just go and achieve it. Obviously, you need the support, say your family, maybe a friend to teachers, and the kind of the material or advice around whatever you're doing, that also helps. But if you're again, if you're really passionate about it, you just go and find these people to give you advice give you support, I mean for schools is probably hard to achieve. But I think there's definitely possibilities there. And there's a lot lots of external providers and programs now that are coming into schools to try and help with this. I think it's an important thing for everyone to have some type of entrepreneurship or innovation in their mindset, whether they go and work for themselves, start a company or work for someone else. Because a lot of companies are chasing young people, even older people to innovate new product ideas, innovate new strategies lead a successful team inside a company. And this comes from innovative people, you know, Podcast Host 32:11 yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, just on that support side of things as well, who has been your support network, during this whole period, I'm going to guess your family's been really supportive of your ideas. And you kind of stepping into the entrepreneur entrepreneurship side of things a little bit more. But has there been anybody outside of that? That's kind of said, hey, yeah, Liam, go for it. Like, this is a great idea. And you know, I'll try and introduce you to people these kinds of things. Liam 32:37 Oh, yeah, for sure. I'm probably known for having one of the biggest networks here in Brisbane, for my age, I do know quite a few people. And they've definitely been very supportive, which I'm very thankful for, like family. Yes. However, like other founders have been very supportive. Obviously, you build like that core network of people that you're regularly in touch with. And then knowing a whole heap of other people that you can go out and having a problem with some legal stuff may or just get in touch with this founder of this founder and just ask for their advice. Mom having some trouble with my email marketing campaign. No one's opening it, no one's reading it. Maybe I'll just get in touch with Sally over at this marketing company. I've spoken to her before, you know. So I think that's really important to build your network, probably one of the most important things actually. But for me, yeah, just that cool group of people that are that are other founders are the people in in the industry. I mean, some of these people include people that work at MasterCard, stripe square, these are and then other founders that either have a small startup, large company. Yeah, it all varies. Podcast Host 33:44 Yeah. And I'm going to guess a lot of those connections are made through LinkedIn as well, as you said, that's a really big helping hand for you. Yeah, Liam 33:49 for sure. Yeah, LinkedIn is, if you didn't know on LinkedIn, and you're in business, you're probably making a very big mistake Podcast Host 33:55 here. fair to say, I mean, I'm a fan of LinkedIn as well. And obviously, that's where we connected. I also saw you on Twitter posting a lot as well. Which leads me to ask if students wanted to follow along with your journey. How best could they do that? Would that be through LinkedIn or Twitter or bow? Liam 34:09 Probably LinkedIn? Yeah, I actually don't post on social media that much. I probably engage more on LinkedIn, just because I connect with a lot of people over there. You know, on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever, Podcast Host 34:22 right? Well, I will put your LinkedIn in the show notes so people can hopefully connect with you if they're already on the platform. If not, hopefully, that's a further encouragement to get on LinkedIn. And is there any final advice you would give to our listeners before we depart? Um, Liam 34:38 I think just finding something that you really, really passionate about is the key. Not just starting something that someone else is having success with or just starting another social media account or whatever it is just because someone else is having success. Find something that you want to do you want to achieve in something that you've done? A great skill to you know, everyone's unique in what they bring. Yeah, so Podcast Host 35:04 do something that you want to do. I'm going to challenge you on that before we go. Because I've been taught talking to some students about passion, because obviously, like, a lot of students, they get given the advice to follow something that they're passionate about do something they're passionate about. But you know, if you're a high school student who is good at math and good at English, but you don't necessarily have like that external passion, that thing that kind of wakes you up in the middle of the night and makes you scribble down some ideas and these kinds of things, it can be a little bit difficult to know where to start. And I always say to students passion is something that comes after a considerable amount of time invested in a particular interest or curiosity, you know, you could have been doing your travel blogging, for instance. And then after you start seeing the engagement, and you start, you're trying to figure out like, the thing that you're interested in is how do I create more engagement on my platform, like the travel blogging is the vehicle for that, but then, like, the thing that you're most interested in is creating engagement, for instance, and then you kind of go down that rabbit hole, and then all of a sudden, you're super interested or passionate about digital marketing or social media marketing, for instance. So in terms of those students who may not have that passion as such at this stage, what advice would you give to them? Liam 36:20 Yeah, it's a hard one. I think that I really struggled initially. And what did I want to do outside of the travel magazine, it took me a long time to come up with the idea for Spotify, the podcast, advertising type model, and then it takes took me a long time to actually come up with the idea for instant checkout. I mean, it was originally named quick Checkout, it's named instant checkout. Now, there's been loads of changes. I don't know. I think just figure it out. Again, just figure it as you go. Um, it's a hard one. Because if you don't know what you want to do, you don't know what you want to do. And then you kind of get overwhelmed in trying to find something that you want to do. But you still don't know what you want to do, you know? Yeah, no, no, Podcast Host 37:00 I think that's a fair enough answer, though, that like, it's kind of giving yourself permission or giving yourself time to figure out what your passion is. And that, you know, I said, I tend to say to students that it might not necessarily arrive overnight, like you might have the experience of the checkout. And that's like, the start of something, right? That's like the the interest or the Curiosity factor, like, Hey, this is weird. This is wrong. Like, if I was a merchant in this situation, like, I'd be really annoyed. And then like, you follow down that rabbit hole a little bit more and be like, I wonder if other people are having this issue. I wonder if other people are working at solving this? Yeah. Liam 37:35 And then it starts, like, snowball, and after a while, you look at competitors, even like, look at the buy now. Like pay later space. It's such a phrase at the moment, the two biggest players are afterpay and zippay. However, a company recently came along called line pay in their white labeling exactly what these guys do, and have been a massive hit. So yeah, it's don't always let your competitors success, either. Notice a space that's going crazy, and see if you can add something different or unique to it. Podcast Host 38:08 Absolutely. Well, Liam, it's been awesome having you on the top of the class podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your insights into instant Checkout, navigate Australia, your travel booking experience, and I hope students get in touch with you on LinkedIn, and learn a little bit more about your story.

#6 College Tips - The Future of US Sport Scholarships with Harvard Graduate, Bryan Moore

🗓 MAR 10, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Tips. In today's episode, Harvard graduate and Crimson Education strategist Bryan Moore, talks about us sports scholarships, we chat about the impact of COVID-19 on college sports, what prospective student athletes can do to improve their candidacy, and how academic performance can be more important than many students need. Let's chat with Bryan Moore. Hi, Bryan. Welcome to College Tips. It's fantastic to have you on today. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Bryan Moore 00:46 Yeah. Great to see you, Alex. So I went to Harvard and played on the lacrosse team. And while I was there, I was studying economics and psychology. So excited to talk a little bit about sports today. Podcast Host 00:59 Yeah, absolutely. And since then, you've been doing a fair bit of stuff at crimson. What's your current role at Crimson? Bryan Moore 01:04 Yeah, so I am a senior strategist and Strategy Team Lead. So I manage a team of traders that work with a lot of students, particularly based in China. Podcast Host 01:14 Fantastic, and you even lived a little while there. And now you're based in the US again, and you've survived COVID, which is great to say. And we can talk about sports, because I know that some sports have not survived COVID, what has been the state of play or not play as the case may be for sports scholarships and sports in general? In the US post COVID. Bryan Moore 01:37 Yeah, it has been pretty chaotic for a lot of student athletes and schools as well, a lot of teams getting canceled or having their team shut down. Obviously, you know, the debates about whether or not it's safe to play has been both an issue within schools and also in sort of the political sphere. You know, we've seen, you know, sports, like the NFL successfully have a full season, but you know, with a lot of risk to the to the player. So it's been challenging on a lot of dimensions so far in the past year. Podcast Host 02:04 And is there any sports in particular, or any schools in particular, whether it be the East Coast, West Coast, north south of the US that have been more affected than others? Bryan Moore 02:15 Yeah, so since COVID, obviously affected all parts of the US, I don't think there was a region that avoided anything. But we've saw, we saw mostly, you know, teams struggle to have seasons, and a lot of the sports that don't generate much or any revenue for school. So sports like tennis, golf, some soccer teams, and cross country and track have been particularly hit. But it has affected a lot of teams. And depending on the leagues that schools are playing, and we've seen some leagues choose to have seasons, and others choose to not do that. So it's been very fragmented throughout the last year. Podcast Host 02:51 Does it affect students who are already at college in terms of like their future at the at the college? Or they because they've got in for previous years or whatever? Like they're set no matter what? or could they potentially have their scholarship funding cut, because their team has been cut? Bryan Moore 03:08 Absolutely. So if your team is cut, or if you are cut from the team, in normal circumstances, you can lose your scholarship, if you if you're lucky enough to have one. So that is that that's definitely been a big source of concern for a lot of student athletes over this past year. Podcast Host 03:24 So what was the prospects of student athletes during this admission round? Was it notably different in terms of like, harder to get into a lot of places, but it was more competitive? Bryan Moore 03:36 I think we didn't necessarily see a ton of change in how competitive it was. Mostly because of how much uncertainty there was, throughout this whole last year, people didn't know what to expect. So most schools and most coaches sort of approached the process in a similar way. And then, but once we got to the actual application process and final decisions, it was it was definitely quite challenging for for a lot of students. You know, I had a student who was interested in going to a school and they cut that team, he was a rower from Australia. And so that was, you know, pretty disruptive. But, you know, I also had some success as well, with some of my athletes pursuing even the same sport even within rowing. You know, we saw some success. So I think the uncertainty was the was the hardest part for both for schools for players and for coaches over the past year. Podcast Host 04:24 And is there any sport that is like, above the cuts, I guess, you said, your revenue generating ones made basketball and football, they're like safe no matter what pretty much, is that correct? Bryan Moore 04:36 Yeah, it's interesting, you know, definitely they have been spared. And they've been the sports that have had the most games I think across you know, all divisions and all different conferences that have basketball and football. What's particularly interesting is that, you know, within American football in particular, a lot of these teams lose money. So even though they may generate revenue, they're considered a revenue sport. They still lose money for the school. And what I, what I find interesting about that is just the level to which these schools are feeling the need to invest in a robust athletic department to attract students to come, even non athletes to come to the school to have a more exciting or interesting campus atmosphere. So the effects of how sports teams can really change the whole environment for a school, it's clear that sports aren't going anywhere, even sports that may lose money, which is, I think, interesting thinking in the long term. Podcast Host 05:30 I've heard though, that Dartmouth is a rather unusual case, what exactly happened to Dartmouth to the sporting teams? Bryan Moore 05:37 So a quick story is that the school had decided that they were going to cut several teams using the excuse that because of COVID, there were budget shortfalls and that they needed to manage that budget. For a school like Dartmouth, you know, budget considerations usually aren't a problem. There's plenty of endowment, they can always find donors to pay for sports teams. So in the very beginning, you know, that wasn't, didn't seem to be the case, or the thing, the main decision that was driving and over time, it began to come out that there's been a lot of pressure, particularly at the most academic schools, places like Dartmouth to find a new center for the balance between academics and sports at schools. And so I think that a number of people used COVID, as an opportunity to rebalance that equation in the favor of the academics and the voices of academics at Dartmouth. And so when the shuffles sort of played out, we've seen those teams get reinstated, which has been very disruptive, that disruption has been, I think, epitomizes this past year in terms of the level of uncertainty and how decisions can be made, but then quickly turned around. But hopefully things will settle down there and get back to normal soon. Podcast Host 06:48 Right. Right. Okay, fair enough. And also, I want to know about the divisions and how they were affected, whether you know, your div one schools, were still very committed to going with the sporting teams and whatnot. But you div three, etc, perhaps, as you said, with the case of Dartmouth kind of saw that balance between academics and sport and was like this is a chance to kind of push things more to the academic side of things. So is there any difference in the divisions for universities and how they've been kind of coping with this and changing the arrangement of the sport? Bryan Moore 07:19 Sure, so one of the key differences between division one, Division Two and Division Three is that division one and two have scholarships or can offer scholarships, if they choose to do so, whereas Division Three is not able to do so. So that changes the budget pretty considerably for the different schools, what we've seen generally is essentially within division three schools a pause, so we're not going to make any decisions, we're not going to hire new coaches, we're not going to make too many new commitments to new athletes. And at the same time, we saw quite a lot of students taking gap years, so taking time away from school, to either work or just not study during an online learning environment. And so I think we sort of saw a freeze on most activity within division three. And so as COVID is lifted, you know, things will start to heat up. And so I think that that pause has not necessarily been reflected in other sports in another divisions where things are a bit more competitive, and the focus on winning is, is a lot higher. So a division three school can generally get away in most cases with skipping a recruitment class, or not bringing in the top athletic talent, because, you know, that's just not their number one priority. Whereas, you know, I think that within certain within money sports, and within most of division one, I think there's still been the continued pressure to find the athletes to bring into the school. But that still is been full of uncertainty this whole this whole time. And I think what we'll see is rosters that are pretty full, and perhaps over the next couple of years, you know, some cut back in terms of the number of scholarships available for certain sports in particular, as schools try to manage their budgets and, and manage the size of the team since that there are caps on those. Podcast Host 09:10 Yeah, I was going to ask the kind of crystal ball question, what do you see happening in the future? And, as I guess, COVID restrictions start to slowly lift across the US whether teams would ever get back to that full kind of like, what's crazy college campus type of vibe that, you know, when over here in Australia, when I look at the US and colleges, I think like sport crazy for a lot of them, which is, which is awesome. But do you think we'll ever get back to that kind of level? Bryan Moore 09:37 You know, it's hard to even imagine, you know, getting a crowd of 1000s of people and screaming very loudly, you know, right now, but I do think that, you know, in the long term, we're going to get back to some sense of normalcy, and we'll have pretty close to what we've experienced in the past. I think in terms of the long term changes, I don't think things will stay the same, but I think Those issues are more around collective bargaining energy that's existed in past years anti trust considerations against the NCAA, some of the rules have been changes around amateurism that happened in the last year in allowing players to actually make money off of their name. I think some of those changes are likely to accelerate that we've seen in you know, in other areas of other industries and other parts of the world where COVID is sort of accelerated movement that we've seen, I think those things are likely to happen. And so that may have some changes to how sports exists in the United States. But I don't think that we'll be missing out on you know, the the rowdy games that that we've all come to love. Podcast Host 10:39 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm also interested in the impacts of the LSAT, the dropping of required exams, essentially, for students across the board. Is that still applying to athletes? Do they not have to sit the SAT anymore as well? Bryan Moore 10:54 Yeah, so that was actually quite interesting. We did see, you know, a lot of requirements be lifted for for a lot of schools across the US. Of course, there were some exceptions to that. And we are expecting that this year, we will continue to see some version of reduced requirements for testing. What was interesting, though, was schools that particularly care a lot about academic so schools within the Ivy's in particular, we did see requirements around testing, despite the fact that you didn't have an admissions requirement to to have an SAE score, for example, in order to be recruitable athlete you did. So in actually some cases, it was pretty much the same, and that they expected a lot of athletes to have already taken those tests. And that makes some sense, because within the Ivy's, you have to beat certain academic requirements in order to be a recruitable athlete. And the department as a whole needs to have on a relative basis compared to the other students in the school have to be within a certain band. And so in order to meet those Ivy League requirements, they did keep testing. So we'll see, I think how they're able to deal with, I think, a broad momentum towards fewer testing requirements. But I would expect to see that persist in the short and probably in the medium term as well. Podcast Host 12:12 Right? So basically, across the board, no matter which University you're applying to, if you're an athlete, you still have to sit some form of SAT, is that correct? Bryan Moore 12:20 I would say yes, I think that there will be certain there will certainly be exceptions to that. But but it helps to expand your opportunities, if you're able to get a really good test score, something that, you know, sticks out, that's definitely an advantage. In addition to that sports scholarships make up, you know, obviously, that's the thing that gets all the attention. But many athletes get a considerable amount of their your scholarship money actually based on their academic scholarship. So you can have both an athletic and an academic scholarship. In many cases, the academic scholarships actually worth more than your athletic scholarship. So having really strong test scores, having really strong grades in your school, these will be things that will make you both more recruitable for all schools, and will also give you the opportunity to have more money is one more thing on on having access to that academic money is that makes you much more attractive to coaches, even for schools that are not in a top 50. You know, US News and World Report rankings. The reason for this is, it's much easier for coaches to get access to that academic money, because that's not coming out of a preset amount of cash that they have available to them. Right. So you know, if you're able to get access to some of that academic money, that can free up additional sports specific money that the coach can then give to somebody else. So makes you a very attractive recruit if you're able to bring both the sport and the academic side? Podcast Host 13:44 Yeah, well, I was going to ask in the situation of say, like a year 10 student here in Australia, like 1516 years old, who is a gifted athlete at say, a couple of different sports, there was always one of those kids in any school, right? You know, like those man child's that kind of developed early and whatnot. I mean, I got to 167 centimeters and stuff growing for people in the US that's basically not very tall. And so for the students in that situation, who are saying, yep, you know, a US college, I want that to be my future. How could they strengthen their candidacy over the final years of their high school? Should they be focusing more on the academics? Should they be focusing more on a particular sport that is perhaps recruitable at a higher percentage rate? Like? Should they focus on other extracurriculars that are related to their sport, but might be more community focused, for instance, like what can athletes in that kind of 15 to 16 age bracket, who haven't yet got a letter from a university? Because I know some universities do reach out quite early these days, but who haven't heard from university yet? What could they be doing to kind of tailor their application in those last couple of years ago? Bryan Moore 14:53 Sure. So I think to generalize things first and then and then I guess we can talk in the specifics, but No, I think the first thing to understand or to ask yourself, if you're a student, or something that I might ask you, if I were to talk to you as a student, is, what is it really that you're looking for? For me when I was in high school, I had this vision for having this even split between academics and athletics. And I wanted to really maximize both of those things at the same time. And so that gave me a very clear sense and gave me some specific universities to target, you know, my first list of schools that I was interested in, you know, it was like, 35 schools long. So I had a very clear sense of exactly what I was looking to do in 35, schools is quite a bit, but it gave me some place to start. So I think asking yourself, you know, what are those priorities for you, since those will be different, some students really care about the athletic experience, and that's the only reason that they want to go, maybe they want to go pro in their sport, or something like that. Other students, you know, they want to leverage their athletic talent to get into a really good school, that's quite different. Some students are a bit more in between. So understanding that question, I think is, is quite important. And then you can essentially apply that same logic to other areas of your life. You know, while even though I was an athlete and went the recruitment route myself, you know, there were plenty of other things that I was very heavily involved in, a lot of the things that I loved, the most were sport related, I was coaching, I was mentoring and doing a variety of different things within my sport. But you know, I had access to that I had the right network of people around me to get access to those kinds of opportunities to involve myself different ways. So I'd be thinking about opportunities like that. So you know, we shouldn't be thinking, Okay, well, the only thing I need to do is play my sport, you know, we do need to have some breadth and some variety, an easy place to start is, who are the people that I know? What are the other opportunities within my sport, that aren't necessarily playing, that I could get involved in? And that can start to open up new opportunities and new interests of yours as well. Podcast Host 16:59 Right, fantastic. And then, of course, the academic side of things like you should still kind of study for that SAT, right? Bryan Moore 17:05 Absolutely. There's really nothing better for coaches than to know right off the bat, that they're not going to have any challenge with admissions with you and your candidacy. If you can take that off their mind and have them feel very confident that you are going to be a really good fit for them, then that's a huge sigh of relief that they can feel doesn't really matter what level you're targeting. If you're targeting the very most academic schools, it's just as important to give coaches that comfort that you will be able to handle the academics of whatever school you're targeting. Otherwise, they're not going to waste waste their time. There's too many other great hardworking athletes out there that want that spot, too. And so they need to prioritize. And if you've got the academics, it makes it that much easier on them. Podcast Host 17:46 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm interested also, in your role a little bit more specifically, in terms of helping prospective student athletes, what kind of problems or pain points are you typically solving throughout the recruitment process, and even you know, slightly before that, for students who are aiming to go to the US? Bryan Moore 18:03 Sure. So I guess I've seen a variety of different cases from students who, you know, have just picked up a new sport and are just beginning to realize that they really love it. And deciding through that whole process that they do want to go for, go to be recruited. One of my students this past year was that case, he became a rower, had never done that before. And just this past year, was admitted into Columbia, which was an amazing result for him, and so was able to, you know, hit all of his his goals for both his burgeoning love of his sport and also his academic passions. So I think, you know, I've seen those kinds of cases. And I've seen students who are very late in the process, who don't understand how to navigate it, but you know, that they want to, you know, that they have this goal of playing sports at a higher level. So I think it really, there's, there's quite a lot of variety. Generally speaking, a lot of my students have been based outside of the United States. So the challenges that they tend to face are having to do with you know, the physical distance, the fact that a lot of coaches aren't able to watch them in person play. That's that's a big challenge. And then I think just the the communication and with how I communicate, and when do I communicate, I think are big challenges for students. It can be really intimidating talking to these people who you perhaps idolize or, or want to have them respect you and think that you are valuable to them. That can be pretty challenging, regardless of whether you're in the States or abroad. I think navigating those those uncertainties and identifying what schools I should be targeting in my recruitment process those I guess the big questions that I tend to see a lot. Podcast Host 19:40 Yeah, because it is really weird for student athletes, I guess because they are the as I understand it, the only people through the college admissions process who pretty much directly communicating with the gatekeeper on the other side, right that if they're in communication with the coach, and the coach is either going to give them a yay or nay like that can be the gate. able to then get into college and even to get a scholarship or not. Whereas the majority of students are doing majority of their communication through their personal statement or their essay. That must be a very, very delicate process when you are picking when and what to say to any number of coaches. And I know that I think I heard that Tessa, who's one of the other sports strategists at crimson, she said, like, never tell someone, like do a coach, because it just shows that you've probably templated an email and you're spamming it out to a whole lot of people if you're not personalizing it. Is it that kind of nitpicky, generally speaking? Bryan Moore 20:34 Absolutely. The coach that I eventually played for his last name was logik. And so that was always a really tough one to try to spell. And I had to double check it three or four times, because that was that was always scary to send those emails. But yeah, absolutely. You know, particularly when you're, you know, let's say, your 10th grade dine, you know, students, you've never really sent emails or serious emails before to people, you know, that can be pretty intimidating. And so knowing whether I'm saying the right thing, if I'm saying enough, if I'm saying too much, I think that's always a concern. Generally speaking, most of my students don't say enough. And so you know, we have to encourage them to communicate more proactively, and communicate more than just, you know, sports related updates, as coaches want to see whole people, people that will bring, you know, a lot of different dimensions to the team on a both an athletic and also a personality basis, having a interesting group of teammates is a recruiting tool for coaches. So you know, if you can have more interesting, more thoughtful, more, better athletes on your team that's gonna make you a more attractive for future students to come to as well. So being the full picture of the full student in this process is, is important. And finding ways to communicate that whether it's via zoom or you know, via email can be pretty challenging. Podcast Host 21:51 And I also have the question of when students should start this process, because I know that that's often bandied around, and parents are like, my child is only like, 1415. They love their sport, but we're not quite sure whether they're going to continue with it in the next couple of years as academics start ramping up at school. What are your general views on like the age to start thinking about or not just thinking about but possibly taking action into the college recruitment process? Bryan Moore 22:17 Sure. So I grew up around a lot of people who were thinking about this, my high school was known for having a lot of student athletes going to phenomenal schools, you know, I have friends who are in the NFL. So pretty, pretty strong school, and a lot of people around me wanted to go through this process. So I was lucky in the sense that I had, I had that awareness around me. And I think that that's probably what's lacking most or why people start too late, is that they lack the awareness of what the process might look like. And so the people around them aren't thinking about it aren't talking about it, they therefore think Well, okay, I guess I don't have to think about it either. So I would definitely say that it tends to be the case that people start too late. Obviously, you know, there's definitely opportunities to start too early, right? When you're, you know, still in elementary school, that's too early to be, you know, focusing on this. But now, once you, I think, are taking ownership of your own athletic development, you know, you're the one that's you know, going to the gym, you're getting the extra reps in practice, you're the one who really wants that. And you've decided that you're going to put that level of effort in, I think, at that point, you can be thinking about college for me what that Mark was around eighth grade or a year nine. So that's when I realized, and that's actually when I made my first school list was around that time to to know that I had some goals, and I wanted to start working towards them from there, then it's just surrounding yourself with great people, great coaches, and a plan to eventually get seen, but that stuff takes time. So it's good to start early, I think certainly earlier than most people think. Podcast Host 23:48 Yeah, exactly. And I think for parents as well, like it's a, it's a bit of a challenge, because that the you Well, I don't want to burden my child with more pressure. But really, like if you leave it too late, that's when the pressure really starts kicking in. Like, if you're going to have any kind of chance of doing this, you need to kind of spread that pressure over as many years as possible. And as you said, you know, put that plan in place as early as possible. Is there any final advice that you would give to students and or parents who are prospective student athletes? Who are, you know, perhaps kind of thinking, Oh, you know, is the US ever going to be the same for college sports, these kinds of things? What advice would you give them as they move forward to next couple of years and hopefully aiming for that college recruitment? Bryan Moore 24:29 Sure. So I think I think in over the last year with with COVID, I've heard both from athletes and non athletes, this sort of sense that I can't do anything or there's nothing I can do about the fact that I can't go outside or there are opportunities that otherwise were there for me. I think that that's obviously both, you know, it's both true and in some ways, but it also is, I think, it also opens up the opportunity to be that person who solves that problem and to be the person that you know, is able to find a creative way to To pursue whatever their goals are, whether that's athletic or otherwise. And so thinking about getting creative about solving, you know, that challenge, whatever it is for you that, that you're sort of most frustrated by or that you feel like that you can't solve, that's the one that, that you should focus on trying to address in your life, because that's going to be the one that is going to give you the most bang for your buck in terms of that effort that you'll put in. So, you know, if you if you are an athlete listening to this, and that means that, you know, all of those traits that you're learning in practice, you know, how to be a leader, you know, how to persevere through, you know, pain are tough challenges, you know, apply those skills or, you know, in other areas, right, if there's some initiative going on at your school that that you're interested in, but you know, otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to take part in because that's what you normally have practice, now's the time to take advantage of those kinds of opportunities. And so you know, if you can lean forward through this, as difficult as it is, you know, obviously, it is very challenging. But if you can find a way to push through that you're going to be much further along than the most of your peers will be. And you'll build that lead and be in a great position to take advantage of whatever goals are in front of you, whether that's the admissions process or some other challenge that you want to tackle. Podcast Host 26:17 Perfect. Well, Bryan, it's been awesome chatting all about sports, I always learn a thing or two chatting with our lovely strategists from all around the world. And you are no exception to that rule for students or parents who will listen to this, there will be a link in the show notes if you'd like to work with someone like Bryan, on an application to the US or the UK or wherever you have in mind. But obviously, if you're aiming for sports, you're probably better off aim for the US. But Bryan, it's been awesome chatting and enjoy the rest of your day there in the US. Bryan Moore 26:44 Great to see you Alex. Thanks for having me on. Podcast Host 26:46 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#37 Cryptos, Gamestop and Getting a Finance Internship in Year 10

🗓 MAR 6, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:04 I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with 15 year old Dubai student, Aryaansh. Aryaansh has just recently completed a three month internship at one of the world's biggest banks, JP Morgan. We chat about how we got the internship, his views on Gamestop and cryptocurrencies, and what students can do in high school to get a head start on a career in finance. Let's chat with Aryaansh. Hi Aryaansh, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it is awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Aryaansh 00:51 Good afternoon, Alex. Thanks for having me on. So I'm 15 years old, and I am a Year 10 student in Dubai. And basically, you know, for the last year or so I've been building my entire life around finance and entrepreneurship. And basically, it's using, you know, the intersection of these two worlds to explore myself a little more. And I've been working on a bunch of side projects that not only benefit me, but benefit those around me. And I think it's really awesome, you know that I can create things that have a real world impact on people close to me. Podcast Host 01:21 Perfect. Well, just to give people a bit of context here, I actually connected with you on LinkedIn. And I played a little bit of a game with my oldest brother. And it was guest the age of the person who is posting this content. And it was one of your posts regarding financial Bitcoin, whatever it is, like you do some really impressive posts on LinkedIn. And my brother had a rate of it. And he was like, oh, Jason, pretty good analysis here. I'm going to get this person's like late 20s, early 30s. I'm like, 'he's 15!'. And my brother was like, 'Oh, my God, that's crazy'. And then, you know, setting up the interview, I said, oh, what's your email? And your email Is that one finance nerd, right? So when you say you're basing your life around finance and entrepreneurship, you really do mean it. Why finance and entrepreneurship, what really drew you to getting so involved in the world of finance? Aryaansh 02:14 It was practically a stroke of luck. So two years back, you know, we had an email pop up in our school email inbox, and it was regarding the stock market challenge. And you know, at that time, I knew nothing about the stock market, I just knew was reserved for rich people. So I decided to sign up. And we were given $100,000, of initial capital to invest as we clicked. And, you know, I was like, Oh, my God, $100,000. That's a lot of money. So I just had to play around a little bit, you know, investing in names I knew. And you know, this was all virtual. So it gave me a good flavor of the markets. And then, yeah, I think he was really the adrenaline that you see, whenever the stock tickers jump up or down, or, you know, the fact that you can do your own analysis on the market. And that can actually affect how well you do. I think that's what really drew me to it. And then I realized, wait a minute, this finance thing seems kind of fun. So I contacted one of my family members, who's a fund manager at fidelity. And he basically set me up with a bunch of books to read. So one thing really about me is that I love to learn, as in, you know, read a book article podcast, I love to take in information, whenever I'm not doing something. So you know, it gave me a bunch of books to kind of keep me busy. And you know, once I read them, I kind of got really more intrigued into, you know, not only stock market, but how there is a certain code to making money, and there's a certain code to how the world works. And it all revolves around this concept of money. And it's just like, how you manage it, and how the world manages it. And I think that really intrigues me towards, you know, something to do with economics and finance as a career. Podcast Host 03:50 In terms of the books that you were recommended, what kind of books were they? And are there any titles that you recall, and said, like that one that really made a difference for me. Aryaansh 04:01 So you know, whenever you search out how to invest in the stock market, you keep getting hit by these three names, the Intelligent Investor, and there's a few others, but but I think they're amazing reads. So I got recommended a bunch of books by this investor called Peter Lynch. And he actually managed, you know, Fidelity Investments Magellan fund, and he had one of the best track records as a fund manager. And I found that really interesting. So I was, like, you know, quite a lot to learn. So, the two books that I feel always have, you know, helped me learn the most, one up on Wall Street and beating the street. So big link to wall street there. However, I think it's very interesting because, you know, once you look into the mindset of someone who has, you know, in the auto of these market cycles, you know, the stock market dips, big stock market corrections. It's really interesting to see that, you know, these people don't invest, you know, like the other shopping spree. It's, you know, very careful. They do their analysis very well. And each of them has a very eccentric style of investing. And I think what's really cool is that, you know, you can invite these qualities into yourself. And then Apart from that, I think, you know, the internet's been amazingly helpful to me, in terms of, you know, actually inhaling this content. So there have been these awesome courses and podcasts that I've been listening to, that just helped me get a good flavor of how you know, the financial world is moving. Podcast Host 05:26 Okay, so you're enjoying the motivation that you got from the game that you played. And just to be clear, that was like $100,000, pretend money, not real money. And, and, for me, I played a similar game when I was in high school as well. But like, I didn't go on with it, because I think I got kind of bored looking at the numbers, and it just seemed to go up and down. And I didn't really know too much about the work that you could put in to make a more informed choice. And it sounds like for you that that's the kind of switch that made you more interested in the investing side of things. Like, once you start knowing that the more analysis you put in, the better your choices are going to be. And the more apps you'll get the downs, is that the kind of like game that you're playing, that you're kind of trying to, I guess, learn so much that you can outsmart the stock market? I mean, Well, technically, Aryaansh 06:18 yes. Like, you know, the short story is, yes. However, the long story is that, you know, it's like, you know, the house always wins kind of thing. So what I've been trying to do is trying to find companies and trying to find, you know, opportunities that I can quickly make use of as a needle trading on momentum. So, you know, let's say a company is coming out with brilliant earnings, what I do is I buy the stock, and I just wait two weeks for the earnings kind of frenzy to pass, and then I'd sell the stock, because brilliant earnings means that people are gonna, you know, believe that the company is gonna make more money going out, and that was the stocks gonna go up. So it's just, you know, instances like these event based investing, Podcast Host 06:57 Now, a lot of people would say, you need to have money to make money. So if you don't mind me asking, Where did you find the money originally to start investing in the stock market? Aryaansh 07:08 So actually, originally, it wasn't my own money. So I pulled together a bunch of friends. And we decided to set up a signals group. And how signals group works is that, you know, one person sitting there, and He's the owner of the group. And what he does is he independently does his own stock analysis. And maybe, you know, he looks for a bunch of stock charts, and comes up with a bunch of trade ideas. And these trade ideas are ones that he would use himself to make himself money. So what he does is, he goes to the bunch of people in his signals group, and he just gives them the trade idea for a small fee. And it's these small fees, or these small commissions that slowly add up and end up you know, profiting him as well. Podcast Host 07:45 Were you the signals guy? Aryaansh 07:47 Yes, with the three, four of my friends. And then obviously, I transitioned to working on a bigger project with a few other people. Podcast Host 07:54 So you're like the guy giving out the stock tips for a fee, Yahoo consultant in a way, like a new financial consultant, and so your clients were other students? Aryaansh 08:06 Other students, Yes, Podcast Host 08:08 So just within your school, or from the wider Dubai area? Aryaansh 08:10 Oh, no, just within my school. Podcast Host 08:12 Okay. So like, you've got a uni level, that's pretty keen on stock investing, or they're keen on it, if they know someone else is going to do the work for them? Aryaansh 08:20 Precisely. I mean, if that's the kind of thing, you're taking all of this stress on their shoulders, and it went really well, you know, the good thing is they will my friends. So you know, there was a degree of understanding between us, but it was really interesting to see, you know, people are refreshing their stock screens every two seconds reacting to little dips, little gains. And, you know, I found it pretty interesting, just to see as in not only from a psychological thing, but from behavioral thing as in, you know, how people respond to making money. Podcast Host 08:48 Yeah. Now, you don't have to give all your tricks right now. But what are some of the strategies that you like to use, when you're investing in the stock market? I know a lot of people are more like the buy the the solid stocks, hold them for, you know, 10 plus years, and then save them appreciate over that length of time. But I guess when you're 15 years old, you don't really want to be thinking 10 years ahead. So what are some of your strategies for that shorter term investments. Aryaansh 09:14 So, you know, I'm really glad that you brought this point up. And I'm not going to get I'm not going to get very technical with this. But you can get a little technical, Podcast Host 09:23 You can get a little technical, don't be afraid to flex your knowledge a bit. Aryaansh 09:26 So this these indicators, this indicator called the relative strength index, and it basically shows buying momentum versus selling momentum of a stock. And it condenses all that information into this really nice number. And you can use this number to do a lot of things. So there's basically two barriers really, there's an A so you know, ranges from zero to 100. And once it gets to 20, that basically means there's been so much selling pressure on the stock that is bound to go up. And once it gets to 80 there's so much buying pressure on it that it's about to go down. So obviously it's just it's just a Nice indicator of how whether stocks can be moving in the short term, then along with this, what I've done is I've been developing algorithm. So how it works is, you know, you can call it high frequency trading HFT. And how it works is the algorithm buys and sells stocks much, much faster than your I could, as in you know, you know, let's say it spots a certain price discrepancy from one market to another. And what it does is it buys a stock from one sells it at another. And that's called arbitrage. Another thing that this robot does is Well, I mean, I had to develop it myself. And another thing it does is, you know, it gathers insider information. So as an information from people inside the company, and basically sees their stock buying patterns. And, you know, I there's a bunch of math formulas involved. But how it works is it condenses all of this activity. And once again, it puts it into a nice number. And that gives me like an insider sentiment or an insider confidence rating of a stock. And you know, based on this insider confidence rating, I decide whether to buy or sell, because you know, it's the people inside the company that know best about what's happening with the company. Then there's this other technical kind of analysis to dive that a friend of mine and I developed called Brownian motion. And Brownian motion is actually the random movement of particles. So we just leave it like that, because we thought it'd be funny. But how it works is there's a bunch of moving averages and moving averages are basically smoothed out averages of the way a stock price is looking. And we use these averages to find out things called support and resistance levels. And a support level is basically a price level at which the stock just won't go down. As in, you know, once it gets to that price, it is just too cheap for people not to buy. And the same way a resistance level is, you know, a price high enough that people like okay, this is too expensive is going to go down. So you know, we use that kind of we use these technicals to just get a good idea of where stocks gonna be in the next week or so. Podcast Host 11:58 Now, couple of questions. I love what you're doing. I think that's awesome. The algorithm to buy and sell quickly, the high frequency trading, is there not a brokerage cost on those kinds of things. I'm kind of like half asking for myself here Havasu for our listeners, of course. But you know, like for people who have invested before, usually, like if you invest with a bank or something like that, like you invest through a bank, I should say, you pay like a fairly high brokerage costs on any trade. So that's like to even make the trade. They'll say, well, you got to pay us 30 bucks just to make the trade whatever it is. And is that something that comes up in age of tea? Or are you how are you doing it? Aryaansh 12:36 So one thing that I really like to outline here is that for the last two, three years, we've seen brokerages like Robin Hood, on the rise, and they offer commission free investing as zero commissions to buy or sell stocks, you can buy as much as you want. They don't charge you anything. And I think you know, how it works is and these commission free brokerages basically have the potential to wipe out all of the traditional brokerages that charge you pretty hefty fees on buying or selling stocks. Think about it, you know, the average person isn't ready to pay a $30 Commission on a $50 stock. Because that's just exorbitant. And I think you know, what's really interesting is how the rise of Robin Hood and the actual kind of gamification of investing, let's call it that has really led to the whole GameStop saga that we've seen happening over the past month. So when I use my HFT bot, I don't trade it on stocks, I trade, foreign exchange. So foreign exchange is currencies, how many euros can I get for $1? How many Swiss francs can I get for a Euro? That kind of thing. Podcast Host 13:39 Right. Okay, and is that performing? Well, because I'm going to guess that that's not the first algorithm out there that is trying to predict foreign currency exchange rates and how to make you know that arbitrage that difference on each trade, like I'm going to guess there's a lot of maths involved. And there'd be some people developing like really good ones. And some people developing not so good ones how's yours doing? Aryaansh 14:03 Mines doing pretty well. I mean, the purposes that mine serves a really short term. And, you know, obviously, I don't have the infrastructure to make it a massive operation. And I need to do I plan to because the truth is that, you know, you've got these massive investment banks, massive trading firms, you know, that can execute at speeds you literally can't imagine. So there's this really nice book I read called flash boys, and basically a firm paid, I think it was excess of $50 million to lay fiber optic cable straight through mountain instead of taking the obvious route that was right around it. And you know, it's this so there's like a difference, you know, a 1.5 millisecond difference color should be what changes between $10 million dollars and $1 million. And I think, you know, that kind of speed. us any individual person like me just could never match up to Podcast Host 14:55 Okay, but it's still a pretty cool thing that you'll be paying years old and have to go The narrow rhythm to trade foreign currencies? And where did you learn to create an algorithm like that? Is it something that you learned on YouTube through computer science courses? Like, how do you go about that? Aryaansh 15:11 So one beautiful thing about 2021 is that you can get any information you want for absolutely no cost via the internet, it's just that you've got to know where to look. And what I did was, you know, I started with some really basic courses on Python. And Python is the language that I use for majority of my algorithm writing and execution. And basically, most of this was done by YouTube courses. And via, you know, individual boot camps that were done for free. I didn't spend anything on learning how to make these robots. It's all a result of researching on the internet and reading as much as I can. Talking to a bunch of people in the industry is always helpful, I'd say. And LinkedIn is an amazing tool for this. So I'd say harness like it was just a combination of three of those would be, it'll go a long way to fortifying your skills there. Podcast Host 16:01 Yeah. So Python, and then I guess, knowing what you want the bot to do, right? Or what you want the algorithm to do, and then plugging it into your computer, right, so it can recognize the the movements going up and down and making those trades. That's pretty awesome. I think that's pretty cool. And then you've got the the Brownian motion, right. And with that, I'm going to guess that, you know, the the random movements of particles, as you said, the whole GameStop thing, as you said, was like a pretty crazy thing for people in the game of stock markets would have been a bit surprised by that, because it pretty much threw out all the rule books, can you sum up GameStop situation in an easy to understand way? Aryaansh 16:39 Okay, so let's start with this really nice monkey analogy. So you know, let's say, I'm a monkey, and I have a banana. And the banana right now is priced at $10. And, you know, at the end of the day, the banana is still a banana, however, I feel that the price, the value of the banana is going to go down. So what I do is, you know, I go to my good buddy, Alex, and I asked to borrow, you know, a banana that he has, and I immediately sell it on the market. And now I'm holding $10. So you know, say two months past, and the actual value of that banana has decreased to $1. So what I do is, I buy the banana back from those $10 that I got when I initially sold the banana, and I returned the banana back to Alex. So Alex has what he gave me in the first place, and I have a nice profit margin of $9. Right. So this is how shorting a stock works and how, you know, it's basically boring shares, immediately selling them and buying them back later for cheap. And that's, you know, what are key principles you need to understand when realizing, you know, what happened with GameStop. So GameStop is a physical concrete video game retailer, and you know, the COVID pandemic killed, like quite literally kill them. So a lot of hedge funds gotta be good idea to short the stock, that basically means they borrow shares that are really expensive right now, but are going to decline in value, because the companies are going to be making any money. So they borrow the shares. So they borrow the shares, and they immediately sell them. And now they're holding this money, and they want to buy it back later, at a really cheap price. So they started shorting so many shares, that at one point, they somehow exploited a bunch of loopholes, and they manage to borrow shares that did not exist, which is illegal. So a bunch of people on Reddit decided it would be a good idea to try to squeeze these investors. So let's get back to the banana analogy. Now, you know, say I'm holding this banana, and suddenly, the price goes up to $20. Now, suddenly, that's a problem for me, because now I have to buy the banana back for much, much more than I paid for it. And that way, it's going to benefit Alex, because he's holding something that is now worth double what it originally was. And if you recall, I have to buy the banana back. And it's like supply and demand. If I buy more, the price is going to go up, because producers feel that they can sell more. And that's what happened in GameStop. So lots of people tried to buy the stock, and the stock price went up and the hedge funds were like, Oh, no, I'm losing money. And they had to buy back more shares. And they kept on buying it, they kept on buying. And the price slowly went from, you know, a low of like, $2.50 to I think its peak was $483. So you know, it was really crazy. Podcast Host 19:22 What does that tell you about the future of trading? And like the future of algorithms that are used to predict the stock market? Can people still use those kind of algorithms? Can people use kind of old school analysis to predict something like this? Or is this I think, throughout the rule book, in many ways, because a lot of people were saying that no one could have predicted this. It was purely like a user Reddit based kind of revolt of the people rising up against the hedge fund managers. Aryaansh 19:52 Absolutely. And I think I think you know, that's one really important thing to note here is that we saw the revolution, not only in the way that people invest, but in the way that you know how the market is rigged to benefit the wealthy people, as in, you know, these hedge fund guys, they somehow managed to borrow shares that didn't even exist. And you know, that obviously infuriated a lot of people who are, you know, surviving off of stimulus checks kind of thing. And I think, you know, actually, one interesting thing to note here is that the HFT bots, the frequency trading bots, ended up making a lot lot more money, just because of the fact that the stock was so volatile. And since these guys trade very, very short term, as in, you know, the luxury they have is that they can put a million dollars in stock, when it's at $1, and take it up when it's at $1.01 and have a $10,000 profit. But a normal investor just can't do that normally, investor doesn't have the money, a normal investor doesn't have the time, and doesn't have the speed to keep watching that trend. And, you know, I think what it's done is it's really shaken up the notion that the stock market is reserved for people, you know, with massive pools of money, and I think it's gonna attract a lot more people. However, one thing that I'm really thinking about is that there are going to be people who, you know, like the hedge fund managers, they have a lot of money to invest, but an individual investor, he has to invest, say, his daughter's college fund. And if that goes upside, that could obviously not be very good for him. So it's just your nuances like that, that I think will end up obviously, being a bad political guy. Podcast Host 21:29 Yeah, I remember seeing a great quote, actually, that said, the fee of missing out the FOMO of missing the boat on the next big, you know, GameStop, the next Bitcoin, the next Apple, the next, you know, whatever, the FOMO around, that is a greater driver for people to enter the stock market, then the risk of losing money, the main risk is missing out, not losing money, which is a weird way of thinking about it. But I think at the moment, there's probably more stories of the rocket ship to the moon type of stuff, like desktop, and Bitcoin and people making millions off the market, which is bringing all these people to the stock market and to kryptos and whatnot. I'm gonna throw another one out there, actually Dogecoin which has been absolutely, like Dogecoin has gone up like 1000s and 1000s of percent. And for people who follow Elon Musk on Twitter and have been asking themselves, like, what the hell is he tweeting about when he keeps talking about Dogecoin and whatnot, he's talking about crypto. And you know, people have made millions of dollars off this crypto not too many, but a couple people have made millions of dollars off this crypto. And it was really just it felt like a crypto based on a community but it didn't really serve any purpose as far as I can. Exactly. It was purely just like by Dogecoin to be a part of this stupid major type of thing. Aryaansh 22:55 Like exactly that all about. So you know, the actual cryptocurrency was made because of a meme that came around, and it was about this Doge dog. I'm pretty sure you've seen the face. The Shiba Inu. Yes. Yep. It's that it's someone made it this and you know, anyone can virtually set up their own cryptocurrency so someone was like, might as well do it. Dogecoin is a thing now. And you know, this happened, I think seven years back. So this is when crypto was really fledgling. And, you know, everything was really new. Someone was like, might as well make it as a joke. And, you know, that's how it had been ever since. But then GameStop happened and people were like, Okay, I'm trying to find some more assets. I can YOLO my money are in YOLO. You only live once. So you know, take a lot of risk on it and just go all in. So someone was like, oh, Dogecoin and Elon Musk. He's, you know, kind of, he tries to keep up with the trend. You know, he's post memes on his Twitter account. He's just really active that in that kind of sense. So what he decided to do was, he decided to post a single tweet that said much Wow, and uch who W and, you know, the Shiba Inu meme was that it speaks you know, really broken English. And, and, you know, Elon tweeted and I was like, Oh, no, Dogecoin And on that day, the price went up, I think 270% and, you know, you've got people you know, who've just put a $5,000 in this a while back thinking I might as well as it's just just as a joke. And you know, they come back and it just blew their investments balloon. Podcast Host 24:25 You know what I got on that as well. I was like, after GameStop I realized that the stock market has so many who is not willing to do the analysis, not willing to put in the work and just want to be on the next rocket ship to the moon. And when Ilan Musk is championing this dough coin and then Snoop Dogg and like all these other celebrities and stuff getting getting on board as well. I thought, you know what, I didn't put in too much money, but I've put in just enough to make it interesting. You know, it's one of those funny, it's a really funny time to be an investor. It definitely feels very much removed from The days of like, you know, Warren Buffett going to the store and trying things out and, you know, going through the analysis and looking at the costs and that kind of thing, it seems like a more fun way to invest. But in your view, is it a good strategy to be investing in fun things, or is long term profits going to come from from putting in the work? Aryaansh 25:21 I think what we saw right now, I had a really good conversation with someone on LinkedIn the other day, and they said, you know, retail investors have made a mockery of the public markets. And I agree with that statement. To an extent, this is the first thing we've ever seen of this style, individual investors trading the stock market. However, I still feel that it is not a good thing in the long run, because, you know, these are people who are putting money and change their lives into investments. And what I feel that's going to contribute to is, you know, if they lose that money, what now, right? And, you know, these people on very educational the risks of what could happen if their investments, you know, go the other way, and they're in it for the joke, and what now, but literally, so I think I think, you know, people have had that fun, but I really think it's time to move on. Because the house always wins, there is always going to be someone who has more information than someone who is faster than you someone who has more experienced than you. And it's the same thing in the stock market. And what people don't realize is that it's that it's these little advantages that add up. And I think, you know, it's all gonna come tumbling down, you know, we've been like pumping this balloon to its very limit. So I have a feeling, you know, it's quite like a bubble right now. You know, you've got electric vehicle stocks going all the way. And, you know, we actually saw it a while back tech stocks had their worst day, I think, for the last 100 days, the US Treasury bonds hiked their prices up by, you know, obviously very high price. It was like 50 basis points in one day, and people got really scared, and tech stocks, took it on the chin. And, you know, it's this kind of cascade, really, that I think can not only shake up the financial sector as is, but could shake up people's lives. Podcast Host 27:11 Yeah, now you've made entering the stock market or any kind of investing sound, I guess, a bit more realistic in the view that it is a bit riskier than a lot of people think that it's not necessarily a joke. And, you know, you've got to take this kind of seriously. So for students who are listening, and who perhaps have an interest in the stock market, but don't have any money in it yet, what should they do? Or what questions should they be asking themselves? What reading should they be doing? before they start putting money in the direction of the stock market and hoping for the best? Aryaansh 27:41 That's actually really good question. And one thing I'd really like to outline is only invest as much as you're able to lose. So you know, invest as much money as if you lost it the next day as if it evaporated, you'll be perfectly fine with it, it wouldn't have any impact on your life. And I think that's key to understanding how it's not good to get emotionally attached to the stuff you investigate, because price fluctuations happen all the time. And it is definitely not going to help if you're the one refreshing the screen every two seconds, and you know, start crying or start celebrating over little dips in the price. So what I'd really like to think about, everyone listening to think about is, if you're investing in something, only invest in something you can understand. So Peter Lynch, actually the first book I ever read one up on Wall Street, he said, you know, if you cannot explain the idea of the business to a five year old, don't invest in it, they have this company with, you know, a bunch of axes in their name. And it's like x laboratories, and they produced wafer silicone chips for micro optical scanning, you know, really complicated stuff. But if you don't understand the product at its core, you shouldn't go there. You know, which is why, like you said, as well, you know, you'd hold on to a good stock for 10 years, and wait for it to pay its dividends, which would appreciate over the time. And I think that strategy, like it or not, that kind of strategy always wins. And it's like, you know, not to listen to your emotions too much, because there was this good post I saw on Wall Street bets as well. The most important stock you have is your brain, and don't let it fall apart due to a gambling addiction. And, you know, once you see all of this, you know, theoretical money pop up on the screen, once the stock prices go up, you know, you get happy and once it goes down, you get sad. And I think if you've given to your emotions too much, that can kind of don't need to investments just getting derailed, but your life as a whole. Podcast Host 29:34 That's some really good advice. And I always say to students, like if you're going to be learning about anything, learn about investing, because it's a skill you should have for the rest of your life. You're not going to make your fortune. Well, the majority of people are not going to make their fortune through a job. They're going to make their fortune through investing or like owning a business, potentially a property, whatever it might be, but you're never too young to start investing, which leads me to shift gears a little bit towards combining the two investing and getting a job, you have an internship at JP Morgan, which will be a surprise for a lot of people who would have thought that it's probably, you know, more of like a university level thing to be getting an internship with, you know, one of the biggest banks in the world, can you talk us through how a year 1015 year old landed a internship at JP Morgan. Aryaansh 30:23 Um, so actually, you know, it was just a stroke of pure chance, you know, I was scrolling through this kind of repository that I have of articles and links, to internships to job placements. And then I came across the JP Morgan careers website, and I was like, you might as well click on it, explore what it is. So the good thing about JP Morgan's website is that it is laid out much, much better, and they have many more options to offer, then I'm sure that I'm pretty sure any of the other ones, any of the other investment banks or firms, and, you know, they've got really four classes of internship. And of these, I think a two of them are available to high schoolers. And you know, there's like an internship and a pre internship. And so I decided to apply. And, you know, it's a fairly straightforward process, there was this really nice terminal, I filled in my stuff 100 in my resume. And, you know, that was it, then I had done I had to do this thing called a plyometrics test, which is really like an IQ test in the form of a small video game. That was that was interesting, but I had to keep tapping my spacebar a lot. And you know, that was really it. So I think what really stood out about my application as a whole was the fact that I should like not only an interest in finance, but as in, you know, I had taken stuff to feel that interest, as in, you know, I'd set up a fund with my friends, I'd read a little, you know, I'd worked on a little project about financial awareness, that kind of thing. Podcast Host 31:51 Right. And so what did it involve? What were you doing? Aryaansh 31:54 So, so what I've been basically doing for the majority of this is learning how to make financial models. And I think I'm very sure in investment banking, it's a very big thing, you know, because investment banking involves, you know, making deals happen. So, you know, when you get to a business, there's three financial statements, you got to think about, there's an income statement, balance sheet, and a cash flow forecast. And what I've been learning is how to, you know, make the very best of these models. And, you know, there's things called leveraged buyouts. And basically, it's a lot of financial modeling. And actually, over this internship, I learned how to use Excel without a mouse. So that was really the one of the highlights of the entire thing. And yeah, and so Apart from that, I learned a lot more about the trading desks here. And so JPMorgan has an HFT segment. And, you know, what they've been doing is high frequency trading, like I said, trading really seconds. And, you know, I sat down, we were thinking about strategy with a bunch of the people there. And it was very interesting, you know, thinking about what stocks kind of be look for what kind of features they capitalize on, when they are trying to do high frequency trading. Podcast Host 33:01 Right. And you said, one of the big highlights was learning how to use Excel without a mask. I know that there's like a heap of shortcuts. And I know as well that like, people might think, well, that's pretty lame thing to learn from an internship at JP Morgan. But being really good at Excel, and being really good at financial modeling is like a huge part of what a lot of financial analysts need to do. So how is your kind of skill set in that area gone from from like, fairly introductory to, you know, would you say intermediate? Or where do you think you rank yourself against other financial analysts at this point. Aryaansh 33:36 So from what I've heard, from talking to people in the industry, you know, you start out as an analyst role, like you said, and analysts basically get off the ground work passed down to them. And you know, this involves quite a lot of number crunching. And I'd say, you know, my skills really scrappy with Excel, because this because I never used Excel for anything other than, you know, maybe creating a calendar, which is a very limited use case. And, you know, what I found is, there is just so much stuff you can do with Excel. But now, I mean, I always have an Excel tab open for whenever I need to do a little bit of quick maths. And it's just amazing. And there's this really nice means about how the whole world's banking system relies on Microsoft Excel. And you know, just that's how pavlidis use cases, you know, you've got whole companies pulling their balance sheets, putting their financial information onto this one piece of software. And the beautiful thing is the numbers tell a story of that. And I'd say my skill sets gone from, you know, Fanny rusty, to pretty good. I mean, I I mean, the keyboards on it. Podcast Host 34:35 Yeah, exactly. Which is a real test of a good Excel user. And after doing the JP Morgan internship, what kind of doors Do you feel that's open for you, in terms of like your notoriety among your peers as like that one financial nerd to the wider LinkedIn world? Do you feel like it's given you a leg up in that area because you can put JP Morgan on your LinkedIn profile and people know Are you for that? Aryaansh 35:01 I definitely say that does, you know, it's like, the name just got a brand to it. And just having the experiences that I've, you know, gone through the work that I've done, it's really interesting to see how a big thumb handles work. I mean, if I was a university and undergraduate student, you know, if I did good, I'd probably get offered a full time some analyst role that, you know, I obviously wouldn't get paid for, but I'm not coming yet. So I tend, you know, when I talk to my friends as well, it's really interesting to hear about their opinions on a big tank like that. And you said it very well, your notoriety amongst my peers. So I mean, that really is just amazing interacting with people in the industry, working alongside them, shadowing them, users understanding how their thought process is because these people have gone to the very best of schools excel at the very best of what they do. And I think it's been an amazing learning experience. And I'd say, in terms of opening up doors, I mean, I fully understand just how a company's got to tell its story through its numbers. Podcast Host 36:04 Of course, you know, you've been putting in all those numbers in Excel spreadsheets for the last couple of months. So it's good that you've had that opportunity, after the three month experience, are you more committed or less committed, or the same to your future in financing? Aryaansh 36:18 So I think I am much, much more committed. I mean, you know, obviously, the trading part of it is one thing. But I think what's essential, as well as understanding these companies at their core, and I found this kind of experience to be like, an eye opener to things like that, I would definitely, you know, be 100% interested in a salon and still have, like, you know, a big bag. And I find that, you know, it's helped me a lot in understanding just how the world works. Podcast Host 36:47 Yeah, exactly. And in terms of where you want to go in university, like where do you see yourself studying? What do you see yourself studying? Like, Is there much benefit to studying when you are already creating algorithms and doing all this kind of stuff in the 10th? Aryaansh 37:03 I'm so actually, I really want to do this quantitative finance was at the Washington University for my undergraduate I've been looking at like so my top choice schools, all the ivy League's most of the ivy League's. And that's why I really aspire to be and just forming these kind of bonds from these relationships with people is really important. And then obviously, I'm sure that the experience you get and you know, obviously, a top tier University, learning the things that you love doing would be much, much different from you know, you tried to self teach yourself. Podcast Host 37:36 Yeah, absolutely. My my general impression is that classes like economics is not necessarily the place to learn about the stock market. Am I right in saying that? Aryaansh 37:45 I absolutely agree with that economics is, I'd say, the language of how people work. It's like, the good thing about economics is it combines, you know, how people react to things that happen in the market that they end to get onto the internet, the laptop that you've bought, that, you know, you've gone to market transacted for that, you know, you think about what to buy on Amazon? What impacts those decisions? You know, that's, that's, that's really more of a behavioral thing, which I think, you know, it's it's really poetic, really, how economics is this one language encompasses all of it? And it's like, you know, perfectly sound explanation, but everything anyone does, Podcast Host 38:25 Yes, well, that's what they try and do, I guess, in the rational economic style of being rational thinking, not always exactly the case, when you have something like GameStop coming along, which is kind of flew in the face of all economic theory. But do you have any final advice for students who are perhaps aiming for a career in finance, banking, that kind of thing, Aryaansh 38:44 I'd say, you know, the biggest thing you got to remember is that your brain is, you know, the best asset you could ever possibly have. So I'd say, invest more time on yourself, because that's going to ultimately lead to better investments for you. So you know, the books you read, the more courses you do, the more podcasts you listen to, the more people you talk to just just everything, you know, it's no steps, you know, you might read a book, and then just not think about it for the next week. But that book is going to change your outlook on something. And all of these little things, I'd say they add up and they add up and they go exponentially. So you know, I tried to do this, as well as in I tried to read a lot, read an interesting article, or like a book about a topic. I tried to take knowledge in and try to make the best use of that knowledge. And apart from that, I'd say, harness your social networks. And by social networks, I mean, LinkedIn. So, you know, a bunch of the projects I've been working on, I have met people, certainly entrepreneurship bug me, you know, eight, nine months back, it'd be locked down. And the only way I found people to work on things like this with me was via LinkedIn. And if you network with people in the industry, you know, it takes it takes a bit of time to get used to, but I feel you know, that time That you could have spent on tik tok or Instagram, it's gonna be much, much better served on platforms like LinkedIn, making meaningful impressions with the people that can matter most to your career. Podcast Host 40:11 And before you go as well, I want to know where you get your day to day information from because I think a lot of people would think, okay, if I need to learn about the stock market, I'll read the Wall Street Journal, or I'll read, you know, like the, here in Australia, the Australian Financial Review or something like that. But of course, you know, there is a lot of great online forums where you have like, people who are super nerdy about this stuff, who are, you know, telling you things that you probably never read in the newspaper. So what are your go to resources for those that day to day information about what's happening in the stock market? Aryaansh 40:43 So if I want to know what's happening, the stock market says it, you know, news wise, I'd say the Financial Times, they offer a free subscription to secondary school students. So you know, it's amazing that ways, which are financial data as information on stocks, there's this amazing company called atom finance. And atom finance has been, you know, serving my needs for the last year. So they offer like a month, that means subscription for free, and it is amazing. They give you so much data that you just don't know what to do with a little bit. And I'd say, you know, information is really key to understanding what's happening, you know, what moves are going on. So Financial Times are to finance. And this is one last one that's really underrated, but it's called KoiFin and it's basically, you know, like a proper stock trading terminal. Um, except it's just really technical. And you know, you don't need a mouse to use it. It's entirely keyboard driven, which is one thing I like even being on Excel. Podcast Host 41:40 Yeah. So Koi fin, Financial Times, and Atom finance, was it? Absolutely awesome. Well, I will recommend that for students listen to the podcast to save those in their favorites. And if students wanted to connect with you, what would be the best way to go about it? I'm going to guess LinkedIn is one of the Aryaansh 41:58 LinkedIn is the biggest option, there is a connection request, the more than happy to accept it. I love creating relationships with people via LinkedIn. And I mean, you know, my email, Alex, very kindly note that at the start of the session, that one finance analogy. Podcast Host 42:17 Perfect. Well, I'll put those in the show notes, and hopefully some students reach out to you. Thank you so much for joining us, and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Aryaansh 42:25 Absolutely. Thank you so much. Podcast Host 42:27 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to crimsoneducation.org

College Tips - A Deep Dive into the UK Personal Statement with Crimson Strategist, Abbi Colwyn

#5 A Deep Dive into the UK Personal Statement with Crimson Strategist, Abbi Colwyn

🗓 MAR 3, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Welcome to top of the class, hear from education experts and get insights from high achievers to learn how you can do the same get into those top schools ready. Proudly presented by Crimson Education, the world's leader in university admissions support. Hello, and welcome to college tips. Today, UK application strategist and Oxford graduate Abby Cohen discusses the UK personal statements. She shares some of her favorite essay writing formulas, techniques to refine the essays and examples from successful applicants. Let's chat with Abby Cohen. Hi, Abby, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Abbi 00:41 Yeah, great. Thank you for having me. So I'm Abby. I'm a UK strategy consultant here at crimson. So I work with students aiming for top universities in the UK. I myself studied at Oxford, I did English Language and Literature specializing in medieval ism, actually. And then I did my masters at London School of Economics in international policy. Podcast Host 01:03 Wow. So you've been at both Oxford and LSE. So you've seen some of the top universities both in the regional parts of London, I guess you could call Oxford and Cambridge, regional in that sense. And also right in the centre of London, right in the heart of London, what was the biggest difference for you between that experience from Oxford and LSE? Abbi 01:22 I mean, so. So the biggest difference, I would say, was the collegiate system at Oxford. So being part of a college itself, not just the university, I absolutely loved that. It made it super easy to make friends, there was lots of college events, which I found really nice sense of belonging that side of things. Whereas at London I lived in private accommodation with friends already had. So that made things a little bit different for my masters. But I loved London life, the networking, the environment, being on a tube, not so much. But everything else I really, really enjoy, but definitely different living experiences. For sure. Podcast Host 01:57 I've been lucky enough to visit both Oxford and LSE. Just as a tourist, of course, not as a student, I wish as a student. But yeah, it's LSE, I found to be fascinating, because you barely know it's there. Some of the times like you're walking past the buildings, and you'll just see these like little inconspicuous LSA signs. So it's so integrated in the heart of London, and obviously Oxford Oxford, is very much owns the town in a way. But let's get into what you're wanting to chat about today, which I believe is personal statements. Why did you choose personal statements as your topic of choice? Hmm, Abbi 02:30 great question. And so ultimately, I love working with students on their personal statements, I find it such an interesting process, because it's one of those parts of the application that you can really make individual. So it's a chance for me to have meetings with students and actually just get a sense of what their interests are, and have great debates in our sessions as well. So with working with students across different subjects, I'm learning as well, I'm learning about all these different areas of physics, or maths or humanities that that students really, really care about. And so I just find it really, really rewarding experience and to get students from, you know, just initially describing being a bit shy, maybe about I've read this, but I don't really know what to talk about. So then seeing a finished product, something tangible at the end, where that'd be insightful and really, really engaging. It's just a really, really nice thing to see and to work on. So definitely something that I'm passionate about in the application process. Podcast Host 03:23 Yeah, absolutely. I can hear that passion in your voice, which is awesome. So I'm looking forward to asking you some questions here and learning more about the personal statements. My first one being, what role does the personal statement play in the application process? Like, at what stage? Is it likely to be read? Is there likely to play a role there after? Like, what are your views on the importance or the role that the personal statement actually plays? Abbi 03:49 So I guess it's the big personal pitch. So it's really a student's opportunity to give a sense of who they are as a student. So it looks a little bit different in the application process. So students will ultimately write their personal statement as one of the first things they do for the application Admission Test interviews come much later. So that's the first thing they do. Whereas in the application process, it's actually one of the last things, especially for Oxbridge and on top universities that they look at. So they'll start with the kind of the numerical of grades, academics, admission tests, and then they come to look at the statement. So it's really important that that is your big personal pitch that it talks about your interest in the course beyond just what you're good at academically and what you excel in, it needs to very much be about what have you done that demonstrates your interest, your passion, your curiosity, and what are the experiences you've had that makes that relevant? So the role that that really has in the application process is making you an individual making someone who isn't just a carbon copy of what we think universities love to see, but actually someone that's really put in the effort to find out what it is that that they love about their subject and I would say for non Oxbridge universe Because there might not be an interview, it really is your one opportunity to do that you don't have a second chance of giving off your personality and talking through those interests. So it's really worth making the most of that. Podcast Host 05:11 And if you could put like a weighting roughly on the personal statement, is that something that you're able to do? Or does it really depend on your university that you're applying to etc, Abbi 05:21 ignoring kind of medicine, but med dentistry, which is a completely separate ballgame, I would say you're looking at 75% on academics. And then 25% is the personal statement with all the extracurriculars in there with the wider reading subjects engagement. So it's not the biggest factor in your application. But it's certainly something that can push your candidacy and make them make that decision, medicine, dentistry, that med medicine, personal statement becomes less important. They really only use that for the interview stages. And for borderline cases, pretty much everything for those applications will be work experience academics, and the admission test. Podcast Host 06:01 So one of the things that I thought was always interesting, and talking to a former admissions officer who came to Australia, who was a Stanford former Stanford admissions officer, but he said one of the things when you're writing a personal statement for the US, which is another whole topic that we're not going to get into today, but he said like you need to be kind of cognizant of your audience and who you're writing it for. And he said, like the majority of people who are reading these, you know, personal statements in the US and humanities backgrounds type of people, that if you go too heavy in the technical language, they might kind of glaze over and not really understand what you're trying to get across. Is that the same in the UK in that, like the majority of people are reading the personal statements are kind of humanities backgrounds, people who enjoy reading, or is it more kind, of course specific experts who are likely to read the personal statement? Abbi 06:52 Hmm, yeah. So you really have to break this up for kind of Oxbridge and non Oxbridge just because it works completely differently. So, so non Oxbridge, its general admissions officers. So yeah, not necessarily a humanities background. But it will be people who have elected and being, you know, ultimately employed to look through that part of the application process. And so for that kind of application, it does mean being super clear with what you're trying to say you can use specific language to show that you've got knowledge of your course. So we do want you to be very subject specific in your statement, because we don't want it to feel like a humanities statement. We want it to feel say like history statement. Or if you're applying for a stem subject, not just a general stem statement, but a math statement. So you do have to give those specific areas of knowledge with the way you write it needs to be extremely direct and extremely clear. Because it's a general admissions officer, or Oxbridge. It's a completely unique process, because it's tutors that will be reading your statement, not general admission staff. So these will be the people that might interview you, and ultimately could be your tutor in a one to one or two to one tutorial or supervision. So for the Oxbridge application, that very much means going above just here's my interest, but actually making sure that you stand out as someone that a tutor says, right, I want to chew to you, the way that you really do that is by showing your academic character. So by that we mean, showing that you're curious showing that you're an independent thinker. Don't just paraphrase the reading, evaluate it show that you're being critical and analytical. And through that they get a sense of your academic potential for for university levels for Cambridge, that you're not just memorizing a curriculum or memorizing a book. But actually, you're doing something a bit further, something a bit deeper. So that really is the difference, I guess, with who reads it between those universities. Podcast Host 08:43 So am I right in saying that? No, you only have one personal statement to write. So if you're applying to say Oxford or Cambridge because you only apply to one. And you also have LSE UCL, those kind of universities on your shopping list as well. Who should you address your personal statement to I mean, knowing that there's a little bit of a difference between the two approaches, right, should you say, Alright, I'm going to go hard or go home. I'm aiming for Oxbridge. And that's what I'm going to be pitching my personal statement to? Or should you take the more conservative approach and try and write the one personal statement that might strike that middle ground and appease everybody? Abbi 09:21 So we say to all students, or applicants make it an Oxford statement, because if you're if it's an Oxford statement, it will suit the non Oxbridge. It's just that the Oxford has that extra bit of depth, that extra bit of academic reading, but if you're not applying to Oxford or Cambridge, you don't necessarily need to have to get those spots. And so ultimately, the key thing for the whole one size fits all rule. One personal statement for all five choices is just making sure that your course selection is right that you're not picking vastly different courses that your statement is going to alienate one, but target another that if you are applying for slightly different courses, say you're applying for some politics Philosophy, economics GPA, and others just politics and economics. But your main dominating disciplines in there are the politics and economics but with a little bit of philosophy. And so that's really the only thing that you need to account for with the whole kind of one statement for all is just that you're not picking these very, very difficult choices. Podcast Host 10:17 Okay. Well, my next question is about formulas. Because often when it comes to statement writing, whether that be in the US or the UK, I think a lot of people like to start off by understanding the formula is their old kind of way of thinking that once you know the rules, you can break the rules type of thing. But is there actually a typical formula that most students would probably try and follow or emulate if they're writing a personal statement for the UK? Abbi 10:45 Yeah, I mean, so we see kind of what a typical successful statement looks like. And I mean, pretty much all of them have a very, very personal introduction. I know it's similar in the US in terms of having a really bold and impactful opening. So for the UK, that introduction, just needs to really give us a sense of why you're applying for the course. So the example that I give students is really what does it stem from? So not just my parents are lawyers, I want to study law. But actually, is there a debate that you've all discussed? And what was the debate? And what was the particular discussion point that you grappled with? or Are you frustrated by something, something really personal, I would say is a safe formula for that introduction, kind of moving on from that, I guess, main body paragraphs, depending on how long your paragraphs are, because the word count at the same it's so small for the UK, it's 4000 characters. So pretty much 600 words, it's tiny, is really making sure that those main body paragraphs still show depth, even if they're slightly shorter. So we usually say make sure there's a key interest in there, make sure there's some evidence of how you're going to be on the curriculum, and then make sure you've got some analysis, some evaluation of that evidence, what did you gain? You know, what was your big takeaway from the internship you did, or from the book you read, and then really just making sure that that conclusion ties everything together, but really gives a sense of what do you hope to gain from the degree? Have you got a career path in mind? Or really, what do you bring to the degree, so I really push all my international students to lean into their background, because that's what sets them apart from domestic students. So actually, having lived in maybe two different countries, or knowing five languages, what does that add to this degree? Why does that set you apart? And then I guess, in terms of the tone of the statement, the formula that works, is really just being authentic, being genuine. Having senses that aren't just plausible, but really a well conceived that we can see that you've put a lot of time and effort into coming up with the insights, and making that analysis. And a crimson, we have these fairly cheesy saying these five key pillars, but that really does work. And I know spiky pillars, you know, insight. Are you showing those takeaways? Are you engaged and curious? Is it well structured? well written or quality of prose? Is it personal? So only you could be the only feasible author? And then is it is it authentic? And for me, those five things really do work for students? Podcast Host 13:04 Love it. Okay. That's an awesome summary. Thank you so much for that. Abby. I feel like I, I understand, I've been working with Crimson now, nearly five years. And that's probably the best breakdown. I've heard of the personal statement. So thank you for that. How the personal statement might change, if at all, depending on the course you're applying to in particular, because obviously, there is a great emphasis, particularly at Oxbridge regarding the course, is true. So should that formula change at all? Like should you have, you know, if you're applying to a very technical subject, spend more time in your body of your essay talking about the technical sides of your application that you might want to bring to the fore? Or is it all you know, pretty much the same, no matter what chords you're applying to. Abbi 13:58 So definitely can change definitely. So that's, I guess what I've gone through is, if you like a kind of a general skeleton, a general structure, just that is that kind of basic level what it looks like, but certainly, so if you are applying for say medicine, something a bit more professional based or technical, there's different things that they look for. So they want to see work experience, they want to volunteering, they've got a list of kind of key qualities and selection criteria that students have to demonstrate. So you know, honesty or empathy or problem solving that need to be in there. And same really with with some other technical subjects, they engineering, they like to see practical application as well as the academic reading. So it certainly can, that basic skeleton structure can change. And also it really depends on the student's profile. So I work with some students where those three big main paragraph works really well, because a lot of their activities are reading links naturally with one another and there's connections to be made that make the paragraph flow rather than a list, but for other students that I work with, you know, They might have loads of different extracurriculars they've done, they've done an essay competition, they've done work experience, they've made a blog, that don't necessarily all link. And so it makes more sense for them to have slightly smaller paragraphs that are still coherent than try and shove everything together in one long paragraph that actually just doesn't make sense. So we can play around with that structure a little bit. And really, in terms of Oxbridge, the only difference is that they just want to see extra academic engagement. So we roughly say about 80% academic exploration. So that doesn't mean just curriculum, or just reading it might be you've done a research paper or an essay competition, but making sure you're showing that academic potential through your analysis through what you're saying and reflecting on, Podcast Host 15:42 I always like looking at the common mistakes that students might make. So in the personal statements case, what might they be is it maybe even as simple as exceeding the word limit or writing too short or going off topic or, you know, that whole idea of my parents are lawyers, therefore, I want to be a lawyer type of thing. Like, it's been kind of vague as to why students want to be there. But from your side of things, having worked with a lot of students on the personal statement, what do you see as being some of the more basic common mistakes that our listeners might be able to avoid? Abbi 16:12 So as you mentioned, cliches, the big one, I see that so many times, yeah, I've always wanted to be a doctor, I really want to save lives. And that's lovely. You know, we want everyone to save lives. But it needs to be a bit more unique than that, you know, three or voluntary hasn't been a particular patient you engage with that stood out to you and why? So that we avoid the sense of kind of, you're just being pushed into a direction. But instead, actually, you've chosen this direction, it's something that has been an educated choice. So definitely avoid those those kind of cliches. And with that, a lot of students tend to quote people I've seen most recently, actually, that they they think they need to, in reading academic material, use a quotation and actually you really don't you want to be use your own voice as much as possible, rather than using anybody else's. If you are set on using a quote, make sure it's sure and make sure that you don't just have put it in there that you actually engage with it, you know, why are you using the quote? What are the limits of the quote, you know, what do you think the quote, links are more broadly in the issues and insights of your course, the other thing we see a lot is listing, we see a lot of, you know, I need to tell you all my achievements, because they're really impressive. And I'm really happy about them. And that's great. But we don't want it to just be a long list that a tutor is having to read hundreds and hundreds of these that they just go right? Yes. So you want it to be engaging, you want us to get a sense of why these different extracurriculars are relevant to your course and how they build on one another, you know, did you gain different perspectives from different books? Did you, you know, gain a more practical application of doing something. And so the big thing we say, cheesy again, but really discuss don't list. So really get that evaluation with that as well. We say show don't tell. So don't just tell me something, Don't tell me you're creative, or you're critical, or you're independent, show me that show me through what you've done. And that you have those skills? Those would be the main things, I think, Podcast Host 18:05 right? Right. Well, this is an interesting one, because I would have liked to a thought that I was a good English student at school. I don't even know if that sentence was structured correctly. But basically, you get the gist. I thought I was a pretty good English student at school, I would get some decent marks in my essays, etc. is a student who is good at English at school, likely to be at an advantage when writing the personal statement? Or is it pretty much a level playing field because it is a piece of writing that is unlike the majority of pieces of writing that students are likely to engage with at school? Right, you know, you mentioning the quotes and those kinds of things. That sounds like, you know, the the structured essays that they're putting together for their, you know, school assignments in analyzing a text or whatever it might be. So yeah, there's the whole concept that this is a piece of writing that students don't typically engage with, there's a kind of level the playing field. Abbi 18:59 Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting question. I guess I guess it it does. I mean, there's some things you know, about structure, that obviously they're looking for that they want to make sure it's well structured. But it's it's well conceived that, that students are being complex and the way they're thinking, but I think that's an important distinction to make that actually, it's not about having complex convoluted language, because they'll absolutely see through that, that doesn't give you any advantage, if anything, it's just hiding and clouding what you're trying to say. So yeah, it's much better to be clearer, straight to the point direct, saying, I have developed a particular interest in this. Here's how. And so in that sense, I guess, yeah, you don't have to be the top of the English class to write the best statement. It's about the student who is genuinely engaged with that subject, and is talking them through what they've done that demonstrates that interest. So let me try and give you an example here. I had a student last year who applied for economics. English wasn't wasn't his first language, but he wrote an amazing personal statement that was so straight to the point I'm so reflective. I mean, he got an interview to Oxford. So one of his paragraphs, you know, he had work experience in a supermarket, which isn't necessarily life changing doesn't really lend itself naturally to these big analytical, maybe complex, convoluted arguments. But actually, it did, because he said, Look, while working at a supermarket, I noticed that items I level, they were sold most quickly. And he connected this to something you read about I level is to buy level and all about consumer spending consumer behavior. And so actually, yes, he wasn't the best English student. Yes, he didn't have English as a first language. Yes, he didn't have these outstanding extracurriculars that were academic. But the way he reflected on it and the way he wrote it was so direct, that what he was saying was, was complex, as opposed to how he was saying it, if that makes sense. So you know, definitely think that it levels the playing field in that sense. And, as you mentioned, it is unlike essays at school. So this is also why we say to really start this process early. Because the tone of it is completely unique to anything you've ever written before. And probably the only thing you'll ever write again, that actually as long as you take the time and rewrite and edit, and, you know, talk to your strategist or or talk to your teacher and follow those steps, that actually anyone can write a very, very good statement as long as they're being reflective. Podcast Host 21:21 Well, that leads me to my next question, roughly, how long should students put aside to write their statement? Abbi 21:27 Definitely longer than a week. I mean, I I wrote, I think I wrote like eight to nine drafts of my personal statement before I sent it. I mean, this really is a process of rewriting so. So I would say, you know, if you're applying for the early deadline, if you're applying for that October 15, deadline, you want to be starting in May or June, if you're applying for the late January deadline, maybe you've got a bit longer, you know, start in summer, July, August time is probably okay. We also want to think you want to submit earlier than the jam deadline, just because offers that are on a rolling basis, but separate issue. And so really, the reason we say to start early is because there's so much to fit into 600 words. And actually, I think the 600 words, 4000 character limit makes it harder, because you have to still be impactful and show depth and be analytical. But not just talk about one thing, you've got to talk about three or four things and get all your extra curricular and all your reading that you want to mention him. But a lot of our students are just like, how do I narrow this down? And so it takes a while to select what you want to talk about. It takes a while to draw connections so that you know which book which extracurricular belong in the same paragraph, which don't. So that takes some time. Then once you've written it, you might want to restructure the organization, which paragraph do I put at the top? Which is my best one? Where is my insight? A bit common? A bit, you know, generic? How can I deepen that? Do I need to read an extra article? You know, here, I mentioned sports, but I'm applying for medicine, you know, how do I make that relevant, or I need to go and read an article that looks at sports medicine. So it really does take a while to refine exactly what you want to say. And because of the short word count, and because you have to be as concise but as impactful as possible. It does mean that a lot of times, especially near the end, you're spending quite some time taking out those those last 100 200 characters without losing any meaning. And so that in itself can take some time, too. So yeah, definitely, definitely start early. I know that all teachers say that. But if you want this to be something that says to universities, and says to Oxbridge tutors, hey, I really care about my application I've really put the time in, they will be able to see that in the structure and the quality of your statement. Podcast Host 23:34 I really love what you did in the middle of that answer, which was kind of ask yourself those questions to get your statement to that next level, kind of that reflective questions. Is this too cliche? Is this too generic? Have I linked this properly to the course that I'm applying to? Do you have any other tips for that editing, drafting, rewriting process that students might be able to use no matter what I say that writing whether that being a personal statement or any other essay? Sounds like you've done this quite a few times. So I'm going to guess you'd have some tips for students, whether that's to read it out aloud from your side, is there any particular tips that you have for students are going through this drafting process? Abbi 24:14 With the kind of the narrowing the shortening the word count? I say to students, you know, you've said this in two sentence, can you say it in one? So I guess the question they can ask themselves, there is, I might say the same thing twice, but just in a different way. Because that's something that we see as well. Also, in normal essays, you can see that because you really want to make your point and you want to make sure that you're being compelling. You can actually say things twice over. And that's just a waste of word count. So that that's the first thing. I also say students, particularly for this idea about being personal being genuine. I get them to say right, is this sentence just plausible. So as a reader who doesn't know anything about me, they've never met me. They've never spoken to me. Is this sentence believable? So that's number one. Once you found out Yes, it's believable. It's plausible, then is it more than that? Is it actually well conceived? Is it something that's thoughtful, something that I haven't just said, I've done work experience? Let me prove that to you by telling you what department I worked in. But going beyond that, and saying, here's a meeting that I sat on specifically, this is what I learned, I guess is the other question I have, is this specific enough? Or could anybody have written it? And so especially talking about reading, because you know, a lot of these these big books that are on the recommended reading list that students read, you know, that's fine, that's fantastic. But imagine that another 100 students are reading that book, are you saying the exact same thing that they're saying? Or are you saying something different? And that can be a way of making sure that even though you're using really academic and rigorous reading, you're still standing out, you're still being that critical thinker? And also coherence wise? Does every sentence build on the one before? Do you have that flow, as opposed to just this stream of consciousness and thoughts that actually don't link? Is it very much a sense of right, this is a sentence that tells them my interest, this is the sentence that goes deeper, this is the sentence that provides my evidence. So it's really important that you get that sense of building blocks. So I get students to think about that, especially if they're mentioning more than one extracurricular or reading. It's actually a case of well, why are you mentioning both? How does one link to the next does one provide a different approach? Do they disagree? Do they agree? And then what do you think having synthesize the two together? So it's really about those building blocks that they can ask themselves about? Podcast Host 26:24 Well, you're certainly making 600 words sound a lot more complicated than it usually could or should be great when students think 600 word essay, they're like, Oh, yeah, easy, right. But there's so many questions that go into making a really good essay. And I think or personal statement in this case. And I think, and knowing those questions, and knowing how to reflect on the importance of those questions, and knowing what to do, when you find the answer to those questions, they're all the things that go into making a great personal statement. So from your side of things, do you remember a great personal statement? One that kind of jumped out at you I know, you mentioned the student who was applying for economics. But is there any other essay that you can think of where you read it? And it may have been the first time that students submitted it to you or may have been like a third or fourth draft or whatever it might have been? Could have been your own essay? Who knows? And it's a way you're like, oh, wow, they have just nailed this. And can you talk us through I guess, why? Perhaps that essay stands out to you. Abbi 27:25 You know, there's so many, because, like I said about it being like being an original being unique. There's so many times I've read a statement and just go, Wow, you've really understood the connections that I want you to make here. And so Okay, one from this year then. So I had a student who, like, Yeah, let's go for a nice car. So I had a student who applied for for anthropology at most universities, and then at Oxford, apply for it, and eventually has gotten into anthropology and archaeology, which accepts something crazy, like 40 students per year across all colleges, so it's absolutely tiny course. And I think what was impressive about this, the students statement was she never studied archaeology before or anthropology. So both were new subjects. And so what we really worked hard on was using, okay, what can be done in your curriculum that we think is relevant, say, in history or in English, that we can then use to help further your interest in in anthropology, archaeology. And one of the things we started with so one of her paragraphs, she started with Look, I'm deputy editor of my school magazine. And she spoke about the skills she gained, you know, the qualities, the analytical side of it. But then she went into one of these specific articles that initially, she started looking at, from a history perspective, a historical perspective. And then she thought, actually, maybe I can use this for my archaeology anthropology side. And I specifically remember coming to the meeting and saying to me, Abby, I found this ivory salt cellar. And I was like, Okay, cool. Tell me about this ivory salt cellar. And we ended up just having a chat, we ended up reading these articles, she went away, she looked at religion, she looked at culture, as you're at this amazing paragraph all about how this ivory salt cellar, could show us through material culture. The relationship between people in Sierra Leone and the Portuguese, I think in like the 1500, some sometime around then. And she spoke about African themes, Christian motifs, and the impact of trade on Coltrane, it was it was superb. But actually, what stands out most to me was that, once you've done that, once you drink this article for a school magazine, that yes, relevant to the course she's applying for it. In the end, she then had this fantastic sentence at the bottom that said, retrospectively, now evaluating what I did in my newspaper, here's what I would have added. Here's a perspective, I didn't have chance to include them. But I want to tell you about now. So she was showing these, you know, tutors that she done this amazing extracurricular, she done this incredible analysis, but there's still more to do. There's still more to be curious about. And she went and tried to start answering those additional questions. And I think that's a great example of actually you can apply to something you've not studied yet, and still be curious, analytical, engaged, and still managed to make your extracurriculars relevant and draw those connections between your cause And something you've done at school. Podcast Host 30:01 I love that anecdote. That was awesome. Thank you so much. That was great. I really, I really felt like I was reading along with you that student's personal statement. Yeah, it's great as a feeling, you know, for a tutor or mentor, to see a student absolutely nail something like that. You're like, yes, this is going to work. Right. That's a very exciting moment. Is there any other advice that you would give for students before we depart? Yeah, so Abbi 30:27 I think I might have said this earlier. But don't be a carbon copy of what you think universities want to see. Be an individual, find your own interest. And don't shy away from giving your own opinion. They want to know if you agree with a book, they want to know, if there was any limits, and maybe a project that you did, did you face a challenge, like you couldn't find the data you needed? Or actually, in engineering, you made a project that just didn't work? That's fine. So long as you talk about how you overcame it or retrospectively what you would have done differently or what you've learned from that process. Maybe you've learned perseverance. So don't shy away from that and do engage with what you're doing. And ultimately, go and explore go and do loads of reading, find out those niche result sellers that you want to talk about, because that is the things that you know if I remember it, that's also what a tutor will remember as well. So, so be memorable in that sense. Podcast Host 31:17 Abby, it's been fantastic having you on college chats for students out there who would like the opportunity to work with someone like Abby. On their application, there's going to be a link in the show notes to a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor. But otherwise, Abbi, enjoy your lovely day there in London, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

College Tips - Harvard Grad, Gabe Gladstein, on How to Stand out from the Crowd

#4 Harvard Grad, Gabe Gladstein, on How to Stand out from the Crowd

🗓 FEB 24, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Chats. I'm your host Alex Cork. And today I chat with Crimson Education strategist and Harvard graduate, Gabe Gladstein. We discuss how students can stand out from the crowd, especially as standardized testing requirements continue to be dropped, gave shares some fantastic examples of what past students have done, as well as giving his own suggestions on how you can start something today. Let's chat with Gabe bloodstain. Hey, Gabe, welcome to College Chats. It's awesome to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Gabe 00:49 Yeah, so my name is Gabe Gladstein. I'm from Santa Rosa, California. So that's Northern California, near San Francisco. I went to Harvard, I got my BA in government. And then I got a master's degree from the nearby New England Conservatory of Music, and music. And I'm a violinist, a singer and a songwriter. I live in Los Angeles, I've worked at Crimson for nearly six years now, I created our US admissions program. And I'm now the head of product development, which is super exciting. So I continue to work with students, but I also get to like design our new educational services and make sure that, you know, all of our services are on like, you know, the absolute forefront of kind of, you know, the industry broadly. Podcast Host 01:33 Fantastic. And what are we going to focus on today. Gabe 01:36 So today, I'd love to discuss what differentiates students in this day and age, and, you know, kind of what can create a great applicant, I think that with, especially this, you know, the COVID, and the most recent application season, which was really, really competitive, there's some confusion out there, for students about what they can do to really stand out the application process. And I think those things have changed over time. So what I want to talk about today is like, how do you develop a deep interest, which I think is the key to standing out? And then how do you build on that, you know, with your activities list, and, you know, your academic intellectual interests, to really illustrate to colleges that you are something special? Podcast Host 02:15 So what kind of qualities do you think top universities are looking for in applicants? Gabe 02:20 One of the things we're seeing more of an, like, expectations from admissions officers at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, but they're a big part of what they're looking for, is that flexibility. But it's not just like, you know, because I think some kids could interpret flexibility as being like, Oh, well, so I need to be well rounded, like I need to have, you know, a lot of like different things, you know, a lot of different activities or represent a lot of different skill sets. And it's not so simple as that, I think, what they want to see is deep intellectual engagement, and intellectual engagement is like, in a way, it's a form of like creative engagement. So it's, you know, investing time and energy into, you know, learning about one or, you know, maybe a couple things, but then it's developing your own takes on those things, it's developing your own insights and perspectives, you know, seeking out experiences in, you know, in those subjects or relating to those subjects or skill sets. And I think that's really like, that's what they're looking for, you know, they're not, I think the days of like, Oh, I started an app, and therefore, like, Harvard's gonna let me in, like, yeah, those days are sort of actually kind of waning, in my view. I think that, you know, so many kids now have tried to do that, and, and pursued that path that, you know, it's just, it's like anything, right? We in admissions are, there are cycles and things that are, like exciting when they're new. And then you know, that too many people do them, and they're no longer new, they're no longer the exciting thing. Like, this year, we've seen some amazing applicants come through Crimson who basically, like, saw that or understood that trend, and that change, and, like, anticipated it and adjusted and they, you know, they just this year, they this last year, but you know, big pattern that we're seeing is like kids training, especially Gen Z, I think is like really focused on, you know, General AI Community Services, not a broad enough term, it's really, it's more this notion of like, thinking about the well being of humanity. It's never like really broad. But it's true. It's like, the way that that kids are, are conceiving of their potential impact these days is like, so different. I mean, when I was in high school is like, you know, if you start a charity and like, raise $10,000, that's incredibly significant. And that's what is it like 12 years ago or something? It's completely different now, like the thinking around, like, what kind of impact can I have? And obviously, you know, this comes on the back of like, some really inspiring people like Malala and you know, Greta tunberg. And there are many sorts of kids who just like, you know, step into a huge international spotlight, but you don't have to be like them in order to have that kind of impact. And I think that that's, I'm sure that's part of what what you You observed. And part of what we've seen also on our end is like kids really embracing this notion of like, I'm going to do what I can, you know what I'm capable of, and give as much of myself as I can to doing some good. And you know, I'm going to find something that really sticks out to me, or that I can really understand around my head around, and I'm gonna explain to other people, it's movement building, but it doesn't always have to be on a big scale. And that's what's been, I think, really exciting for me to see recently, and it's hard, it's hard to make that change. But, you know, just in terms of like, what admissions officers expect, and how to do that in a way that feels personal, you know, to per each kid, rather than, you know, kind of contrived, and but yeah, I've been really impressed. Podcast Host 05:41 It feels so mature, though, right? Like that whole, that understanding that you are thinking bigger than yourself. It's not just thinking about the college admissions process and what you're going to put in your application. It's like, Who am I as a person? And what am I going to give back to the world, it's, it's, as you said, like, it's not about just creating one thing and saying, that's my ticket to college. It's creating like a holistic story that really portrays what you want to do not just at college, but possibly after college, that takes a whole lot of maturity, and I guess, long term thinking, is that something that you think students are usually good at? Or not so good at? Gabe 06:20 I think that your average student is probably not that great, that type of thinking. And I think it's, yeah, it's interesting, because there are some students we see who do this well, as a result of being really just plugged in to what is happening right now in the world or in society. And that's, I mean, you know, more and more, it's happening through things like Tick tock, you know, those types of mediums where, I mean, you'd be surprised, but Tick Tock is not all dance trends, you know, yeah, it's a, it's a lot of like, videos of very young people talking about extremely serious issues and their community and, you know, their community could be local, state, national, whatever it is, but, you know, often explaining them in a, you know, I mean, you know, the longest Tiktok video you can make is a minute. So, at most, it's going to take them a minute to explain a really complicated issue. There, there are a ton of great tech talks, where they like present evidence, kind of show that evidence for, like, how they came to this conclusion. And, and you know, where this problem that they're pointing out, often it has to do with the way you know, fundamentally, it comes down to the way a certain group of people is treated. And there's a real thread that runs through this generation of kids Gen Z, that I've just been, like, so impressed by like this thread of empathy and the desire to connect and understand in a way that I've always like, think I've always wanted millennials, like my generation to experience more of, and I just feel like it didn't hit us in the same way. But Gen Z grew up in this, like, really complicated world where they were exposed to these problems and what's going on in the world right away, like right off the bat, you know, I mean, from basically, as long as they can remember, right? They've had YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, you know, they've had all these, these different ways of connecting with what's going on in the world for us for my generation, like that happened a little later. And that difference, I think, is enormous. Because, you know, for us, it was like, we started with YouTube. And at the beginning, and Facebook at the beginning was all about us. It was all about like, Well, how do you feel? And you know, what, what, like video, what do you want to say in your like, you know, personal YouTube channel. And so I think that created a mindset for millennials have a little bit more sort of self centeredness. But Gen Z is like, I think often treats this very differently, there's a lot more concern for, you know, what is happening, what other people's experiences are. So that's like, to me, like, that's kind of the best, most natural way that kids can come up upon this perspective, is just by being tuned in to global events, what's going on in the world, it could mean reading the New York Times. And that's great. Like, that's a great way to learn to figure out but it doesn't have to me that it can really like it could be through the social media that they're all already using, but it's about how they use it. And look, do dance trends, like that's fun, like engage with these things in a fun way. I think any every student I work with, like, I always encourage them to, like, seek out the parts of these things that bring them joy. But but also think constructively. You know, think like, okay, where are the pockets on this platform of information that like, I want to seek out I want to find I want to find out what's going on in my community? How do I who's making the content? That's, that's like breaking some news or, you know, revealing some inequities in the world? And what can I do, the great thing about these tech talks is oftentimes, like, they'll end with some kind of call to action. You know, these kids like they're brilliant, the way they're thinking up, like how to make an impact even from just where they're sitting, you know, in their whatever their their family's house and whatever country and I think it's a type of engagement and it's seeking out, you know, that content and those opportunities to do something to have an impact. Podcast Host 09:54 What do you think about the academically brilliant student, right, because obviously, the satays The subject test etc have taken a significant backward step over the last year or so during COVID. And is there still a place for a student who just puts their nose in the books? I mean, obviously, not to the extent where they have basically no extracurriculars, or they would have some extracurriculars. But their primary reason for going to college or their primary card that they're going to play in the admissions process is academics. Is that still a card that students could potentially play? Or is that now No, no longer enough? Gabe 10:32 It's not enough. But to be clear, like, I don't think that academics alone have been enough for a good little while. Because I think even when I was applying to college, it wasn't enough to just be the best, you know, academically or in terms of your grades, you needed more than that. And I think that it's interesting to see as having the Subject Tests, I'm glad you brought that up. because historically, there have been these things like the Subject Tests, which are, I would what I would call like, low hanging fruit. So like very easy opportunities to show that you have some academic skill in a certain area, and those getting taken away, I think, is not necessarily a bad thing, actually, because in the end, I think what colleges really want to see is deeper engagement. And just, you know, taking the like biology subject test to prove that you did well, in your biology class, is not that interesting, right? It doesn't really tell them that much about you, but volunteering at your, you know, local, like marine biology, you know, Conservation Center over the summer, and meeting a scientist there, who you then work with during the next school year, and you end up like, you know, assisting some of their research. And that introduces you to somebody who ends up being a mentor and writes a letter of recommendation for you saying this person is like, brilliant, you know, next hope for marine biology. Like, those are the sorts of things that colleges are interested in. And then the thing is, like, what that really requires, it's not some kind of like, innate academic brilliance, that's the thing is like, that is less important than just sheer initiative like spunk, that's what they want to see. They want to, like, is this kid sitting, you know, in their room, hoping or waiting for an opportunity to come to them? Or are they going out and, and finding one, I think, when it comes to academically brilliant students, like, Look, I want to be clear, you don't have to start a charity, like you don't have to do some, some incredible, like, you know, community service project, or, you know, you don't have to be a genius artist, you have to be a genius at all, really, all you need to do is pursue something with depth, that's really what they're looking for is the development of a deep interest. And this is like a huge part of crimsons, non appier curriculum. So this is like how we work with students who provide strategy for them during the three years before they apply to college. It's thinking about, okay, how do we help each and every one of our students, it doesn't matter if they're aiming for Harvard, or they're aiming for a much lower rank school, we want every one of our students to develop a deep interest. A deep interest is basically something that you can talk, it could be literally anything, but it's something that you can talk about, like off the cuff, and you're so fluent in the subject, that you can make someone who has, like, no idea about this subject interested in it. So it's like, you know, it would be like if I started talking to you about like the Triangle Shirtwaist fire in the 1920s, in the United States, and I told you all the reasons why, like that actually led to the, you know, labor movement, and you know, for that reason, like, we have unions today. And you know, it's like, like just diving into one like particular element of something very deeply, very passionately, and then pursuing it. So it's like, you build that knowledge, and then you got to do something with that knowledge. And so I gave the example earlier, right? If you're like, interested in biology, you go and find a lab or you find, you know, somebody locally, somebody close to you who is doing something related to the field you're interested in. But you know, it can be anything like, I there's this great example that I love, that I think about a lot where so this girl was, we can call it, Rachel, she had a deep interest in teaching. And so she was looking for opportunities to get involved in ways that other students aren't. And that's the key initiative, right? So it's like, what is everyone doing? And if everyone's doing that thing, try to find something different. Like, that's really, you know, you want to differentiate yourself. And so she was looking around, okay, I'm really interested in being a teacher. What can I do now? I'm just in high school, what can I do now to engage with that interest. She discovered that teachers at her local elementary school so that, you know, school for younger grades, they had tons of tasks and chores that they were doing, you know, these teachers are staying hours after school, to complete those tasks on behalf of their students without any assistance. And of course, you know, school budgets being what they are, they didn't have any money to hire anyone. So there's no one to help them. And there was no structure for a volunteer program or anything like that. But she went to the school regardless, she went She talked to a teacher there. And of course, as you can imagine, right, that teacher was more than happy to have her help out. Because you know, the teachers totally overwhelmed. So every day after her own school is is over, Rachel would go over to the elementary school and help for an hour. And so that's like, that's the beginning, right? That's the beginning of something. Not everyone is doing that that's something a little different. And it's engaging with her interest. But how do you how do you go deeper than that? Even? How do you build on that? And of course, Rachel did that. So one day, Rachel was, was talking with with one of the main teachers that she helped teacher wanted to start, like an after school reading program for her kids. But of course, as you can imagine, she doesn't have time right now. She's a teacher, it's no time to start it. So Rachel decided to do the research herself and figure out okay, what are some like other after school reading programs that have worked at other schools, she read about it. And with the teacher support, she went presented to the principal of the school, here's the program, I want to start, you know, here's how I'd run it. Here's the curriculum, here's how kids will get involved, I'll do the logistics, you know, and the principal proved it. So the end result was she ended up running this amazing program, and an elementary school that was like, completely unique, that you know, didn't exist in her community and benefited these kids enormously. So look, that's not gretta tunberg. Right. Like, that's not some kind of international huge thing. And yet, that's incredibly unique and incredibly special. And, you know, I mean, that level of engaged, that's years of work, and that level of engagement and serious commitment to her interest. I mean, that's like she, you know, she's going to Harvard like, that's the, in the end, she she got into all of this school, she applied she's super, super successful applicant. So what I'm talking about developing a deep interest, that's really the kind of thing I'm talking about is like that level of focused pursuit. You don't have to be a genius. You don't have to be wealthy. It really like the I think, in general, the the requirements and prerequisites for that are pretty low, you just have to be interested, you have to be engaged, and you have to take some initiative, it's not just going to come to you. Does that make sense? Podcast Host 16:59 Yeah, no, it does. Absolutely. And I think it was a fantastic example, one thing that I'm interested in is that if students are looking around saying, okay, I want to differentiate myself, I want to do something unique. But realistically, I only know of students in my school and what they're doing, right, and there's not many other students, like say, for instance, here in Australia or elsewhere around the world, where there's not a huge amount of students kind of aiming for no yo IV leads, etc, right? It can be a bit difficult to kind of figure out well, what is everyone else doing? And how can I differentiate myself? Because you might say, Oh, look, I'm going to develop my own app, because no one else in my school is developing an app. But when you go to the Harvard application office, or have admissions office, there's a haich D students who have created an app, so you don't really stand out. So how would you go about as a student figuring out what is unique? What can differentiate yourself from the rest of the cohort? Or the applicant cohort? Is it like talking to a teacher who's been there for a number of years and may have more experience? Obviously, like, at crimson, we have a good overview of students from all around the world who are applying and kind of give students a bit of a leg up there for sure. But is there any tip that you would have for students to kind of figure out what exactly could be their niche? And how could they find that? Gabe 18:12 Yeah, I think it's a great question. So there compliances that, I think, first of all, you know, there's the first question of like, you know, and I've come across a lot of kids who are like this, who are like, I don't have a passion, like, I'm, I don't know, I want to do in life. I don't know, like, you know, some kids love music, some get, you know, but some kids just don't have that, you know, they they get to high school, and they're like, I haven't found my thing yet. And I think there's, you know, there's a thing that I call the passion myth, which is this notion that like, if you don't feel this somehow, like innate connection or innate love, for one thing, then you just like, don't have passion, you never will. It's just not true. That's not how anybody works. You know, I was fortunate, because my parents introduced me, like, I started playing music. When I was two years old, started playing drums. I started playing violin when I was five. So my parents basically helped music to become my passion, I had that advantage. A lot of kids don't have that type of advantage. So get to high school, and they just don't know what they love yet. And that's fine. It's not a big deal. When I'm talking about a deep interest, I'm not talking about something that you necessarily innately love or innately, you know, feel this connection to, it's just something that you have decided consciously, to learn more about to dive into, it doesn't need to be your career, like, you know, this Rachel example that I gave before, she doesn't have to pursue a career in teaching. After that. It could just be that she's interested in education during high school, you know, she can do whatever she wants, once she gets into college, and that's the advantage of going through us college. It's like, you can really do whatever you like. But the point being that like, developing a deep interest is really just about making a decision that you are going to like, basically follow, you know, kind of a winding path wherever it leads, but you have to be willing to take that risk, right. It costs a lot in time. cost a lot in energy to really pursue a deep interest. So I think that's where it starts is being willing to take that leap. And you know, again, a kid, you know, will say, Well, okay, but how do I even know what to take a leap with? And honestly, it's like, tell me one one thing that you learned from class during the last week, what's one thing that you learned? That was like interesting to you, and some kids will pull out a fact from math class, some kids will pull out a fact from science, some will say, Oh, I read this great thing in English, actually, that I really liked. And to me, it's like, all right, there is a starting point, which thing Do they choose? That really interested them? Oh, that interested you? Why? Why did that interest you? Like, what about that was engaging to you, and let's start diving in, like, let's see if that's a thing is that something that you know, has legs that you could really pursue. And again, like, it comes down to the student's own willingness to say, like, this doesn't have to be the end all be all of my life's passion, what I need now is something to build in some, some interest, some area that I'm going to build during these next, whatever it is, you know, high school years, three, four years, and you know, once I get to college, I can make any choice I want. But now I need to find the thing. Now, once you find the thing, then there's a question that you asked, which is like, how do you differentiate yourself from other people who are in that thing? I think Crimson plays a great role here. Because obviously, you know, like, I work with students who are all around the world. So even though my students in Australia may have no idea what my students in Vietnam, you know, are doing or like, what kind of stuff they're doing, I have an idea. So I can help like, you know, provide some guidance there. And, you know, research local opportunities. So that's where Crimson comes in. But if you don't have Crimson, or even with Crimson, like, I don't think that you need that type of perspective, in order to figure out my theory about a deep interest is that if you pursue whatever you are really interested in, like with intention, and via, like taking initiative, you will just end up in unique opportunities. Like I think if you were a student who you know, so let's we can take another example, right? Say your student is just like super academic, and you're interested in math, and you don't, you know, you're not super social. And so you know, you're not going to like necessarily go and volunteer, but you're really passionate about mathematics. Obviously, they're your standard extracurriculars, like the Olympiad, and those sorts of things which are international. And those are great opportunities. And I would highly recommend, like any student who's interested to get involved and that sort of stuff. But there are lots of other ways to and if you choose one area of mathematics as your deep interest, like, when it comes to math, or specific areas of math, there are a few experts in the world on most mathematical concepts. And so if I'm a student in high school, I'm, you know, I'm super passionate about what, and unfortunately, I don't know enough about math to even come up with an example here. It's not my field. But if I'm super passionate about one area, what I would do is I would go and look up like PhD students at a US college that I like, you know, okay, I'd love to go to you pen. So I go and look up like you Penn's PhD program in math, because I'm looking for, in particular, I'm looking for students, PhD students who are interested in like, some kind of, you know, high level algebra. Okay, so I go through the PhD list, and I guarantee you, there's going to be like one kid, you know, one, one student, one PhD student who's interested, I write him an email, that's the beginning of something, right? So it's, again, it's just about taking initiative, when I write that email, right, that's something that my classmates are not going to do guarantee. Like, that's just that they're not going to do that. Because, you know, they're not going to choose the same person at the same school. It's all about like, how much initiative Can you take? How much can you dig in, and kids need to be creative, you know, they need to think creatively. Like, that's part of what makes it a competitive application. And what I was saying before, is, like, admissions officers want to see that you really went above and beyond in your deep interest, they want to see that you pushed yourself intellectually, you know, you don't have to compare yourself to other students. It's really just like, you know, did you keep your heads at your head in your textbook? And you know, just like, do well on the LSAT, or did you do something more, you know, did you try to expand and build? Podcast Host 24:09 Yeah, absolutely. Is there any particular activity or place where students can put their time that you think is generally not worth their time? Because I've spoken to students who have like a marsay, violin and piano, and that's the card that they're going to try and play when they go to college. And my general feeling on that is like, Okay, great. You've sunk a heap of time, I'm sure a heap of time into music, but there's probably not necessarily a shortage of great violinists and great pianists who are applying already. So is there any other example doesn't have to be music, but any particular kind of activities that you think students generally sink too much time in? That's not overly productive in gaining admission? Gabe 24:54 The the broad answer is, I see students all the time, who will Like, basically join a club, and then just participate in the club at the, like baseline membership level, or even, you know, they'll take on some like, kind of lower level, you know, they'll become like the secretary treasurer of some club that when where they don't really do much, you know, there's like not not much responsibility, and they'll sort of hope that like that just the title of that position will like, give them some big advantage or whatever, or just being a member of such and such club will give them No, no, that just doesn't, it doesn't help that much. And the same thing goes for, like, the music thing of like, you know, while I, you know, pass the exam, and I got this certification or whatever, it's like, there are so many 1000s of kids who have done that. And, you know, if you're, if you're trying to apply to Conservatory, you know, okay, sure, you should check that box, right. It's just like the sap like, you know, you need to get a good enough score on the SAP, but no, college is going to look at your SAP score and be like, wow, we have to let that kid that's just not how this works, you know. So it's not a differentiator. And the reason it's not a differentiator is because so many hundreds of 1000s of students do this, they'll join a club at the base level, and just kind of be a member. And it's like, there's no, there's nothing there, you know, there's no substance there, unless it's really meaningful to them. And they've really contributed something big. So I still see this all the time where, you know, students will sort of be like, oh, in order to apply to be a successful applicant, I need to have a bunch of things on my extracurricular list. So I'm just going to throw a bunch of stuff at a wall and like, see what sticks. And so then when we get into when it comes time to put their extracurricular list together, it's like, yeah, I've been in this club for three years, but I've never really done anything, you know, we have a meeting a week, and it's fine, whatever. And I'm like, Well, you know, okay, well, tell me more, you know, did you ever go on a trip? Where did you organize something, you know, for the club? And it's like, well, you know, I did this little event, but you know, I didn't really care about it's like, Okay, why did you spend all this time doing all these different things you don't care about? Like, that's the problem for me is that students just try to do so many things. And they don't really care that much about them. So if I were to give one blanket piece of advice, it's stop doing things you don't care about. Like that is not what admissions officers are looking for. They're not looking for a bunch of crap that goes on a list. Because look, when they receive that, that's how they read it to, like, they can see when you're passionate about something versus when you've just done a bunch of things, because you thought that's what you had to do. They're not interested in letting kids in who do the latter. They want kids who do it, who do the activities they do because they love them, and they dig deeply into them. So when it comes to something like music, you know, you have this question of like, Alright, well, every kid's going to take those exams and get those certifications. So how do I differentiate? And there are like, a million answers, there are so many different places in, in individuals, local community where they can volunteer, you know, their time to teach music, to play music, for a benefit, you know, they could go to a hospital and play music for patients there, they could volunteer with a music therapist, or they could volunteer to teach kids at their local church on the weekend, you know, and those sorts of opportunities can build into something much bigger, you know, and those they can build into recommendation letters and, and, you know, mentors and connections and things like that colleges want to see like, Do you care about something that you're doing? And if you care, dig in, like, do more of that thing. Do more activities relating to that thing? Does that make sense? Podcast Host 28:28 Yeah, absolutely. No, it kind of reminds me of my days playing violin at the old age homes that I had around here in Australia, it's a bit of fun, they love it. Obviously, like COVID has thrown a curveball, I think in a lot of those activities in terms of access to these kind of opportunities. But you know, if you get creative is a good organization here. And that was started by some students in Melbourne called letters against ISO. And it was like students who banded together to write letters to people in aged care, to basically just kind of have pen pals to you know, try and make them feel less isolated in no time where it is very isolating. So Gabe 29:04 I have to say this is one of my students who started is Hannah. Yes. Yeah. I Podcast Host 29:09 didn't know that. That's, that's very funny. I didn't know he actually was your student. That's so Gabe 29:15 cool. And I I can take absolutely no credit for the site. Like this was all all her and she created this. It's an amazing organization. She's done just a fantastic job leading it. But yeah, she's, she's awesome. And that that organization is sent, like 10s of 1000s of letters. Yeah. You know, like hundreds of maybe 1000s of different seniors. And now it's in multiple countries. And it's just amazing what she's done. Yeah. Podcast Host 29:40 Oh, that's awesome. And I actually didn't know that she was your student. And I swear, that's not set up for anybody. No, that's very, very cool. Now, I want to still touch on the academic side of things because I think it'd be remiss of us to not at least address that whole idea of how students can further bolster their academics in the absence Since of the satays, and that kind of thing, I will just touch on that quickly. I know like a PS have been thrown around, we do that through CGA these days, and the students who are looking at you know whether they should really go towards IB or do extra a levels, these kinds of things. Obviously, like, as you mentioned, the extra curricular side of things, you know, if you're a biology student, go spend time volunteering in a marine Conservatory. And that's probably going to be much more impressive for those students aiming for biology courses. But from your point of view, without the LSAT, LSAT, Subject Tests, etc, I think a lot of students are going to be panicking a little bit, what would be your advice in that situation? Gabe 30:38 So, and I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it really does come back to this idea of like diving deeply into your academic areas of talent and skill. So we can start with some basics, you know, you don't have the sad subject test, how are you going to illustrate expertise in certain subjects, there are now so so many online courses, and really good ones, like through edX that you can take, and you can get certificates with them, you know, you can take a Harvard class and get a certificate, you know, through edX. And it's, it's rather remarkable, and I would highly recommend that students do that in subjects that are interesting to them. And I would say, like, aim to take maybe a couple courses that dig deeply into interdisciplinary areas of like that, with that, you know, hover around a common theme. So you know, for example, if you're interested in international relations, I would say, like, take a class on the politics of China, you know, take a class on how like, poverty can offset developments in, you know, burgeoning countries and economies take these classes where you can draw a thematic through line through the different classes, but they're not just all on the exact same topic. Because, you know, a big part of what colleges are looking for is like, interdisciplinary engagement with a general theme. So I love online courses. For this reason, there's online immersion courses from Columbia, these are amazing. They're actual certifications in things like, you know, technological subject coding, there's a great one, a certification from Cornell, that I've recommended to computer science students in the past, you could write a research paper on an academic subject that interests you, you know, to try to dig deeply into, you know, let's say you have a question on, you know, how to create a, like reusable water source, you know, in a, in a, like, village setting that doesn't have a lot of technology. And so you do research on like, what are the existing technologies that could be used, you know, what would be most functional, what's been tested, it's just a random example. But like, kind of engaging deeply in your academic subject, and then trying to publish it. And look, if you can't find a journal, and there are some journals out there for high schools, but if you can't find a journal, put it on medium, like, just put your writing out there, like, you can self publish, it's fun, make a YouTube video about it. Obviously, there's the like, you know, building legacy projects, things that's like apps, companies, you know, this is sort of a now a more popular method of like, illustrating your interest in something. So, you know, if you're super interested in healthcare, you know, building an app that helps people understand the local hospital system, and this, this low boss was particularly, you know, strong for, you know, this type of surgery, and this local hospital has a doctors and specialists in this or whatever, you know, I'm just throwing out kind of random examples. But I think the kind of overarching answer is like, there are a lot of ways to dive deeply into these, like critical subject areas that illustrate expertise, like beyond the SAP, or any standardized exam. And I think tests have always been the least interesting way of doing that. And so now that they're getting rid of them, it's like, for me, it's like, I'm not even I'm not that bothered, I think it's a good thing. You know, it'll force kids to think a little bit more outside the box, you know, actually, like, try to engage deeply with their, their subject areas, we pulled out a couple recommendations at the top, I think are great. Like, if you can take a levels, do it. If you can take AP exams, do it if you can take IB exams, do it. Like, these are all great illustrations of academic skill. But they're not the only thing. There are definitely other ways to do that. Podcast Host 34:17 Yeah, absolutely. But one thing that I am interested in as well is how should students tell their parents that this is a good use of their time, when a lot of parents come from and I was chatting to students like this on the podcast, like parents come from, you know, India or China or like, academically rigorous backgrounds, right? Yep. And then the child's like, Hey, I'm gonna go volunteer at the old age home, or I'm gonna join the Marine Conservatory. And then like, parents, like, what are you doing? Study please like if you're gonna get into Harvard study, and it's a it's a real challenge. So what would you say to students in that situation or to parents in that situation to kind of help them get on the same page? Gabe 35:00 Yeah, so typically what I say is, there is basically so so when I think about Harvard, okay, so let's just use Harvard as an example. Obviously Harvard, you know, is is like the top school, but let's use it as an example. There's something like 60,000 applications every year. So somewhere around that, like 50 to 60,000 applications every year, they had made about 2000 students. So, you know, incredibly competitive. And what you have to ask yourself as a student, and as a parent, you know, of a student is, is there any subject that I'm working in right now, where just my skill in this subject is going to be better than 50,000 other applicants, the best other students in the world? That's the question, because really, what it comes down to is like, at least 10, to 12,000 of the applicants to Harvard, are academically qualified to go there. So already, you have like five to six times the number who can actually get in, like, who Harvard has room for you five to six times that number, who were qualified. So academic qualifications are so far from enough, it's just not enough, because it doesn't differentiate you, you need that. And that deeper digging into your, your subject area, you know, that grade extracurricular, you need these deeper things, it's not enough. Now to be clear, you know, students who are actually aiming for top schools like that shouldn't sacrifice their, you know, academic, their grades, you know, for the sake of an extracurricular, if, if they find themselves slipping academically, I think that always you know, you need to be performing at the highest standard for yourself that you possibly can particularly, you need to be performing like, against your peers, you know, very competitively, because that's when colleges are looking, you know, they're really looking at you versus the rest of the kids at your school who are applying or the rest of the kids in your country who are applying. So, you know, they're looking at your academics in that context. So you need to make sure you're still, you know, being very competitive there, you don't want to let that slide. But it's just not enough by itself, and putting all of your time into getting all the perfect grades. Without any of that deeper, you know, diving into your subject areas, it's just not going to result in the success that I think parents and students really seek. So that's the key. It's that differentiating factor, and it's remembering, like, Look, just getting great grades isn't going to make me look different from all the other 1000s of kids who get great grades. Podcast Host 37:33 The stats don't lie at the end of the day, and I think if parents and students both on the same page with that, and we're like, Okay, then how do we differentiate ourselves? Okay, that's, that's the real key. Oh, yeah. It's been awesome having you on the college chats podcast. And if you'd like a chance to work with someone like a then by all means, jump into the show notes, and there'll be a link there for a free one hour consultation with an academic advisor, who will kind of help you pick your path potentially to the world's top universities. But again, thank you again for joining us on college chats. And yeah, I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Gabe 38:07 Yeah, my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me. Podcast Host 38:09 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes. For show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

College Tips - Comparing Your University Options: US vs UK vs Canada with Bryn Laxton-Coglon

#3 Comparing Your University Options: US vs UK vs Canada with Bryn Laxton-Coglon

🗓 FEB 17, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Check it out. Welcome to top of the class, hear from education experts and get insights from high achievers to learn how you can do the same get into those top schools ready. Proudly presented by Crimson Education, the world's leader in university admissions support. Hello, and welcome to college chats a series from the top of the class podcast. Today I chat with Crimson Education strategist and LSE law graduate, Bryn Laxton-Coglon. Originally from Canada and now living in Brazil. Bryn draws from his own international experience in helping you choose between studying in the US, UK or Canada. Let's chat with Bryn Laxton-Coglon. Hi, Bryn, welcome to College Chats. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself maybe about your background, where you studied and what you're doing now? Bryn 00:49 Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for having me, Alex. So to all the listeners out there, Hello, thank you so much for joining us. My name is Bryn. I'm originally from Vancouver, Canada, I was born and raised in a sleepy little suburb called West van to the west of Vancouver. And I actually I went to a French immersion school. So my school is actually primarily in French. And so sort of from a young age I because I kind of had that bilingual international kind of education, I always wanted to learn about new cultures and study abroad. So that seed was planted within me pretty young, especially with the French thing. I always had my eyes on Europe, and went to France on holiday as speaking French. So I knew that was where I was headed. And then sort of while in school, I developed a particular interest for the social sciences. So a combination of all of those things led me to study law at at the London School of Economics. And really enjoyed that experience that was amazing, surrounded by super intelligent people, and one of the world's most exciting cities, but decided that maybe law wasn't quite what I thought it was. So I ended up working in business management consultancy for a while, but kind of decided I want to have an impact and love to working with young people. So switch to education. And now I'm a strategist here with Crimson. And I help mentor students primarily applied to UK universities, but also sort of Canadian schools, US schools, even some, some Asian countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. Podcast Host 02:23 Wow. So you got like a kind of a wide breadth of experience going from Canada to London. And now being a crimson strategist, where you're helping students to apply to anywhere around the world, or mainly the UK, I guess. But you kind of get this really broad scope of it a little bit of everything. And, you know, with the French language as well, I'm sure that held you in good stead when you're kind of applying for the International bass roles occasionally. Is that right? Bryn 02:46 Yeah, exactly. And just to top it off to throw like another spanner in the mix. I currently live in Brazil. So as if as if I wasn't getting around enough, I live in Brazil, Crimson has an office here. And we have loads of students based on Brazil. So just a little bit more international flavor. Podcast Host 03:00 Do you speak Portuguese? Bryn 03:02 I speak Portuguese very poorly, but you know, slowly making progress. Podcast Host 03:07 And what are you interested in sharing with students around the world today? Bryn 03:10 So I was thinking today that we could spend a little bit of time outlining the sort of main differences between various countries, mostly focusing on US and UK, like, how does that application process work? You know, what is kind of studying in those different countries? Like, what is a great candidate in the admissions officers eyes of those various countries look like? So talking a little bit about the differences between US, UK? And I'll also throw in Canada into the mix, too, because I am a Canadian. Podcast Host 03:43 Right? That's fantastic. Well, I know, it's obviously a big challenge that students have they want to study at some of the world's top universities. And in that conversation, you almost always have some of the top universities in the US some of the top universities in the UK, and to a somewhat lesser extent, but always needs to be mentioned some Canadian universities as well. So what are some of the main factors that you think should go into the decision making process for students? when they're first off deciding? Can I apply to the or should I apply to the US or UK understanding that I know, you know, from my time at Crimson as well, we've had students who've applied to both as well, you know, who've gone into some places like Cambridge and Harvard, we had a student last year got into them another student, who ended up in Harvard and Oxford as well. So it's something that you can apply to both, but it is a lot of work. What would be your recommendations for students if they're trying to decide between the two? Great question. Bryn 04:33 I think starting with this idea of applying to both countries, I also have many students that are interested in applying to both and the students that tend to seek out that option are the students that are brilliant and motivated to go to a top university and don't necessarily care where that is. They want to have a rigorously challenging, stimulating intellectual experience, and they recognize they could get that in the UK or in the US. So for students whose main priority is just they want to be challenged, they want to have like a really fantastically, intellectually stimulating university experience, you know, then apply for universities across the bond. So for those students it's, you can talk about, but what I would recommend, because it is a lot of work is the students be a little bit more discerning with the choice of which countries they're going to apply to. So what I would say is that things that you should consider, firstly, it's kind of going to be like the the type of education that you're going to get, and that the US is famous for its liberal arts program. So if you're, if you're a student who maybe has a variety of interests, you know, you're a little bit interested in sciences, but you're kind of a literature geek as well. And you want the opportunity to explore both of those interests before really narrowing down on your path, the US is a great option, because of the liberal arts program, you get the flexibility to try a variety of different things. So if I have a student who's not entirely 100%, sure which direction they want to go, the US could be a great option for them to experiment a little bit more before sort of choosing the path on the same sort of theme here, Canada is really great for this as well, because they also have liberal arts programs. So if you if you don't want to pay the fees that the US has, or you're maybe put off by extensive extracurricular requirements, Canada could be a great option for you. And you still get the liberal arts experience for the UK, I would primarily recommend this to students who are really kind of academic and they know what their interests are. So as opposed to in the US, we've got this liberal arts kind of curriculum, you can do a variety of different courses. In the UK for most programs, you choose your course before you even apply. And you study that for three years. Yeah, occasionally, four, but usually the US or the UK is only three years. So you've got to be pretty certain that like, this is what you want to study, and you want to study only this thing. So if that's the case, you know, the US or the UK, sort of a fast track for you to really dive deep into your degree, become a specialist. That's what I did. You know, I wanted to study law, I didn't want to do it wait to do it as postgraduate degree in the US or Canada and the UK allied allowed me to dive right into my chosen career path. And so if you're interested in law, or medicine, or dentistry, or many of these professional programs that in the US and Canada are like postgraduate, you can do them right away in the UK, that's a huge advantage. Podcast Host 07:26 Yeah, I think it's a really good point that you make about going straight into something like law that you can do in the UK, which you can't do in the US. It's almost like with students, I think a lot of the time they view just the undergraduate experience. And that's as far as they're looking ahead at this stage. Do you ever kind of chat to students about thinking further ahead, whether they want to do post grad what that might look like? And if they were to study in the US, the post grad pathway might look like this? If they were to start in the UK? It might look like this? Or is that just way too far ahead to plan? Bryn 07:57 No, I think that's a super important question that students have to ask themselves, especially if they're interested in pursuing like a professional program. And they're deciding between the US and the UK, they have to say like, what kind of undergraduate experience do I want? Do I want to sort of get this like really rich intellectual experience, where I'm doing like many different things, and then eventually want to specialize? Or do I want to do that sort of right away. So it's important for them to have that idea. And if they, you know, even if they want to pursue this, like very professionally focused thing at the sort of undergraduate level in the UK, knowing that that doesn't necessarily determine what they have to do for the rest of their lives. You know, Case in point I studied law, and you know, worked in business working krimson. So if you if you want the flexibility and sort of our want to push your career decisions for graduate level sort of decision making us is great. But even if you decide to pursue them in undergrad at the UK, it doesn't determine what you do for the rest of your life. Podcast Host 08:56 For you personally, what went into the decision to go to LSE in particular, because you were mentioning that you were going to go to France potentially and then you ended up at LSE? Was there anything in particular that drew you to London, LSE is like right in the heart of London, was that part of the campus experience that you were looking for that went into that decision? Bryn 09:14 I left something out, I did took a gap year, and I moved, I moved to France and I got my romantic dream you're living in Paris and practicing French, but it was always my intention to go to university in an English speaking country. And so I actually applied to LSE I applied for a deferral for a year once I got my acceptance, went to France and had my phone and came back. And I chose LSE specifically because I love the social sciences and LSE offered this really unique opportunity to be surrounded like exclusively by students with very similar sort of research interests to me, you know, politics, government, international relations, sociology, philosophy, law, all of these things that I think are super interesting and LSE also gives you the opportunity through a course called the LSE 100 to like sample of like a couple of different other social science subjects. And so that was really cool. I got to take a couple sort of like intro sociology classes and intro politics classes. But it was mostly I chose LSE, because of this unique opportunity to be surrounded by other sort of social scientists at heart. Podcast Host 10:17 Yeah. Would you leave me to my next question? How much of this decision between the US and UK should be based on that kind of broad conceptual I want to study in this country versus this country? Or should it be more based on the university specifics like, you know, you got the opportunity at LSE to study around people who have the same interest. And obviously, that's a drawcard that not many other universities in the US could compete with at that same level that LSE could, I feel like a lot of students locked themselves in to like a mindset, or I'm going to study in the US, or I'm going to study in the UK. And then they start learning about these amazing programs at particular universities that might not be in the country that they originally intended to go to. But they've already mentally locked themselves into this pathway. And it can be difficult to change it, even if the carrot on the other side of the opportunity on the other side is really good. And they should probably take it. So what do you see is the balance there between like that country focus versus University specific offerings? Bryn 11:16 I think that's the, you know, the golden question that's there, I there's not really 100% perfect answer to this. And I think the best thing that you can do to sort of hedge your bets is just research a lot at the beginning. And you know, and this is really helpful. And this is I think, where Crimson comes in is that I do a lot of work with my students, helping them decide, you know, where what the best fit is for them, whether that's in the US or the UK, or whether that's a particular program at a specific school. So definitely doing as much research as you can. I think the first step is to like sort of what we said, you know, is, are you more interested in this sort of, like broad based liberal arts try a bunch of different things? Or do you really want to specialize, but even within that, like the UK offers a lot of really, really cool interdisciplinary courses that allow you to try like a couple different courses, the the most, maybe famous, being the politics, philosophy and economics at Oxford, their flagship course, you know, other ones are like human social political sciences at Cambridge, which is kind of a mix of like anthropology, international relations, etc, even Natural Sciences at Cambridge would allow you to do sort of, like all of the hard sciences, so biology, chemistry, physics, so you know, don't right off the UK, just because, oh, you maybe are interested in a more interdisciplinary course, there. Is that still within the UK? So yeah, you can't just say okay, no, I wanted to do ask because I can do liberal arts, you still have to take that next step, and do research into the specific institutions and programs because you might just find sort of the the perfect thing for you. But generally, it's a good sort of directional place to start of like, you know, what kind of education? Are you looking for interdisciplinary, or sort of more academically directional focused? Podcast Host 13:04 Yeah, well, it's a tricky one. And I know that, you know, your research depths probably go far beyond what a lot of other students and we could probably do another whole podcast on the topic of university research, which is something that I might hit you up for eventually. But let's chat about candidacy. Because I know a lot of students are saying, Okay, I'm, you know, a solid high school student I'm doing, you know, getting great grades, getting good extracurriculars under my belt, that kind of thing, where should they start positioning themselves for a particular country in terms of their profile and their application? And how do they know which one they're more likely to get into? Is there any way that you kind of hope students determine based on their profile where there might be a better fit for? Bryn 13:42 Excellent question? And actually, in reality, I should have answered your previous question by saying your extracurricular profile, which is a great sort of indication of which country you would be better fit. Yeah, because sort of exactly as you say, the University sort of requirements in the US and UK are different, they're looking for different types of people. The UK is looking for a scholar who has a very clearly defined area of academic interest, and has a lot of sort of research and, you know, experience within that narrowly defined sort of academic subject that they can showcase that university to prove like, you know, I am interested in biology, I have won national competitions in biology and research in biology on top of my biology class, and thus, you should let me into your biology but very focused, very focused, yeah. Whereas if you have a very focused, scholarly academic profile, probably the UK is a better direction for you to start looking into. Whereas the US they're looking for, you know, leaders, they're looking for people with, you know, a variety of different extracurriculars across, maybe some sports, some arts and community service, where they have shown like, you know, over time, a commitment to these things, as well as like Really big depth and impact. So if you are someone with like a variety of interests, and you know, you're kind of a go getter, and maybe you're on Student Council, and you founded some activities, and and you've got these, like, you know, yeah, founder level kind of things to showcase. Yeah. Last will love that. Whereas Unfortunately, the UK will be like, okay, that's fantastic. You've started this club, we don't really care that much, because you're applying to engineering and we want to know, like, have you done any research on engineering? Talk to us about Yeah, not your charity club. So and, but it's important to know that like, students don't often just have this naturally, you know, people don't have a track record of, you know, experience related to engineering right away. This is stuff that you have to intentionally cultivate. If you don't even feel like you're heading in either direction just yet. That's okay. You know, that's the work that you have to do. And that's where Crimson comes in, and helps a lot too, because we do a lot of that work with our students and help students who plan and create that, Podcast Host 15:59 Yeah, I love that, that it's an intention that you have to have, when you're trying to gear up towards this application process. I think some students feel as though it's kind of like gaming the system a little bit that they are working towards founding these organizations with a box ticking a little bit, they're like, Oh, well, I guess I got to do some volunteering, or, you know, do some volunteering, because that's what my application needs, etc. But really, as he said, like, it's that long term commitment. And beyond the six month stint in, in volunteering, you might be doing it over a two or three year period, on a, you know, probably less hours a week or less hours a month, even, but just as a longer kind of term impact project. So people can see that dedication. Right? Bryn 16:37 Exactly. And I, you know, I want to almost push back against all the people who are saying this is box ticking, and that I think that's a really cynical way to approach this process. In the first for example, extracurricular development for UK universities, some people might see it as, okay, you know, unbox taking and learning about the subject, but I really choose to see it as like, you know, listen, this is something you're going to be studying for three years at university, and you're probably going to be dedicating your career to afterwards, like, you got to make sure you really love this. So let's find something that you love, and that you're really passionate about. And let me help you explore this. And it should be a really interesting process. You know, for my students that are applying to UK universities, I'm helping them, you know, research essay competitions on topics they think are really cool, and they actually want to write about, and I'm helping them create reading lists for books, and like scholars and academics who, you know, they are excited to read about, and you know, a lot of their friends might think like, Oh, you know, you're kind of you being a nerd, and you're lame, and you're sort of reading on the stuff. And so you might be dissuaded from like picking up a book on something you think is interesting. And that's, that's what I think is cool, though Crimson is I'm here to say like, actually, no, like, you have an interest. And let's explore that. And, and that's a really cool opportunity. So for the UK, we focus a lot on, like, really digging into the passion behind the subject and allowing that to come out and explore that. And for the US, it's slightly different. Again, it's not a passion related to subject, it's a passion related to impact and problem solving. So again, you could be cynical and say, Okay, I'm gonna found a charity to, you know, tick a box. Or you could say, like, Listen, you've got, however many years four or five years in high school to where you got free time, you know, you don't have a job or anything yet, you can have an impact here, like you could really see problems in your community that align with your interests, and find ways to use your special talents and your unique abilities to to solve those problems and create impact. And, and so it could be box ticking, or it could be like, Listen, you're a smart, talented person, and you've got potential and let's how do we put that to work, and really help you accomplish great things. And all we're trying to do is channel that into an application. So the application secondary, initially, it's about, you know, how can we figure out ways to unlock your potential. Podcast Host 19:03 It's like building experience for a job, right? It's a similar kind of thing. You know, if you see your dream job, it has these kind of requirements along the way. And it's the same kind of thing as the application process that wanting to know that, when you apply, you're going to have these kind of a set of experiences instead of schools that will make your experience at the college or at the university. And even better one, where does Canada fit in all this? Bryn 19:25 So the reason I've sort of been quiet on Canada thus far is not because they don't have great universities or that's a great place to study. All of those things are true, but because just the the application process to Canadian universities is less competitive, less intensive in terms of the demands of your extracurricular preparation, etc. So Canada is it's a like a liberal arts style program, like I said, like the US, but you don't have to do any of the standardized testing and the extracurricular requirements are pretty relaxed. So it varies a lot depending on the school. That you're applying to, you know, unlike the US and UK, which have kind of common application style programs, Canada, the you know, the application varies a lot depending on what school you're applying to, and what province it's in. So like, I'll take, for example, the three most popular schools, so UBC University of Toronto, and McGill, all have entirely different applications. So you have to submit three applications for each. Starting with UBC, it's like the most holistic one, they've recently implemented this kind of application where you actually have to write many essays about your extracurricular activities, and they ask you some sort of like insight, prep questions, we've got to like, reveal a little bit about yourself, it's much less intensive than the US, you don't have to submit like an activities list with 10. programs, I think it's only five. And and just generally, it's much more about trying to understand you and less about tell us how you change the world. Yeah, the expectations are a little bit less. So maybe a bit of a better choice for people who aren't feeling so crazy competitive, like they want to go to the top us schools. In terms of the other Canadian schools, University of Toronto and McGill, very little extracurricular requirements, the guild actually has none, you just submit your grades. If your your grades are high enough, you can get in sort of University of Toronto, they will have for the most part, you don't have any extra curricular requirements. But some programs might have some essays and things like if they're sort of more competitive, but for the most part for u of t, and Miguel, very little extra curricular stuff, mostly great focused? Podcast Host 21:36 Well, when we are talking about grades, I'll just throw this curveball at you because it's been an issue that we've had to combat here in Australia, in that the national curriculum that Australian students generally set the a TA or VCA, HSE, etc, etc, depending on which state you're in. A lot of students don't know that they can use that to apply overseas, they say, well, it's a national curriculum, I can only use it to apply to Australian universities. And it kind of blows their mind a little bit when I'm like, Oh, actually, you can apply overseas like, it's just as accepted elsewhere, as it is here in Australia. So is there any benefit, though, to any particular curriculum, if you're applying to the US, UK or Canada? Or is it all fairly equal? Bryn 22:15 That is a curveball question. And I think you'd have to be like a proper admissions officer at your particular school to answer it with absolute certainty. Yeah, but I think my short list short answer is no, you can apply to anywhere in the world with any curriculum, and you should not feel like you're being held back. Because you feel like you don't have the right curriculum. I applied to the UK with a Canadian national curriculum, I help students from all over the world, and a variety of different curriculums apply to other countries. And it's, it's not a problem, it's more complicated than to translate your entry requirement, you know, whether your grades meet this kind of foreign systems entry requirements, and it's definitely more complicated. But it's, it's not like necessarily a disadvantage. You know, if you come from some countries with very remote and obscure education systems, you know, you might have a hard time getting those recognized. And some top universities I know, like, for example, Oxford and Cambridge, they actually don't accept applicants from some countries, because they don't actually deem that those, the education that you've received in those countries is equivalent to the UK. So a problem I have with some students is that the South African National Curriculum can't actually apply to Oxford, Cambridge, with the South African National Curriculum, you have to take like a levels or something. So that would be the only big obstacle is just confirming that the university is going to accept your curriculum, but for the most part, I think it's just Oxford and Cambridge that don't accept it, because they're a bit snooty. Podcast Host 23:39 And quite particular. Yes, Bryn 23:41 they're very particular. But for the most, I mean, always check with your universities. But really, aside from Oxford, and Cambridge, I haven't heard any other students having a problem. I just want to say IB and a level are by far the most common and accepted, you'll have the least problems applying with those, but you shouldn't feel held back. Podcast Host 23:57 Well, Brian, is there any final words of advice for students, if they're looking at the US, UK, Canada, they're interested in international study, but not quite sure where that might take them? What could their first step be to investigating this a little bit further and kind of helping them make a decision? Bryn 24:12 I think if you're at this point, and you're trying to decide which direction Am I going to go what's right for me, we talked a lot about, you know, the academic sort of programs and requirements and liberal arts versus focused, but I think also like taking a step back and really reflecting on like, what kind of university experience do you want? You know, do you want to be at a really sort of small close knit liberal arts school somewhere in California? Do you want to be in like the beautiful gilded halls of Oxford and Cambridge, you know, studying a subject you're really passionate about, like thinking kind of more holistically, just about the wider experience that you're going to get at university beyond the classroom. So not forgetting to think about things that aren't necessarily academic krimson has a super handy spread We've got 13 factors that you should look at when you're considering universities, you know, climate size, cost programs, all these different things. So we talked a lot about the academics, which I think are a super important thing. Yeah, making sure that you're considering every experience every part that's going through lived experience. Podcast Host 25:19 100% agree, I think it's fascinating. You know, in my time at crimson, I've come across students who are at universities now or have gone into universities in the past, and it's a university that they originally had never considered. And they get in and they love it, because it does meet a lot of those factors. It is the climate they're looking for it is the size they're looking for. It's rural or urban, or it's like has particular programs has particular professors has a different cultural vibe. So I you know, university research is such a tricky thing. And that's why I'm saying we could probably do a whole nother podcast on it, because even when I like took a group of students to the US on a college tour, we went to a lot of universities on the East Coast, a lot of universities on the west coast. And going in a lot of the kids said, Oh, Harvard. Yeah, I really want to go to Harvard like I'm so what visiting that kind of thing. And we visited all the universities. And at the end of the tour, their answers were completely different. Maybe one girl said, Yeah, you know, I'd still like to go to heart, but really, other girls were like, Oh, no, I felt like a real connection to brown or I felt a real connection to Yale, or I really love the experience at Columbia or UCLA or whatever it might have been like, we went to a lot of universities. And I think that's the the fascinating thing that you know that the vibe or the atmosphere can really be so hard to research because it's like this kind of intangible aspect of the university that you can only really get from talking to students or visiting campus yourself. Bryn 26:42 Actually, one thing, one positive thing to come out of this Coronavirus is that a lot of universities, especially in the UK are offering like virtual open days and tours and stuff, that might actually be a good way for you to ensure students to check out universities and take advantage of this pandemic. Because usually this these opportunities are not available to you from your home. But definitely, you know, think about the the cultural fit as well. You know, Europe is so different from the US, even the UK, the North versus the South. And I mean, I won't even get started about like all the differences between the US states, so, so making sure you're thinking about all of those things as well. Podcast Host 27:17 Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Brian, it's been awesome having you on for students who are interested in working with an amazing strategist like Brynn going to leave a link in the show notes there for a free one hour consultation with a lovely local academic advisor to kind of help you figure out your first steps. And if you want to be a crimson student and potentially get the chance to work with our French speaking Brazil, living Canada born, LSE graduate law student even kind of look like Ryan Gosling. I mean, I know it's a podcast, but I'm sure you've been told that before at some point, right. Bryn 27:48 I have been told that before. Yeah. Podcast Host 27:53 Take it as a compliment. You know, he Ryan Gosling's got some good props. So now if you want to have a chance to work with someone, like Bryn, for sure, fill out that form in the show notes. And we'll have someone reach out to you for that one hour consultation if you request that. So Brent, thank you so much for joining the college chats podcast, and look forward to sharing the episode far and wide. Bryn 28:13 Awesome. Thank you so much. Podcast Host 28:15 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

#33 How a 15 year-old Started a Revolutionary Global Organisation Using These 3 Steps

🗓 FEB 13, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:19 I'm your host Alex Cork and today I chat with the 15 year old founder of BZBUCK and California based student, Komal Vij. Komal started BZBUCK to teach a career oriented curriculum for students of all ages. The organization has now boomed with chapters around the world and nearly 10,000 students learning from his back. In this episode combo takes us through how she got started, the challenges she overcame, and the three steps to take so you can start your own organization. Let's chat with Komal Vij. Hi, Komal, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Komal Vij 00:56 Well, thank you so much for having me. My name is Komal Vij and I'm a sophomore at Mountain House High School in Mountain House, California. And I'm excited to be chatting here with you today, Alexander. Podcast Host 01:07 Yeah, absolutely. Well, sophomore, what does that mean in terms of age? Komal Vij 01:11 That means 10th grade. So I'm currently 15 years old. Podcast Host 01:13 And we're here to chat mainly about your work with BZBUCK, can you talk to that a little bit and what that's all about? Komal Vij 01:21 Right. So BZBUCK is my international organization that makes career and technical education accessible to students from all backgrounds from all locations. And so we have chapters around the world where we introduce the fields of entrepreneurship, marketing, finance, business, administration, and more. So we really do go into those skills that are crucial in life, right that many schools miss out on, and it's starting to get there. But yeah, I started this one, I realized that this was a real problem, right? Even though we're almost there, many, many schools still do not offer this to students. So that is where this idea sprouted from. Podcast Host 02:04 Yeah, like it's been a long standing issue in education, that there just isn't room to teach these kind of life skills. And it's great that this bag is addressing a lot of that. Can you talk me through I guess, what are some of the main you mentioned entrepreneurship, but as terms of like financial literacy, or what are some of the other main kind of goals of this bag to help kids with? Komal Vij 02:24 Absolutely. So we have several projects, which all kind of address specific things. If you look at, you know, the business world, it's a huge term, right? It could mean anything. So we actually allow students to kind of pick and choose what they want to learn specifically, say if a student wants to, you know, if they express interest in the entrepreneurship field, if they say that this is something I might want to do in my future, right, this is something I might, I may want to do. So in that we kind of offer everything that you would need to know, to be an entrepreneur. So like all the basics. So obviously, that would include things like marketing and finance, if you are an entrepreneur, you have to know all of that to be your own boss, you need to be able to manage everything. So we go into that. Some students also kind of choose to just go specifically in marketing, if maybe instead of starting their own business, they want to work, you know, a corporate job in marketing, or if somebody wants to go into finance, so we have different levels in all our fields. So like, especially in finance, a student can choose whether they just want to go for financial literacy, or if they actually want to reach the level where they can pursue a career. But mainly, we would look at the basic literacy levels, what is something you would genuinely like you what is something you would need to know, to pursue a career, you know, something where all the skills combined, puts you ready to just launch yourself in the workplace. So that's what we work on making accessible to students. Podcast Host 03:51 That's awesome. I mean, it sounds like that organization should already have existed, you know, so you're coming up through high school, and you're kind of seeing this gap. What was it that kind of generated that motivation for you to be like, hey, this organization that I thought should exist, something that addresses all these pain points, is not necessarily there. So what did you see in the education landscape that was attempting to address what you are now addressing, but wasn't quite there? Komal Vij 04:20 So as it all started with the same question that you just said, this should have been there a long time ago. Um, so I think, you know, when I started this, I could walk us through like a three pointer thing on how I started this organization, right? I started with, you know, one finding an issue, what is the what is the problem here? And so, I didn't start off saying, I want to start an organization. Let me think of something to start an organization with, I started with looking at this problem, and I was like, Oh, my God, this is a huge issue. And it's not just in a specific location. It's not just in a specific age group. It's, you know, very widespread issue. And so I think it started with that problem where I started to kind of look at the depth of the issue. I've heard people talk about, you know, schools don't touch on this enough, I've heard it. But this is when I, you know, kind of sparked my interest. And I think that is something that's very important, especially if high school students want to start their own initiative. If it doesn't really spark your interest, it's definitely not worth it. Because not going to want to work towards that goal. But so I saw this issue. And then the second step, you know, that I addressed was, does this exist, which most of the time, yes, something will exist to fix this issue. But I researched and I researched, and I researched and nothing quite like this existed. And yes, there are several organizations that touch upon it, like, you know, deca, fbla, Model UN, but they have restrictions in the sense that it's only offered to ages or grades, you know, nine through 12. And so that's when I was like, why isn't there anything setting a foundation earlier? Right? Why can't we really set that strong foundation earlier. So when we do reach high school, it's merely an extension so that students already know what they're doing. You know, obviously, the earlier you start, the better you will be at it right, the more comfortable you will be. So that's when I realized that there's nothing like this, this is something that I really want to do. This is something that I want to see happen. And so then again, the third step was, how will I get from point A, where we are right now to point B. So obviously, we have tons of problems in our world, and many of them we can't fix, right? So coming up with a problem is one thing, but actually coming up with a vision and being able to execute and coming up with a plan. I think that's definitely the most important part. So once I did the first two things, I came up with a plan, right? And not just a short term plan, I came up with a long term plan of if I want to do this, what are my resources? You know, what am I going to ask for help? What is the structure of how I'm going to help students? how, you know, what is the location boundaries? What are the age boundaries. So all of that is when I think when you build a very strong structure, it minimizes how many challenges you'll face in the future. So that is one of the things that I really would like to emphasize on, especially if any other high school students want to start their own initiative, follow these three steps. Podcast Host 07:22 I love it. That's so clear. And we'll definitely go into that third step more, because I know that's like a whole, you do a whole podcast in that third step, right. But what's the timeline like from that idea to where you are now, Komal Vij 07:34 so it's not something that happened overnight, obviously, especially when it's such a widespread goal. And it's, you have to pave your own path, right? It's not like, there's a preset instruction manual for you, or, you know, someone telling you what to do. This is something that was definitely challenging, because I'm trying to figure out how to reach my goal. But alone, right. And so this actually started a long time ago, when you think of the actual origin of it, where my this, you know, when it sparked my interest was a long time ago, I was probably seven or eight, when I first realized that it was a problem. So I was very young, obviously, you know, the actual organization and everything came later. But yeah, the actual origins was a while ago, and throughout the years, I've just been really exploring it, because instead of just, you know, taking action right away, I wanted to, I wanted to make sure that I know what I'm stepping into. And I wanted to make sure I understand the problem. So I have been looking at this issue for many, many years. And I'm lucky to have parents who are also, you know, heavily involved in the workplace, and who can also see the gap between this education and, you know, just throwing students into the workplace after high school or college. So I also got some exposure through there. But yeah, I've just been looking at this issue for a long time. And obviously, as I grew my understanding of the issue it you know, it got deeper and deeper. And so at one point, it reached or reached that depth where I understood that, okay, now I can do something, I have the resources to do something. And so that's when it started. But generally, I have been watching this for a long time, I didn't just wake up one day and say, Oh, I want to do this. Podcast Host 09:19 Really interesting. You had the idea when you were seven or eight. I mean, that's starting very, very early. But I guess when you do have that initial Spark, when you're that young, it does mature over the years, and it's fantastic that is now coming into fruition with this book, but I'm interested in there is two barriers that I think a lot of students have to starting an organization, one's knowledge, one's age, and it's just understanding like, Oh, you know, do I have the knowledge to do this organization? Or am I old enough to do an organization like this? Because I think a lot of people have that preconception that in order to start an organization, you need to be either an adult, at least need to be like 17 or 18 in the final years of school so you can have that quote unquote leadership role, whatever it might be, but what was your kind of approach to this? Did you feel any of those barriers, as you started to turn this idea into an organization or did none of those barriers really come up for you Komal Vij 10:11 100% age has been something that often feels like a very strong fence right in front of you something that restricts you, and I think a lot of the time, people don't see the potential, you know, beyond just that number. And so that is definitely something that I, you know, this is something that I was genuinely interested in, this is something that I wanted to change. But looking at my age, a lot of people were like, you know, how are you going to do that? So it's definitely not been a piece of cake to just get out there and say, you know, I'm young, but I'll do it, right, I think a piece of advice, I would say, is just thinking about it isn't going to do it. If you are genuinely interested in something, and you have an idea of how you want to put it into action, do it, I think you should do it. And maybe you know, maybe the application doesn't quite match what you were thinking, I think whatever you can get your hands on whatever exposure, do it right. So if you're interested in a specific topic, maybe find a professor at a local university who is researching that, or, you know, however small, however big maybe sit in on a corporate meeting, and you know, they might be discussing something you're interested in. So I think it all starts with the willingness to put your foot out there. And just begin, right, if you keep thinking that I don't know how to do this, I want to make a huge organization, I want it to be, you know, international, I want to reach this many people, those are setting goals before you even kind of put your foot out the door. Right? So I think that is definitely one thing I did. It was just this is something I want to do. And I'm just I'm going to start. And so this organization wasn't even meant to be an organization. I didn't think you know, oh, I want to start an organization, what will it be? This started as something I wanted to do. And I said, You know what, I'm not really sure how to do it yet, but at least I can do it in my community. And so people you know, I met every day or younger students in our elementary schools, I started locally, I said, if I can make a difference locally, that's still a difference that's better than sitting in my room and dreaming about a huge organization. And I think that's a pattern that I've seen in many successful student led organization, or many organizations in general, that the person who is interested in making a change or making an impact, they kind of they begin one day, right? And so you can't I don't think you can ever reach what you're dreaming of until you actually start. So that would be one piece of advice that obviously that that I dealt with. But in terms of age, again, a lot of our boundaries are self set, right? So before, even if people weren't telling me, oh, you're too young, I would feel that sometimes I would be like, Oh, I'm too young, maybe I can't do this, maybe I can't do that. I think that is something that maybe if other people are setting restrictions on you, you can't change that. But you can change the restrictions that you're setting on yourself. So I think the most important thing is looking at your resources, looking at the situation you're in and making the best possible thing out of it. Right. So that's what I would say, Podcast Host 13:20 awesome. Well, I love that idea of taking that first step. And I'd like you to take us back to when you took that first step. Was it like creating a flyer? Or was it create, you know, telling a teacher like, Hey, I would love to teach an after school class? Or was it kind of talking to your friends and saying, Hey, you know, who would be interested in this kind of thing? Like, what was your very first step from turning it into action? Komal Vij 13:44 I think my first step was when I came up with a mock lesson. And I went to the principal of a local elementary school, I set up a meeting with her and I said that here, this is something that I've come up with. And I want to know if you'd be interested in incorporating this into, you know, the lessons for some of the younger students. And they actually have this thing called genius hour where every week they have, you know, a maybe like an hour where they devote time to investing in their futures. So other than just the core subjects, what is something you're interested in and kind of developing the interest? So what I came to offer to her was, this is something that I think some students would be interested in. And that was my first step. And obviously, that that is kind of a huge step, right? It's more than just starting a little flyer, you know, something else, but I just I started right, I took that step. And I was like, this is something I have, what are your thoughts? And I didn't show up genuinely knowing that I had the best lesson plan or anything. I just, you know, I generally came to her and I said that this is what I have. What do you think, what are your thoughts? Is this horrible, right? So I had that meeting with her and she was blown away. She loved it, and she Incorporated. So ever since then, the local elementary schools, they've been using our lesson plans. And I think that's when it started. And so again, I didn't mean for any of this to get this big, it started, people loved it parents loved the exposure that their students were getting students, you know, devoted students loved it, they were like, I, you know, I want to keep doing this. I think a lot of students have so much potential, but sometimes they don't have the opportunities to express them, right. They're too busy in their daily schedules and their school and their sports, where they don't, they don't even have the opportunity to maybe some of them don't even know what they can do. Right. So I know one time I met a student, and they were like, I didn't know I could do this. But now I know, I know. So I think giving that opportunity. I saw students, I saw that light bulb, right, I saw that light bulb light up in students. And I was like, Wow, this is awesome. And then from there, it kind of spread like rapid fire. Podcast Host 15:56 Yeah. So that first meeting with a principal, I mean, amazing that the principal said yes. and was like, what, you're probably 14 at the time or something like that. Komal Vij 16:06 Yes. 14. Podcast Host 16:07 Yeah, yes, you afford any of the time I commend the principal for taking that meeting. I know, obviously, you've asked him for that meeting. But sometimes, like in those early days, it's easy for people who have been in education for a number of years, or have kind of that authority in a way to say no, it's easy to kind of decline the meeting or be like, hey, look, it's a good attempt. But, you know, we'll pass the stage because they don't want to be the guinea pig necessarily. But you know, the school put themselves forward and they became the guinea pig. So for any students out there, like, if you go to a different organization, and I always say to students, like a great place to start is other schools, because there's one thing students know, it's schools, it might be their own school, or might be nearby schools, and might be schools that you have your brothers or sisters in, or primary schools, whatever it might be, but start with schools, because they're always a good place for students to start in. And the principal gave you the nod of approval, you've put that first class together. And then I'm going to guess you started thinking, Okay, what else do we want to teach in BZBUCK? And how do I actually start acquiring the knowledge to be able to teach this, you know, to get to a stage that is of particular standard that we're proud of that the students recognizes? Hi, that educators recognizes high that the parents recognize as a good level of education. So you must have been like going through a lot of different resources and trying to acquire all of this lesson plans and all these different things to try and make it a an actual teaching organization. What was that process? Like? Komal Vij 17:34 So yeah, it was definitely ironic at first because it's like, I'm no expert, right? All I'm trying to do is reach, you know, fill this gap reach that goal. So it was ironic in the sense that, okay, I'm teaching people a couple years younger than me everything they need to know about life. Right? So in that sense, it was kind of funny. But when I talk to the principal, I didn't even know she was going to say, Yes, I thought she was likely saying no, um, but when that happened, I kind of thought, okay, if I want to move forward with this, I have to look at how I'm going to move forward with this, right, putting it in a, you know, making an impact in my local community is a different thing. But if I'm spreading it, I have to know what I'm doing. Right, I have to have that knowledge. And I have to know what resources that I'm acquiring all this information from. So that was definitely something that I really had to something I had to, you know, focus on. But ultimately, it came down to looking at teachers who are CTE certified, meaning they are actually certified to teach career and technical education. So that it started at our school, but then it spread to the entire CT network of teachers. So teachers around the nation who are helping come up with these, you know, who have actually learned this or mastered this in college, right. And then also, I'm also earning two associate's degrees in our local college here. And so I worked with some of the professors who also saw potential in this plan, and they, you know, wanted to contribute. And so they also looked at it. And first of all, they're not very experienced in teaching children that young, their professors, but I think the way that they put together the information and the resources that they gave me, that they would normally give to students in their college classes, I took everything that I could find, I've gone to like the deep, deep end of the internet trying to find the most information. And so I've squeezed the information out of every resource I could possibly find, and put it together in a way that's fun, that's entertaining, and that's informational for the students. But that process definitely wasn't easy. Again, having a plan and you know, a vision is one thing, but executing that is a completely different thing. So that was one thing that I think would set apart students who have successful initiatives and students who have just kind of started it but never really finished it. So that work in the middle, the logistics and all of that, that is extremely important. And I think critical, like planning on that end is very important. It could make or break an initiative. Podcast Host 20:13 Yeah. Well, I know there's probably a lot of students listening to this podcast thinking that sounds like a tire job. And how does school fit in with all of this? So you said you're going to associate degrees at a local college as well. A lot of the time when I've asked for feedback about the podcast, students say, the organization's and the extracurriculars sad, awesome. But how do students make this work alongside like, normal school? So what's that been like for you in that bouncing app? Komal Vij 20:42 It's not been easy, I think, because I'm also very devoted to my own education as much as I also want to make education accessible to other students. And that's why I think if this wasn't a cause that I genuinely was very interested in, it will be very hard, which is I don't know how some students kind of come up with a cause that, you know, they're not even that interested in and then they move forward with it. I don't even know how they do that. Because if so, if you genuinely liked something, it doesn't feel like you're working, right. We know that cliche. But I think it can definitely get overwhelming, especially if you have lots of advanced classes, extracurriculars, all that stuff. But I think ultimately comes down to the willingness to fit it into your schedule, right? If you're doing it, for the sake of it just to be a founder, it's not going to be easy. I think one of the one of the reasons that I've been able to do it is because I actually like doing this, right, this is what I would do in my free time, I like filling this gap and making this impact. But it comes down to time management and priorities and how you rearrange everything in your in your time to really be able to meet all of these goals. So also, one thing I would say is make sure you know what you're doing, you know what you're signing up for before you actually sign up. Because that can also lead to like burnout, it can lead to, you know, reaching nowhere and in your school and your extracurriculars. So it's definitely important to think about how much you're taking on and whether you can actually meet those goals. So yeah, before I took this on, if I just blindly signed up, I don't think I would have been able to make this impact along with school and everything else. But I think I the way I planned it, I knew what I was doing. And I just I carefully looked at my time management along the way. And I think that's the only reason that I was I've been able to juggle everything at the same time. Podcast Host 22:37 Yeah, well, I love the idea that you planned, as you said earlier, you have a long term plan for this is not just like a short term starting organization, it's like starting organization, but then try and project forward two or three years, you know, how might it grow? What might it be on my side in terms of work? And how much time would it take for me to make this organization reach its potential? Have you bought any other students in though, to help with the workload at all? Is there any other like staff helping with this bug? Komal Vij 23:07 Essentially, it's me running the international organization. But yes, so we do have students who are also extremely committed to this cause. And so they're helping out in their own chapter. So every chapter that we have, has its own little team where they run like the operation, the local operations. So in that time, then we have like some outreach directors or some people to do help with the workload. And I think, you know, it's, it's really cool, because students who are really good at what they do, right, like a very niche job, they do that full time. So if you look at starting an organization, right, it's like you're an entrepreneur, you're doing everything right at the beginning, you have to fill, you have to wear every cap, you have to complete every role. But I think once you start getting teams, it's interesting, because you can see people who are really good at that one thing they do, and then that entire team coming together where everybody's good at what they do. And that way, it's really, it's really beneficial to the organization, because that way, you know, it helps it helps with the workload to but yeah, I think that way, it's also easier to get other students involved. So I think that's where it branched from work with other students. So I went around trying to find students who also really wanted to do this, or students who also really wanted to do this and had some skill that they can also contribute to. And so it started from there. And now you know, we have teams who help with all kinds of things. And so that's how we're able to manage everything. If I was still doing everything alone. I have no idea how I would be able to do it. Podcast Host 24:45 Yeah, well, I've got so many questions for you based off all these things. I'm like, I'm trying to remember all the questions that keep coming up as you chat. But it's really interesting to look at what your typical tasks were when you first started the organization like what was a week in the life of a founder of BZBUCK in those first couple of weeks, versus what your typical roles are, and tasks today. So I'm going to guess like in those early stages, you were probably delivering the classes or writing the curriculum, that kind of thing. But now you're probably more managing the teams and the distribution of the curriculum. Is that about right or am I completely wrong on that? Komal Vij 25:23 That's my right. Yeah. So. So when it started, it wasn't even an official organization. It was just a little club that I read in my head. And I was like, Okay, I want to do this. And so I was doing everything right, I was pitching it to all these teachers, the principal's I was writing the curriculum, I was coming up with a plan. And again, if you don't have a long term plan, it's just all going to, you know, you're gonna face so many challenges and everything. So I was doing everything. And I think that year, that few months, that was a lot, that was overwhelming, because I was like, My hands were on everything. And so at this point, like later, we got students involved. But at the beginning, those students didn't even know what this book was at the time, right? I just created it, it was just a vision in my head, I didn't even know how to execute it. So that did take a lot of work to get it to the point where other students are hearing about it. And they're like, Oh, I want to join, right? spreading it, just to that point is not easy. So I wasn't everything at the beginning. But then slowly, we got students who, you know, reached out and said, I want to help with this, you know, I like this. And so now, I'm still doing a good amount of work, because I don't, I don't want to dump anything on everyone. So anyone who is contributing to the organization, it's like, as a hobby, this is something they actually want to do, I didn't want to really get anyone involved to just, you know, if they were just doing it for the sake of it, or if they were just doing it for a title or if they were just doing it for their resume, wanted to get people involved who actually liked it. Like if they took an hour out every week, for their free time. If this is what they wanted to do, then I would be like, yes, you know, I would love to have you involved. And so that that's where it started. And then it's less than it was, but sometimes I have to try and keep my own head out of it. Because I again, I really like this cause, right? So I get lost in it myself, trying to grow the organization and reach because, you know, regardless of how big we are, right now, there are still schools out there. And there's still students out there who don't have access to us yet. Right. And so once you get a little taste of that, of that, you know, spread and of the impact you're making, it's really hard to stop. Right? So that yeah, that's but the growth has just been amazing. And the people who have helped out and contributed also are extremely and genuinely passionate, which is why I think it's grown so much to the point that it is today, Podcast Host 27:48 How many schools or students do you think his back has been in contact with since you first started the organization. Komal Vij 27:55 So in terms of like grades, it's a wide range. So right now we're catering to kindergarten through 12th. And so in that range, I would say, around 8000 9000, just in the US. But yeah, it's a it's a good amount of students just within the US, and we're growing a lot every single day. So like every single week, we have a new chapter starting and we have new sub chapters starting. And once we've, you know, kind of established a chapter at a specific school, it grows into other clubs. So like, say BZBUCK, at a specific school, would also start being connected with other clubs at that school. And so then it just kind of grows from there. So like the baseball club at one school might partner with the deca club at the same school, and it just keeps reaching more and more and more students. And so in that sense, it's it's really it's growing faster every every day. Podcast Host 28:50 Yeah, that's fantastic. So generally speaking, though, the chapters, they are teaching students within a club format, so kind of like lunchtime meetings, or are they actually going into classrooms? Or are they actually delivering content through the CTE teachers? Like what's the general structure? Because I think it's fascinating, right? You start the organization after having a meeting with a principal with a lesson plan in your hand type of thing. And then the idea of like starting chapters and doing these kinds of things, that that sounds like very official, very formal. And it's just interesting to kind of understand from your side, how you manage that growth and what you were advising students to do. So I'm going to guess like there was a student from a different school being like, Hey, this is backlinks. Sounds great. I'd like to start it in my school. What do I do next other thing? I what would your advice be to students in that situation? And how did you manage that growth in a way that was both sustainable and kind of stay true to the original model or the original teachings that you thought would work best for students? Komal Vij 29:50 Right, so I think the structure that I came up with shortly after I started executing my plan, this structure was the most efficient way to make sure That, you know, all the, or all the little groups of students because at the beginning students were just reaching out from all over us and all at once on social media. And, you know, I looked at I was like how I manage this, because at the beginning, it was like, Okay, one person from Arizona, one person from Australia, one person from India, right. So how I manage this, you know, they're different time zones, and there's different schools, there's different standards, all of that. And so that's when I got the idea of making, you know, these little groups that are like chapters. And so that way, the official organization has processes in place where, you know, you can officially sign up to start a chapter and someone will get back to you and say, you know, let's move forward with this, you know, how do you want to start at your school? Do you want it to? Do you want to start as a chapter, do you want to start it as a club? Again, is it like a lunchtime meeting thing. So our main goal is to make this education accessible. So that's why we've not set too many restrictions on how we're catering this education. Because obviously, once things go international, things get very different, right. So that's when this entire structure started. And that's when we start came up with these processes that okay, you know, every week, the official organization is going to send over this lesson plan to you, and your team needs to come up with an interactive activity to implement after the lesson, we give the original lesson, but then we let the chapter put their own little spin on it, or their own little touch to it. So that way does stay true to the official organization. And we do have restrictions in place. Like all you can't change everything. But we do also allow them to, you know, put their own spins on it. And then some things like events or webinars, some things that we have are just organization wide, where everybody from every chapter can join. So that way, there's also a sense of unity, but they're also able to shine in their own individual chapters. Podcast Host 31:54 I love that. So you're giving some kind of chance for leadership for each chapter leader, I guess, in saying that, you can put your own spin on this lesson plan and make it your own. So that's really cool. And so you basically have to write out these processes, and then put a sign up form and, and all these kinds of logistics that you had to put together pretty early on, right? As soon as people start catching on that this was something that they would be interested in doing in their school, you're like, Okay, just give me a sec, I'm just gonna write this in, you know, like, how to guide or setting up bids back in your school type of thing with a chapter or a club. And so yeah, that that's really interesting. And how do the teachers get involved in these back? What's their role in this, because I think that's like a really critical part of a organization growing through schools student buy in is fantastic. And I don't deny that that's like a critical ingredient. But having teacher buy in is even a little bit better, because teachers are most likely going to be there longer term than most students. So what's their role in this whole process? Komal Vij 32:53 So yeah, so as you said, there are you know, routes that are most likely to stay longer than students, especially if they're in their later years of high school. And so those include actual workplace professionals who contribute to organization and teachers. So usually how it goes is students reach out saying they're very interested, you know, they follow the process to start their own chapter. And then we require having some sort of adult advisor, right, so like some teacher with credentials to supervise, right, all the operations that are going on in the local chapter. And so obviously, we try not to put too much work on the advisors, but you know, there to oversee everything that's going on, and to look at the curriculum and things like that. And so obviously, that they're like, you know, the main anchor of the chapter, so that if all the, you know, the students who are in the leadership roles, if they all graduate, there's still a teacher who can make sure that younger students can start to fill those roles. And so, in terms of that, we also do have a legacy concept, where once a student, you know, is old enough to graduate. And if they did hold a leadership status at their BZBUCK chapter, then they would pass on the legacy to somebody younger, or somebody they've been training or somebody that has been, you know, shadowing them for the past few years. And so this is something that other organizations like DECA also follow. But that's also something we do to ensure that the younger students who are learning when they reach that stage, then they become the leaders. And so it's like, a beautiful, ongoing wave of learning to leadership, right. And so that that is something that we can actually measure the growth and we can see immense growth, right, if we see a freshman who came into this club, thinking it was interesting, and then they end up graduating as the president of the BZBUCK club, that shows how much that they were able to grow throughout. So it's an ongoing cycle of, you know, learning and then teaching what you've learned, and then those people grow up and they teach what they've learned. And so that's how we ensure that this is not just going to be like a long one. Time thing once everyone graduates, you know, oh, there's no one there. So that's that's how we keep that in check. Podcast Host 35:06 I think it's such a good idea to ensure the continual growth and the continual importance of the club within the school is to have the adult supervision, the, you know, CTE teacher there. And one thing that I think is really important for students if they're wanting to do this, and something that I think you picked up on, is the idea that you don't want to overburden teachers, you know, a lot of teachers are already very busy. So you put them kind of in a mentorship kind of role. But it is related to their role as well. Like, they would want to say students interested in the thing that they're teaching. So students out there wanting to start a math club or wanting to start a book club or wanting to start any kind of club or organization, getting teacher buy in is great, but it's got to be teacher buy in that number one shows the teacher that this could make their job that little bit easier, and that it would have students be more passionate about the subject that the teacher teaches, right? So it's like a win win for the teacher, really, they've got passionate students, and they've got a club that has been bought in, they don't necessarily need to start it, it just kind of is already they have the structures already there. They just need to support it and mentor it. I think that's very, very clever. Did you have any buy in or initially like advice from CT teachers about creating that structure? Or did you just come up with that on your own? Komal Vij 36:25 Oh, I think it was the other way around. So I came up with the idea. And I then I got CT teacher buy in, and I was like, Okay, I got confirmation that this is a good idea. And so obviously, right, when I looked at this situation, um, you know, our organization goal is heavily, you know, we heavily emphasize making this education accessible to students. But then we also have to think about how much load we're putting on the teachers and how much, you know, tasks, were really filling up the to do list. So that's not our intention at all. And so when we look at that, we tried to set it up in a way that it's also benefiting the teachers and their classrooms. So I can give you an example, one of our chapters Recently, there is a marketing teacher. And so a couple of their marketing students reached out to bespoke wanting to start their own chapter, since they're taking a marketing class in their school. That's something they wanted to focus on in the bespoke curriculum. And so when the teacher found out that there's, you know, an external curriculum coming in, and the students have chosen to do that, they've chosen to put their time and effort into this, and teach even younger students, the teacher commented on that thing that students that they might teach years ahead of time are already being taught right now. So it's not only the fact that their current students are passionate, it's the students that they may get into three, four years, who are, you know, starting to learn about it now. So by the time they reach the classroom, they're ready to go, right. They're passionate, they're interested in this field. And most of all, they have a solid foundation. And so now is not the time to you know, in high school is not the time to set that foundation. It's the time where you kind of put your final touches or your last extensions, and then we go into the workplace. So that that is how we set it up. And so far, it's worked really well, Podcast Host 38:10 that's awesome. Well, I'm interested as well as to how many fires you have to put out in any given week or month or what those kind of fires might be, because as an organization grows, and as you as like the head of the organization, I'm sure the buck stops with you, as they say, or the buck stops with you in this case. So I'm going to guess there's some instances where, you know, there might be a conflict between student or teacher or there might be a leadership kind of issue where there's a, you know, a student leader, but they're not doing the work that they should be doing, or whatever it might be. Yeah, what kind of typical fires? Or what kind of typical issues are you dealing with that, you know, might not necessarily be the glamorous side of being the founder of an organization? Komal Vij 38:52 Right? So it happens, right? It happens with any initiative and your organization. And actually, I think that these fires are very, very crucial to the growth of the organization, because they kind of raised these issues in the structure or in the processes of the organization that you would have never even thought of before. And so every time you put out a fire, you know, you can ensure that that fire will never rise again. Right. And so I think that they're very important, but some of the typical things that we have to think about are, you know, some high school students sign up without the genuine willingness to put in the work or the genuine passion for this cause. And so I think the way that we've dealt with that is come up with like a way to find students who actually want to contribute, because there are many, many students out there. And I realized that it's not the lack of students out there. It's just the way that I'm finding these students, right, or the way that we are pushing. Like, who are we pushing this book out to right, who are we really advertising it to? Who are we putting it out there to and so I think that was extremely important because we don't want To be putting this organization out to students who don't really care about it right, or just kind of want to do it for the sake of it. So we found a way to get it in the hands of students who are interested in it. And so in that way, it was the most beneficial to both the organization and organization's mission. Because obviously, when people are genuinely passionate, genuinely interested in what they're doing, they're probably going to do a much, much better job. Right. So I think that that's where it started off. And yeah, usually we don't hit too many. I would like to say I did a good job in planning. We don't have too many conflicts like that. But yeah, one of the biggest ones would be, do they really like what they're doing? Or are they just doing it for the sake of it? Podcast Host 40:50 Yeah, just doing it for resume padding. As you said earlier, I think it's very common theme that student organizations need to be prepared to, I guess, have that tough conversation with some students and be like, hey, look, you know, you've been in the organization for a little while now. And it's great, you got the title, but it does come with work. And if you're not prepared to put in that work, there's other people who are prepared to put in that work. Do you kind of like force people out and say, Hey, you kind of need to step down? Or, you know, what does that conversation look like? Komal Vij 41:18 So it's not forcing people out? Usually, I think we've been I don't know if it's our amazing student leaders, or if we've just been lucky with this. But usually, what we try to do is just bring the situation, you know, surface up, what a lot of organizations do is kind of try and ignore the fact and kind of be like, hey, you need to, you know, get the work done. They kind of ignore the reality that, okay, there's some work and you're not doing the work that you should be doing. And I think that if they joined, they joined for a reason, even if it's not the most ideal reason that, you know, even if it's for resume padding, they could have chosen another place for resume padding, right. So even if they chose this place, there has to be some reason no matter how little there has to be some reason they chose this place. Right? And so I think what genuinely like generally, what I would try to do is bring out that reason, no matter how tiny Why did you join Facebook, right? And what what were you looking for when you join Facebook? And I think when you have that genuine conversation, it usually ends in a really good way. And the person kind of they understand they realize in themselves like, Oh, you know, I actually I did try this for a reason, I think I, I think I should put in more work or so we don't just say like, hey, you're not doing your work, you know, that's not how it generally would go. But I think it's surfacing reality the most, that brings out the passion, even if they didn't know they had it, right. And so every student leader finds that one little thing that they like, so for me, it was seeing that light bulb light up, and every student when they understood that I'm investing in my future right now, right, and this is something that I like doing. And so for another student leader, it might be something else. And so what we try to do is, let them find their Spark, what makes them really want to contribute to this cause. Now, some people may not want to at all, no matter how hard we try, but often, you know, it does work where if you find the genuine interest, they'll do the best work possible. Podcast Host 43:20 Well, that's good leadership, then if you're seeing that issue, where someone's not really doing the work, and instead of, as you say, just pushing them out, you kind of say, hey, look up for a reason. Let's find that reason, because it's there somewhere. We just got to find it. Yeah, that's, that's really good. How do you go about finding student leaders, you did mention earlier that you were kind of running around finding students. And then some students were finding you on socials as well, I'm going to guess that was primarily Instagram. And you're also on LinkedIn and have a great presence there, too. But what have you found as the the kind of biggest factor in finding students, or the biggest way that you've been finding students to join us Komal Vij 43:55 back? So I think it was more looking through the students that are interested rather than me, you know, going to the students. Again, I didn't expect it to be this big, right? I started as a little community thing, and it really grew. So I never, you know, luckily, I never actually had to face that fact, where I'm running around for students. It was tons of students coming to us super interested in this. And you know, obviously, not everybody can have a leadership position, you have to do some screening. And I think it was that where we put in the algorithm of pay, who is really good at what they do and who genuinely wants to help our cause and things like that. But definitely, that's definitely where it started. And social media, obviously, yes. So Instagram, that has also been one of our primary channels for students to get to know us and word of mouth is also huge. As I said, when we establish a chapter somewhere, you know, if the teacher gets involved, the teacher might walk into a staff room and tell the other teacher and then that teacher will tell someone else all over the phone that night or something like that. And so you'd be surprised when something revolutionary like this, that should have been there a long time ago comes up, people start talking about it right. And it really does spread, especially when literally everyone can contribute to this cause whether it's students who are coming to learn older students who are ready to teach workplace professionals who are really ready to give that advice, or teachers who are ready to supervise everything, everyone can have some say or have some, you know, role in contributing to this. And I'm pretty sure that's why it's spread so rapidly. So it's not like I put, you know, extra effort or anything to make it spread, it just kind of took off on its own. Podcast Host 45:43 Yeah, absolutely. What have been some of the more unexpected things that have come up as a result of starting BZBUCK, or some of the unexpected lessons that you've had to learn as a result of starting BZBUCK? Komal Vij 45:55 It happens with everything right? If there's an organization where the founder doesn't run into a bump, then I would be concerned, right, that doesn't happen often. So yeah, it's definitely happened. And I think one of those things would probably be sticking with something as much as you can. So like, the commitment when I went into this, I didn't know it would be as hard to be this young and pursue something like this, right. And that's not only saying that I you know, the workload or anything like that, but it's also saying, you know, how do people look at that number of your age, and just automatically think of some potential associated with it. So that is something that I've definitely struggled with, where I felt like, you know, when people look at me, they just see like a big age here, they just see my age, right. And that's when it came to sometimes where, you know, there might have been an awesome resource, but maybe they didn't see the potential BZBUCK had back then. And so maybe I couldn't use that. And maybe that put up some restrictions or put up some fences. But so age has definitely been one thing that you kind of have to keep pushing, right, you have to show and now, we've had people who said no way back when, who knows, see what this book is, and they're like, Oh, we were wrong, sorry. You know, we'd love to be a part of it. But yeah, in terms of that, you'll definitely run into roadblocks, no matter how much you plan, or you have a good structure. But my piece of advice would be, again, if you genuinely like this, no matter what you run into, you will be able to get through it, if you like it, you will find a way around it, you will find a way over it. And I think again, one other thing that I had to deal with was the workload, it was a lot of work. And this is not something that I was doing with other group of students. This is something that I started completely on my own right, with no adult support, either. This is something that I just I did. And so it the workload was also quite overwhelming, you know, with my classes and my extracurriculars. But there was tons of lessons that I was able to learn through this. That's primarily from the exposure to everything. So just like I said, a while back, putting my foot out there things that I would have never even tried. If it weren't for this book, I think I learned so so much that I will be able to use in the future. So you know, once you get that exposure, I did things that I never would have even thought of. So I think that has been an amazing experience. Podcast Host 48:22 Yeah, well, obviously, you you're going out there and teaching eight to 9000 students. So that sounds like a pretty impressive thing that you never thought you would really be able to do, that you are now doing. And it's obviously growing very quickly as well. What's next for this buck? I mean, I know that obviously, you're expanding internationally, and you're running webinars and doing all kinds of cool things. And you're setting this all up at a time where no COVID is happening. So I think is back the potential to grow is even more when hopefully, students start coming back to school in greater numbers around the world. What do you hope to achieve with this back in the next 12 to 24 months, Komal Vij 48:56 right, so the next steps are expanding, but with different perspective. So obviously COVID-19 pandemic change tons of things, right, especially when we came up with like, the whole chapter concept where they would mean their classrooms or their schools, all of that kind of change, right, and also how we're reaching other students that also kind of change. And so now the next steps are approaching our main goal and our mission from different perspectives. So there's tons of new projects that Facebook has in store that we are going to be employing very soon. And this time, it's going to be more of unifying all the chapters. So since we can all be virtual now, I think it's an amazing learning opportunity to learn from or you know, collaborate with someone your age that's across the nation, or that's across the world. So we're working on come up with the most creative ways, the most entertaining ways to get students excited about this and genuinely passion to get involved. Podcast Host 49:58 Yeah, I think it's super exciting. If students wanted to either follow BZBUCK or get in contact with you, or are interested potentially, in starting a chapter at their own school, how would they best go about that? Komal Vij 50:10 So our main point of contact would be the website, which is Bzbuck.com. So facebook.com is our main point of contact, it has everything from how to contact us and how to start a chapter and you know, everything like that. You can also follow on our Instagram, where we have more recent updates of what's going on in the organization. So those are probably the best ways to get in touch. Podcast Host 50:33 I'll put them both in the show notes as well. And if they want to get in contact with you or follow your story, what would be the best way to do that? Yeah, you Komal Vij 50:40 You can either find me on LinkedIn, or you can go on my Instagram handle as well, which is basically my name. Podcast Host 50:49 Yeah. We'll add all those in the show notes. And yeah, it's been fantastic having you on before you go, though, do you have any last bits of advice? You've been so full of wisdom for this whole podcast episode? I know you were you said you squeezed the resources or squeeze the internet wisdom. So I'm going to ask you before you go, is there any more wisdom that you would have for students, if they're wanting to start something of their own of this kind of magnitude? What would be some of the lessons that you would want to give students before we head off? Komal Vij 51:17 So the last things I would say is, if you genuinely have something that interests you like a niche problem, or something that not many organizations or individuals have done, go for it, you know, don't be intimidated by the fact that no one's done it, it might be because it's a very scary problem, because it's hard to solve. But you know, even if nobody else has done it, do it, because that's just even more incentive to do it, because no one's done it before. And so that and if it already does exist, I would say instead of starting your own thing, for the sake of it, or to have that title, join that large organization, you'll probably make more impact. So if you generally like something look for where you'll make more impact, whether it's starting your own, or joining a larger organization, so don't just do it for the sake of it, because you don't actually want to do it. It's a lot of work. So make sure that you know what you're signing up for, and you genuinely do want to pursue this. But other than that, I've had a lot of fun chatting here with you today, Alexander. And I think that top of the top of the class podcast is an amazing opportunity. And I think it's amazing how students who have already you know, done it can talk to students who want to do even more. Podcast Host 52:30 I know this episode has been fantastic in terms of actually getting down into the details of like, what it looks like to start an organization like this, you know, writing out the processes of how students can start their own chapters, engaging teachers, you know, and just like the starting point of giving a lesson plan to a local principle, and how you turn that idea into reality. I think it's been super inspiring. So thank you, Komal, for sharing all of your insights. And I hope students do take advantage of the links in the show notes as well, and get in contact with you and perhaps even start their own chapter is back wherever they might be from around the world.

Ep#2 College Tips - Oxbridge Interview Insights with Former Oxford Admissions Officer, Hannah Rowberry

#2 Oxbridge Interview Insights with Former Oxford AO, Hannah Rowberry

🗓 FEB 10, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to College Chats and new series of the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and today I chat with Crimson Education strategist, former Oxford interviewer and Cambridge alumni, Hannah Rowberry. Hannah shares her insights into the all important Oxbridge interviews, her advice for students to prepare, and some funny stories that have come from the high pressure interview environment. Let's chat with Hannah Rowberry. Hannah, welcome to College Chats is awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Hannah Rowberry 00:47 Thank you very much. It's great to be here. So yes, I used to be a student at University of Cambridge natural sciences, but since then have been quite a few different things as I was a scientist for a little while, and then as a science teacher for a few years. And I spent most of my career as an admissions officer at the University of Oxford's really enjoyed working with students, supporting them through the application process and then running the application process as well. And then since then, I've come to work at Crimson which has been fantastic. Podcast Host 01:12 Is that like heresy in the UK? Going from Cambridge student to Oxford admission officer, talk me through that. Hannah Rowberry 01:19 Absolutely. The Dark Side. Yes. Yes, actually, you know, obviously, there's this great rivalry, at least kind of perceived between Oxford and Cambridge. And indeed, Cambridge started as professors that you ran away from Oxford and start up their own university. So there is this historic rivalry for hundreds of years, however, a friendship between the two and a huge amount of students and staff. Lots of people have have dual citizenship as it were. Okay, right. There you go. Podcast Host 01:46 I didn't know that. I thought it was like, once you're a Cambridge person, you're a Cambridge person for life, or vice versa. I didn't know there was many staff and students moving in between. But that's good to hear. I guess, you know, the more the merrier, and sharing of knowledge and all the rest of it. That sounds good to me. Now, you're a crimson strategist, nowadays, what does that role entail? And how have you found that fulfilling for you? Hannah Rowberry 02:07 Yeah, it's, it's a great role. So it's sort of spans a lot of things really. So I'm working with lots of different students around the world, supporting them in preparing for an application process in the UK. So that can be anything from just thinking strategically, obviously, as a strategist, in terms of their university choices and cost choices, but also thinking about things like their qualifications, and their super curriculum, say things that are doing to kind of boost that profile in terms of developing that interest, and and deepening those as well in preparation application. And then also specific aspects of the application process, say, preparing personal statements, and thinking about some admissions tests and interviews, and sort of working towards getting ready for those and getting students feeling comfortable and confident with application process. When the time comes. Podcast Host 02:53 Are you the kind of strategists that you wish you had when you were a student applying to Cambridge? Hannah Rowberry 02:59 Absolutely. I mean, I didn't have anyone like that when I was applying. So I grew up in rural Yorkshire in the UK, and my lovely kids didn't go to Oxford, Cambridge, really, where I grew up, that wasn't really an expectation for students there. And so I kind of made it up myself, really, I was my own strategist, in terms of preparing for that, but I had no no expectation that I would be getting to Cambridge. So it was very, very exciting to do so. Podcast Host 03:26 Yeah, I bet I bet. Well, we are going to be talking about one particular element of the application today, and that is the Oxbridge interviews. Now these have taken on, I guess, like a kind of mythical status around the world for how challenging they can be. I've seen some blogs about the kind of questions that students get depending on the courses they're applying for. But for students who may not know too much about the Oxbridge interviews, can you give us kind of like a general introduction as to what they are? Hannah Rowberry 03:52 Sure. So it's quite an important part of the application process for like Oxford and Cambridge of aspects as well. But this is the kind of key element in terms of testing a student's teachability. So a lot of people get very nervous about interviews, and think that it's meant to be this sort of nasty, difficult tests, where you'll find lots of impossible questions or bizarre things that you couldn't possibly be empty. And that's not the intention at all. And so the nature of interview is actually a mock tutorial on mock supervision. So oxygen came into different words. But basically, this is the small group teaching, which is typical for how teaching happens in Oxford and Cambridge. And so they're testing the students suitability for that kind of teaching, When are they going to flourish? And that kind of environment, the nature of questions will often be that it's something that you perhaps haven't come across before as a new scenario, but something where you can apply your existing knowledge and skills to to sort of work through that question. So it might be something where you don't have an immediate answer to it, which often is why then if you see you know, blogs about interview questions, they are completely bizarre that are completely impossible, and it can be a little bit of quitting, because they can completely out of context have no sort of single standalone question that you just have to ask. I'm 30. But Robert, that'll be a sort of starting point for a discussion, you might not immediately come to answer. But actually the tutors will be sort of giving you prompts maybe giving you questions or new information to help you work through that. And they're seeing how you respond to that effectively how you respond to that teaching. And so whether you're going to be a good student for them. Podcast Host 05:19 Yeah, so what kind of dictates a well done interview? Is it been super chatty? Or is it been super knowledgeable? Like, what would a student have to do to leave the interviewers wowed after you leave the room? Hannah Rowberry 05:33 Yeah, really good question. I think there's no sort of typical student. And in that sense, I think a lot of people think that they even need to be very extroverted, very opinionated, all those things. None of that really matters. You know, ultimately, these interviews that they're interested in your brain, they're interested in finding out what's what's going on in there, and sort of finding out about your intellectual curiosity and flexibility. I think the key thing in terms of wowing interviews, I mean, obviously, being knowledgeable isn't gonna be a bad thing. But actually also being kind of intellectually curious, intellectually open minded. So again, these questions might be things you haven't come across before, but actually kind of approaching them with an open mind and thinking, Okay, you know, how, how can I think about this? What can I do about this? What do I need to find out to be able to work through this, so actually, a student who listens to the interviewers will impress them. And since they're taking board all that information, and giving, also a student who, you know, isn't afraid to try things out, and actually sort of speak out loud, often advice I give to students is sort of say what you're thinking, because ultimately, the interviewers want to see that thinking process such as saying, you know, no, I'm not sure. But this is what I do know, this is what I'm going to try here. Yeah, that's a really useful thing in sort of showing that thinking process to the interview. Podcast Host 06:46 Right. And I think I've heard from students in the past that the interviewer is not necessarily looking for a student who knows everything, right? They're not looking for correct answers, because there really is no correct answer to a lot of the questions. They're mainly, as you say, looking for that thinking process and that thought process. So to do that, well, as you said, like talking through the answer is perhaps a good tip. Are there any other tips that could help a student demonstrate that they are thinking their way through these questions in an intellectual manner that the interviewers are looking for? Hannah Rowberry 07:18 Sure. So I think, certainly explaining themselves is really important. And also, again, kind of having flexibility in terms of information, often a common error for students is thinking that to kind of show off, they need to doggedly stick to their opinion and need to be like, Yes, I can argue well, because I know what I'm saying, or I changed my mind for anything. And actually, you know, that's not going to be impressive in the sense that they want to see that you could maybe change your mind in new information and actually take that on board. And so again, sort of absorbing information as you're going along. Also not being afraid to sort of go back and correct yourself in the sense that it's quite common. In an interview that you might have said something earlier that you gradually realized later on was rubbish. Yeah. And actually, rather than being like, No, I was brilliant, nothing was wrong. I've realized what I said back then wasn't quite right, kind of go back and you know, took that through again. And again, it's fine, also fine, you know, not to have an immediate answer. And it doesn't mean it's actually enough to take a moment to think these are these are hard questions, these are things that you're going to have to use a bit of bit of brainpower about. So it's fine to take a beat. And think that through and also just for clarification, from interviews, interviewers are human beings, they're fallible, they might not have the perfect question. They might have asked it in a really rubbish way. And so to say, Oh, you know, could you repeat that? Could you say that in a different way? Could you explain what this means? And that's perfectly acceptable? Well, I'm actually you know, it's impressive to interviews that you're kind of really thinking things through. Podcast Host 08:46 Yeah, for sure. Now, I know this is more like a logistics question regarding the interviews, but I'm not quite sure what happened during the last interview round because of COVID. And I know there's always been debate around the value of going on campus versus doing it virtually versus I believe, you can also do the interview in Singapore, as I understand. So what are your thoughts around like the logistics of actually sitting the interview? Hannah Rowberry 09:11 Yes, obviously, no last round are different from usual UK was in full lockdown at the time. And so all of your interviews were remotes in normal years, and hopefully in three years, a situation if the majority of interviews happen in person in the colleges, but obviously students sort of from overseas aren't expected necessarily to travel all that way. Occasionally, do you have students who want to come in person I think I had one student come from Australia, once for us, that's a long way to go. Most students outside of Europe would be having remote interviews in terms of the sort of situation for students and what's best for them and I actually used to run the remote interviews from the colleges that I worked in. It was always a great, great phrase so students that I knew that I would say you know, it is a slightly different experience from an in person interview, you know, you aren't quite as face to face The same way, you don't get quite the same interaction of interviews, that's a slightly different thing. But that doesn't mean that you're at a disadvantage. If they're interviewing you, they want to see, like the student, they will do everything to get all they want out of you and see what's going on in your brain. But yeah, it's a slightly different experience. But now now everyone's happy to be the same for everyone really, um, in terms of like the overseas in person entities, that's just a Cambridge bangs, Oxford don't do that. And although they do have a sort of a big set up in Singapore for my interview, so it's quite a thing that remote interviews, and Cambridge do breaks them in person overseas interviews in a few locations. And again, that can be a good opportunity for students to have that experience. Although you might be getting different interviews then from the sort of main cohort of students. So yeah, roundabouts in terms of sort of what's best for students in that respect, Podcast Host 10:50 I remember chatting to one student who went there, and she wanted to go there just to have the campus experience as well as the interview on campus as well. So it can be beneficial. I think, if you're planning on staying there, if you haven't been to Cambridge, or Oxford, before, I was lucky enough, I actually went in 2019, I think and just as a tourist, and hardly went and did the Oxford tour and the Cambridge tour and love both of them. Is the interview style different depending on the university? Are they looking for, like different things? So say, for instance, you're a student wanting to study science, for instance, would you prepare differently for a Cambridge interview as you would an Oxford interview? Or would you prepare fairly similarly? Hannah Rowberry 11:28 Yeah, they're pretty much identical in terms of how they operate the interviews, I would say, I mean, there's some logistical differences in terms of how they work. And so candidates tend to do interviews in one day, but each student still might have two or three interviews, but it'll be in a relatively short space of time, you might also have adding to the tests or activities on the reading to do prior to the interview, that usually happens in a more condensed period. That said, students obviously still can stay overnight in the colleges, if they have come in from overseas and Cambridge, and Oxford, it's a slightly longer process. So you still are likely to have two or three interviews, but maybe more, if you're going to stay in Oxford for the process. And it usually happens over the course of maybe two or three days. And so students will be kind of in there for the long run. And it's kind of nice experience of hanging out in the college, you'll get to know the other candidates. Usually they're putting on kind of socials and activities. They have lots of lots of student helpers in Oxford, and come and come hang out with me. So it's quite a quite a fun time. Often, this is December around Christmas time, I've only ever it snowed. A lot of fun with that. But it was it was quite a good time. So yeah, different experience with the auction process, but introduce themselves will be the same and have a slight difference toxic is that he might be interviewed by more than more college while you're there for interview. And so Cambridge, you'd only be interviewed by the one that you'd apply to Oxford. Everyone has a good luck. Yeah, so sat around, and you don't necessarily know in advance, which colleges those are going to be. So you'll know your first one, but you might not know, maybe one or two other colleges that you're going to go to. So it's a bit of a bit of a mystery talk in that respect. Podcast Host 13:04 Right? That sounds pretty fun. Well, what's one of the most common questions that you get from students and or parents about the interviews? Like you're a strategist, you're working with this student throughout their entire application process? If they were to sit down and say, Hannah, we're looking at the interviews, this is my main concern, what is that main concern that you often hear? Hannah Rowberry 13:23 One of the biggest concerns? Is it going to be scary? quite nervous about interviews, that's completely understandable. You know, it's a big important thing about the application process being nervous is entirely fine. But I would say that there's nothing really to be said about the nature of the interview, as I said, is that it's meant to be the sort of mock tutorial, it's not meant to be this nasty test, you're not expected to know the answers. If you already knew everything, you wouldn't need to go to university to get things wrong, also interviews, humans that have strong memories of my time and the things that went wrong. And that wasn't the students introduce themselves, and say I had wanted it and they were just completely missing. And we really worried that something terrible had happened, we were like sending people out to try and find them. And just just let them make mistakes. They're not these like, you know, higher beings. So don't worry, you know, these people, these people are normal. These people make mistakes, and actually know that there are also people who love your subjects as well. So they're gonna be super excited to meet you. You might be doing quite a niche, academic field, they might not meet many people who like the same thing that they do have a student who's like, yeah, this is what I want to study, but a nice experience for them as well. So I would say certainly from from my experience onwards from having been a student and having gone through the interview process, the ultimate Cambridge in These are probably the most exciting and interesting interviews you'll have in your life until you go into business for yourself in five years time, right, right. weakness. You're debating a subject, you're talking to people who are at the top of their field, you know, the best people in your subject ever. That's pretty exciting opportunities out. Podcast Host 15:22 Yeah, I mean, I know, if I was a student in that situation, I would be super nervous waiting for the interview, like in that kind of five minute beforehand type of scenario. Actually, I was talking to a student from Sydney, who worked with us for a while and got into Oxford. And he said he was waiting outside the room. And the door was slightly ajar. And he could hear the interview going on before him. And he said, the the poor kid before him did terribly, or what he thought, you know, did terribly. And it just made him like 10 times more nervous, like his heart was already in his throat. And he gave he what was going on. And he now wonders whether or not that was like a deliberate tactic by the interviewers, just to kind of scare the students coming in, you know, straight after they leave the door just slightly. And, yeah, that that was not a good experience. But once he got in and settled and started realizing, as you said, they're just people, he relaxed into it, and ended up getting it, which is fantastic. Now, in terms of preparation, what would you recommend for students to do as like preparing for an interview that changes all the time, right? Like it changes depending on the day or the interviewer or their subject? Like it's, you know, it's a moving target. So how do you prepare for this? Hannah Rowberry 16:38 Sure. So I mean, I think there are obvious things to do in the sense of actually just being comfortable with the things that you should know. Expect to learn extra stuff, to know anything beyond what you've done at school. But feeling comfortable with everything that you have learned in an irrelevant school subject is pretty humbling, it's not going to get you to do a revision. Also, I think just kind of familiarizing yourself with that process. Like I say, don't feel nervous, obviously, that's natural. But actually being aware of what's going to happen being prepared for that means that you're going to feel a little bit more calm, you're gonna find out what this is. And there are lots of breakouts and lots of colleges have produced nice look at videos of what videos of what interview should look like. And you can sort of see, see what it looks like. Also, you know, just getting comfortable with chatting about your interests, chatting about academic matters and what you think about them. So find find a willing victim. You can tell all your favorite things, but subject playing the difficult bits to them. That's really easy, essential as well. That can be a useful process. I bet you do that plenty, right. I love all my favorite things I love I love interview. I love working through interview questions. Beautiful in how they work. Being like this is really scary. Okay, this is something that's accessible. It's something we can work through. Actually, I have I have my own door ajar story. So when I was my own into payments over many years ago, the door was ajar. And I was saying the previous student wasn't there anymore. And they were talking about me, which is pretty horrifying. So they were talking about my application. And they said, Oh, you know, good grades. Let's look again. Let's ask you the hard questions. Yeah, I was I was a little bit shaken. But actually, that was fine. Yes, the questions are challenging, actually. They were enjoyable and helped me work through more difficult and obviously, I got it. Clearly, but takeaway from that, is that yes, challenging. But actually, if you're, if you have an open mind to what's being asked, then you you're right through that process. But yeah, don't don't be put off by things where the interviewer say, Well, sorry, I got completely thrown like this question of interview because often interviewers will ask what they think is like a sort of settling question like how was your journey? Or you know, what, do you have a breakfast like that? And they misread between my school from where I lived, and they were like, Oh, no, did you have a good journey from this town? And I was like, that's not where I live. This question should not contradict. The first question. was a student was so nervous that interviews came out and called the name for a student to come into the interview. Wasn't the student's name. Isn't it Nice. I didn't tell him but he got it wrong. They just carried on and consummate professionals. Yeah, they just went for it. And so I was like running into this. But I was quite worried because the student then officially, from my point of view, had gone missing. hadn't turned up. In a lovely interview, just gone into the student, he was none the wiser, but it was it was very kind to him and got through that. Podcast Host 20:25 Fantastic. Well, we were about to wrap up. But before we do, what would be your one or two top tips for students to stand out from the crowd. Of course, this is the top of the class podcast, we've had some amazing students that we've been interviewing over the last 3132 episodes now. And you know, a lot of these students standout mainly through pretty amazing extracurriculars. But what would be your advice for students? If they were like, okay, competition's pretty fierce? I want to make myself stand out? How would I best do that? What would be your advice? Hannah Rowberry 20:58 Yeah, I think at a very basic level, it was just finding something that I really love, and exploring kind of broadening my horizons. And ultimately, you want the subjects that you're going to apply for that you're going to study at university to be something where, you know, perhaps, you go home to your family, and you tell them everything that you learned in that thing today, at school, or, you know, you read a book and you like, run downstairs and say, Oh, I found this out, I want to tell you about it. That's how you should feel about it. And actually, if you have that level of enthusiasm, and that is something that's gonna shine through in the application process, that's something that's going to come through in the personal statement, that's something that's going to come through it interview, and you know, people who are looking at those are going to be able to see that and are going to see, okay, this is a student who loves this, who is going to be motivated to continue this through their studies. And I think again, sort of specifically then within that aspects, like the sort of personal statement in the interview, there are areas where you really can shine and sort of show where your strengths are in that respect. And so I suppose, within a personal statement, obviously, I've been watching podcasts, and I've seen some really inspiring students, and I think they're wonderful, but not every student has the opportunities to these sort of experiences, however, can have relatively separate experiences, and still have a dazzling insight into them. And I think that's the key thing in terms of shining as a student, is that I, one of the best pencil statements I read was from a student who'd watch a TV show political comedy from the UK called the thick of it. And again, I'm not necessarily advocating that you should write about TV and universal payment. But this one was fantastic that he was saying, you know, what he learned from that? What inspired him from that, and you know, all the books that you've read about, on the basis of that inspiration, but it was it was just very, very genuine. And actually, his insights on that was so so fortunately, he was showing this thinking skills that universities are going to be looking for on that basis. So it's not not what you've done, but what you got out of it, what you thought about it, and so showing depth before. Podcast Host 22:51 I think that's such good advice, and I can't believe I've worked at Crimson now for nearly What is it almost five years now. And that is the first time I've heard that actually, kind of, you know, in that civil term, right, it's not about the heights of your experiences, it's about the kind of depth of your insight more so, you know, the access to these kind of amazing extracurriculars might not always be possible, you know, particularly now in COVID, when half the world's lockdown, it's very, very difficult. So oftens, about the depth of your insights is what will really make or impress particularly interviewers. And I think you know, that that kind of subject specialists, interviewer, right, they're really looking for someone who has thought deeply about the subject. And it's sometimes hard to think deeply about a subject that you might not have studied much of school like astrophysics or something like that, right. But even if it's like watching a cool TV show, and getting some insights from that, and the books, of course, let's not forget the book. So it's a very important ingredient there. Right. But still, I love that I love that I think that's such a good takeaway for students. And I'm sure students would apply that lesson they would be held in good stead for their application, or Hannah. It's been an absolute joy chatting and I hope students have learned as much as I have about the Oxbridge interviews. And of course, if students want an opportunity to work with someone like Hannah, there is going to be a link in the show notes for a free one hour consultation with a lovely local academic advisor as well. Thank you again, for joining us on the college chats as part of the top of the class. I don't want to get confused with all these series names. But either way, it's been an absolute joy having you on and look forward to sharing your insights about the Oxford interviews far and wide. Hannah Rowberry 24:28 Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

#32 From Failing Math to the Best Selling Author of Advanced Calculus Explored

🗓 FEB 6, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Kwok. And in this episode, I chat with Hamza Alsamraee, we chat about how he went from failing at maths to writing an Amazon bestseller about advanced calculus, how he built one of the largest online math communities and what you can do now to develop a love for any subject outside of the classroom. Let's chat with Hamza Alsamraee. Hamza, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's awesome to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Hamza Alsamraee 00:46 Sure. Thank you for having me on. So I'm Hamza Alsamraee. I'm a gap year student mainly interested in math and communication and math education as well. I run daily math, it's the biggest, I think, math page on Instagram. And I'm also the author of two books, Paradoxes. And Advanced Calculus Explored, both of which sold combined, there are 5000 copies. They're both in math. Podcast Host 01:10 Yeah, so maths is the real passion of yours. And you're also known as Iraq's Einstein as well! Hamza Alsamraee 01:17 I didn't pick that title. So it just happened behind the scenes. So a TV channel reached out to me, I'm originally from Iraq. So that's my birth country. And a TV channel just happened to reach out to me, they wanted to do a documentary about kind of how I had my first book, I published it, and kind of my journey and discovering my passion for math. And really, it was, it was a beautiful thing to do. It was lovely. Even though it's a bit tiring, at times shooting whole documentary, it took about three days to fully shoot, but eventually came out November. And that was the title that they came up with the rock science side. And I'm really proud of it. Podcast Host 01:53 It is obviously like a pretty high bar that they've set for you. And I guess like when you start putting that in a documentary and start putting that further and further out, I guess people's expectations of you potentially go up as well. So what's it been like to kind of have that documentary come out? And then I guess people's perceptions of you know, what you've been able to do in the last, you know, couple of years of high school and writing these books and these kinds of things? Do you feel like it's a high bar that you're happy to have? And you're able to keep striving towards? Hamza Alsamraee 02:21 Definitely. I mean, I'm the type of person who sets high bars, even if I know, they're practically impossible to achieve. I played football in high school, American football, and my coach had this one quote that really stuck with me. Aim for perfection. So you can be excellent on the way there, right? So you'll never get to being perfect. You'll never get to being maybe the best of the world at something right? I sign maybe was the best at math and physics, mathematical physics. And maybe you'll never get there. Right? But just aiming for that goal could be in and of itself, something that's very meaningful to you and could be what keeps you going, what keeps you doing what you do? Podcast Host 02:56 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, let's go back a little bit. So take us back all that way to when you first started feeling that connection to maths and who helped you cultivate that love of maths and how did it start playing out in different ways for you? Hamza Alsamraee 03:10 Yeah, so I didn't you always know that I liked math when I was good at school. But you know, nothing extraordinary in elementary school, even you know, when I went to middle school was nothing that set me apart, I was always interested in patterns. And that's what really brought me into math is kind of pattern finding and solving for patterns, just discovering patterns all around me. So I soon discovered that that passion for patterns was math. And eventually, I moved to the US around six years ago. So I would have been in seventh grade. And when I first came to the US six years ago, I went to a school in Inner City, Philadelphia, which was severely under resourced. And eventually I moved out of that school when I went to a charter school that was much more academically rigorous in Michigan. When I went there. We were learning stuff about linear equations and solving them. So right now pretty simple stuff. But back then, when I was in middle school, it was very, very hard for me. And first quiz that I got, I basically just failed it. I think, you know, I got I got I got an app, right. And from there, I just was determined to never be behind. I hated being behind in class and being lost. That was the feeling that I dreaded the most is just going into class and not knowing a word of what the teacher said. And that was how I fell back then. So we had this website called Excel. It was kind of a Khan Academy of its day. Cow Academy was still there, but it wasn't as developed as it is right now. So I Excel was our homework website. We basically do around 30 minutes of homework a week, very modest requirement, but then I really started liking what it had to offer. And I just started practicing as much as I can. And it really introduced me to a lot of topics that I didn't know even existed. So I was mainly studying you know, linear equations, and just y equals mx plus v just getting that down in class, but then introduce me to stuff in geometry, you know, introduce me to stuff, that's an algebra two. And slowly through that website, I got to learn a lot of math that I wasn't exposed to before. And it slowly just kind of became an addiction, to learn more and discover more. And I just felt it wasn't really a drive to do good in class, because at that point, I was beyond the scope of the class. It was just a drive to explore something that I deem very interesting. And I feel like, you know, I was lucky to discover that very early on, and it doesn't have to be math for everyone. You know, whatever it may be, if you find it, I feel like just falling in love with the process of learning it is the best catalyst. Like being motivated to pursue a great is one thing, but me being motivated just for the sake of exploration is a whole nother ballgame. Podcast Host 05:51 Yeah, but I know that a lot of students and this is probably going back to when I was a student in math class, I remember I, I put my hand up one time, I think we're all learning, you know, circuito, or whatever it might have been, or tangents and whatnot. And I put up my hand and I said to the teacher, I said, Ms Salvitti, when are we ever going to use this? Hamza Alsamraee 06:13 Classic question, right? Podcast Host 06:15 And her answer was like, Well, if you want to be a math teacher, you'll need to know it. And I'm like, I'm not gonna be a math teacher. Right? So for me, and I think a lot of other math students, they see that like, maths is rather theoretical, but don't necessarily see the real world application. When you were going through in learning all these kinds of things. What was your driving motivation? beyond just learning things? Were you able to see a real world application? Or were you just literally enjoying the learning process? And getting answers? Right? Hamza Alsamraee 06:42 To be honest, back then, I would say I was more interested in physics. And maybe So now, I'm interested more in applying math to the real world applied mathematics. So definitely saw a lot of applications back then. I mean, my both of my parents are civil engineers. So they told me all types of stories, you know, maybe they don't do the math with their hands, you know, nobody really does anymore. But they told me all types of stories about how you know, you they use it, maybe as in their programs, right, whatever software they may be using, right, and measurements and architectural drawings, right. And that was kind of my first exposure to saying, hey, math isn't just this abstract mess, can actually be applied. You know, I never really saw my dad solve an integral, but he didn't need to, because that was already worked out for him maybe 50 years ago, because someone just worked out a simple software program to do it for him. So I think that that was my first exposure, but I got to go more theoretical, and even in the applications. So I was really interested in quantum physics, relativity. And obviously, those fields are just riddled with math. And once I began seeing how fascinating the world can be at the extreme, so relativity is really all about extremes of speed, when you go really fast, you know, time changes, every year mass changes, you know, everything looks different, and quantum physics all about when you go really small, you know, how how does the world happen? How does the world operate at a very small scale. So that's really the two fields that drove me to learn a lot of math in the first place, is wanting to understand the core essence of what I deemed to be reality, you know, the universe that was kind of a motivator behind, you know, like, wasn't really something that I realized was motivating me. But it was definitely what drove me in retrospect. Podcast Host 08:30 I love that explanation of quantum physics is really small. relativity is really fast. I mean, I, as I said, not a mathematician myself. But that's like the most simple explanation I've ever heard of that. So I actually finally know, a kind of at least the introduction of what quantum physics or what relativity is actually all about. So thank you very much for that. But that's really awesome. Yeah, I think like having civil engineers as parents would definitely make a difference, right? Because they're just showing you that maths is not theoretical in and of itself, like it has so many real world applications. And I think that must have been a pretty good aspiration for you, or be able to kind of say, what matters and just, you know, numbers on a page, you can help build buildings, you can help do this cetera, et cetera. But one thing that I am interested in is that I know maths is very much like building blocks, right? And I'm sure you you write about this in your book as well. That if you don't have a particular thing down, Pat, everything above it starts to crumble a little bit, or you can never quite get there. You said you were struggling at maths in school. Did you find through that process of going on I Excel that you had kind of that missing building blocks along the way? And if so, like, what did you feel was, you know, some of the things that were potentially holding you back from being a success in maths and were you able to address it? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, the first thing that I started with before I grinded on IXL was I asked my parents, they helped me a lot. And you know, there's tutoring sessions could have been like, yeah, they were very long. Sometimes they're very tiring, but eventually Got to learn kind of the basics that led me to be good at IXL, right and kind of IXL, like IXL, IXL. They're basically for each chapter, they had a little homework assignment to do. And I just complete as many of those as I can. And I think that really the idea that you if you don't have a solid base, you can like fail, that's overplayed a lot. I think that if you were to just go exploring, knowing what you're missing isn't going to be that hard. So let's say you're doing a geometry problem or something, and you don't know how to solve this one certain linear equation. So you directly know what you have to learn. So you can always go back, it never hurts unless you're in a class. That's a whole different thing, right? where it's like, you can fail a class if you don't have the right basics, but doing exploration in and of itself, you know, watching more advanced videos, why, you know, reading about more advanced math theories never hurts, right? As long as you can understand a little bit of it, you know, it will only give you more content to munch on, if you don't know it fully. So to anyone that that wants to learn more advanced math content, but feels like they don't have the right preparation. Just go for it. Especially people like Three Blue One Brown, these math YouTubers, they make really advanced stuff seem really simple. And because they love to explain things, and they do it in such a beautiful manner. Yeah, I think it's an interesting concept of like, how far maths teaching has come and obviously, like you've been getting into that now with daily math and also your books. That, you know, I think maths teaching in and of itself, like we, by the way, in Australia, we call it maths plural. Yeah, as opposed to math there in the US. But it's really interesting, I think, to see how far math has gone as a classroom subject. Where do you think it's gone wrong in the past that has, you know, why turned off so many students from maths like, there's, there's a significant drop, at least here in Australia. And I know, in some parts of the world as well, from students doing advanced maths, they kind of get to that level where you can do the intermediate level, and they're like, yeah, that's fine. I'll just stick with that type of thing. So where do you think teaching is gone? Perhaps a little bit, or missteps in the teaching of kids in school? Hamza Alsamraee 12:14 I definitely think so. There's two types of maths or math in the world. There's the math that propel society propel civilization builds buildings, you know, comes up with new exciting theories about physics, chemistry, medicine. Now, whatever it may be, you know, the basis of our civilization. And there's the math that people complain about, and is the drag of so many students. And it's something that is never going to be applied in real life. And I feel like the main difference between those two types of maths is, let's look at how math is applied in the real world. Right now. Nobody's jotting down integrals and solving them in a, you know, like just on on a piece of paper, you know, they're plugging them in into Python or something, nobody is, like, a really tedious method that you would learn calculus class, like Newton's method, right? Were back then Nuland would probably have to work it out by hand. But right now, you don't need to have that because a computer, your calculator does it for you, or your computer does it for you. And I think the biggest disconnect is people have to do these things by hand. And that's where it's truly never going to be applied in real life. You You need to understand how to do the mechanisms behind these things. But you also need to understand how to apply them through tools. So I think one thing is just lessening the amount of computation each student has to do, because they will never be better at doing these advanced computations than a computer, we'll be right our computers are much more advanced. So just cutting down on that. And really bringing math back to what I think is original meanings was is just a new way of seeing the world quantitatively. And a rigorous way to test any hypothesis related to numbers, you know, that's going to be statistics and data science. So I think that's number one. Number two is really, I think this is missing from all of education, as well as just active project oriented learning, where the student doesn't feel like they're being lectured at. But the student feels actively involved in their learning process. And I can understand why that doesn't happen. It takes a lot of resources. And it takes very high organizational complexity within the school system. And that makes a lot of sense why it's not implemented. But if we really want to move forward in terms of education, we have to make students more involved within their own education, whether it's like in math class, have, you know, like, every quarter, you'll have a project applying, you know, if even if it's calculus, there's a lot of ways to apply calculus. I remember one project that I had was I used to be really into football. So I looked into projectile motion and what the best way to throw a football was, you know, why was this angle the best? And it's something that we know intuitively, maybe from just throwing a ball, but there's actually fascinating math by Find it and you can compute an actual best angle. And it turned out to be, I think, right around 30 to 35 degrees to throw like an American football. So stuff like that tying other subjects into your passion. Podcast Host 15:12 Right, I think we do that a lot, maybe with the humanities where you have like eight different types of papers, you know, tying in maybe your passion for art, or your passion for math with history, your passion for science with history. But we don't do that nearly enough with STEM subjects. Because we feel like we're not at that stage yet. But you can do interesting explorations at every level of your academic upbringing. Because they just look at real world problems, like, you know, it can be history and looking at the, you know, what happened in different wars and going back and having a bit of a discovery through that. And I think maths is just, I, when I go through my mess learning at school, it was just literally learning content for a test, we didn't get a good score, you felt like a straight up failure. And I think there's a lot of students who get turned off from maths because they have too many failures. Whereas they probably have one area of maths, they could really love and apply it to a particular area that they really love and are really interested in. So for students who are interested in doing that kind of investigation outside of class, where do you think they should start? Hamza Alsamraee 16:13 In terms of learning? I think that I mean, online is the best way to start, I want to recommend you hop on any books before you hop and learn stuff online. I mean, contrary to popular opinion, I think Wikipedia is a great resource. So for a general look up, right, let's say you're interested about this one specific concept. And general look up on Wikipedia can tell you quite a lot. For more in depth explorations. I think the site brilliant.org is amazing. Obviously, Khan Academy, other types of math sites, I'm working right now at a tech startup called mastodon, so kind of a shout out to them, you know, of self promo, but mastodon.org has great content, very interactive. And there's quite a lot of websites that start and once you kind of get to learning a lot of that type of stuff, it's time to get involved, whether that is through a school project, you know, a science fair project, you know, forming a math community somewhere or plant, you know, just joining an existing one, I know a brilliant they have like a big math community, or problem solving as a big math community, wherever you can find people who share your passion, that's going to be an accelerator for your own growth. And obviously, like the usual math competitions, we have them at school camera, applying them there. But really, it's a very vast field and how you can apply it, you can look at various fields and how they intersect with math, or you can look at just like the pure mathematics, recreational mathematics. And what I like about math is I think it's one of the most versatile subjects, you can apply math to linguistics, and you can apply math to history, and you can apply math or physics. So whatever interests you aftermath, right, or whatever your primary interest is, find ways to apply it with math, whether it be through projects, competitions, you know, starting your own thing, and I wouldn't get discouraged from wild ideas, like having a math page on Instagram wasn't the most popular idea, right. But a lot of people try not to like it. So don't be afraid to try something that's new, and combine different passions in new ways, because sometimes they can work and they can work wonderfully. Podcast Host 18:16 Yeah, I think that's a that's a very, very good point. And thank you for those resources, we'll put a couple of those in the show notes as well, in terms of your books, let's go back to that. Because you've written two books, you're a young guy, you must have had a fair bit of time sunk into those two books. And I guess it's probably not, you know, quote, unquote, the sexiest thing to be doing is writing books on calculus when you're in high school. But you know, you went out and did that, which is awesome. So take us through that process, like, how did the idea come about? And when you have the idea, what did you do for next steps. Hamza Alsamraee 18:48 So for my first book, honestly came out of the lack of resources that I experienced. So a lot of upper math books on upper math textbooks are very inaccessible in their language, they're very heavily pretreated. And hey, that's a good thing if you're a grad student, or trying to learn that, but for me, I was just honestly there to explore. And I felt like a big barrier between high school level math where there was a lot, there was plenty of resources to learn it, right, from Khan Academy to mapping on brilliant when you go to advanced level stuff, right? It's just suddenly a desert of textbooks. And when textbooks come along, right, even good textbooks, they would always be either very expensive, and accessible. So I want it to be the change I wanted to see in the world. And I decided, hey, why not write a book, but I was probably like, 13 back then. So who qualifies me to write a book about, you know, advanced topic, I ended up writing maybe like, you know, five pages, you know, every week, maybe every month and it was very on and off. wasn't until about my junior year that my friend saw me typing away at a document called book. I was like, What is this? It's like, Oh, I'm writing a book. I've been doing this for like three, four. yours now, like, wait, really, and I just, you know, we had a conversation, he's like, you should really publish this thing I was like it was at that point, it was nowhere near publishable. It was just a bunch of different equations and solutions, and exercises and explanations, it was just all over the place. But once I got that advice from him, I started working on you know, actually making a publish publishable textbook. And I saw it kind of like a traditional publishing contract at first. But then I realized why I was doing this in the first place. And it's because to make it more accessible. And if I were to go publish with an academic publisher like Springer, or I don't know, Oxford or Cambridge, they would charge me the same no matter how much if I even if I gave up completely on royalties, which were barely anything for Academic Publishers, they'd still charge very high amounts. And I basically have no power or control over the content, they'll just have to mold it to their liking. So I decided to self publish it, I wanted to do it before my 17th birthday. So I can say I'd been at 16. So I did it two days before my 17th birthday. And I mean, it was a beautiful feeling to press that Publish button. And eventually I self published through Amazon. And it worked out great, you know, not only can I set my own prices, which are pretty low compared to other textbooks, but you know, I have full control over what I can put in it. And in general, just, I was really surprised to see so many people, you know, kind of being interested in it. And the funniest story that I had was I don't know if this is real or not, but on my daily math, email, someone emailed me. And he was like, I think it was like, Oh, I'm emailing you. Like I just, I was in prison for seven years. And I wanted help on your book, chapter two, exercise seven or something. And I don't know how my book made it to prison. But if someone read it in prison, hey, like props to him? Yeah, so that was the wildest story. A lot of story I've had with the book, but I was really surprised to see it reach so many people, I mean, only, it's, I think sold around 4000 copies by now. But for an advanced calculus book, that's a huge number. You know, very nice, nice textbook. Podcast Host 22:13 If I was asked to write a advanced calculus textbook, firstly, I would say you're asking the wrong person. But if I did have that kind of level of knowledge, right, I would also write a whole lot of equations and solutions and put a couple of explanations in there. But then it would be still I feel a long way from looking like a textbook. So what was the biggest challenge for you in bringing all that three or four years of content? That sounds like a massive headache? What was your approach to try and format it in a way that was accessible for students? So Hamza Alsamraee 22:43 yeah, I mean, since I self published it, right, so with an academic publisher, so you have a dedicated editor, you have a dedicated, maybe team of like, people, beta readers, so I didn't have those institutional resources. So I leverage the power of the daily math community, I brought an editor from outside, you know, that I knew from, you know, a teacher, a teacher recommended her, and she worked with me. And you know, I had a connection with someone that wrote a similar book that would give that gave me feedback on your kind of the general structure of the book. So don't be afraid to use resources. And if anything, you have to use outside resources, especially if you're a high schooler trying to publish, you know, more niche textbooks, especially something that's nonfiction where you have to have authoritative sources, authoritarian voice throughout the book. So what I did Besides, you know, getting that editor and getting that Professor to help is I would actually just hop on my daily math page and kind of advertise like, Hey, does anyone want to read kind of like a beta version of the book so they can give feedback on it. And I made sure that I selected people from all types of backgrounds. So I selected high school students, I selected undergrads, I selected graduate students. So I would get feedback at all levels, because hey, if I picked only graduate students, and mathematics, they would have very high level feedback. And it will probably not serve like the targeted audience, which was an early undergraduate student that is vaguely interested in math and as applications. So I made sure to kind of get like a beta team of readers and beta reader team. And they read through it for like a month or two, and they gave me their feedback. And that's how it got to be polished up, you know, it's not the most refined textbook out there. But you know, with the resources that you have, you know, you have to make the best use of them. And eventually, after all the help from these people, it got to a very refined product, where you can publish this and say, Hey, I'm proud of this, and it matches the quality of the market, let's say. Podcast Host 24:46 Yeah, yeah. 100%. That's a good explanation. I'm interested in how many doors does writing a book open for you? Because I think there's a lot of different ways that students can share their interest and share their knowledge. With the world, they could start a podcast, for instance, or they could start an Instagram or they could start a YouTube channel, or you know, they could write a book. But I've always thought that writing a book is kind of that Everest of authority in a field, right? If you if you publish a book, if you get a book out there, that's basically saying to everybody, I know my stuff. Right? And it's a very kind of bold statement that you are the authority in this particular area. And yeah, I'd be interested to hear from you as to if you felt that at all, like when you published advanced calculus, did you feel like you were being treated as an authority in the area? Because you published a book? Hamza Alsamraee 25:36 I would say, like yes and no, in some respects, so I was definitely treated as someone that is, since this book is not quite researched level yet. It's not something that is at the frontier of knowledge. I was currently right. So this is I didn't discover new equations in this book. I'm just teaching stuff that's already in other textbooks in a more accessible and presentable way, you know, especially to people that don't really have the most access to resources. But in terms of like authority figures, I was definitely I felt like given more of an authority in circles of math, education and math communication. Now I got to work I got to talk to some pretty cool people, probably the biggest name that I got to talk to Steven Strogatz. So Steven Strogatz is a New York Times best selling author, he writes books, too. And I won a prize in his name. And we got to me, we got to chit chat a lot. I was part of this initiative. Like back in the summer, we've invited him to be on kind of like a panel, and I got to meet with three blue one Brown. So you definitely get a lot of like verification for being who you are like, hey, let's say you want to establish yourself as an educator or a communicator in a specific field, a book will definitely help you. Like my main goal with this book was just to like help out people, I was originally going to make it free. But then publishing costs, I need to pay for those. So yeah, yeah. And also, like, on that aspect of it, like I noticed that free books don't actually get a lot of reads, when people can get something free. They don't put as much effort into reading it. Yeah. So it was, it was a paradox in terms of, oh, you make a hire more people actually read it. So I think that in terms of writing a book to become an authority figure, that's one way, that's one reason to write a book. And if that is your goal, I would try to make the book more on the side of being lengthy and being more authoritative than being catchy and readable. Because if you want to establish your name, you know, you're gonna have to write a tap more technical, more grandiose, more very general book than, let's say something like paradox is my second book was more of like a recreational math type. You know, it just talks about the history of paradoxes, some of their applications, when nothing like an academic textbook, like my first one was, yeah, no, Podcast Host 28:04 well, it's good to say that you've got ins with the math community, and particularly the math educators, math communicators. That's where I was thinking that you'd probably have a lot of into, there's actually a quite a famous mathematician or math teacher here in Australia. And he's created a YouTube channel called Blue tube. And his name is Eddie Wu. And, and, Hamza Alsamraee 28:22 of course, anyway, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I haven't met him, but I know. Podcast Host 28:25 Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, he, you know, is like a celebrated maths teacher here in Australia, and does some fantastic videos on YouTube. And is there any kind of thought, obviously, like, your charismatic guy? Is there any thought of taking your content on to other platforms, I mean, we'll talk about daily math in a moment. But YouTube, those kinds of things as well as ever thought, Hamza Alsamraee 28:45 definitely, to be honest, I've been slacking on that for about a year now. Always wanted to start a YouTube channel, but it's like, I always delay it in my head, like, Oh, I'm busy this week. Let me start next week. I'm busy this month, let me start next month. So my goal is to definitely have a YouTube channel by the summer, right? That was like my very strict goal for myself, like habit before I started college, and if someone wants to build, so this going more into like social media and kind of the whole, you know, there's a lot of debate on social media platforms, and which is the best one. But really, whatever one you feel most comfortable building an audience in, like, Instagram is very visual. So if you're a visual person, Instagram, obviously YouTube takes the most effort, you have to edit videos, animate them, maybe record videos, it's gonna take a lot of tries. But hey, if you think you want to try it out, try it out. It's very hard to get started. But yeah, whatever the platform may be, I think that you know, if you want to share truly build an audience or build, you know, a community around what you like, I think social media is a great way to start and it's a very underexplored medium. I feel like right now, especially with the COVID era, you can you know, math clubs are hard to make, but you can make a virtual math club on it. Instagram or on YouTube or on Twitter, whatever it may be. Podcast Host 30:03 Yeah, well, you've been doing exactly that with daily math. What was the goal of that community? And what were you trying to convey to your audience in that I know, we discussed earlier that perhaps starting an Instagram math channel, you might think who's going to follow that, but you've got over 100,000 followers, and that's off the back of about 400 or so posts. So it's growing quite quickly. What are you kind of noticing from that community? And what was the content that really kind of generates the most likes and the most kind of excitement from your your community that Hamza Alsamraee 30:36 in terms of why I started the community, to be honest, was twofold. One, I, we didn't have a math club at school, and there wasn't even enough interest for one. So I figured, hey, let me start my own math club. And let me make it on Instagram. And second, mainly to kind of I thought that, hey, maybe even if I get 1000 followers, I started this in June of 2019. Maybe if I get 1000 followers in like five months, which was when I plan to publish my book, maybe, you know, like, 10, people are gonna read it. Now, that was like, I was very modest. Like, I didn't know that many people like math on Instagram. But I was wrong. And I'm glad I was wrong. So the reason it blew up, I feel like I had a strategy. That was in retrospect, I didn't realize that was my strategy. But now I say it is basically just our very niche, like, start with a very narrow audience, you want to target that very narrow audience. And after you get that very loyal following, start expanding your content. So in the beginning, I focus primarily on integral calculus, like that's a very niche area of math. But now I focus on pretty much all types of math, right? Whether it's recreational, you know, it's just cool. Or whether it's like serious research math, or geometry, algebra, whatever it may be, you know, I try to have it on Well, if it's interesting, and the content that really gets the most views is the content that piques people's imaginations and interests them the most, right, and that can take a wide variety of forms. So, you know, it can be an very interesting math problem. But it can also be a really cool math animation, it can be a math concept that seems very obscure, that is well explained. I know, there's this very obscure, like, not totally obscure, but very hard to formulate, theoretically, it's called notaires theorem. And it's this mathematical physics law that talks about how symmetry and conservation laws are actually one in the same thing. So right here, if you move it, this will be symmetry and movement, like linear movement, if you move something, an object, that's an inherent property of the universe, right? If you move like, I don't know, like a phone case, right, from left to right, nothing changes, you can move it just fine. And the same laws of physics apply. So that's, you know, you can prove through that theorem, that that is the reason that, you know, conservation of momentum exists, you know, all these conservation laws, conservation of energy, conservation of mass, have an underlying symmetry, you know, just like how we think of symmetry, yeah. And the universe, whether it be through time symmetry through time symmetry, motion. And it's a very cool concept. But the math behind it looks so complicated. And just the fact that you can simplify it, and a short caption Instagram caption and make people feel like they learn something new. People love that, you know, learning something new is an amazing thing. As long as you make it very catchy and very immersing, you have to make it an immersive experience. You can't let the other person feel like they're lecture that you have to make them feel like they're involved within the journey of exploration. Podcast Host 33:41 Well, that's tough to do in a caption, but what you're going through, yeah, yeah, it that's the real art form of it, right? Like it's making something that is accessible, which I guess in some terms might mean basic, but also technical enough that your community will appreciate it. Can I just ask why integral calculus to start with? Hamza Alsamraee 34:03 It's a really interesting chain of events. So Brilliant. So I told you about the platform, Brilliant that I was really involved in. So Brilliant used to have a lot of that type of stuff, very interesting integrals with lovely results, right? So you can have like an integral that appears in like quantum physics, and somehow pi appears in there. You know, it's like fascinating, those links in math, right. And it was a really, really popular form of problem on brilliant a lot of people were posting these types of problems. And the real the real reason behind that is brilliant, had a big Indian demographic, and the most influential Indian mathematician was Rama, Nugent. And Rama. NuGen had a very deep interest in their roles and he was known as being a crazy integrator, he would do very crazy integrals and somehow, they all turned out right even when he doesn't show a lot of his work. So the reason And that that happened is somehow he borrowed a textbook that had a lot of those that had a little section on, like integrals and very fancy integrals, that just somehow inspired him to do more work in that area. And that just domino effect from a little textbook that he picked up when he was a kid that made him a very popular mathematician that eventually, you know, got brilliant to be filled with these made me really like integrals. And also my book had a lot of them. So it's kind of like a marketing pot for that as well. So yeah, it was you don't have to start with integral calculus, it just has to be something that's very nice, whether, let's say you're into history, start with European history, you know, and maybe even more specific European history means, right? Some person is going to like them, right? Some person is going to be really into that type of stuff. And you can slowly expand to just history in general. Right? And obviously, history is a huge niche, you know, it's very hard to cover all of history, but you don't have to cover all of history. Right? You know, every day, you know, it's a new post, you can post something new. And it's just something that's interesting, whether it be about, you know, ancient Chinese history, or modern Middle Eastern history, whatever it may be, yeah, interests you, you can build a community around it, you know, and that's a very powerful belief. And it's something that I didn't believe initially, especially about math, right. which seemed like a topic that turned off a lot of people. But hey, if you like it, there's probably other people that like it, too. Podcast Host 36:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, one thing that I'm interested in as well Hamza, is that you've referenced a couple, I guess, quote, unquote, math heroes feels like an important thing for you to kind of like have these maths heroes in a way right? Feels like from talking to you that knowing these people and what they've achieved in maths help you expand your frame of reference of what's possible in the area of maths as well. And I think that's a, like when I'm thinking to students today, a lot of the time their frame of reference is very small, it might just be like, the content of the exam. And it might just be like, the best mathematician they might know is their math teacher. So how important was it for you to think to kind of expand that out and to look at these, like, amazing mathematicians, like almost magicians within their field right now really breaking into new ground and trying new things? Was that inspiring for you? Hamza Alsamraee 37:15 Yeah, I mean, I, so I'll tell you a little story. So I was born in Iraq. So I was specifically in Baghdad, the capital, Baghdad, had a very, very cool street called and within the streets, within Abbey was this poet from 1000 years ago. And he was this really influential Iraqi poet. And that street is basically the cultural center of Iraq. It has the biggest bookstore, maybe in the middle waves, the highest concentration of bookstores, in the Middle East. And it was just a lovely place to chat about all types of things. You know, every day, you'll have like, the city's most intellectual, you know, most well known intellectuals come in talking about all types of things. And my grandpa was actually a history professor. Right? So he'd go there a lot, and he'd bring me with him. And obviously, my parents are engineers, so they like math. And they used to bring me books from that street when I was really, really young. Right. So there are a lot of children's books. But they basically described a lot of the rich mathematical history of Baghdad. So from people like, you know, to see who discovered the SOHCAHTOA stuff, right? from people like me, who discovered algebra, they kind of just reading about that and feeling like, I am part of my city's legacy, right. And even at large at a larger scale, I'm part of humanity's legacy, right? Like the things that I'm thinking about right now or thought about before me, that's a beautiful thing to realize that this is just a never ending cycle of human exploration, to understand our place in the world, and you know, kind of who we are as a human species. That's a beautiful thing to think about being connected to these types of people, whether it's like, I had the luck of being born in a city with a rich history. But even if you were born in I don't know, very, like the middle of Canada or the middle of Australia, right, where maybe there's not a lot of ancient mathematicians. That doesn't mean that you're not connected to the very rich history of math throughout the world. Throughout humanity's history and looking up to people like Rama NuGen, like Steven Strogatz, you know, even current people, I feel like that can provide you with a source of inspiration, and a deeper level of meaning to what you do that's outside, like a simple exam grade, because getting good grades getting so good college, like, that's a very cool thing to do. But there's a reason you want to do that stuff. And you got to discover that reason, like, do you just want to be, you know, world class researcher, do you want to really change the world? You know, do you just want to learn, like, there's a reason underlying all of that, and knowing your reason, right, you can definitely tie that in to very influential figures, right. And knowing and I don't have only math role models, you know, I think role models in general, you know, having a lot of those role models in your life. I think that's a very important thing. And it doesn't have to be this great mathematician, it can be someone like your dad, it can be someone like an influential adult in your life. Just the character really is what makes those mathematicians great. I don't like Rama, Nugent, because of his math. I like Ramanujan because of the story. And I feel like that Trumps any mathematical equation. Podcast Host 40:22 Yeah, I love that story. Man also speaks to probably why you're writing books, and prioritize that over starting a YouTube channel, because you went with the granddad to that straight with his full of books all the time, right? So it must be very near and dear to your heart. But something like a really special moment when you press publish on that book, and you're like, hey, yeah, that's my contribution to this kind of legacy that continues on. And hopefully you're kind of helping other people to explore more in that area of maths or whatever it might be. But in terms of the future, where do you think maths is going as a field in general, obviously, like, data science, and that kind of stuff is really, you know, Ai, and machine learning, etc? It really is bringing a whole new kind of possibility to the world of maths. Is that something that you're interested in? Or is that something that you see that, you know, could really bring a more students back to a higher level maths? Hamza Alsamraee 41:15 I think so. I mean, we're moving towards a more technical economy, like right now, more and more jobs are being dedicated to very high level technical fields, and a lot of those require a lot of math. So there's gonna, there's gonna have to be some change. So educational shift, and I feel like, the reason is going to come is because of pressure from other countries. In a lot of ways, the US responds best, when there's an outside threat to the US being like the best at what it does. Yep. So right now, you know, we, we are the mathematical center of the world when you produce the most mathematical output. But if let's say the UK Trumps us, or Japan, Trump's us, or China, Trump says, right, and AI output or math output, that's going to put the Department of Education in a really tight hole where they have to change the math curriculum to reflect the ever changing needs of humanity and the economy. So I definitely think that the things we talked about things like getting rid of so much computation, and actually using computers, instead of deeming them as a cheating device, using a computer isn't cheating, using a computer is just what you do in real life. Yeah. Right. So if a mathematical problem can be solved with the computer, then it's not a math problem. Right? If you can solve it, you know, with a calculator, it's not a math problem. Unless you're talking about like very young students, like in elementary school, like I want them to do arithmetic. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, once you get to high school level, you know, your arithmetic, you can add, you can multiply just fine. You can do fractions. So now it's more about analytical thinking and applying mathematical problem solving to actual problems, right. So you see that all the time in computer science and AI, so it has to really reflect in the education system. And I think that more and more countries are moving towards it. And eventually, you know, the big population centers like India, China, and the US, they're going to move towards that as well. Podcast Host 43:06 Yeah, well, I'm actually reading AI superpowers at the moment, which is a fantastic book that was gifted to me by my co host, Jamie, and I'm sure Jamie would have loved to have chatted with you, by the way, he did applied maths and economics at Harvard. So he's all Yeah, yeah, he's all about maths. I mean, it's interesting from a Crimson perspective, that, you know, as far as I know, we're one of the first kind of college consulting organizations to really bring in a lot of data points. Because Jamie's like a really big believer in the power of data, he loves, you know, stock investing, and that kind of thing, data is one of those things that he just kind of locked on to so we've been collecting just hates your data to try and predict, you know, if a student was to get X amount in their SAT, and they were to, you know, be from this background in this country, and whatever, whatever they asked for this much financial aid, what is their chances are getting into, you know, one of the eight Ivy League's, or whatever it might be, right. And it kind of makes those decisions around, which is usually based on experience of like, Oh, I think the student will get into X number of universities kind of starts backing it up with a little bit more data and those kinds of things. So yeah, from from, it really is a, I think that data side of things is really going to bring in a whole new era for maths and what's possible with it, which is really awesome. And you as you said, they a lot of jobs, and a lot of them are pretty highly paid too. So not a bad place to end up. I think they're speaking of which, you know, in colleges, where are you getting into college for your summer? Hamza Alsamraee 44:33 So yeah, for for my college, so it's a bit complicated. So I applied last year, and I committed to a school so I committed to Northwestern, but then what happened is I realized that there's a little financial aid policy that's not really that works out the best for my situation. So I reapply to a few schools this year, who have a little bit better financial policy, so I'm not really sure where I'm gonna end up Northwestern is still my likely option, but if I get into a better school, like with terms of like, you know, better financial aid Probably just going to go there. So yeah, pretty much undecided right now. Podcast Host 45:03 Yeah. Well, Northwestern still a great choice. But yeah, there are, yeah, financial aid, obviously, you know, can make or break a decision really like it. I mean, 1000s and 1000s of dollars. So completely understand that. And what are you looking to study there? Hamza Alsamraee 45:15 Definitely math, definitely physics, so double major in that. And for my minor if I have time, computer science minor, really, I'm interested in the field of quantum computing. So math, physics, and computer science is like the Holy Trinity for quantum computing, math for the algorithm aspect of it, computer science for how to program it and Physics for how to make it happen. So that's where I want to be. That's the feel I want to be in the future. And I think that trio would really prepare me for it. Podcast Host 45:43 Yeah. And if you got any companies in mind that you would love to work for or like, you might want to start your own I guess. Hamza Alsamraee 45:48 Yeah, I mean, I'm not really sure I don't have my eyes on a lot of stuff. I mean, obviously, Google, IBM, Microsoft, they have a lot of cool stuff regularly. They have cool stuff, too. But yeah, there's a lot of companies in the quantum ecosystem right now. But I might just have, you know, a revolution, that's the goal is to have something that's revolutionary, that will make be able to start my own startup in the field. Podcast Host 46:11 Yeah, well, I think that'd be a pretty cool thing. I think it's an interesting, you know, conversation around those kind of futures of careers. Because I know that a lot of traditional pathways are a lot more kind of obvious to students, when they're going through high schools, like, you know, if you're smart do medicine or law type of thing, and particularly here in Australia, like, it's not really the dumb thing to go into computer science yet. Whereas in the US, like, electrical engineering, computer science is, you know, pretty hot property over there. But yeah, it's interesting to kind of look at the future of maths and where that might take students. So hopefully, they can kind of follow along with your journey. And speaking of which, if they wanted to follow your journey, what would be the best way to get in contact with you? Hamza Alsamraee 46:53 Yeah, so um, just email me, or you can DM me on daily math, I try to respond to a lot of people there. So those are the best ways to get in touch with me. I post a lot of cool stuff on daily map. So if you're into Bab, go follow me there. And definitely, if you want to reach out even about, you know, like stuff other than math, if you want to ask about anything, I'm down to be reached daily math. Podcast Host 47:14 Yeah. Well, the show notes are going to be packed with links. I can tell you that much. But man, it's been fantastic chat. And thank you so much. Actually, before you go, what would be your final parting advice? Hamza Alsamraee Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway from high school is like a lot of people try to be good at everything. But you just have to be good at one certain thing to really provide value to the world. It's cool to be active in a lot of different areas. But really finding your one single thing, that's the best thing you can do for yourself. And hey, if you can't find that out, that's totally fine, too. And I guess my second biggest takeaway from high school is, it's not what you do inside that matters in the long run, right? Like good grades, obviously, count being involved in clubs, sports, like those are obviously good data points, you know, for your future. But really, what matters is what you explore outside, kind of have to make your own path. And you can't really follow anyone else's, because they're different people with different interests with different abilities with different circumstances. So it's scary. And it sounded scary to me to have to do a lot of stuff like for the first time, like, not a lot of Instagram math pages I can reach out to especially people who are starting out when they were very young. Not a lot of young people who wrote books. So sometimes it's like, a dark journey, right? But hey, if you're really passionate about something, I'd really recommend, just do whatever is in mind, and find new ways to bring value to the world, whether it's, you know, through outreach and education, or through innovation and starting something new or whatever it may be. Just think about the big picture and just go at it. Podcast Host Perfect. Well, thanks so much, Hamza. It's been awesome chatting. I hope students take advantage of those links in the show notes. And yeah, look forward to sharing this episode far and wide. Hamza Alsamraee Great. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I love the conversation.

Ep#1 College Chats - Former UChicago Admission Officer, Steve Han, on Putting Passion into Applications

Ep#1 Former UChicago Admission Officer, Steve Han, on Passion into Applications

🗓 FEB 3, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:16 Hello, and welcome to the first episode of the college chats podcast. It's a new series of the top of the class where we're going to be focusing on college admissions. And I'm delighted to have former US Chicago admission officer and now current Crimson senior strategist Steve Hahn with us today, Steve, welcome to college chats. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Steve Han 00:38 Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, my name is Steve. I currently live in Los Angeles, California. Previously, I've lived in New York and Korea and Florida. I went to the University of Chicago, where I graduated in 2017. With a BA in biology. I now work as with Crimson as a senior strategist. I also work as a full time actor and comedians. I do TV and commercial work. Yes. And then, in Chicago, I worked. I worked with the admissions office a lot at the University of Chicago. So I've been working there since 2013. And I read admissions from 2016 to 2018. So I help them get the classes of 2021 and 2022. That's pretty much my background. Podcast Host 01:19 And you're the the Tik Tokker. Steve Han 01:22 I am the Tik Tokker. I Tik Tok with Sam for Crimson, for Crimson as well. Podcast Host 01:28 So yeah, for students out there having a listen to the podcasts, maybe they can go ahead and listen to the tick tock, and vice versa, potentially, as well. Maybe new Tick Tock is joining us on the podcast brought over by your fame. And and I love it, I love it. I mean, what a random career path I guess you've had in terms of like studying biology, to be into the admissions office to be doing comedy. And now we're doing Tick Tock. I'm going to guess it's been a bit of a wild ride. But do you enjoy the role as being a currency strategist? Steve Han 01:57 Yeah, it's great. I always say the admissions process is like a board game that someone's mom lost the instruction manual to so no one knows how to play the game. And everyone's guessing, like, what works and what doesn't work. And my job is just to provide some clarity and provide an instruction manual, essentially, just to make it make a little bit more sense. That's essentially it. Podcast Host 02:18 I love that analogy. I think everybody's got at least one of those games lying around the house, which, you know, you're just trying to look at the cover of it, and just trying to figure out what is this game all about? Based on cover image? Right. So what are we chatting about today? What kind of topic? Do you want to delve into a little bit more? Steve Han 02:33 Yeah, I think talking a little bit more about what passion looks like, on an application. And I think that, for me, personally, as someone that's read admissions, and for me when I applied to college, you know, I, I got into, you know, a few Ivy League plus schools. So, you know, I ended up going to University Chicago, so I think, um, you know, the, the biggest thing for me is just how to indicate passion on like paper, essentially. Podcast Host 02:57 Yeah, I think it's such an interesting topic, because I think it's such a vague one as well, in many respects, like, you know, students are often told follow your passions, and who knows exactly what that is, or how to then express it in an application, I think super important. So from your side of things, yeah. How does passion come across in an application and what students can do to make sure that they're presenting their quote, unquote, passion in the best way possible? Steve Han 03:21 Yeah. So yeah, it is totally a phrase that we hear all the time words. Yeah, students are told, and it's hard from young age to know what your passions are. Because you're, you're, you know, you're only 16 1718. And you haven't lived as much life as like, you know, someone like you, you were I have, for example, and it's just, it's hard to pinpoint that. So I think a big a big misconception that a lot of students have about the admissions process is that they have to be, like amazing at everything that they'd like 10,000 things right. They think that they have to be like a math competition star, but they also have to be Allstate orchestra. And they also have to No, there's just there's this misconception about like, everything that goes into being a stellar applicant. And I think something to keep in mind is that an admissions office is not making a class of well rounded students. They're making a well rounded class of stellar students. Right? That's the main thing, right? is that it's a Do you play Pokemon? Podcast Host 04:14 I have dabbled in Pokemon. Yes. Okay. Steve Han 04:17 I use this metaphor, because I do mostly work with like stem thirds, which is my brother, brother. That's me. Yeah, I always thought that right? If you are listening to this, and you're a Pokemon fan, but you know, we're not making like an Ash Ketchum, like the lead of the TV show, or make who has like one of every type of Pokemon we're making like an OBE for or like, like a gym or making like, you have to just like being specialized helps you in this case, right? Which doesn't mean like, you can't be good at a bunch of things. That's not what we're saying. If you are the kind of person that is well rounded like that, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but don't feel the pressure to do a bunch of different things. Because what passion ends up looking like on application is that it really comes out in your essays more than anything because you can write almost anything to like look good and activity list or a resume or whatnot, because it's just listing things. But in your essays, it really comes across when someone when a student is really passionate about a topic or really excited about a topic, it is way more enjoyable for me as a reader to read it. But it also just gives us a chance for adding three dimensionality to an essay or to an application. Because otherwise, you know, if you look at me, for example, you know, in high school, I was a math star, I didn't also orchestrated varsity swimming, I was like, pretty like, good at a lot of different things. But you know, if you took my statistics, there's a lot of students that probably look like me across the country, my school, even my city. And the thing that added like flavor and color and texture to my application, were my essays, right, where I have a sense of humor. So my essays, not only one of my essays was serious, but the rest of them were all, you know, like, pretty facetious and light hearted. So, you know, when I used to bring students into a room to like, argue for their case, in the admissions process, I would never refer to them as like, by their test score, or their grades or whatever. It was always like, oh, remember that kid that wrote about XYZ, right? My favorite essay I still ever read from you, Chicago was this essay that you would never thought the student would have written this essay It was about. His application was like very stem focused. He had done a lot of research, like a lot of math sciences. But his essay, the question that year was like, combined to historical figures, or pop culture figures or whatever make like, write us a story about this new person's biography. And we got a lot of like, fine answers for that one. But he was my favorite one, because he wrote about, he combined, Lil Kim, the rapper with Kim Jong moon. So it was low Kim Jong moon, and it was this, it was really it was so it was just stupid is the best way to put it. It was so good. So funny. So you know, and his passion. Ultimately, what we found through the essay was he's a really big into pop culture, like he was a quizbowl star. And his position, I guess, on the on the clinical team was pop culture, even though you can't really write about that an activity list. So it became very evident to us that that was just as passion. So passion doesn't have to have like, I think that's another thing is that students think that there needs to be like an external metric of success for passion. And that's not the case at all right, you're able to quote you, you can have qualitative metrics of success that you define internally for an essay. So yeah, that was a long way of saying, you know, passion really comes across in your essay. So write about things that actually are of interest to you. Because a lot of essays we get our, as an admissions office reader is, you know, a lot of them are like, pretty, are they just, they lack passion. So a lot of them are read in such a way where they're like, my name is this, I am interested in business, you know, they list their resume out essentially, under or their activity list, which we recommend not doing on your essay, it should be a chance to show another facet of your application. So yeah, I think like, allow something that's actually of interest to you, whether you're serious or silly, or whatever, in between, like, showcase that on paper. Podcast Host 07:44 Yeah, I think passion is such an interesting topic, particularly for students, as you said, they might not have necessarily had the chance to do some of the things that they might be passionate about. So say, for instance, as a student who's really passionate about astrophysics, or building cars, or whatever it might be, but at school, they might not have had like, the opportunity to go out and actually do those things as yet. So most of their passion would be based on either their readings of other people who are building cars, and those kinds of things. Is that still legit passion if the student can show that through their essays and extracurriculars? Steve Han 08:17 Yeah, of course. I mean, I think another thing that students forget is that the stellar cases that you see in the news and whatnot, they they compare themselves to those students who are like on Shark Tank at the age of 16, or Yeah, you know, are Olympians or whatever. And one really important thing to remember is that an admissions office is really hyper cognizant, most of the time about barriers of access their barriers of entry, you know, knowing the difference between like access and equity for, you know, a student coming from x area versus y area, right? Like, you know, we take that into account 100%, because we that's why we asked for a lot of other forms that you have to submit because, again, your school gives us a school report. So there's, there's a lot of reasons for that, so that it gives us understanding. So just because you want to be a you know, an astronaut one day, but you haven't done like a NASA training program, as a high schooler doesn't mean that we're not going to like MIT will accept you, right? There are a lot of ways to engage passion beyond just what ultimately our points of access to like, you know, points of privilege or whatnot, right. So especially nowadays, I think the conversation is way more moving towards equity versus equality, equity rather than equality. And so, you know, for a student if, if you're worried about your passion, not necessarily being as, like I mentioned earlier, a quantitative metric of success. Don't worry, there's a lot of ways to qualify that explain that add texture to your application to be able to showcase it in a different kind of way. I mean, for me, for example, I really loved comedy for a long time. I never knew I could do comedy professionally in any kind of capacity. But I showcase my interest in comedy and pop culture as well by writing by every single one of my essays. And that just showed up for me even though I had never done like an MVC fellowship right and never done like I wrote 30 rock, the TV show you have in a lot of my essays. Even though like I'd never done a page internship, but nothing in my application would scream, this guy should go into comedy one day except for my essays. But you know, that's when I talked to my admissions officer. He was like, yeah, we remember you. I was like the funny, like the random funny kid from Florida. You know? Podcast Host 10:14 Nice, nice, nice. Well, one of my other questions on passion is, I think a lot of students confuse being really good at a subject with their passion as well. So they might say, Well, I'm really good at maths. But they might not necessarily like love it, they only enjoy it, because they're really good at it. So yeah. Is that something that an admissions officer is able to tell the difference about? And if a student is really good at something, but isn't yet really passionate about it? How do you perhaps convert that into a passion? Or what would be your recommendations for a student? Who's in that situation? Who says, Well, I'm really good at a whole lot of subjects, but I can't really see anything that I'm necessarily passionate about right now. Steve Han 10:54 Yeah, I mean, well, first off, what's easier to remember in college that like most universities that this the students that are looking towards probably aren't like trade schools where you would only be doing like one thing so keep in mind when you're when you're good at a subject that will help you in college even if you're not necessarily going to major in it because generally a college course breakdown is a 34 classes, at least American universities. A third of your courses are your major a third are your general electives. And then third are general requirements. And a third are your your electives. You have like room in your schedule. And part of it is that you have to be able to have a lot of diversity of thoughts in your course load. So just because you're good at something doesn't mean that it's going to stop as soon as you go to college academically speaking at least right extracurricular Li, that's a different story. But you know, I'm definitely that won't stop in terms of how to convert something like not like being good at math, but not necessarily being passionate about it. I asked a student that pursued not and I say this as someone that I liked it not competitions from third grade till the day I I missed my high school graduation to go to a math competition. Like I was doing it till the summer after I graduated, I was doing math competitions for my school that my team, so I get it, but I'm not like, I'm not gung ho about math, I just I know I'm good at it. I realized maybe too late on in my high school career that I was passionate about winning, which is not not not a good enough reason to do something. But it's not about winning. And I knew that the easiest way for me to get there was math, right? So for me, having gone through it, and not being able to explore that I challenge the student into thinking, you know, if, if you are good at math, let's say but and you continue to do it, but you're not necessarily passionate about it. Think about like, what about the experience of math is deriving joy for you from it? Because it might not be the math itself. It might be like the camaraderie, it might be the competitive aspect, whatever, how can you dissect your experience in this certain thing into a discrete unit, take that out, isolate it and think about what other realms are there for me to explore as a high school student that still allow me to derive joy from this like specific facet of something that I'm good at. Right. So in math again, for me, I really enjoyed winning, and I enjoyed the camaraderie right. So for me, I ended up doing more like Student Government volunteer work, too, right. And that ended up being a really like, big joy of mine as well, my senior year of high school. So, you know, it's, I think it's a lot easier said than done. But you can find points of joy derivation, I guess, from things that you're good at. And then once you are able to identify that zoom in and magnify that and then find where passion can kind of filter through that lens. Podcast Host 13:21 Yeah, I think that's a such a good tip. So yeah, it's kind of like not necessarily focusing on the big picture here is kind of like focusing on the niche type of thing. Like why do you enjoy math? Is it not necessarily because of the problem solving or that kind of stuff? Maybe it is, you know, the fact that you enjoy sitting next to the person in class, what's that connection that you have with that person, and explore that a little bit more explore the, you know, the winning side of things as you did and rescind your graduation, to enter Mexico, which is pretty cool. Okay, so we've explored passions, and I think we could explore this a lot more. For students who are interested in wanting to explore their passion, little bit more, maybe they could, you know, request a academic consultation with an academic advisor, I'll put a link down in the show notes for that. But let's get into the top tips for students to stand out to be the top of the class, we've covered a few bits and pieces already, but through your experiences, which are many and varied, what would be one or two of your top tips for students to stand out? Steve Han 14:16 Yeah, my first top tip would be start practicing your personal statement early, like start practicing writing that that 650 word personal statement limit that exists in the US at least is really niche and hard to hit naturally. And a lot of students are really bad at talking about themselves, like surprisingly. So I mean, I can't relate to that because I talk about myself way too much. But you know, for if you are bad at talking to yourself, that's okay. And that's actually probably good and your mental health is probably much more stable than mine. But what I will say is, you know, when you are, if you are bad talking about yourself, you need to practice being able to advocate for yourself and talking about yourself and answering a question that is about you, right, a lot of admissions questions aren't trying to trick you, but students get really tripped up in them, right. So for example, a really common essay ends up like is asking the question of writing about someone that's really inspired you or your that you look up to. It's a really common essay topic. And most students end up writing the entire essay about like this teacher that they'd hoped was amazing and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's great. But this school is not admitting that person, the school is admitting you so you have to remember how to bring it back to you. Right? So is that answering the question? Why are they a good teacher answer the question, why are they a good teacher? For you? Why are they specifically a good teacher? For you? What are the qualifications that you need to a teacher to meet to be able to be satisfactory to you? And why did they go above and beyond that right for you. So being able to bring it back to you is a really hard skill to hone in. But the students that have been practicing personal statements or writing an if statements are you know about themselves tend to do better in the essay arena. So that will always help a student. That's number one. And number two, if you're listening to this in ninth and 10th grade, my biggest recommendation is invest in yourself and allow yourself to go out for things that might scare you and build a diversity of interests for yourself. Because you are one allowing yourself to pick and choose from the best options for yourself when you get older when you are busier, and you have to hone in and go more depth rather than breadth. But to you know it, it just allows you to embed yourself so that when you apply as a senior, you have four years of experience to pull from your four years of experience to talk about your four years of experience going into university so that if you were to continue it, for example, you already have a plethora of experience as a first year rather than you know, needing to catch up as a first year. And I mean, so yeah, yeah. So invest yourself both with extracurriculars and practicing writing. Podcast Host 16:30 Steve, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom on the college chats today. It's been awesome having you on. As a quick reminder, you can request a free one hour consultation with a local Crimson academic advisor, there is a link in the show notes. And that will help you get you started on your journey to the world's top universities. And I hope students have learned a little bit more about how to put passion onto paper for their application. Steve Han 16:53 Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

#31 Starting a Million Dollar Investment Company in High School

🗓 JAN 30, 2021

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Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex cork, and today I chat with California based student Koki Mashita. Koki is the co founder of Lallic Partners, an investment firm managing more than a million dollars. We chat about how an interest in Bitcoin as a 12 year old became a fully fledged investment company, what he looks for in stocks, and how he turned his age into an advantage when pitching to potential investors. Let's chat with Koki Mashita. Koki, welcome to the Top of the Class, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Koki Mashita 00:50 Hi, thank you for having me. My name is Koki, I go to a boarding school in California. I'm a junior in high school. And I first started my business when I was 12. Now I'm working on an investment firm and a startup who help make reusable tampon applicators. Podcast Host 01:08 Okay, that's an interesting business for a young man to get involved in how'd you get involved in? Koki Mashita 01:14 Yeah, so me and my friend, we were in a startup incubator, and he's really like, into the scientific field. And we were like, what kind of product we can create, that can actually like help the environment because we were also really, like, worried about like, how we're polluting the environment with like plastics. And when we were researching was a lot about like, throwing away plastic applicators. Because, you know, I obviously had no idea. And when I came across it, I was like, I was really inspired to do something about it. And then now, we're trying to start a Kickstarter. Next month, I'm making a reusable tampon applicator. So it's pretty simple. And, you know, people can reuse it without like throwing the plastic away every time. Podcast Host 02:00 Right? Okay, that's fantastic. And talk to us about the startup incubator. So for those of us who might not know much about what happens at a startup incubator, how do you get involved? And what do you do when you're there? Koki Mashita 02:12 Yeah, so this startup incubator is actually really useful. I went to two actually, one was over the summer, it was for high school students. And then one was more flexible. I like the flexible part. Because it was more like I find my friend that I already know. And we go into this startup incubator, which I found on LinkedIn, actually, I think it's also really important to start networking as early as possible on LinkedIn. And then I found I found this guy called Patrick. And he introduced me to this to his incubator, and we joined for a few weeks, he actually learned a lot about like, how to create an idea first, how to develop that idea. And then how to like, expand with like, press in, you know, Kickstarter. And so it was really interesting. And then, yeah, so we go through that. It's like, it's like a class, online class. And then, yeah, after that, we can actually start making a company, Podcast Host 03:11 what were some of your main, or how big takeaway moments that you got from that startup incubator, that you were able to then apply to what you're doing now? And do you think, you know, has probably been one of the main reasons that you're able to now launch into a Kickstarter next month? Koki Mashita 03:25 Yeah. So actually, the most important part is believing what you make, and also having an a smaller team, I think with like, dedicated people. So I think that's actually really important. So before, in my investment firm, I had 15 employees, a lot of them were like analysts, and we were, and we weren't, like very effective, because we were just, you know, doing random stuff. It wasn't like properly organized. And so when I learned about it in the, in the incubator, we actually cut our employees into six, and like, mainly for people. And it actually worked really nicely, because we can have meetings all the time. And we can always like talk, and we can communicate and communication is really important. And then we can also find four people that are really dedicated, and like really inspirational. Podcast Host 04:18 And those other four people, are they students as well. Koki Mashita 04:20 Yeah, yeah, they're my age. And also, I think when having a startup when you're like, really young, I think it's really important to have fun, especially because you have school and you can get easily distracted. So um, yeah, all my coworkers are like really close friends. And I have a lot of fun during like the meetings. Podcast Host 04:43 Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You make that point because in the other interviews that I've done as well, where students are looking at creating organizations with other students, like student run organizations, or whether it be like a company or whether it be a not for profit, or whatever it might be. I have heard that a lot of students do struggle with that idea that As the team expands, there's you know, that periphery of like the 70 to 100% of people like the people who joined 70 to 100%, but then just, you know, usually joining for the resume padding, they're not necessarily joining to actually have an active involvement in the organization that they've joined, that they're joining mainly for the title. What was it like when you kind of had that moment? And then realize you had to cut X number of people 15, down to six? Was that a tough conversation to have? Or did those people kind of know what was coming? Koki Mashita 05:31 Yeah, so for us, we're just honest. And we were like, we know, like, you're kind of doing for college, and you know, you haven't been participating, which is a huge part, when it becomes evident. After they join, they don't really participate. You know, they don't like they miss meetings and stuff. So then we just email them, be clear about it, and then, you know, and then they will actually agree, for the most part. So then we were able to cut our team. Podcast Host 06:00 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. Also, I think, from the perspective of how do you create a company with staff as such, like you've turned your friends into colleagues? You know, when I go for a job at a company, for instance, they will typically ask me, what's your experience, and then I'll have to have a couple years of experience to point me in a particular direction for a particular role, whether that be marketing, or whether it be design or whatever it might be, when you're working with students who might not have much experience, or you literally just putting people in roles based on what they want to do. Koki Mashita 06:32 Yeah, that is actually a really good question. Because we were just talking about that, like a week ago in my in our meeting. So as we like, manage financial savings for other people, which is actually like, really risky. And so when I started by myself, I chose these three people, we actually had experienced, actually, we started investing in freshman year. So me and my two other friends, Charlie, and Eugene, we were just investing for fun. And we were like, Oh, it's actually really like profitable. And we can actually grow money without working out of like, a part time job, you know, because a lot of people, we see that they go, they go work for a part time job, we actually made honestly, more than the people working at part time jobs by sitting in our dorm rooms, because we were in boarding school. And that was really intriguing. And we made money while we were sleeping. So we found that ideas fascinating. So we just kept investing for three years. And then in 2020, when COVID hit, I was like, Oh, we should use our experience to do something. And we're actually pretty good at our performance. And so, you know, we had some experience. But one crucial point I was also looking at, was if they're actually invested into the idea, yeah, because it was cool, you know, people can get distracted really easily. And although experience is important, I think dedication is the most important because when they're dedicated, we can try to teach each other, we actually took like a lot of these courses like corporate finance Institute courses. And so dedication, I think, is really important. Podcast Host 08:10 Yeah, at the end of the day, like, it doesn't matter exactly what people's skills are, when you're in high school, it's more about Yeah, are you willing to keep doing it once exam start, because if people are going to be able to continue even managing a little bit of time to this kind of, you know, other company or whatever you're setting up, then that's super important if they just drop the ball completely, and they're like, I'm out, I got to focus on exams. I think a lot of students do that. Right. They get involved in extracurriculars. And as soon as the exam start, they just completely say, I'm study and nothing else. And I think that's very, very difficult to keep them involved in a team where other people are saying, No, I'll do study, but I'll continue to work on the company or whatever I'm doing at the same time. So I think it's at the very start trying to work out. Are you one of those people who will continue to manage it even during exams or not? And I think that's a that's a pretty good way to judge. I've got another question about starting investing. How old were you when you actually started to do investing? And what were you investing in? Koki Mashita 09:06 I was, well, I think I bought some Bitcoin that was my first investment. And it was totally just like, a gamble. Like, I researched 30 minutes about Bitcoin. And then I was like, Oh, this is nice. I bought it. I mean, now I'm making money off like $300 worth of Bitcoin. But that's what got me started. I was like, really excited. I was checking my phone every single minute outside of class, sometimes even in class, just looking at Bitcoin prices. And that was like really fine. And so at that time, I was in Singapore. And then when I moved to California, and in high school, me and my friends, were also interested in investing. So at the start, it was a lot of like, guessing we weren't as motivated to do a lot of research. So we kind of guessed, and we actually got lucky. And that actually, like drove us to do more. work. And so we started like actually researching what investing is. And we started doing due diligence and then investing. Podcast Host 10:07 Yeah, I love the start with Bitcoin. I know that there's been some questions that you've been getting from other students is like, how do you start when you don't have much capital? You must have only started as you said, like 300 bucks. Is that what you invested in Bitcoin at the very start? Koki Mashita 10:21 Yeah, I use my whole savings. Oh, wait, no, but so when I was around 12, I started this company called co lab in Singapore. So we were buying a used tech, like computers, I actually bought like 10 used MacBook Airs from school, because they were like, kind of like giving it away. And so I collected them, I cleaned them, I posted them on the internet, and then I would get buyers, and then I would go meet them. And so I had some money of that. So with that money I use for investment. So Bitcoin was my choice of investment. And then from there, of course, $300, even if it doubles, it's still $600 investing, you know, we actually need quite a lot of money to make, you know, substantial profits. And so to do that, of course, I had some family help. So my dad gave me $1,000. And so I have to, like, prove myself, right, because I was just, you know, guessing. And so he loaned me the $1,000. And we made this contract, which is really important, I think we I still do it, when he gives me money. And the profit I make, I take 60% of the profit, and my dad takes 40%. So he would have incentive to invest more when I make a lot of money. So this is actually like, really great. I like it better than just taking all the profit, because I would just feel bad for my dad. Podcast Host 11:48 Yeah. So you're got a kind of early stage investment company in a way with your dad, where he made his money in you, and he's expecting a profit. And you're taking the fees, I guess, as well, in this case, your phase are 60%. High, but it's still 40%, which is, which is great. Yeah, that must have been a really big kind of moment for you when you're like, Alright, you know, now I've got to get to work, I've got to make enough money for me to kind of make sense of this $1,000 loan, if I only get 60% of the profit. That's not a huge amount, but it gives me a bit more incentive to work and your dad's kind of like keeping an eye on you as well, right? Because he's interested in what kind of profits you're turning to, in terms of the research side of things, because this is something that has always befuddled me. I'm still like a 12 year old Kogi kinda like reading up on a stock for half an hour and be like, Yeah, sounds good to me have put some money into it. And there we go. So when you're researching a stock, or when you're researching investment, what are you looking for? Koki Mashita 12:49 For me, when I research I look at like, you know, I look at companies that are not written about and like Motley Fool, you know, a lot of these news articles on Market Watch. And then I find some of this company, like, for example, I found beyond me, and I was like, so intrigued as I bought an IPO. So this beyond me, company creates fake meat. So what I would do with beyond me, is I would look at the first of all the financials. So I find financials really important. So how much assets how much cash they have, and how much liabilities they have. And then there's this thing called current ratio, you look at the ratio between, and then what I actually did for this company, is I ordered beyond me to my house, and then I ate them if it's actually like, edible. Yeah. And when I ate it, it was actually really good. And so I was like, Oh, this can work. And with like, partnerships with like, McDonald's, I, you know, if that could happen, and like in countries, it would really work. And for me, my kind of expertise was knowing what Gen Z, like my generation actually interested into. And so beyond me, is actually quite interesting, because, you know, it's a vegetarian diet. And a lot of my friends I saw was go going vegetarian, which I thought I wouldn't do that. But it was really interesting. And so I saw that firsthand. And so, you know, I believed in what other people are doing. And so I kind of bought in with, of course, other research. And so I would read a lot of other analysts on research is actually available online for free. So I think reading a lot is really important. And then I found that stock, and then I bought it. Podcast Host 14:35 You bought it for around 65. But at IPO Is that right? Koki Mashita 14:39 Yes. 70. And then I sold it at 220. And then now I bought back at 120. A week ago, and now it's gone up actually. Podcast Host 14:47 It's gone up 17% just in the last day know that? Koki Mashita 14:51 Yeah. I knew that. Podcast Host 14:52 That's why you bought it up in the podcast, right? Because you're thinking, Hey, this is a stock that's doing pretty well. I mean, like it's so it's awesome. So you have at least tripled your money in some cases, for extra money when you sold it at 220. It's interesting you bought back in as well. But yeah, I think it's one of those things that stock investing i think is a pretty legit part time job once you get a bit of a handle on it, and you know exactly what you're doing, like my first part time job was probably the exact opposite of beyond meat. I worked at McDonald's. And as I'm sure a lot of other students have done, you know, fast food or retail, those kinds of things. Do you feel like what you're doing now is helping you understand what you want to do after school as well. Koki Mashita 15:30 Going into investing, I kind of thought of it as like a skill that I would use throughout my life. Because you know, financial, like management isn't everyone's lives. And I think no matter what job you have, you have to keep track of your money. And like invest. I thought it is a lifetime skill. But now, for my future, I think these stocks can also really helped me because I'm really interested into like economics as well. But the thing about stocks is actually like builds your character in terms of patience, and being able to like manage stressful times, which is really important. Because patience is really important. Even if stock goes down. If I believe in that stock, I have to wait a year or two years for it to go up. And so it really taught me about patience. Podcast Host 16:21 What skills do you need to be a good stock investor? I mean, you mentioned patience is like more of a characteristic or a quality rather than necessarily a skill. But when you're looking at stock investing from a skills perspective, which ones do you think would be advantageous for students, if they were to look into this kind of field and say, yes, there's something I want to do. Have you really good at maths is what I'm trying to say. Koki Mashita 16:44 And my morning school, like everyone's good or not, I'm on the not so good side. But being able to look at numbers is really important. But knowing what company does best in like an environment we have now is really important. And like being able to be shown like 200 pages of research, and then being able to dissect what's important off that really quickly is really important. For example, when you when I research a stock, I look at like 10, KS, and like earnings and stuff, it's quite long. So being able to speed through it, and knowing the important parts are really important. And also like understanding the market, like being able to proactively look at news is really important. Podcast Host 17:30 So when you're going through those reports, how long did it take you to get good at knowing what to look for? And did you do any learning or you said you did a couple of financial courses and those kinds of things? Were those the kind of things that helped you to understand what to look for? Or was it YouTube videos, or just experience or a combination of all of them? Koki Mashita 17:48 It's very unprofessional. But YouTube is actually really great. YouTube taught me how to invest how to like look at like, companies, they teach you how to read tenncare reports. And so when I first started, it took me like five hours just to read one. But when you just keep reading and reading and reading the same thing all over, because there's a fixed format of Yep, 10 Ks. And so you get used to it. Podcast Host 18:14 YouTube channel recommendations, what's your favorite one do you think? Koki Mashita 18:17 Learn to Invest - he's a he's a great value investor. So you focus on margin of safety, which is kind of like comparing the actual value of a company. Like let's say target's worth $10 per share, but it's actually trading at $5, then there's that 50% safety margin, Podcast Host 18:38 Right? So Learn to Invest might link that in the show notes as well. And what's your favorite metric for predicting a company's success? Koki Mashita 18:45 For long term, I wouldn't look at valuations too much, I would look at like, what the potential of that business to bring up beyond meat again, it has a lot of potential because tastes can improve, more people might go vegetarian as the world becomes more like fragile, so people will be more concerned. So looking at that, like 10, year 20 year even prospects, because the stock market always tries to predict the future. So even if you predict for 10 years, 20 years growth, your returns might come in two years. And then mid to short term, I would look at like intrinsic value, which is the actual value of the company, or like technical analysis, which is kind of like looking at charts and then looking at different link signals less definitely shorter. Podcast Host 19:33 It's something that you've probably been able to apply to your organization lolich partners. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. Because there's one thing to be investing your own money in. It's a completely different thing to be investing other people's money. So talk me through the initial founding of Lallic Partners, why you chose the name, etc. I think that's interesting. And then how did you start getting investors to invest in high school students? Koki Mashita 19:58 Okay, so the lolich name It's actually like a knockoff of Lilith and the flower. I chose that because like flowers bloom early, and we were kind of like early in investing. And so we call that Lallic partners, LLC. So then, you know, it's easier to Google when you search in Lallic Partners. And when we started off, we were like, $5,000. And then in 2020, March, when we first formed, we were like, 50,000, 70,000. Podcast Host 20:28 where's this money coming from? Is Koki Mashita 20:30 that coming from your investments? Or is that coming from other people, mostly from our investments, but from also, like, our parents were, you know, we build some trust. And we still had that 60 40%. And so from there, we formed our website and everything. And so we started finding the clients. So right now we're at about 1.0 5 million. And so what we did to get there was getting a pitch done, and getting a booklet done. And so we had to register as an LLC, and get a lawyer first, which was pretty costly, and to make sure everything was legal, because the last thing that clients want is part of like an illegal organization. You know, that's what we did. And then once we did that, we were just focused on performance, nothing else. And so we chose on a relative turns with focusing on the information ratio and focusing on performance. So the information ratio is comparing ourselves to a benchmark, like the s&p 500, and then also comparing the volatility to the benchmark. And so once the performance gets better than declines, when we reach out to them, they would be like, wow, because for us, we need to build credibility, we have like, zero or like negative credibility, because we're young, but on so once you build that performance, it kind of adds credibility. And the big part actually, is, it's kind of like when adults invest is kind of like, supporting the youth. And like, when we're investing, we would say, you know, we're really interested in investing. And when you invest in us, you'd help us grow as like investors and build our future, Podcast Host 22:11 you're kind of pitching it to the adults, or the, you know, parents, the group, and that kind of stuff that like, you can put your money into some other kind of young gun, Hot Shot type of thing. But if you invest with us, you're helping our future, you know, you're getting them in their fields, right to get him right in their fields to feel like not, don't invest in another guy's, you know, next BMW or whatever, invest in our future. Koki Mashita 22:35 Yeah. And whatever, like, intriguing point was, we know, the future, and we are actually the future. So you know, a lot of hedge funds are, like, really like, to be honest, they're, like, 6065, the managers. And so we were like, you know, we know the future, like we, you know, literally, like live next to them. So why don't you invest in us and like, that means you would also invest in the future, because we would invest into like, upcoming, you know, companies that can derive off Gen Z's like beyond me, Podcast Host 23:09 if you were talking to a student who wanted to do the same. Who wanted to start up their own investment company, what do you think would be your main pieces of advice that you'd give them to be able to do that successfully? Koki Mashita 23:19 Yeah, so the investment side is actually, I'd say, easier, because it's less like risky, when we're doing a company, you know, seed investments are in a much more risky, it can be all gone. But once we have some performance, I think we, you actually need performance to raise any money. Once you do that, you need to just reach out and like talk to like, anyone, if you said like a word to them before you have to reach out and like, even if they like reject you, I think it's important to keep reaching out to other people, because that's what I did. I used to spam 200, LinkedIn, Goldman Sachs people just to try to get an internship. You know, everyone said, No, but I think it's really important to not to give up. Podcast Host 24:05 And then on the company side, like actually building and creating a company, what would you say are some of the kind of more practical piece of advice you'd give to students? I mean, obviously, you had to make it legal. So you're getting a lawyer, and it was pretty important. But is there anything else that you would recommend for students who are wanting to set up their own investment company, Koki Mashita 24:24 for just building a company or like a startup? I think I was kind of being optimistic at first. So that's why I failed a lot. So one company I was trying to make was kind of like social media, but for summer camp owners who are looking for, you know, summer camp students. And we went to like the San Diego national like summer camp conference, and we realized that it's a lot harder than we thought it was actually like making a community online is really difficult. And so we realized, we need to be more realistic because you know, we're at Cool, and we can't be that motivated. If you know, we're gonna be done with a project in like five years. Yeah. So the thing is, you know, keeping your imaginations a little limited, I don't like to say that. But to be honest, that's what I did. And then once you have some like type of product, people actually want to support you. It's not that hard. People want to support, you know, high school students doing on startup middle school students making something that they like, they would actually support that. And so you can, you know, start raising literal money from everyone, then you can go from there. Podcast Host 25:38 Yeah, I think the important thing for me as well, having heard your story is, before you start an investment company is have performance and know what you're doing know what you're talking about, know the lingo. And if you are going to ask for other people to invest their money in you be able to show off what you've been doing, what your performance has been, what typical strategy you apply those types of things as well, in terms of the strategy side of things. Are you when you pitch allelic? Do you say that you're a rather aggressive company or that you invest in companies that are more up and coming kind of more IPOs? That type of thing? For people who don't know IPO? initial public offerings? please correct me if I'm wrong, cokie, I think you know this better than I do. But basically, when a company first lists their company on the stock exchange, and goes from a private company to a public company, they launch an IPO. So is that generally what you're doing? When you are pitching the company, you are trying to give me a bit of a sense of what strategy you typically use? Koki Mashita 26:37 Yeah, we do. Say that we like invest into upcoming stocks. But we but then when saying that, we realized, we kind of sound like people that don't know anything, and just investing into any IPO, because it's risky. And you know, you see it go up 100% in a day, you know, it seems that we're just gambling with their money. So we said, we balanced out that volatility, with more like safer assets, like blue chip companies that are part of the Fortune 500, we try to check the s&p 500 to make our performance more stable. So we buy like Microsoft, Costco, and large companies to show that we can generate like safe returns, like, you know, we need to keep up with like ratios like Sharpe ratio information ratio, to show the volatility. And so when saying that we can, you know, perform, like s&p 500, but a little better, then people are safe, because we kind of know that s&p 500, you know, on average returns, at least like 10%. And so people are like, not too scared to invest in us that can lose, you know, 30 k to $0. So, I think that helps us a lot like managing risk. Podcast Host 27:53 Yeah, I mean, I guess that's why people put money with people who are watching the stock market more regularly, is to avoid when that crash starts to happen. If it does happen, that you hopefully will know that people looking after your money and can manage that risk for you. Speaking of which, how do you manage your school on top of this? Because, in my mind, as you were checking bitcoin price fairly regularly, when you were 12 years old, it does require like a significant amount of attention. I mean, so how do you kind of stay on top of it, and make sure that you're managing school and managing the company and people's money at the same time. Koki Mashita 28:29 So I think, for one part, when, you know, schools became online, and I go to school in LA, so it's still online for quite a long time, it was really helpful, because I had a lot of free time. So in between classes, I would research but when in like school, like when physical school, I would sometimes go on my computer during class and check on like a stock and because you know, the mic gets opened during class. So I'm, like, pretty stressed about it. But I try to stay off that the most time I have is that weekend side sacrifice sometimes on like, you know, hanging out with my friends, I still prioritize that. I lose some sleep in between, but the weekend allows me to just, you know, focus on one thing and dive into it. And then, um, yeah, that's how I manage manage school and work. Podcast Host 29:24 And so you do a lot of Yeah, so you do a lot of writing on the weekends, then. Koki Mashita 29:28 Yeah, yeah. And during the week, I'd say in the mornings, but yeah, for people that like, wouldn't like you know, be checking the stock market or like researching all the time. I've been saying that. It's just much better to put it in, put your money into like an s&p 500 because that's just historically performs better, and you don't really have to worry about it. Podcast Host 29:50 What do your friends say about you running your own investment company? Is it like a normal thing your boarding school, or are you guys like is everyone look It used to be that the multimillionaires in the future. Koki Mashita 30:04 They think I'm crazy. So I guess it's like not as crazy because three of my other friends in the same school work in Lallic Partners. But when I first started, they were like, I'm definitely going to fail. Because you know, I don't know much about investing. And when people tell me is crazy, and like, when I sometimes declined an invitation to go out on the weekend, they were kind of like, I guess, kind of mad or like, but I had to deal with that first. But now people don't see me as that crazy anymore. I think when people started, like companies in high school, we're kind of like a little bit crazy. I think, to be honest, we need to be crazy to like start a company in high school. Like it totally doesn't make sense, right? Because we don't have any experience. We don't have any money. Yes, I'm a little bit crazy on that side. Podcast Host 30:55 Well, yeah, but when it works, it works. Right? And even if it doesn't work, you would have fantastic experience. But where are you at right now? And what you think, you know, Lallic Partners could be and where you want it to be. Koki Mashita 31:05 Yeah. So when I started, I had an optimistic goal of having a million dollars by 2021. Summer. But luckily, we reached that earlier, but I don't know. But I'm not like satisfied. So you know, we keep on setting higher goals. And I think that motivates us. Having those are really important. And especially like, deadlines are really important. Because when I'm working with friends, it's hard to keep an account and if they're actually like doing work, and so we set up deadlines so that I don't procrastinate because I procrastinate a lot. Right, yeah. So you're you're trying to keep the company moving, even though everything's going on at school and Coronavirus and everything else, which is super important. So yeah, that sounds like you're well on track, though you certainly a million dollars before summer, Queen 21. But I failed a lot. And I think I think it's really important to like not give up. And I think my dad told me this. And this is like, the best thing is said to me is like starting a company, when you're young, like you literally have nothing to lose. Yeah. And so you fail 100 times, you're just wasting, not wasting, but you're spending time and you're gaining that experience, you can honestly put it on your college application also. But when you fail, you don't have to have any bills to pay. And especially what's interesting, when raising money for a startup, we recently raised money for the reasonable applicator. And on our expense report. There's $0 for salary and salaries, you know, first startup, it can take like $60,000 per year, we're at zero. So we were able to raise small money, but use that money for a lot more than what adult like startups can. Podcast Host 32:53 Yeah, is that what need to pay salary straightaway. And you're saying, well, we're at a boarding school and like our parents are paying our phase at the moment to where sweet men have to pay salaries at the moment, which is awesome. So you're able to kind of any money that you raise for that company, you're able to put directly into like r&d or advertising and those kinds of things, right? Yeah, yeah. Which is awesome. How easy or hard is it to let go of an idea once you've kind of tried it. And you obviously thought a lot about like the summer camp idea, and you really wanted it to work. But how hard is it to let go of an idea and be like, Oh, that's not working, I want to move on to the next. Koki Mashita 33:29 I think it's very easy for me, especially as like high school students, I think that's a really like good point to us. Because we were able to switch to different ideas really quickly. Because, you know, we don't have much bills to pay again. And we don't need that stability that a lot of adults need. And so for us when you know, we went to that conference, it's gonna be like 100 K to build our platform, we were like, Okay, this is not happening. Let's just cut our losses there. Because as the time goes on, and this, we just spend more time trying to be attached myself to this idea. I'm just wasting time. So to kind of deal with this sense of loss, I tried coming up with new ideas. And yeah, so it's kind of like a pivot. Podcast Host 34:16 Yeah, I really love that. I like that idea of cutting your losses, and that you fill the void with even more ideas. I think there's a lot of students who and adults and whoever, just anybody really, who when they attach themselves to an idea, and they get really excited by an idea when they hit a roadblock. It's kind of that it's a bit of, I guess, an interesting moment for people because in life, you get told, you know, don't give up like just keep going put your nose to the grindstone and like, try again, try again. And then there's other people who are like no, economics says opportunity costs. If you keep focusing on this thing too much, you're going to waste more money. It's not going anywhere and you could miss the opportunity to do something else. So yeah, how do you go way up that mental side vein like the practical side of opportunity cost versus the mental side or that kind of thing that is celebrated all the time, which is never give up? Koki Mashita 35:09 And is a really good question, because I think never giving up is really important. But I think I interpreted it differently than what other people might have thought. I think I wasn't about like marrying one idea and seeing it till the end, which is quite economically impossible, I wouldn't be able to raise $100,000. So never giving up I think was never giving up on trying to build something, create something and then sell something that I really believed in. So in a way, when I faced this 100 k Roadblock, I kind of pivoted found a whole new idea. I didn't give up just because one idea that I spent three months on didn't work out, I tried to stay very positive when roadblocks happen, I just think what can I do? Maybe I can try to find a new idea. So I just looking for some opportunity. I haven't given up for the 100 k roadblock. Maybe I can try going over that. But I looked at other opportunities. But luckily, I found the different opportunities. So I went there instead. Podcast Host 36:18 It's kind of like not giving up on the idea of being an entrepreneur. Right. Yeah, kind of saying, you know, the, the entrepreneurial journey can take many different forms, but I'm not going to give up on that journey. I'm going to pivot and go in this direction instead. And as you said, like not marrying any one idea. And I think that's super important as well. Who are some of the people that you aspire to or some of the kind of people that you like to follow online. Koki Mashita 36:41 On Investment terms? I have a lot of people that I look up to, like Ray Dalio, Warren Buffett, they're really good investors. Podcast Host 36:51 Also, you did a totally Warren Buffett thing by ordering the beyond meat because he's always like, he's always like, if you want to know a product or service is good, go to the store, like buy the things like actually test it out. Right? Like it's no point investing in beyond meat. He didn't have actually tried it. Like if you ordered beyond meat, and it tasted terrible, you'd be like, Oh, well, I'm not gonna invest in this company. Right? But you ordered it and he was like, I was pretty good. Koki Mashita 37:13 Warren Buffett's actually a really good example of finding the in between of not giving up and also cutting losses. Because when he like, believes in, like in a company like Coke, he drinks it every day. He doesn't stop he markets for them, like every single day. But when they realize a company's not good, he kind of sells it quite easily. I think that's I admire for him. But in business terms, my dad's really inspirational. He was not doing very good in college. But he started like designing websites when he was 19. So that's the idea I got from him to start early. And the valuable lessons he taught me was the best time to to start a startup is now if you wait, you know, you're too late. Podcast Host 37:56 It's a an investor as well. I'm gonna guess he has some investments, if not in your company in elsewhere. Koki Mashita 38:01 Yeah. But he's not an investor. Podcast Host 38:03 Right. So he was just like, gave you that kind of entrepreneurial spirit. Right? Koki Mashita 38:07 Yeah, we're actually helping, like other high school students on totally for free on, like, how to invest, like how to make like reports on like investing. And then we would actually, if it's good, we would post it on our own website and stuff. Podcast Host 38:22 And so that's all on your website, or for free access, like free resources. Koki Mashita 38:25 Yeah. If they reach out to us, there's an application form. But if they get through that, we would teach everything. Podcast Host 38:32 Once. If students wanted to get in contact with you and wanted to connect with you what would be the best way, Koki Mashita 38:36 you can go to my email, or you can just search up Lallic partners, or my Instagram is Koki.mashita. Podcast Host 38:49 And then you're on LinkedIn as well? Koki Mashita 38:51 LinkedIn is just Koki Mashita. Podcast Host 38:53 Yep. Awesome. Well, I'll put some of those links in the show notes as well. And I hope people kind of, you know, listening to this. I know that man, there's been some amazing young people that I've seen online who are really into investing, and could take that leap into starting a an investment firm. And I think that's a really exciting and potential leap towards you know, replacing that part time job like you don't need to go to McDonald's or you don't need to work at retail. As a high school student. You could do something completely different and as you did, and start your own investment firm. Well, thank you so much for joining the top of the class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on and look forward to sharing this episode far and wide. Koki Mashita 39:38 Thank you so much. Podcast Host 39:38 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes. For show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

#30 Starting a Podcast in High School and Creating a More Inclusive Hong Kong

🗓 JAN 27, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with Hong Kong based student Angelina. Angelina is the host and creator of the on my mind podcast and is a member of inclusivity Hong Kong. Being an international student, Angelina has been educating herself about race and diversity. We chat about her experiences in Hong Kong, how to start a podcast and the positives that can come from not knowing what you want to do after high school. Let's chat with Angelina. Hi, Angelina, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a bit about yourself? Angelina 00:50 Yes, hello. I'm glad to be on. My name is Angelina. I've come from Germany and Switzerland. And now I live in Hong Kong. I've been living here for one and a half years. And I'm currently in 11th grade doing the IB Diploma program. Podcast Host 01:08 Yeah, yeah. Well, the short synopsis of what you've been or where you've been living all this time, you're an international student in every sense of the word you've kind of lived everywhere. What do you think that has given you in terms of like, a different perspective on the world? Angelina 01:24 Yeah, that's interesting, because I think the the really the international part came in when I moved to Asia, because I think living in Europe was was obviously it was great, but it was, it didn't really offer a totally new perspective. Obviously, I met a lot of friends from around the world. And I have friends from around the world, which is always great, because you just see things from different perspectives. And like one of my friends right now, she's Swedish. My other best friend is from Turkey. And but I think living in in Asia now. One, I think it's um, this sounds kind of strange, maybe. But one of the biggest things I started becoming more aware of is, I guess, race, and where I stand on that. And it's, it's interesting, because I was never like a minority before. And obviously, I'm a privileged minority here. But it's given me a lot of insight into the the topic of race and racism, discrimination. And it's really sparked my interest in it, because especially it's, it's funny, because I, when I moved here, I got a lot of our I got some comments from some of my friends saying, Oh, that's such a white thing to do, or Oh, you're so white, which I had never gotten before. And at first it was it was a bit weird, because I was like, like, What do you mean? Like, how is this? How are they meaning this? And, yeah, so I think that that has really shaped my perspective on on the issue of race specifically? Podcast Host 02:50 Yeah, it's something that I'm sure a lot of international students in particular feel whether they are, you know, Asian students or any other ethnicity in or basically a minority within a majority population type of thing. Is it something that you feel as though as a student, you have the power to make a difference in or raise awareness of I mean, I get I feel like you tried to raise awareness of the discrimination that you're potentially feeling as a white person. Do you think people might be like, oh, Jay, sorry, you know, discriminated white people. Oh, my gosh, how sad and how tough you must must have that type of thing. Do you feel like that? Is that kind of backlash if you're trying to create change as a white person who feels discriminated against? Angelina 03:33 Yeah, I mean, I never feel discriminated against. And I'm always very careful about how I phrase things, because I'm very aware that reverse racism isn't a thing. Like you can't really be racist to a white person. I'm just given the historical context. That's not a thing. And I've really just worked on I've read a lot of books about this issue. And I think that's really helped me to understand better, what what is racism? What is race? How do actually, you know, people who are discriminated against feel? And often you know, there's there's a book that I recently read called why I'm no longer talking to white people about race. And the title really sparked my interest. Yeah, so I think it for me, it's been about Yes, obviously, raising awareness. But I've always I've been very careful. I've been tiptoeing a little bit, trying to educate myself to make sure that I don't do anything that's insensitive. And I guess that comes along with it. Podcast Host 04:29 Yeah, well, I think that's an incredible Well, a very important first step right is to educate yourself on the topic. And I guess for myself, like it's an area that everybody around the world has been exposed to, at a greater extent due to the BLM Black Lives Matter movement. Yeah. And I think everybody is kind of recognize their privilege, or whiteness or ethnicity or diversity or sense of religion or all these different things that have certainly come to light It is important, I think, to educate yourself. Is there ever been a moment where you felt like you had overstepped or said something out of turn or perhaps use the wrong language, right? Because there's such power in language, particularly around race at this point, you just pointed out to me discrimination versus exclusion versus SAT, you know, all these different subtleties around language that are involved with race, is there been a moment where you're like, oh, gosh, I really need to educate myself. So I don't make this mistake. Again, Angelina 05:32 I wouldn't say there was a specific moment, I but I think I've just been around people who are very aware of those little subtleties. And so that's opened my eyes to it as well, that I can't just throw all these terms around interchangeably, or say things like, Oh, that's, you know, you're being too sensitive or whatnot. And I've really tried to listen to other people. And I guess that also comes in with my podcast. And just seeing, seeing what other how other people see it and try to educate myself through, for example, I did a podcast with a guy who's also in Hong Kong, and he's Indian. And so he in Hong Kong, in his school, felt some a little bit of discrimination. And it was mainly how, like language, his peers used Little things like microaggressions. And I was never so aware of how what impact those comments can have on others. And that really opened my eyes to it. Podcast Host 06:35 Yeah, I think there's a lot of people who can walk blindly through the situation, particularly if they're not necessarily the target of these microaggressions, or these kind of little moments that they might not pick up on unless they hear it from someone else. And as they hear that, Oh, no, these microaggressions definitely affect me. It's something that I notice every day. Like, it's something that's a part of my life, but it's something that I wish wasn't a part of my life. Yeah. So it's definitely something that I'm really happy that you're at least raising awareness of it. And I think it's a topic that a lot of people just prefer to tiptoe around it or not mention it, for fear of saying the wrong thing. Yeah. How has your experience been in addressing the situation or addressing the topic of racism? Angelina 07:19 Yeah, as I mentioned before, I think listening is really important. Don't, especially if you're a white person, don't assume that your answers are right. But I also think it's important to, once you have you know, educated yourself a little bit on it, that you do form your own opinions, and that you, you definitely speak out about it, whether that be through little things such as just initiating those conversations with your family, which is something that I've done, and which has been really interesting, because my family has, you know, also brings in some different perspectives as well, which I like to hear. So you can either do that, obviously, you can initiate bigger conversations, you can advocate for it. And I think it's really important to start locally as well. And and try and yeah, I guess, I mean, I can't say you can't like change or eradicate racism as a whole. But I think starting with those uncomfortable conversations is a good place to be at. Podcast Host 08:18 Yeah, well, it's something that I commend you for. And I think most students should try and raise the topic and educate themselves or one or the other. You know, educate yourselves and then raise the topic potentially, or speak to someone who you feel does know more about this topic. I think it's a really important thing. And obviously, you're having broached the subject on your podcast, we're going to be talking about how to start a podcast in high school, which I think is an awesome leadership project and an awesome way to connect with a wider community. Yeah, let's get into that. So first thing, what's your podcast call? Let's give it a let's give it a shout out. Angelina 08:53 Yeah, my podcast is called on my mind podcast. You can find it on Spotify and Apple podcasts. Podcast Host 09:00 Great, fantastic. So on my mind, and why a podcast I know, like 2020 was, you know, the year of the podcast, boom, it's the year that I started to become a podcaster as well. And I don't know if anyone else any of our listeners or yourself Angelina are on LinkedIn. But it felt like every second post was either someone who was promoting their podcasts or telling people about an episode that they were featured on like it, boom, obviously, because of pandemic and people just became so much more familiar with zoom and online calls and everyone just became more contactable. But what was your decision between you know, starting a podcast versus starting a blog versus a YouTube channel or perhaps doing nothing like why did you see the value in a podcast? Angelina 09:41 Well, first off, I I really enjoyed listening to podcasts. I don't know how many other teenagers my age, listen to podcasts, but I thought it was a really great way to educate myself while on the go, you know, it's like I can be on the bus and I don't have to be like reading a book. And I also think that So many teenagers have really great things to say have really super interesting stories to share. But I just feel that there's not really a platform to do this. And obviously, yes, we have social media, we have Instagram, but you're always limited to like one post or a short paragraph on someone's story. And I just felt like it wasn't valuable enough. And I just, I mean, I like speaking as well. And I like speaking to others. I like having conversations. And so I just thought, I don't know podcasts is a great way to combine all those things. Podcast Host 10:35 Yeah. So take me through your from idea to execution. Right, that timeline. I'm always fascinated by this whole kind of like, starting having the idea to actually getting the first podcast published and out into the world. What was that timeline? Like? And can you talk me through some of the major steps? Angelina 10:53 Yeah. So honestly, it's hard to say when exactly I pinned down that idea. I think I remember telling my parents, this was summer of between 10th and 11th grade. So it was summer break. So I was a little bit bored. Like I didn't have that much to do, especially because of the pandemic. And I remember, I like quickly pitched the idea to my parents. I was like, Oh, I'm interested in starting a podcast. And they're like, okay, yeah, like, they didn't think I was gonna go through with it. And then I remember one of my friends, she's, she's really good at like, artwork. And she, she takes classes. And so I kind of asked her, like, Hey, I'm thinking of starting a podcast, like, what do you think? Would you want to help me maybe do the cover, like the design, and she was really enthusiastic about it. And so together, we we made the the artwork for it. Um, which that didn't take too long. And I think the whole process was maybe like, two weeks or something from really getting it up. And then, yeah, I just did a little bit of research. There's a ton of websites out there that explain how to start a podcast. And I kind of just loosely follow that. And, and yeah, and then I put up a quick introduction episode. And then I set up an Instagram, I tried to promote it a little bit. I'm still working on that. Not the best at it. But yeah, and then I started posting the episodes. So that's Yeah, that was kind of my process. Podcast Host 12:31 Yeah, I think it's probably easier than a lot of students think. I think a lot of people think, Oh, I gotta start a podcast, my gosh, it sounds like a big thing to do. But really, once you've got the idea, and once you've got the artwork, you're most of the way there, it feels very real. When you've got the name, the idea. And the podcast artwork, you're just a couple of steps away from like, having a host, which you have buzzsprout, as also top of the class is hosted on vast grounds. For those students who are out there, basically, when you have a podcast host, which is something like a buzzsprout website, then when you publish your episode on buzz, Brad, it automatically gets published to, you know, servers like Spotify or Apple podcasts, or like you have to list the podcasts in those in those spaces. Yeah, but if you do list it, it will pretty much immediately appear, wherever you want to list the podcast. So but yeah, the promotion side of things. I think for any students who are wanting to start a podcast or interested in starting one, that's a challenge, and something that I'm still working on as well. And I heard one experience podcasters say that if you're spending an hour on an interview, you'd be spending three or four times that on promotion. Angelina 13:42 Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, don't do that. Podcast Host 13:45 Yeah. So that's like creating clips that's like, you know, sharing the maybe kind of a prior post up on LinkedIn or Instagram, when the episode gets published on Twitter, you want to be able to make sure that your guest is also sharing it with their network as well. To try and find relevant Facebook groups potentially or relevant other, you know, organizations that might share the post or might share that the episode. So it's all these bits and pieces that really come into it building an email list. If you're going to do that. I think it's a really good marketing exercise and a communication exercise. But I'd love to hear from you. What have you got out of it since starting the podcast? Angelina 14:23 Yeah, I'm so on the social media and like marketing sides of things. It's, it's that's been, I think, one of the biggest challenges because, yeah, it's interesting because numbers, like the number of listeners always fluctuates, and I, I try to see, well, like why could that be? Is it because I didn't promote it that much. Is it because that's a topic that's maybe less interesting to people. And I've tried, I've tried to get a little bit better at it. What I've done, what you mentioned, is uh, have little clips and post those because I think that can be really interesting for For people who are just scrolling through and then see a short clip, and they're like, Oh, I want to listen to it. Yeah, I mean, also just telling people in real life, I guess, yes, I 15:10 have a podcast. Podcast Host 15:11 Yeah, I was doing it just this weekend. I'm doing a dance rehearsal at the moment for a wedding that's coming up. So one of those things that you know, when you're in your 30s, I guess, but anyway, one of the one of the other guys in the retains a younger guy, 17. I'm like, how are you? 17? Do you listen to podcasts? I've got a podcast. And so yeah, always. I mean, like, it's one of those things as a podcast, you're always pretty keen to grow your audience, because traditionally, you don't put too much budget behind the advertising. So if students are out there thinking, Oh, a podcast sounds pretty expensive. You can actually do it fairly cheaply, right? You can have the bus route subscription, which is, you know, a couple of dollars a month. Yeah. And if you're doing it via air pods, like I've got a microphone and headphones, and 15:53 you don't have I don't have the fancy technology. Yeah, Podcast Host 15:55 you don't really need all that stuff. Right. And you can do the editing software for free. I use Audacity. I'll put all links in. Yeah, I use Audacity as well. Right. Right. So I'll put a link to the blog article I wrote about, like how to start a podcast in high school. And that covers a lot of these bits and pieces as well. But yeah, it's actually pretty cheap to start and pretty easy to get going. But it's really interesting that you, you're getting a lot of experience with the marketing and social media side. How about the idea of like growing your network, contacting guests finding questions to answer because you're actually becoming like, a bit of a journey at the same time, like bit of like journalistic skills that you're building in this process? How have you found that side of things? Angelina 16:34 Yeah, well, in the beginning, and so far, it's been mostly my friends, but often also people that I I know, but I'm not like super close with, but that I know, have, you know, certain, I guess, skill set or are educated on certain topics, or are involved in some things so that they could Yeah, speak about this? And I've kind of tried to contact speakers that I've heard from and some workshops, contacting people over email, Instagram, and yeah, it is tough, because a lot of the time I don't get any replies, which is okay. And it's, it's part of the process, I guess. And so, you know, I just keep reaching out to people pitching what my podcast is. And hopefully, that's something that I can improve on in the future as well and get more, I guess, yeah, high profile speakers on. But I think I also, I also really appreciate the insights that my peers have. Podcast Host 17:32 Yeah, well, I'm gonna put you on the spot right now. What's the pitch for the online podcast? Angelina 17:38 Well, on my mind podcast is a podcast that speaks to a young audience that has issues that are relevant to a young audience. So that includes things like Black Lives Matter, movement, mental health, how to not go crazy at school, how to take care of yourself. And it's a it's a safe space to have discussions to grow, and inspire people through dialogue. Podcast Host 18:07 Nice. I love it. Well, if any of our listeners are interested in being on the show, I don't know if any of your guests from outside of Hong Kong or if that's a usual thing, but Angelina 18:16 yeah, I mean, a lot of them are also my friends from Switzerland. But I've had a couple people, ya know, from outside Hong Kong. Podcast Host 18:23 Awesome. Awesome. So if any of our listeners out there who are interested on ballenas podcast, we'll put your contact details to that. Class, 18:31 please reach out. Podcast Host 18:32 Yeah, of course, it was always good to give a podcast a shout out. I think it is a really interesting medium for students to use. And you did mention that you probably not too sure how many teenagers actually listen to podcasts at this stage? Angelina 18:45 I agree. I saw definite like a gap there as well. Podcast Host 18:48 Yeah, yeah. So for any listeners out there, I think the podcast space for high schoolers, teenagers is something that's really interesting. And it's an area that I think has a lot of potential to grow. It's just a matter of starting it. And as we've both kind of attested to, it's actually not that hard to start one. So yeah, no, it's not reached out to us if you have any questions about starting a podcast as well, which is always good fun. Now, one thing I did notice about your podcast is the podcast release dates vary a little bit. Some you've got within like a week of each other, and then somebody like two weeks, three weeks, I think that actually is a good thing, particularly if you are a student, because I think a lot of people would say, Yes, I want to do a podcast, but I don't want to have the pressure of having to release a podcast every single week. Did you originally approach the podcast with that intention to have a podcast every single week and then it kind of fell by the wayside exams or something got in the way, and then you were like, oh, every third week, where every second week or just when I've got an episode to publish, I'll publish. Angelina 19:53 Well, since I started it during the summer, I had quite a lot of free time on my hands and so that's when I was posting them quite frequently. And then school started up and I was like, I have a lot to do. And so I just yeah, I couldn't keep it up doing one every week. And so it started becoming less frequent. And I, I told myself, I don't want to just like drop it, you know? And then because I feel pressured to do it every week, and then I don't do it at all. So I was trying to be easy on myself and tell myself It's okay, if I do one, maybe just every month? Because also, I think listeners don't always tune in every single week. Yeah, I think sometimes it's good to give people like time to, like, finish the episode. But yeah, I tried to be less harsh on myself. Podcast Host 20:36 Yeah, exactly. And I think also understanding you know, what your audience is likely to do or their habits, as you said, most audiences probably won't listen to a full episode in a week. I know, some of my episodes fluctuate, you know, massively depending on the topic, or depending on who shares it. All kinds of factors, depending on the length or duration of the podcast, I'm actually thinking of doing some, like shorter versions, all kinds of things. But I think it's a great way to, for students. I mean, like, 10 years ago, everyone was blogging, everyone had a blog. Yeah. And now I feel like it's one of those things that you could start up a podcast fairly easily. And it's a great way I particularly found it a great way to expand a network. So for me, like I've been in contact with students from all around the world, and have really, you know, tapped into some great organizations, some great high schools and learned so much from all of my guests. We've been awesome, you know, and as I'm learning from you today, as well, you know, diversity and the experience of an international student, which I never had myself. So I think it's, it's a really great way to engage with the wider community and doesn't matter if you're in year seven, or you're in year 12, or whatever it is, the podcast is a good place to start. Now, I want to get back to the diversity side of things is I understand you've got another project that's specifically related to that area. Can you talk me through that at all? Angelina 21:51 Yeah, so I'm actually part of an organization that's founded in Hong Kong and based here called inclusivity, Hong Kong, and it was actually founded by one of my friends, and I joined the team fairly recently. And it's been really cool because it's fully a student led organization. And we kind of aim to, I guess, address discrimination in schools, make learning spaces more inclusive. So as part of inclusivity, although I'm not quite working on that side of things, we actually have a podcast. And right now we're in the midst of charting, starting up chapters, at different schools, as well as Hong Kong University, which is really cool. So that's been a really fun experience. Podcast Host 22:36 Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And I think student led organizations have so much opportunity for growth. I think, traditionally, students look to big organizations and say, Yes, I'm going to join that organization, because they've got volunteer opportunities. But generally speaking, there's very little chance for upward movement in those organizations, right? Like, if you start as a volunteer, and you're a student, that's where you're going to stay. Yeah, at least for a little while. Whereas in a student led organization, you could get in and then very quickly be like, Vice President of lead organization, right. 23:09 That's true. Yeah. Podcast Host 23:10 What have you done so far? And has it been perhaps more than you expected? Well, it's Angelina 23:15 interesting, because I think it hasn't been like a fully upwards curve, always. And I think I'm learning as we go, that it takes a lot to really grow and build and sustain an organization. And it's, it's not a simple task, which, yes, sounds obvious. But once you're actually amidst it, you realize how much effort really takes. And so we were kind of in a little bit of an off phase for a while. But I think now we've come back stronger, we've come back with, again, like I said, plans to start individual chapters and kind of trying to reach out to schools and find volunteers who want to start a chapter or initiative at their school, and then kind of oversee that. And then, in those chapters, are planning on kind of maybe inviting some guest speakers having some book discussions, watching some TED Talks. Yeah, and really have a space for for meaningful discussions and where people can come in and feel safe for work, people can come and just, you know, listen, and Podcast Host 24:20 it's so important, actually, to for many students, school isn't a safe place. And even having that recognized and having a student organization, recognizing it, I think, is even more important than perhaps an official kind of like adult led organization because it feels almost a little bit forced, right? Whereas like to know that you've got allies in your school, who are volunteers of this organization. And, you know, the students who might be having a tough time could even become volunteers of the organization as well, to kind of have a voice to this issue, which is very, very real. Yeah, that's really interesting and in terms of getting involved is it something That other students could look into. I mean, they might not be able to start their own chapter unless it's kind of like related to the Hong Kong one. But I know that certainly students around the world would probably be interested in at least the model that you guys are following. Angelina 25:13 Yeah. So it's if you're not in Hong Kong, it's hard right now, because we're still trying to get this done and get this right, if that makes sense, and then maybe later branch out to some other parts of the world? Podcast Host 25:26 Yeah, well, we'll see how we go. Hopefully, a couple students can look at that model. And at least say, hey, yeah, that's something that I might be able to start in my own school. Yeah. Because if you've got issues at your school, or if you feel that that's something that you're interested in, I think that if you if you're interested in it, there might well be listening to this podcast. So yeah, it will be a thing that you want to try and get started in your own school as well. Now, one thing that I am interested in as well is Hong Kong, for those people who might not know, but for you, who have been there for the last year and a half, has had a lot of ups and downs over the last 18 months, you know, not just the current pandemic, of course, but everything politically. And it's been very, very tumultuous for a range of reasons. And we won't go into, you know, who's right or who's wrong. But obviously, like, there has been a lot of activism in Hong Kong. Yeah. Massive student activism in particular. People who aren't aware like, I think it was Hong Kong University, was it? Yeah, yeah. It was, it Angelina 26:23 was a bunch of universities. Yeah. Yeah. Podcast Host 26:27 So it was really, really full on and like student activism, particularly like young college student activism. Yeah. When sky high, like it became like the news around the world of what was going on in Hong Kong. How do you feel that has affected or impacted high school students, and their thoughts around having a voice and being more active in speaking out about things like inclusivity? speaking out about, you know, topics that you're addressing in your podcast? Do you feel like it's become more of the norm there in Hong Kong, because of what's happened over the last kind of 18 months? Angelina 27:01 That's an interesting take on Actually, I never really thought of it in that sense, after sound pretty privileged, because the, obviously, the protests affected me, but less than maybe with other people. But I think, for me, and I, for a lot of other students, it's made us a lot more politically aware, just aware of politics in general. And then I think if you were in Hong Kong before, and like politics didn't really affect you. And you're like, Okay, I don't really care as much. I think now, that perspective is changed. And I know a lot of students now are, like, closely follow politics now, especially obviously, American politics. But yeah, and I'm not sure how, how does exactly change the high school activism, I wouldn't say it has had a huge impact on it. Because for a lot of students, I think this was an area that they have to tiptoe around. And it was so controversial, is so controversial. Podcast Host 28:02 Yeah, well, it's interesting, because I think here in Australia, just, you know, from my personal experience, there's not as many like crazy, outrageous, controversial things that are going on in Australia. And so the students are generally less I would say, Please, students, if you're out there, correct me if I'm wrong. But I generally think that students in Australia are probably less politically aware, or even if they are politically aware, they're probably not as geared towards activism as such, right, or feeling as though that they can have a say in the matter, like they might be politically aware, but they might not necessarily go out and make a change. I was really impressed in Australia, actually, when they did the the climate strike. And I'm sure you know, yeah, Hong Kong, that was the thing potentially, as well, like around the world. Everyone was doing climate strike. Yeah. And you know, the politicians here in Australia were like, Oh, you should just go back to school type of thing. And I'm learning this is a great opportunity to learn about activism and to learn about having a voice and you can create art and make a lovely poster, or like slogans, and all these different things that can actually come from having a voice and protesting and having advocacy, which I think is super, super important. But yeah, I think it's a, I think a lot of students probably underestimate the power that they have in terms of their own voice. Is that something that you have? Or you previously thought that maybe coming around to the idea that students have like a really strong voice? You know, even through your podcast through inclusivity, you kind of understanding that student voices is a really important part of the landscape of communication in any particular city. Angelina 29:36 Yeah, I definitely think so. I mean, that's like the whole reason I started my podcast is because I felt that student voice was so prevalent, so important, I think now, especially with social media, like we're all connected, right, and someone across the world could be listening to this podcast and somehow be maybe inspired by or influenced by it or have an idea and so I think that is really powerful in terms of connecting people, and really having a, I guess, a global movement of really engaged students, which I think is super cool. Podcast Host 30:12 Yeah. And I think students need to realize that whilst getting grades are important and everything, sometimes being involved in activism and looking outside of your exam grades, can really help you figure out what you want to do after school and can really help you pave a path in whatever you want to do. Which brings me to my next question, what is ahead for you? Your you don't have long left of school? What do you see yourself doing after school? What are you aiming for? Angelina 30:40 That's a good question. It's something I try and figure out every day. And I think about every day, because I think I have a diverse set of interests. I like science, I take biology higher level. But I also am very passionate. I mean, I take history and English. And so I love like the creative arts literary arts, I write poetry, which is, which I really enjoyed doing. And I think I'm also interested in politics. Like I mentioned, I became a lot more politically aware recently. And so I'm thinking I don't have the exact major pin down, but along the areas, maybe, you know, international development, politics, something along those lines. Podcast Host 31:23 Yeah. And is there any particular university or college that you're aiming for? Again, I'm Angelina 31:27 researching it? Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking of applying to the US and the UK. And to be honest, there's not one like dream university that I have. And I'm just very focused on like, trying to get the grades and trying to keep up everything else right now that I haven't had time to fully, like, find that one dream university that I want to go to. Podcast Host 31:50 Right now you got plenty of time, I guess? Well, some people would say you don't. But you can, you can keep putting, you know, the college research on the to do list and get around to it, when you do have that more time to really figure out what you want to do. I always say to students as well, that sometimes not knowing exactly what you want to do is great, because it gives you an opportunity to listen to other ideas and to be open to new possibilities. I think some students kinda pick a path, and then put their head in the sand and don't want to hear anything else. Like that's going to be their path. And sometimes like there could be a great opportunity or something, you know, they'll learn about something new, or they'll read about something new. And if they didn't have their head in the sand, they would follow that opportunity a little bit further and see where it goes. So I always say like, the best part about not knowing what you want to do is you want all the doors open. Angelina 32:45 I see that. Yeah, I see that so often here, especially in in Asia, where people are very, very driven here, which was that was also a big difference compared to Switzerland. People are extremely driven, and have specific career paths in mind. And that was like quite intimidating to me. I mean, obviously, I think it's incredibly cool. If you already have that passion, you know what you want to go for. But I also think that like you said, at times, it can hinder you a little bit because I think I listened to this TED talk once that was basically the message of it was like humans aren't just created to have one passion and to do one thing in life. Like, we have a diverse set of interests. And sometimes, you know, we want to pursue a range of jobs. Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was a pretty interesting approach on on that. Podcast Host 33:36 Yeah, well, I I completely agree that students who pick a career, when they're like 15, or 16, I'm always thinking like, are you picking that career? Because you really want that curry? Or is that a suggestion from your parents? Or is it just kind of like, you know, I feel like a lot of students say that, to put themselves at ease to kind of lessen their internal stress that they don't, you know, because that is, I guess, still that firepower around not knowing what you want to do. And people are like, I would rather be externally viewed as someone who is aware and knowing what they want to do, rather than someone who does. And, you know, internally, they might be still saying, I have no idea what I want to do. But externally, they'll say, I'm going to be in financial medicine and this and everyone's like, oh, wow, they really know what they want to do. And no one questions it. No, one question. Yeah. Wow, that's so inspiring. Yeah, yeah, you've got your life sorted. Well, congratulations. And then they can kind of like, go to the back of the class and not get questioned anymore. Whereas like, if you don't know what you want to do, people are like, Oh, so what are you interested in? And they asked, like, 1000 questions, right? And you're like, hey, let's back off. I'm figuring it out as we go. Right? Definitely. But I think I think students really need to look at an embracing that uncertainty a little bit more and be more open to it because, like, Who knew that there was a right As a full time podcaster. But guess what? That's what I'm doing. Yeah. And it can, it can happen. So like, I would never have thought that I'll be doing full time podcasting, and they go, so, yeah, it's something that I think you should just be okay with in going forward that Yeah, you're not too sure what you're going to do just yet. Any kind of words of advice or wisdom that you would like to impart upon our lovely listeners from around the world? Angelina 35:25 Well, first off, I want to say thank you for listening. And yeah, I just want to say, I guess, you know, believe in yourself. That's one of the biggest things that I see all the time is like, self doubt that so many students have, and I have as well. So yeah, believe in yourself, do what you want. Also, like, don't take shame in sometimes, you know, hanging out with your friends, and just having a good time, because I think that's so incredibly important, as well as obviously, you know, activism and extracurriculars in school is also to just balance it out with with having a good time as well. And, yeah, yeah, enjoy 36:00 life. Podcast Host 36:00 Enjoy life. Yeah, I think if you're got that goal every single day, when you wake up to believe in yourself and enjoy life, then you're certainly on the right track. Well, it's been awesome having you on the show, Angela? Like it's, it's great to meet a fellow podcaster and chat about all things. Yeah, with inclusivity, which I think is a really interesting topic and something that, you know, hopefully our listeners get in touch with you. Speaking of which, what would be the best way to get in contact with you that we can live in the shownotes? Angelina 36:28 Yes, probably my Instagram account. Podcast Host 36:32 You can flick it to me. I'll put it in the show notes. Alright, people to get pen and paper out and ride it. Angelina 36:36 Yeah. Okay. Cuz I thought that was Yeah, yeah. No, every time I hear people say I never like actually write it down and think about it. So Podcast Host 36:44 yeah, now you've done the right thing. It will just put it in the show notes. So yeah, people can get in contact, ask questions about the podcasts and we'll put the podcast link in the show notes as well. And hopefully they can have a listen to some of your episodes and get a you know, a wide variety of different perspectives. But thank you so much again for joining us and look forward to sharing this episode far and wide as I said, three hours of promotion to every one hour of podcast recording. So I look forward to sharing it as much as far as I possibly can. 37:14 Thank you. Podcast Host 37:16 Thanks for listening to Top of the Class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

Ep #29 Publishing a Book and Teaching Epidemiology to Fight COVID

🗓 JAN 23, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And today I chat with Texas student Stephanie Wang. Stephanie has been fighting COVID-19 in unique ways by writing and self publishing a book, teaching hundreds of students about public health, and creating lesson plans for biology students that her school will start teaching soon. She gives fantastic advice for aspiring authors, and invite you the listener to contact her about getting the public health curriculum taught in your school. Let's chat with Stephanie Wang. Hi Stephanie, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Stephanie Wang 00:56 Well, hi, Alex. First of all, thank you for so much for having me. My name is Stephanie. I'm currently 16 years old. And I'm a junior from Texas. And I really am involved in helping improve educational access across communities and doing that in whatever shape that may be. And I recently wrote and published an introductory epidemiology textbook called epidemiology unmasked. And the purpose of this textbook was to help spread public health literacy to students across my community and even beyond that, during the pandemic, because we all know that during the pandemic, we all face difficulties, and some face difficulties and informational access. So that was my main goal in writing the textbook. Podcast Host 01:40 That's awesome that you have come up with a book in response to the Coronavirus because obviously, like the education side of things has been a real struggle. Obviously, there's a lot of people who have skepticism about it, who don't really know how things like this kind of spread. And you have developed a very strong interest in epidemiology. Can you take me through that and how that kind of started and then how that perhaps accelerated through the Coronavirus? Stephanie Wang 02:06 Definitely. So I am a member of my school Science Olympiad team and I have been competing in Science Olympiad for about this would be my fifth year. And I started when I was in seventh grade, in seventh grade, I went to my middle school had a very, very good Science Olympiad team. And I at first joined because I wanted to know what it was all about. I didn't really have very strong aspirations. But once I started actually getting engaged in tournaments and exploring different events, I came across one event that really, really helped me a lot in defining my passions and what I wanted to do so that event was called disease detectives, and disease detectives is essentially an event focused on public health and epidemiology. And for the actual aspect of the event, participants basically follow through an outbreak investigation and solve it throughout the entire process. And beyond the outbreak investigation, the testimony also test concepts, you know, like microbiology, disease spread, things like that. And that was pretty much how I really got into this field. And from that event, I learned so much about epidemiology, which is a field of science that I would not have otherwise learned in school, and I probably would not have otherwise even known or really explore deeply if it wasn't for that event. From then on, I began pursuing projects that were outside of the scope of Science Olympiad, but really helped to augment my experience in epidemiology. And that included a research project that included talking to professors in the field. And so from there, I've been really alert to all sorts of public health developments in the world. And of course, the latest one would be the pandemic and pandemic has been pretty hard on the United States, especially in Texas as well. And so I realized, you know, there are some people who may not have had the same epidemiological education that I had through Science Olympiad, and they were the ones who are most vulnerable to being misinformed or taking things that may have been wrong and rolling with it, which can be detrimental to people and to the society as a whole. So that was something that I felt needed to be changed and targeted. And so from for doing that, that's how the idea of my book really came to fruition. Podcast Host 04:32 Yeah, that's fantastic. What kind of fallacies or misinformation Do you find that you are often correcting that people might have because they might not have much background in epidemiology and for those who don't know, epidemiology? It's a bit of a big word, I guess. It means the study of the spread of disease. Is that right? Stephanie Wang 04:53 Yeah, pretty much just the study of like how diseases spread in populations in ways that people can prevent and treat the population level. Podcast Host 05:02 I think it's become a very popular word, obviously, in 2020. It was everyone who was, you know, knew about Anthony falchi, the head epidemiologist in there in America. But yeah, what kind of misinformation or fallacies? Do you find yourself correcting? Or do you find yourself being most pervasive, I guess, within the Texas area that you will like that is just completely wrong? Stephanie Wang 05:24 Well, there is a wide variety. I think I read a statistic back in June, when I was doing research that over half of Americans have seen at least some form of misinformation online. And definitely that number must be a lot higher by now. Because that was back in June. And so some of the more common ones involve sort of conspiracies about the vaccine, or like questioning the effectiveness of various public health measures, such as math and social distancing. And although scientists often tell us to do that, it can cause people to question whether or not we should do it. And I think the best way for us to do to help each other and help sees the spread is to listen to the experts. And I think convincing people that it's important to listen to the experts and do these various precaution measures that I've been recommended. I think that's the most important sort of misinformation, or trying to combat that misinformation. That's the most important thing that I've been trying to do. Podcast Host 06:24 Yeah, and it's really exciting. I think that a student of your age and of your experience, like you're, you know, have an interest in epidemiology, but by no means do you have like a degree in epidemiology, but you still saw that there was an opportunity for you to make a very big difference in your community. And you started out with the book epidemiology on mast, which, by the way, I think is an awesome name. Can you take me through the writing of that book? And can you take me through, like how the idea even came about that a book would be a good idea to try and combat this misinformation, Stephanie Wang 06:55 of course. So obviously, there are a lot of different online resources and things like that. But I, what I realized through my time in studying epidemiology, as a middle school student in a high school student is that a lot of the text that is presented and a lot of the manuals or online resources, they can be hard to read or hard to understand for people, especially those who may not have a firm background in the subject or anything related to the subject, which is most of the population. And so I decided, you know, since I, I recently had to overcome learning this, and making sure I understand everything, I believe I have the ability to make all of this complicated stuff into something that would be simple and fun. So that's why I decided that I was going to write a book. And it was going to be a book that was not another repeat of all the other epidemiology textbooks on there, or the manuals online. Instead, I really wanted it to be something that would be fun to read. And something that would be easy to read, something that maybe even a child or a kid would voluntarily pick up and read. Because I think that's the best way for students to learn is to be happy and be very eager to do it. I know that most students will not be interested in just reading a textbook. So for my textbook, I went through an entire hypothetical outbreak investigation that I made. And it was supposed to be a book where the reader steps into the shoes of an epidemiologist understanding and going over and tackling the outbreak. And so along each of these steps, I presented them with the adequate information necessary to understand what each part of the outbreak investigation is, and understand important epidemiological concepts along the way. So that's basically how I structured the book. And as for writing, I knew I didn't want it to be, you know, very textfield, since that would sort of discourage students. So instead, I actually designed it on a graphic design pretty much the entire book, I designed on a graphic design tool, all 117 pages, and after that, it was able to make the book a lot more aesthetic, and make made people actually want to, you know, look at it, and especially younger students, that would definitely help them. Podcast Host 09:10 Wow, 117 pages, I didn't know it was that long. And so you throughout that 117 pages, take students through this whole investigation of a hypothetical disease, and then how they might be able to combat it. So it's kind of like you're putting them in the shoes of the scientists who are discovering and combating the disease. Is that right? Stephanie Wang 09:31 Yes, that's correct. And I did that because I feel a lot that students learn best when they're doing things and not just reading facts, because in school, I definitely enjoyed the more project based activities more than a lot of my friends do as well. So I feel that encompassing this subject as a project based or a problem based activity almost would be more fun for students to read. And that's the bulk of my book. I also have my last chapter that's dedicated on just basic information. About COVID, and things that have already occurred, and helping to inform the readers just about the main things that they need to know about the pandemic. So they can establish a baseline to look at all the other facts that they're presented to them, and evaluate whether they believe it should be credible or not. Because I think we all should have like a baseline to evaluate. And I, that's my goal with the last chapter of my book. Podcast Host 10:24 Wow, that's fantastic. And I love this whole kind of writing a book journey that you must have gone on. And I'd love to explore that with you a little bit more. Because I think the idea of actually, funnily enough, I'm thinking of writing a book. And I think the hardest thing when you're considering that is knowing how do I start? How do I structure? What is this book going to look like when I finally finish? And then you know, how am I going to get it published? And how am I going to get it seen? And all these kinds of things, and all these questions that come up along the way? So can you take us back? I guess, however long ago, the idea of the book came about, and then take us through your journey of how did you decide upon the structure? How did you decide upon the length was the length that you ended up having the book at 117 pages? Was that roughly what you thought it would be at the start some of those kind of questions that you probably tackled along the way through writing and publishing the book? Stephanie Wang 11:18 Yeah, of course. So what I did was, I had the idea in around March, that time when the pandemic was first really starting to get serious in Texas and in the country. And so one night, I just jotted down every single topic I wanted to cover, in my book, this range from, you know, basic reproduction number to disease transmission to micro organisms, all of the things I wanted to cover, and then I sorted them in main blocks that I wanted to cover in one chapter, for instance. And I, you know, thought about how I wanted to structure it, should I just write everything, should I just tell people the information, but then I realized, you know, it would be much better if I formatted this in sort of a structure of a disease detective test, and allow the reader to go along the entire journey and learn things along the way. So that was basically how I structured the book. And I definitely did not think it would be 117 pages, I remember starting it and thinking it would be 50, at most, but there was just so much that I wanted to include and so much that I wanted to elaborate on that it ended up being much longer than I originally anticipated. And I also did not originally plan to put the last chapter in the COVID chapter. But then, you know, I thought, well, the main reason why I'm writing this book is to help prevent misinformation and foster responsibility during COVID. So it sort of be a missed opportunity, if I didn't include at least some information about COVID in there. So that was, after I pretty much wrote the whole book, I decided to add the last chapter. And after that, it did end up totaling around 117 pages. So for the publishing process, I explored different routes of publication, usually, there's traditional publishing where the author gets in contact with a publishing company. And then they pretty much do all the heavy lifting for you. But the sort of disadvantage of that was that it didn't really give the author much freedom to do what they wanted with the book. And also, it would take a very long time, the author would also not have as much royalties for their book. And so there was also the other common auction, which was self publishing your book. And for that, I actually felt that it would be more worth it to do self publishing, because even though I didn't really have a marketing, or like a company to do the marketing, for me, self publishing is very fast, you pretty much just upload it, and then you wait a few days, and then you're done. So I feel like time is a very important issue, especially in the pandemic. And I really wanted to get it out as soon as possible because the pandemic was already raging on. So that was the main reason why I decided to self publish. But there was also the other reason of royalties. And royalties are much higher in self publishing. And what I actually wanted to use the royalties as sort of a fundraiser for the people working on the front lines for COVID. So that was another main consideration. And so even though when I was exploring the traditional route, I was able to get in contact with a publisher, or I decided, you know, I don't think it was really worth it. In my circumstance, even though for other authors, oftentimes, traditional publishing is worth it. But for me, I felt that the advantages were sort of offset by the drawbacks. So I decided to go with self publishing. Podcast Host 14:37 Wow. Okay. So it's quite a journey you've gone on, what kind of resources were you using during that time to kind of figure out your journey through to publishing a book. Stephanie Wang 14:45 No one in my family really has done anything like of this sort. So I wasn't really able to ask them much for this publishing advice, help. And as for the whole publishing process, I essentially just did a lot of online research and I've just a lot of googling a lot of websites that I browse. But for that part, not really. But for the actual review of the book and making sure everything was credible, I actually contacted a few professionals from the Texas Medical Center, which is located here in Houston. And I was able to get in contact with a few professors, including the director of infection control, MD Anderson, which is the largest Cancer Center in the world, I believe. So he definitely was such a huge help, he helped me look over everything. And then he made sure everything was correct in there. And then he suggested a few revisions here and there about you know, braising and there was also one of my previous professors that I worked with in the past, he also offered to review my book and look over all the information and make sure everything was correct. And so they were also able to offer me editorial reviews. And that definitely helped because it definitely helped to boost the credibility that my book had. And those were my main sort of advisors. Yeah, I also got my brother to read the book. He's currently 11. And he is sort of in the target audience a little bit younger, maybe, but around that range. And he helped me read over and see what parts of the book he couldn't understand. And so I wanted to figure out, you know, how can I word this a little bit differently, to make it understandable for everyone, especially kids who are younger, so those were my main advisors. Podcast Host 16:28 Fantastic. And in terms of the professor's I think that's super cool, and definitely adds legitimacy to your work? How did you go about getting in contact with them? And then like, how did you go about saying, hey, look, I've written this book, it's 117 pages, would you mind reviewing it? I'm imagining these are pretty busy people, particularly at this time with the Yeah, demick raging? So how did you manage to kind of convince them to take a fair chunk of time out of their day, to review your book and to, you know, make notes and really help you out through this journey. Stephanie Wang 16:59 So one of the professors, he has a friend who is friends with, it's like a chain, you know, it's like a chain of connections, but I sort of knew him from my parents and their connections. So I emailed him, and then he definitely was busy. But he was kind enough to spend some time a few hours, it wasn't too long for him, because he's an expert in this stuff. So he helped me just look over it. He didn't nitpick, but he just made sure everything was correct. And just offered some advice on where to fix a little bit. But I would say he was my main reviewer. And then my other reviewer. I knew him previously, because he had been my mentor for previous research. So he definitely was very willing to do that. And yeah, since I knew him previously, that helped get him on board. Podcast Host 17:48 Yeah, well, that's the the power of networking. Right. And I think that's a really big tip. Yeah, it's who, you know, thinking of creating some research and those kinds of things is to if you can contact professors, because it just adds that legitimacy. And I think a lot of professors would probably be quite excited to know that there is a student someone in their teen years, someone who's still in high school, who is keen to make a difference, and it was really interested in their area of expertise. Did you find that as well, that, you know, there was a professor being like, oh, wow, this is like a great initiative by a high school student. Stephanie Wang 18:20 Oh, yeah, definitely. Both of the people and some other ones that I contacted. They were all very, very excited. They definitely were very encouraging. And were very supportive, gave some very kind words and some very good advice. So yeah, for students out there, I think, if you have an initiative, I don't think you should be scared to contact adults who are experts in the field, because I think most of the time, they will be very receptive and very happy to help in any way. Podcast Host 18:47 Okay, yeah. No, that's fantastic advice. I'm interested as well, in the cost side of things. And I don't need exact numbers here. But I think it's an interesting question, because self publishing, to me sounds like a potentially expensive thing to do. And I know that you wanted to do that because you wanted to get the royalties and then donate that royalties, as you said, to the frontline, COVID workers, which I think is a fantastic initiative and kind of like, brings it full circle, which I think is awesome. But there must have been a bit of debate in your mind about whether to publish it as an E book, which obviously is, I think, would be lower cost versus an actual book. So can you talk us through a those kind of practical sides of things in terms of the cost factor? And what made you really want to go down the publishing route as opposed to an E book? Stephanie Wang 19:31 Sure. So it may be sort of surprising to people but self publishing is actually quite cheap. I never actually had to pay anyone to do anything. For me. I think the main expense for publishing a book is the actual printing. So for example, the website that I publish it on, I actually have it on Amazon and on Lulu, but my original publishing site was on Lulu press, and their publishing is actually quite cheap. Their printing is also quite cheap and For the actual uploading the self publishing part, that part doesn't cost any money. But the actual printing for my book, I believe that costs around $7 or so I can't remember exactly. But it's not too expensive. And so they also give you like a base amount that it has to be over, your cost has to be greater than that to account for the royalties and the publishing and my book currently on lose about $9. So isn't really too expensive. So yeah, I don't think the money is a very big issue in self publishing. However, in traditional publishing, it definitely does cost more money. Because when I was originally getting in contact with that traditional publishing company, they definitely had a lot more cost it was in the hundreds. So that was also another factor why I didn't want to do that. But that being said, the self publishing royalties, I believe, they really do pay off because I have been able to get enough money from the royalties to buy 1000 masks for the frontline health workers. So that definitely was a very rewarding experience for me, just to see that sort of work pay off in the form of monetary donation to the frontline health workers. Podcast Host 21:11 That's fantastic. I'm really glad to hear that. But it's actually your idea is being carried through and now you're seeing the results of, you know, helping the frontline workers get through this very difficult time. So that's fantastic, Stephanie. Now I want to kind of shift gears a little bit towards how you got that book into libraries, because that's obviously like, you know, people can publish a book. But getting it seen and getting it actually, in legitimate places, is a whole new task altogether. And I think a lot of students might say, well, if I'm going to get my book out there, I might have to just hit up social media pretty hard. But you actually said, Okay, if I'm going to get my book out there, then I need to get it in places where people might see it in in legitimate libraries is a great place to start. So can you give us a bit of an insight as to where people might be able to find your book, if not online, and how you got into those libraries? Stephanie Wang 22:01 Sure. So my book is available in the Fort Bend county libraries, which is the county where I live. And for this process, I basically just called the one of the administrators of the entire Fort Bend County Library System. And she is responsible for dealing with like incoming literature. And she had to look over all my books. And also they have a requirement where the book has to be has to have like at least one reliable review, whether that be on the media, or via like a professional. And so before doing that, I also got a lot of press coverage for the books so that it could get the word out there. And so having already established this credibility, it was a lot easier for the library to see my book and realize that it was credible. And so it took a few days for them to review it and look over it and make sure everything was good quality. And then they basically just cataloged it inside their library systems. And so this way, readers from Fort Bend county libraries can just go online, into their Fort Bend County Library database, and just search my book and place it in hold or, you know, go to the actual libraries and check them out. everything like that is possible now that it's in the library. Podcast Host 23:18 What's been the the proudest moment for you so far through that journey? Was it getting tick of approval from the professor The first time you held the book in your hand, getting it into the library? Like there's a lot of moments that you can be really proud of throughout this journey? What do you think has been the most kind of aha moment for you where you were like, Stephanie Wang 23:37 I've done it. Beyond just writing the book, I decided, you know, I have to do more than that I have to make a class or some sort of teaching project where I can actually get this book into the hands of students and teach them the material in sort of a live fashion. And so what I did was I actually held a class with my nonprofit kid teach kid. And we actually got around 1000, something signups for the class. And so I basically for the entirety of the class, I taught them, the outbreak investigation, went through each step with them, and went through the curriculum step by step in more detail. And from that, at the end of the class, at the very last session, I asked them to brainstorm ideas of projects that they could potentially pursue that would help their community during COVID. And so these kids are very, very talented and very creative. And so they started rolling in a bunch of cool creative ideas. Some of them ranged from creating coding classes for their friends. Some of them range to creating informational YouTube videos to help people understand everything better. And so I think seeing these kids have such great ideas on how to help the community and being that my ideas were able to help fuel their passions. I think that was definitely the proudest moment. For me throughout this entire process, Podcast Host 25:02 so that's your nonprofit kid tasty? Stephanie Wang 25:04 Yes, it's a very, very similar process to how I decided to write the book, I have a few friends that I have been doing a lot of math contests with for the past few years. And since the pandemic started, we realized that most of the classes were going to be over for the kids, especially at the end person ones. And so we decided to start this nonprofit originally to help teach kids math. And after that, it was a pretty big success. So then, we recruited other students, our other friends to help teach other subjects. And so that's how we started this nonprofit. And that's also how I was able to do my public health class as well. Podcast Host 25:40 Wow, that's fantastic. So you really kind of made a lot of inroads in this COVID situation, I think it's fantastic. Because a lot of students were probably feeling a little bit helpless, and probably felt like they had a lot of time on their hands. But obviously, like you use your knowledge, and we know we can in epidemiology, and your love of teaching, to turn that into a many different ways to get the information out there. And one of those ways, which we're going to discuss now is a curriculum change. Now, I know that a lot of students would think that this idea is way out of their realm, that curriculum is decided much higher above them. But it's something that you've been able to do over the last couple of months in terms of suggesting it to your teachers. And it sounds like it's coming to fruition now in March, April. I know there's a lot of students out there who would wish to be able to change the curriculum in some way, shape, or form. And you've actually gone ahead and made that happen. So can you take us through that and what made you want to decide to change the curriculum. Stephanie Wang 26:42 So I of course, was motivated by the misinformation and irresponsibility, the same forces that motivated me to write the book. And you can do as much as you want through activism or educational advocacy, things like that, especially in book writing, and everything, everything that I have been pursuing so far. But I believe the most fundamental way to change the problems that we've been seeing is to conquer the educational insufficiencies from the root. And I think the root of that is the school system. And I know that in my school system, at least, we never really learned much about public health or epidemiology, which was also another big reason why I decided to write the book. But that being said, I felt that it would be possible for me to suggest to teachers to teach this instead into maybe even give it just a few days of class material, just for students who would be interested to be exposed to this sort of curriculum and for them to understand the basics of disease spreads so that in the future, when we may have another pandemic, these students who are in my generation, who will be the adults by then will be very responsible and more receptive, and more immune to misinformation. So that was how I got the idea. And I basically curated a custom curriculum with several PowerPoints, homework, activities, projects, and you know, just handouts, notes, sheets, things like that. And basically, it covers the entire book, but in that sort of form, and like classwork form, and it also does the same thing, it goes over the same outbreak uses the same calculations. And so I compiled them all together, and I approached my biology teacher, and she helped me look over everything, make sure it would be something that teachers would be receptive to. And so then I reached out to my school's freshman biology teachers, because in my school, the biology classes mostly occur in freshman year in junior or senior year. So I wanted to start with the freshmen students, because that's when most students take biology. So for them, I reached out to them, and they definitely will, one of them was very receptive to that. And currently, we're working out the details, but I think it should be able to come into fruition as in they may have like, a few days in a period of time after standardized testing for them to teach the material and do the activity with their students. And so this way, the students in their classes during this time, have a way to be exposed to public health and Epidemiology often for the first time. And I think it definitely sounds more scary than it is. But I think the most important thing to do is is to talk to people who are close to you first, for example, your teachers, and then maybe expand it further because if I am able to successfully get this to work very well in the schools in my school, then I have aspirations to expand it across the district. And in doing that we can just help combat this issue from the start so that we don't have to deal with it as much in the future. Podcast Host 29:51 I think this is fantastic. And and I think, you know in terms of addressing the root cause of the problem, as you said, like the going back to what is taught in schools seeing if we can kind of get in there early with the right ideas and the right information, particularly for something like, you know, that's so important, like public health, because I think the Coronavirus would agree that the the reason that it's been able to spread so much is because a lot of people just don't understand the science or have been fed misinformation and believe the misinformation more than the experts. So I think, you know, getting that into the school curriculum is a really good thing. But one of the things I'm interested in is, did you create the entire curriculum, the handouts, the slides, and all that kind of thing? And then took it to your biology teacher? Or did you mention to them be like, Hey, I think, you know, we might be able to come up with a few days worth of classes on public health? Can I work on something and then show it to you? Because I think a lot of times, one of the things that's missing, potentially, if students have tried to change the curriculum before, is they just haven't presented enough quality work, and they haven't presented enough quality information that the teachers can look at and say, Yep, I can turn this into a class No problem, right? Like, you got to make it easy for the teachers to say, yes, this would work in a classroom setting, which is what you know, which is what you did really well. And now your school is on board. So it kind of makes sense. But did you go through all that process first? Or did your teacher say, hey, Stephanie, if we're going to do this kind of thing, we're going to need a lot more information before we even consider it. Stephanie Wang 31:24 So I originally had a sort of pseudo curriculum already, because I have been teaching that public health class for kids each kid over the summer. And I didn't create the entire full blown worksheet curriculum yet, for my potential school curriculum. I first approached my biology teacher and told her about my idea. And she told me basically the necessary things that I have to have in order for teachers to consider it, such as all the lesson plans, the PowerPoints, and the structure that would be the most helpful for teachers. And so after having that information, I was able to sort of tweaked my original curriculum and fit than necessary or fit the necessities that she talked about. And that was how we got it to work. Podcast Host 32:14 Yeah, I think that's super important for students to realize what kind of landmarks or what kind of points the teachers are trying to teach, because they've got their set curriculum that they're trying to teach to. And if you can create a curriculum that fits in with that, or that makes sense with that, or that complements what the biology teacher or what any teacher is really trying to teach, then there is a lot higher chance of your changes being adopted, or at least being considered. So it has that journey been for you kind of like writing all these lesson plans, and you know, really going to work and creating like a full in a couple of day curriculum on epidemiology. Stephanie Wang 32:55 It's actually been quite fun, because, believe it or not, it's very, very fun to create things that I feel like are would be helpful to students. And I would say, for students who are interested in sort of, you know, changing their curriculum, or find this public health idea to be good, a good idea to implement into their school system, they can always, you know, contact me, and we can actually I can send them all the stuff, and then they can see if it'll, their, their teachers would be receptive to the idea. But I would say in general, the, the journey has actually been very fun, I would say, writing the book, though, there was there were some challenges, because I think the main challenge with writing the book was the part where I had to tell the whole part where I have to change this difficult thoughts, or this difficult concepts and difficult trains of thought into something that young students would be interested in when loved to read. And so that was something that was difficult because I had never really, when I was learning, I had never really learned with the intention of trying to regurgitate it as a fun learning resource. And so that was difficult. But again, my brother was willing to help me out with that just to help me look over which parts he was not able to understand. And so that was very, very helpful for me throughout that process. But I think, yeah, that was the main difficulty. But other than that, I would say it's been a very, very rewarding process. Podcast Host 34:25 Yeah, well, I hope it does get taught and and is a success. And obviously, like, there might be tweaks and changes that you might need to make. And it might take a little bit of time for it to be refined. But I think it's something that you can be really proud of that this is potentially the start of a very long lasting change, which is extremely exciting. And I think that's it for students out there who thought that they might not be able to change their curriculum that the curriculum is something decided by people who are much more senior and have been in education for 2030 years. That's not always the case. And you know, you can look at Stephanie's example. And of course, definitely, you've said that students can contact you to get the resources that you've created already. And we'll put that link in the show notes. So if you want to contact Stephanie and get those resources, I would 100% recommend that because I think that's like, even from my interest, Stephanie, I'd love to say it, just so I can learn a little bit about epidemiology, but also see the potential of how this could become, you know, part of a school curriculum elsewhere around the world, because it's obviously something that you know, many students are aware of, because of everything that's been going on with COVID. So it's something that I'm sure students will be pretty keen to learn about. But anyway, what's next? For us? Definitely, you've been doing a whole hate during this COVID situation, probably more than a lot of students would think would be possible during this lockdown period. But what's next for you in 2021? Stephanie Wang 35:47 Well, I think 2021 Well, I hope it would be more, it would be better for everyone. And I think 2021 is going to be a year where I really tried to get this stuff as far as I can. And that's why I'm also encouraging students from other states, other regions to contact me and we can try to get this into your state as well. So I think this year is going to be me focusing most on amplifying the impact of public health literacy and public health education. And just continuing on the work that I've been doing in 2020. And pushing it even more. And I think in the future, I would like to see, most of the districts in my state or even most of the schools in my state adopt a similar lesson plan adopted a similar curriculum that they would be using for their students, because I think if there's anything that we learned from this pandemic, is that anything can happen at any time. And we should all work to be well prepared for future incidents like this, and be well prepared to prevent the detriments that we've seen this time around. And so I think, for me, my work would be just to help spread the message more help get more students interested in public health, whether that be in teaching classes, or hosting workshops, or speaking on podcasts like this one, and helping to spread the message to today's youth into adults who are also willing to help with the spreading of the message. Podcast Host 37:18 Yeah, and hopefully the message can be spread faster than any virus, that's for sure. And, yeah, and in terms of college, because obviously Crimson education support students to get into world leading universities, I just saw the Oxford acceptances came out. And we've got a lot of students from Crimson who are heading there, which is very exciting. But what would be your kind of goal in terms of getting into colleges around there in the US, obviously, there's some fantastic universities in Texas. But is there anything in particular that you're looking at? Stephanie Wang 37:48 Yeah, I think my dream school just from when I was perhaps in middle school was always MIT because it's very stem focused school. And I've been on that campus many, many times throughout the past few years for competitions. And especially last year, I went there for a Science Olympiad competition, it was a beautiful campus, and they just seemed like such a great community. I think that's probably the school that I most want to get into. Of course, I would apply to a lot of there are a lot of great in state schools in Texas, like rice, and UT. But beyond that, I think, I haven't really given much too much thought into college yet, even though I should be probably since I'm applying this year. And yeah, I think we'll see. Because I really hope MIT is a place that I get into. Well, yeah, I Podcast Host 38:37 know that that is super competitive MIT. So for those of you I know that you might be a fan of Marvel cinema. I know Tony Stark, I think was a student there or has connections there. And Spider Man as well. Peter Parker, that's when I whenever I'm trying to describe MIT to students here in Australia, and they'll be like, Oh, you just sounds like a stem University. I'm like, Yeah, it's a stem University. But like, this is the kind of university that Peter Parker and Tony Stark go to right like it is. Next Level kind of STEM. So yeah, surprise, right. Yeah, it's a fantastic campus VIII visited there in January of 2020. As well, they are unabashedly nerdy. I think that's what the tour guide says. We are 100% nerds. And we are very much like believe that that's who we are and who we want to be. And I think it's like a really cool culture. We actually had the student body president of MIT on a previous episode, Danielle? Yeah. Give that a listen. Because she shared her insights into what life is like their at MIT. Stephanie Wang 39:37 And MIT snowed as well. And it never really snows knows where I live. So that would be great to see. Podcast Host 39:43 Well, I did ask Danielle, what is the coldest she's ever been? Because she was originally from Florida. And she said they stayed in the research labs for too long and it was quite a long walk to their dorms. And she said like it was an absolute blizzard outside and she said, that's the She's ever been. So if you like the snow, it might be a novelty factor there for the first year or so. But I think it might quickly wear off. I think that's what I've generally heard is that it's exciting for the first time and then not so exciting thereafter. But I'm sure it'd be an amazing experience to be among all those amazing students and right next to Harvard as well. So for people who don't know where MIT is, it's literally like one bus stop away from the grounds of Harvard. So you'll meet a lot of lovely, very, very clever people up there in Boston, which is fantastic. Now, Stephanie, you did say that people who contact you, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you? Stephanie Wang 40:36 I would say email would be the best because I check my email very often. And yeah, it's Stephanie.wang2004@gmail.com. And of course, you can just link it in the description as well. Podcast Host 40:47 I will put it in there for sure. Well, Stephanie, it's been awesome chatting, I think it's super inspiring for students who are interested in writing books, are we interested in making a change during COVID, who are interested in making a change in their curriculum, I do hope students who are interested in biology, particularly take you up on that fact to get the resources that you would make available. I think we won't leave that in the description because I think it's probably the right thing to do for people to actually contact you about that. So yeah, I would recommend students do that. And hopefully we can get this these messages and your book and your classroom, lesson plans, etc. and we can get that far and wide around the world, which would be fantastic. Stephanie Wang 41:27 Thank you so much, Alex. Thank you. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much again.

Ep #28 The 12-Year-Old Studying Aerospace Engineering at a Top US College

🗓 JAN 20, 2021

See transcript

Jamie Beaton 00:00 Welcome to the Top of the Class. I'm really excited today to be here with Caleb, Caleb is making headlines all around the world for his incredible academic ability. Alrighty, let's get started, Caleb. So to begin with, why don't you bring me back to your younger days? So, um, what were some things that were quite unique about your upbringing compared to you know, your average student? Caleb Anderson 01:06 I really think that, you know, my mom drove to teach me younger than a lot of other kids. I really think that, you know, she, she tried to teach me at a really early age. And I think that's one of the things that really brought me to where I am. Jamie Beaton 01:21 Yeah, I think that's a really consistent trait that I see in many high achieving young people that parents are really heavily involved early in their education. And was there a particular subject that you guys did a lot of teaching together? And she's like, math or something? Or was it across all the subjects? What was the focus area? Caleb Anderson 01:38 It was really all subjects. But I think that, you know, she really started with reading because, you know, that really helped us to communicate with each other. And then, you know, she went on to science, math, history and things like that. Jamie Beaton 01:52 Why don't you give everybody a bit of an update as to what you're up to now? So I was recently watching an interview did with CBS, where you, I think, just been admitted to Georgia Tech. So what does the world look like for you today? How your studies, you know, where are you at in those various programs? Caleb Anderson 02:08 Yeah, I did just get admitted to Georgia Tech, you know, I'm going there and fall 2021. But I think right now, I'm just trying to manage all my classes, especially during COVID, I take my first all science classes, um, this semester, so I have labs and things like that. And a lot of my classes are a bit late at night. And we have to wear masks when we walk in. So I think that's really you know, what everything looks like for me. But I think you know, that I can do this. And you know, even though it's a bit awkward, I think I can manage. Jamie Beaton 02:38 I'm very confident you can, I'm actually calling you today from New Zealand, which is one of the few places in the world that's currently quite COVID, free, as our Prime Minister has done quite a good job of locking down the borders. And we're quite a remote island. But I do miss the us quite a bit. I was there in both Boston and California for college and Business School. And I do miss it quite a bit. Now, if you think about your your academic journey and your age, what years would you say you had the kind of peak acceleration in terms of years of content you got through, you know, for a given year level. So for example, maybe from age into 11, you got through three years of high school content or something like this. So where would you say your fastest acceleration was? Caleb Anderson 03:20 Really thing is beginning in the end, you know, when I started college, I think that's, you know, I'm one of my periods of acceleration, you know, one of the greatest because college semesters cause one high school, you know, on full year, so, I'm doing High School, you know, I'm twice as fast. So I'm already you know, in my senior year, with this goal enrollment program, I'm doing high school and college at the same time. So, you know, I'm, if I'm doing full time I call it I'm doing High School twice as fast. And, you know, the early years, babies, you know, they make 3 million, I think it was 3 million neural neural connections a minute, um, you know, until there's the age of three, I really think that on my mom's, you know, saw this and she also saw, you know, my extreme, you know, aptitude for intellect. So, I think she, you know, I'm fed that an early age, and, you know, I was doing communication in fractions, you know, when I was two, so, um, you know, that's third grade things for that's for people, you know, four times my age. So that is another period, you know, when I was learning the quickest. Jamie Beaton 04:20 Okay, that makes a lot of sense. One kind of piece of my, I guess, academic philosophy that I really believed in is this idea of competency learning where you move based on your ability, you know, not your age. So, you know, I think to students like Tristan Pang, who was a student of mine a little while ago, who finished high school when he was 13, and then finished his first degree when he was 16. And now he's in Oxford doing his PhD when he's 17. And when I spoke to him, one of the key breakthrough insights he had was really, in school, if you just move at the pace, you'll teach the teaching you, you know, you're just going to be very arbitrarily constrained. But you know, he just chose to go super deep and math and just You know, keep digging and digging and digging and taking more and more advanced coursework. What's your view on competency learning? Do you think that there are many students who could systematically accelerate a little bit? Or do you think that this is, you know, this is something that is highly anomalous, and actually can't easily be replicated around the world. Caleb Anderson 05:20 I think that, you know, everybody has the aptitude to do this. But you know, I really think that, you know, that that one class that, you know, you're, it's really boring to you, and, you know, you don't feel like they were learning anything in that class, I think that's the class that, you know, you should be accelerated, and, you know, um, our modern, you know, our system, the whole path doesn't move on into the last student understands the subject. And, you know, there might be classes where you're bad at, and, you know, there might be classes where you're extremely good at, and, you know, there might be classes, we're just average out. And, you know, I think a good kind of learning would be accelerating at your own pace, you know, being slower at some classes and faster at other classes, you know, um, I have a friend, he goes to a hybrid homeschool, and, you know, he's doing sixth grade math, but he's doing 12th grade history, and things like that. And, you know, I think that, you know, that's a really good philosophy, you know, for the classroom. And I think it's a really good philosophy overall. Jamie Beaton 06:19 Yeah, I totally agree. Because I think, you know, people do have different expertise levels in various subjects. And so it's very arbitrary that you would go through all your subjects at the same speed. I totally agree. I also think there's like some subjects that are so content based, like, say biology or history and other subjects that require, you know, some really solid like quantitative reasoning, like math and physics. So your ability to process those two types of subjects can be quite different depending on what age you are, how did you find those more content based subjects, like the histories and the biologies compared to those subjects? like math, for example, where it's a lot more about calculations and quantitative reasoning? What was your strength initially? And how do you feel? Caleb Anderson 07:01 I'm definitely stronger, and you know, I'm verbal academics or academia, um, you know, I'm gonna history I know, I read extremely fast, I read a 12th grade level, I've been reading on 12th grade level, actually, for quite a while. And, you know, I really think that, you know, those are my strong suits. I'm not really too good at math, and I've never been good at math, but I still count on my fingers every once in a while. Um, so no, I don't think math is my strong sheet. But once you start doing it, and, you know, once you get to the fun parts of math, I think, you know, I am accelerating know, in my math, you know, I don't, I don't have to think as long for the know, the short calculations. And I really think that, you know, I'm becoming, you know, my grade level in that. Jamie Beaton 07:46 Now, I read the, you're interested in a lot of different career pathways, one being space, space exploration, aeronautical engineering, etc. And the second being law. And this is very close to home, as in my undergrad degree at Harvard, I did applied math, and that was quite an engineering focused topic, and then recently, actually began at law school. And so I have seen both of these worlds quite closely. And I'm very curious to hear from you, you know, what attracts you to these two different schools of thought? And where do you see your future life? Caleb Anderson 08:17 Well, I think the reason, you know, I'm really attracted to science and things like that, you know, I math is because, you know, it's harder for me, it's more of a challenge for me, you know, I think that it's not something that I would necessarily excel at, but you know, it's something that, you know, I'm gonna have to work for, I'm gonna have to, you know, strive to complete. And, you know, I, I like challenges. So, you know, I think, and I've always been fascinated with space anyways. So, you know, I don't want to have some easy, you know, some easy goal, you know, I want to push myself, and I think, the law, I think, you know, again, I I'm better at, you know, verbal things. So, I'm reading, talking, debating, things like that. So I think that, you know, if anything happens to, you know, my dream of helping people get up to space, you know, I think that I do have a fallback plan, something that, you know, I'm good at, and, you know, I'm, you know, I can make money, and you know, I can support myself until you know, I can get back up again. Jamie Beaton 09:12 One of our alumni actually a boy called Zong he was from New Zealand, actually. Then he went to Caltech. And now he's working for Tesla, which is quite cool, which I guess is one step removed from SpaceX. But, you know, these are really exciting companies that are attracting lots of young talent, what particular excites you about companies like SpaceX? Caleb Anderson 09:34 I think the difference between NASA and SpaceX is SpaceX is doing things that haven't been done before. And NASA is sticking to the formula that they already know, and trying to, you know, make it better. And I honestly think both of those things are good, you know, pushing, you know, the boundaries of reality, pushing the boundaries of, you know, the impossible and the impossible. You know, I think that's really important, but you know, playing it safe And trying to, you know, having a sort of primitive technology, trying to make it better, you know, trying to evolve it, I think that's, you know, and also a really good thing that you can do to, you know, I guess change humanity for the better. And people have to push the boundaries, say, the light bulb on Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla, or more Nikola Tesla, but he really had to, you know, push the boundaries, you know, say candles, you know, we don't use candles anymore. We're gonna use lights, this is better. But now we have, you know, these LED lights, we have these. We have these chandeliers. Now we have all enemies have all these kinds of, you know, lights, and, you know, they're all better than, you know, just a simple light bulb. And, you know, um, they're all more useful than just a simple white ball. I think that, you know, that really differentiates between what you know, companies like SpaceX, and what companies know, like NASA are doing. Jamie Beaton 10:53 I think watching this from afar, it does seem like basics has both the resourcing and the ambition to Yeah, push the boundaries, like you've said, and they've been able to attract many talented young people like yourself, you know, aspiring to go there who normally wouldn't enter the space sector, but you know, are entering it because of the level of innovation that we're seeing from Ilan and the team at SpaceX, which is, you know, quite powerful. The other thing is, it seems to be quite a phenomenon now that private space companies are driving innovation, whether it be, you know, Blue Origin from Jeff Bezos, or, you know, Musk's SpaceX, as opposed to the government organizations like NASA. So I think there hasn't been a time in human history before where private space entrepreneurs have driven so much of the innovation. What do you think is the role of the entrepreneur in the world? Do you think that government should be solving a lot of our big challenges? Or do you think that it should be folks like the Musk's of the world that go out there and try and deal with things like climate change and sustainability? Caleb Anderson 11:51 I really think people will, you know, like, Musk, you know, these people should start it. But I do think, you know, the government is going to be the one that ends it, you know, I think someone has to speak up, and, you know, tell people that, you know, this is a problem, or, you know, we have to do this. And, you know, I think, you know, people who step up like that, you know, people like Elon Musk, who are stepping up like that, you know, trying to, you know, change the world. You know, I think people like that, you know, are the people who are going to start these movements, but ultimately, you know, the government has more money, it has more, it has more power and more authority. And I think that, you know, if if, you know, the government says, hey, that's a good idea, let's try to uplift this, you know, it'll make the people feel better, we'll make the environment better in so you know, if they catch on to these ideas, and, you know, I really think that they're going to be the one, you know, I'm finishing off. Jamie Beaton 12:40 Yeah, I think that's very smart. In the case of, for example, here's where I know, they've received more than a billion in grants from the government to subsidize them on the basis of their, you know, renewable, sustainable efforts. So I think you're right, that the government does definitely enable some of these new technologies that might not be so cost effective. On a standalone basis, a lot of companies, a lot of countries, I should say, have been announcing his commitments to going to electric cars, when you're about 20. When you're about 25, what do you think the world is going to look like? You know, do you think there's going to be still a ton of kind of petrol cars in the road? Where do you think space travel will be? Give me some of your predictions? 10 years ahead. Caleb Anderson 13:21 10 years ahead, I really think that, you know, this decade, and you know, possibly even the next decade, someone will, you know, have gone to Mars, and you know, I'm really hoping for that. But you know, I don't think cars are gonna go away, they're cheaper, you know, then a little bit better for, you know, the economy, because, you know, there are a lot of these gas companies, and know, what are we going to do with all of these, you know, these 1000s of these millions of cars, that are, you know, are just sitting in people's backyards, you know, they're all gas, if we start making these electric cars cheaper, you know, people might start buying them, you know, the newer generation, and, you know, I don't think people you know, I don't really think cars will go away. But you know, I think the emission, you know, are going to, you know, slowly but surely, you know, I think they're gonna go down. Jamie Beaton 14:10 And I get some truly interesting speaking to a student as motivated as you What do you think motivates you? What, what gets you up every day to attend these classes at midnight? Or to, you know, get into college early? You know, where does the drive come from? And what keeps you going? Caleb Anderson 14:24 I think a lot of people are counting on me, you know, especially, you know, since, you know, the story broke and things like that, you know, a lot of people have their attention on me. I think that and, you know, a lot of my friends and a lot of my family, you know, they're looking at me, as well. So I think that's, you know, one of the things that motivates you, or me, and I think, you know, the other thing is, you know, it's fun, it's a little bit hard to explain, you know, I don't particularly you know, like like doing the work, but I do like learning and I think, you know, work is part of learning and you know, that's just a step that I have to take. And, you know, it is fun, you know, just learning new things, you know, having information, you know, in my brain that I can use, you know, help the world and know, I'm, everyone's gonna want to talk to my friends, you know, I think that, um, you know, just being able to learn, you know, being able to see, oh, this is how this works or, you know, this is how the world works, that's one of the things that really motivates me. Jamie Beaton 15:21 And that's the end, I guess, reflecting back on your journey, so far, it's, you know, gone quite incredibly, anything that you would go back and change, like, anything you wish you learned that you haven't learned yet, etc, or you feel like it's been pretty solid. Caleb Anderson 15:35 I think that, you know, there are a lot of paths that it could have taken that, you know, might have been easier. But no, I could have, um, you know, actually gone to college a year before. So, you know, I might have been in Georgia Tech now. So I think that's one of the things that, you know, I would have done, but, um, I didn't, you know, there are a lot, there are some schools that, you know, I didn't really I didn't like, and I really feel like I wasted some of my time there. So I think that, you know, I if, you know, going to, you know, a better more stem focused school, I think that, you know, would have been, you know, better spent time. Other than that, I don't really think there's a lot I could have changed, there's some stuff that you know, that I would have changed, but you know, it's outside of my control, like the pandemic. But, you know, other than that, you know, there's really nothing, I'm really glad you know, where I am. And, you know, it's not perfect, but, you know, it's the way life goes. And, you know, I personally like my wife, Jamie Beaton 16:32 yeah, no, it's, it's incredible. I think I'm reflecting back on my high school journey, probably, I would have switched French for Mandarin, because I guess there will be a lot more useful probably, in modern careers, given the rise of China, and then I would have proceeded to take in computer science, but apart from that, you know, I was also quite content. How do you like languages? You know, do you put much focus on languages, or not, not too much of an interesting to you, Caleb Anderson 16:55 I don't think languages are, I've learned six languages in the past, but I only remember a little bit of like, middle school, high school Spanish. So I think that, you know, I should have put a little bit more focus into languages, but Americans are lazy, and, you know, everybody's learning English now. So I don't think it's going to be too much of a problem. But, you know, I do wish that, you know, I could have communicated with people in the native language, you know, I think it's much more polite. Jamie Beaton 17:27 What's really interesting, now thinking forward to your role models, so who are some of the people that you know, you're just really inspired by, you follow, you're excited by who some of those role models, both in your immediate community and then in the wider world, Caleb Anderson 17:41 immediate community, definitely, my parents, the reason they work is for us, though, sometimes they don't really realize it. Um, you know, and sometimes, you know, I don't care, but, um, you know, they're trying to do the best they can. And, you know, I, you know, I really want to, you know, imitate that. And I really respect that. And, you know, in more of the wider world, I have three, you know, I'm really big role models, Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, as a black person, you know, I really respect what she did for this Husky airman, and, you know, for the entire civil rights movement, you know, as a whole, she, you know, she pushed the boundaries, you know, she tried, she tried to, you know, change America. And, you know, even she even changed, you know, some of the whole world, you know, by, you know, being a white lady, you know, trying trying to respect black people, and Native Americans and, and, you know, things like that, um, Nikola Tesla, he, you know, Thomas Edison, kind of, you know, stole his idea, but he didn't care, you know, he kept on working, even though he knew it would happen. And Thomas Edison literally made a bet for $50,000 if you could, you know, invent the basic idea for the light bulb. And, you know, Nikola Tesla did it. And, you know, Thomas Edison was like, No, I'm gonna pay you, like, $10 an hour. I think that was horrible what he did to him, but you know, um, you know, he kept on going, and, you know, he invented, you know, other things. And, you know, he did change the world. And lastly, I think Neil Neil deGrasse Tyson, um, you know, again, as a black person, you know, he made it, and, you know, it really shows me that I can make it incredible. Jamie Beaton 19:20 And what do you think of Kamala Harris becoming the VP in the US? You know, her being the first Caleb Anderson 19:26 woman Vice President, the first woman, I know, the first black Vice President, the first vice president, as a daughter of immigrants, and, you know, I'm all of those except a woman, you know. So, you know, I think that, you know, again, it also shows that, you know, you can be whoever you want to be regardless of the amount of melanin in your skin, regardless of you know, your gender, you know, regardless of your disabilities, regardless of your, you know, your sexuality, you know, regardless of anything you you can be who you want to be. Jamie Beaton 19:58 I think it's a very inspiring message and And yeah, I think people all around the world are, you know, watching the US fascination obviously, I've never, for example seen in New Zealand, so many people are fascinated by the US elections as they are now, you know, for obvious reasons. And I think this new era will, you know, hopefully see a return to a normal us presidency, what do you think? You know, we're Caleb Anderson 20:19 still gonna feel a little bit of backlash, but, you know, especially since you know, the attack on the Capitol, there might be more of these terrorism acts. And, you know, I live pretty close to Atlanta. So I'm a bit worried. But I really think that once you know, our new president comes in, I think that you know, um, things will start changing, and hopefully for the better, nothing's gonna be perfect. President Biden and vice president Harris are not going to be perfect. But you know, I think that they're gonna start, you know, distribute the Coronavirus, Coronavirus vaccine, and they're gonna try to, you know, change, like, minorities. And you know, I'm in the US. And I think that we're going to try to make, you know, the US as an example for other countries, Jamie Beaton 21:01 while sit will sit Okay, and then taking, I guess, a final little detour. How do you think about extracurriculars? So when you're going through school, to all these great academics, you know, how relevant were things like sports or like community service or other things to you? Was that a big focus? And I asked this, because, you know, many of our students around the world apply to the US for college, and a big part of the application process is typically, extracurriculars, leadership, you know, personal statements, that kind of thing. So how have you waited kind of those don't academic things? Is that been a focus for you? Or have you been just so busy with all of his academic? Caleb Anderson 21:37 Yes, COVID, I haven't really been able to do a lot of extra clicks here activities, but, um, I put in semi competitively, you know, in my neighborhood, and, you know, I dance, um, you know, which is really fun, but I don't think extracurricular activities are too much of a focus for me, I, you know, try to I try to help out my local church. Again, since COVID. I haven't really been able to do any community service, any meal, sports, anything like that. But um, you know, previously, I think that I have been able to, you know, help my baby. Jamie Beaton 22:08 Got it. Got it. Okay. Now, since you're really in a great place, you've accelerated nicely, you're starting in Georgia Tech shortly. I'm sure you'll get a strong GPA. What are some of your goal? graduate schools, you would want to go to graduate school something you're excited by? what particular degree programs? You know, are you interested? I guess law school is one of them. But yeah, any any particular degrees you're kind of excited to do in the future. Caleb Anderson 22:32 Massachusetts Institute of Technology, I think that's my dream school. I know that MIT, you know, Georgia Tech is one of the best schools for aerospace engineering in the country. But I know MIT is just a little bit better. Um, you know, they have more money, you know, they have better technology, you know, um, you know, they have better students. And, you know, it's okay, if you graduated from Georgia Tech, you know, on this MIT this route, I mean, I'm just gonna go on to Georgia Tech. But I really, you know, I really hoped to, you know, go to MIT and get my PhD. They're amazing. Jamie Beaton 23:01 It's a fantastic goal. And, you know, recently your story has been really inspiring many young people around the world as they hear about your, you know, really amazing acceleration. So how have you been handling this kind of media? attention? Has it been quite fun? Has it been challenging? Has it been annoying? Tell me a bit about that experience. Caleb Anderson 23:18 It's definitely been fun talking to people from around the world to new perspectives on you know, just someone like me, you know, I'm just a little 12 year old from Georgia. Um, you know, you know, it's, it's been fun, it's been interesting, you know, I'm seeing people's takes on me. And, you know, people say to my parents, and, you know, my learning, every once in a while, can get annoying. If I have three or four interviews in one day. That's, that's not fun. I can't really do my work. I can't really, you know, watch TV or play any games or anything like that. But, you know, it's not really too much of a hindrance. And yeah, I think that's, you know, we are mostly, you know, really fun, and I do really enjoy this. Jamie Beaton 24:00 That's great. And lastly, you know, it's easy to look at a student as incredibly gifted as you and assume that, you know, you don't do much for fun, you know, you cranked academics, but you know, talking to you, it's clear that you probably have, you know, but a balance as well. So, what kind of things do you do for fun? You know, do you play any particular video games you like, or any movies you like, you know, what do you do when you just want to relax? Caleb Anderson 24:21 I like anime. I love Marvel movies. I like these Japanese toys called beyblades, nerf, transformers. My dad introduced me to the old like 1980s Transformers when I was six. And I actually since i think that you know, on most of my arm, things I do for fun. I really like hanging out with my friends. You know, it's been it's gotten a bit harder during COVID we quarantine ourselves and then we we hang out. But I don't really think that I know a lot of people see me as you know, this nerd who solves Rubik's Cubes when I'm nervous. or something like that. Um, that's, you know, a lot of my friends is here as like, you know, go to a different school. And you know, a lot of people don't tell me that I'm emotionally mature as well, especially for my age, you know, I can sit in the classroom with people, you know, twice my age, and not be bothered by it. And you know, they're not really bothered by me know, a lot of people know who I see, you know, actually don't know my age, and they're really surprised to know my age, they just think I'm sure. So I don't think I'm really nerdy. I just think I have good grades. Jamie Beaton 25:37 Yeah, no, no, I can attest, you know, you're very mature for your age, I don't think I've spoken about, you know, US presidential elections with many 12, 13, 14 year old before in my life. So this is very exciting to me. In any final advice you'd give to our listeners around the world. Caleb Anderson 25:55 Definitely believe in yourself. I know, it's real. It's pretty cheesy. But I think that's very important. Because a lot of people tell you that you're not allowed to do this, or you can't do this. But you know, you don't know something's possible. Until you know, someone does it. People think back hundreds of years ago, people thought that, you know, we wouldn't have these flying missiles. But you know, we do we know people who invented this kind of stuff. And a lot of people told, you know, these people like Henry Ford, you know, this is impossible, but he did it, you know, he created cars, you know, people told Nikola Tesla, hey, you can't make a electricity candle, but he did it, we have light bulbs. So you know, I think that, you know, that's believing in yourself. And you know, not listening to what other people tell you. And you know, really important. Another thing is not being afraid to fail, you will learn more from failure than from success. Everyone has failed at least once every famous actor, every famous engineer, every famous entrepreneur, they've all you know, hit the downward spiral, you know, they've all hit rock bottom. But you know, they got back up, and they learn from their mistakes. So I think that's, you know, another really important thing, you know, to success. Jamie Beaton 27:07 Incredible. Thanks, Caleb. Well, that’s been a real blast. That's everything for today. But yeah, I just want to say, you know, it's very inspiring your story. I do meet many students around the world over ambitious, but I think what you've achieved so far is incredible. And you should keep it up. The momentum is so strong, and I'm sure you're going to achieve some wild things I look forward to following the story. Also, I have many of my alumni that place that MIT, etc. So let me know if I can be useful to connect from you to any of them. And, you know, more than happy to help, but yeah, keep it up. Keep it up. I'll be cheering you on. Caleb Anderson 27:37 All right. Thank you. Podcast Host 27:38 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimsoneducation.org

Ep #27 Building Businesses that Change the World with Young Australian of the Year, Nathaniel Diong

🗓 JAN 16, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And this episode is packed with amazing advice from the founder and CEO of the Future Minds Network and young Victorian of the Year, Nathaniel Diong. With a burning desire to change the world for the better. Nathaniel turned to entrepreneurship. And today, more than 11,000 students have learned the fundamentals of how to start a business through the Future Minds Network. Nathaniel discusses the misconceptions around entrepreneurship, and how to get started today. Let's chat with Nathaniel Diong. Nathaniel, Welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Nathaniel 00:53 Yeah, thanks for having me, Alex. Well, I'm Daniel, I'm the CEO of future mines network. And I've been working to unlock the endless potential of youth, whilst tackling stemming unemployment through entrepreneurship. So we've been really lucky to work with 11,000 Youth across the world to build human skills, a growth mindset and create their own jobs through startups. Podcast Host 01:14 Right. It sounds like you've done that quite a few times. When did you start future minds network? Nathaniel 01:19 Yes, I actually started the exodus theme. And it really came from a place of helplessness. And I grew up feeling really helpless to make a difference where 1000s of people died each day. And so I actually, I got clinically diagnosed with depression, because I spent a lot of time thinking about people in the world who would die. And I wanted young people to realize they could make a difference and realize their own potential. Podcast Host 01:41 I think that's an interesting take that you go to Ward's creating an organization or building a network of people. When the enormity of the issue is weighing so heavily on your shoulders, it can be very difficult to kind of say, what can I do as one person? I think a lot of people get weighed down by that, right? They see the world's issues, and they think, well, what can I do? And you're like, well, I might not be able to do much as one person. But if I put together a whole group of people, and created a network now that has a bit more power, was that your thinking behind creating future minds network? Nathaniel 02:16 Yeah, like for me, you know, I spent like six years thinking about what I could do to make a difference. And it really just started from an idea. I thought to myself, What if we could do this? What if we could run a conference where we could gather people just like me, and see what we could do? And so you know, sometimes I wish I had this grand idea that I create a company that would influence 1000s, and millions. But it really, it never intended to be a company. I started it off as a gathering of 100 yachties. And it just grew from there. Podcast Host 02:48 Where did you go about finding those emojis? I mean, like you were trying to find people like you, how many people will like you at school? Did you have to go too far outside of that community to find these 100 young ladies, Nathaniel 03:01 I think in terms of people like me, not many, because I spent a lot of time by myself thinking about these issues, and really trying to dissect and understand the world around me, like, at 10 years old, the world, like cracks already began to form in a perfect world where I realized that, you know, it was an absolute privilege to have a bed to sleep on every night. And you have to be on the table and to have water. And I think particularly if this conference, what I realized was young people really do want to make a difference, but they just don't know how they don't have the right tools to do so. And they don't know where to start. And so we see this increasingly, like even see on social media, where young people are getting more work, if you will, and more aware of the issues around them, and using advocacy as a way to do that. But for me, I wanted to do more than that. And I wanted to be able to create tangible projects where we could actually see the impact happen. And so that's where I stumbled into entrepreneurship. And the journey began. Podcast Host 03:57 It's very interesting to kind of take that leap from advocacy to projects and tangible, actual action. How big a leap was that? And was that a big challenge for you? Nathaniel 04:08 Yeah, definitely a big challenge. And by all means, I don't think like advocacy or entrepreneurship should be one or the other. I definitely think like, in order for us to work as a society, they really have to coexist. Yeah. And you can't have entrepreneurship without advocacy. And you can't have advocacy without entrepreneurship. There's not one that's better than the other or one that's like more superior in that sense. And in terms of elite to me, I literally, I mean, and to this day, I'm a big believer that nobody knows anything. And so for me, it was just a process of just trying and figuring out what I could do. I literally started with a conference and I thought about, okay, how can we actually turn this conference into something where we make tangible projects. And so I started this idea of a hackathon. And I explored that and then eventually it turned into a fully fledged program where I began running it at high schools across Australia and so on. For me, I think it's a very like entrepreneurship mindset in the sense that I really had to just build, measure and learn everything I did. And from that I was able to see what worked and what didn't, and really understand what are the intricacies? And how do I actually run a program like this. And so like throughout the whole program, like, and my whole journey, the company and its vision has constantly evolved. I wouldn't say that even now I have like, one set definition of what it is. But that's the beauty of it. Like just like a team culture. And just like, the world that we live in today, everything is constantly evolving and changing. Did you have any co founders, so I was doing a solo, I had a, I had a team of about eight, so I had a cabinet of eight at my school. And so they helped me to sort of coordinate the conference. There were some mishaps in the conference, actually, on the day, we had one entire school rock up that we didn't account for. And so he had an additional like, 30 people to feed with no budget to do so I'll venue space got cancelled three times. So we had to re navigate. And the project and technology shut down for an hour. Podcast Host 06:06 Of course it does. Like the one thing you can almost certainly bank on is the time you run your first conference, that object is going to shut down. Nathaniel 06:15 And so like throughout the whole process, like we have to add live, we have to find icebreakers to fill in the time do new activities. And I feel like you know, that first taste of running that conference is exactly what entrepreneurship is like us, as a founder, you have to do everything from marketing, to pitching to business modeling. And a lot of the time things aren't going to go your way. But being able to adapt in these times of uncertainty and extreme pressure is what's going to help you in the future. And I think like during the moment, I very much considered the conference as a failure. I was like I did such a bad job as a leader, you know, I should have been able to see these risks in advance. But looking back, it was a really valuable learning experience for me to see that now, even if you plan, the best conference in the world, mistakes are gonna happen. And it was two or three years ago, I was actually chatting to someone who'd been to the conference. And they said, it was absolutely amazing. And I talked to them about like everything that happened. And they're like, really, I had no idea. And to me that that really amazed me. Because in the moment, I was like, This is the worst thing I've ever done in my life. I've made the biggest mistakes. And so it's really interesting to see those two different perspectives where, you know, you can be really harsh on yourself in the moment. But failure is really just another learning experience. So you'd build measure and Linda? Podcast Host 07:35 Yeah, absolutely. And you do say build, measure and learn. And you say that as if it's like something that you approach almost everything you do with that philosophy of build, measure, learn. What are some of the metrics that you use to build, measure, learn? Nathaniel 07:51 I think it really depends, depends on what what projects you're running. But typically, like, in everything that you do, particularly if you're if you're building your own business, for example, you're really testing a bunch of assumptions, right? And so it really starts with the customer. So customer is king in everything, and being able to understand what are the pain points that they actually suffering from? And what how does my solution? Or how does my company actually fix that? A lot of people approach entrepreneurship, thinking that, you know, I have the best solution in the world, I'm going to change this problem forever. But I forget that the customer is at the core of that problem. And so whether build measure land comes in, is really testing these hypotheses on these customers and understanding what is the biggest problem that they're facing right now? How can we focus our priorities on that, rather than trying to force something or the best product in the world onto them? Podcast Host 08:46 What is it like being a student entrepreneur, though? Do you think it is easier to be a entrepreneur or entrepreneurial student? Or is it easier to be an entrepreneurial 20 to 23 year old? Nathaniel 09:00 It's it's a double edged sword with everything. Particularly when you're younger, there's more room to fail. Yes. And that's because nobody really expects you to do anything better. And so if you come in fresh faced 17 1819 start a business and it fails. No one bad tonight. But if you're 34 years old, trying to sell into like a new career, if you fail, there's a lot more at stake, you have to think about family car mortgage housing. But beyond that, there's a lot about reputation and what other people will think of you. But when you're young, not only do people not have any expectations of what you should do, because they think you should be studying. But people are also a lot more willing to help you because they've been there before. They have been young people who've had amazing ideas of the world that they want to create, but haven't been supported to do so. And so a lot of the times you'll get, you know, political entrepreneurs from Y Combinator or Forbes 30 under 30 actually come back and teach the students because they're doing what they wish they had. when they're younger, and so very much we see this in our programs that future minds Well, we have amazing entrepreneurs come in and teach these students and everything from customer discovery and validation, all the way to how to create a business model and pitching. And it's all based on wanting to give back, because they wish they could have started their business at 16 instead of 20. Podcast Host 10:21 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think I think there's a lot of people who would love to see entrepreneurship being a bigger feature of the school curriculum. And I, you know, there's the argument that people like Gary Vee often make that school failed him because it didn't give him the toolkit to be an entrepreneur, and he had to kind of self learned, did you have to self learn it too? Like, were you kind of just going on YouTube or talking to people? How were you approaching the discovery and experience of entrepreneurship and trying to learn what to do? Nathaniel 10:51 It was all learning by doing. And so you know, when you when somebody wants to learn soccer, right, you don't tell them to sit on the bench and watch someone else play soccer for a week. Because that only helps when you know what you're watching for. Get them to get on the field, start playing gel, start playing games, losing over and over again, and practicing and practicing and practicing until we get better. And so for me, that was the exact same process, I just started building things when they didn't work. I use that as an opportunity to think about what did I learn from this experience, because failure is just feedback, right? It's telling me what's not working and what I can do better. And so the other thing I did was really surrounded myself with community, I surrounded myself with people who I looked up to in the space, and try to learn from them, like very much like law of attraction that you might have heard of, yeah, but being able to manifest and if that's something that you want to become, in the future, hang around those people, and really being able to understand and realize that, Hey, I know nothing now. But there's a whole world of opportunity where I can learn more, I think the other thing was consistently putting myself into ditching me, I went into like seven different startup programs across Australia, where I got to learn through a program, which is meant to give birth to startups. And so I got to learn from the weight Institute from Fitzroy Academy, catalyze a lot of different programs, where the whole process was them teaching you how to learn by doing and constantly pushing you to fail, Podcast Host 12:23 did interesting kind of concept of learning by doing I think there's some people who are doing but not learning at the same time, like they're just doing and they're pushing forward, or they're too attached to their idea. And then they externalize blame, oh, it was these things that were the issue, not my product, not my marketing, not my this, that or the other. It was everything else. But me that was the issue. How do you switch that kind of thinking to take responsibility, take ownership of what is going right? And more importantly, what is going wrong? without necessarily feeling without feeling weighed down by the failures and thinking that maybe entrepreneurship isn't for you, right? Like, how do you keep the motivation going, as you're taking responsibility for the failures, because that must be a bit of a tricky thing to do. Nathaniel 13:13 It's a delicate balance. Because obviously, you know, we talked about this trait called pathological optimism, where you continue to fail, even though you know, you will fail, and you go into that failing again, and again, and again, and you constantly get up. And that's one of the biggest and best things that I've found that can have in mindset. But the other hand is, it's also really important for founders to know when to stop, you know, when an idea is not working and be able to pivot or persevere. Those are the two options that we often hear about. I think, particularly when we talk about an idea and holding yourself dear to the failures that happen, I've definitely encountered that before. One of the things that I've had is almost thinking about your idea as a rock, right? It's not your baby, it's not part of you. It's a rock sitting on the table. And so when people talk to you about your idea and give you ideas about that idea, or they give you feedback on the idea, they're not criticizing you, they're describing the rock. And they're giving you feedback on how to shape that into a better towel than you could ever imagine before. And so I think really taking this perspective and being able to process feedback is something that takes a while as well, because there is a beauty in being able to create something of your own. Because it's like your baby, right? Like when you start a podcast, you're proud of that. Oh, yeah, I think that you've made right and you can't take away from that. But I think what really differentiates success is being able to see your idea as a rock and allow other people to describe that for you and see what they see because you're going to be able to really understand all these different perspectives that you might never have seen before. People could be seeing the rock from a completely different angle. Like it could be in front of you here, but they could be describing the crevices on the other side. Podcast Host 14:55 I love that idea because I feel like in my life at the moment, my brother is Got his own business? Yeah. And I feel like he is the business. Right, he hasn't been able to externalize the business from him. So when people are critical of the business, he feels like Nathaniel 15:11 an attack on yourself. Podcast Host 15:12 Yeah, right. Right, he feels it and it gets him down. And that kind of stuff when he kind of used that thinking of the rock or externalized. And being like, it's not a criticism of me, it's just feedback on the rock, right, which is, you know, the rock that you've created and whatnot, but still, it's, you know, perfectly fine to give feedback to that external piece of piece of yourself, then that's, that's, I think, super, super important. Nathaniel 15:35 The other thing is like being really conscious of who you take feedback from? Yes, the way that I sort of think about it is I almost have like three buckets of where I see feedback. So there are like one or two people that I really look up to. And I really value that advice, because I know they have, like experience, particularly in the industry of education. And they have valuable insight that there are two to five people who have some involvement in entrepreneurship and know the space well, that I sort of trust. And when I hear that advice, I'll consider it or not consider it. And then there's everyone else who has never started a startup before has never worked in education. And the opinions won't really influence the decisions I make. And so it's really important because often, when you're first in your journey, you're listening to everybody, because you want to receive all that advice. But when you do that, people might point you in all different directions, and you won't know where to go. So knowing what to regulate. And when people do describe that rock, knowing what to receive and what not to receive is also a really good trait as well like having one or two trusted people, where you know that they probably have the best angle that you've never thought about and being able to consider that. But then also having the bucket where people describe that rock and they tell you what to do. But knowing that if they have no experience, and you don't trust what they have to say, then it's totally okay to stick to your guns. 100% I Podcast Host 16:57 think it's a really interesting concept of those unsolicited advice that you get 17:03 a lot, right. Yeah, yeah. So Podcast Host 17:05 how do you pretend to listen to the unsolicited advice without necessarily being, you know, mean, or cutting people off? Like, they're obviously trying to give advice, because they feel that their advice would be helpful at this point in time and whatnot. But like, if you haven't chosen them, as your trusted source, how do you kind of sit there and nod and say, Oh, yes, that's very interesting. I'll definitely give that a go. Like, how do you handle that? Nathaniel 17:29 I don't think you have to necessarily, like be fake about it, and nod and agree. But the way that I tend to deal with it is I like to listen first and completely, like, I might spend one or two days actually processing the information, somebody told me next one or two days, I won't receive it straightaway. And so I really acknowledge it because I genuinely care about the advice they're giving me. But I'll look at my own values, I look at what I've learnt and see where does that actually fit in? If it challenges my beliefs? Is it challenging it in a way that will result in progress? Or is it challenging it in a way that will just serve to put me down? Because sometimes the advice that you get is completely unconstructive. People might just say your ideas, horrible idea doesn't have customers, the idea doesn't have a market, which may be true. And so being able to have that time to weigh up these options, and really understand where they're coming from, Podcast Host 18:25 I think it's really important as well. I think sometimes like parents, they can be so well meaning, but at the end of the day, they might not know a huge amount about what you're trying to achieve. And other friends might say, well, well, I know you so well. And you're like yes, but you might be a bit of a negative Nelly, and I love you for it. But in this case, I'm going to choose who I take my advice from. So when you're thinking of the people who you take your advice from, what was your selection criteria for that, like, what were you trying to, or who were you trying to pick and for what reasons, Nathaniel 18:54 and we're not talking about people that I trust or information that I trust, I always look for things that challenge my perspective. And so particularly, it's almost like I seek out people who don't think like me, is often in the space, it's easy to get trapped in your own bubble. And I think we see this in our friendship groups as well, obviously, the friends that we have people who are a lot like us, because we don't want the disagreement, and we don't have it, we just want to hang out and have a good time. And so for me, I like to hang out with people who have a lot of different perspectives to me. So for example, you know, in the education space, someone that I talked to about education innovation is Janette chia from the hacker exchange. So she has a really interesting insight about what the future of work is going to look like, how startups are going to influence that and how the gig economy is constantly changing, that I might not have the same expertise of. So I see the rock, I see the angle, but I see that angle from the person of a young person who's trying to navigate the world of work Janette, she sees it in the perspective of someone who's been in the industry and who's worked in innovation for 1015 years. And so being able to identify what are the things that I'm looking for? And who do I want to challenge my perspectives really helped me to pick the people that I want to spend my time around. Podcast Host 20:11 Yeah, that sounds like a pretty important part of the entrepreneurship process, right? Like you've got your product or your service idea, and you've got all these other bits and pieces. But I think knowing who your trusted sources are, knowing who your community or your support group is, is almost as important as the initial idea in itself, right? Because you know, you need people who will be straight with you will tell you exactly what they're thinking without necessarily being too negative or too nasty about it. So you have been really smart about who you choose, and your support group can be a super important thing. Would you recommend students to choose some older people as well as younger people? Because I mean, I'm sure most kids will look around, you know, in their group. Yeah, as you said, like your circle of friends. Usually you'll find people who agree with you, but I'm willing to guess most students would take their best advice, or their most advice in their circle of friends, and their parents most likely. Nathaniel 21:08 It really depends. I mean, if you have a group of people and all of your friends have businesses that all 17 year old business tycoons, then sure, and the other thing is, maybe they don't have to be business tycoons. Maybe you're working on a idea around disability, and maybe the people that you consult, and your friends are people who've lived with disability, think that's something that we really pushed out programs is, you know, entrepreneurship at future minds isn't just about skills building. That's also about jobs building and mindset building, and thinking about all these different perspectives, and how can I gain insights, and open my mind up to feedback without being overwhelmed by feedback, it doesn't necessarily have to be an older person that you take advice from, but someone with different with experience, or from what I hear from young people is, I don't have enough experience. And I get where that comes from. Because often people think age is experience. But in reality, it's not. Just because you're younger doesn't mean you don't have as much experience means you have a different experience. So depending on the product or service that you're serving the market for. If for example, you're doing work, working with teenagers who love playing video games, and you're developing a solution there, maybe your friends are the best people to talk to because they are the customer. So it really depends on the scenario that you're dealing with. Yeah, Podcast Host 22:28 love that. Love that. How did you say entrepreneurship, helping to solve the issue of injustice and poverty and helping people in different circumstances around the world? Because I think when most students think of entrepreneurship, they're just thinking like money in the bank. Right? So when you think of entrepreneurship, you obviously saw that it could be a solution to some other problems. And how did that come about? And how is the connection continued to grow since then? Nathaniel 22:58 To get context, right now we're in a global unemployment crisis. So 2.8 million young ladies in the next 10 years, need to be significantly rescale. That's seven and 10, Yama, Z's, right. Enterprise skills, human skills, already three times more in demand than technical by employers, and technical is everything that we learn at school. And so entrepreneurship is that gap that bridges all of those things. It does skills building does jobs building, and it does mindset building. And more than that entrepreneurship is a canvas to create change in the world. I started understanding that with entrepreneurship, you could essentially create your own business on anything. And so the way that it really formed was, how might we work with young people to create impact driven businesses? Because what I found was a lot of young people had amazing ideas of how they wanted to change the world. But they just didn't know where to start. Because it seemed too far fetched. Yes, business seem too complicated. It seem like it cost too much capital. And so a lot of it was giving them the blueprint to actually do that. But along the way, we realized that within the education space, it has this endless capacity to help young people into future employment, because you practice things like financial literacy, when you're building your business model. Practice things like communication, when you're pitching. And these are all future skills for a lot of work. Podcast Host 24:18 So like, entrepreneurship isn't just the experience of starting a business, it doesn't matter what the business is, because you will be learning the skills of financial interesting pitching, etc. So it's like, it's like almost a whole new extracurricular, right, because everyone's like, Oh, go do sport. It will teach you teamwork or go down music, it will, you know, make you smarter. But you're like if you want to build a tangible, real world skill set, practice entrepreneurship. Nathaniel 24:45 Yeah. 100%. And the goal of entrepreneurship isn't always to become an entrepreneur. Because whether you succeed or fail, you would have learned skills that are so valuable for future employment. And so we've had what 11,000 young people Go to the program now. So young people from 50 different cultures have gone on to land jobs at UNICEF, build companies with more than 50 employees and gain their own financial freedom. But beyond that those who haven't started their own businesses, they've gained really valuable skills, things like critical thinking, like problem solving, like analytical reasoning, and they've been able to apply it in their own lives to find better employment. Podcast Host 25:25 Now we're getting it because why not? Yeah, I guess, like, my understanding of entrepreneurship was a little bit one dimensional, right? It was like start a business make money, but I didn't really think about it is the skill set and how that skill set can continue to impact you in other areas of life, beyond school, within school, all kinds of different ways. And as you say, like can help to alleviate some of the global issues that are out there, whether that be through starting your own company and employing people donating money. Yeah, because that's why I was trying to think like When most people think I want to make a difference in the world, and I want to help, and I think most students go to the side of, well, I guess I've got to raise money, right, you know, guess we do a casual clothes day. And everyone donates a little bit of money to wear casual clothes. And I guess you're you're kind of thinking bigger and bolder than that. And you're saying I don't know, like, it's about building a skill set first and making long term changes and building a long term skill set for long term impact. Nathaniel 26:20 And sometimes, maybe the donation drives are the best way to do things. Because one of the really important things if entrepreneurship is really being able to understand the customer you're solving for. And so if you do have, like, if you're working with people in Yemen, for example, and you're not from Yemen, and you don't understand the problems they're facing, most likely a business is going to fail. And it's probably not going to make any impact either. It's the same thing where we get you know, policymakers who say young people are the future leaders of tomorrow, but they don't consult young people. And so nothing habits. Yeah, there's no impact that's made. And so you know, when we talk about problems we often think about, you know, have you ever heard of the vitamin best painkiller example? Podcast Host 26:59 And no, Nathaniel 27:00 yeah, okay. So if you take a vitamin every single day, right, and you miss it once, nothing happens. But if you have a burning headache, you'll do anything, and you'll pay anything to get a painkiller. The other side of the spectrum is oxygen. So things you can't live without. So if you go for an entire day, without technology, your phone, the internet, the world's basically going to end, right. So when we think about vitamin, Painkiller, and oxygen, these are the same as how painful our problems are. So if you've got oxygen, you've hit gold. Yeah, something people can live with that. If you have a vitamin. It's a nice addition. But people probably won't care that much about it. painkiller, solving a big pain, that's when you've also hit God, so painkiller and oxygen, because at the end of the day, like each of the businesses that you've run, whether it be impact or not impact, aren't immune to the challenges of business, you still have to finance and what people are going to pay for are things that solve pain points, because there's so many other things to care about. So when we bring that back to the example, you're not solving a painful problem in Yemen, or in your local community, that's not going to be successful business. Podcast Host 28:13 Yeah, fundraising certainly has its place. I'm not saying fundraising is useless thing. I'm just saying like, it's interesting to kind of look at a problem and to think about it in different ways. Nathaniel 28:22 There's a funny story, like, because I started off my journey, fundraising as well. And so one year I did the 40 hour famine, and you might know that 40 hour famine is this competition, where for 40 hours, you give up things you love. This one year, I gave up food, water, technology, transport, furniture, talking, it's Podcast Host 28:44 Oh, my gosh, you went extreme? Nathaniel 28:46 Yeah, yeah. So I was like, completely silent the whole day, didn't eat anything. I had to sleep on the floor, couldn't sit on chairs. But yeah, that was like one of the experiences that you know, where I started off, donating and trying to make my impact there. And then gradually, I stumbled into entrepreneurship. So Podcast Host 29:05 really lucky to have had that journey. Yeah. And you saw that that entrepreneurship could have I guess, longer lasting change, and you could sleep on a bed and sitting on a bed, 29:15 which is a good thing. Podcast Host 29:17 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'm interested in your entrepreneurship toolkit, right? So you've got all these different things that are going out there different apps, is there anything that you personally rely on and say, yeah, these are my go to that I use every day. Nathaniel 29:29 Honestly, there aren't any apps or systems in place that are going to make you successful. And there aren't any that you really need to be an entrepreneur, but some good ones just for fun. Things like figma, where you can start prototyping UI and UX. But you can do the exact same job just on paper and do paper prototyping and do sketches and wireframes that, you know, you can use everything from Google Docs to notion to air table where you get to start information, but I think the biggest thing is really starting with what is the problem that I'm solving, as we talked about before? Is it a vitamin painkiller and oxygen, and having open and honest conversations with the customers you're solving the problem for? So I think really like, applications are one thing, but just start and you'll find things that work better for you along the way. Podcast Host 30:21 When you say just start, what would be the first thing, the first point on the to do list that students should have? If they want to get into entrepreneurship more, because I know that there's a lot of students, and also podcast hosts who might suffer a little bit from paralysis by analysis, right? where it's like, I need to know more, I need to research more, and you're obviously an advocate of doing, but I think there's a lot of people who will say, Okay, yeah, look, I get the benefits of doing, but I need to kind of lay a little bit of groundwork first, before I feel ready to do the doing. So what would be some of those initial steps that you think students could take within the next 24 hours or so to start getting their business pointing in the right direction, Nathaniel 31:10 find the problem of solving, find something that you're passionate about, and you're able to relate to, or can connect to, or if you can't, people that you can talk to who suffer from that problem, always start problem first and just go from there. I think, you know, there isn't really a toolkit as to where to start, other than really diving into it. Because along the journey, that's where you actually learn. If you spend all the time planning, everything that you plan is based on assumptions, because you haven't tested anything. It's the same thing as, say, for example, you have like a lab experiment. If you spend all the time planning, you have a great research document, but the research documents going to be black until you do the experiment. That's when you see the results. And you learn from those results. Yes, so the biggest thing is being able to identify a problem, and really understanding you know, what's actually complex about this problem that I haven't thought about before? Who can I talk to who suffers from this problem? Is that a painkiller? Or oxygen? Or vitamin? Yeah, really starting there? Podcast Host 32:11 When you look at some of the world's problems, they can be pretty overwhelming. Would you recommend students look at working on more niche problems they can help solve? Or perhaps problems on a smaller scale? Nathaniel 32:22 Yeah, definitely. That's where they should start. And obviously, from there, it's just a process of brainstorming ideas and what you do, like you can literally, you know, okay, so I care about the environment a lot, I can think about how can we reduce plastic waste, so something very specific, but even then plastic waste is really big. So what's the tangible activity or thing that my business can do? What's the key activity that we can do, or we can earn money from, maybe we collect plastic bags, and we bring them to a recycling center, and they pay us like a seven donation to continue our work. And so it's starting from that problem, brainstorming a whole ton of ideas of what you can do, and testing each one of these ideas until you find something that Podcast Host 33:05 works. I love that last bit there. Because I think so many people get attached to an idea, right? The first idea, or the one that they love the most, or the one that they think will work best, right? And then like they I feel like some people get so attached to that idea that they're either a scared for it to fail, and so don't do much with it. Or be don't consider any other possibilities. And say, like, this is the thing, this is my golden ticket to success, right? No, but I love that idea that it's about creating a whole list, you know, brainstorm, 20 minutes, write as many things as you can all those kinds of ideas, right? There's little activities you can do. And then kind of testing one by one, you know, how will it work? Is it a vitamin? Is it a painkiller? Or is it oxygen? And then kind of going through that process of? Will it be able, you know, will I be able to monetize? You know, will I be able to monetize it? Is that my goal? In any case, you know, is it going to achieve the things that I want it to achieve? Essentially? Nathaniel 34:05 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like, the first thing I started was a smart to set pack, which is equipped with light sensors and reminders for chronic illness patients. So with remaining chronic illness patients when to take the medication. And when the time was right, the pills would all fall into the center compartment, you'd open it up. And once you've opened it, the sensors would send reminders and notifications to your local GP, and your family and things like that. So they know that you took your minutes. And what I found was no, I tested this idea build prototypes did mdps. And what I found was I just didn't have the interest or expertise to continue doing it. But if I never took the leap, and if I never tried out this idea, I would never have you learned anything. And so I decided to close that idea and start a new one. I started meals and deals which was a start up in food and financial literacy. And I started future minds and so you This whole journey jumping from idea to idea was really exploring everything that we talked about before. It's totally okay to test different ideas. And if they don't work, it's okay to move on to another one. Podcast Host 35:11 I'm sure there's a students who think that once they kind of brand themselves as, say, for instance, the pill reminder guy, that it must be a bit of a pride swallowing activity to then give it up. And for people to be like, Hey, what happened to that medication idea that you were so passionate about? Not too long ago, what happened to that did you have to do with any of that, to me, Nathaniel 35:34 it wasn't a big deal. I was just like, you know, I didn't end up doing the idea. And that's fine. I just moved on. I can understand where it's almost like a reputation thing where it becomes your nickname, or it becomes a thing that people refer you to believe everything, like, even when you move high school to university, your nickname is change your identity and who you are, aren't defined by what you do. But what you consistently put out in the world, and so sre, you might be the pillar minor guy who didn't end up doing that, the setback and didn't end up mass marketing and making a billion dollar idea. But you're also that guy who learned from your mistakes, and had a valuable learning experience, which projected you even further into entrepreneurship. So I'm a strong believer, and you know, obviously, like, the the age old rejection is just redirection. But more than that, we as human beings are constantly evolving. And failure is inevitable. Like, if you're not failing, it means you're not trying at all, you're not even getting a shot. But if you are failing, that means you have that opportunity to succeed or fail, you're gonna fail either way. So my swag out of a bag? Podcast Host 36:45 Absolutely. I think that's very valuable advice, to just go back to that original mindset shift was there actually, that moment where you were like, hang on, I'm thinking about this completely the wrong way. It's not about me trying to solve the world's problems. It's just about me starting, was there any particular catalyst for that, Nathaniel 37:03 to me, it was realizing my place in the world, and where I fit into everything, and I'm sure you would have picked up from my talk and sort of how, you know, we've known each other for a while, and how much I think about the world and get it into that. And realizing that the world is not all about me. But the world is also not not all about me as well. And so there are like, in everything that I say, and everything that I do, everything is a double edged sword, and being really aware of the world around me and how I fit into that was a really big part of my journey. Because something with me is like, I have like a classic growth mindset, where everything I hear I almost absorb like a sponge. And then I process that information. So being aware that I know nothing at all. And I'm constantly on a learning journey really helped me to develop the perspectives I have today, and be really solid and what I believe in. Podcast Host 38:02 Yeah, no, that's, and that does take time, you know, when you're 1516 years old. Those are some pretty big topics that you're wrestling with, right? Yeah. Nathaniel 38:10 And there's no rush to success, right? You have the rest of your life to ponder about these topics, by any means. I don't think I want anyone else to go along my journey as well, because it was one filled with a lot of sadness, and one that was really challenging. But, you know, being aware that there is options to create the change that you want to see in the world, and to be able to create cool things without consequences of losing millions of dollars. It's really important. Like a lot of people think about startups and like, I don't want to start because I don't want to lose like 100 k in money to invest in my startup. Yeah, when people start, most people put in $0, if anything, they might get $10 out of it. So it's totally okay to use these as learning experiences to just do things that you care about and do things that you love. Podcast Host 38:57 Yeah, a very good message for our listeners, one of their guests, their perennial questions for any young entrepreneurs is what is the value of university, when you are wanting to start businesses, Nathaniel 39:08 universities have their value in the sense that they create a really good environment and community, for innovation and for creativity. A lot of the people that you meet in University are invaluable connections that you'll have for life. No, I go to Monash University and really blessed to have a really good curriculum around them trying to embrace innovation for the future. And so I've actually lectured at Monash college and developed some entrepreneurial content. And so it's good that they have this forward thinking but definitely, like all educational institutions, there's a lot of lacks. Yeah, a lot of the time like in degrees, we aren't being taught the skills that we need. And so it's really important that we as young people continue to explore these journeys. And don't just take University as the be all and end all in a sense university should be your supplement. And self learning should be your main source of learning. So you should be like able to be exploring all these different topics and learning new things all the time. And university degree, that should just supplement everything that you already know. So I definitely think like there's a lot of work to be done in this space. But yeah, it's it's, it's still very important in terms of being able to create that sense of community of people who can support you in the future, but also having a really good time. Like, there's no rush to become like a millionaire overnight. The good points is the community and the sense of knowledge that you can have the bad points is almost like you go through a system for four years, but what do you actually get out of that? How are you pushing yourself to use uni as a supplement, rather than your main source of learning? Podcast Host 40:48 Yeah, I think it's a not just a good way to live by when you're at uni, but definitely when you're at school, too. And speaking of self learning, and entrepreneurship at school, did you have any issues with your parents, when you started spending more and more time on your business ideas, rather than say, studying for the next exam? Nathaniel 41:04 Definitely. And coming from like a Malaysian Chinese background as well, like heavy like Asian parents, the expectation is, you know, get good grades, do really well get a good job, start a family have house, etc. I've always been a bit of a rebellious kid. To me, entrepreneurship, like I mentioned before, was this canvas where I could create the change that I wanted to see in the world. And so despite being told to like, consistently focus on my studies, I couldn't keep my brain away from it. And so if I couldn't take my studies off, which I didn't want to at the time, I might as well just do both, and see how I cope with it. And I think the the understanding there for me, as well as not putting an expectation on myself to change the world overnight, or start the best business overnight, but still be able to pursue my passion. While I still study. Some people that works for some people, does it some people have to drop out of school, and start their own business and do that full time? But if that works for them, that's great. If it doesn't for others, that's also great. I think it's a process of knowing what's most important to you, and giving yourself that opportunity to try. So if that means that you have to take off a year, like a lot of people actually do this, like take a gap year. Yeah, before university to explore what you want to do, then so be it. There's no like blueprint to success or blueprints, having a good life, but following what you think is best and giving yourself room to try and fail. The other thing that I hear a lot is, I don't know what I'm passionate about. And often people ask me, How do I find my passion? My answer is, try things. Yeah. Are you meant to know what you're passionate about? If you haven't tried anything new, be really bad at something, try surfing and keep falling off the board. If you love it, keep surfing and get the hang of it. Try Water Polo, play an instrument, start a business. Start your own Etsy store and make your own clothing or jewelry. Yeah, like there's an LS word for that to you to really explore, you know, right now information is at our fingertips. So if you look at AI, and you're like, Wow, that sounds really cool. I want to have a look into that. Google it, learn more about it. And maybe along the journey, you might end up building a startup that involves AI, you never know where that might take you. So if you want to find your passion, and you want to explore these things, just try a bunch of different things and see what you like. Podcast Host 43:27 Yeah, I completely agree that there's a lot of kids who do have that I can find my passion. passionate about. And yeah, I I usually say to kids, what frustrates you, when you see something on the news, or you read about something or you see something happening in your local neighborhood? And you're like, Oh, I have a visceral kind of emotional reaction to it. What is it? Nathaniel 43:48 It's like, you can create something, join something, learn something. And a lot of times, not knowing what you want to do is great. It means that you're not stuck in one pigeonhole. Like, if you're really set on, like you love playing the guitar, chances are you spend all the time playing the guitar and you never explore another instrument. So if you don't know what you're doing, or you don't know what you like, that's great. It means you have an endless amount of opportunity to find and see what are the things that really excite you? What are the things that frustrate you? What are the things that evoke these emotions? Podcast Host 44:19 Yeah, I love that I that concept is something that I talked to students about as well. They're like, I don't know what I want to do in the future. I'm like, great. All the doors open, right? Like, you know, at the end Nathaniel 44:28 of the day, like a thing that I say a lot is age is just a label. Yeah, at the end of the day, we're all curious humans. We all want to explore things, learn things. It's it's human nature to want to learn new things and be curious and ask questions. So if anything excites you, like go ahead and do it, and a lot of the times, there is no right or wrong answer. No one says there's a meaning to life or a set purpose for each individual. It's up to you to explore what that looks like. Podcast Host 44:55 Well, is there any other advice you would give for our lovely listeners from all around the world and keeping Your mind most of them are high school. Some of them are Crimson stuff. I'm sure if you heard this episode, some of them are going to be teachers and educators. But yeah, what advice would you give to our listeners no matter what age or walk of life Nathaniel 45:12 they're from. The advice I would give is, failure is just another word in the dictionary. And it's up to you to define what it means. Podcast Host 45:21 Yeah, short and short and sweet to marijuana. If you walk away with anything from this episode, it's a really good one to walk away with. Yeah, I think that's a really good message. If students want to contact you, what would be the best way? Nathaniel 45:34 Yeah, contact us on Facebook, Instagram, it's just future minds network. Or on LinkedIn, you can google us website, whatever is easier for you. We're running events in high schools all across Australia, all throughout this year next year. So excited to see where the rest of it leaves. Podcast Host 45:52 Thank you so much for joining us on the top of the class podcast, and we can't wait to see what you do next. Nathaniel 45:57 And thanks for having me.

Ep #26 Making Change Through Advocacy, Action and Insects With Astro Adara

🗓 JAN 13, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with Adara Hagman. Adara, is a 17 year old from Canada who has partnered with organizations like IBM to tackle the Sustainable Development Goals, and who is working on projects as diverse as insect burgers to 3D modeling. We chat about the need for both advocacy and action, for tips for networking with organizations, and why you don't need to know everything to make a difference. Hi, Adara, welcome to the top of the class podcast, it's fantastic to have you on Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Adara 00:52 That's for sure. I'm excited to be here. So hi, everyone, I'm currently 17. And for me, my whole kind of passion lies around sustainability and exploration. And those are two really big areas for me. And what ties it together is this idea of closed loop systems. And that's basically us being able to reuse materials in a circular loop, which is really exciting for me in terms of us being able to slow global warming, making sustainable cities and also us being able to go to space, for example. And if we want to live on Mars, then we need to be able to happy systems. We want to terraform it and live there and like our future food and energy and everything. That's really exciting to me. Podcast Host 01:29 Awesome. So there's a lot of different things that we can talk about. But one thing that I want to start off with is your move from activism to then now I guess, being the action maker, can you talk about that balancing act between the activist side of things, what would be the other title and action maker a change maker 01:49 I like change maker but would like to even say like, I think even advocacy is a great form of Changemaking, as well. So I can definitely talk about that. And kind of like how I framed it in my life and think about it now. But maybe even this chapter can be like innovator in a sense, just because I'm going with more of like a technology problem solving perspective. So I'm really passionate about environment and women's rights, I'm going to talk about those issues and work on campaigns and things like that. And, you know, that's all I knew how to do. So that's what I started with, because that's all I knew about and I was exposed to. And I wasn't sure if I was making a lot of impact, and in doing so, but it felt like at least I was able to do something and I'm grateful I got to start there. But I almost felt like I wanted to do more like it did feel super tangible. And I wasn't sure if I, I was like too young to do anything. And then from there, I just had a bunch of kind of like serendipitous events happen, I guess, probably because I knew where my interest lied. And I think when you kind of know what you're interested in, you're seeking for things that kind of just pop up sometimes, which is kind of cool. From like working with charities, specifically, I was in their first ever social entrepreneurship program. And that led me to find tks, railing about technologies. And I was already really interested in programming in school, I thought it was really cool. And robotics specifically. But I didn't know anything about all these crazy technologies like genetic engineering and artificial intelligence and stuff. And when I heard about them and tickets, I was so excited that these could be tools. And I felt like I could do more by doing more actionable things. And I want to emphasize that I think it's so important to have that because the piece too is we're not talking about it. That's kind of the first step. But then from there, I feel like if you have advocacy, but no action, then it's just all talk but you still need that part before people are still talking about the problem. So then you need that second step after. And I felt like I could make more impact from actually being able to do that, which is kind of what ended up happening learning about technologies than just advocating for Sue found, like the advocacy and like the policy space more specifically. So for example, one of the conferences I went in before it was called the women's forum. And they work on the g7 mandate and a lot of like more woman related policies towards a bunch of these, like global conversations. But I found like from doing things like that, I was also in the Ministry of Education Council in Ontario, which is the province I live in, in Canada. And we got to make proposals and recommendations and all these things. But I found policy was so slow moving, there was um, United Nations youth general assembly was called the younger this year. And then we came up with this whole community of like, all these different problems that youth are really passionate about from the delegates across the world. But I still find that's really great. So we can get like, you know, our voices and opinions, or maybe some action can come from that. I just find it again, it's like a really slow moving area. But I think it's also so important that we have all these different aspects of change. So if your thing is advocacy, or if it's even like art or technology, and I think you know, you should really stick with the area that you like, and see how you can make change in that area. But for me, I think I can create more change within like the problem solving space. And that's something I already really love to do. Podcast Host 04:37 Well, you got a lot of things going on. I didn't know you were part of the UN youth general assembly, is that's what it was called? 04:42 Yeah, so that happened this year. I think it was the 75th anniversary, I believe the whole General Assembly. And this cool thing came up this year called the young gun, which stands for the youth General Assembly, it was led by this organization called bridging the gap and they got delegates from different countries around the world to join this Kind of like delegate union where we all had to talk about these problems, right, a mandate. We had some like meetings and things like that, too. We all joined working groups on specific problems. So there was one on like, health, there was one in education, I was in the climate action working group. And we had to talk about those problems, our perspectives, what we would see as like recommendations for that. Podcast Host 05:18 Yeah, that must have been a pretty exciting thing. How did you get into that? 05:21 For that one, specifically, again, I find a lot of things like come from I think I like having a network in certain places. And then like, also like knowing what you're interested in for me, again, like climate. And actually last year, so this specific thing, my friend, she invited me to this thing called bridging the gap forum. And it was the first ever one it was in my province, I don't think there was not many youth there, maybe like five actually. But those of us who were able to go got to go to this forum. There's much of cool people there too, like, Frankie grinder that's underground, his brother, and all these celebrities and stuff. And it was a whole forum talking about un related problems and the StG goals specifically, so it was the first one that they held here. And then we got to delegate for that. And then just from like, staying in touch the organization, I found out about the delicacy that they were going to do this year in partnership with the UN for the US General Assembly. And I was like, I need to apply for this. And I do that, and they got two delegates, that was awesome. Podcast Host 06:17 Great, and knowing when to apply, and knowing what to say, and that application of two very vital ingredients to make sure that you actually get into these fantastic opportunities. So was the application like for that the UN General Assembly, 06:30 this was essentially like a type form or like a Google form, depending on what you know, essentially, a bunch of questions about like, you know, why are you interested in being a delegate? And I think just really key to any application for a lot of these, like different opportunities, you got to be yourself, don't try to like tell them something that they might want to hear tell them like why why are you genuinely want to advocate for say, you want to do the health pillar specifically. And then like, you know, when you list everything, just like really authentic answers, and then from there to a lot of it didn't getting like any unique opportunity might also be like network. So if you can try to start building that now too, which is a whole like thing in itself to try to work on. But I'm seeking opportunities in areas that are of interest to you, via, you know, reaching out to people or, or seeing like, what events are out there right now that you could get involved with, or like specific organizations for the area that you're interested in. And then from there, a lot of opportunities could stem just from getting involved with one specific thing, which is kind of like for me, I got involved with a charity, which was all about social impact, and youth. And then from there, a lot of things just stem from it. So I think it's sometimes finding like your starting place, and a lot of things stem from seeking the things that you're interested in, Podcast Host 07:34 kind of like getting involved in one organization, and then keeping your eyes and ears open for other people in the organization that are talking about other things. And like, I know, LinkedIn, you're very active on that platform as well. That's where we connected on LinkedIn. And I think sometimes the social media algorithms like on LinkedIn and Twitter can be very helpful too. Because once you start adding a few people who are involved in these kind of organizations, then it just more and more people get suggested to you they're like, oh, maybe you should connect with this person and this person, is that similar to what your experience has been? 08:05 Yeah, I totally agree. It just starts from like, looking for a couple to be honest. And it stems from there. It's about like you knowing what you're interested in trying to secret. Like, for example, I like Twitter a lot. say like, you're interested in climate, you could even if you don't know where to start, you could Google some people who are digging climate, find their Twitter's, see, who do they follow, and it will ask many people to, or as a tweet, you might like find more threads. If they had this person, let me check it out. Maybe they're doing something cool. Maybe you want to follow them. It's kind of comes up organically. You can also do things like Google, what's a good slack group for climate, for example, there's a great one called work on climate, which I just learned recently. And I learned about that one. And I was like, This is such a great community, great things like that, where if you look what's a slack group or a community online that I can join for this specific thing. And you can again, from there, start reaching out to people in the slack group or this community and see where you can start your involvement? Podcast Host 08:53 Yeah, absolutely. I think we can definitely link a few of those things in the show notes. So watch out for that. But I completely agree on the Twitter side of things. I've been following heaps of really amazing students from all around the world. And so I've got about 200 students on there now. So if you want to try and get a shortlist of amazing kids to follow, then that's a good place to start. Just go and click on the top of the class podcast follow list. And you'll see a pretty good run. But yeah, I totally did what you just suggested and went to some, like people like Greta Thornburg and stuff, and I was like, I wonder who she follows, and then followed a couple more of those students. And then it kind of filters down, which is really cool. And from the networking piece, I think slack is something that I have been very surprised in and how quickly that's growing in that slack community group that you're in the environmental one. Are there many students or is it mainly like professionals? Like what do you tend to see from slack community groups? 09:42 I didn't even know about slack until the RFC, I was exposed to it in some sort of sense. If you don't know what slack is, I mean, you could definitely just check it out online, but it's kind of like what I would say to you like Discord. If you know what discord is for like gaming and talking to your friends. It's the same concept. Just normally for more of a work perspective. You have the workspaces. You can dm people And channels, right. And we also used it at younger this year. So we were able to connect with delegates from across the world, you can shoot each other DMS and stuff. But I think it's a really great way to connect with people. I often don't find though, unless you're in a specific like youth community, at least like it's a working climate. And I'm like this future if we wouldn't call it thought for future, I don't see a lot of youth in there. I think the reason is, it's not that you can't have youth in them. It's just I don't think they know about it to be honest. And you know, if that's what you're interested in enjoying it don't. I know, it might be a little bit like even intimidating that you might be the first youth in this slack workspace, but you know that that's okay, you can start being nice people. And oftentimes, they're open to talk to you, which is really great. And also, if there isn't a slack workspace that you want, you can also start one, you can be an activator for the things that you want to do too. So you could be like, I'm going to create my own workspace, reach out to people, starting my community, see if people can share this around for youth working on the future of health. For example, if that's not something and you want to create that community, you can also start it, which is a great thing, you just have to think about what path you want to follow. Podcast Host 11:02 I think that's a good tip for students to get outside of the school bubble. I know sometimes, how do you see yourself? How do you describe yourself to other students? Or how do you introduce yourself to other people? Do you lead with the fact that you're a student? Or do you lead with the fact that you're founder of a few organizations? Do you lead with the fact that you're an activist or an innovator? Like how in your mind, do you present yourself to the world? 11:28 No, honestly, it just depends on like, when I'm talking to people, I actually don't typically like lead off with like the founding a specific thing that just kind of comes up if we're talking about a topic that someone's interested in. But for me, the titles that I normally say when I am trying to kind of like encapsulate the type of person I am my interests, I usually go with futurist because I love thinking about the future. And how can we create a better future specifically sustainably. I always say Explorer, I love exploring things, especially like learning but also nature. Like I love exploring nature, I would love to go to space Monday, that's always been a really big aspiration. And I say activist a lot too. For a while actually. Like I think as you're like you're growing up, like you kind of like are figuring out like how do you like frame yourself and all these things, and it keeps changing, which is totally okay. She for me. I think I stopped saying activist for a couple years because I was like, Okay, now I'm in this innovator space more, I'm gonna leave that activism behind. And I kind of forgot about it until the past, like, two years when I was like, why can't I do a bit of both, because it's still important to have that advocacy part. And it was a big part of my journey. So I've been trying to get back into policy a bit more to because it does go hand in hand with making even technology accessible sometimes. And I forgot about that for a while. So I do say that because it's been a big part of my journey. And now I'm trying to get back into it with younger recently, and other related things. And I also say designer a lot now, because I found that's a really good way to kind of like describe the kind of person I am. I like designing systems and thinking about how we can solve problems. And I've always been really interested in art too, and creative kind of things. And that's what led me to wanting to be able to like work on tangibly solving these problems, because they're the kind of like challenges, but I really like solving challenges. So that's been something that made them so interesting to me, I think. Podcast Host 13:06 Yeah, well, on your website, it said that you are an explorer at Hot scientists and training part time researcher and aspiring astronauts. I love that because it definitely is so far removed from the typical mindset. I think, well, maybe I'm wrong here. And please correct me if I'm wrong, of what a student mindset typically is, like, I feel like a student mindset is very one directional in that you receive information and you then regurgitating it on an exam at some point in time. Usually, that's the kind of student mindset. And I love that in that sentence that you have on your website, it doesn't really mention the fact that you're a student, which I think is really interesting. How important do you feel it is for current students who are in year 910 1112, whatever might be high school to give these other titles a go? 13:59 Yeah, um, I mean, I'm still a student as well, I don't put that in my thing, because I think that's just something I am. And then I'm just kind of like talking about, like, the things that describe me personally, right. And I think the cool like part of that is, as you are like adopting maybe these titles, for example, the benefits that could come out of it, at least what I have found personally, is that it kind of like helps me understand who I am better and be able to explain it to people, like I know, like, personally, I know like labels aren't maybe like the best thing and you feel like really like kind of stuck in them. But if you can start to find some of the things that do really resonate with you, it helps you better understand yourself. And the goals you have what you kind of like want to move towards. And then when you're explaining to others, it's the kind of like the best way that you can maybe like encapsulate to that to someone else that could be like I'm an explorer, and maybe someone knows what an explorer is, and that we can go into that a little bit more. But it really helps I think and then set understanding yourself and communicating that to others in an effective way. So you can find people who will align with your mission and work with them and stuff. So as like you're figuring out your pathway. I think if you can find some of those things that really resonate with you then then start saying those two If you also want to say I'm a student totally embraced that you're a student too as well. I noticed Yeah, I don't normally say that. I'm not sure why, but I don't know, I feel like maybe it's just a given to some extent that I'm a student, or like, it comes up where people like, how old are you? And I'm like, I'm 17. In high school, right? So I'm a student, but here's like, some of the things that make me me, Podcast Host 15:18 right. 100%, it's interesting to kind of think that, you know, sometimes student is that kind of old school mindset of receiving information and then going into an exam. But it can be an exciting thing as well, to be a student, you could be a student of space, you could be a student of exploration, you could be kind of more than just sitting in a classroom, like, Don't limit yourself, I think it's really having that mindset, though, that you are more than just someone sitting in a classroom, trying to get a high school, and that kind of can really help develop who you are. And I think it makes you a more interesting person. When you say, Look, I've got passions and interests, and I've got these things that I'm learning about outside of school as well. 16:00 Yeah, I think being like a student is like a great thing, too. I think, I love this idea of being a lifelong learner, especially like, as moving forward right now, things are changing a lot. It's a really exciting time of like, all these new innovations and problems, we also have to solve which, which are hard, but it brings about all these things, and it's gonna be a lot of change. So we kind of have to be lifelong learners, which is such an important thing. And I think it's kind of about the way that you think about it, and frame it. Right. So I mean, student can like often be associated with again, like the kind of typical school thing of like, we keep regurgitating information. And like we do all these different things, right. But it could also be like, like you said, I'm a student of space, you're a student of XYZ. And even if you don't know what your thing is yet to, and maybe your focus really is you're super excited about the things you're learning in school, to be a student. And then you could like even like, explain to people, if you're trying to kind of like, talk about the things you're interested in that you're like a really big biology enthusiast. And here's why, like, you can go beyond like the classroom too. So it could start from there, like in biology class, and you're loving it. And this is your thing, you could be like, I'm a biology enthusiast, and then take on the things that you're doing in class, and ask a lot of questions. Don't just go from like that, I need to memorize this and regurgitate that also be like, I'm gonna start asking questions and diving deeper into this, because I'm interested in it. What can I do with biology, that's super interesting, and start doing your own research at home, it doesn't just need to be the things that are assigned, necessarily. And that's kind of where you can find passions. And if anything, sends interest from there specifically to Podcast Host 17:21 Yeah, I think a lot of students don't do that. Because, I mean, a lot of students do, which is great, but I think a lot of students sometimes don't, because they're like, let's just focus on the exam, I was good a good score in the exam. Like, if I want to learn different stuff, a lot of students will ask themselves first, but will it be on the exam, you know, like? So I guess for you? How do you justify learning above and beyond what you get taught at school? Is there something in the back of your mind that says, I'm learning this stuff, even though it's not going to be in the exam? Am I potentially costing myself a better score? 17:55 Yeah, I know, it's so easy to fall into, like thinking that way. Because we're trained to think that way. That's just kind of how school is we're trained to do that. So you don't know like other ways to frame it necessarily. Now, for me, like it took a while I had to unlearn a lot of things. I think it started a lot like to teach us specifically, like, I love learning, and I love learning in school, but I found like, you know, oftentimes, like, our curriculum is outdated. And all these different things about school, it didn't make sense to me. But we're taught to really care about our grades and like, do things sometimes just for a university application, which probably isn't the best motivator to do something. But we're like, trying to like check all these boxes to make sure that we get into this school by having the perfect life thing just for that purpose, specifically, but I think we have to, again, like think about the bigger picture. And it takes time to like, learn this. And I think I'm going to like a privileged position because I have parents that had been quite supportive of me like wanting to follow kind of, like, quote, unquote, unconventional pathway, and, and not being too hard on me with my grades and stuff. But like, personally, I was quite hard on myself still, because I'd be like, I want to get as like the best marks I can and like, make sure that I'm still checking those boxes. But then I was also trying to do like this new technology stuff starting and everything. And I had to learn that, you know, you can't do both necessarily, and like, well, you can, but you can't like do like everything. So I was trying to do like every club in school, and like crush like grades. And I wanted to do like the whole technology thing and stuff. And I had to figure out what was like, the most important. I left like a lot of extracurriculars and stuff because I was like, I think I'm learning more from doing this technology, extracurricular. I don't need to do everything. I think oftentimes, I've heard universities don't care about you, being well rounded, they want a well rounded class. So if there's something that is like your thing, and that you're really interested in, you spend your time, like say doing technology and like going really, really deep. Yeah. And that's really exciting because you're that kid and then they can have that athletic and they can have their world round of a bunch of people who are pursuing the things that they're interested in and it doesn't need to be one area. It's totally okay to not know what you want to do. But I think it's interesting when when you start like working on your own thing and things and stuff like that, too. It doesn't need to be checking all these specific boxes. In school, I didn't know it was like that way. But that's because we're trying to think that way. So I had to learn that it's okay not to do that. And know that grades aren't always the most important thing. But it's still I would say very important to like, get good grades and stuff. But you don't need to be able to have to do everything and be so hard on yourself sometimes, because you should be working on the things that you're passionate about. I think that translates the best into like, I think you succeeding because I found like, this, like really big trend where like, if you're doing like the thing that you really care about, I think it's oftentimes, like better work Podcast Host 20:31 at work. 20:32 Yeah. So they're really passionate about some things like Frank Gehry is really passionate architecture, he does amazing architecture. And like, it's really exciting and stuff. So if like, there's something that you really like it, you go into that area, you're spending a lot of time besides like doing your grades and stuff, like this is the thing that you spend your time outside of school doing as like your hobby extracurricular not having to do like, five, because you feel like you need to, I think you put a lot more effort and thought into that, and it will take you farther. I don't know, that's the correlation. I found maybe it's not true. But um, I think if you do the thing that you're passionate about, it can take you places. Podcast Host 21:03 Yeah, well, I certainly agree that finding your passion can be can really open up many, many doors. But I know a lot of students will say, Well, how do you find your passion? Now, one thing that I can tell from you is that you are, I guess what many people would say is well read. So you've gone above and beyond school, and you are absorbing information from a lot of different sources. And I think that's helped you find your passion. But you know, for students out there who are kind of thinking, Well, you know, I don't really know what my passion is yet. What advice would you give them? 21:37 Definitely, yeah, I feel lucky that I, I've found things that resonate with what, but I don't think it's like finding your passion. I think a lot of it, we say that. But I think the way I think about it is is like you're developing it too. And a lot of it comes from being curious. And you have to let yourself be curious. And I think that's one of the things we lose a lot as we go through school. And we're trained to, like think a certain way, we use a lot of the Curiosity we have when we're young. And we want to like ask all these questions about how everything works. And that's what we do, like when we're in kindergarten, right? And then we lose a lot of that. But I think if you kind of like, let yourself be curious. And if you're having a hard time, like set up forcing functions for yourself to do that. So like, I mean, like 10 minutes, or even like 15 minutes a day, I'm just going to spend some time looking into something that I'm just curious about. And like by doing that, it will build a habit. And then you'll just start to seek those things more often and ask more questions about things. But by exploring more things, you can find, like what does resonate with you, but you can also develop that passion, I think, and probably like the reason like I like certain areas is like for me, I think I love the environment, because I grew up loving animals, right. And I loved exploring nature. And I spent a lot of time in nature. And because of that, I think that translates into me being really frustrated when I found out that climate change was a thing. And all these things were happening to ecosystems, animals that I cared about, I got really upset about it. And I was like, I need to do something because I don't want that to happen. So I think you develop a passion based off of the things you're exposed to. And if you're not exposed to something, then you might not even know that exists. And that's the thing that you could be really excited about. So it's all about like, gaining exposure to more things. And you can do that by being curious. And asking questions. And also trying things experiences help you a lot with that, too. So you can exceed as many experiences as you can to try things that you might not have, or that are of interest to you, and you just like keep putting off. And I think it starts with even again, like that 10 minutes a day. I mean, I'll let myself look for something I'm curious about. And that's building the habit from like us, kind of like untrain our curiosity as we go through school a little bit more. Podcast Host 23:30 I think a lot of students put this pressure on themselves to quote unquote, find their passion. But they shouldn't be starting with what they're passionate about. If they don't have any passions, that's fine. That's Yeah, totally, totally understandable. Start off with what you're curious about, start off with a an interest explored further, see if it makes sense to you see, if you want to explore it even more. And then like, in six months or years time that can then become a passion. But I want to go into what TK is brought to you as well, because it sounded like you know, your journey from advocacy to action was in large part kind of catalyzed by your exposure of tks to a lot of different ideas and concepts and this kind of stuff. How was that not an intimidating experience for you like when you're 15 or however old? You were not very, not very old. I mean, in your mid teens say? And you're looking at these topics, I think most students would be forgiven for thinking that sounds like a university topic, if not further down the track even so how do you kind of say, yeah, I'm excited about all these cool things. 24:34 It's daunting in many ways when you think about it, for me, like I was, I think it was just because I was more excited about it at first and then then like nervous about how scary it was. I was just excited that I would have the ability to even learn about them in the first place. So for me, and honestly, I was worried I won't even get in. I was like, this is like this sounds crazy. But think about artificial intelligence. I remember I met the first cohort of kids at an event spontaneously and that's kind of like one of my first exposures to them. They're telling me they have LinkedIn profiles and all these things. And I didn't know what that meant. But it sounded really cool. But it also sounded really scary to be honest as well, you're right. But I was also just so overwhelmed with excitement, because to me, that was something I was interested in. I was like, you know, I want to make an impact. I knew that. And this sounded like kind of the pathway to do so. So I just wanted to figure out how I could get in or get involved in any way that I could. And then I applied it, and I did get it, which was so exciting. I was really excited. And I think that's what daddy need not be so scared about it. But yeah, they are really daunting topics. I know some people are just, like, probably more scared than maybe I was coming into it. But for me, I think a lot of it was the way they framed it, like teaching us all these skills and also chasing us like how do you learn on your own the skill of learning how to learn what you think you learned in school, but we don't technically we learn how to you regurgitate. What we should learn is how do you learn because if you know how to learn, you can figure out anything on your own, I could spend my time at home, diving deep into a brand new topic because I know skills on how I can start seeking this information and things like that. And that made me feel like it wasn't as daunting. And I think it's because the way that they phrase things and the way that they broke things down like digestive Lee to us. Podcast Host 26:11 Yeah, I think that's such an important thing. Actually, I was commenting on a, there was a Harvard program recently started by some students at Harvard, it was like students kind of making the future of school. And I said, one thing that schools should be doing is rewarding students for self learning, they should be kind of instead of saying you just have to stick to the curriculum, and then perform the exam, there should be something or students have the ability to learn something on their own presented, just different students teach different students if that's what they want to do, and then get graded on that potentially, like graded on how they put a curriculum or a topic together. Because I feel like self learning is going to be such a feature of the future of work, like you can't just learn one degree and then be fine for the next 20 years. Like you're going to need to constantly upskill but you've you've obviously gone from the advocacy to action. And I know you're still doing the advocacy part, which as you said is very, very important. But I'd love to talk a little bit about the action side of things and your organization's. So how many different things have you started? And what are they about? 27:11 I don't even know how many spin offs but I will tell you some of the key things because a lot of us iteration. And that's like a big theme I want to have, as I talked about this, too, you know, wrong, we're figuring things out, it's okay to iterate and figure out what you're passionate about and learn how to frame these things as part of it. Like for me, I'm technically still in my training stages. And I'm moving more into like the building stages of like things will actually start building soon hatchway. But a lot of it like for me is training right now. So just training, research and starting these different things, which is great that I have the opportunity to start young. But for me like some of the things, if you like looked at my website and stuff that are like key organizations, there's this teacher shot factory now, that started last December. And it was kind of a conversation that me and my friends had, where we were both really interested in social impact, specifically, like the policy side, so like SDG goals, the Sustainable Development Goals, and from the UN. And we think they're so awesome. But we have less than nine years now is like 10 years, then to actually hit these metrics. And we didn't see a ton of ton of action, tangibly just more talk about it. And like roadmaps. So we were like, We want to see more of this. So we create a future shot around the idea of moonshots. And then shots are like big ideas, like when went to the moon, for example. And this was all about thinking about these StG goals as these are moonshots for our future. And we only have nine years left to achieve them. So we got to start doing more. So we were hoping our organization would be able to help foster more people to start working on this work on some of our own projects, and the SDG goals, specifically partnering with companies or consulting. So either one of those was kind of the model we're going with and one that we stuck with. And also we want to inspire youth specifically, to feel like they're able to make an impact. And they're not too young, and even, like teach them tools that they can use and things like that. So a lot of it's evolved. And that's like a big theme I find with any project, so it's okay that it will evolve. I was reading some some yc resources recently. And and a big thing I found from those two, from all these, like founders who started these, like awesome startups is this, you don't need to have a great idea at first, it can be a good idea. What matters more is like the problem that you want to solve. really understanding that and being okay with the idea iterating because it will, like so many companies started off as one thing. And now they're like Amazon, right? Like it didn't start off at the same place that it is today. And that's totally okay. feature shot is something we're going to be iterating a lot. We're doing a new launch in January actually just kind of like solidifying more like the stuff we're doing, our new website will be going up and stuff like that. But essentially what we do is again, we partner with companies to work on SDG goals. So some of our partners are UN Women, IBM, and we're working on just main areas. And I think these are going to be like that what focus is we have since we can't work on every single one, but we want to inspire more people to be able to work on some of those other ones. But for us, it's climate action, health, education and equality, specifically gender equality has been what we've been focused on. But that's what future shot was all about. Another big one that came out this year, we do this moonshot company hackathon. You come up with kind of a crazy idea for the future that isn't possible yet, but the technology could work. So my friend nyla, and I, we were really interested in this whole problem with the food industry. Because the food industry, one of the biggest contributors to global warming, a big emphasis right now in the space is cellular agriculture, which is really cool. It's essentially lab grown meat. That's kind of like a solution to that. So definitely look into that, if you're interested. Interesting. Want to see what is another perspective we could take from it. I've been really interested in insect agriculture for a while. So we ended up going with that as like our main focus. Cardboard means carbon neutral carbon carnivores essentially. So you can still have protein from crickets or other insects, but it's more sustainable. We farmed, essentially. And that's what we went with for a while. So we started off like our website and all these different things as part of the hackathon. And we won the, the branding award for that. So the branding around like, you know, the cardboard, everything is really just cool. But we decided we wanted to pursue it more, because it is something that's not too far off. In second culture, people eat insects all around the world. Yes, I'm in different countries, just in North America, specifically, I don't know what it's like in Australia. But people have like this, like taboo thing about it here where it's gross to eat insects, I actually only got I have some very, I have cricket bars and stuff. They're so good. They taste really good, to be honest. So I have so many reasons why we should eat insects, in my opinion, but the whole thing kind of turned into a research project. And now we thought we might scale it into like a little startup where we can make inset projects. But instead, we just decided that we're doing a research project. And we're still working on it. Now. We got a grant from the Government of Canada, which was kind of cool, where we can order some insect products so that we can mess around with like different recipes of like, how can we make bug burgers and things like that? So that's when it's turned into. And we're still working on that now, which is kind of cool. Podcast Host 31:44 So cowboy, and future shot, like your two main things at the moment. So yeah, like I would love to kind of go to explore future shot a little bit more as to why did you formalize the organization as future shot? And what's the importance of having the sustainability development goals as part of your organization's stated purpose? 32:03 No, through the Sustainable Development Goal part, we actually that was kind of like the basis of why we wanted to create it. So that's why it's such a big part of it, we wanted to create it because we didn't see enough action in the StG goals. And we were hoping that we could have like more of a youth led organization that would call for action towards these, but also emphasize the importance of using technology and all these things that we're learning about as tools to do that, as well. And also hand in hand with policy. So these, like different beliefs that we learned about from our journeys. And that seems really important, but we didn't see a lot of, so that's kind of what we wanted to call for. And then from there, like kind of our model of sticking with those StG goals, because that's where it started with and what we wanted to work towards. And also, like, Okay, so we're gonna talk about one point, but depending on moving back a little bit, the Sustainable Development Goals as a whole, like, we thought of them as like moonshots themselves, for humanity, right, the moonshots for a more sustainable future, whether that be in like our health and the quality that we have on our planet, and like the environment aspect to right, even like with the climate change problem, it's the same time essentially, we have like, less than nine years to actually slow global warming aligns really well with the SDGs, before we hit this tipping point, that's really bad. And actually might speed up now, which is a little bit scary, to be honest to me. Yeah. So they were like, really big, like goals that we could kind of move towards as a whole, like our whole planet. So we thought that they're a really good model to just keep sticking with anyways, but just putting more emphasis on the action towards them, and the ways that we can do that. And working with organizations as our model, we thought would be good, because a lot of these big organizations, you know, they talk about it or, or they want to seek ways that they can make an impact as well. But maybe they don't know where to start. So we would reach out to some of them and be like, would you like to work on an SDG related project? Or do you want us to help you learn more about them, things like that. And we got some great responses. And sometimes it starts with just asking and seeing where people need help. And kind of my philosophy towards like reaching out to people and asking, even if you could like partner, or like have a meeting and stuff is what's the downside. And obviously, please be like, polite, please be authentic to it. And all these different things that are really important that I'm hoping they're a little bit more intuitive. But when you're asking if you could have a meeting, or whatever it is you want to do, I think, oftentimes like the way I think about it, people often ask me like how I do it, and don't find it super scary on my friends, you're like, I find it really scary to reach out to people. And I'm like, what's the downside? Because if you don't ask the answer is no. And but if you do ask the answer could still be no, but if you did it, then it would be no, but there could be a yes. If you did ask. So you have more of that probability of there being Yes. Right. So you might as well ask, and IBM could say, No, I don't want to work with you. But they said yes. Which was cool. And if we didn't ask then it would have been no for sure. So let's think about it. And I think it's really awesome that some of them do you want to work on these different problems and support us as well. Podcast Host 34:51 So what happens after you got the yes from IBM, 34:54 we started working on on one of our projects, and it's just kind of like we didn't know how to do a lot of this stuff. First, we were like this, but we want to do, but we don't know how the process will work. And they were like our first formal partnership. I'm so grateful for that. But we were figuring it out. We're like, so to me, should we create proposals should we, like do all these different things, it was kind of just a lot of like a learning experience to this past year. And now like, the past couple of months, we've formalized, like, kind of like our processes towards these things, things you want to carry on and, and we've learned a lot from like, trying it out for the first couple of months. So like having our first meeting, we kind of like, learn the tone of collaborating with them, like, what are they looking for. And then we even like talked about, like, what we're looking for and stuff. And out of that we learned a bunch of structures that could work for us. So like, for example, like something we typically go with as well, we do like a brainstorming like get to know session with the partnership, then we normally end up writing a proposal sending it to them. Sometimes we have another meeting to discuss that and get ideas or they just like it works, because it's something we talked about in that initial meeting, too. And then we do like action plans from there. So how can we actually make it happen and what steps and things we're going to be doing over time, a lot of it was figuring it out. But I think it's really important to train the skill of figuring it out. Because again, that's that, like, lifelong learning piece. Podcast Host 36:06 Absolutely. What I love that idea that you pitch to IBM, they said yes. And you're like, Huh, okay, so what do we do that type of thing, like you're learning about how to interact with these companies. I think that's a really key point that you don't necessarily need to knowing everything about what will happen next. Before you start reaching out, you will learn as you go. And I think a lot of times, you know, my life as well, like, I've stopped myself from doing things. Because I felt like I needed to know everything before I started, where like, you can't know everything before you start, because you will learn as you go. So it's kind of that paralysis by analysis type of thing, right? Where people overthink things, and then don't do anything because they're like, I just don't feel ready yet. Whereas like, he reached out to IBM, and you've been learning along with IBM, as to how to write proposals, and you know, the way that they want to conduct the relationship. Can I just ask how did you set that partnership up initially? Was it like a cold email to the IBM info line? Or, like, were you introduce to someone, how did you get started there, 37:09 a lot of partnerships were different. But for this one, it was having a connection through LinkedIn, and then asking Hey, to our connection, if we could have a meeting with them. And that's how this one started. And a lot of it again, is like having that network starting to build it now. Or like, you know, getting involved in an organization. So you get to know different people. And from there, you know, that can stem to something in the future, as well. And one thing I like to note too, is like, please don't be transactional. I know that can sometimes happen as like you're trading these things, but build these relationships, because you see how important it can be to build relationships, but also value them and what you can learn from out of having relationships as well and see what you can bring to like different teams that you want to work with as well. And I also wanted to add on, I love the point you had about like, you know, like you don't feel ready yet. I think that's like a big theme, especially with like, three is wanting to make action today, you're not never feel ready to do something, in my opinion, I think he's in that when you don't feel ready, sometimes you have to push yourself to do it. That's kind of like the whole like even seeking discomfort thing. I normally use it unless it's like something super risky. But if I don't want to do something like I don't want to speak at this conference, because I am scared like I want to back out of it. And then I'm like, that's a trigger that I should probably do it. Because it will help me a lot. If I tell myself, Oh, I'm really scared, I probably need to do this. So I can start training getting better at this or even like, knowing how to talk on podcast is scary to like, I still get so nervous before, like this, I was like, Oh, I'm nervous. But you have to do like your first couple of like, articles, whatever thing that you're working on in order to feel comfortable with it and start building it and you're never gonna feel ready at first, you just have to push yourself to take that first step. And it's okay to also not do it perfect at first, you're not going to show you know that and also not like, do it all at once the like with that thing I was talking about with curiosity earlier, I think oftentimes, we don't do things because we're like, I don't have four hours to spend like diving into this thing today. So I'm not going to do it. I'll do wait till I have a lot of time one day, but then can be like I do have 10 minutes every day. So why don't you just spend 10 minutes doing it every day like in small chunks. It doesn't need to be I have all the time now. And because I don't mean to push it off. Think about how can I make it possible to start? Podcast Host 39:11 Right? But what would be your advice for students who want to start learning a new skill who perhaps have never really gone above and beyond school to learn something on their own? I mean, you have by the sounds of things started to develop at least and it's an ongoing skill in and of itself, how to learn, right? When you don't necessarily have a teacher they're guiding you. So how do you approach it and what do you look for in resources? And how do you process that new information? 39:37 There's so many different things I get a lot of it will be figuring it out as you do it, which is something you'll also be training but I kind of like as a starting place when it when I'm trying to like understand something. So say I'm trying to learn genetic engineering for the first time. I think I normally go with just googling what is genetic engineering and it's so simple, but you watch a five minute video just hit the LIKE THE really simple like Justin And then from there, if there was like some concepts you didn't understand stuff, write those down and like start looking into those all individually when you have like the different pockets of time to do so. And then from there looking into different research papers and things, again, depends on the subject, but you could start seeing what are some new research papers that are coming up, try Google Scholar for that. And when you read your first research paper is gonna be so scary totally is you're not going to understand what this said, it's probably going to be like reading a different language and be like, What are all these strange words, about machine learning about genetics? What is this gene I don't understand. And like, highlight all the words you understand, because you're not going to understand most of it. But then every time you search one of the words, to try to understand this first paper, you're gonna learn a ton. And then as you keep reading a new paper, it's gonna be easier each time. And that's how you slowly kind of become more in depth with your knowledge in that area. And then it will lead you to do things or you'll find something interesting about one area and you'd be like, I want to learn more about specifically plant genetics, or I want to learn more about this health genetics for this application that will lead you down different trails to keep learning. And you just got to be like resourceful to thinking about where can I find more resources? Can I find some slack groups, but I think just start from the basics, if you can read some research papers, basic articles, just to get the gist of it. And then where you don't understand, try to bridge those knowledge gaps. And that will help what you have all the same resources that Elon Musk does on the internet, pretty much. Right? So there's so much there. I mean, it's hard to filter through all of it. But there's lots of great courses there, too. Like you could look up great machine learning courses. There's some great ones on Udacity for specific things to do self driving cars, or all these different like course platforms, right? Like Coursera and Udemy, Skillshare. Right. So whatever you want to learn, there's probably something out there that could help you. Podcast Host 41:36 I think you know that self learning is a journey that students should really start experiencing now. And then who knows, they might end up becoming an advocate once they learn a certain amount, and then they can start taking action based on their advocacy and continue to 41:49 be an advocate. Like if that's the thing that really drives you, and you're really good at it stick with it, too. But if you love problem solving, why'd you go with that as well? I think we need this like, whole like breadth of different changemakers. So that's really important to remember, too. Podcast Host 42:02 Yes, I can tell that you don't like me saying that actions better than advocacy. 42:07 I know I said it a lot before I've said it, like in the past a lot. And then I learned over time that like, you know, I think you need so many different kinds of changemakers and people to collaborate on things. It's not just one area. And I think advocacy without any action isn't good. That's something I believe to be true. But I think we need advocates. And we need action takers in different fields and stuff. It's not just one focus area. And I think we oftentimes forget that I forgot it a lot before. Podcast Host 42:34 Now you've kind of come full circle. And you're back to focusing on advocacy, or at least making that a part of who you are not just someone who's taking action all the time. But someone who's like sees advocacy as a really vital part of what it is you do. Yeah, final questions for you. adara, what is a failure that you're most proud of? 42:54 And I used to be so scared of doing presentations. And again, it's one of those things where if you don't force yourself to do it, then you obviously won't get better at it. And I think I can do better presentations. So I still can work on it. But my first technical presentation on genetic engineering was, I think it was about a year ago, it wasn't that long ago, which is, which is weird to say. But I've given presentations before that I gave, you know, presentations in school, it's a specific style. But given these technical presentations is a totally different thing than what you're taught to do in school, to have like this, you know, actually professional looking decks and, and like cohesively talk and not be reading from cue cards and things like that, right. And I was really excited to do it. But I was actually so nervous about it. And I went up there and I had all my content prepared really well. And my deck was nice and everything, I put a lot of effort into it. And then I started talking and did my first couple of sentences. I was shaking so much I paused for probably, I think it was like 20 seconds. And I forgot what I was saying. I was like, oh, like I just forgot what I was saying completely. A lot of feedback I got was you lips, so you look so nervous. And like watching that video over again. I was like shaking. I know, like some people's first presentation, it was pretty, pretty solid. But I was anxious. And the biggest piece I got from one of my mentors, he gave me some there was it's not even just sometimes about good content in preparing for the presentation. Some of the preparation is also mindset. And I didn't think about that I was just like, I'm gonna go make myself do it. I'm excited, this will be good. But I was so nervous. I just kept telling myself to ignore that. And he's like, it's so important to also prepare your mindset for all these different things to like, instead of just practicing everything and making the perfect content, take five minutes to figure out how can you get yourself in the zone and tell yourself that you can do this presentation or maybe do a five minute meditation or something. I never thought about that before but it's been a big learning for me. Now I try to always make sure that I am the right mental space to like give a presentation and not like get so nervous about it. Podcast Host 44:50 A great moment to learn from right and Yeah, I think so many of those early stage taking the labor, particularly when you're a student and particularly when you're a teenager is having that mindset declined to give you the confidence to kind of take that leap. And to get up on stage or to do whatever you want to do. So if students wanted to connect with you, what would be the best way to do it Twitter or LinkedIn, 45:10 maybe email me at astronautadara@gmail.com is a good one. But also connect with me on LinkedIn. It's just I don't respond, I think as often I'd like to also check it. And then Twitter, I love using Twitter. It's one of my favorites. But I mean, I think I respond quite quickly on Twitter. But I just don't get a lot of messages there sometimes. So yeah, but I love Twitter so much, definitely connect with me there. Podcast Host 45:34 So you're 17 you're finishing school soon, what happens next? 45:40 I don't know what the future holds. But I think the best way to predict the future is to create it. So thinking about the things that I'd like to do, and trying to go towards those things, and also being okay with it not being exactly that because I know that will change. So for me some of those things, like as a whole, you know, I'm really interested in creating sustainable cities, space on Earth, all those areas are really interesting to me. So, you know, working within those areas, I've been building my breath in different areas of this kind of like sustainability by focused on carbon sequestration on future food for a while, right now, I'm actually learning a lot about the energy space, because I want to understand as many of these areas water, food energy, that go into creating a sustainable system, so they can kind of help me in doing that in the future. And I'm also doing things like 3d modeling and, and learning more design things too. So I can design sustainable cities, which is what I would love to do. Podcast Host 46:30 Well, whatever the future holds, I'm sure that you will approach it with a very full toolkit of amazing skills and experiences and all these different ideas, which I think puts you in a fantastic position to take advantage of any opportunity that comes your way. Right. And yeah, I hope some of our listeners connect with you and follow along with your journey as you go to building future cities or to space or to doing other amazing things, whatever that may be. 46:56 Thank you so much for having me and please feel free to connect whenever. Podcast Host 46:59 Thanks for listening to top of the class. subscribe for future episodes, for show notes and to plan your best future head to Crimson education.org

Ep #25 Winning a Child Genius Show and Study Tips Worth Remembering!

🗓 JAN 9, 2021

See transcript

Outro 00:49 Hi, Mahesh. Welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Mahesh 00:56 My name is Mahesh. I'm 14 years old and I'm most well known for winning the second season of SBS Australia's Child Genius in 2019. I am from the north of Sri Lanka. That's where my parents are from and they migrated here in 2004 a couple years before I was born. Podcast Host 01:14 Fantastic. and talk to us a little bit about what exactly SBS Australia's Child Genius is like, for those people who haven't seen the competition, we've got listeners from all around the world. Can you explain a little bit for us? Mahesh 01:26 SBS Australia's child genius was essentially it's a show, 16 children are selected from a process that starts at about 1000. And it's basically children go through four days of competition to determine a winner. And there's different rounds in different subjects such as spelling, mathematics. And everyday there's also a memory and recall round, such as after the math round. On day two, we had to memorize a randomly shuffled deck of playing cards, Podcast Host 01:56 Right? But take me back to when you first entered the competition, like what made you want to be a part of this TV show? Mahesh 02:02 Well, my parents and I, we watched the first season in late 2019. And we we found it quite interesting. And we thought of it as a possible opportunity, but then sort of forgot about it. And then we read in the men's magazine, Australian men's magazine that auditions were going to be open. And we had a little chat with my parents. And I was sort of very apprehensive about entering because I thought I wasn't at the requisite level to enter in the show, let alone win. And so I was quite sort of what Yeah, I was really apprehensive about it. And I was not very keen on going. But my dad thought, you know, if he doesn't make it, it's not the end of the world. We'll just give it a shot. And so we we ended up flying out to Sydney for the auditions in March 2019, where there were about 900 people. And then that was eventually through the process of elimination whittled down to 16, who competed in the actual show. Podcast Host 03:02 And so what was the process of elimination? Like, because that's a very fierce competition 900 down to 16. I think you could probably work out the percentages faster than I can. But it's a very, very small amount of students that are actually chosen for the show, how do they get down to that? 16 people. Mahesh 03:18 So it's first like, right here in Melbourne, we did a Skype call with one of the producers who you know, asked me some basic questions just to get an idea of where my strengths are, and a few questions to determine my suitability for competing in terms of actually being on TV, or sort of the psychological side rather than the cognitive side of things. And then once we were told that we had been successful in this way, we're fine out to Sydney based off the written application and the interviews. And then we started taking sort of academic tests to do with, you know, maths, there was a moment there was spelling, and there was a science component. And these were, you know, just like standardized school tests, which were basically again to ascertain our ability and sort of pressurized situation. Then we also had interviews with the psychologists that SPS had hired for the purpose of child genius, and they took detailed notes on how will this student react to being on camera, and we sort of had little practice interviews. So 400 became 150, who are invited to the second day of auditions, which then became 50, then 25 and 16. Podcast Host 04:32 So what was the general bizarre vibe of that kind of place? 900 talented smart students from I'm going to guess all over Australia and not just Sydney, who have all kind of packed in to try and get on this show. was their match kind of chatting to other students on the day trying to gauge who else might be on the final kind of 16 at the end or were you all just kind of you know, sticking with your parents at the day. Mahesh 04:57 That was a big mix of things, you know, like they were some really great people there. Um, and it, it always feels great when you're talking to people who are have, you know, the same interests and same intellect as you because you, you bond quite quickly. And you know, we were we were chatting to each other about, like some of us had watched the last season. And you know, we were chatting about some of the other people on there and how, you know, one question can completely derail your chances sometimes. And so, you know, it was quite interesting. And there was a mix of people, you know, there were people who were 12 at the time, like me, and they were in the same room as little eight year olds, and they sort of just blew your mind, these little eight year olds are so smart and have such a high level. And yeah, it was, it was a really great experience in terms of the social aspect, because you got to meet new people who, especially with some of the older kids of the other 15, whom I competed with, who had phones and things like that. So we were able to communicate after the short and we maintain those links. Oh, that's awesome. Podcast Host 05:58 What strength did you go in to that show with because you said the producers were asking you about what your strengths were? And like, how did you know what your strengths were going in? Mahesh 06:08 On? Well, I knew that I hadn't been aptitude for memorizing things, because I sort of had this really, really weird talent when I was little where, because I would sit in my high chair, and right in front of it was a calendar. So I would be staring at that all the time. And so I was able to, you know, memorize dates and look at patterns. And if someone asked me, What date will June 26 2014 be like, I was able to tell them within 15 seconds. So that was something that unfortunately, I don't possess anymore. But it was sort of something that really sort of defined me as a person, whenever we saw people, my dad will be like, Oh, my son can do this. And so you know, it was it was quite interesting, because people liked it. Podcast Host 06:54 Certainly an impressive trick. And like, I struggled to figure out five days ahead of me, we know what date it will be. And that kind of thing, if you can figure out what it's going to be four years from now, or I know, used to be able to do that when you were perhaps a little younger. But yeah, the fact that you were able to do it when you were younger is probably even more impressive, to be honest. Mahesh 07:11 Like the way I did it was I sort of used patterns to analyze, like, I thought, you know, today is December the 18th. And it's a Friday. So next year, I know that next year is not a leap year, so it will be a Saturday. Podcast Host 07:24 So then you can just mentally do the math or the arithmetic and work it out pretty quickly. Mahesh 07:29 I knew I knew what the views were. And it was quite simple. And I took a lot of shortcuts to do it. So yeah. Podcast Host 07:35 Okay. And I'm also interested in I guess, how your ideas or understanding of intelligence has changed through this experience, because you came in with a set of skills, and you came in with a set of aptitude. But I'm sure you met a lot of other students through the process, like your friends to the competition, who have different skill sets, different aptitudes, etc. So what do you define? Or how do you understand intelligence? When people speak about, oh, someone's a genius? Like, is it an IQ score? Is it memorization? Is it you know, under pressure, being able to solve things on a TV show? Like, what's your understanding of intelligence? Mahesh 08:15 I think, you know, people who define intelligence purely based off things like an IQ score or test results, it's a bit of a tunnel vision, sort of, because there are other things that determine how well you perform in a certain situation. Obviously, if you are in an exam, how much you know, is an integral part. But as well as that, it's how well you deal with the pressure of being in an exam. And even if, you know, it's the sort of mental images that you have while doing the exam, because if you walk in, and you're like, I'm going to fail this exam, then your mind adjust to that sort of, I'm going to fail, I'm not going to pass. But if you come in with confidence, which is the confidence is aided, if you prepare well, then knowing you prepared well, you feel good about the exam, which then enables you to do well. So even if you know, even if you're not a straight A student, if you if you have those external factors, it can help you do well. So it's not it's not just Nike, yeah. Podcast Host 09:17 Right. Right. You know, it's a good way of thinking about it. And I'm sure like, your understanding of intelligence is changed as a result of the competition as well like saying, people who are really good at X or Y, or Z, or you know, whatever it might be that they've got a really good skill setting, and you're able to appreciate it even though you might not be at their level, you're like, yeah, they're really smart for that particular reason. They're really smart for that particular reason. like everyone's got their own kind of flavor of smart if you know what I mean. Yeah, Mahesh 09:42 and it can also it can depend on prior experiences, like I was good at that dates thing because I stayed in calendars all the time. And people who would have read a lot when they were younger, are naturally better at English and spelling, and things like that, because they've basically grown up around books and words, so You can see like, there was one guy on the shirt he was the name was Justin. I believe he was 10. And he was ridiculously good anagrams and anagrams were, in my opinion, the hardest part of charging is I didn't get a single one, right. And so there were 11 letter words, and he was getting the anagrams within five seconds. He was amazingly good at it. And I asked him and I said, How are you this good at anagrams? Did you just do a lot of practice on these? or What did you do? And he said, I used to read a lot when I was little. And I had a set of jigsaw puzzles with the 26 letters on them. And I would make words and imri, arrange them and make more words and things like that. So there's that kind of experience, which helps you to be better at something in the future. Yeah, Podcast Host 10:43 it's interesting, I think, in terms of that kind of early concept of what makes a genius, right, like when I was in primary school, and I think this might be a situation for you as well, not too long ago, it was about the times table races, and whoever is like dominating the times table races who just cannot be beaten, everyone's like, Oh, my God, who is that kid. And usually like, they've got the times table on the back of the bathroom door, or like back of their bedroom door. And they just say it all the time, they come across it all the time. And as a result, like it's just, you know, the recall is a lot easier for them. But it is interesting, like how a kind of very specific, almost trivial type of skill, like solving anagrams or memorizing a deck, I mean, memorizing a deck of cards is actually pretty impressive. And I'm interested to ask like how your brain processes that kind of information. But it's like a trivial skill down at a really high level can take a student, especially when they're kind of eight to 12 years old, from being just a normal student up to like genius level, because they do it super super well, like 10 times better than any other student. And even if it's like a fairly basic skill, everyone's going to be looking at that student being like, Oh my god, they're a genius, even though they just grew up around that one particular skill. Do you see that that kind of thing is an aspect of child genius, where they might not necessarily be an all rounder, like super smart student, but they've just got a particular skill they're really good at. Mahesh 12:07 I should have mentioned this before, but how other people perceive you can also impact how you perceive yourself. And so if people are walking around looking at you and saying, That kid is a genius, and makes you feel good, and it makes you feel confident. And in this day and age of technology, times, tables and things, it's all about beating everyone at mathletics, and things like that. So Oh, that's what it was when I was in, prep a new one. So you know that that sort of also impacts how you go about things. And even if it's just one skill, that one skill could be anything and everything amazes people. And so, you know, when when people are that sort of all struck by you, it makes you feel good, too. Podcast Host 12:48 Yeah, well, let's get into that whole kind of perception thing, because I'm really interested in that. You've been crowned Australia's child genius. Since that time, how well or not well has that title set with you. Because obviously, like some people might say that that adds pressure, because I saw the trophy that you want, it's half your size, it's massive. So I mean, having that kind of trophy, having that kind of title, it might give you confidence when you go into school, or go into different interactions with different people. But yeah, how was that title set with you over the last year or so? Mahesh 13:19 It gives me a bit of pride to know that people recognize me for that. But on the other end, you know, I don't necessarily approve of the fact that that's all that people know me for. Like, sometimes if I introduce myself to people like, Oh, you want this TV show. And like, there's things there's other things about me, I feel like they see it as the only part of my personality. And that irks me a little bit, but I'm still super happy that they do know that because, you know, it's like odd that they have heard of me, they've watched this show. So it's like, it makes you in that sense, feel good. But you know, I don't necessarily agree with the fact that it should be all people know me for and my friends have been very supportive before as well. So that is also something that I very much appreciate. Like they while it was airing, they were very supportive of me. And one offered to buy my trophy for 100 bucks. So, you know, there's that sort of pay support, which is also great. So there's two sides of the coin. Podcast Host 14:22 Well, I mean, offering to buy the trophy for $400 is a bit of a odd side of the coin, but I guess you know, yeah, it's a pretty impressive trophy. So I don't really blame that friend of yours for wanting to buy it off you do you feel the weight of expectations when you go into an exam or you get up there and you know you're doing times tables in primary school, whatever it might be. Did you feel the weight of expectations that like everyone was trying to beat you? Mahesh is like the child genius. And if you slip like a Mako to everyone be like oh, like Mahesh 14:54 everyone loves a bit of friendly competition. And no one's perfect and being child genius. Doesn't get guarantee that I'm going to ace every exam, or be the darks of my school or things like that. I do feel sometimes that pressure that comes from it, but I try not to let it get to me. Because, obviously, yeah, this is a big achievement. But it's, as I said before, it's not everything about me, I can do other things. And so I try to keep it out of my head, and which is also, you know, something that helped me during the competition, because I was being looked at as one of the top people in that pool of 16. And, you know, I just kept doing my thing and paid off, so you can get into that circle of letting it get to you. And then it sort of makes you crumble a little bit or, you know, you can push it away, and I try my best to keep it out of a shot. Podcast Host 15:46 Well, I think it's really the difference between healthy competition and unhealthy competition. And if students are kind of getting towards that unhealthy competition, where they're getting anxiety around exams, where they're like, feeling like one Mark slipped is like a big issue, then that's starting to get unhealthy. Would you agree with that? Mahesh 16:03 Yeah, I think so you know, that there's a line that needs to be drawn sometimes, like, sometimes, you know, my parents, if I dropped a few marks in an exam, which I know that I shouldn't have, then you know, it's like, it's good. Because I get encouragement from my parents, it's like, you know, I know you can do better not you should be doing better. I know, you can do better that sort of constructive criticism versus not so constructive criticism. And you know, sometimes my friends joke with me like your child Janie's you should be icing it, I take that lightly. And because after all, you know that they're just my peers. They're not like, you know, minority finger or anything. So I enjoy the sort of banter that comes with it. But I agree that there is a line that needs to be drawn, Podcast Host 16:49 I really respect that you have reflected on the title and how you interact with it, right? Like, I feel like it's not a title that's owning you and changing the way you see the world. Like, it's just something that you know, is there and it's kind of ever present. But you don't let it get to you, which I think, yeah, pretty impressive. And it's something that I think a lot of students struggle with early on to kind of have that maturity around a title. Now, you're at a great school here in Australia, and you're also part of the Crimson rise as well. But what do you like to learn? And how do you keep yourself interested and engaged and you know, wanting to learn more. Mahesh 17:28 So I, I do a fair bit of extension I did a lot in primary school, I still do a fair bit here and there. And my secondary school, I think there's also external factors, like, obviously, you can't be doing all work and no play. And I feel like, again, having really great peers around me has helped me to, you know, stay focused, because when I want to, I can relax a little bit, that helps me to stay switched on when I need to, and keeps me motivated to learn. Because I know that whenever I step into a classroom, I've always got great people around me. And so it makes me you know, look forward to going to school and things like that. Podcast Host 18:08 Now, if you had an hours free, or say a day free, and you were in the mood to learn something, what would you spend your day learning? Mahesh 18:16 It's a good question. I've always been interested in making music electronically, using digital audio workstations, things like GarageBand Logic Pro, and I've always enjoyed doing it at school, and I've bought a MIDI keyboard, which I use at home, to make music. And I've always wanted to learn how to really properly do it, like the professional says, probably something that I would go through first. Podcast Host 18:41 Nice. Well, it's interesting, I've come across a lot of students, as a result of being the host of the top of the class podcast, who are doing their own learning in a lot of different areas. hadn't heard that one before. So I think Go for it, you know, like, yeah, it'd be interesting to kind of see where that ends up. And, you know, it's interesting to kind of, I think, apply yourself to research projects and all this other kind of cool extension. So if you are wanting to get out of the school bubble a little bit, where would you go? Would it be Instagram? Would it be going on Google YouTube? Like, if you wanted to learn something that was a bit of left of center and to engage in a different field completely? Where would you go? Mahesh 19:20 If I wanted to learn something for free, obviously, YouTube is the first place you'd go, because there's tons of how to videos on nearly every area. Udemy is good. If you've got a little bit of money to spend. I wanted to take a course in a in a programming language, then I would head straight there. So I wanted to learn all about the aerospace industry in half an hour, then I'm going to YouTube but if I wanted to learn how to program and I bought, then I would go to Udemy. Okay, no, that's Podcast Host 19:50 a good differentiation. I like that. Talk to me about the deck of cards memorization because that seems to be an impressive part of what about what you did on the child genius program. What was the challenge if you could explain it, I mean, sounds pretty obvious memorize a deck of cards. But how did you perform on the program in doing that, and then I think it would be great to kind of learn a little bit about how your brain processes like a lot of information very quickly, and like seeing patterns or whatever you might do. Mahesh 20:17 By that stage of the competition, there were 12 competitors remaining. And we had 45 minutes to memorize a randomly shuffled deck of cards that had been shuffled and then bound with a key chain thing. So basically, you had to memorize those and come out and recite them in front of the host, the two panelists and the crowd. And so I had a very, very, very strange technique to do this, because I knew that I would have 45 minutes, I chose a technique, which was sort of would take more time, like some people, were memorizing them in 10 minutes, and then just practicing practicing practicing for the remaining 35. But, you know, because I knew that I had that time, what I did was, I was an avid FIFA player at the time of the competition. And so I had a bunch of, you know, lineups of different teams memorized. And so I assigned each assigned four teams to each suit. And so what I did from there was I knew their starting lineups, like by heart, and so each card was assigned to assign him so one was the goalkeeper 235 with defenders, six through eight were midfielders nine through the jack were attackers, queen to substitute goalkeeper and kings a head coach. And so I would go through the card, and we had paper to write the notes down. And so I've got one, this is this player from this team. And once I was done with that, I flipped the paper over and start writing a short story based on it would read like commentary by the end of it is this guy passes to this guy. And if it was a goalkeeper coming next then and I had a striker beforehand, I had a little jacket, this guy shoots and scores past him. If that makes sense. Yes. And so I went through this with the full 52 cards, then I would read it through twice. And then I by then I will be able to recite it. And it works for me, I got all 52 cards, and I recited them pretty quickly, one minute and 15 seconds, which is good. Podcast Host 22:16 That is crazy. What an awesome technique a I think that it actually combines a lot of like, I've done some interesting research into memorization and techniques for that bit like that whole kind of story concept, or attaching what is I guess an arbitrary figure, like the jack of spades or whatever, to something that you're more familiar with? Which is exactly what you did? So is this are these like practice skills for you? Did you know that you were going to do that as you came in? Or as the challenge came up? You're like, Okay, I've got to memorize things. What do I know Really? Well, I know FIFA lineups. Mahesh 22:49 Well, in this in the case, specifically of the memorizing cards, I'd seen it happened last year. So I knew, you know, that's a sort of unique thing. They're not going to get rid of that for next year. So when the time came to apply, I knew beforehand that I was going to need to do this. And so I watched three sports, mainly I watch a lot of cricket, basketball and soccer. And the one that stood out and I thought I would be best at was the soccer lineups. And so I went through it with my parents and we we practiced, it must have been about 20 times. And so with that level of practice, you know, I was feeling pretty good heading in. And as I said, a while back, that confidence also plays a part in how you perform. And because I was feeling good about myself, I think that helped me just sort of sit down and I was getting straight into it. Podcast Host 23:40 Yeah. So does that kind of technique of memorization carry over into any other aspects of academia? Like if you're going into an exam? Do you also have FIFA players and lineups on your mind? Or is it just specific to memorizing cards? Mahesh 23:56 I wouldn't use that technique if I needed to memorize things like dates. But because it's a bit long and convoluted, and it was unique to that situation where I knew I would have that time. Unless you already know beforehand. I wouldn't use it because it's it takes too long. It's very unique to that situation. Podcast Host 24:18 But is that how you generally approach learning new things is like, Okay, I've got this new piece of information or I need to be able to reproduce what I'm saying he he then kind of like sifting through what techniques might be best for that given situation? Mahesh 24:34 Yes, sometimes, you know, like in in another round of child genius we were given a table with so it was related to creatures of the ocean. And we had the English name, the scientific name, the depth, they found out that diets their size, their lifespan, and interesting facts about them and where they found in the world. And so that was a giant table of information. for which it was sort of best to split it up. And we again had a lot of notes. So the first sort of step I had was making connections between the English and scientific names, like a sample question might be, provide the scientific name for the great white shark or something like that, like, I might try and make a connection between the English and scientific name, that one will sort of just sit down and memorize it. Like there was no clear cut technique which I use to go with that. Podcast Host 25:31 Right. But I think what I'm saying from you, though, is that when you see a set of information, whether it be cards or deep sea animals, those kinds of things, it's like, how can I make a bit of a pattern out of whatever I'm saying, How can I make this easy for myself? Can I pair things up? Can I, you know, relate it to something I already know. So it's not 100 pieces of information, it's 50 pairs of information. Mahesh 25:52 A sort of good analogy that I sort of just popped into my mind is, when you're using a vacuum cleaner to clean your house, it's not going to pick everything up in one word, which is why you go back to the start and go again. After that, it does pick it up. And it's the same with information. Like when I first got this table of information, I would scan it, and sort of pick up information. Obviously, I can't memorize everything by reading it in one go. And so and I go back and go through it again, and again, and again, and again. And so I would split it up into pages in the same way that you vacuum different rooms at different times. And so that was sort of something that helped me instead of trying to memorize the whole thing in one go, we had one hour for the memory round, and it was 583 pages. So you know, I take about 12 minutes, approximately first six minutes is memorizing everything on that page, then next six minutes is, you know, sort of trying to recite to myself, what's on there? Podcast Host 26:50 Okay, you know, it's interesting techniques. Mahesh 26:52 My techniques are a little unorthodox, but you know, they worked for me, they might not work for everyone, but they helped me a lot. And so it's sort of just from my personal experience. Podcast Host 27:03 Okay, well, let's break it down for perhaps the general audience out there. If there was one or two pieces of advice that you would give for students to approach memorization as a technique, or kind of like figuring out what works best for them. What advice would you give? Mahesh 27:18 I think the best advice I can give them is, don't dismiss anything as that's not gonna work for me always give it a shot, no matter how weird or wacky it is. Because that FIFA technique which I use for cards, it was idea that came from my dad, he said, Is there anything you're interested in that you can link to these cards? And I said, I like I like playing FIFA. And he said, What have you thinking, and then I came up with this lineup idea. And I thought it was really weird. But then when I tried it, it works really well. And so don't be quick to dismiss anything. Or I guess don't judge the book by its cover. Yeah, just give everything a shot. And it also depends on the situation. If you're getting something a couple of weeks before the exam, try the sort of vacuum cleaner thing, study one day, take as much as you can, then test yourself on what you've attended taking the previous day, and then fill in those gaps. I hope that makes sense. Podcast Host 28:11 Yeah, no, it does. I think it makes even more sense. When I think back to the exams that I did in the past. I don't do any exams these days, luckily. But you know, when I was going through exams, I didn't really have any techniques. I was just kind of like studying my notes. And I think it was kind of haphazard as to what I would remember. And what I would forget. However, seeing it one of the guys when we're doing Australian history exam. It's pretty funny. We're walking into the exam. And he was so nervous. He was sweating heaps, and he had written quotes down on the palm of his hand because he couldn't remember them. And his hand was all sweaty. So they're all smudging. And I'm like, bro, you did not prepare too Well, did you hear? And he was like, dude, I'm so stressed. I hate this. So it's like that exam anxiety. And I think, I think if you can say to yourself, honestly, that you prepared and planned for the exam and you had certain techniques in preparation, it will just give you so much more confidence going in, right? Like, you must go into an exam pretty confident, because you have been applying techniques to the way you study, not just putting in hours into study. And I think that's a quite a big difference when you think about it. Like it's studying smarter. Everyone says, you know, you got to study smart. And I think one of the things that you must be able to do by now is definitely study smart. Mahesh 29:28 Yeah, like work smart. Not hard. Yeah, it's at the end of the day, everyone has their own preferences, things work for people that might not work for other people. You know, someone after listening to this might throw out a deck of cards and try the FIFA method, but it might not work. You need to build up a healthy fear for addiction to get to get to that point. So it's unique to everyone. But again, like don't dismiss anything as too weird or too wacky because there is no technique which is completely useless to the situation. Podcast Host 30:00 Fantastic. Just a few more questions for you, Mahesh, what's your mentor group or what's your, they say you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And people who are encouraging you, you mentioned your friends have been fantastic support. But I'm going to guess your parents have also been a great support sounds like your dad's been really integral to kind of helping you develop, but then there's the young Mensa community, you've got your friends now that you've met through the child genius program. So I guess who these days do you see is like your core group that helps you to keep pushing along and doing great things. Mahesh 30:32 Obviously, you know, the most integral people to that are my, all my family, my parents, obviously, they're responsible for who I am, like the 50% of who I am today is that and they made decisions when raising me which have come out to be the right decision. So obviously, I would like to them and what they've done for me and the sacrifices they made, you know, fleeing a war in Sri Lanka to come to come here so that I can have a better life is something that I don't take take for granted. Because it's allowed me to have a much better education and set myself up much better for the future. And then after that, you know, is my friends, they were like a great support for me, you know, the very few who knew that I was doing child genius. And then by the time it was airing, you know, everyone knew the sort of the banter and jokes about it has been, you know, it's been good. And I also, you know, sort of indebted to them for the support that they've given me throughout this time. And then I've got a 10 year old little brother, who made a fleeting 32nd appearance on child genius, which he was very proud of. And he's also, you know, an integral part because, as opposed to if I was an only child, the personality changes a lot. And so he's been there for me a lot as well, which is really great. Podcast Host 31:52 And then what kind of role does young mentor typically play? Because I know there's a lot of students out there who probably know of mentor but might not know that there is a young mentor community. But would you recommend pretty highly intelligent students to look into joining something like young Mensa? Mahesh 32:08 Yes, 100%, they've No, I don't always get the chance to go to their events, because I've got a pretty busy schedule, but they're a really great opportunity for everyone to connect with other people who have the same level as you. And that's something that shouldn't be taken lightly. And, you know, it's, it's like joining young Mensa, obviously, there is a requisite level. But even if you don't feel like you're at that level, just give it a shot. Because, you know, I I didn't think that I was at the requisite level for child genius, but look where I am now. So it's a really great opportunity and do not pass up on it. Podcast Host 32:47 Good recommendation, I think it is a fantastic organization to be a part of like international organization of smart people work. Why would you miss out on that? Right? And that's a pretty, pretty key way of summing it up. And what's next for you? So you just wrapped up your aid? What do you see you kind of progressing through school? And potentially, if you had a crystal ball, what would you want to do after school as well? Mahesh 33:11 Well, obviously, the aim is I would like to get into a top American University be that, you know, some, like one of the Ivy League universities or MIT, Stanford, etc. And that's sort of like the ultimate dream. And I'm hoping that at least as a nation, America is a bit more stable by then. But that's the ultimate dream. And I've seen people in my family and my parents, friends, they've dreamt it, and I've done it. So it's, I'll always look at that as something that I'd like to do. And then after that, I'd love to work at one of the big tech companies like Facebook, Google, Microsoft, or Apple, because Google CEO, being from a community that speaks the same language as me is a role model to me. And I look up to him because he grew up in India, in South India, in a middle class family in this, you know, apartment in Chennai. And so the way that he's able to been able to drag himself up from that is really inspiring. And he's sort of the reason why I like to go to America study work. Podcast Host 34:20 Yeah. Actually visited Stanford in January. I don't know if you've ever been to the end of the US campuses, but did a tour there. And I visited Brown, Harvard, MIT, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Stanford, UCLA, UCSD and UC Berkeley as well. It was a very busy two weeks for me when I was going over there, I had no kind of conceptions as to which university I would really love. And you know, I'm not going to go to university again anytime soon. But it was the NYU campus and I was like, Oh, this really feels like home for me. Whereas the other students who I was taking on the tour, they all felt like they would fall in love with Harvard, but a lot of them were Like, oh, Brown University is amazing, or UC Berkeley was the one for me type of thing. You know, like every student felt a connection to a different campus, depending on the field, and depending on the location, the vibe, and it was at a time when like, there was not really many students on campus, but we're actually meeting students who were kind of on holidays, and they were coming on campus just to show us around. But it's really interesting to kind of get a different vibe, just by being on campus and feeling do I belong here? Or do I not, but it was really interesting. So if you said right now, which University you'd like to be at most? Mahesh 35:32 Well, Harvard's the ultimate dream. I think that's always it's always been that way. Because Harvard is the most famous sort of American University. When when someone says American University, you think immediately Harvard, but we'll have to see what happens with that. Podcast Host 35:49 And if students wanted to get in touch with you, how would they do that? Mahesh 35:51 I have an Instagram, which will probably be in the description of the podcast, and you can get in touch with me, I'll respond as quickly as I can I check in quite frequently. So yeah, feel free, Podcast Host 36:02 Awesome well Mahesh, it's been awesome to chat with you. It's been so good to hear about your techniques for memorization, to get rid of an insight into what it was like being on child genius. And to get a bit of a prediction about where we might find you in a couple years time. wishing you all the best, and I look forward to following your journey on Instagram. Mahesh 36:19 All right. Thank you, Alex. Podcast Host 36:20 Cheers Mahesh. Thanks for listening to Top of the Class. subscribe for future episodes. For show notes and to plan your best future head to crimsoneducation.org

Ep #24 TIME's Kid of the Year, Gitanjali Rao, on Science, Education and a Problem Solving Mindset

🗓 JAN 6, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and in this episode, I chat with none other than the first ever TIME Magazine Kid of the Year, Gitanjali Rao. Out of 5000 amazing young people, Gitanjali was judged to be Kid of the Year for her STEM innovations, community focused apps and efforts to inspire others. We chat about how she approaches global problems, her views on how education needs to change and what she hopes to do after school. Let's chat with Gitanjali Rao. Hello, good afternoon, Gitanjali. Gitanjali Rao 00:48 Hi, thank you for having me. Podcast Host 00:50 Oh, no, it's my pleasure to have you here and be on the Top of the Class podcast. I'm going to guess this isn't your first podcast recording? Gitanjali Rao 00:57 It is not, no. Podcast Host 00:58 Well, is it your first interview with an Australian though? Gitanjali Rao 01:01 It is actually yeah. Podcast Host 01:03 There you go, first one, fantastic. Well, I feel like I know a fair bit about your story already. Given that there is quite a lot of interviews out there. I'm looking forward to chatting and hearing more about everything that you've done. And obviously like, congratulations on being TIME Magazine Kid of the Year. That was a really nice photoshoot that they did for you. Gitanjali Rao 01:21 Yeah, it was actually a five hour photo shoot before I even knew I was Kid of the Year. So I was like, 'Why are there 25 people here? And why is the photoshoot five hours?', but there was a good reason. And it was worth it at the end. Podcast Host 01:34 Yeah, absolutely. Well, we can get into it then if that's okay. Gitanjali Rao 01:38 Yeah, absolutely. Podcast Host 01:39 Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Gitanjali Rao 01:41 First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm Gitanjali Rao, I am 15 years old. And I'm an author, innovator and promoter of STEM. So I essentially use science and technology as a catalyst for social change. But recently, a lot of my work has also moved to global outreach. So helping other youth and students just like me understand, you know, their inner passion for innovation and making a difference in society. Podcast Host 02:03 An author, innovator and promoter of STEM. When did you settle on that title? Gitanjali Rao 02:08 I guess, like literally like a week ago, because everything is constantly changing. So, um, yeah, that's my title now, I guess. Podcast Host 02:18 Yeah, it's a great way to think of yourself. And I guess it gives you that breadth and flexibility to do what you want to do and explore a whole lot of different areas, because I know there's a lot of different strings to your bow that you've developed apps, and you have developed technology, Tethys, as well. And you have written a book, and now you're learning to fly as I saw by your Twitter feed yesterday. So there's a lot of different things going on. Is there a story perhaps that encapsulates your love of science? Like if you were to go back through your, you know, how Gitanjali found her love of STEM, what would be the one story that comes to mind? Gitanjali Rao 02:53 I guess it would be a combination of a lot of different things. But if I had to stick with one, it would actually be my uncle got me to science kit. When I was four years old, I actually asked for like a Barbie dream house, which I didn't end up getting. It honestly changed my life forever and projected that I realized that the, I guess the way science can be incorporated in the world around me. And even though it was like, how can you make a volcano out of baking soda and vinegar, it still kind of gave me that, you know, an idea of what science is and how it can be used to solve real problems. Podcast Host 03:25 And you are solving real problems, which I'm excited to chat to you about. But before we get to those real problems, I think that there's a lot of interesting skill sets that you have, and a lot of interesting knowledge that you already have. What do you see as being some of the most important things that you now know, that helps you to become a promoter and innovator, and advocate of STEM? So there's obviously coding, I'm going to guess you know that because you do some app development. There's like how carbon nanotubes bond to fluoride and lead and all those kinds of things as well. So yes, I've done a little bit of research about what you do, which is awesome. But yeah, is there any particular kind of body of knowledge or skill set that you think has enabled you to step forward and become like such a great innovator in STEM? Gitanjali Rao 04:06 Yeah, I think honestly, beyond all the technology skills that I've kind of personally developed over the years, it's also a strong sense of community and realizing the reason for innovation and the reasons behind innovating and coming up with ideas. Like obviously, there is an aspect to, you know, creating a device or coding something. But I think beyond that, it's more important to understand how coding something can lead to an impact on the world. So most of all, it's just my curiosity and being aware of what's going on around me because I can fully tell you that you can create an idea without knowing how to code or without knowing complicated cam concepts. But I think the more important thing is developing a curious skill set in which you can, you know, continue to maintain your passion, just the power that you put in everything you do. Podcast Host 04:52 Yeah. Which is an interesting point I was going to ask you about whether you think it's mindset or skill set that enables you to do what you do. I think a lot of people kind of look at your story and say, Oh, she's a genius and kind of dismiss it as like you being a freak of nature type of thing, when in actual fact, it's probably due to more of like a mindset and how you see the world. So how you look at a problem like say contaminated water in Flint, Michigan, and look at yourself and think that you are the best person and well placed to make a difference in this problem, right? A lot of students will look at this problem and be like, that is beyond me. You know, there's people working in government, there's people working in private companies, etc, who are working on this problem. How does like a 12 or 13 year old Gitanjali Rao help in this situation? But you did. And you created Tethys, which is awesome. So what was your mindset at that time that enabled you to think that you were able to help in that situation? Gitanjali Rao 05:45 Yeah, I think beyond anything, it was the idea of like, going into some sort of problem like this. It's basically like you were talking about that mindset of looking at the world in a different perspective than you normally would. Like, it's easy to just let the news play in the background. But I think it's another thing to try and pick up what's going on in society. So like, I heard about the water crisis in Flint, and it honestly kept me up. I think, just like knowing how many people were affected by that problem. And when something is that has an impact on your life more than anything, if no one else is going to do it, I realized that I needed to do something. And that didn't have to be through an innovative approach. It could have been through activism through raising my voice through other people to make it happen. But I chose to go that path. And I think that's the mindset you need to keep in mind when innovating and coming up with ideas or when even identifying a problem. It's the idea that what if I look at this from a different perspective, what if I pick it up, as you know, something that I can do instead of waiting for someone else to do it? Podcast Host 06:45 Well, I am interested in your quote, actually, which we could probably bring back to this Tethys project that you worked on, which was and I got quoted a fair bit after your interview with Angelina Jolie, which was observe, brainstorm, research, building communicate, as like your process in how you approach these problems. And I think it's a really good way of thinking about things. And for students who are listening to the podcast, I think this is a really interesting way that you see a problem and you don't look at the entirety of the problem, you break it down into these steps. So can you perhaps take those steps and apply it to a project that you've done? It could be Tetris, but actually take us through, like, what was it that you observed? How did you brainstorm How did you razors? How did you build and how you communicate? understanding that this could be a long answer? Gitanjali Rao 07:30 Yeah, so the idea of this whole process is actually something I developed, just by doing it over and over again. So the whole concept of observe, brainstorm, research, build, communicate, it's always been this thing that I have, you know, stuck with, and I didn't know it at the time. But now I've basically been able to flesh it out into words. And I think that's the really exciting portion of it is, this is something that I have used, but more importantly, anyone can use. So this whole concept of this process that I've created, essentially just a prescriptive process towards innovation, it's my take on it. And I think that's really what differentiates it from our guests. Let's see what have we learned until the scientific process like the scientific method, it's like, come up with a hypothesis, test out your hypothesis, analyze your data and come up with a conclusion. If it doesn't work, do it again. And that's obviously so straightforward. And then we have the engineering design process, which is fairly similar, but it's more of like, I need to basically build something. And if that building thing doesn't work, then I need to tear it down and build it again. So the thing about innovation is it can really be taken in your own way, you can make innovation, whatever you want it to be. And that's really why I stuck with it. Knowing that I wouldn't get bored of it because of the different ways that I can innovate. So an innovation can take anywhere from what two days to three years, it just depends on how you want to spend your time and how you want to work your way through the process. So this process essentially just came about, by me doing it over and over and over again. And now I'm basically just sharing what worked for me with so many other people around the world. Podcast Host 09:08 Well, it's good that you are sharing these lessons with a lot of other people. And I know that you've been a TED speaker and a lot of other things getting on the stage quite a lot and sharing your message. When you do get up on a stage. What do you think students? Like if you're talking to a high school audience? What do you want them to take away from your talks? Gitanjali Rao 09:25 Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, anyone can do it. Yeah, I see that all the time. And people don't believe it. Like you were talking about how a lot of people think I was born like a freak of nature. And it's, I guarantee you I was not I like was basically like, I still am like every other kid out there. I just basically take that energy and passion that I have for the things I love to do and put it into the real world. And if you're doing great things for the world, that's all that matters. All this recognition. While it is fantastic for my own motivation, it's almost like a side effect that happens. And I think that that's what everyone needs to understand is that if you are doing great things in the world, if you are putting in the effort to do what you love, the secondary things will come automatically. Like my dad actually recently told me that, like, we were talking about it, we're like, oh, if this hadn't happened, this wouldn't have happened. Like, if I didn't win Kid of the Year, then I probably wouldn't be doing all these interviews now. And I think we both have to take a second and reflect and be like, well, if someone is doing real world, or real work for the world, they will be recognized in some sort of manner. And I think that that's just what I want to put out there to everyone. And hopefully, that's what people take away from my talks is if I can do it, and you can do it, anyone can do it. And I said that to Angelina... Jolie. I can't be on first name basis. That's so weird for me. But no, yeah, I did tell her that. And I think she felt moved by it. Because it's so true. Like, I'm basically just a kid doing what she loves. And I think it's so important to put it out there that I no, by all means am not a freak of nature. I am just a kid, like anyone else out there doing what, you know, creating an impact for the world. Podcast Host 11:06 Yeah, that's a really great way of thinking about it. And I love that response. I have been thinking about that quote, though, in that mindset of if I can do it, anyone can do it. And my challenge to that one is then what is stopping a whole legion of Gitanjali Raos, you know, young innovators, etc. coming out into the world, I know, there's like, I mean, through just the Top of the Class podcast, I've met some amazing people. And I challenge anyone to have a more inspiring follow list on Twitter than I do. But it's interesting to kind of think if there's, you know, any kind of barrier or limitation that students are potentially experiencing, that is kind of stopping them or preventing them from unleashing their potential and unleashing their innovations on the world, whether that be a mindset, I think the common one being like, Oh, I'm just a student, what could I do maybe something else, or, you know, when I'm 20, or 30, I'll make a difference. Or it could be, you know, that idea that a lot of students are just saying, focusing on school, like getting a good score, and doing those kinds of things and staying within the limitations of the school curriculum. But yeah, I'd love to get your take on that in terms of like, what do you see is the common limitations that are stopping students from achieving at that kind of heights that you may have set and understanding that the heights that you said, are fairly dizzying heights? Gitanjali Rao 12:23 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's first important to address that the education system has stayed the same for what, like 50 years, and we haven't changed a thing about it until now, like the whole virtual aspect idea. But I think the thing that needs to change is the fact that we shouldn't be judged on our ability to get an A in math class, instead of should be our ability to solve problems use it for real world situations. So I do get that because I am a high school student. And I do want to get an A in the class while doing the things that I love. So I think the reason that's stopping all of these high school students is one, they don't know where to start. Second, they don't know if they can do it. At third, it's almost like I have to do the bare minimum for school, and then be done with it. And I get that feeling. And I know how hard it is to try and balance everything. So like to address all those problems. Why for not knowing where to start, that's exactly why I'm putting out this process for anyone to use, why I'm sharing my story is to show the importance that people can anyone can do it. Secondly, balance your time has always been a hard thing for me too. And I think it's the idea of being able to combine what you love to do with school. So I was recently doing an interview and something that I really liked that I said was, when you go to school, you don't say I learned math, or today I'm going to learn math, English, science, you know, history, art, music, whatever you say, I'm going to school. And I think it needs to be that same sort of concept as I am, you know, I'm innovating for better. And that could be using things you learn in school, like using that a in math class for something better. And that's just what people need to understand. And it's so hard to kind of pick that up as well. But and it was hard for me to pick that up. And it's still hard for me to pick that up. And then lastly, the idea of taking it beyond an assignment. I think like the idea for tennis actually started out as a science fair project, it started out as something I wanted to do for like, it was an idea I came up with. And I was like, Hmm, maybe I get submitted into this challenge. And you know, I did end up winning, and I like the young scientist challenge and things like that. But I realized that I didn't want to stop there. Like it motivated me to go further. But I think that's where people are finding that holting point is when you see you know, you have a solution, you have an idea, and you get it so far. And then you compete and you forget about the whole thing. I honestly say take it beyond a classroom assignment, take it beyond a science fair because you can't do so much more with it. So those are basically some of my ideas of why there aren't more of me out there. And I think we really need to clear that up. And whether that's the way switching up how the education system works or whether that's in a way, you're just putting out the message to anyone can do it, I think it does need to be changed. And it's a valid question that kids are still asking. Podcast Host 15:12 Yeah, I can see that you are very passionate about this, which is awesome. I think it's that idea that the endpoint is the assignment grade, whereas like, maybe teachers instead of, you know, writing '''A" Great Job', they should be writing like '"A" Keep going, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next with this project', like giving students the option or giving students the the in to say, hey, look, you've done great on that project, keep working on it, you know, I'd love to see it continue and evolve. And not just over the course of say, a couple of weeks, which is what most science projects are at school, but over the course of a couple months, and maybe even a year or two, for a student really to play out the full story or the full potential of these projects. Which actually leads me to one of my other questions, in terms of like Tethys to these kinds of things. I know that you develop them within a fairly short frame of time, you know, it was only a couple of months, in some instances, I was chatting to the Google Science Fair winner from 2019 Fionn, who's lovely. And one of the things he said, which I thought was really interesting was that, surprisingly enough, if you're going to be an expert in a field, it doesn't take years and like a PhD to be an expert in that field. Sometimes it can take like a couple Google searches, reading Google Scholar, reading some articles watching some YouTube videos. And very quickly, you can be in the top like three or 4% of people in that field. Is that something you experienced? And if so, like, what are your shortcuts? Gitanjali Rao 16:36 He's totally right. And I think that that's the important thing is the idea that we have almost made this reality that you can only be an expert, if you do like, you know, your four years of high school, and then four years of college and then a PhD, and then take up full time research and build, it's not true. And while you know, you probably do need that to master like all of biology, like say, for one specific topic that you want to use out there, a couple Google searches is all it takes, I actually have a whole chapter in my book about the idea of you don't need to know all the things in the world. Like when I was learning about nanotubes, sensor technology, I was at the time. And I was kind of scared at the beginning, because I did not want to memorize the periodic table. And I went and told my mentor who was talking to you at that time, like we have to memorize the periodic table. And she's like, no, for what why? Why would you need to do that. And I think that we that's what I've grown up with is understanding that if I need to master something, I need to know everything about it. So if you want to learn about nanotubes, sensor technology, learn about nanotubes, just everything you need to know about nanotubes don't learn anything beyond that I cannot recite the full periodic table by heart, but I can tell you everything there is to know about carbon nanotubes. And I think that that's what we need to put out there is you do not need years of school to be an expert in the field, and you do not need years of research to come up with an idea, you know, the bare minimum sometimes helps out the most. Podcast Host 18:02 Yeah, exactly. And it kind of allows you to cut to the chase and say, you know, and then meet experts and kind of feel like you know what you're talking about, right. And I feel like there's probably that speed bump a lot of students faces, they feel like they know a topic, but they feel like they don't know enough yet to go out there and actually start approaching professors and that kind of thing. But I think a lot of students would probably surprise themselves like after, you know, a couple weeks of research that probably be able to hold a fairly sensible, you know, intelligent conversation with nurses in the field, just because they've gone deep into one particular topic, which is really good advice. Now I'm going to ask you some kind of practical questions, because I feel like this is an interesting side of young scientists in particular, what does your room look like? So I'm going to guess that you do a lot of like playing around with different experiments and ideas, etc. Do you have like books lying around? If so what books like you have a beaker lying around? I don't know. Like, can you give us a bit of a mental picture of what your room might look like? Gitanjali Rao 18:55 Yeah, I mean, it's usually messy, because I'm kind of chaotic all the time. But um, it's, it looks like basically every other teenagers room by the LED strips and have one for Christmas, but it's fine. Um, but I think that the whole idea, it basically looks like every other teenager's room, but obviously there are like, all sorts of books in there. I'm an avid reader, but I think the books aren't exactly what you're thinking. There's like the whole Percy Jackson series and the Hero's Olympus series. And that's it, basically. And I think that that's such an exciting question too, because you would expect it to be more than that. But oh, I basically just like every other tanger term, because I am like every other teenager, and I feel a lot of my research on a computer. But most of the time that I spend working on my stuff is in the lab at the University of Colorado, Denver. So that's where my whole lab desk and table and stuff like that is but my room is fairly simple. There's not really much going on. Podcast Host 19:53 That's okay. I mean, I think that's heartening to know that I think students if they thought well, I got to, you know, have a whole kind of lab set at home, while you've got the great situation of having a lab set at a university, what's it been like working at a university when you are 15 years old? Gitanjali Rao 20:09 Yeah, it's definitely a new new experience, just to. And it's almost humbling to because you go there and you realize, like, Whoa, these people know a lot. And I have learned so much over the past couple of years, I've been at the cell biology lab at MIT. And specifically, there's so much you can get out of every single person there. And whether it's like literally going down to grab lunch with someone, there's always something new to learn. I remember the expensive emails and forums that I had to sign just to get a 13 year old into the lab. But it has been so important guys getting into lab, the second thing was trying to get a key card into the lab, which another like two months. But I think the exciting thing is, I have the opportunity to do that. But I take advantage of it every second of the day. And I think, yeah, that's the biggest thing is I am so fortunate to have that opportunity. And I love working at that lot. And while it does benefit me in my project, I also spend a lot of time, you know, helping out at the lab, like running DNA gels, just, you know, doing the normal because there's always something to learn. Podcast Host 21:17 Yeah, I'm not sure like doing DNA gels is like doing the normal, but maybe for not many 15 year olds, maybe it is for you. But that's very cool. That's great to hear. And what are some of the goals of TIME magazine's Kid of the Year? Gitanjali Rao 21:30 I was telling someone the other day, I was like, I hope I haven't hit peak. Like, I'd be like, I don't know what could get better than the cover of TIME. But I think it's almost like a go with the flow situation. And I guess we'll just see what's in store for me in 2021. I guess the biggest thing is, I do want to keep coming up with ideas. whatever I'm doing, I want to keep innovating. I will obviously still be a high school student. I'll keep innovating, coming up with ideas, breaking up the lab, just to see where the world takes me. Podcast Host 21:57 Yeah. And obviously, like University is something that is in the sights. And I'm sure like, I know, actually, you've been an avid reader of some of MIT's publications in the past, which is awesome. Which universities are you potentially aiming for? Gitanjali Rao 22:11 Yeah. So there's a lot actually. And I do course, I'm still looking and I do change my mind a lot based on the different programs. But I think obviously, the bigger schools like MIT and Stanford are long shots for everyone. And I think, but I love their programs. And I love the campus as a whole. I've visited MIT a couple times, actually. And I love it there. And yeah, I'd love to go there one day, but I'm also really loving, like, local stuff like the Colorado School of Mines has a fantastic bio engineering program. And I've worked with a lot of people there as well, let's just see you better. Like I like it's fun for me to go in every day. And I could definitely see a future there is about I honestly don't know, I think it ranges a lot right now. And I do have a couple more years. So I'll probably just end up picking it out. But hopefully around this time next year, I'll have a closer idea. Podcast Host 23:05 Well, who knows? I mean, Stanford, MIT, you can't go wrong with these kinds of schools. And I'm sure like the Colorado School of Mines, and a lot of these other great universities are fantastic as well. But for someone who's already done so much, and is like already working at labs, what value do you see in a college degree? Gitanjali Rao 23:20 Yeah, I think so many things are important about higher education, I think it's just so hard to pick out. But the biggest thing about you know how higher education will involve is, I think, you have that opportunity to be able to do research full time while working on school. And that's the kind of lifestyle that I would love to live is using what I learn in class for real world experience. So like, I don't know, doing a unit on like genetics one day, like gene editing one and then going to the lab after class and, you know, trying it out. And I think that sounds so fun to me. But it also sounds so important for our future is being able to use what we learn in school for the real world. So I think that's the most important thing about higher education that prepares you to go out there and do whatever you're going to do after college. Podcast Host 24:11 Fantastic. My last question for you, Gitanjali, is, what do you think the world or educational science will look like in 2050? Gitanjali Rao 24:19 Oh, in 2050, I know, that's definitely. It's so far out too. So it's kind of hard to think about. But hopefully, we basically sorted out the education idea like we're going for more problem based learning approach. And I think I definitely want to see education for everyone. I know we're really struggling with that right now, especially in third world countries. So I don't think education should have a price put to it. So hopefully, we see education widely distributed. And apart from that, I hope we're living in a much safer and cleaner world. Like, I guess just contamination of natural resources is the thing of the past. And of course, everyone is just looking together towards one common goal, because I think that's what we need right now is just people who are all passionate about making change coming together for something bigger. Podcast Host 25:11 I love that. I love that. Well, Gitanjali it's been awesome to have you on the show. And thank you so much for sharing your insights. I know you got another interview to go to. And I know you've been doing some multitasking on the side there, which I'm very impressed by, by the way, it's been awesome having you on the show. And I really hope students connect with you on LinkedIn or Twitter or where could they find you? Gitanjali Rao 25:31 Oh, yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram. Um, both my twitter and instagram are @gitanjaliarao. And my LinkedIn is just at Gitanjali Rao and you can come check me out there. And yeah, feel free to talk to me. Podcast Host 25:46 Awesome. Well, thanks so much. It's been great to chat and enjoy the rest of your afternoon there in Colorado. Gitanjali Rao 25:50 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Podcast Host 25:52 No worries. Talk to you again soon.

Ep #23 Pitching to Investors and Developing Biotechnology in High School

🗓 JAN 2, 2021

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with 16 year old biotech entrepreneur, Neil Mitra. This episode is packed with tips based on Neil getting seed funding for his patented invention to help the visually impaired. We chat about how his idea evolved, pitching to investors, been a finalist at my table and checks. And he's recommended books for students to dive into entrepreneurship. Let's chat with Neil Mitra. Neil, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it's awesome to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Neil 00:52 Sure. My name is Neil Mitra. I'm currently the founder and chief executive officer of EyeCane, which is a socially assistive robotics company, which is aiming to help the vision impaired individuals navigate I'm currently in grade 11. And really interested in biotechnology and entrepreneurship. Podcast Host 01:07 Okay, so yeah, it's a it's a big topic and makes me think that I'm talking to someone who's possibly twice your age, you've got a company specializing in eye care to help visually impaired navigate. When you say navigate, do you mean, like, navigate by walking or navigate by driving? Or how do you mean? Neil 01:24 Yeah, so pretty much like navigating by walking is the primary. Podcast Host 01:28 Okay, and so is it an app or is it something else? Neil 01:31 Yeah. So essentially, what we do is try to replace the current hatch technology systems that are currently on the market. So right now, the way that visually impaired individuals navigate it, like they use these things known as white canes, or tactile pavings. And the problem with the system is that tactile paving costs upwards of around $30 million to implement in a city such as Toronto, here in Canada. And that's in US figures. So it's quite a lot of money. At the same time. Like really, for visually impaired individuals, it's quite hard for them to navigate using tactile paving. And additionally, haptic navigation systems such as the ones which are made by our competitors, like we walk, or Sona dot, and stuff like that, what they do is they pretty much detect obstructions around the visual impairment visual, but do not actually guide the visually impaired individual. So what our solution is, essentially, we're creating a robotic version of a guide dog, essentially, we're taking a regular guide dog and creating a robot version of it completely minimal transport layer, a autonomous vehicle that a visually impaired individual can interact with. And it pretty much guides the visually impaired individual to any location that they need. So they connect a leash onto the device, and the device is just able to guide them through it. It has motors and everything to help visually impaired individuals navigate any location, regardless of the environment they are in, or in any setting. If it's outdoor or indoor, they can use it everywhere that they go. Podcast Host 02:59 So you've created a robotic guide dog effectively, that you can program to navigate to anywhere in a city. Neil 03:05 Yeah, essentially. And we currently have a proof of concept ready. We are right now going into the MVP stages. So our first MVP prototype is built. And our second one, which is the mass producible version is what we're currently working on. Podcast Host 03:18 Awesome. Talk to me about the timeline for all of this. I mean, how old are you now? You're what, 15, 16? Neil 03:25 I'm currently 16 years old. Podcast Host 03:27 Okay, so you're 16 years old, and the same time as being in your 11. At school? You are also creating a robotic guide dog. It seems like there's a lot going on. Is the timeline for this, like over a couple of years. Like when did you first get into this kind of interest of helping the vision impaired? Yeah, so it sort of started back in grade seven. So I think I was like, around 12 years old. Yep, around this time. And what happened was in our school, we had the science fair, and my own grandmother was visually impaired. So I wanted to do something that could help her actually navigate and she lives in India. And it's quite difficult to get any classical technology there in India. So it was a matter of like, understanding what I can do to really help my grandmother and essentially impact around 250 billion individuals just like yourself all across the globe. So really, I just began researching, understanding the basic principles of how visually impaired individuals navigate currently, what the current devices are on the market, understanding their current policies and what they're unable to do. And pretty much understanding a way how to improve on that. And how can I invent something that nobody else has done before to really help them? So that's when I kept on thinking about what can we do for this tactile paving problem. So the initial idea was to replace these tactile paving with 10 black lines. So these tend to be classic paint lines, which effectively get rid of the infrastructure cost and save around like $29.9 million, right for these governments. And you would just have a robot able to read these lines and have a cane attached to it so that the visually impaired individual can navigate from any location in the city. So that was my first initial idea. And I patented the invention back when I was in seventh. So filed a provisional patent. And then I went away to compete at the science fair, I was fortunate enough to in silver at the Canada wide science fair, which is pretty much our national science fair here in Canada. And then from there, throughout grade eight, and grade nine, I just kept on like really developing the device, mostly through grade eight, a lot of RNG work was done in terms of implementing a GPS app trying to implement obstacle avoidance. So our first obstacle avoidance feature became fully working in around June of 2018. So that is when our first stages of our autonomous transfer start to happen. And currently, right now what we're doing is like removing the paint line, use an entirely so making it completely autonomous advocate. We have a prototype of that right now. So throughout grade eight, it was pretty much developing that initial phase. And then in grade nine, I decided found a startup. So this was, I think I was I don't, yeah, I was like 14 or 14 years old. And I decided to go ahead and found the startup. And it was a great experience. So what happened was, I entered this competition called MIT logics, clubs. So it's pretty much like this huge High School startup competition among 1000 High School startups all across the globe. And they compete to become a global finalist. So only 20 Global finals, global finalists are selected to pitch in front of investors at MIT, and Boston, Massachusetts. So our team, we were lucky enough to be selected as one of those 20 pitches there. And after that, it really sort of our progress sort of skyrocketed. In terms of the business side, we got lots of connections, lots of leads to investors. And we just kept on continuing with the RMD. Really, we really focused on the RNG, we started to get like potential partnerships, the Canadian National Institute for the blind, which has over like 100,000 visually impaired individuals and their client base, which was a huge opportunity for us in terms of the business side. And then when I was in grade 10, we just kept on developing that out and grade 11. And about august of 2020, we got officially c funded and incorporated out of the state of Nevada. So that's pretty much like a rundown of where we're currently are. Well, thank you for that comprehensive rundown, and what a journey you've been on from starting at trying to help you grandma. And by doing a science fair to now getting seed funding in Nevada. That's a lot to unpack. And let's start by kind of going back to where all of this research and r&d took place. Were you doing this all from home? were you doing this at your school lab? We're going to universities like, how are you actually building robots conducting r&d? And you know, where does all this take place for you? 07:52 Yes. So before August, I'm funny, it was all pretty much self funded. I've worked on it in my home, in my own room, and just like going out there and just like building the robots through hand. So it's very much like all in my room. Podcast Host 08:09 What are we using to build the robot, we use the like, things you're buying online, or? 08:15 Yeah, so pretty much like literally just find the soldering irons, finding all the like circuitry board spine, like going to the library entry to printing, I didn't have a 3d printer back when I was actually like developing the encasing and stuff like that I soon did, except there was at a point where I just kept on building these prototypes, and there had to be a more effective method. So 3d printing was a huge win in terms of like getting all the encapsulations done for a device, and like building all the chances and stuff like that, at the same time really just like buying most of like the core parts from Amazon. And then just like hard coding them, and soldering them all together using a soldering iron, and just really building it in the garage. Podcast Host 08:56 Sounds like such an Iron Man thing to do, right? Like instead of building like a suit of armor, you're building like a guide dog or a robotic God, though, was that always the concept that you had in mind? Like after the after the black strips that you were going to do? Was that the next iteration? The robotic guide dog? 09:14 Yeah, absolutely. It was like the next big step. And it was pretty much like this, this long journey. This is like the long term vision that I had. And I decide to like, you know, start executing it and see where we go. Because really, back then what what happened was like there was a there was a lack of computation when it came to creating like this small layered autonomous vehicles back in like 2017, or back then and really going out now like technologists, progressive and more, and through really clean and smart coding, you can really utilize those computational powers that our president like just generic microchips to do something which is autonomous. So it does require a lot of c++ and hard coding to get that done. And a little bit of Python curious to make sure that this machine learning models work alongside Ross, which is the robot operating system, which is a pretty well known open source system that most robotic manufacturers also use. And and it's really a great experience in terms of going out there coding and building it. And it's a long and tedious process, especially when it comes to hardware. So unlike software where you can just have a quick push of a code, and it's there, the bug is fixed and hardware, you have to do a lot of iterations until you figure out really what's going wrong. Because even if your code is 100%, working, your robot may not work as well as intended to work. So there's a huge mechanical engineering principle, which that play alongside a software engineering problem. So both of those together create a very interesting and and unique problem in the engineering side, which is quite, which is quite fun to solve. Podcast Host 10:51 Yeah, yeah. Well, it sounds like you need to really want to do this and need to have a lot of motivation to see all these challenges through and we'll get to those challenges in a sec. But I'm interested in like, what is your superpower? Like? What is the thing that sets you apart from other students? Is it the fact that you are able to self learn really quickly? Or you are a learner or ideation? Like, do you come up with ideas? Or are you great at delegating? Like, what would you say is one or two or three of your really core skills that has enabled you to go from a science fair back in year seven, to now being in year 11, with a biotech startup? 11:27 Yeah, so really, I would say, to summarize it in one word, it would be like to drive. So it's pretty much a combination of passion, and really just hunger more than anything. So you have to be really, really passionate for what you do. And you have to work hard. That's also a really key component, you have to be willing to make sacrifices, and you have to be willing to give up a lot of things for your specific passion. And I think my superpower code on code is really having that drive. So no matter what consequences there are, no matter what setbacks there are, I'll still figure out a way to go through them. And I'm really tenacious in that sense, especially when it comes to engineering, or when it comes to business sense in terms of getting investors because I know what I build is right. And I know, in my long term vision, I am willing to work hard to make that future better for others. So really, having that mindset, and then mentality of focusing on that passion is what gets me through. Podcast Host 12:22 Okay, that's awesome. Let's unpack that a little bit further. Because I think that's a really interesting thing. A lot of students obviously struggle to find something that they're passionate about, it's always been a challenge for students, they say, Oh, you know, everyone tells students to just do something you're passionate about, right? Like, just follow your heart. It's such a generic advice that a lot of students receive, but so many students are like, Oh, yeah, well, I'm passionate about the environment. And it's kind of like this vague concept that they haven't really delved into that file, or they haven't really felt that visceral or emotional reaction to making a difference in the environment. So the passion, it's more, it's more of an interest phase, rather than a passion. So what caused you to develop a drive and like an intense passion for this particular project? Is that the helping people who are visually impaired? Is it the entrepreneurship side? Is that the kind of idea of building a business in high school like what gets you out of bed and says, yep, this is the thing that I am really super excited to be doing every single day. 13:21 Yeah, well, it's pretty much the simple logic that the fact that there are 250 million visually impaired individuals, which virtually have no hope of navigation, in a very, like generic sense, for just like an average individual, how they would navigate, they do not have that luxury. So really, the fact that there that I put it into my mentality that like there are 250 million people out there who need this device. So getting that gang my passion into that key area is like understanding the fact that what would I do day in and day out? If I had unlimited time, unlimited resources, what would I be doing, and really just, it would be doing what I'm doing now. So that's working on ik, and really developing these devices out, is something that really drives me. So creating something which is better for humankind in the long run is something which is truly inspiring for me. And if I had to give advice to general students, when it comes to finding their passion, it would probably be to imagine a scenario where, again, you have unlimited resources, unlimited time, what would you do? What problem or what area would you be working on, day in and day out? Imagine if you could regenerate automatically without any sleep, what will you do day in and day out? And go ahead and attempt to do it and see if you like it? I create like a shortlist of what you think would those top five things be and then go out there and do it and narrow it down to maybe one or two and pursue those and then eventually just go down to one. Podcast Host 14:47 Exactly. Well, yeah, process of elimination, right? Well, I think it's super interesting, though, that you have obviously addressed a number of large I'm going to guess knowledge gaps along the way, right. You've got you know what you learn at school. And I'm sure there's some students listening to this been like, did he learn how to like soldeu stuff and buy stuff off of Amazon and create a company and hard code these things? Did you learn all that at school? Or do you learn a lot of it outside of school? Neil 15:13 So I would think, first of all, all the engineering stuff I had to learn outside of school, because pretty much I would have to wait until maybe University until I got into that hardcore engineering principles there. And additionally, coding and stuff, they don't teach you in school. So I had to learn coding, self taught myself how to do coding and everything. And yeah, so really, like outside of school, most of my learning was done, when it came to, you know, the physics aspect of the device, the mechanistic principles behind why the device really works. And the software engineering portion, the coding portion, the computer science portion, all that was done pretty much through my own passion, and like really learning that, and self teaching myself, what I would say that school really helped me in was an English class. So and art class, actually those two classes really helped. Which is, which is something that Podcast Host 16:03 Surprises people. Yes, I could imagine. Yeah, Neil 16:06 yeah, exactly. And here in Canada, we also have to take like these course electives. And one of the like, the most popular one is Introduction to Business. So I also took that and all those courses, they're they're also like very language heavy. And like a bit arts focus, if you could say, this is more like the application portion. But in terms of English and art, what do you really develop is the art of like, explaining to other people what you are working on? Yeah. And like pitching to investors and stuff like that really articulating your language of your thought process. And how you work is truly something that stems out of those English and art classes, art classes really help when it comes to marketing. There's a lot of science behind art. And if you're able to exploit that, when it comes to your marketing for your business, it has a huge advantage over your competitors. And additionally, when it comes to like the actual business principles, in Introduction to Business, I learned really a lot about just core basics. And the first principles when it comes to business. Because I never came from a business background. My parents never came from a business background, I was always more in terms of the science side. So science and math and engineering side. So like really coming into that business side was a was a true experience. Because at the end of the day, science and engineering and r&d is excellent. But if you cannot apply it to the real world, there is virtually no point in doing r&d. So that's one of the biggest eye openers for business that anybody can have. Podcast Host 17:33 So what were your go to resources when you were trying to self learn all of these things? I'm going to guess there was like a young Neil Mitra, who was on Google being like how to code right? You know? Is that where you started? Neil 17:46 Yeah, so really like my first coding experience, actually, I think it was like back in grade five. So we did have like, so the reason why I didn't say like any coding languages was taught because like, in grade five, they did teach us a bit of HTML. So HTML is a markup markup language that isn't necessarily a programming language, it's just to go very technical on that. But yeah, so really from HTML. In grade five, I didn't like it too much. But then grade six, I started like it. And then grade seven, I knew I had to learn some other stuff in order to do what I was trying to build. So my, my first major programming language was JavaScript. So learning the basics of it, and then going ahead and learning, literally jumping straight to C and c++, because those were really core computer science principles, a lot of algorithms or data structures. And I like those a bit more, because they were fun to do. And it wasn't so much of memorizing syntax as it was as like really understanding, like the problems more. And at the end of the day. That's what I required more when it came to creating algorithms, which were computationally efficient for my current startup and the current robotics portion of it. So really, from there just sort of exponentially started to learn Java on I started to learn Python, and all those other programming languages, all the major programming languages. And from there, I started building those Android apps and really like that the key source to all this was YouTube, and YouTube has like great free resources. And really, you can learn anything from YouTube, at least when it comes to computer science. You don't necessarily need to even go to like computer science boot camp or anything like that. You don't have to pay for anything. YouTube has tons of great resources. They're like World Class instructors teaching there for free, and I would highly recommend anybody if they don't know where to start. Just do a simple YouTube search and you will find like a perfect choice and stick to that tutorial. The hardest thing about any learning anything new is sticking to it. You'll be really excited at first but then halfway down, like you're probably get demotivated, do not lose that momentum. Keep on going through, keep on learning it. And I promise you won't regret it. At the end of the day. Podcast Host 19:47 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's the real challenge, right? When you ever learn something new and then it's hard and then you don't want to let it anymore because it's hard, but I guess when you know where it's going to be used with the applicant. They're all that's when it can be like that motivation to keep you learning, which is really good. Yeah, it seems like coding is like the new superpower in terms of like talking about superpowers, again, for young tech startups, how important has it been for you to kind of get a solid base in coding and computer science? Neil 20:20 Yes. So coding is very important. When it comes to like when it comes to deep tech, so really, our our startups up in itself as a hard tech startup. And we have a deep tech component, when we're like implementing this AI software stuff like that's really when it comes to the software engineering side, if you want to run something, you have no code. And you can have like other people besides like, the initial startup founder to begin with, who who knows code or like, you can have other people who do know code and make them your technical co founder, because at the end of the day, like, sometimes there might be a time constraint. And if you're going to build a startup, in my opinion, it should be something which is really r&d intensive, because those startups are the ones that really innovate. And creating something like, besides just software is truly something that the world requires right now. So biotech industry is a great example of it, it's very hard, it's very hard to get something out to the market in the biotech industry, because of its hard r&d that is required. So really, to innovate, really, to survive in the competition, you have to create something which is innovative. And essentially, you were putting science into action. There. So you're combining science and engineering with entrepreneurship, and making it happen. Podcast Host 21:31 So but wouldn't it app be innovative? Like, do you need to create something like an actual product, something tangible that you can hold? For it to be considered our end date? Neil 21:42 Yeah, I mean, like, it depends on what you're actually building, right. So if if your company aims to build like, you know, another, like AI company, which is able to analyze marketing records, or is able to analyze consumer preferences, there's tons of competition out there, there is no way that you can, like, even get an addressable market size, for that type of company anymore. It's almost become like a small business, those type of startups, if I'm being like, realistic about it, and, and VCs, they always keep on turning down software startups, because of that reason, there are a couple of which survive, because they're actually good. And they actually have like, reasonable traction. And if you're going to create a software startup company, you have to have traction. And speaking to a lot of investors speaking to a lot of advisors, they've also mentioned this, like without traction, a software startup company is or like any startup company is essentially worthless. And for startups, for software startups, especially they need that traction, they need to have daily active users, they need to have even better like, possibly revenue already. So that that's something that really is required for a software startup. But there is also you can have a hard tech component when it comes to the softer side. So for example, like if you've watched, like the famous show Silicon Valley, if you're trying to create something like lossless compression algorithms, or anything, which is to do with very computationally complex projects, such as blockchain, and decentralized machine learning, or anything like that, then that would be considered something which is, you know, has a high degree of engineering difficulty. But like, the best way to assess it is that if it's there on the market, what a lot of people purchase that product? And if the answer to that is yes, then go out there and build it. But probably that solution is going to be very difficult to solve. Because at the end of the day, if a solution is that great, somebody else has to be doing it already. So that that's what it looks like the time crunches there, especially when it comes to a software related journal. Podcast Host 23:42 Yeah. So what I'm getting from what you're saying there is that like, if you have got the two parts in front of you of r&d, or creating something like a robot, or going down the path of purely software development, you're probably much more likely to go forth with the robot just because there's not as much competition and like it's so I think there's so many people building apps because it sounds I guess, low cost, I don't really know, I've never built an app myself. But essentially, like you could code an app yourself and put it out in the marketplace. And hopefully it gets picked up. But a lot of them as you say don't and just don't get any traction and they disappear. Whereas if you've got a robot that you're working on, that's a true innovation that can really revolutionize how people live. That's when you're you've got the you hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Neil 24:29 Yeah, absolutely. And it's important to have traction both ways. Like, really, for hard tech startups such as ours, one of the key like metrics is having institutional partnerships and letter of intense. So having ello eyes or Letter of Intent really helps create like a attraction value against the dollar amount to potentially how many people want to purchase it. So like traction is important both ways. But especially for hard tech, the application to the bigger world might be much much greater in the long term than that of software. Podcast Host 24:59 Right. So when you Letter of Intent, don't really know that. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing. It's probably here in Australia too. But can you explain to our listeners a little bit more about what exactly that is? And it sounds a little bit like a GoFundMe page, right? Or like a, you know, like Kickstarter or something like that, where you've created a product, and you're asking people to pre purchase the product. But you're saying like, from an organizational standpoint, it's more of like a letter of intent. Neil 25:24 Yeah, exactly. But essentially, for letter of intent, when it comes to our process, like a letter of intent is essentially like a non legally binding document. So it's non binding. However, investors really like ello eyes, because it gives a sort of, it gives almost like a psychological sort of factor to the individual who is signing that Li, that they want to purchase it. So it's giving your intent that, okay, I want to purchase this device, if it's available in the market, and this date, or whatever. And especially if you get institutions on board, institutions, usually always keep their promises. So that increases your valuation. And a good example of this is the company called boom, supersonic. So they are a startup company, which is developing supersonic airplanes, and commercially available supersonic airplanes. And they had their first prototype as a cardboard prototype. And they were able to get ello eyes from Boeing, Airbus and all these huge players. And that really skyrocketed their evaluation and they were able to close like over 10s of millions of dollars funding, because they had those ello eyes. So ello eyes are really important for a hard tech startup, because it validates that people actually want if it's on the market, Podcast Host 26:37 right? So okay, there's a student sitting out there somewhere who's like, okay, Neil's obviously had a couple of decision very, very important decision processes, like forks in the road, so to speak. Yeah. Is there any, like two or three momentous forks in the road that you've had? And what were your choices in that moment? And why did you choose what you chose? Neil 26:58 Yeah, so the biggest part was participating in science fair. So that's one of the first major one because without it, I don't think I Kane would have really existed. Because with that, like it, it really got my inner passion starting to work when it came to the field of biotech. And I was the major one, the second major one was definitely like, it was entering that competition, entering MIT launch x. So over here in Waterloo, they had a chapter here in Waterloo, and it was pretty much this club called flow boat, which was high schools, which was like Waterloo, his first high school startup accelerator. And it was like their second year running it. So I decided to join it. And they were running their MIT launch program for the second year, we were lucky enough to make it as previously mentioned. So that was like our, one of the biggest moments because we got so many investor leads through that. And probably like, the third biggest is probably like, having a like building that network. So having the skill of communication and having the skill of networking, which is a huge part of getting in contact with individuals that have leads to other investors, and ensuring the fact that your company gets like Podcast Host 28:06 funded into future rounds, and make sure that you have like a clientele base is also very important. You definitely could be that kind of solo scientist sitting in the room, you know, soldering couple things, tapping away at code, and still creating a great robot, but a robot that might not actually get to anyone, because there's no money or backing or network. So that is your decision. You're like, Okay, I need to open my project to the world and really put myself out there. What was your process for preparing yourself to do that kind of thing, right? Because you obviously had the passion and the drive, but then learning how to, as you said, you know, English class was perhaps helpful for this, right? Where you have to kind of say, all right, I've done all the coding, and I've done all the soldering and whatnot. But people probably aren't that interested in that. They want to know, the actual benefit to people who are visually impaired. They want to know how much it's going to cost. They want to know, obstacle avoidance, all these kinds of things. Right. So what was that whole process like for you, when you were first starting to pitch it to different people? And I'm sure they were throwing questions at you. They were like, Oh, damn, I haven't really thought about that yet. Like, that must have been a pretty intimidating process and have quite a steep learning curve. Neil 29:14 Yeah, so really, like that portion start to happen right after like, we won that competition and MIT lunch x. So immediately after that, I like I would recommend anybody to read books. So the best way to get good at business to get good at networking is to read books. So the first book that I read in that business world, was How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. amazing book. Yeah, an absolutely amazing book. And I recommend it to anyone. It teaches you the art of networking, and it's really beneficial, especially when you talk to investors and stuff like that. And the second part, the second book that I read was Pitch Perfect. So the book based on like how to pitch to investors, I forget the author's name, but it's a really, really good book, especially if you want to know how to pitch presentations. And that book is great because like, it will help you a lot an investor pitches and making sure that the investor gets what we're talking about. And that I started to read, it went down to like the hardcore economic basis, if you will. So I started reading Rich Dad, Poor Dad, like in around when I was in great tech, so it wasn't too long ago. And I also read one up on Wall Street by Peter Lynch, which is an excellent book, if you were interested in terms of the stock market, understanding, like how the, like, the market works, really. And then I read zero to one by Peter teal, which is a phenomenal book, it pretty much goes to the entire process of understanding if your company is going to be like the next big tech really like you making sure that your company becomes successful in the future, and assessing that if your startup idea is really worth pursuing. So definitely recommend zero to one by Peter teal to anyone. And another book, just to add into the business stuff is deep work by Cal Newport, that's a great book in terms of productivity, if you ever need motivation, or anything like that, I read that book, and really, just through reading books is probably like the only, I would say, fastest and cheapest way to learn business really well is by you know, reading books, and there's tons of like, free resources that you can get or even go to your local library and borrow those books from the library and read them and you will be able to understand really the side basics of business, which a lot of people a lot of startup founders aren't aware of. And if you're aware of that, investors will appreciate you way, way more than any other founder. So that's something to keep in mind. Podcast Host 31:40 Yeah, yeah. Well, take me to, I guess one of your latest investment pitches where you're talking to VCs as a 16 year old, that must be interesting process, right? where you're like, you know, you're obviously come across very articulate, and you know, your stuff. But I'm sure that there is that kind of like, Oh, this kid's only 16 type of thing, you know, when you go into the meeting, so yeah, what is that whole scenario? Like? How does that typical meeting playout? Neil 32:08 Yes. So really, when it comes to an investor meeting, like you have to be prepared, you have to know in and out of your device, you have to know in and out every competition? If you fail, one question, there are going to be there's going to have like doubts being raised all over the place. So you have to know what you're talking about. Because at the end of the day, like think about it, if you yourself, had your own hard earned money, would you invest it into the thing that you're building? Yeah. And what do you invest it into the pitch that you just did that, like you just hypothetically gave to yourself. So really, putting yourself into that scenario helps you create really good pitches. And it's a really iterative process to get a perfect pitch done. But once you have that perfect pitch, or like a pitch, which is close to perfection, no page is absolutely perfect. But making sure that it goes to that point of perfection, you have something ground solid done. And and for me really hitting those questions really hard in terms of the technical knowledge. At the same time, the business knowledge was something that really I would say, quote, unquote, impressed a lot of these VCs and angel investors, and all that's really impressing them is something that is a key point to keep in mind. And when it came to the issue of my age, like when I'm 16 years old, currently in high school is like I would say, if you have already, like filed so many patents of non provisional patents and all that, and you've invested so much time and energy already, and you've like taken it from a very small, like starting point to what it is now and really pursuing it, investors will see that. So it doesn't really matter in your age, but you have to like you have to like it, like you can't do entrepreneurship for the sake of getting into a university or you can't do entrepreneurship for just the sake of making money, or anything like that, like you have to really like it. Otherwise VCs or angel investors, they won't invest in you. because nobody's just going to give money to a person who just wants to go to university with a startup or just wants to make more money. Nobody's gonna give you money for that. So you really have to like it. Podcast Host 34:02 And when you're going to a VC or an angel investor how much I don't know if you can tell me this but how much are you generally asking for? Is it kind of like a shark tank scenario where you go in there and give them your pitch? And you know, say I am offering 5% of my company for this amount of money that type of thing or like what's the kind of deal you trying to broker? Neil 34:22 Yeah, so I unfortunately cannot like get the exact full disclosure. Podcast Host 34:26 Yeah, rough kind of estimates. Neil 34:30 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So like our funding rounds like currently seed funding rounds ready startup goes from around 50 K to like 100 K and us figures to raise their initial round. So we have raised our initial round, then like a series A which is right after this. The seed round can range between anywhere between like one to 10 to $15 million. When it comes to series A and Series B can can be anywhere between 20 to 30 million. Series C can be anywhere between 40 to 50. And series D is like four series C Series D is like anywhere between like 70 to $100 million plus in funding. But obviously that's like, once you have all the traction and stuff, do you only go to Series B, C, and D and so forth till IPO? So that's when you go on to the stock market. But yeah, like, really, when it comes to those investor pitches, there are two things that have to keep in mind one, which is the amount of investment amount that you want. And two, what is your post money valuation? So in Shark Tank, they say that, oh, give me $100,000 for I don't know, 1%? Yeah, this company, right? What you would say in investor pitch would be like $100,000, at a $10 million post money valuation. So $100,000, a $10 million post money valuation basically means that once they've invested that $100,000, your company is valued at $10 million. So if you do $100,000, divided by 10 million, you get your 1%. So really, through that, like that's what generally, what people do, when it comes to like that investor meetings, so just having that initial funding amount, and then your post money valuation, which is essentially like, just like restating that, oh, I want $100,000 for 1% of my startup. So yeah, in terms of investor pitches, you just really need to know what you're talking about, be prepared, and be likable. That's a huge part of it, just be really likable. And a lot of it when it comes to the early seed stage, when you don't have too much traction. It's a lot investors in vest a lot based on your emotions, if they like the founder or not, is the person something that they would love to work with? And all those emotional factors really run around? So like really targeting those emotional factors is really important, especially in the seed stage. Podcast Host 36:46 What do you think students should have lined up prior to reaching out to VCs or angel investors? Like, should they have a registered company? Should they have a patent? Should they have like, a pitch? You know, ready to go? Exactly? well rehearsed? And we'll practice it, can you give them like a couple of tips to avoid? I'm sure I'm sure there was probably, I don't know, you might want to share a little bit of an insight into perhaps a pitch that didn't go so well. Perhaps the lessons you learned from that, and what other students might be able to avoid if they were going, you know, down this path Neil 37:19 as well. Yeah, so like know your deck very well, like the pitch deck that you're gonna present. So what time which happened was a funny thing that happened, like one of the worst pitches that that I ever gave for EyeCane back when we were trying to raise our seed funding round was that, like, we recently updated a pitch deck. And we finished the update, literally 10 minutes before an investor meeting. So it was like, I didn't have enough time to rehearse it. So it wasn't the finest fish that ever gave. So having that rehearsal done, is very, very important. Like, yes, extremely important to having that we are still done. And make sure you have to some degree proof that you are working on it. Essentially, don't be like piranhas. That's Yes, advice. Podcast Host 38:04 I just listened. I just listened to bad blood actually the audible so yeah, there knows. If you're interested in VCs and startups, that kind of thing. Yeah, bad bloods a very interesting book to read or listen to. But yes, make sure that you're actually producing something that can be reproducible, and that you can sell to market, which they didn't really have. So that's good advice. That's tip number two, is there any other tips that you give, Neil 38:26 besides like creating something. So that's like creating something would be like having those partnerships having those like agreements and those pre orders and having the patent setup and stuff like that, showing that you've really worked on creating your initial prototype, and people want it and really like, the third part is just having having a likeability. So be charismatic, be really like, don't be super professional, try to make your pitch like a conversation. And in most cases, sometimes you've pitched without any pitch decks. And it worked really well, like the investor, they first did, like our first major investor for our seed round. So like the current investors invested in us, the current venture capital, firm, solid growth, LLC, we pitched them on the phone. And that was our first meeting. So we had no slide deck, nothing. It was just me talking. And my team just like listening and answering a couple of questions. And they have wanted a second phone meeting. And then finally a third one, which is where they said they want to do that. So that like, we never really had to even show our pitch deck for the investor that actually invested in us. Right. So that's the very funny part about raising your initial round. A lot of it is showing off your likability factor showing that you're really passionate about what you do, because that is when investors will invest. Because at the end of the day, if you're not honest with yourself as to why you're doing it, you cannot show that same level of honesty to others. So that is why it's very important to make sure that you have that passion. Podcast Host 39:51 Yeah, I know. Enthusiasm is priceless commodity, particularly in this kind of industry. And I, I think I think in particularly in r&d and tech startup Age isn't as much of a factor in some respects, like, as long as they say that you're capable that you know your stuff, and that you're innovating. They're like, okay, you're 16. Who cares? Let's get to the numbers of what's actually happening here and how we can invest in the product, right? Neil 40:16 Yeah, absolutely. Like, at the end of the day, VCs and angel investors, they don't care what your ages, as long as they can see an opportunity, they'll judge like a 20 year old, or like a 30 year old with an MBA from Harvard, as much as they'll judge a 16 year old is very, very unbiased. They just look at the business. And that's it. Podcast Host 40:34 Yep. And in terms of like, finding these investors and finding Angel funds, do you just kind of like Google investment funds nearby? And kind of like, I don't know, this is what I would probably do. If I was trying to find investments. I know you got a great network from being part of MIT and Jags. And I'm sure it's like, primarily referral based. But is there sometimes the odd cold email or like cold call and be like, hey, look, I've got a new great invention that I'm working on. I've had some patents done. Would I be able to pitch to you guys sometime next week? Or, you know, what's the process to getting those meetings happening? Neil 41:08 Yeah, so like, ironically, the thing is, like, for the investors that also like, that'd be fun, Miss Jen invested us. They weren't from any other referral or any investor lead that we previously had, we were just like searching and hunting through. Like really a Google, Google is not like the finest place to start. It's best if you start building out that network. But we were just searching for like this consultancy and like these angel investment funds and all of these areas, and we came across a consultancy firm and Ben like we just had to cold email them. And it worked. So cold emailing isn't a bad idea at all, especially when you're but be good at cold emailing have some really good practices when it comes to cold emailing, there's great articles online, that you can read all about cold emailing. And that's frankly, where we also learned it from. And it works cold emailing sometimes works like occasionally, like you'll probably have a 25% success rate on average, if you're really good at it. And I don't say that to demotivate anyone, I'm sure. Like, if you're willing to learn it, you can definitely do it. Podcast Host 42:06 There's nothing that you can't learn. It's interesting what you're looking at cold emailing as like a learned skill, right? It's not just finding the email and just typing away and sending anything, right like there's a certain formula and a certain art to sending a very, very good cold email that tries to elicit a response. Because the end of the day, like that's all you wanted to get as a response. And that starts a conversation. But I think you might have a couple of tips, which is like, keep it short and sweet. Try and set up phone conversation, like a pretty simple call to action, right? Those kinds of things can make a pretty solid cold email. But certainly like as you said, there's a lot of resources out there. So students should before blasting VCs and angel investors with all these cold emails, take the time to learn what a good email actually looks like. Can you talk to me about how the team grew? And how long they've been involved? Is it mainly students? Do you have some adults involved and how you got them on board? Neil 42:59 Yeah, so our entire like team initially started off like full of high school students. So six high school students like starting from late 2018, we had a lot of team changes. In fact, from that original team, only one person still remains from that very original team, who's currently in University at the time, he was in grade 11. So now he's in university. And he's currently studying Software Engineering at the University of Waterloo. And he's a great, he's our chief technology officer in software engineering. And he's a great person, his name is Eric. Shout out to him. And he's a great guy. And he's a really smart engineer. And yeah, so like, I work with him a lot in terms of the software side, and implementing everything in in our, in our software, transfer layers and stuff like that. And right now, our team consists of five other students. So snake Shah, who's our chief development officer, Cynthia Murphy, who's our chief financial officer. And we also have shift Patel, who's our chief technology officer. In our hardware design. We have Richard Wang, who's our chief marketing officer. And we also have REM Betty who's also our co Chief Marketing Officer, and their grades go from grade 12, which is Snee grade 11, who's myself, Richard, and Schiff, and Sophia and a TED, which is Aryan. So we have a pretty diverse range of people who are working on the problem. And they're quite motivated to solve the problem that we're aiming. So Podcast Host 44:25 there must be times where people kind of doubt themselves or is there none of that? Do people just have like, complete confidence in themselves in the product in the team and they're like, ah, regardless, we can make a difference to the world. Neil 44:38 I think like in a perfect scenario, like you should always have that mindset that regardless of your age, you can still do it. But obviously, like, if a setback comes you have to remember why you're doing it in the first place. Like you have to look back at like really just calm down your nerves and think on a logical basis of why you're doing it. And business is like a huge thing which is always repeated. Don't let emotions run you Always make sure that your logic always really operates you are more than your emotions do. So that's something to keep in mind, when it comes to business, I'm not gonna say entrepreneurship is to really have that mindset in place, think logically, don't go on to like a sort of unproductive Street, just because something isn't working, you should try to solve that problem. And at the end of the day, like, there will always be harder problems to solve. So always realize the fact that problem that you have cannot be the hardest problem that you are currently facing, there will always be a harder and harder and harder challenge. And simply accepting the fact that there is no perfect result is something to keep in mind. When it comes to business. Like there's no perfect result in terms of like an engineering problem, it will obviously pop up once again, and again and again. And there will always be improvements to be made. Podcast Host 45:51 That's good advice. Now, besides the books and your experiences in different competitions, I'm still going to talk about in my table objects, we're going to get to that eventually. But I'm interested in who your mentors are who the people around you where that might be, I don't know, I don't want to be age discriminatory or keep talking about it. But I'm sure there was a couple people who were, you know, maybe 1020 years, your senior, perhaps your parents, teachers, other people who have been entrepreneurs before an entrepreneurship community. Like Yeah, who did you kind of go to for advice during this whole process that you were starting a business and, you know, pitching to investors and that kind of thing? Neil 46:27 Yeah, so I never really had like it as a reason I should not my parents are never into, like, they're not interested, like the business side. My, my dad's like, my dad's a professor at the University of Waterloo. And he's very much in terms of like the literally like in the sense of mechanical engineering and all that area. So I got, like, advice in terms of the r&d portion, I understood how to make R&D very well, because from a very young age, like beginning from like, grade three, grade four, I started doing like all the hardcore, mechanical engineering principle stuff, yes. And all that and learning how to apply, like really just the end of the day, it's pretty basic math, until you start getting into the calculus stuff, which I'm not going to go into too much. But, yeah, like, really had that base already there. So I knew I could do the science work and everything like that. But the business side of it, I didn't know too much. So really just networking and outreaching. And just simply ask questions, because people know where you are, as a starting entrepreneur, people know that you need to build that network. And the right people will always be open to doing that for you. But there'll be open to help you, they'll be open to connect you to leads obviously have to keep in mind that people are busy, and they won't respond to your emails 100% of the time. But yeah, like keep that in terms of mind. That to reach out to people, you have to be likeable. And you have to build that network for an early age. So for me, it was really just participating in MIT launch x, getting in contact with those mentors, attending events is a huge part. So obviously now during COVID-19, once this pandemic ends, I would highly recommend entrepreneurs to go out and network at these networking events at huge conferences and get in contact with a lot of people friend network as much as you can, because you'll start to meet many great people who really want to help you. Podcast Host 48:14 Yeah, absolutely. Well, MIT Launch X. Let's talk about it. Talk me through that experience. How you prepared you were finalists, did you win anything at the competition? or? Neil 48:24 Yeah, so the competition is pretty much like if you become finalists, you get a priceless asset, which is like all these investor connections, and everything like that. And I'd recommend like, especially for like really hard tech startups, it's very worth it. Because most of the investors there and leads there are like pure heart tech investors. So like hardcore microbiology, startups, or material science startups, they should go ahead and like really, really participate in that. Because like those investors Podcast Host 48:50 Not like a software app taught kind of startup, it's more for people who are creating things. Neil 48:54 Yeah, for sure. But if you are trying to do software, like I know for a fact that the competition is much more like hardcore there, like I believe, out of the 20 startups that were finalists, I think there's like only three or four, which were actually like software based. So it's definitely much more difficult to take the software because the investors they also know that software is becoming riskier and riskier each day, but a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, and really the experience of like the launch x, I'd recommend it to anybody back then, like we participated in MIT launch x clubs, which is the global competition. Unfortunately, MIT logics clubs as they no longer have that competition anymore, but MIT law Jax is still running. So that's like now that I think they made it into a summer program. So you pretty much create a startup and you can spin off a startup from there almost like an incubator program. There's a demand for high school students. So I would definitely recommend anybody do it. It's a great learning experience. And if you're interested in entrepreneurship, Podcast Host 49:52 do it for sure. So in terms of competing in the actual competition side of things, what are they wanting to say is it just like pitch deck and that kind of Shark Tank style, or is it more in depth, they want to see your numbers or that kind of stuff as well. Neil 50:07 So really, you have to go in there like an investor pitch. So you have to show your prototype, you have to show like your numbers and everything NSH like isn't in a stadium, so, or like not in a stadium, but like in a large lecture hall. And there's about 100 to 150 people that you're pitching to. So don't let your nerves get on you. Yes, huge part and making sure that you have that public speaking skill. And be fearless when you're on on the actual stage itself is something to keep in mind. So constantly rehearse, you can never get enough practice. So keep on practicing and practicing and practicing, and do really good practicing, and make sure you're good at it. And then of that, once you feel that you're satisfied, you know that it's good, then you can make sure that any investor invest in, in that deck. Because if you yourself intrinsically know, in your soul, at that pitch, what you're doing is true, anybody will go ahead and invest in it eventually. So that's something to really keep in mind to keep your mindset up there is you have to be satisfied with your own work that you create. Podcast Host 51:11 Yeah, so pretty much you are going to get to the finals. If you are a like a brilliant speaker, be you have a great pitch deck, see you have a great prototype. And they like they can see that your product is meeting a need or solving a problem like actually realistically has application in the real world. Neil 51:30 That's the really the final pitch that you have to do. So once you're a global finalists, when you're pitching at MIT's literally like that, but like submitting to MIT Launch X as well, you have to make a five minute video pitch. So we actually really good in terms of video pitching as well. So yeah, again, same skills apply, you have to show off your prototype, you have to show your numbers, you have to show that you're a great speaker. And if you don't do that, like unfortunately, you will get selected. Podcast Host 51:54 So it seems like there's a lot of different things. I mean, it's such an interesting competition, right? Because there's no right or wrong answer. Like it's purely based on the skill set. And the product and every everyone's going to have very different products, right. Like you're they're addressing, you know, product vision impaired, and there's probably people out there who also, you know, doing completely something different to what you're doing. And yet the judges, they are trying to compare the two even though they're apples and oranges in terms of like, actual problem that they're trying to solve. So is there any, like one or two tips that you would give to students who are interested in something like Mr. Table objects, or a similar type of competition, obviously, like the public speaking side is super, super important. The video pitching side super, super important, but is there any kind of message or tip that you think students should be including in their presentations that would help elevate their project? Neil 52:44 I would say like really read the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yes, like tynax, any presentation, any pitch deck or anything like that? And really just practice those by two best advices that I can give anyone? Yep, there's no shortcut way. There's only a lot going on. Yep. Which is just hardcore practice. There's no secret trick or anything. Everybody follows the same path. You have to work smart. And you have to work hard. Podcast Host 53:10 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So my next question is, how do you balance all this with school? Are you running the economics classes now? Where you are running the tech classes? Or, you know, how are you making this all work alongside your schoolwork? Neil 53:26 Well, firstly, I wish I was running the classes in person. Yeah, but yeah, it's pretty good. So far, like I'm currently studying for my AP exams. And yeah, because like, I really like taking exams a test. Like for me, I find tests to be a perfect way to show up what you know. And really, like, understand, and realize the fact that if you know what you're talking about, and if you know, like, these things, which are quite important, at the end of the day, I feel like school students, they have a very negative outlook, when it comes to tests and quizzes and stuff like that, I treated those as positive. And having that positive mentality is very important. Otherwise, you simply won't be able to like, balance all these things. So one thing that helps is you have to have a passion for like your entrepreneurship side. And whatever thing you're getting in terms of your extracurriculars, and you also have a passion for school, you pretty much really have to be at or about learning new things. And that's not a bad thing. A really just having that passion is very important. And having the skill to talk to people is also very important. Podcast Host 54:31 100% and what's next for you? What's the future hold for Neil as well as Metro biotechs and ik and and everything like, I'm sure you've got next steps planned out already. Neil 54:42 Yeah. So Mitra Biotechnologies is currently like another startup that I'm founding and that one like it's currently in stealth mode, so I can't reveal too much about it. But it's to do with medical diagnostics. And that one's like really hardcore, really strong microbiology, material science area, and that It's very exciting. So really, for me, I would say the future is like, what expect happens to EyeCane is that we're most likely going to like after we have sold our products, which have CRB products and stuff like that, we hope to sell the company eventually, to a larger player who can really, really develop out our company. Because at the end of the day, what we're developing requires a high capital cost and high r&d and high manufacturing costs, and high maintenance. So through that system, we need somebody who has those in built resources already. Because at the end of the day, in the long term, it does become like a low maintenance job. But you need that very high, almost like 100 $250 million total in funding to have those factories, jobs and supply chains built up, so probably slotted to some company, which already has that set up and ensure that they are able to sell it. And at the end of the day, get it into the hands of the visually impaired all across the world. That's what's going for EyeCane what I see in the next two or three years. And for Mitra Biotechnologies I don't know too much. It's too early to tell right now. But I'll definitely keep you updated. Podcast Host 56:08 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think students would love to follow along with your story. And these the best place to do that LinkedIn. Neil 56:14 Yeah. So LinkedIn, I also have Twitter. My my Twitter ad is pretty much Neil neitra underscore. Yeah, those are probably the best places to reach out to me to network with me. And yes, but Podcast Host 56:24 awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Neil, for joining the top of the class. It's been a fascinating insight into the world of a 16 year old pitching devices, making a massive difference in the area of biomedical technology and hopefully helping vision impaired people around the world. And I'm sure you're going to go on to do some pretty awesome things. So thanks so much for joining us, and I look forward to sharing the episode far and wide.

Ep #22 Getting a Scholarship to Oxford and the Importance of the Arts

🗓 DEC 30, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with Faith Lee, who will soon be heading to Oxford on the prestigious Singapore based PSC open scholarship, Faith studied at the Singapore School of the Arts. And she talks about how she aims to blend her love for art in experimental psychology at Oxford. And of course, Faith also shares her advice for aspiring UK University Africans. Let's chat with Faith Lee. Welcome to the show Faith, it's awesome to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Faith 00:50 So yeah, I'm Faith. And I'm currently living on a tropical island in Singapore. Last year, I graduated from the School of the Arts, having specialized in Visual Arts. And I suppose I'm someone who has quite a big passion for both the arts, creativity and people. And I'm currently on a gap year. Next year, I'll be flying over to the UK to go study experimental psychology Oxford scholarship. Awesome. So how old are you now? I'm 1919 years old. So you're just doing a gap year at the moment that you must be looking forward to get into the cool calm weather of well not necessarily calm the cool drizzly weather of Oxford next year, what are you looking forward to most about going to a university like that? Oh, I think one of them would be the collegiate life there. Because it will be such a different environment, Singapore, it's really going to be a whole new culture, new people, even new food and an environment. And I think I'm looking forward to seeing the kind of people they have the the teaching style, as well as because Oxford specializes so much in the tutorial system, which is something so unique about the program. Yeah. So I think that's something that I'm really looking forward to experiencing. Can we fly over? Yeah, I bet. Well, I hopefully, you know, the Coronavirus is not affecting your travel plans. Do you know what date at the moment you plan to head over? Or is it just like a month in general that you've got in mind? Tom starts October. So likely in September next year, I actually thought that I'll be flying over this year, and I was making plans like booking all the hotels and everything for the same home notice. And last night, I found out that because of the virus things got a bit complicated. And so last minute, I had to change my plan. So that was a bit of a letdown. Podcast Host 02:26 Oh, well, you'll get there eventually you get there. And then you'll have an amazing time. But for our listeners who don't know what the tutorial system is, can you explain that to them a little bit. Faith 02:35 So Oxford has mainly two different systems of teaching. One would be mass lectures. So those are the most standard or the middle, we have a bunch of students off on the same subject together, and then there'll be a lecture teacher. And on the other hand, is also the tutorial system. So that's a much more personalized small group setting. So usually, each target has about two to four students paired with one professor. And there will be someone who is an expert in their field. And they will really go have really in depth conversations beyond just normal lecture content. And that's where you can refresh your ideas, have good conversations and learn on a more personalized level. Podcast Host 03:12 Often those tutes led by someone who really knows what they're talking about in their field. So it's a really discussion based learning experience. And I've heard Oxford students say that it's the best and worst thing about studying at Oxford, because if you've done your homework, and you've done your readings, it's awesome. Like you can go in there and have an amazing discussion. But like, if you're not really feeling that well, and you try and go into that discussion group, it's not so good. Because you can get found out there's nowhere to hide when there's like three or four people, right, like you'll get found out pretty quickly. And while we're discussing all things Oxford, could you potentially give a few tips and advice on the application process and how you successfully gained admission? Faith 03:51 I think Oxford is really looking for things beyond just what you might score for IB or A-levels. Because there have been cases where students have gotten perfect score 45 for IB, but the school actually chose someone who got a lower score over them. And I think the thing that distinguishes such people is that ability to think critically. And I think something that is quite consoling to think off when you go for the interview is that the interviewers aren't really looking to see how much you know, the content itself. Rather, they're looking at your ability to think on the spot, because they know that you haven't had those years of study such that an undergraduate might have or a professor, but they're looking for that ability that you might have to consider is just something respectives have a logical and creative thinking and to evaluate evidence that they give you right on the spot. So I think it's a lot more of these soft skills that they're looking for, that will really stand you apart, rather than just a number on the people, you get an exam. It's a lot more of a holistic consideration. So I think that's something to consider. And I think another thing would be to keep in mind, what is your motive for applying to this particular University I think that's always something to be, that's something that's good to be conscious of. Because this awareness gives you so much more confidence when you actually do go stand before interviewers, or as you're writing your personal statement, because then you have this conviction that comes behind every single word that you see. And even if you might make mistakes, I'll say something accidental, you know where you're coming from. And that helps to give the sense of security and assurance, even as you talk to your interviewers. And, in fact, I think it's nice to think of the interview more of like, as a conversation. And I think that was something that I experienced in one of my interviews, which was really nice, because as you were talking, anybody involved more into just a discussion with me and the tutors rather than me feeling as if I was being interrogated or anything like that. So it made the whole process so much more enjoyable to think of it from their perspective. Podcast Host 05:53 Yeah. Do you think students can prepare for the interview? Faith 05:56 I think definitely, yeah. So while the tutors might not be looking for hard and fast on this, I think that being aware of what content is in your course, would definitely be helpful. So for me, before I went to my interview, I went online to go read up a lot more about psychology because I hadn't studied it in, in soda. And I also went up and read different research papers, like current research that was being done in the field. So I could kind of get a better idea of what experimental methods were out there. And how concepts were being used in the world, I suppose. So I think it was quite fortunate, because one of the articles that I was reading its content actually came up on the very day of the interview itself. And I just been reading about it a few hours before. So that was really fortunate. That was lucky. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So when I got posed that question, I was like, Wow, there you go. I read that just a couple hours before it was so apt. Podcast Host 06:51 Yeah, speaking to other students who have been admitted to Oxford, they say, like, try and read as much content as you can relevant to what you want to study. Because if you can draw on a couple of examples or anecdotes during your interview, then it will put you in a lot better standing than someone who's only, you know, studied the school content, and not really anything beyond that. But you're studying experimental psychology. What's that all about? Because I actually am not familiar with that degree. Faith 07:17 Okay. So experimental psychology, it covers different topics such as perception, cognition, neuroscience, developmental science. So it's really all these different aspects of human behavior. But we look at it from a very scientific standpoint, and I think the focus at Oxford is on actually conducting your own research and experiments as well. So it's not just the conceptual part while we actually get some hands on experience, which is a really nice part of the course. Podcast Host 07:43 Okay, so how many branches of psychology are there? Is that like, the main one that Oxford offers? Or are there a lot of other ones and you decided to go down the experimental route? Faith 07:54 So at Oxford, there's two main psychology focused ones. One would be et, which is experimental psychology. The other would be PBL, which is philosophy, psychology and linguistics. Yeah. Okay. So that one's a bit more diverse. Podcast Host 08:08 Yeah, right. Right. Right. Okay. I thought you were about to say, pp there. But that doesn't have much to do with psychology. That's politics, philosophy and economics. And so that ppl one was it? Faith 08:20 Yeah, PV das, or psychology, philosophy and linguistics? Podcast Host 08:24 Right. And how did you choose experimental psychology versus ppl? Faith 08:29 I think, because I'm both who really loves biology. I really like that science aspect of it. And so I felt that in EP we do to focus more on stuff like neuroscience, which is something that I really enjoy. And as far as the biological aspect of the brain, I think that PVR it also covers more of like the social dimension. So that's a bit more of a focus compared to EP Podcast Host 08:52 and what has given you that kind of background to be ready for something like studying AP, because listeners may not know this yet, but you have quite an extensive background in him. And you mentioned at the start, you graduated from the School of Fine Arts, is that right? Yeah. So you've got a background in arts. And when I think Fine Arts like, Look, don't get me wrong. I don't know a huge man about the arts and like the programs, not schools, but I tend to think it's like looking at old paintings and deciding what was the artist trying to say when they painted the hand this way versus this way? That type of thing? Like, was that your arts experience? And if not, please correct me. Faith 09:31 I think a question I get a lot when people hear that came from scarfy artists. Do you guys just study all day, every day? Right? Yeah. But actually, what we do is that arts is kind of like our RCC, like a specialization we do. But we also have academic subjects besides that, so I didn't have to go study like math, science English, like Chinese is like a language as well. So it's a whole range arts is kind of like our extra clinical subject that we do and we do a very heavy for Isn't it, but it's a lot more than just looking at dusty old paintings in a museum Podcast Host 10:04 Was there a bit of that though? Faith 10:06 We did do a bit of art history series and about Renaissance art. But they also had more of like a modern focus as well. So we learned all the way from like historical caveman style, to our modern art, like Dadaism surrealism. And we also had a lot of hands on work as well that we did in the studio, creating our own craft that one practice and putting into education, all the techniques that we've been learning over the years. Podcast Host 10:31 Well, I'm glad you've cleared that up for me and our audience, that it's not just looking at dusty old paintings all day, there must be a fairly significant proportion of those students who then go into arts related programs at university. What made you go down towards the psychology route more so? Faith 10:50 Well, I think that most of my life, I actually had thought that I was going on a purely Fine Arts route. And so when I was while I was doing that, becoming an artist, saying Fine Arts at a university level, but I was just thinking about it quite recently, like just last year itself. And I thought, considering things on a slightly more practical standpoint, because I think that in Singapore's art scene is still quite natural, and like, it's not as developed as other Western countries. And Singapore does focus a lot more on, I guess, the stem parts of education. And I felt, perhaps that I would want to go into something that was a bit more of Applied Arts rather than finance. So I started like searching a bit online, and talking to people about what kind of jobs were available. And something that I came across once either of you. And a few that was on, it really appealed to me, because it really projects the two things I love in life, which is like a passion for the arts as well as helping people. And I felt art therapy would do both of these. And because I already have an arts background, I felt that to complement that I should go ahead and study psychology. And it's something that I am really interested in at the same time. So everything just seemed to fall into place. And last year, I decided to shift like the course of what I was going for. Podcast Host 12:05 Awesome. So yeah, it's been a bit of a journey with I know art therapy is like very interesting field kind of emerging field. And psychology does, I guess relate to that, and it is an interesting fit. But you did mention that Singapore does have a very strong stem focus. And I think a lot of places around the world at that kind of high academic level. It's like the computer science, maths, science students, they're kind of celebrated, you know, all the parents are like you're doing the great thing, you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be an engineer, you're going to be, you know, computer scientists, whatever it might be, did you feel any pressure being at a fine art school to push the arts side of things aside, so you could focus on, you know, something other than just purely Fine Arts. Faith 12:49 I don't think that pressure ever was there. In my case, I think for one, I'm really glad that I have very supportive parents who don't have such a traditional mindset. And they really encouraged me to just go there and fulfill what I was interested in. And I think being in in soda, I was surrounded by so many like minded individuals who are also so talented at what they did. And just going and watching my friends performances and showcases and exhibitions, I think we really could feed off this passion from one another. And it was such a lovely community to be in such that we really encourage one another's passions and interests. And I think that school also helped to balance between like the arts and our other academic subjects. So they had a heavy focus on both of them. They didn't push one of them aside to the detriment of the other, but they really encouraged us to do both our academy. And in parallel, it really helps me in my own focus, as the first thing is all. Podcast Host 13:43 What advice would you give to students who are having to make that decision or feel as though they have to make that decision between doing the thing they love, which might be the art versus doing the thing that everybody around them is telling them will be the future of work? Right? Like, it's interesting, from your perspective that it sounds as if you had a very supportive community at the fine art school. So going down that track of of studying the arts would have still been really supportive, because there was still a really great community. But I think a lot of kids who are not at a dedicated at school might love Fine Arts might love music might love the kind of performance side of things, but at the same time might feel that everyone else at the school is going into either finance or going into STEM fields and not really pursuing that interest in the arts. I think it's interesting from your perspective that you are able to see the arts having a place in another area like therapy, right? So you're able to see a career path in that. But what advice would you give to students who are in that situation or kind of like I'm looking at picking my subjects for next year, I'm looking at trying to specialize in particular path in my school, and it just doesn't feel as though the arts is the place where I should be despite that being my passion Faith 15:00 I think there are several things to consider here. So one would be the dilemma between choosing something that you might consider more practical for something that you're passionate in. I think one thing that obsessions could keep in mind is that if you were to actually pursue something that's your passion, if you encounter any challenges along the way, are difficulties, because of the underlying passion that is driving you, you're not likely to give up as easily as if you were to consider another fuel that you weren't as interested in, but just felt pressured to go into. Because in the long run, it's more likely that you're going to be burning out if you don't have that intrinsic drive that is fueling you throughout your whole journey. On the other hand, also known as this practicality you think of such as like how sustainable your job would be in the future, and what that career progression could be like. So maybe another thing they could consider is, if they do have a passion for the arts, it's not necessarily that that passion has to become the mean career. In fact, it's something that can be pursued, really, in your own time as a hobby, or as like a side passion. You could have like a day job, but still keep up this passion alongside in parallel. Podcast Host 16:06 Yeah, I think it's worth considering for students not to feel as though pursuing one area means you have to give up something that you love. Now, you can still do both. I think that's really good. Is there any particular skills that you learned from your fine art school that you think will be really applicable to Experimental Psychology at Oxford? Hmm, Faith 16:25 is it being able to think in a creative way, and watch a problem or experiment from various perspectives would be really useful? Because what we did in my fine art school astragal was very project based. So usually, we were given like a certain theme, and based on that theme, good springboard, and come up with our own concept. and visualize exactly what what we wanted to convey or create, and what was the message that you wanted to bring out there to the audience. And you know, having that general theme, it's really so broad, you can approach it from so many various perspectives. And I think a skill that is learned from there is having this really kind of open minded thinking of approaching this problem that you're given, and looking at it from as many multiple perspectives as you possibly can. And from there, slowly reading out exactly, and clarifying what path you want to take to move forward. So I guess a model that I kind of learned along the way, was this diverging and then converging model. So what happens is that you're given the problem at first select a single point, and from there, it's like, it's like a graph that diverges. And you try to look at as many possible viewpoints that you can possibly think of. And from there, you begin to converge against these select off a more probable solution. So you can come up with our ideas that you think would be interesting to really pursue. And I think having this kind of framework is something that's applicable no matter what course you're in, doesn't have to be financial, or humanities, but it's really any problem that you face in life, it could even be personal issues. And this same framework is applicable to everything that you learn. Podcast Host 17:56 Yeah. And I think that's a good way of looking at it. Do you find that when you are talking to like a hardcore stem friend, like us, you know, a friend of yours that may be, you know, maths and science to the bone? Do you feel as though you are talking to someone from another planet? Or do you still feel as though they essentially have a similar way of approaching things and similar ideas, they're just more maths and science based? Faith 18:21 I think that it's probably similar. The only difference is exactly the focus of your field. Because I have this one friend who is really into finance and math and physics, which seems was a part from the outset. But talking to him, I really feel as if we can connect over the way that we approach our subjects and passions. He loves that discovery, of understanding these fundamental truths about the world that physics has to offer. Yes. And I think even in psychology, there's also that parallel there in which we're trying to discover truth about humanity, like the way that the mind works. And I really love this whole investigative process along the way, and these interests that people bring to their own field. I think that even though such subjects might seem to be was a pipe, there is that similar sense of drive that all people carry out no matter what field you're in? Podcast Host 19:08 Yeah. Now with your Oxford admission, it wasn't just an Oxford admission, you are also a scholarship recipient. So can you explain to our listeners a little bit about what the name of the scholarship is, and what it entitles you to? Faith 19:23 So I'm currently under the Singapore PSC open scholarship, where PSE stands for Public Service Commission. So what this scholarship does, it's it's government scholarship. So when I go over to the UK, they are going to cover 100% of the fees. So tuition fees, that's awesome. Yeah, housing, even like accommodation and allowance as well. So that's really amazing. Podcast Host 19:45 The Singapore government is paying you to study at Oxford. Yeah, that's, that is like the ideal situation. So do they give out many of these scholarships? Faith 19:54 I think it varies from year to year. So this year, the intake was cut down quite significantly to about I think 35 it really varies on the circumstances and exactly on what kind of scholars the government needs for the future. So beyond just them covering a lot of the school fees, there's also of course, a bond that comes along with the scholarship. So for PSE scholars, if you go overseas, it's going to be a six year bond, when you come back to Singapore, Podcast Host 20:18 I 60 bond, what does that mean? Faith 20:20 Well, for me, under the open scholarship, within the six years, every two to three years, I'll be rotated around to different ministries in public service, to really give back and work on different stuff like policymaking, these kind of issues. Podcast Host 20:33 Ah, so it's as if the Singapore government is investing in the bright young minds of the future. And they're saying, hey, we'll help you if you help us. But that's great. They're like, you've got a ready made job as well, as, you know, free ride to full ride, I should say to Oxford, is it just oxford university that they have this relationship with? Faith 20:55 No, it's actually pretty much whatever University you want to apply to. So they do send scholars over to the UK, US, Australia, even other countries like Germany, China, France, Russia, and they do support local scholars as well who want to just study in Singapore. So it's really quite a lot of options for people to pursue. And I think another good thing is that PLC is rather open to letting scholars study a very vast range of subjects. So you don't have to just study politics or international relations in order to get the scholarship. But they actually actively encourage people to study outside of this view, so that you learn various soft skills, and you bring different perspectives to the table in future when you do so. Podcast Host 21:35 So did you have to apply for this scholarship? or How did you get identified for the PSA? Faith 21:41 So for me, as well to nominated students in my cohort, so I think the identifiers based on our academic and character check record, overall, six years in school for six years? Yep, it's from a secondary to like a high school level, I'm not sure what the equivalent is for us, from 13 to 18 years old. Podcast Host 22:01 So character and academic track record. So I mean, like, Is that part of the candidacy? Right, that you just have to be like, a really lovely person? Is that part of the whole winning a PSA, Faith 22:14 I think we will definitely look at your motive for wanting to apply for the scholarship. Because I think that going to the public service, they were looking for people who want to contribute back to society, not just you're in it for themselves, or that kind of mentality. So I think for PRC, they want people who do have a heart for those around them. Because ultimately, these are going to be, I guess, the future leaders of the country who I guess the motive should be for your fellow countrymen around you, rather than just trying to be in it for any financial gain or selfish reasons. Podcast Host 22:46 Absolutely. So what would be your advice about crafting that overall candidacy over the couple of years, you know, the six years that you had to do that throughout high school? Faith 22:56 Well, for me, over the past six years, I wasn't really working towards a scholarship or towards a PAC scholarship in particular, I was just kind of on following my own passions and causes that I was passionate about, I suppose. So I think that when considering your scholarship applications, and writing your own personal statement and everything, I think that the message that you bring forth really has to come from your heart, it has to be something that you yourself, believe in. It's not just about giving the interviewers, what do you want to hear, because I think that if you were to do that, and to get in, perhaps further down the road, you might realize that this organization might not be as suited to your own personality, as you might think. So I think that really presenting forth your most authentic thoughts, struggles and your whole thinking process would be so crucial. And I suppose in that sense, you can trust the process of application. Because I suppose that an alternative way to look at it would be that if you don't get in, maybe it's for a better reason, because it's something better for you down the road that would be more suited to your own inclinations and talents. Whereas if you do get in, and you're just speaking completely, genuinely, you know that that's where you're meant to be. And it's something that exactly suits who you are as a person. And it's a cost that you do believe in, Podcast Host 24:11 kind of like trust the application system that it won't see wrong, even if you feel like you really want to go to x y Zed like if you end up going somewhere else. It will be ultimately for the right reason at the end of the day. Is there any kind of centerpiece that you worked on throughout high school, any kind of like capstone project, I guess is the term some people might use that it would say Faith is the so and so person who created an organization or raise this money or something like that, is there any kind of centerpiece project that you had throughout high school? Faith 24:43 Firstly, it wasn't so much something that ran through all six years, but we did have various service learning and projects along the way. So I did go for this overseas service learning project to Cambodia. And while we were there, we helped to teach these children from different rural villages. Stuff like English science, hygiene through the arts. And my role in the team was both in logistics, a bit of like the team, team identity, as well as like the actual teaching and physical construction that we did on the site as well. Podcast Host 25:16 How long did that last for? Faith 25:18 For the first year, we went there for I think, two weeks. And then the following year, I applied again, and we got in, and I got in. So I went to visit that same area again for another two weeks. But the planning for that whole project lasted like several months for each time before we actually flew over Podcast Host 25:34 there. Yeah, it's quite an important project to you. And I think obviously, like that idea of using arts to help communities, right, and that kind of carried through. And now you're looking at doing experimental psychology, which is very, very cool. Now, what comes first? Is it the Oxford admission or the scholarship? Faith 25:52 So I sent in my application for the scholarship in June, because that was in the early application. The also application was further on somewhere, I think, in October, if I remember correctly, yes. And after that, my Oxford interview came somewhere in December. And then my PC interview came in January. So it was kind of running concurrently and staggered along the way. Because there were a lot of different applications features to get through for both applications. Podcast Host 26:17 So did you know that you were a Oxford student first, or did you know that you were a PSC student first, like what kind of letter came in the mail first been like, hey, congratulations, Faith, we really want you to be a Oxford student or PSC. Which letter came first? Faith 26:34 I think it was my offer first, for Oxford first. So you said that was based on what my IV score would be. So I had a general sensing of that. And after the PSE interview that she got back really fast, in just a couple of days told me that, well, I actually, I should get it. So I was also grateful for that opportunity. And a while after that, that's when I got my IV score, which then confirmed my place in Oxford. Podcast Host 26:58 So that's awesome. So you got the Oxford and then like, That must have been great. But I know that for a lot of people, it also like, Oh, yeah, great. That's also super expensive. But yeah, we're going to Oxford, right? And it's like, Hey, Mom, Dad, guess what, and then like getting the PSA must've been like an amazing moment. And not just for you, but for your family been like that, you know, life changing, right? That's not just a moment for you. That's a moment for everybody in the family, because it not only gives you the opportunity to study overseas for free, but it also sets you up with a great job when you get back for a couple of years, which is awesome. Did it really take time for that whole? You know, Oxford PSC, double victory for Faith. Did it take that a little bit of time to sink in? Faith 27:44 Definitely. I think when I first got the new hours over the moon, I really jumping for join showing the join my family and friends. Because part of me really never imagined that I would actually get the opportunity to go to Oxford sounds like there's such a prestigious school on the other side of the wall, let alone that and the scholarship. So yeah, it was, it was such a wonderful time to go through, I think and it was really beyond what I ever imagined. Yeah, and I must be a huge moment. Podcast Host 28:10 Is there anything that you're a little bit nervous about by sending, you know, a place I've Oxford, Faith 28:15 I guess one would be how everything there is going to be so different. And I'm going to have to reveal my communities from scratch back to like square one. So I hope that that will be a good time, you know, where I can make really meaningful good friendships and that I hope Africa to cope with the academic rigor as well. Because for my course, talking to some seniors, they said that we usually have the right, perhaps a one to two essays every single week for like, every single term. So that's like a huge commitment to, I guess, balance. Also, because I don't want my life to just revolve around Academy or, like, the whole reason why I want to go overseas was also to experience a different culture. So I think another thing would be considering how I condense you know, that hectic school lot as I still going out there and seeing the world while I'm overseas. Podcast Host 29:05 Yeah. Have you ever been to Oxford? Your vein on campus? Faith 29:08 Not to Oxford itself? Because I've been to was London School. scholarship A while back? Podcast Host 29:15 Yeah, I visited Oxford in September. Oh, Faith 29:18 how was it? Podcast Host 29:20 The whole town pretty much revolves around Oxford. But like, I think the thing that struck me about Oxford is just, it was similar in a way to New York, in that if you walk around the streets of New York, every corner you go to is that oh my god. I remember this building was in that movie. And I know this building because that story is from this particular building, and like just so much history. And I think that's the same kind of thing with Oxford like you go, and you can say why JRR Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings and he was an Oxford student. And so the all souls college is got how many towers, two towers and when he was in the library, writing the book of the things called the Redmond reading room might be wrong. please correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. So out the window, he could see the two towers. And that's what he called the second book. And just near that CS Lewis wrote Narnia, and there is a door there with the Atlanta lion on the door. And then up above it is the little fawn tumnus. I don't know if you've ever read Narnia. But yeah, I love it. Yeah. So there's the Lions Head and aslin. Right, up above right is like a little 400. And then just next to it is the lamppost. So when they open the door to Narnia, first thing they say is the lamppost, that lamppost is there. And I was like, This is so cool, right? You know, like these, these amazing authors are coming up with these amazing ideas and stories. Some of these amazing authors, were just looking around the campus of Oxford, just saying what they say and turning it into into words in a book. So yeah, there's a lot of like, really cool students, a lot of really cool stories do the Oxford tour, it'd be my suggestion, like just trying to learn and appreciate the history. Faith 31:04 I think it's so amazing to see his show was coming alive right before your eyes. And the fact that also was a savage? What, over 900 years ago in Yeah, well, 1096, or something that's insane to think, Oh, yeah. And you're walking along the same pavements as these great minds that have been in history, it's such a wild thought Podcast Host 31:23 it is, I think it's a great place to to certainly mix with a very high caliber of students from all around the world, in terms of the role of visual arts, in a world that is increasingly focused on STEM, what do you think is the role of Fine Arts, the arts in general, in the future of work? Faith 31:42 I think that it's something that makes the world a lot more colorful. And it's one of the things that gives mankind so much about humanity, you know, I believe that arts, it kind of helps to capture a snapshot of the time that we are in, whether it's like a moment in history, or even our current situation, because I think that the study shows that concession society will situations and issues that people are going through, and the toll from such a human lens. So for example, you will compare, for example, like a painting, or a sculpture that was made during this era, it will have these certain connotations, and this whole rich culture that is behind the story and concept that the artist comes up with, as well as his own personal touch, through his own interpretations, and even his physical presence that has been upon the work. I think that is something that is so powerful, it really captures that whole moment in history for something that generations down the road can look back on, and 32. And I think that arts is all of these things that are so universal, it doesn't matter what language you might speak, or what cultural background you come from, it's it's almost like a language all in itself that anyone can look to, and relate and find their own personal connections to. And I think that's really something that is so valuable. And it's something that is so important, even as time passes. And even as society changes so much. I think that the art City Hall is such an important space in our world. And it's not something that should ever be given up. Podcast Host 33:11 Got the passion going there, I could see that that's something that's like really near and dear to you. That was like getting on the pulpit type of thing and pre preaching the benefit of arts, which I think is awesome. Like, I think, yeah, there's definitely a place for arts and I think a lot of students need to be reassured if they are passionate about art, that that is, you know, they do have a role in the future, whether it be in a career, it might not necessarily be the career path, they thought maybe it's a a, you know, addition, like you're doing like psychology plus arts or something like that. Or it could just be arts in general, but either way, like, I feel like they need to hear a voice like yours, to reassure them that no, like, if you love arts keep doing it because it is so important. It does have a place in our society and a very, very important one at that. Is there any way that students would be able to follow along with your journey to Oxford? Faith 34:06 I guess I'm one place that I might be updating is over Instagram, if you want to. I guess you can follow my Instagram but I'm Faith Lee that's Faith Leyy. Podcast Host 34:16 We might put that in the show notes then. But Faith. It's been awesome chatting. Faith 34:20 I really thankful for letting me come on to the show. Yeah, I think it's Yeah, it's really nice to have been able to meet with you and talk with you. Podcast Host 34:27 It's been my pleasure, Faith. Enjoy the trip to Oxford, and we look forward to hearing more from you soon.

Wrapping up 2020! Jamie and Alex on Lessons Learned and College Admissions

🗓 DEC 24, 2020

See transcript

Alex Cork 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex cork and today I chat with my co host, Jamie Beaton. It's almost the end of the year, we're wrapping up a great 25 to 30 interviews that we've conducted so far with the top of the class. And we're just kind of going through what we learned was one of the things that stood out to us, and obviously chatting about the recent college admissions as well. I hope you've enjoyed the episode so far. Hope you've been getting a lot out of it. Make sure to subscribe, make sure to share it with your friends. And we look forward to having more fantastic episodes in 2021. Let's get to the chat between myself and Jamie Beaton. Hey, Jamie, how you doing? Jamie Beaton 00:55 Good, good. Wow, almost Christmas time crazy to see how the years flown by just getting some final presents wrapped up under the tree. What about you? Alex Cork 01:03 Doing the same thing. I mean, Melbourne is coming out of the COVID lockdown, and we're doing pretty well here. And I think it's the first time we've had a Christmas tree in a while as well, to be honest. So looking forward to Christmas. I know it's been a really long year for everyone. But obviously like the Top of the Class has been a really interesting learning process for me in particular. And I know you've been working with like high achieving students for a long time. But you got the opportunity to chat with Ben Zhang as well. And you who else did you interview? Jamie Beaton 01:32 I also spoke with Soumil as well. Yeah, and John Key as well, yeah, that was really fun, I'm getting that you hit insights, I think kicking things off was really good, because, you know, he went from basically a stay at home, you know, what kind of government funded home with a single mother and when he was very young, and then he went to a public school, and then ended up being of course, Prime Minister of New Zealand and you know, making 10s of millions on Wall Street. And so that story of kind of, you know, the end to end impact of education was very inspiring. Alex Cork 02:05 Yeah, I think it's always good to get some perspective and where like that education journey can take you. But I know from my side, chatting to a lot of the students, I've probably done like 25-30 interviews now with some amazing students from around the world. And it's really challenged, I guess, my views and my perceptions of what high achievers quote unquote, actually are, and and what kind of drives them. And I think one of the things that I'm starting to see is like, there's common threads from my side, it's a big thing, from your perspective, what you see is common threads with all the students that you've worked with, in terms of US and UK applications, but some of the common threads that I tend to save from the students is particularly self learning, and the ability to kind of like go above and beyond the school curriculum, like they find an interest. And they follow that down a significantly long rabbit hole, right. And, you know, they're, they're not just kind of like googling how to something rather, they're like going into Google Scholar, and they're kind of reading research papers, and they're talking to people finding communities, and they're doing that all have their own back. And I feel like that's one of the big differences between one of these big common threads that makes these students so far and above what I guess the common student would be, and instead of just found a passion, Jamie Beaton 03:19 I couldn't agree more. And it really feels to me like there are students who have an interest, but then kind of hit a wall, so to speak, and to stop exploring, versus students who know how to keep digging to the next level, whether that be you know, hopping into the regeneron science competition, or whether it be doing the Olympiad, or whether it just be joining an interesting slack community that, you know, enables you to really probe deeper into a topic, I think the thing that always I come back to honestly, is you can go pretty far by yourself, but you can go so much further with even just two or three other like minded people helping you, you know, I guess shine a light on the path forwards. So I think about, for example, Bintang who bribed and the chemistry Olympiad, in the biology Olympiad. And, you know, he was able to push well beyond what anyone had done, you know, within his high school in New Zealand, and he, you know, really, I think, exemplified that idea of, you know, pushing the pushing the pushing deeper. And I think it's also an important trait, you know, we've sent more than 40 kids to Stanford through crimson, of course, and a number of them, you know, they really do demonstrate this intellectual vitality without pushing to explore things you can only access in the high school. And so an admissions officer will see the student and I'll think, Wow, like, this person's obviously got a clear passion for this, because they've just they've just really gone so far beyond what you normally expect of a high school student. So I couldn't agree more. And I think the other thing I'd add to that is, you don't just get, you know, that's coming through through, you know, through academics, but it's this little characteristic that helps to build entrepreneurs because entrepreneurs inevitably have to keep overturning wars and obstacles to keep getting to the next hurdle. That's unsurprising to me that many of these students are also doing quite entrepreneurial projects as well outside of academics. Alex Cork 05:01 Yeah, I think it's what you said about that support networks having like two or three people to help them out. That's really interesting. And I've been talking to students about like, what role their parents play, or who is the five people, they spend the most time with that kind of quote about you being the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And I think in the majority of cases, students have said that their parents have been super supportive of their extracurriculars and their other passions. I think that's a really big tip for students, as well as parents is that, you know, while school is really important, and getting a grade, and a score is really important, when you see that your child has that kind of all, as a student, if you've got that passion, it's worth pursuing. And if it's about having that conversation with your parents, I know some of our students, and some of the guests on the show, have said that they've had like that sit down conversation with mom and dad to say, hey, look, this is what I'm interested in. It's not necessarily related to a score at school, right, it's not going to help me get a better SAT score, or a better ATAR score or whatever it might be. But it will kind of make me a more interesting person and make me more interested in what I'm learning at school. And I think a lot of the students that we've had on the show, they can see that what they're doing outside of school and their extracurriculars is making them a better student within the school walls as well. And I think once they explain that to their parents, their parents are willing truly on board. Jamie Beaton 06:19 I think kind of building on that. The other thing that I've noticed on lots of these students is some initial success can really give the students a lot of confidence that propels them forwards and quite a big way. So I think about the student who doesn't who's just kind of averaged everything at school, and doesn't really have an identity built around any one thing. But I see some of these students for examples on a call recently with a girl who was in the Forbes 30, under 30, in Asia Pacific, when she was 18. And I think she's 14 now, but then a big one just fueled her confidence and pushed it into all kinds of deeper things within, you know, the tech world, building apps, etc. And I think it's really important for youngsters who are ambitious to find some niche, they can dominate and doesn't, it doesn't need to be math Olympiad, it could be, you know, quite an obscure activity, but just go with the process of competing, you know, developing your skills in the area, you know, winning, it just kind of puts you in a, I think, a high for mental state than somebody who's never experienced that kind of challenge and what it feels like to go all the way. So I think for many of our listeners, I'd really challenge you hitting into 2021 to think about, you know, what is one niche? You know, what can you dominate? What, what, what activity can you pick up, you can really be best in your country, or even higher. Alex Cork 07:31 I totally agree. Actually, I was chatting to Mahesh, whose episode hasn't come out yet. But he won the child genius Australia, and he's a Crimson student as well. And he memorized an entire deck of cards in 30 minutes, and was able to recite the entire deck in less than two minutes. And he did it with a really interesting method involving FIFA and soccer players, and all this kind of thing, which is all going to be in the episode. But it was really interesting that he said, one of the most common questions that he gets from students and other people is like, how did you do that deck of card things, right. And I was like, it's interesting how we use the word genius, a lot of the time, and a lot of the students that we have had on the show have been labeled as a genius by their friends and peers and whatnot. And he's like, Well, you know, sometimes it's about having a really native skill. I mean, IMO, like international Maths Olympiad. That's like a really general one. And a lot of students know about it. Obviously, winning gold is an amazing thing. And I know, we're going to have a couple of gold medalists on the show next year. But it's interesting how like, you could solve a Rubik's Cube really fast. Or you can be really good at memorizing a deck of cards, or some kind of like pretty niche thing that you might be all of a sudden, as you say, the best in the country or the best in the world in and everyone's like, Oh my gosh, genius. And then it's about how you kind of cope with that title, like how that title sits with you, whether it negatively impacts your schooling and puts pressure on you, or whether it gives you confidence to do more and better things in different areas as well. I think it's really interesting to say how a lot of the students that we have on the show have gone really deep into one particular area, and have been, as you said, like us that confidence to get better in a lot of other areas as well. Jamie Beaton 09:12 I think it's really well said and once you have found that particular niche area, I think it also tends to propel you into leadership roles and schools. Well, you know, because that initial success often gets you you know, up on stage and assembly, you know, a lot of peer respect. And that inevitably means when you create clubs, other things, you've got a bit of, you know, legitimacy behind you, and that I can turn into you know, being head boy head go. I think of the student, Helen Wu, who actually I think of quite a lot when I meet younger students because she joined us when she was about 13 or 14 and your backbencher goes through the head girl of a school but she was quite new to leadership at that point. She hadn't had much experience. And I think about kind of the set of activities she went through. You know, she got some wins getting into, for example, Harvard and Yale Model UN and other types of activities, and then she ended up being the head girl and now she's at Stanford doing computer science. And I think that's also really exciting. I think when you can get wins when you're 13, 14, 15. And that hit you up before other kids sort of taking high school that seriously in many parts of the world. Alex Cork 10:13 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One thing I've also been interested in, and I think I'm going to throw this question to you as well. But it's really challenged my perceptions of what student achievement is. And some of the students that we've interviewed, and Ellen, in Episode Two comes to mind, jack Byrne, and his charity fundraising comes to mind and a couple other students as well, who are working on real world problems. And I often ask them the question of like, Do you ever feel kind of out of place? If you're like a 1415 year old tackling this world problem? Do you ever feel like there's must be other people who are older and more experienced than you working on this problem as well, who probably have already kind of thought of what you're thinking of that type of thing? And it's interesting, I remember Kara said, this is well, Kara, one, the 3M Young Scientists Challenge. She said, well, I hadn't seen it, you know, in store yet, I hadn't actually seen it physically, she created a nano silver liquid bandage. It's like I hadn't seen it that day before. And then if someone else was working on it, then it's a race, right? Like, I don't care if the other person who's working on it is like twice my age, it's a race to get it out there. And so she just kind of set a mind to working on it. But it was also that mindset of like, a lot of the students believe that they are the right person at the right time to work at this problem. And I think a lot of students kind of get stuck in that. Well, I'm just a teenager kind of mindset where I think a lot of the students we have on the show, are not really burdened with that mindset. They're like, I've got a great skill set, I've got an interest in this area, Why won't I be the person to solve it? Like, you look at Fionn, right, who won the Google Science Fair, extracting microplastics from water? And he was like, why can't it be made to help solve this problem? So and I think they also kind of look at it as not necessarily trying to come up with a solution to a global problem, but just being a part of the solution. So they're not trying to kind of burden themselves with that, oh, I need to kind of solve everything that just say no, I'm just going to contribute to the solution as well. So I think that that mindset of like, understanding that you as a student have like a very real, very useful skill set, and that you don't need to solve everything you just need to contribute to the solution can really help you go like very far beyond what you're doing at school and really help you contribute to society on a global scale. And is that something that you see in some of the students that you know we have through Crimson is that kind of like students who who are really going above and beyond the student mindset, and see themselves as being able to contribute at a, at a really big scale? Jamie Beaton 12:44 I would be just taking a step back for a second kind of, from my own experience, building Crimson around the world, I think what you're describing is so important to any entrepreneur, because whenever you start a problem, and you have vision, you can never achieve the vision, you know, quickly, it's the problem is always too big, too challenging. So you need to break that up into you know, a sliver of a sliver of sliver, and hit that problem. And society rewards you for, you know, validation of a part of a strategy, right. So in our case, we first of all started helping ambitious high schools in Auckland, and then we got some good results, and they were able to raise some investment, money and move to more markets. The same thing is true for high school students, when they you know, they can't solve global poverty, but they can do an interesting social impact initiative within their backyard and get some quick wins, you know, get some media coverage for that correction. We theme as a bit of a leader, wasn't their community, recruit more members get the ball rolling? I think the ability to slice up the problem and then and then really figure out what strand is most approachable is a, you know, mission critical skill, for sure. And on your question about, you know, I guess Crimson, I do definitely see this characteristic across many of our students, I think it's very important for students who are aiming for these ambitious goals like Harvard, Stanford, etc, to, you know, find some leadership initiatives, they can commit to early to find the social impact problem they're really passionate about that really motivates them. And I see time and time again, that those that find those passions quickly, and find sort of a way to attack the problem, you know, get a lot more momentum, and those sort of sort of a bit lost in the dark. Alex Cork 14:12 Yeah, well, just on passions, because I know that students everywhere get told to quote unquote, find your passion. And I chatted about this with Hannah, about like, how to find your post school career pathway type of thing. And it's that idea that passions don't arrive overnight. It's one of those things that if you start looking into something you're curious about, and something that you're interested in and spend some time with it, it will over the course of six months, nine months, maybe a year or so become a proper passion of yours like that will become your niche that will become your area of expertise. I think a lot of students kind of look at them sells, you know, in the mirror and they say what am I passionate about, but they haven't yet found anything that they're really interested or curious about, or they've got something they're interested or curious about, but they've kind of stopped at that level. Right. They're like, Oh, I'm good at maths, I guess that's what I'm interested in. And they haven't really kind of gone above and beyond that, and said, Well, how can I use this skill in other areas to solve other problems or whatever it might be? But yeah, I think that whole kind of concept of students needing to have a passion is a challenging one for a lot of students. And I think one of the things that I've seen on the the guests that we've had on the top of the class is that they've been able to kind of find their area of interest, first, the area of curiosity first, and then after six months, nine months, a year or more, it becomes that passion. So I think that's like a very key takeaway from me so far from being the host, or co host, I should say, is that there's a lot of students who feel like because they don't have a passion that they must somehow be value or whatnot, but sometimes it's just starting with your interest or curiosity. That's the best place to start. Jamie Beaton 15:50 Yeah, and I think this is very well said, I also feel like when you don't have that clear passion, yet, there's students who proactively go and try and find one. Yeah, and there are students who kind of wait for them to come in and sort of smack them, you know, like, smack themselves in the face, accidentally. So in the first note, what I often recommend students to do is go out there and think, Okay, what are the 10 things the 10, most likely things that you could potentially be interested in. And it's very rare students got an idea, often they know what they don't like. And then you go see that cause of different people could be Crimson mentors, you know, an owl in our community around the world could be people in the community, the parents know, whatever. And that helps to do more filtering, and helps to tune out some things and get us into what actually could be quite exciting. And so I'm a really big advocate of active discovery. You also can seek active discovery through certain books, like for example, if you understand artificial intelligence, you could read AI superpowers, figure out if you really like it. You know, if you're interested in finance, you could read, you know, Ray Dalio, his book principles, somebody who has figured out what you like, I would say those haven't found a passion yet. That's all good. But you know, you should begin the active discovery process rather than just kind of passively waiting. Because the faster you have a bit of a niche, you know, the more momentum you can get quickly. Alex Cork 17:00 Yeah, 100% 100%? Well, I think it's been very interesting to say kids, who I shouldn't say kids that they are young people, but they do come across as much older, more mature, many. But it's interesting that they've often found their interest and curiosity and build upon that, through meeting people networking, and that kind of mentoring side of things. And a lot of students I found are on LinkedIn. And it's been a fascinating, well, obviously, possibly, they're, they're mostly on LinkedIn, because I'm finding most of our guests on LinkedIn. That's where I'm going to define a lot of our student guests. But it's been really interesting for me to see how many students are on the platform, how the demographic of that platform has changed a lot. And also, as you mentioned, as well, like slack as a community group, where a lot of students are getting on there. I mean, five years ago, all students who were you know, talented, and doing really great things were meeting on Facebook groups, like getting outside of the school bubble and meeting on there and chatting on there. But it does seem like there's been a pretty seismic shift to both LinkedIn and then slack slash discord, to try and kind of find these global communities of students. And that really helps them get outside of their bubble and really helps them deepen their passion or interest and learn cool things like AI and machine learning, coding, these kinds of things that they probably won't see at school in a typical day, really helps them get outside of their bubble and find those communities. So yeah, I think that that whole kind of shift, like if listeners are there thinking, Well, how do these students get started? And how do these students find like minded people? It's probably because they're not on tik tok? Yeah, like, you know, some of the students I've interviewed, they're like, Yeah, no, 100%, I'm not on Tik Tok, but they are doing things like Slack, LinkedIn, and to a lesser extent, Instagram, and they're networking through there as well. So I feel like that's an interesting kind of angle to take in terms of finding a community. Jamie Beaton 18:48 Yeah, totally. What I'd say to that is, I also do see some people that probably spend more time, quote, unquote, networking and doing it's a fine balance, for example, take in Dang, he probably didn't spend much time at all on many of the social media channels, he put his head down, figure out as nation just really worked hard at it and had a couple of people two or three around the world he'd go back and forth with. So I think you don't have to necessarily be spending all the time on these platforms. Sometimes a lot of young people, they make the mistake of sort of like overselling kind of, you know, some pretty basic activities, they've done spending a lot of time promoting that online. And when they could use that time to further their, you know, their actual achievement. So I think it's a balance, you know, you don't want to be sort of spending all your, you know, free time on these things. But you also, you know, don't sort of operate in a silo in your room. So I think this delicate balance, you probably want to find one or two online communities. Great. And you can really give to and get back from and then yeah, then you can go hard with with the niche you've found. Alex Cork 19:42 Yeah, absolutely. I think there's an interesting balance between advocacy and action. And I was talking about that with another student Adara, who's going to be on the show in a couple of weeks when her episode comes out. But yeah, she was like, advocacy and action work really well together. But she was in that kind of fight. Where she felt like advocacy was, you know, which was networking and education was very beneficial. But she didn't feel like there was no action behind that. And then she went totally the other way and did all action, and kind of drop the advocacy part. And she was like, Oh, hang on a sec, they actually do work well together. So that students are in that kind of phase where they are doing more networking and kind of education around whatever they're interested in, that's great. But there is also certainly a room for you to take action and start an organization and start raising money or start actually having some tangible results around what you're interested in. And I think that's what we're seeing from a lot of the guests on the show that they've gone beyond the initial education side of things. And they're actually seeing that they can take action. And then they might combine them a little bit later on as well. So yeah, it's really interesting to kind of see how these students come to be on the show, and like their profiles that they have pretty amazing, but usually involves some kind of action that they've taken along the way, which is pretty impressive. It's admission season at the moment. We've got I mean, people think it's Christmas season, but for many kids around the world, their biggest present. Yeah, it's admission season, the biggest present, they're going to get as an acceptance note from these top universities from around the world. Is there any kind of trends or you know, things to note that you've seen from university admissions in the early decision round? That is notable or different? I know, obviously, this year, there was a lot of students who applied because there was no requirement for testing due to COVID. Like they dropped the SAT and a lot of these universities, has that been a factor in affecting admissions at all? Jamie Beaton 21:32 Well, I guess Firstly, I'd say I'm pretty proud of the Crimson team here. We've landed offers from basically all the top schools that have come out so far Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Dartmouth, Columbia, brown, you can The list goes on. And so we've really, I think, had a great year for our Crimson kids around the woods. We're very proud of them. This is this is Christmas present around here. Yeah, as far as key trends, what I've seen basically is, as you mentioned, there's been a rise of between 3010. Some cases, given the number of applicants, many of those haven't, for example, so the early admission rate plans from you know, basically around 20% or so back in 2014. To Simpson or so. And the earlier on this year, off the back of the pack, there are so many more applicants applying. What that has meant is that many schools sort of don't know what they're going to expect to the regular outs, they're being quite conservative in the early round, taking less students who haven't had way more applicants, but actually took less students this year than they normally do in the early round. The other thing is, some people were debating whether or not test optional would change, who gets accepted. And it kind of has because 25% of people that got into some of the Ivy's didn't have any standardized tests. And generally those applicants have some potentially, you know, disadvantaged background, or there's some context behind why they couldn't take the kids. And so a lot of schools have been celebrating their recruitment in those areas, which is definitely something to be applauded. But on a go forward basis. There's an interesting question as to, you know, the role of standardized testing. In general, it's still a good idea to take because basically, if you don't take it, and you'll know you're from a community or school in which most people do, they'll raise questions about why you haven't done it. But that's an interesting trend to note. So a lot of our students are really happy with the early results, you know, others are writing their applications ready for the regular round. But it's definitely a very exciting and unique year for the college admissions season. I also had briefly touched on we we had a company or hence a couple days ago, and we had a really talented student of ours from Brazil. He was on a scholarship through crimson and had gotten to Stanford, which is pretty life changing for music came from pretty low income community. And he had done the full first year of Stanford remote online. And it was fascinating to hear him talk about that experience Stanford and run a really impressive remote first year, lots of interesting online collaboration tools, the book many great friendships. But it was interesting to hear about those kids that had sort of had the first year of college through COVID. I fortunately, I suspect, fingers crossed lots of achievers just got an early cycle, you know, we'll be able to go in person come 2021 timber, given the printer, the exact things and everything. But definitely an interesting time in the college admissions world for those that have gotten in, and also those who are now applying and even current college students. Alex Cork 24:11 Yeah. And it's a super interesting time. And I know that a lot of the students that we have on the show, they might be 14 or 15 years old, but they already kind of have a rough idea of which universities they want to go to or what they might want to study after school. My main thing on that is don't necessarily buy into the question of what you want to be when you grow up. If you're a student out there, like if you hear that kind of question, just kind of respond with Well, this is what I'm actually doing now. Like don't actually wait to grow up before you start, you know, working on environmental science or working on coding or machine learning. Like that's a another big thing that I've seen from top of the class guess is that they don't wait until after school to start doing the things that they see themselves doing in the future. They kind of make a start now. And a really kind of having a one eye on the future and seeing where could their profile take them potentially Jamie Beaton 25:00 Well said Alex, and I got to say, you know, have a Merry Christmas to the family. Have a great time. You know, I think it's been really fun building this out with you over the last little while. Many, many families have found this to be a really inspiring, you know, voice of direction for them during a very challenging time. And I think it's only going to get more exciting for top of the class and a wonderful student community around the world in 2021. Alex Cork 25:23 Yeah, well, we're interviewing the Times Magazine, kid of the year Gitanjali Rao on Monday, my time and Sunday, her time. And then we've got amazing interviews coming up in January as well, with some global kind of student celebrities. I think a lot of students would be familiar with their stories. So we really look forward to sharing those episodes in the coming months. But yeah, Jamie, you stay safe there. I hope all our listeners are staying safe and well over the Christmas period. I know it's going to be really challenging one for a lot of people. But yeah, just maintain that kind of positivity and, you know, stay safe and keep well. Jamie Beaton 25:55 Chat soon Alex, have a good one.

Ep #21 How to Learn 14 Coding Languages and Run a Global Blog

🗓 DEC 23, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and in this episode I chat with 16 year old, Satvik Tripathi. Satvik is passionate about computer science and artificial intelligence. We chat about learning 14 different coding languages, being a Google Developer and leading a global student led organization with a mission to bring AI and tech to the world. Let's chat with Satvik Tripathi. Hi, Satvik welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners who are all around the world a little bit about yourself? Satvik 00:51 First of all, thank you so much for having me here. I'm Satvik. I'm from Lucknow, India, and I'm a high school senior. And I am very passionate about computer science, artificial intelligence. I have my own nonprofit international organization. I am the head and founder of fit. And I am into research and artificial intelligence app development. And I really look forward to working in some research lab in future as they get into college and hopefully contributing to this world. Podcast Host 01:24 Well, yeah, are you already are doing some great contributions to the world? And we'll get into that. But how old are you just for our reference? Satvik 01:30 I'm 16. Podcast Host 01:31 16 years old, and you're interested in AI and all these amazing things that I don't know too much about? Because I didn't really do that kind of thing. Well, that kind of thing wasn't really around when I was at school. So that's kind of showing my age a little bit. But we want to talk about you and you're interested in AI. Where did it all start from? Satvik 01:48 It's a very funny story. I am a huge Marvel fan. Podcast Host 01:51 Me too. Satvik 01:51 Oh, that's great. Yeah. Iron Man 3000. Podcast Host 01:55 Yeah, that's right. Satvik 01:56 So coming from that I am a huge Jarvis fan. I used to sit down for them to TV, and thinking wishing that I could have that Jarvis with me, and bringing the whole possibilities and areas of things I could do with him. And then I've thought of actually, you know, anything you pops into your mind, you just Google it. So I googled how to create jobs. And I got these, you know, long fandom pages. And then, you know, found theories. But that's not what I was looking for. I was looking for something more technical. And then at that point of time, I came across this word artificial intelligence. So this was something which, you know, was my first interaction with artificial intelligence. I tried to, you know, search more about it, learn more about it. And then it was like, a lot of mathematics. Like the first research paper I read, I only got to understand the top four words or five words of the abstract, right. Other than that, I had no clue what was going on. So it took me a lot of time to understand the complexities and topics within AI. I'm currently actually working on a real life job. It's like it's my current project. And it's awesome. It's like on the base level, like, the base level is done, almost done. Maybe in a year or two, it would be like on a basic working. Podcast Host 03:17 If you were to read that abstract again, how much of them would you understand? Satvik 03:21 I wrote a similar abstract and a year ago. Podcast Host 03:24 So yeah, you're not just reading abstracts, you're writing abstracts, and you feel like you've got a real handle on on everything that's involved in AI. But it's I know, it's a super fast developing field. And I feel like teenagers could be on a level playing field compared to someone who is, you know, 30, or 40 years old, because AI is so new, like you've grown up in the age of AI, and a 30, or 40 year old, probably hasn't really grown up and has had to learn it from scratch, and you've learned it from scratch as well. Do you feel like when you interact with the wider community, that you are at a similar kind of level as other people who might be a bit older than you in the field of AI? Satvik 04:05 That really depends on like, what person I'm talking to you. Like, in general, as a fighter in the world. Everybody knows what artificial intelligence is. Like, one of the most basic definitions like I've got, you heard from like, a layman, who is not a researcher working in artificial intelligence is that anything which computers and humans can do, artificial intelligence can do in a simpler way? Right. So this is what like a simple perception of like most people for artificial intelligence, but as a researcher, or winner as a project manager, when I speak to people, we speak on a whole new level, we speak about algorithms, the, you know, how the data set is formed and how the data is distributed. It's a different world. It's a completely different world. It's more into mathematics. The statics, you know, you sometimes have to think about even the humanities fault, like how is the machine Thinking you have to think about the psychology of it. Because at the very origin, which is something Stanford has, even right now, it's called the symbolic system, which was the combination of artificial intelligence, psychology, linguistic cognitive science to actually understand about how the machine is learning. So yeah, it's really up to the knowledge of the other person. But yeah, on a broader terms, you can obviously explain it to them. Podcast Host 05:26 What kind of maths is involved in this? I mean, when you say like, it's got a lot of maths and is it something that you would learn at school? Or is it a completely different kind of maths than what you learned at school? Satvik 05:36 It's a whole lot of math, it's more than calculus, and even calculus, like mostly without any numbers, they are dealing with, like only variables. And like there's a key data. And there's three dimensions of data sets, you know, in n dimension. And then we are finding out about like, the relations between those points. And like, it's a complex mix of the poor mathematics, and the statistics, like understanding the distribution of the data, Podcast Host 06:05 right? So just slow down a little bit on that one. For me, I've actually never seen an algorithm. I know that sounds like a silly question to us. But what does an algorithm actually look like? Is it one line of code? Or one formula that you apply to a large data set? Or is it you know, a large set of coding data, like I described for me what an algorithm looks like. Satvik 06:29 I'll walk you through it. Podcast Host 06:31 Thank you Satvik 06:31 Think about a data set. It contains a number of data. And the data points are set in a way that you have an x AI, which will give you an output in Y, if you put the P of x is the function P of inside. If you put exci then you will get an output Why am I right? Yes, that's you have a data set D which has all these points, till n and number of points. So now, your job is to do what you have to do is that we now take up a new point, say x comma y. And we asked you that if we put the same this new eggs into the old function, where this why would like, so what we do is that we try to understand the pattern in the previous data sets like how x i and Y are related, right? So say if the you put x equals to one and the y is equals to two, then you put x equals two x two equals two and y two becomes four, x three equals to three, y two, y three becomes eight. Yes. So basically, you're seeing that it's growing exponentially. And it's like two to the power n, that becomes a formula for this data set. So you assume that if x equals to n, then if you put a new number that is x in the data set in this function, then possibly the answer of why would lie into the power x, and we just do it in a whole new complex level. Like this is one of the simplest examples, you will never seen data science, right, Podcast Host 08:05 Right. So the algorithms, I'm going to guess for the kind of things that are like when people talk about algorithms, changing the world or big data sets, I'm going to guess the formula is extensive and has like a lot of variables and a lot of different things that it's trying to calculate. And if done successfully, or inputted correctly, then the better it can predict the outcome, right of particular behaviour or whatever you're trying to predict. Satvik 08:32 Exactly. The classified data. Podcast Host 08:34 Yes. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm glad I understood that. But when you were, you know, 13, and you were looking up how to create Jarvis, and you saw that abstract and you didn't really know what was going on? How did you then start to try and figure out what was going on? Like, where do you start when you're 13? And, you know, obviously, the internet is a source of many resources, but many of them are dead ends, many of them are not the level of, you know, 13 year old set, because as I'm sure you are pretty smart, then as you are now, but where did you go to for the places that you wanted to learn how to code and create something like Jarvis? Satvik 09:10 Oh, okay. So it contains various parts, like I come from, like an education system where computer science is not, you know, we just start from an early level, like in most American schools, you have your coding classes, right from your like ninth or 10th grade, I guess. We didn't have that in our school. Like we have computer science in our grade 11. slang for junior year. Yes. And that, too, is not a very competitive class. It's barely you could do anything with that. So when I started, I was at the end of my, you know, freshman year, and was going to enter my sophomore year in high school. And I wanted to create this app. So I had to do three things. I first need to understand coding languages because I had no experience in that. Second, I need to understand the mathematics behind it and turn x Understand, what are these terms that we are frequently using like machine learning, or data science or data points like we are using these terms. So what actually these legends mean? So I started with a course, which is like very close to my heart, and I respect it like even till now, that is CS 50 by Harvard, I guess is one of the largest taking course. So, I mean, Professor David J. Milan, I adore him so much. I still like they released the 2020 version, although I'm an alumni of CST, but I still took it again, because they went live. And I actually met Professor Milan in one of the open sessions, and it was really an honor talking to him. So yeah, cs 50 took me from the very scratch, working with a c++ language to taking me to, you know, SQL, Python. And then as I went forward, I took like online courses, I did not pay for any course because I wasn't looking for certification. So I went to open courses, which was like free, then had the same college level, both Mathematics and Computer Science. And they have course logistics as well open for everyone. So I took like Stanford courses, like cs 221, which is artificial intelligence. Then I took cs 229, in CS 230, by Professor Andrew enshi, on deep learning and machine learning. And then I took like, more and more and more courses. And like till now I've taken like, more than 50 courses. Podcast Host 11:31 Wow. Yeah. All online offering, Satvik 11:34 like in recent years, like Coursera, and edX, started giving out their scholarships and fee waivers. So I started applying from them. So some are like certified, and I've got them I guess, around 25, or 30, certified something like that. Podcast Host 11:50 Well, what was the, you know, beyond the Java's and Marvel interest? What continued to draw you in? Because some students, I'm sure, would look at some of the things that you were looking at, in the early days, right, going back to that abstract, and say, Oh, god, this clearly isn't for me. I can't understand anything here. I'll come back to it in a couple years time or, you know, maybe I'll you learned at university, what was your main motivation to be like, No, no, I want to continue learning this, even though it's really hard. And I don't really know much about the topic. You know, Was there anybody mentoring you at that time? Or was there anybody kind of, you know, a role model that you had that you were like, apart from Iron Man? Was there any other role model that you may have had at the time? Satvik 12:33 No, actually, not. Nobody was like, I guess nobody even knew what I was thinking. Like, even my mom and dad, they're from pharmaceuticals area. I was working on that one. Like, I've got a lot of time for myself, like after school. So these are what I used to after I finished my work. And one of the motivations, as you asked, is, like, when I was searching for artificial intelligence, one program I created I came across was the Google Assistant developer community program. Yes. And since a very young age, almost like since I guess back in 2017, when they first launched Google Assistant in pixel device. I was blown away with that, because it was the nearest possible Redemption of Java's because we have seen theory, but it's not up to that mark. Because what Google Assistant is able to do is far more of the reach of C, because of the, you know, whole data that Google holds. Yes. And it holds all different webpages and stuff in the knowledge it has far more than what Siri has. So I was really intrigued by this program, I went on to read on the documentations. And the same thing happened, as happened with the abstract, I didn't get a word. I started with a few lines and did with a few lines, I got to just that this is something very complicated. And I need to learn about it. So the program I had to made was on a platform called dialogue flow, which is a chatbot making programmer. Like it's a whole developmental suite. It was like pretty tough at first, but YouTube got my back, I was searching like how to do this in dialogue flow, how to do this in dialogue flow, what is dialogue flow? I saw a couple of their examples. So my learning was more in application way. Like I was seeing the code and I was trying to understand, okay, what does this line do? And what if I change to this, what will happen? So more experiment to a learning rather than just understanding things? So we are that really helped me pick a pace. And you know, as I was moving forward, like this is something about computer science. And I guess in most of the fields that once you start getting an output, there's nothing holding you back. Like since the day you start printing hello world on your screen. He has, like you get a few and like I've created something. He has a human being. That's great. feeling to have because as they say that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it can change form. And here you have created something out of a few lines of code. And it was really fascinating than how much you could hold. And now here I was working on something which could talk to me, it say my name, and you know, chitchat with me. So it was a whole different experience. It was like creating a body out of some line of code and personalizing it as I wanted. Podcast Host 15:28 Fantastic. Talk to me about the Google Assistant developer, because you became one at the age of 13. How did you do that? Is it something that you had to apply for or you said, you were struggling to read that as well. And it's a bit of an uphill battle, but you ended up being part of the program. So talk us through that. Satvik 15:44 So it was like I said, coding eligible, like a child learning. It took me like seven or eight months to understand everything, and be proficient with the, you know, API's and everything. It's not like something you have to apply for. It was a limited time period. Program, which was specifically for Google Assistant when it was launched for, like, the Google devices will launch the Google Home mini to Google Home best and all. And it was like, it's basically to create a community to attract more people, and make them more engaged with the Google Assistant and how they could interact. So I started building a kind of app, which kids could have fun with. So my app was automate Marvel trivia, a Marvel guy again? Yes. So it was it was something like it's a game show, like the AI would ask you like a different set of question. It's a trivia questions, and you will have to answer them, the AI would try and count off, you're like, how many correct you got how many wrong you built, and we'll give you a score at the end. And like, it's like even one player could play more than one player could play. And then it's asked like, do you want to play again, and if you want to play again, the level of you know, your questions increases. It's like, it gets harder. And it's really fun. I played it a lot. Podcast Host 17:02 Yeah, hang on. But don't you program the questions? Or is the AI pulling the questions out of Marvel. Like, where's the questions coming from? Satvik 17:11 Okay, you have to create a database, or you'll have from a question. I actually there was some website, I don't remember the name I asked. And they had these questions on their website. And I had to ask them, but can I use these questions because they had privacy policies from them? And I spoke to them, can I get these for my app? And they were like, happy? Do you know how the data set contains more than, like, 700 questions? And at a point of time, even though I'm the developer, I don't know the answer to half of them. So what I lost you remember, even though my huge mouth and there's so many small, small details that are way too tough for anybody to you know, remember, as I, you know, went forward, created this app, it was well and functioning. I then got it published on Google Assistant. And I don't know how, like, more and more and more people started using it. And every night, the analytics would change, like it would include the previous day's record. And every night, I used to see like how many people actually played. And I reached 1 million, and within a year, it's something like people reach in three or four years. And I was doing like seven or eight months. So seeing that Google gave me like Google Home device, Google t shirt, $200 per month cloud credit. And like, invite to like all Google io, Google App Fest, and everything. Podcast Host 18:36 That's awesome. So basically, you created this, like, really cool Marvel trivia game, you know, after seven or eight months, Google's like, Hey, we're taking notice of how many people are playing this game, like here's, you know, some encouragement to keep on developing new apps, right? How many hours would it take to put together something like that? Right, like the Ultimate Marvel trivia, once you've got the data set? How long would it take you to code something like that? Satvik 19:00 I remember, I was working like 10 hours a day, almost a month. I get Okay. Podcast Host 19:05 Sorry. That's not like something that you can just sit down with a couple lines. And use Wait, right? There are a lot of like testing that you have to do in between? Satvik 19:13 Yeah, it's really tough to get published on Google Assistant. Because it's not that you just check it, you send it out for them to check it. Right. And they run your app, they go through various tests. And then they tell you that this is wrong. This is not working. This command is not working. My app actually got like various rejections, like before it actually got published. Podcast Host 19:36 So that's when you were 14, when you were making this almost almost. Right, right. And what have you learned or continued to learn since then? Because obviously, like that level of coding, I don't know. Was that like beginner level, do you think or is that kind of intermediate level coding? What kind of level was required to make something like that? And what kind of level are you at now do you feel with your skills in that area? Satvik 20:00 It was close supervision but not very proficient because I couldn't cry all the codes like an understand what am I doing here? Something's like, I think like this program is doing it like that. So I should write this code, right. And I didn't have a complete sense of what I'm doing. But now after two years down the line, yes, I am like proficient in more than 14 languages. And I could write in any other language, and even explain it to you what I'm doing and how I'm doing this. And I could write like, hundreds and 1000s of lines of code. I'm enjoying it now. It's Yes, it's more easy to, for me to write in Julia or five and then writing in English, Podcast Host 20:41 learning 14 different languages. Is that unusual? And why did you decide to learn so many? Satvik 20:48 But yeah, it's unusual. Like even like professional developers are like, into three, four or five languages, which they are like proficiently working in. I had no clue what computer sciences, I tried to, you know, discover every aspect of it. And, you know, to discover every aspect, it requires a different skill set a different language. So, as I went into development, I learned a different language, web development, a different language, but then AI, l and a whole bunch of different languages. And you know, I try to work in projects in your real life project, open source projects, and help me understand these languages more, work with them more, proficiently. That's how I like came in contact with them. Podcast Host 21:29 Does learning one language help you learn other languages? or do some languages have like a closer relationship than others? Because I really don't know much about coding languages at all. But is there like, perhaps even you know, the mother of all languages that gives you an advantage in learning every single other one? Or is it all a little bit different? Satvik 21:49 paths, like different syntax is like, you have the different way of writing each language. Um, yeah, they are mostly similar. I won't say like, exactly similar. But it's like some languages are just bizarre in writing, like c++, which is like one of the oldest languages. And it's like using terminals, or file sharing, file management systems or operating system but encoded in it. And they are really hard to read, like, what is the quarter trying to do, as the generation moves forward, and you go to a new language, it gets easier for you to understand, like in c++ to just print hello world, it would take at least five lines to write, but in like bytes, and it would take you like one line, just print hello world. That's the difference. It gets easier. It actually motivates you, oh, this is easier than c++. This is so easy to do this. Podcast Host 22:40 So once you've learned c++, everything looks pretty easy after that, or zero, at least. Satvik 22:46 Yeah, this is what motivated me like, if you are, you know, proficient with c++, and Java, I guess you would be, you know, good enough with any other language. And even some languages are pretty common. Like if you know, MATLAB, then you almost know Julia. So because Julia actually, is a compilation of all languages, like the developers of Julia said that they wanted to make a language which has the best of everything. So it's like, it has the syntax of different languages like, which is the most efficient way to code being the most powerful at the very same time, Podcast Host 23:21 yarn, or Julia, you said it was your favorite language to use. And I can see why that's the case. Now, actually, I was falling with Twitter thread, where a student asked, What's everyone's favorite coding language? And no one mentioned Julia yet, because I know it's fairly new. But I was, like I said, If static was here, he would be saying Julia right now. But everyone was like, you know, c++, or Python, or JavaScript, and these kind of things like, I've never learned a coding language, how long would you think it would take me or an average person to learn a new coding language for the very first time to go from like, absolutely knowing nothing at all, to being, you know, fairly proficient in something like c++, Satvik 24:00 it's up to the dedication, and like the amount of work you're putting in. This is just like maths, you know how to write things. And that's like one class, and then you just try to practice it. Like, there's a course on YouTube, like an eight hour long course. Just, you know, if you do that course, and do another, like five hours of practice with everything that he has taught, that you will be good to go and Pat, like good to go. You will understand everything. And just keep practicing so that you do not forget what this string does or what this command does. It's pretty similar to mathematics. Podcast Host 24:34 Does knowing 14 languages, though, does that get messy for you in terms of like, does your brain sometimes start trying to write in a different code that's not suited to what you're trying to do? Just because you know, too many? Satvik 24:47 Yeah, it happens. Like, if you're like doing coding in one language, and you start doing like any, any other language, you know, because you're typing so fast, because you have to write so many lines of code. This kind of gets into your Like, final chord that you have to press this button after you end this line, you say semicolon. And it semicolon doesn't work with every language, they have, like somehow backslash. So you have to put backslash. And even if you you know, missed that even once the whole code would go out of air. So that happens, like if you're working in one language, and you simultaneously if you're working on the project, which has any other language they're working on, it sometimes get a bit messy, but on the longer run, it's very beneficial. Because I know some of the, like companies and like research groups who interview, they say that we are going to give you an example problem, and you have to solve it. And they won't tell you what language it is written in. And they say that it would be in the top 20 languages. And it's like you should know all of them to you know, actually crack it and find what's wrong the code. So in the longer run, I guess it's a good thing to do. Podcast Host 25:56 Right to Know, all those different codes, right? Yeah, it's a good thing to do. How many coding languages actually are there? I mean, I'm sure new ones are getting developed all the time. But is there an estimate that you have roughly as to how many are out there? Because when I heard 14, I thought that was a lot. But you just said there's a top 20, which implies that is there Satvik 26:14 a lot. But yeah, they're like new ones coming in every day. And people are actually making new languages as per the system requirements. Also, like, if they're doing a particular task, you will have different language for it. So yeah, people are customizing languages, and using it just for their systems for their networks. And yeah, there's, I guess, hundreds and 1000s of languages? I don't know. Podcast Host 26:38 Yeah. But yeah, it's probably good to know those, you know, base couple JavaScript, Python, c++. And then from there, there's like variations on a theme and other ones that you can you can do in that kind of stuff. What would be your top two or three tips to learning any new coding language, Satvik 26:56 I would say start with the basics. That's the most important part like learning anything, regardless of your if you're, you know, learning coding language, or a real language, you know, the basics are the most important part where to put what, like the wall was the consonants, we have syntax, and then try to when you're learning, even when you're learning, try to focus on the neatness of writing the codes, you know, it helps you to understand the codes in a much more comprehensive way. Like if you're doing something just it takes like a few seconds to just write what you just did. And it helps you understand what you're doing and make it makes more sense in the longer run. And once you get proficient with it, you know, you can make acronyms. I know a friend of mine, who uses artists as like his markers, like he says, this part is Bob Marley, this part is Michael Jackson, and then he does his coding. So yeah, this is something I would say be comprehensive while doing the coding and do regular practice. There's like plenty of problems online, there's websites when you could get coding problems, and you can code in there. And they'll you know, tell you that was the code right or wrong, if wrong, like what was wrong in it. So there is like, so many different ways you could approach and even if you don't want to approach it, you could, you know, simply work on your, like daily lives, like, you could make a tic tac toe game, like you want to play with your friend, you could just coat that, or make a calendar or a clock. It's kind Podcast Host 28:19 of like trying remove some of life's conveniences. And instead of just, you know, looking at a clock or something, as you said, try and code one instead. And that's like, you know, a reason to practice and a reason to practice and a reason to practice. I keep finding those reasons to continue learning. I think it's really good advice. And is there any other tips that you would give like flashcards or that kind of thing? Is that like a memorization type of thing? Or is it just purely practice and getting used to, as you said, that kind of muscle memory type of learning? Satvik 28:49 Yeah, you can definitely make notes when you're, you know, taking any course or something. But yeah, as you're gonna start applying, and while coding doing practices, I guess you'll learn them, like how to do these operations. I just searched up and they're like, 9000 languages out there. Podcast Host 29:06 raizy 9000 languages? Well, there you go. So at least you know, 14, have you got plans to learn anymore? Satvik 29:12 I'm actually thinking too long, a bit more. I'm speaking to a couple friends of mine, and you're thinking to learn more Podcast Host 29:19 languages? In your experience? Why is there not just one mother language for all coding languages? Satvik 29:25 Okay, so it's like, let's take a like real life example for it. Um, if say you want to go from point A to point B, and you have various options. You have a bicycle, you'll have a car, you have a Tesla, you have a truck, you have a crane. And then you're asked, like, what would you use? So this is not an easy answer that you say, okay, that Tesla would move the fastest and I'll take the Tesla, but the conditions are very important about the distance between A and B what kind of terrain it is it very hilly or you know, it is Something like it has a lot of traffic or, you know, there could be plenty of conditions. And so basically, this is kind of a puzzle. And you need to find the solution to which you know, vehicle to use to reach there from A to B in the shortest period of time and most efficiently. So the same way it goes for programming languages, that you are given a scenario that you have to develop this thing, you think of the so many languages, and which of the following language would be most convenient, which have the most speed which, and also up to the taste of the programmer, like, Who likes more like, if somebody asked me to develop a new network, I'll probably go with Julia, but there's no harm in doing that the same thing with, you know, Python, either, but it's just that I like Julia more, I enjoy writing it that and also, it's a bit faster, you know, while compiling the code, although it's a fraction of seconds, but when you're compiling a huge amount of data in becomes, you know, quite significant. And then as these people analyze, and they have developed, like each of the languages developed, they have the developers have a mind in mind, they have like, Okay, why vi designing this language. So a language is basically, you know, devil up when they face any problem, right? Like any other invention, they develop, it's like, okay, we are facing this problem, and we need an alternate language to solve it, and so on, you know, we get generations of language, like, at first, like, we had PHP for like, web development, then we got HTML, then we are, you know, concrete working with JavaScript and Java, for your interactive based your web development, like, if you see Apple's website, it's a beautiful website, everything's moving, everything's changing videos and cooperated in it, you know, this was something not available back, even back when Google was founded, but not things are getting changed, and languages are getting more powerful, and, you know, they are moving forward. And the same goes with like, you know, machine learning and your whole statistical analysis of data, like we started with fightin. And now, you know, we are moving forward with Giulia MATLAB, which is used to, you know, make graphs and analyze the data sets, we are using our language, people from economists are using our programming language to analyze the data, you don't make predictions out of it. So it's like, as moving forward, we analyze what thing is useful for what, after all, programming languages are just a tool. And we, as you know, say, it's like, if there's a blade, Smith, and he wants to create a particular type of blade, it's really up to him, like what kind of, you know, tool you would use to make that play. So if he's gonna hammer it, or he's gonna, you know, quench it, or whatever your technique, you would like to make that blade more sharp or more long or short as to what he wants to make, or, and what resources he has, right? Because some languages are like, wood, if you try coding machine learning algorithm in c++, you can do it, it would be robust, it would take you I guess, a lot of time writing, and then a lot of time compiling it. And right, when you have an option, writing that in Python, in Python, we have like libraries, wherein you could import a particular model, right, they have pre written that model, you just have to import it and use it. Like there are a lot of libraries, and you could just borrow the model from there, and you could use them. But if you're, you know, looking for language like c++, you won't get the library and you have to hide everything yourself. So it will be like 500 or 600 lines of code just for one model, and then have to apply it. So it really gets very hard for you. And this is like one of the problems Julia programmers are feeling right now. Because there are not many of the libraries out there. But the ones which are out there are pretty dope, you know, are working refine, Podcast Host 33:55 you mentioned that people in economics are using some coding languages. In your experience, what do you think would be, or who do you think should be learning some kind of coding language, but they might not be completely aware that that's a skill set that they might need in future, Satvik 34:11 I guess, like, regardless of what field you are in, if you're learning any kind of skirt, it's going to benefit you. Like if you take example of economics, anywhere where you have to make predictions. And then you want to make new assumption when prediction machine learning is there and helping so there's actually a different field of study, which combines all machine learning and economics, it is called statistical learning. Stanford actually offers a course on that. And its uses our language to analyze the data, apply these machine learning models written in our language to analyze the data. So anybody like a couple of friends of mine are now reaching out to me they are doing comics that can you just send me some of the shots on our because our professor is saying that, you know, this is the next big thing and you guys should know it, and people are moving forward. programming languages, like one of the greatest example would be like the medical field, which has definitely no connection with machine learning in 2015, nobody would have thought that, you know, you could apply computer science and medical now, like drastically changing, it's like, people want to work together and you know, create a better outcome. Podcast Host 35:20 I think what I'm getting from that is that no matter what field, you're going into, that you would be very, very well served to have at least a base level of knowledge in coding, computer programming, that kind of thing. Satvik 35:32 Even vice versa. Like, if you're a computer scientist, if you are working with somebody who is in picture of Medical Sciences, you should have a basic background of it. Otherwise, you're just telling you stuff and you just don't get it. Podcast Host 35:44 But it seems like computer science and AI are going to be and deep learning and those kinds of things are going to be three, or a couple of the main tools that people will be using to solve the problems of the future. Like this is a fairly new technology. And that is increasing in power all the time, and can be applied to complex problems. So if you want to be a part of that problem solving, and if you want to be able to see those connections between the problem and the possible solution, then you really need to have a little bit of a grasp of both. So I think that that's very good advice. And I hope students listening take great analogy. Satvik 36:25 Yeah, great analogy. Podcast Host 36:27 As you said, like, even if they don't know when or where they will use it right now, it will be a skill that they can use in the future, almost certainly, it will be a skill as they Satvik 36:37 even I guess in future of like, artists who do painting would be using AI, because there's this new technique. It's called generative adversarial networks, it is used to generate images, which are not real, like it uses so many different images that like which contains probably 1000s of images, and renders a new image, which is unique, which is very different. And you won't be able to identify whether it's real or not. So people are using this technique to create artworks. And, you know, try to mimic what like Picasso made. Podcast Host 37:11 I know that that has some very dangerous potential as well. I've seen like deep fakes and those kinds of things. Satvik 37:17 Exactly. The example of generativity versus networks. It's about how you use your knowledge. Podcast Host 37:24 I know luid about coding from mainly been on the host of this podcast, actually speaking to other students who are also doing coding, which one would you recommend students should start with? Like, what's the most basic of the languages? And which one do you think has the most possibilities and is perhaps the most advanced of the coding languages that you know? Satvik 37:44 So yeah, different coding languages are used for different purposes, where if you are someone you know, who is getting into the coding for the first time, I recommend taking c++ because that's a very fundamental coding language, it's very rigorous. It's of no use, nobody uses but what is teaches you is to remember syntaxes, to apply the correct line of code. And then as you move forward, then you choose a path, like you want to be a developer, like an app developer, you choose JavaScript, Java, you want to be like a website designer, you choose HTML, if you want to be an iOS developer, you choose, you know, Android Studio, or like it for iOS, like swift language. But if you want to go into something like data science, machine learning are efficient. So there are like languages like our phyton, like, which is on top of every language right now. But some more languages are like Ruby. And my like, personal favorite is Julia. As of right now, it's a very new language, and it holds so much possibility. It's like, even if you read the documentation of Julia, it's like, we have the syntax of Python, and we have the swiftness of Java. And it's like, a very well composed language, it has the best of everything mushed together. And it's specifically for, you know, machine learning and data science, I felt that this is something revolutionary to me. And I know that when I'll be in my college, like two or three years down the line, when I'm, you know, working at somehow I know, people around me would be using this language more than Python. And I really think if, if there's someone who is really passionate about this field, I really encourage them to take Julia as a language. And even they have their online Academy, Julia Academy where they provide free courses to learn Julia and actually have some, I think, in all of their courses, and it's really fun to you understand this new language, they have great data sets, they have great, you know, what we call libraries to import models. They have amazing, you know, like this data flux, which is really great for deep learning, and it's really fun to Play around. Podcast Host 40:01 Crazy right? When I was at school, we were told to learn German because it was going to be useful. I don't know why we would learn German because the only reason it would be useful is if you go to Germany, right, I'm yet to go to Germany. So he learning German may or may not have been the most useful thing. But it does sound like this is a super useful language or languages to learn what fascinates you the most about computer science and the I guess the possibilities of computer science, Satvik 40:28 the possibilities that computer science whole like in not just in computer science field, but in other fields, even like in medical field, computer science and medical have very well mushed together, which was at one time were very separated things like one is engineering, and one is medical. And these were two different centers and very different things. But now, as we are moving forward, we see majors like computational biology, or by informatics, and people are working together, they are learning both sides of biology and computer science. And, you know, applied it, like in one of the conversations with Professor Halliburton, one of the oldest professors at MIT, and he has worked on like, one of the first languages, and he told me that computer science, if you want to work in computer science, you need to think about the ad like computer science and watch. Yes, so you want to move forward in that think about the and that thing has stuck with me forever. Since then, I've been looking for answers. And like, I think at a particular scenario, and I think like how computer science could be, you know, well marched in this location. So I try to, you know, apply things in the real world and see how better world it could be with computer science. It's not like computer science is going to take over. It's about like, if you're using AI, right, and say, another person who is doing podcast is not using the AI, the world for the second person is obviously done more than yours. Yes. And obviously, you will be more efficient, and you will move forward. And that guy would be shocked at what makes difference, that person using AI manages time managers will work in a more efficient way and solving the very basic functionality of computers, to help save time to make it more efficient. And thus remains the same for artificial intelligence. It's not about eating somebody's job, or we hear about like, it will take away jobs and factories. No, it won't, it will always be regulated by humans. And the humans need to be trained with AI. Podcast Host 42:33 Absolutely. I know, that's a big fear for a lot of people in factories and that kind of thing. But it's going to be replaced. But as long as people take the time to learn things like coding in different languages, and you've created a great community, for people to talk about these kinds of different technologies and what they're doing in that space, which is terrific. And so you've gone from a team of one or two people was you and your two people. And now your ad how many writers Satvik 43:00 are not just writers, we have a huge team of marketing, graphic designing web designing, outreach, content writing, and we have a team of around 35 people. Podcast Host 43:11 Wow. So you're like the founder and head of a very fast growing team, which is awesome. So these people are getting paid is it been monetized at all is a not for profit. Satvik 43:20 It's not for profit, it was in indeed, at first there was no profit, yet later and non non profit. So we started out as like, as I said to people, I paid for the domain name I paid for get the site design, I pay for the VIX that we used to design and I hard coded some of the HTML elements. And then I paid for those things. It was like in dollars, you would say 10 or $15. And then it was nonprofit, obviously. And later on, because the money we were making, first of all, how will it be distributed? amongst like the people, it's not like something I am earning the bus is not just my work, people are reading. Others people work too. And it wasn't really fair to them, if I take all the profit. And then if I take start taking profit, then if say if I get like, a few $100 How am I supposed to distribute that in to like a team of 75 people and everybody getting, say $2 or $3? And that will make any sense? Yep. And then again, if you want it is you get these ugly banners and ads on your website that I really don't appreciate because it's okay to have it to monetize, though. But one you are looking forward to create you know, an impact and working as a nonprofit, it doesn't really gives a good way when you're monetizing. Podcast Host 44:46 Yes. So that was like you had your initial kind of philosophy of why you wanted to create the website. And even though you probably could monetize it, now you certainly getting enough eyeballs to monetize it, probably not something that you'd want to do because it doesn't really fit well with what your original philosophy was. Satvik 45:03 Right. And moreover, like, if money is to matter, and we want to do something we would highly, you know, be encouraged to do something like a sponsorship, or to for, you know, program get funded by and foundation, you know, right, something which is more eloquent as I would say. And it's more, you know, in a way, which is benefiting both the organization and us, in a way. So yeah, and that is something I'm looking for, like, I'm currently in contact with MacArthur Foundation. We are speaking over a fund of like, 5000 to $10,000. For tech work, and we are in the final stages, and hopefully, we get it and yeah, move forward. Podcast Host 45:52 What would that do for the website? If you do get 510 $1,000 to Satvik 45:56 upgrade? It is not a website? I have huge plans for it. I have like can Campus Ambassador programs, country Ambassador programs, our whole website, redesigning it starting a podcast? Oh, yeah. And then like having events, which is very important. Like we I have people in like most smallest areas of Morocco. We have people from small towns of Italy, I have people from Brazil. And if I could give them this money, and they could host it even there for kids for a young generation, and they could learn something about it. Podcast Host 46:33 So you're saying like, if you could have tech fake be a vehicle to help rural communities learn about technology more, it could really reinvigorate rural communities, right? So you're empowering young generations of kids in rural areas to be like, Hey, you know, you feel like you can't help out too much on the farm. Well, guess what you actually can, but it might not be like plowing the fields necessarily. It could be creating a code or creating a system or creating some kind of data set for your farm farm or whatever it might be. Satvik 47:03 Exactly this, like I know a few people that come from a rule background and a vote on the genetics of week, like creating a new week, which is not that prone to cold, not that prone to diseases. This is like a new variety. And they have worked on it. Podcast Host 47:20 New kind of weight could really change a lot of people's lives all around the world. Now. That's, that's awesome. So I can see like tech Vic, not just being a blog, but being an organization for chatting. Yeah, Satvik 47:31 it's like it's more than a blog. Podcast Host 47:32 If our listeners wanted to contribute, potentially, I mean, obviously, they would like to go and visit and we'll put the link in the show notes. But if they wanted to contribute, how would they go back then? Okay, Satvik 47:43 so we have like options for like permanent positions. We have options for like internship for like three weeks or four weeks internships. And we have options for like one time submission, if you don't want any commitment, and you just have a piece that you want to get published, it's very easy. We are always accepting we are 24, seven, like all 365 days, accepting applications, we are not stopping. And it's a huge family. And you're welcome if you want to join us, because we are all driven by one motive to create an impact door and walk towards something new, which is like a tagline, Admiral era. And yeah, it's a beautiful game to work with. And if you're someone who has a knack for technology, or stem, I'm happy to welcome you to our family. Podcast Host 48:28 Well, I'm sure we will get a quite a few listeners who are fitting that description very, very well. I mean, a lot of the the episodes that we've done at the moment are quite stem based, how many views Do you get roughly a month or a year or you know what kind of viewership you have. Satvik 48:43 So far, we have reached over a million people. And we they are growing each month, we have articles which gain like 10,000 or 15,000 views in seconds, we get amazed, we have no idea how this the next cycle is going to go. And all of a sudden we know it got blown. It's like in a city of Morocco, and people are watching from there. And it's really exciting for us to see every day like what happened. It's really interesting. And more importantly, like because of our team, which is so diverse. We have like team for team members from almost all the continents in the world. And most importantly, the team is like a group of high schoolers and college students and a few like masters students and graduates. The most important part is that these people are not here for their welfare. They're here to contribute to the organization, which is very different because we have people from like MIT, Harvard, Stanford, all the ivy League's or technical university Munich, Oxford University. And the thing is that I spoke to a lot of people that Why are actually willing to join us. You know, this spoke about like, this was something I looked for When I was in high school, and I didn't get a chance, because something like this wasn't there, and now you're doing this wonderful job and you know giving a platform to people, and there is no way that I do not contribute to, you know, empower this. But it is very important to apply it for the good, as Ben Parker would say, like, with great power comes great responsibilities. Yes. So it's very important to understand your job as a programmer, as a data scientist or artificial intelligence practitioner, that you need to do something good for this world because you have the opportunity to learn this. You had the privilege to know all this stuff. And now when you do you have to wait for others who do not know about what you have to benefit them also all about living a good footprint. And people who follow that footprint to you know, something better? Podcast Host 50:52 Well said well said I think it's, it's all well and good to have the skills but even better, if you're able to apply those skills in a way that positively impacts the world. If people wanted to connect with you, what would be the best way to go about it. Satvik 51:04 Thing me on LinkedIn, I'm always active. First thing I do in the morning is check my LinkedIn. Other than that, if you're not on LinkedIn, you could send me an email, definitely you will get in response immediately. Regardless of any time zones, I am awake, almost like 18 to 20 hours a day. So you're gonna get a response, like in snaps. Podcast Host 51:25 Awesome. Satvik, thanks so much for joining Top of the Class. It's been fantastic to have you on the show. Satvik 51:30 It was an honor. And I really thank you for whatever, like podcasts you're doing and the way you're featuring people, it really means a lot to so many people and you're really inspiring people. Podcast Host 51:41 Well, I hope so. It's not me doing the inspiring, it's you doing the inspiring, and it's all my fantastic guests who are doing the inspiring. So thank you for coming on now, and I look forward to sharing the show far and wide.

Ep #20 MIT's Student Body President on Leadership, Applications and Hope

🗓 DEC 19, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:34 Hi, Danielle. Welcome to the top of the class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on today. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Danielle 03:47 Yeah, definitely. First, thank you for having me. My name is Danielle Geathers. I'm a junior at MIT studying mechanical engineering. And I was elected the student body president. I'm the first black woman to serve in this role. Podcast Host 04:00 Amazing. And how old is MIT? Danielle 04:06 Good question. It's about 159 years. Podcast Host 04:10 It's about 159 years that sounds rather about a rather exact about number. But obviously like MIT, for those of you who don't know, the way I tend to explain MIT is it's the university that Peter Parker and Iron Man, you know, talk about a lot. So it's like science to the max it is I actually visited MIT in January, as Yeah, totally as a tourist. But I loved it. We took a photo in that, like, the see through man with the numbers and stuff is like crouched on the ground. Danielle 04:45 Yeah. Right in front of our students centre. Podcast Host 04:47 Yeah. So we took a photo in that and we we went to their tour. And one thing I found interesting about MIT is that they were like, "We are unabashedly nerdy. 100% unabashedly nerdy." So I throw to you, are you a proud nerd? Danielle 05:07 Yes, definitely. In terms of like academic nerdiness I think I'm definitely on the lower tier of MIT students. Right. I think I am nerdy in terms of the fact of appreciating certain nuances of life. So I definitely do identifies it MIT nerd. Podcast Host 05:23 Oh, fantastic. So give me those areas of life that you appreciate to the max. Like, what are some of those things that you like to get nerdy about? Danielle 05:32 You want me to expose myself? Podcast Host 05:34 You know, just as much as you're comfortable with? No, yeah, yeah. Danielle 05:39 I think I've always loved fun facts. I think just knowing random things. I think that's pretty nerdy. I think the way my nerdiness has manifested itself at MIT is I'm very much like I love MIT culture now. So one like nerdy thing we all do is like we call our majors course numbers. So like mechanical engineering, it was really tough for me to say it in my intro because it's like course to anyone else at MIT asked me I'll tell them course to Computer Sciences courses. So I think I love the little like coded language. What does it mean? Something really nerdy. I did when I was little though, was I would connect collect my mom's old contact lenses and I would rehydrate and dehydrate. Podcast Host 06:20 For fun. Danielle 06:21 Yeah, cuz I like seeing the polymers come alive. very nerdy. Podcast Host 06:26 Okay. Did you mention that in your application at all? Danielle 06:30 No, I didn't. No, no. Didn't go into that. Podcast Host 06:35 Yeah, I mean, I think like MIT if there was any admission officer that would appreciate someone who hydrates in dehydrates contact lenses, it could well be them, especially if it's to see the polymers. But yeah, what what did you kind of laid within your application? Because you had a lot of different things going on in high school? You One was that during high school that you won the three different scholars, the Burger King, coke and footlocker scholars. So you did a lot of cool things. But what was your like, main gist of your application? Danielle 07:07 Yeah, so one big thing I did in high school was I played soccer. I played soccer my whole life. But it's actually interested in playing soccer at MIT. But at the same time, I kind of was kind of to try and figure out how I would integrate my love for STEM and soccer. I didn't want it to be like, Oh, I'm a nerd, but also play sports and like, have it be like two separate thing I really wanted to be like, this is my personality, and how it all ties together. So actually, summer before my senior year of high school, I started a service project. And I went to a local park, where football is really big Miami's like the biggest city in the world for football or not. In America, for American football, you know, there's a lot of children from like, a marginalized backgrounds who love football. So actually, what I did was I would show ESPN sports science videos, where they would show like football scenes, and they would connect physics and math and nutrition. And then I would kind of explain the topics to them and do worksheets for them. So as my main service project, so how I lead my application is very much like describing my motivation for creating that project and the impact. And I think that kind of tied in, like, all the things that MIT typically wants to see in terms of seeing someone who like, loves them, first of all, like has their own passion and can figure out how to use that passion to help other people. So then also giving back Podcast Host 08:27 Awesome, so they No, that's, that's for sure, like a great way to pitch yourself along with the sport, right? It's about combining passions and interests and those kinds of things, which is always a good tip. But did you think you know that you would get into MIT? Was that like a? Something that you were confident about? Or was it like, you know, a hail mary type situation applying for MIT? Danielle 08:51 Yeah. So since I didn't play soccer, and I knew I wanted to play soccer in college. Um, I started really early on looking at schools looking at what schools are right for me what the LSAT scores would be. Um, so pretty early on, I decided that, oh, I want to do engineering, MIT's the best. I need to go to MIT. Um, so I contacted the coach, I think at the freshman year of high school, he had seen me play by sophomore year and said, like, he wanted me on the team. And mighty though is very different since we are a division three school. So it's not like you can just get in for athletics, though. Yes. Ah, but then I also did a summer program after my junior year, and it was a very inclusive summer program. So it definitely wasn't a hail mary. I felt like it was definitely my dream school and like my dream. Um, but I was pretty confident that I would get in but I did get deferred. So that definitely took a hit. I applied early got deferred, but then I got it in March with regular decision. Podcast Host 09:44 Oh, awesome. That's fantastic. And when you first got to MIT, what was your first impression, though? I mean, I know you're, there is all these other lovely nerds, you know, running around and I've met a couple of them actually, I when I was over there. We had dinner with an Australian guy. Who lives at MIT and studies there? But you know, it's a it's a funny kind of campus culture. I think they're quite proud of the pranks and all these other bits and pieces that really make MIT unique. What was your first impressions on campus? Danielle 10:16 Yeah. That's a good question. So I've gone to campus a couple times, at least four or five times before I went, actually, um, for recruiting to through soccer and summer program I mentioned and for like the admitted students weekend, um, I think one of my first impressions honestly was how nice people were, I think it was very much one of those environments where you step around and like, even if your face just like, even if you don't express or state a question, if your face is kind of confused, like someone would come to you and be like, Hey, are you lost? And I think like, it's continued, that I've been so fascinated by how willing to help people are at MIT chokes me with all the things, they're dealing with their busy lives. There hasn't been a time where I'd be like, Why isn't anyone helping me? Where can I get help? So I think I remember that as a first year, like something basic, with my suitcase, kind of like, where do I go? Like, oh, let me walk you there, things like that. So I think definitely, like the friendliness of the campus. I think people don't give like stem people credit in terms of like the soft skills. Yes, I want MIT ourselves to be and nice. And that's really like understated. Podcast Host 11:26 Oh, that's really lovely. And I think that initial impression, right? Because it's so positive, enabled you to, I guess, get to where you are now in some respects, because you wouldn't be giving your all to a university, where you didn't particularly like the people do, which is great. And so now you've become student body president, which is an awesome thing. But to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what a student body, you know, what a student body president does. So can you walk us through what your day to day, you know, obligations and tasks look like as a student body president? Danielle 12:02 Yeah, definitely. Um, and I will say that the role, one thing I've learned is that the role looks very different at different schools as well like depending on size and different things. But speaking more to my role at MIT, we're really blessed to have a set of school administrators and like a president who really want to include student voice. So my role is even more important as kind of the voice for students. So we do a lot of like town halls, and obviously students could speak for themselves, but just kind of on a day to day basis. I'm in a lot of meetings I serve on like, several Institute committees, I serve on the Alumni Board of Directors as like ex officio member. So I kind of go around to a lot of places, and I represent the student voice. Um, so because of that, I have a lot of freedom for how I gauge the student voice. But traditionally, that takes up most of my time to make sure I'm actually representing what students want. Um, additionally, our student government runs like fun events, we have to do recruitment for our student government, we actually fund all the like student groups on campus as well. Um, so the money goes through us to like that funding cycle. But overall, most of my day to day rules, like planning, the long term what MIT should look like for students, so really trying to influence those decisions, and just like meet where students gauge how they're feeling and really communicate when issues come up. Podcast Host 13:24 Yeah, sounds like a pretty full on kind of role. How does that affect your studies? At the same time? You're doing mechanical engineering? No, you know, no, kind of walk in the park there. That's a really intense courseload. And you're now student body president? Do you get much sleep? Um, 13:40 yeah, Danielle 13:41 I used to get a lot of sleep. Oh, it's 13:43 good. Yeah. Danielle 13:45 Anyway, studies might be affected, but I do get sleep. Um, I think I think growing up always playing soccer and playing soccer my first year at MIT. And just doing a bunch of other activities. I always have loved like a very packed schedule. Like whenever I have times, I'm like, oh, Netflix all day and sleep. Yeah, you do a day that's not packed. So I think I function better that way naturally. And I think also just mechanical engineering at MIT in terms of like, your four year courseload. Like, it's easy to like, figure out a good way to like, section it off. So you're not doing a lot of heavy semesters. So right now I have like one technical class. I'm in like this leadership developing development program. And then I have like a writing class. So it's really not bad, and actually the leadership development program, and so playing into a lot of my role as President. So definitely busy days, but it's not overwhelming. You know, that's Podcast Host 14:38 good. That's good. That's good. Well, I was going to ask you about leadership because I think that's such a, an abstract concept for a lot of students in particular, when they speak about student leadership, it seems to be more of a mindset thing than a skill set thing. So what are your views on leadership? Do you see it more as a skill or a mindset or a mindset first, then a skill set Because you've got like the skill of, you know, Public Speaking of presenting different portfolios or prisoner presenting different, what will you call them? Like proposals, right? or doing different things as a leader that you have to do convening meetings, etc, etc. And then you have the mindset side of things. Now, you obviously like a fantastic personality, you are great, like really friendly and a great character. Is that, like, Did you bring all that already into the leadership role? And then it was just the skillset side that needed work? Or what do you what are your views on leadership in general? Danielle 15:34 Yeah, that's a super good question that I haven't gotten before, either. I think that, um, my even understanding of leadership has completely transformed since like being elected office in May. But, um, to answer the question, I think it's definitely a mindset thing. And I think that a lot of people think that the mindset thing kind of is tied to like, what you would call like, extrovert trait, but I don't even think it's that, um, in the leadership program, we talked about, like, we have these like skill sets of leaders, or characteristics. And I think, like, one big thing is initiative, like, well to deliver. And I think that can express itself and like many different personality types, but I think overall, at your foundation, you have to like walk, you know, I think they sometimes even when I'm in a room, yeah, I'll sit back, like, versus like really wanting to take that initiative, wanting to drive the conversation, wanting to always like, look out for others and be like, how can I help? And so I think that that definitely is like a mindset and then you build out the skills. So in terms of like, the skills, I definitely thought before, like, being captain of soccer teams, like in school projects, like in high school is very much like, leadership is being like, the loud one, right? You tell you what you're like no other people skills, you can assign them to things like that was kind of what leadership was like taking initiative. I think, like, now being president with like, 200 other students in my student government with like, 1000 things always on the agenda, I really had to learn how important like, delegation is, but like, actually making sure that when you delegate to someone they have buy in, and they want to do something, and really just understanding how leadership is more focusing on developing other people as leaders versus like, focusing on tasks per se. But I definitely think just it's mindset, and then there's just so many skills you can build. And it's like a whole life journey. Podcast Host 17:27 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's going to be a huge year for you as the student body president. Do you think when you finished your time at MIT, what will be more valuable will abate the experience as a student body president, or will it be the mechanical engineering degree? Danielle 17:44 Yeah, definitely. Student Body President, 17:47 um, oh, this Yeah, Danielle 17:48 I just had this little slogan that, like, I'm not trying to let school get in the way of my education. I think that's a quote that I love. So I think that is very much my slogan. And I think like, even if I was like, ranking things, like mechanical engineering would not even be number two, or maybe number three, I think, really? Yeah. I think just like, learn being around people, like getting comfortable being around people who are just so much smarter than you. And like, understanding how to communicate with people like that. And then just like dealing with imposter syndrome, learning how to overcome that, I think there's just so many challenges that just come up with being at a place MIT that, like, you're, you have a lot of support to like, get over those obstacles that like learning how to deal with that just sets you up for life in a different way. I think mechanical engineering is great, but I actually like have zero passion. Podcast Host 18:47 Wow, okay, well, fine, I guess like as long as you're still enjoying the experience for everything else. And obviously, you are like, you wouldn't be student body president if you were heading your time there. So obviously, like you're still it's interesting that someone could go to a university like MIT, which is celebrated for nerdiness, as we covered earlier, yet, it's fine, the joy of MIT in things other than the coursework? That's what I find interesting in that situation. So is that something that you expected going in? Or did you feel like the coursework would pull you in and you would be a mechanical engineer to the bone? Or did you always think that you would get the joy of college from things other than your classwork? Danielle 19:28 Yeah, I think I think I knew what I was getting into. So just for some context, like my mom's a lawyer, she's a single mother. I was like, always around her always in the courthouse. And I think very early on, I was like, oh, law litigation that's up my alley. So I did go to MIT thinking I wanted to do like intellectual property law. And so in a way mechanical engineering was like a means to an end in terms of needing to have a technical background to become an intellectual property lawyer. So although I did love inventions that I did love like the technical side I love like math. I don't know if I love physics. But I think just coming in knowing that, and knowing that I chose MIT predominately because of its collaborative environment and the warmth of its people that like, that's why I was going there to be surrounded by like, people who go to MIT versus like, oh, the mechi department. Right, right. Right, Podcast Host 20:21 right. Okay, I get you, I get you. So you do see like, your next step is potentially post grad law or something like that. Okay. All right, definitely. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. And where would you study that if you've got any ideas? Or is it early days yet? 20:35 Yeah. Danielle 20:36 I've been looking at Harvard Law. They do have a junior deferral program. So I'd be able to apply like over the summer and get in and then work for two years and then go back. But as a Miami, Florida, born and raised Cambridge for seven years, sounds weird and cold. Yeah, I completely sold but I'm still looking at Harvard laws. Definitely at the top of the list right now. By the way, Podcast Host 20:59 I just need to help our listeners out here. I always feel like when someone from Cambridge, Massachusetts, says Cambridge, our listeners automatically think Cambridge is in Oxford, Cambridge. Cambridge in a good No, no, this is Massachusetts, Cambridge, Massachusetts. And yes, it is. It's cold out there. You know, I was there in January, and it wasn't too bad. Actually, this year was actually not too bad at all. It didn't snow or anything whilst we were there, but I know that it can get like, darn cold. what's what's the coldest you've ever been on campus at MIT? Danielle 21:34 Yeah, probably just also. So we actually we have a nice thing where it's called independence activities period for January. So you don't have to be on campus in January. But my freshman year I decided to be on campus. And we were working on our project in like a design lab, which is like a 20 minute walk away from our dorm. Lauer working that 2am Wyatt 2am don't ask, but a snow Blizzard or Blizzard or whatever happens in Massachusetts. We had a walk home and like, like negative TED or something. Like with cars, like with 80 layers, it's like trying to run back. So I was in that for 20 minutes. But other than that, I try to stay inside. Podcast Host 22:16 Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people, particularly from Australia, you know, they want to study at places like Harvard and MIT. I don't think they really know what cold it is. Because we don't have that kind of cold here in Australia. Like we don't know, that cold, you know, negative, many, many degrees type of thing. And I think it comes as quite a shock to some students when they do get to places like that. And like, oh, wow, this is cold. I've my mum gave me one jacket when I really needed like, 10 glad you survived that experience. But yeah, let's let's go through the journey of student body president and how you, you know, as a freshman coming into MIT kind of worked their way up into a position to be elected as student body president. And kind of like, if there's students out there who want to do the same within their school, for instance, or when they go to university within the university? What advice would you give them for that journey? So yeah, take me through, like how you started to get involved in campus life? And then how you started to kind of, you know, was it something that you were planning for to be student body president? Were you crafting all the time, like your campaign and your message or that kind of thing? Or were you as surprised as anybody, when you like came upon the opportunity to be student body president, and that, you know, was a reality for you? Danielle 23:33 Yeah, definitely wasn't a plan. I did not know what city government was at MIT year, even the name of our student government until like, December, October, freshman year, so definitely wasn't a plan. Um, I knew I wanted to have an impact. I knew I came from a predominantly white like private high school, and I actually created the boxing evening there. And I had a lot of fun doing that I like got a lot of fulfillment in terms of helping people being an actually outspoken person, I realized that like, that was a gift in terms of being able to help other people who might be dealing with things in silence. Um, so coming from that background, I remember being in high school and like, seeing all the schools that I've you all these people, Ivy League schools, like doing all this advocacy, I think it was like 10th grade when like the blacks union and our Princeton was like, doing citizens and happy admit, it was on the news. And I was like, wow, this is like colleges, and then going back to I was in it for the experience more. Yes. Um, so when I got into MIT, it was like, okay, the Black Student Union like that is for sure. My first stop, that's where I'm going to join a committee. I'm gonna learn what college activism is, it's gonna be great. Um, so I joined the boxing union. We have like five operating committees, I was on like three of those. I was running the Instagram page. I was on the political action committee like being Secretary taking notes, like doing basically everything I could as a first year. Um, Then actually, the Vice President, like the person who was political action committee chair, ended up running for vice president of our student government the next year. I'm a complete, like, fluke, honestly, he wasn't involved in student government, but the person who was involved, knew him and said, you'd be perfect. So at that point, he won. And then he was like, oh, you'd be great being officer on diversity. And I was like, Office of Diversity for a while, like this guidance, Student Government, kind of just described the impact that they can have at MIT. So at that point, I accepted the role. And I was one of seven officers like leading the Student Government. Um, I don't like MIT. So I think at that point, I was like, the top of diversity, equity inclusion after just being like super involved first year, yes. And I was in speaking with all these administrators really learning about the impact or student government can have. And then I think after COVID-19, everything changed in terms of the actual need to represent students after the summer the need to like put Diversity, Equity and Inclusion issues at the forefront. So I think that was very much like the intersection of what I was passionate about in terms of making our student government more visible, more inclusive. So I think it like all lined up for me to run it was very much not like a plan. I didn't do any student government anything and I school, but very much as following my passions, and like really wanting to drive impact and figuring out how I can do that. And I thought running would be the way to do that. Podcast Host 26:28 yet. So is it like a campaign or something that you have to put together? Or like what are you presenting to the MIT student body to be like, nominate or vote for Danielle and make me student body president? Like, what's the kind of process there? Is it like a US style election? Or is it a little bit more chill? Danielle 26:46 Yeah, it is. It's more chill than the US election, but pretty similar. Um, so you run with a running mate. Um, so you and your running mate, um, file the forms. And then you usually have like a week, a week and a half a week of planning. And then like a week where you can start campaigning, we give campaigning, and then voting starts in a week of voting. It might have been a little different because we were virtual. So not at home because of COVID. In March, I decided to run in April. And then though, all right, yeah, I decided to run late March. And the elections were the last week of April. So all virtual campaigning Instagram pages, Facebook pages, websites, constant zoom calls, I think I was literally on zoom am midnight. But just really like you have a platform. We ran on values, because we thought we have no idea if we'll be on campus in the fall. But what will matter is like the values of the person who's your president and vice president, so you ran on unity, equity and authenticity, and lots of campaign fires. Oh, Podcast Host 27:51 wow. So it sounds like Yeah, really strong campaign that you have put forward and you got elected, which is awesome. What was that week like where you get the nomination or not just the nomination, you got elected student body president and the first black woman to be student body president MIT's 159 year history. What was that week? like for you? How crazy was it? I mean, you were doing media. I'm sure the student body was like, getting behind you. And you're getting messages all over the place. Like That must have been crazy way. Danielle 28:24 Yeah, it was a crazy week. And it was a crazy campaign week. So I actually ran against someone who was also an officer the year before, um, and I'm trying to get this number, right. But we definitely won by less than 50 votes. 28:39 Wow. Danielle 28:40 Yeah. So it's kind of that like, nobody knows who's gonna win. Um, the president before me, endorsed the other ticket. Our school newspaper endorsed the other ticket, she was holding your breath until well. Yeah, so I think it was very stressful. But then also, our student government was like four weeks behind because of it. Um, so I was very much I had to have a quick turnaround where I picked everyone who was in my officers. We did like student represents on representatives on different committees. So I had to pick all those within like two weeks, like a process that's usually done over like, four weeks. I did in two weeks, it was very much like, we got elected and then we're like, Okay, great. I'm two hours from now, what a zoom call, again, to figure out this email we're gonna send to people. Yeah, I forget to say it was kind of immediately like, Okay, time to get to work. Um, so it wasn't a lot of like, celebration immediately. And honestly, a lot of the media attention didn't come for like a couple weeks. So it was very much like, over your head, like, just focus, focus, focus, yes. Fine. Living to where like the next week, like working more so than like celebratory, unfortunately. Well, Podcast Host 29:55 yeah. I mean, you're getting there now to kind of celebrate and feel more comfortable in the role and Is it something that you would recommend at this point? I mean, early days, but you know, for students who are in school and like looking at school leadership, or who are about to go into university, and potentially looking at student leadership in student government? Is it something that you would say, Yeah, 100% go for it? Or is it something you were like, you got to know your priorities? Like, what do you want to get out of the unique experience? Like you did? Like, I love that whole idea that, you know, mechanical engineering is not even second on the list. It's like third or fourth, perhaps. Right? So it is like, what kind of advice would you give for students who are potentially considering it, but not too sure if it's for them? Danielle 30:36 Yeah, definitely, like the latter part of what you were saying. Like, I think just so right now, like, I just have so many other student body presidents because why there's a lot of black student body presidents right now. So we have our own cute little group chat, but also just from meeting different people. And I think one thing I've learned is you have to, like want it and like not like once a title or what the role or the authority, nothing like that, you have to genuinely want to help students. Because yes, it's so much work that if you don't like do the work like you are going to have a horrible time. So I think it's definitely like, definitely not focusing on the role at hand. I think if there was another role I could have had, in which I felt like I could have had the same impact I would have been in that role. It wasn't about being president for me was about wanting to set the agenda because I felt like I knew what resonated with people more so than I wanted to do what I wanted to do. And this was the position to do it. So I think in terms of advice for other people, it's really about figuring out what's right for you, in terms of how you want to spend your time in college. And what you want to do. I have a bunch of other friends who stayed on the athletics team. And like, that's their journey, their captain, and they love that and they're getting fulfillment from them, they would hate student government, I have other friends who like run the engineering robotics team, and they love that. And they get fulfillment from that. And they also hate seeing government. So I think it's really just trying out things your first few years seeing what feels right for you, and not going like title chasing or anything, because people who end up chasing and getting the role, they just have a horrible time. And usually they're like, a mess. Podcast Host 32:13 I love that. I love that advice. Because I think that's particularly a problem in high school, I think maybe potentially due to a lack of maturity, or whatever it might be right where the title chasing is real. And I think it's become even more real for students wanting to get into top universities, right? Because they're like, you know, it's kind of a form of resume padding in some way, where it's not about what you do with the role. It's just about having the row next to your name. And once you get it, you're done, right, where like a lot of people feel like that's the achievement just getting the title, when actual fact it's what you do with the title that matters. So yeah, 100% do not title Chase, that's very bad, because you will end up having a horrible year. Yeah, very bad, you will end up having a horrible year. So I really, really love that advice. And I think that's totally a real thing for high school students to really consider and as you said, like, you know, you can get as much fulfillment, or even more Fulfillment by being the, you know, member or president of everybody's club or member of a president of a or captain of a sports team. You know, you don't need to necessarily, actually, you could probably do more with a title that you're comfortable with and that you really want, then with like the head title, that you don't really want it you just wanted it next to your name, like a good philosophy to live by. I love that. I love that. Well, let's let's shift gears a little bit. I want to chat about your your scholars, your various scholarships that you want. And if you have any kind of general advice for how to approach an application, right, so you've got these three different scholars, the footlocker Burger King Coke, Coke, Bane, as you said, before the podcast started technically, it is like the main one. And I know it's like super competitive. I'm following them on Instagram. I think it's only for American students. Am I right in saying that? 34:04 Yeah, Podcast Host 34:05 I think so. Yeah. But for all the American students out there. Talk to us about like, what it means to get a coke scholarship and versus the other ones like, did you have to alter your application? Or were you just like, copy, paste? send off again? Like, how do you approach all these different opportunities? Danielle 34:23 Yeah, I think growing up you hear like, Oh, this person got a full ride or this and this. And I think I definitely thought like, initially, my understanding of scholarships was like, oh, what you get when a school wants you for either academics or athletics? I think then I learned that no, what a lot of people are looking for is people who want to have an impact and people who want to give back. So one thing I can say about like meeting my scholar cohort, from Coke scholars, and all the other scholarships and other scholarships in general is everyone has a thing, right? Yeah. And it's not a thing that they do with it. They're amazing. Like we have people who are Like great cheer test champions, right, but they don't have the Coke scholarship because they're test champions, they have the Coke scholarship, maybe because they help teach ability How To Play Chess, or because they use chest to somehow enrich somebody else's life. So I think very much at your core, it has to be about giving back. And I also think that you shouldn't give up because I'm saying to give back or because somebody is telling you to get back, I think it has to be something that comes from within. And then if it truly does, like, it kind of shines. Um, so I think just being really intentional about it, when you're in high school, it doesn't have to be like first year, or second year, even I think just being like, Who am I? And how can I uniquely give back. And I think that's one way that like, really sets you apart, I think like to be that young, and to know what you're passionate about, and care about giving back and figuring out how to merge the two, it can really make you stand out and scholarship application. So that was the main thing I did. So for code scholarship, I really like shifted around the service project with like sports science, and soccer, and really kind of talked about that passion. Same for footlocker, they were looking for someone who played a sport, so it was really helpful shaving soccer. Yeah. And then same with Burger King. So I think just in terms of how to go about filling out the application is really about being able to tell your story. But your story also shouldn't be just about you, right? Your story is about how you gave back and how you plan to give back in the future. So I think that's the key. I mean, in general, I think like, although it was the same story, every time, I think depending on your audience, you should shift in and change it. So I think it was a copy and paste for base. But then it was definitely like the essays are not identical at all. And you need to read the questions that they're asking, because a lot of the scholarships are looking for different types of people. Right, right. Podcast Host 36:49 Right, for sure. For sure. No, that's fantastic advice. One thing that I am interested in is, how do you I'm going to sound like a bad person here. I know I am. But how do you come across as a genuine person who has a passion and who wants to make a difference? When in the back of your mind? you kind of know, in part, that you're doing this? Because it will look good? Or an application? like yeah, is that ever come? You know, in mind when you were doing these kinds of things that you were like, Oh, you know, I'm going to do this thing with the ESPN sports science and soccer, etc. And of course, like it comes from a very genuine place. And I can see that with you that it does come from a genuine place. But did there ever creep in that kind of little voice at the back being like, this will look awesome on your application type of thing? And how do you I guess, balance those two? Danielle 37:42 Yeah. And I do think it's a balance. Because I think one thing I learned also is from like doing service projects, and I think something that people don't really tell you is like, if you do a service project, and you don't take a picture the whole time, like Oh, Podcast Host 37:57 really happened, right? Danielle 37:58 Yeah, I think also it is, it definitely is that like balance, because also when you're doing your service project in doing these great things, you have to document it. And you have to gain these contacts who are gonna vouch for you, I think this like, idea that it all comes about naturally, right? You do something great, like you don't naturally come out. And that's like not true at all. I think like one thing that's really important is like, the black presidents like people when they get a role, like people don't understand that, like, you actually have to tell people you have to like reach out and do press releases. People don't just know information about like, government. So I think that's just kind of something you learn in terms of claiming space, I think, especially for underrepresented communities, a lot of it is like claiming space and being comfortable, like achieving things, but then also claiming that achievement and knowing how to publicize that achievement. So I think for me, overall, I knew what I was doing was helping people. I knew I enjoyed doing it. So I think I didn't have as much guilt. But I do know what your say, um, and I think that as long as most of it is to help others, yes. There's no negative in it. Right? Like you're not doing it for bad reason. So I think that's how you sew up those differences. Podcast Host 39:16 Yeah, no, no, it's just interesting to kind of think that I think I still, you know, I sometimes have in the back of my mind, like when I want to go and you know, volunteer or plant trees, whatever I'm like, this will be like, this will look good on Instagram or something, you know, like, there's always that kind of, you know, what does this show? Or what does this tell about me, rather than just my internal compass, just telling me to do the right thing, right? And it's what like social media is kind of created, I guess it's based off of that outer awareness of what it looks like to other people versus like, what it means to you. And I guess that's a very interesting balance. And I know that some students are just out there going, being like, you know, what, what servers project will get me into Harvard. Just level with me. And you're like, No, no, no, it's it's not about that. It's like, it's like, What? What do you want to do? And what do you want to give back to? And how do you get joy out of giving? Right? Yeah. Danielle 40:11 And I think that's why it's so important that it's related to your passion. Because if not, then like you are, then you might just be doing Yeah, yeah, Podcast Host 40:20 exactly. And then it will get very tiresome very, very quickly. If that's the case. Yeah. No, it's been a really extraordinary year for student voice. And for young black student voice as well. You know, everything that's been going on in the US has been crazy to watch from the perspective of an Australian here. And the election, BLM protests of Black Lives Matter protests. And just like the whole COVID situation, student body president in that COVID situation with all these different things, like, must have been a crazy year for student voice in general. Have you been surprised by how important student voice is? Or is it something that you already knew? And just wanted to elevate? Danielle 41:04 Yeah, I think I have been surprised, more moreso with how receptive people have you been to listening to soup voice then, like vital, and like poignant student voice can be, um, I think one thing that was like, really big for me was kind of coming into the presidency and being like, Oh, I'm gonna have to, like, tell these administrators, I'm gonna have to get into a meeting, I'm gonna have to all this and having them invite me in having them be like, No, we want you here. What do you think? What do you think about this? What should we do? I hate like just being like COVID-19. And BLM really created that environment. And I hope moving forward to really adopt that kind of mentality. But from my perspective, people have just been so eager to hear what students have to say. And that's very refreshing. And I think at the same time, students are really educating themselves and preparing for what to say and what comes next and really shaping up to be the future. So I think I was very surprised to see how many people are willing to listen to students. I was also doing an internship. So I was like a student, but I was like on a team. And I think they were like, Danielle, what do you think like, what do you think about this? What can we do? And I said, No. Okay. I think I think it's very important. I hope moving forward, we keep the same mentality. Podcast Host 42:22 Yeah, 100%, I think the student voice and I said, like, in recent years, I think America has been, you know, in many different circumstances in terms of like a global reputation. And it's been, it's not so good in some points. But in any case, I think one thing that has been a shining light for America over the past couple of years, his students, his student voice, the people, you know, from Florida, who were protesting about guns, and leading the March that they did, which was like the power that they spoke with, and then through the Black Lives Matter movement, as well, like the number of students who are involved, it just seems to be, you know, like, I look at America sometimes. And sometimes the, you know, the 50 plus age group isn't really doing their part in many respects. But certainly the younger people have that hope. And is that something that you feel like across at least the MIT campus and maybe even broader with, you know, other black student body presidents? Do you feel like, there is hope for America more broadly, I know, that's like a kind of broad topic to speak on. But like, from where I stand, I look at America, and I see students have hope, probably more hope than many other people or many other age groups. And do you feel that way? Danielle 43:42 Yeah, I think like, one thing that's super interesting, is kind of the role that social media has played into everything. I know, you meant mentioned, like the Douglass tragedy. And actually, when I was seeing it, it was my senior year of high school. And I had a girl My team, my actual fellow Captain went to that school. Um, and I know that on our soccer team, we knew people who went to that school more so from social media than anything, and I think like that kind of interconnectedness, vibe, um, the Yale had their first black student body president last year, and he, like, I got elected, and he reached out to me like, over Instagram dm. So I think the fact that our generation can be so interconnected, and different when I was talking to my mom the other day, because I think I posted something on my Instagram story, something that took me like, five minutes to take a picture of, um, and then to see 1000 people thought 24 hours later, or did you have anything like this when you were a student? Yeah, no, nobody listened to me nothing like that. Um, so I think it's very big. And I think just getting the platform to have people listen to your ideas, the platform to amplify other people's like educational resources and stories. This is really encouraged our generation to like, take grasp of the moment and be really kind of poignant, and like very Much more serious and I think what a lot of people think we focus on. Um, so I do think there is hope in terms of confronting the history of the United States. For a long time, we've had a lot of hush, hush. Let's continue on Ford, Ford Ford. Um, I think I just wrote an essay. Yesterday I kind of about the history of ghettos in the United States. And like, kind of understanding that, like, de facto segregation is a myth in terms of No, there were laws made by the government. That's why things are segregated, not like, Oh, this is a naturally occurring phenomenon. I think those like realistic histories and like confronting that history, it's so important to come up with solutions. So I think the myth that we can just move forward without really confronting the truth of the past is just a myth that our generation wants to get to the bottom of interest, knowing what actually happened knowing the truth about Christopher Columbus and indigenous people, um, and figuring out how to come up with solutions moving Podcast Host 46:02 forward. So I think that's what gives me hope the most, it's like the, the kind of desire to have those tough conversations and not to ignore them anymore. And just be like, hey, let's just hash this out for once. Can we just talk about it? Because I do think that for, you know, throughout the 60s and 70s, and 80s, it was just like, oh, Christopher Columbus Day like, yeah, you probably call it a damn thing. You're like, No, no, that's, and there will always be that small, dissenting voice. But I think, you know, as he said, like, social media has this power to amplify that small dissenting voice, and really get it out to a much, much wider audience. would you encourage young student leaders to be very active on social media? You're very active on social media. Danielle 46:47 Yeah, very active. I think I've become more active. But I also think my social media has been a little bit corrupted in terms of like, being student body president, and whatever that entails, for what my social media should be from. Podcast Host 47:03 Representative now you gotta like, you gotta you gotta manage what you put up. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, Danielle 47:07 I but I think in general, I don't think like if you're naturally not a social media person, and you're naturally not like, really drawn to reposting other people's stuff, or even posting things about your life, I don't think I would push anybody to be like, Oh, no, use this. But I think if you are holding yourself back, because you're afraid of judgment, or because you're afraid of whatever it might be, maybe feel like right now you don't have the following. I think definitely always just if you're a creator, and you want to create things and put it up. This is such a like, actually, industry for influencing now. I think that's amazing. So I think that definitely, if somebody wants to, I would definitely say to explore social media explore its benefits, explore what's out there. There's just so many sources of education on it. Like, how much have I learned from Instagram in the past year, like in comparison to like, even like high school history? Yeah, I think crazy. So I think it's definitely a powerful tool. Podcast Host 48:06 Yeah. And for our listeners, if they wanted to check out your socials, what would be your recommended list of Danielle socials, or Tick Tock or an Instagram or LinkedIn? Oh, what would be your ones that you would encourage our listeners to check out your posts on? Danielle 48:25 Yeah, so I'm not on Tick Tock. Podcast Host 48:27 I'm on Tik Tok now. I've never posted but Crimson Education has a new Tik Tok channel. So I, I follow. I joined Tik Tok for that purpose. So now I follow Crimson Education and, and I've seen some like it's really interesting platform like there's so many back to two years ago, when it first started, it was just like people doing random dances. And now it's like, all kinds of things going on there people giving stock tips and like a Korean dad sharing his life story and an old grandma sharing like, it's crazy how like diverse it's become. The spectrum is insane. So I think tik tok is a really interesting platform. But I think you always got to be you got to take like, some of the political statements with a bit of a grain of salt. Sometimes some people might be, you know, obviously, with a bit of bias, putting content out there. So you got to double check your facts in some respects. But you want to tick taco What's your favorite social platform? Danielle 49:24 I do like Instagram. I think that's my main one. I'm Danielle.g_ on Instagram. I like that. I really like the the story feature and the Explore page and kind of games see that and then repost. Um, I think that has been big for me, but I think that the Tik Tok algorithm is very interesting and also very addictive. I think that's why I've stayed off I think a couple times, my friends like school and be like, oh, wow, like you really don't stop scrolling like they purposely do that like long and lists feed you can scroll on for forever. I think Instagram is also addictive, but little less And I also I just started the social dilemma. I think I fell asleep the first few minutes. But that I think it talks about like the how all these things are created to be addictive and kind of the trappings that can come with that. So I hope Podcast Host 50:11 I hope you went tired because you were like on Instagram too much, and you're just like, fell asleep? No, I've seen social dilemma, it's well worth a watch. You know, again, like, you got to kind of take some of it with a grain of salt, but certainly did make me delete a few apps at the end of watching the social dilemma. So I hope you enjoy that. But yeah, let's, uh, let's get your final advice for students going forward, whether they be in high school or whether they be in university. Now, in terms of like, I think, you know, you might come from a different angle, but I think, generally speaking, how to make the most of that high school to university time or even that time at university. Like how do you make it? I'm just really, I really love that idea that you're not making it about the coursework too much, and that you're making it about the experiences and the people. And what was that quote, don't let your classwork given the way of good education or something like that. Danielle 51:13 Cool. get in the way of your education. Podcast Host 51:15 Right. Right. Right. I think that's such an interesting thought. Yeah, I'd like to just get your final thoughts on how that's played out in your life? Danielle 51:24 Yeah, I think definitely, um, that growth mindset thing is very important. So I think always be willing and open to change, I think that can be very hard. I know, I have anxiety. And sometimes I'm in a room and I'm like, I just want to stay in my shell. But I think just always being willing to be open and learning things as well. I think there's things that like I, in high school never tell you that I liked or was passionate about. But then just having that growth mindset and being open, I found out about things. And because I was open, I was able to pivot to them. And really, like get submerged in Everest, I feel like I even know people. And some of my best friends are kind of like, on the straight path, people had told them what was a great profession to be in what was a great school to go to. So they felt like, Okay, I'm gonna do that. And they just stay on that path. And it was much more structured. And I think that that can work for some people. But I also think that sometimes when you're just on a mission to go somewhere, you don't like stop and look around at the surrounding. So I think just always being open, and not being afraid if your path isn't linear. I think we're taught that like, this happens, this happens, this happens. And it's all in a straight line if you want to be successful, but I think it's not like that. And not to be afraid of failure. It comes with the territory. And I think for all the scholarships, we talked about getting like any scholarship, I won, there was actually 20 applications 20 no's as well, right? It's a story of success. Also, it's a story of failure. Podcast Host 52:53 I love that I'm actually going to ask you about the failures that you're most proud of, I think is an interesting way to think about failure. Sometimes we think we need to reframe the conversation. So yeah, I'm going to ask that question, because I've almost forgot to ask it. I've never asked that question before. But like, what are the failures that you're most proud of like putting yourself out there, you may not have got the result that you wanted, but God damn it, you put yourself out there, right? Danielle 53:18 Yeah, I think I'm very, like, happy that I got deferred. Um, I think that was like a whole like, moment for me emotionally. And being a very stressed out senior in high school. It wasn't like a positive emotional moment. But I think now being in the position, I wouldn't be in the position I am now I think I was regularly admitted to MIT. I think that's kind of what it became more of an experience for me more so than just an academic pursue. And so I think being deferred, it was crushing at the time. I definitely cried a lot. So it was in my room Jagger cried for a couple days, and then oh, no, we're Podcast Host 53:57 Okay. Those emotional scars have healed. Danielle 54:01 They have no, they've definitely healed and I can say, Look, I'm better for it. And I'm grateful for it. Because I think it's very easy to get bogged down into what's the best school, what's the school for you versus being able to adopt that? I'll be okay, no matter where I go. And I think everyone here listening, you can have a dream school, and that's great. But also you'll be okay, no matter what. And I think that's important. Podcast Host 54:23 Awesome, awesome. Well, Danielle, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the top of the class. I know, our listeners are going to really enjoy the chat and your advice. And hopefully, they'll follow you on Instagram, and can stay in touch with whatever's going on, as the student body president for the 2021 year at MIT, which is an awesome achievement. So yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show. Danielle 54:43 Yeah, thank you for having me.

Ep #19 Building Companies, Writing Books and getting into Harvard Business School

🗓 DEC 16, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:20 I'm your host, Alex Cork. And in today's episode, I chat with Kaushal Reddy Ottem. Kaushal started two companies in high school, has written five books, and has just been accepted to Harvard Business School at the age of 17. We talk about fast tracking, education, coding, business building and getting into habit. Let's chat with casual ready autumn. Hi, Kaushal, welcome to the top of the class podcast. fantastic to have you on the show. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Kaushal 00:48 Thanks, Alex, for inviting me here, it's a pleasure to share the stage with you. I'm Kaushal. And now I'm currently doing my post graduation and RMIT Masters in Business Administration, major technology and innovations. It's quite research based. And I'm in the final year recently, you know, I'm according to Harvard Business School, to do my strategy research over there. Think surely we can formation strategy, disruptive strategy, and basically with entrepreneurship and innovations. Podcast Host 01:18 Okay, and you're how old? Kaushal 01:20 I'm 17. Podcast Host 01:22 And you've already been accepted into Harvard Business School, what's the general age that people would usually be accepted into Harvard Business School? Kaushal 01:30 either it's not like, I'm not like other countries. So you know, there's a lot of people from us from the states that have done it and engage, you know, somebody graduated, somebody did a post graduation and powered by 15. And, you know, I've heard a lot of stories of many people accelerating in our that are from the States. And generally speaking, if you wanted to post graduation at avid, you're doing the undergraduate degree, or you will be needing to prove that you know, some other experiences or some other, you know, extracurricular activities like you've undergone outside and you're supposed to file an application, but the chances of getting accepted are quite, quite high with Howard. And as you know, the acceptance rate is quite, you know, 5% or 6% or something. Yes. Podcast Host 02:10 So, you're going to be probably one of the youngest students there, are you actually going to do your degree on campus? Kaushal 02:17 My ones PG, and you know, it's like a cert, so what's going to happen is that if I want to if I want to continue the complete PG, the postgrad, after cert, you know, I'll explain the different stages, right stage one cert, if I want to be doing the old thing, yes, I do have to move to on campus, but proven that it's COVID time and, you know, international students and things like that. It's going online at the moment. But you never know. So, you know, if COVID just continues along, you know, I'll finish it online, and you know, COVID just ended and then you have to move so, you know, it's all it's all this kind of practices. Podcast Host 02:51 are will take me to that moment where you knew that you had gained acceptance to Harvard Business School, that must have been a pretty like, impressive and important moment for you in your life. Kaushal 03:00 Yes, it was quite that moment that okay, yes, I was quite relieved, it's Harvard. It has to your resume, and it adds weightage. And, you know, when you say that, you know, you're either graduated or you've been to other, it's just the feeling just changes around your, the circle, you know, the name itself has some, some kind of narrative that just comes from, from the older generations. So I was quite relieved. And, you know, I was quite, I was quite happy with it. But again, speaking of the nature, I was more happy because, you know, Harvard is something that, that has a lot of like minded students, or they create this mental atmosphere and space of thoughts and ideas, new ideas, new innovations, and US which is known as Silicon Valley. And, you know, something that, you know, adding to innovations and I thought it's such a such a good thing and it's such an honorable moment to attend such a prestigious university. Podcast Host 03:49 Is that some of the reasons why that you applied because obviously, you've got your own business, which we're going to be talking about soon, but is that kind of prestige and network and having that you know, have a name next to your name now, for the rest of your life as you know, you'll be a graduate of a postgraduate student of how a business school is that one of the reasons why you applied and really wanted to get in? Kaushal 04:12 Certainly not. The reason being that, you know, firstly, before doing RMIT, post grad, I was I was given a similar offer from University of Melbourne, you know, which which we all know that uni Melbourne is one of the top universities from Australia, but I've said I don't want to do uni Melbourne, I want to go into RMIT because I RMIT the program structure looked for me It looked better and looked like you know, it fits my life. And you know, something about avid, you know, definitely the prestigious name is always there. But definitely I would say the like mindedness of our you know, when they provide you such a, you know, when they have the experienced professors experienced teaching and experience to network, that is what I think that definitely plays a role. You know, if you're surrounded by people that are quite, quite ambitious, they're quite intellectual and are quite, you know, that are quite giving something in or something in terms of researcher in terms of productivity, then the old atmosphere and then the old feeling around new changes. And I just believe that not that that's the main reason you're the network, the professors and the ideas, thoughts, more than just having an hour with me, you know, these days, you know, you could you could just get a degree and immediate end of the day. So you know, it's important to just gain the knowledge. Podcast Host 05:18 Yes, absolutely. Talk me through what you have actually finished. Have you finished school and your undergrad and another degree at RMIT? Or what exactly Have you already completed? Kaushal 05:28 So I finished my Year 10 last year. And then, you know, I firstly enrolled into VCE at RMIT, RMIT, office VCE. And then what happened in March was that somebody told me that, you know, having the profile, adding new work experience and things like that, then they made me go into undergrad, and I undergrad like the four subjects finished them in June. I didn't have undergrad that was in it computer science. Podcast Host 05:54 Okay, so you actually haven't yet graduated technically from high school? Kaushal 05:59 Technically, no. Podcast Host 06:00 Okay, so they accepted you into the undergrad program at RMIT. Because of your work experience, and because of your profile, and they're like, hey, yeah, you could go straight into undergrad, even without a official High School Certificate. And then after doing a couple of courses there, you were able to apply to Harvard Business School. So are you a graduate of RMIT, at this stage? Kaushal 06:21 No, I'm still doing my RMIT post grad. Podcast Host 06:24 Right. Kaushal 06:25 I still have to finish. So you know, I'm, I'm like four subjects now. Okay, do the MBA program into the official program. So I still have to finish that one or two. And then with avid, you know, the acceptance is quite high with our The reason being that, as I said before, our does not look for, you know, degrees, or, you know, your previous experience with education. You know, we all know that Harvard has produced some of the greatest issue and, and the reason being that our actually looks for your experience in your class, in terms of what you've done, you know, programming and application, and you're taking it to millions of people that, you know, as you read the profile and and when our looks at those things more than you know, your profile or your scores in you know, yet well, or undergrad or things like that. Podcast Host 07:08 So in terms of your overall profile or application to Harvard, can you talk me through that a little bit? Like what did that actually look like? What were you trying to present to Harvard, to make them say that you were a good fit for them. Kaushal 07:22 So you know, if you if you went to the avid website, and you know, tried finding the strategies, or the entrepreneurship, and you know, you're catching up of courses for organizational factors under the PG organizational practices, you know, you've got such as to do with strategies, you've got something to do with marketing, you've got different different fields out there. And when you try picking the right one, what you've got to present to our with that, is that, you know, it's not about why you're a good fit to them, is that why do you need our in your life? And, you know, what can you do with it, in terms of them pushing you, um, you know, avid does not need to sense that, you know, that they can just make a name of firewood wants to push students are doing well. So I presented, you know, whatever the technology is that I developed, you know, the books that I have done, and then you know, if you, if you google with it, I've got some publications, so, you know, with the publications with the collaborations, and, you know, things like that, you know, more of the nature was from computer science background, but it was good enough, or it was, I don't know what they felt like, but, you know, they felt I could pull it off and, you know, migrates from RMIT, were relatively, if they were HDS. Moreover, in the PGS, and, and they were quite happy, you know, with getting over nine peace in RMIT, and things like that, and they were quite happy to take me, I just got an email to, you know, just fill up my profile. And that was it pretty much. Podcast Host 08:37 Right. So it's kind of like you've been on this fast track for a little while now, where you're kind of not following the traditional, you know, finish high school that I take and go to university, that kind of thing. What was the original idea behind you fast tracking all of this, you know, you'd started your own company. And you thought, all right, I'm going to set the goal of going to university, getting my undergrad, my post grad, going to maybe Harvard was in your thinking back then. But what was the original motivation for you to push things ahead quite quickly, Kaushal 09:10 to the motivation to push things quite quickly is that I do know what I wanted to see the point of adding High School, it's not teaching you like you know, from up until year 10. You experiment a lot with subjects, you know, you've got robotics, you've got this, you've got that little things like that. You experiment a lot to pick your favorite subjects. And all of this is to know that you know, what you're doing, or you know, what you want to do, such as, you know, what pathway you want to choose in life, whether you want to do a doctor, whether you want to do computer science, whether you want to do business management and things like that, but you already knew, I knew. So what I knew was, you know, being at this for what, seven years, like, you know, when I started to program at the age of 10, now at the age of nine, and you know, what I wanted to knew because it was a clear cut goal, you know, I've learned programming so I know that it was computer science, but and mixed, you know, some kind of business element. So at the time, when I Started maybe intended to Well, it was all about programming and you know, just doing it for the sake of doing it. But when I was 12-13, things are very serious. And, you know, I started to plan out, okay, if I wanted to develop something, what purpose does it have in other people's lives, and I started to think chronologically, rather than just developing blindly or developing some kind of a product that's been there, I started to in a way, you know, more of a focus on newer technologies, newer trends, like artificial intelligence, machine learning, or something along those newer lines. And when I started doing that, I knew that, you know, research would be a very good subject or, or matter of time, because, you know, I've been into this research, research technologies and things like that, you are there, you're 15 in an age of 16, and you know, that find your proper work experience covered up, you know, 30 plus hours a week, so, and definitely school I was balancing, you know, I was I wasn't, you know, sometimes I wasn't performing well, I was doing the exams, exams were like acing the exams, like when it came to 85-90% to do with English, maths, a couple of my favorite subjects, and definitely it is more. But other subjects when it came to chemistry, physics, biology, I was always I was always lacking in I was barely, like, you know, barely crossing over the line. Podcast Host 11:10 It wasn't a focus for you, though, right? Like, it wasn't your main goal to do that. Kaushal 11:13 It wasn't a focus for me in the school year. And then I went to a private school, and the school knew that and the school said, you know, what you want to do? Well, you know, you, you know, what you're going through, and I said, if you don't want to do science, please try it for the sake of doing it. But you know, we're not really going to be very, very concerned about, you know, you're doing fine. So unless and until if you want to go and pick it up in the future. Right. And, you know, I got that support. And you know, and I knew that the tradition of the, you know, Australian education system, it's not like compared to some other countries where you have to pass every single subject, I had this, you know, kind of nature, and then I was doing well, and then I've taken this covered the experience and, you know, relatively, you know, in my free time I used to the coding cover the experiences develop the technologies marketed as the network and expertise. And they came a point at 16 and 17 are fast tracking options. And, you know, in terms of fast tracking, I've got offers from first offer was from union sake, that was in business side of things, majored in entrepreneurship and innovations, right? And the reason of this innovations, you know, people ask me, why aren't you doing computer science or anything like that? Because you've been a programmer, and I said, Sure, the basic lines of it, and they expect you to learn, or they expect you to progress using that. And that's what people have been doing. So I said, Man, I've already I've already done this before. Now, the program has already developed many applications. And what's the point of me redoing this? Can you reason I haven't picked computer science, because I knew the first two or three subjects that are five was also boring, Podcast Host 12:35 Because it was like covering things you'd already learnt yourself. Kaushal 12:37 Yes. And even in the third year, I've tried one subject from the third year, and, you know, it wasn't much of a progressive, it wasn't like machine learning artificial intelligence that I that I didn't know of. Podcast Host 12:46 Harvard Business School is probably the place to be in that case. Kaushal 12:49 Yeah. And the reason why I would probably say, HBS, for the strategies is that, you know, they help you in terms of, you know, diversified strategies, and you know, COVID, under the cabinet, right, well, things have changed, you know, business's operations have changed the way of expertise in, in a couple of things have changed. So, it does give us a pleasure to look into things when it comes to us, when it comes to, you know, transformation strategies, you know, how do we go on about this? How do we do the future, you know, people have been saying work from home, people have been saying, you know, differently, you know, this kind of thing, you know, they want this kind of lifestyle, people have been moving to, you know, work from home, they've been moving to regional places. So, you know, there's so much of happening with lifestyles, and you know, and our business, which is quite, which is far into that research, which is quite into the future thinking. And, you know, I do, I do believe, you know, he just gives us fat to show that slight advantage of looking into things and, you know, grasping over the market very quickly and rapidly. Podcast Host 13:43 It must have been a fairly brave decision, though, to fast track everything, because I think a lot of people who are in your situation, who do know what they want to do, who are academically very advanced, they would probably argue that socially, they would prefer to stick with people who are 16-17 years old, and not necessarily go to a place where people are like, 19, 20-21 years old, what's it been, like, from a social standpoint, making that transition, Kaushal 14:11 immediately this year, you know, most of my batchmates at RMIT are in a different various, you know, they're in 282-9 with people in 33-34 people have, you know, 15 years, 20 years of work experience that are just doing their own graduation. And, you know, people returning to study after two years to do their research work and, you know, go on to do their PhDs. You know, we've got a lot of people are at different stages of life and, you know, socially, socially, it's challenging, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. You know, the reason being that you cannot always be in your comfort zone, you know, you've got to step out of your comfort zone. And when you do that, you start losing days, you know, you start either losing your family time losing, you know, other aspects of your life, you know, things to do with your school friends, things to do with, but that's the, that's the beauty about, you know, shaping you up into a new person or into a person that's going to achieve something much bigger than this. Podcast Host 14:59 You Yeah, I think it's that getting out of your comfort zone. But that must have been a fairly hectic first couple of weeks didn't how you came to be so clear cut, because a lot of students who are 1415 1617, they might have a particular interest or passion, but they also don't want to take a risk and commit to that path, because that might cut them off from other opportunities that they might enjoy. So how is it that you are so definite and clear cut about what you want to do? Kaushal 15:30 I'll plug this analytically at 14 or 15. The reason being that because you know, I've been programming since little and you know, machine learning, artificial intelligence was definitely tough, you know, to always take it on. But you know, being in that for four years, and you know, doing that it's not always you cannot say no, I'm done with this, I'd rather go into an easy field, you're in that field. And you're it's a continuous process of doing stuff. And I've seen many people, even when it comes to Australia that ended up needing to WWDC in a worldwide developer conferences, Apple scholarships, definitely, you know, there are people younger than me that are very clear cut on this, and you've got a very clear cut. But this is what I want to do things like that, when you mentioned that people are confused on what they want to do there, those people that have been following the traditional pathway, you know, from 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, that are dependent, that are highly dependent on schools, schools to give you the motivation, the choice in the interest to find your passion, but they're not the sole reasons, you know, they only tell you like, you know, one or two lines, and you've got to make use that two lines to continue the process. Podcast Host 16:35 I think that's one thing that you've obviously done very well, is that ability to learn outside of school, and from your age of 9, 10 years old, picking up coding and starting to program code, that type of thing. What was that? Like? And I don't know if you remember that long ago, I guess eight years ago. Now? What was your first kind of introduction to programming and coding? Was it your parents and introduced you? Was it a friend? Kaushal 16:59 Do you remember, it was my parents because my mom comes from a computer science background, she was lecturing in India, like, Professor, that's helpful, that's definitely helpful. Because you know, she's got the book sellers, the first introduction when I started reading them, and I found it relatively something that I wanted to be can pounce upon coding. And it's something that most people want to do at a young age, because you know, you don't really have any other options, you know, you cannot, cannot really learn anything outside. You can do sports, but apart from sports, if you think about other subjects, like, you know, music or arts, if you remove them, when you're trying to learn something else, like educational categories, yes, you cannot learn business, you know, business is definitely something different, you know, so something about self learning is coding is such a good subject to start. And it's not something that everybody needs. Podcast Host 17:49 It's pretty, like black and white, right? Like you're saying business or that kind of philosophical stuff. When you're nine and 10 years old, a lot of that stuff goes over your head. But when it comes to coding, it's kind of like these, the numbers that you have to plug in, this is the code that you have to put into the formula. And then you can kind of go from there. So it's pretty easy or not easy, but I guess it's more well suited to younger students, if they're wanting to learn something. And it's not some kind of like, sport music type of thing. Definitely, in Kaushal 18:17 coding something at a young age, you can easily learn coding until the intermediate level. And that's when after the intermediate level is when the art thing starts. You know, that's when you need other aspects, such as you know, you need research skills, you need business skills, you need other skills, you know, to take your idea or to take that knowledge and apply it into an application or weddings or whatever that you want to eat. Podcast Host 18:39 Okay, and that's something that you have done with your businesses. So can you talk to me a little bit about what your businesses are? Firstly, Kaushal 18:47 I put two, he said, so one is kind technologies. The other one is, you know, push out innovations. The other one, the two stardom innovations is only there just to procure my innovations, like, you know, you need a company just to, you know, just add the innovations name under rather than money. Yes, well, is the entity and the other one kind of technologies, Podcast Host 19:06 Kite technologies? And what do you do through that? Kaushal 19:08 through that, you know, we, we develop things, you know, we develop, you know, group of other games. So, either when it comes to, you know, technology, such as web applications and things like that, we come up with our own ideas, and something like, you know, for example, let's say you come up with an idea of, you know, deploying a game, and, you know, we've done, we do the game, and you know, we give it to the publishers, and in collaboration, we publish the games, because you need the publishers in terms of finances, or in terms of the things so that's what we've been doing. So, you know, we don't really call ourselves, you know, a company, we call ourselves an organization. And the reason being that, you know, we don't always do developing side of things, you know, we don't provide services like other companies do, because we will rather come up with our own own set of ideology, own set of innovations. So, you know, we're into that organizational space. But yes, you know, we want to expand or we want to, you know, we want to look into other things such as, you know, consultations or consulting into new techniques. Newer algorithms and things like that. But that's far away, you know? Because, you know, we need to consider other basics and other structures. Podcast Host 20:06 Yeah, absolutely. So who's part of the company? There's you? And is your dad part of it as well? I saw somewhere that he was, Kaushal 20:13 yes, you don't quite basically, you know, we've got our family being part of it. You know, we've got contractors, definitely when it comes to the developing nature that we outsource for different things such as, you know, UI design, UX designs, and when it comes to definitely you need marketing to be done on some applications, you know, some applications, the contractor would do the services, or the publishers would do the maintenance or the other marketing, sometimes you got to end up doing your own own strategy, tragical marketing or psychological things in case Podcast Host 20:42 You set your company up when you were how old 14-15? Kaushal 20:47 I was 15. So so the company was there for like, somebody operated on a different company name? So and I was there for four years. And they we just ended up canceling the name because that was pretty much it when I was say 15 or 16. Podcast Host 20:59 What was it like to be balancing school and a company and you know, you've got your parents helping you out and you're subcontracting. And I know that you had you were doing some innovations, then at the time, and I've read that you were creating like a watch for women who might be in danger, and they can immediately call emergency services. And you're working on some other things as well. What was that whole balancing act? Like? How are you managing your time during that crazy period? Kaushal 21:26 See, balancing has always been the key. Because you know, right now, it's, it gives me that so much of ample space, because you know, you've got your PC running, you know, your postcard running on, it's one of things, and you've got time to work. And you know, that's the good thing about fast tracking. That's the good thing about these aspects. But definitely, if you take me three, two years back, and you know, there was school happening, there was this there was that it was always, you know, you're not in that right environment to innovate. You know, there's always things coming at you like assignments. And there's always that feel, you know, what happens if the school doesn't pass me What happens if I don't pass this play, and you know, I better I better, you know, do something about this, you know, these things in life or these aspects in life that you think about when you're in that environment of school, but right now, it's different. But it's not about balancing, it's always about getting the structure or the strategy right in the first place itself. Podcast Host 22:15 Yeah, that must have been a bit of a steep learning curve for you, what advice would you give to other students who are looking to go through that starting up a business phase, because that must have been like, must have been a bit of an interesting phase for you. Kaushal 22:29 It's different for each person, it's different for each individuality and personality matters a lot depends on you know, whether you come from migrant family, whether you come from an established family out here, you've got a family business happening, there's so many other factors to consider, I know that, you know, a couple of my friends that are my age that are doing exceptionally well, you know, they've got established family businesses, and you know, they've taken that business to a whole new level with new ideas, and, you know, so they haven't started their own entity, but they've already had this established family business. And, you know, they've just taken that, you know, ended up escalating that into a new level. And it quite matters on what you want to do. The only thing I would probably advise is just to be prepared to make sacrifices. But in terms of you know, entrepreneurship innovations, you know, things change, you know, things change day to day, you know, something that I would say today will not be the same in one month time. Um, you know, things have been changing weekly, strategies have been changing weekly, in advisors have been changing Lincoln. So the only thing is not just people that make sacrifices and you know, things will fall in place. Podcast Host 23:26 What are the advantages or disadvantages of starting a company versus say, for instance, like, you could have been doing a lot of this stuff just on your own right, like, you would have just been coding or you would have been innovating things, but you decided to set it up as a company and create, you know, Secretary rows and managerial roles. What are the advantages or disadvantages of doing that? Kaushal 23:49 We did it for the legal sake of things. And I did it because, you know, for example, let's say I've done a publication or a research strategy based with your avatar, you know, we have been working on so what I'll do, what I want to be doing is that I want to secure that research into a company, I just want to be doing this because it matters in the long run, you know, if you add it on a company name, or entity name, what happens is the fight that you carry on becomes easier because I've been cheated two or three times, I had my coat stolen, you know, I had, you know, my ideas stolen and things like that. Even and, you know, some cases that I've lost in India too, you know, because it was too hard. You know, it was too hard to go and fight a case and things like that. But having that on a company makes a lot easier for the court or for the for the highest sake of things that you know, okay, this is registering your company saying that a belongs to a company belongs to an organization and you've got roles within the organization. So you've got multiple people that can wipe out multiple people that can fight compared to one person. Right. Okay, that's the entity side of things because we are into innovations, you know, because we're into innovations. That's what we've done. But again, if you want to be service based, you know, I could always say that, you know, I want to be a freelancer. I want to be, you know, normal contract. developing applications. And you know, I'm not doing that, you know, I'm not doing that because, you know, I'm into the newest side of things, Ai, and things like that. But if I was in that field of you're just developing an application for the sake of developing an application for others, then definitely I would have done it on my Podcast Host 25:15 own. Yeah, it was for the legal application mainly, and the ability to if you do create anything that you want to keep it closer to, I guess, home, and not have the ability for people to steal it, can you talk us through that, you know, having your code stolen? And what that was like? And did you ever think someone would do that too, Kaushal 25:35 as a young kid, politically, you don't know that you know, about the world. So pretty much no, you're quite inexperienced with the world or what's happening around you what's happening with things around you. So you know, I, I've ended up developing one of an application, that's an operating system. So I developed a Linux based operating system that can be used for as a widest thing, you know, you've got the penetration tools and things like that, I was about to get that registered on my name, but and it started, you know, a cyber attack on my server, or things like that. And, you know, it just ended up taking off, I was deployed somewhere else. And, um, you know, all of these things do happen in today's world, you know, there's so much of, you know, horrible things happening, I would probably say, wherever that you're innovating, wherever you're researching, there's always some stupid things going on. So it's important that you're quiet, you know, you're quite brave enough for that. And you're quite brave enough that you know, you do something like me, or you do something like, you're not what some people have done. Yes. So you can have it under the company's name. And you know, when you think you're good enough, and you think you've got the technology, when you think you can deploy it, it becomes a easy structure. And as you said, it's very important that I will complete in our world and you know, look into things such as you know, going into Silicon Valley. Yes. And that's when when you go to Silicon Valley, you do work for others, but again, your technologies that you develop in the company, see, and you know, you can always take that company out to Silicon Valley, or, you know, to other other places, and deploy the technology. So, you know, give it to other people that came and said to all you level Podcast Host 26:55 that, yeah, no good advice for students out there who are interested in doing this kind of thing that they need to have a serious thought about taking their skills to the next level. And potentially putting it under a company name is one of the ways that they can protect what they're making. Kaushal 27:09 A lot lot of people don't know about this, that you know, that they ask, you know, why the company? Why the company, if you aren't working and things like that, are your business going to say? No, it's for the legal side of things, or it's for the registration of research projects, publications, or applications or procurement of technologies. That's pretty much it. But you know, apart from that, you know, we could do this on our own, you know, if the world was at peace, you know, everything was going well, we would just be doing it on on, you know, we could make things very easy. Podcast Host 27:36 But the world's not that kind. So it's probably Kaushal 27:40 not gonna take that time. But I'm gonna say that you know, that we don't have things going in our way. Nobody so much of other things. So that studies in your legal side of things, it's important to be not safe, safe zone. Podcast Host 27:50 What are some of your main interests in the areas that you work in? So you do programming developing in terms of the many different directions that that skill set could take you in? What are some of your main areas of interest at this point, Kaushal 28:06 we're trying to focus on transformational design, or conformational design structures that has to do with getting in technology procuring technology in terms of designing it, changing it into an organization leaps, but it's on transformational design. Podcast Host 28:20 Okay, transformational design. And that's something that you see is like Silicon Valley is the place that you want to go to eventually to really amp that up. Kaushal 28:28 Definitely, I just believe that Silicon Valley, as the network, you know, to do that Silicon Valley is an advantage the US because you look at Whatsapp, Facebook, Instagram, everything came from Silicon Valley, every single app, Apple came from Silicon Valley, you know, Microsoft came from Silicon Valley, Amazon came from Silicon Valley. So every every innovation that's actually been talked about came from Silicon Valley, it's because they have the expertise, the budget, and the thing. And I believe that, you know, we don't really have something Silicon Valley, or we don't even have something 5% close to Silicon Valley, which we won't be building upon you. That's one thing that we've been raising, you know, we've been constantly raising with the with the ministers or with the, with the MPs that, you know, they'll be we want this, you know, some students or not for the students, but for the sake of, you know, we want to have the name Australian written all over it. Podcast Host 29:12 Right. Now, I want to get down to some nuts and bolts here casual talking about like the top tips from you, for students who want to kind of emulate a little bit about what you've done. So let's break it down a little bit and take it one by one. What would be some of your first tips for students who are interested in programming who are interested in computer science but might not know really where to start? Or you've got those students who have made a start but don't really know where to go to from their type of thing. So what would you give in terms of that computer science programming, developing advice for both those audiences, your students who haven't yet made a start but are interested or their students who have made a start but don't know where to go? Kaushal 29:54 It's important to look into the first two aspects that the first two years that it's not going to be easy because You want to be learning and you know, just dedicate two years, I mean, I'd say two years, I would probably say, you're looking somewhere around easily 2500 to 4000 hours just to dedicate yourself to programming. It's important that you learn basics of all programming like Java, HTML, you know, c, c++, and you know, the five or six programs, it's important that after the first year, then the second year you x you major in one of them, like, you know, you might major in Python, or you might major in HTML, then, you know, there's so much technologies like, you know, Angular, React, native, hybrid cross platform applications, that it's just developed to all your levels. So you need a lot of time to consume. So it's important that you get aware of all technologies, learn, and then spend time learning the five to six basics, and then spend time majoring in one of them. Podcast Host 30:47 Which one do you major in? Kaushal 30:48 So the technologies I major in our flutter react, and then the basics that I know in C, c++, Java and HTML? Okay. So that's what I majored in with technologies and programming would be tightened. So it's very important that you, you know, after getting to know this, then after the first two years, then you know, once you know, this, it's important for the third year that you know, you're quiet work on developing practical skills, like you know, so you've learned, and it's time to apply what you've learned earlier, make sure that you try developing applications or you know, you'll find that and you slightly progress through. And that's going to be three years and one after three years, you're set. You know, once you can develop a full fledged application, then you know, you'll be developing apps like in no time, you'll be developing, you know, things within you know, your loved one every day, or you know, that you do one every week. Podcast Host 31:36 So you can develop an app in a week. Kaushal 31:38 Depends on how long you want to spend for it. Like, you know, when people want to say not only have 10 hours to spend for a week, that's fine. But let's say I work, you know, I did 25 hours in a week and 25 hours weekdays. So what I did, I did 40 hours. So you know, 40 hours, I had not been one enough week. Podcast Host 31:54 So you were doing like a 40 Hour Workweek on top of your schoolwork. Kaushal 31:59 Yeah, that's been the advantage for hashtag because, you know, I could explain what they mean, the full time work experience, right? Podcast Host 32:05 You didn't like stuff around wasting time playing fortnight or those kinds of things too much. Kaushal 32:09 I never played fortnight like I don't know how to play it. I sometimes I did play pub g because it was mobile gaming. I like a mobile gaming. But I did play a lot of cricket during the holidays like physical sport. Yep. I know. I'm a game developer. You know, I just didn't go to a lot of physical rather than, you know, most technological gaming. Podcast Host 32:29 Fair enough. Okay, so you're that's really good advice for the programmers developers out there. Did you ever put apps on the App Store and that kind of thing? Kaushal 32:37 I did. So I the the publishers did. For example, whatever I developed, I gave it to the publishers. Right. So you know, we've caught as I said, You know, I developed one of the cricket games in that as a 15 million downloads. Wow. So that was a bandage that I proved out or approved. I MIT, you know, this is what I can do. Podcast Host 32:55 What's that game called? How can people find it? Kaushal 32:57 So you could just Google real cricket? Podcast Host 32:59 Real cricket? Kaushal 33:00 Yeah. And you know, but you get the latest version, which I'm not part of, but I gave up the previous version. And, you know, I was I was only part of the game writing. But again, there's a lot of this was a project that has that has helped us because for this project, you needed designers, like you needed graphic designers, you needed editors, you need a desk, you know, you need unity creators, you needed, you know, the illustration of players. When I was working on this three years ago, what ended up happening is that collaborating with these many people or collaborating with such a big unit, when they did the design, get out that you know, it is not about computer science. It's also about business people, marketing people. It's all he calls it, it's all about different. So it's all about collaboration. Podcast Host 33:42 Yeah. And so you got all these different people that you had to work with. And that was a, I guess, a really steep learning curve, when you're made to like, Oh, I forgot to do a group project. And you're like, well, I'm trying to create an app that I need to work with all these people as well. It's just part of part of life. Really. Yeah. Kaushal 33:57 So but the advantage was that because you know, they had the other three or four previous editions established publishers. Advantage was that you know, what they did? You know, wasn't they designed it yet, and they ended up sending the designs, and we just have to quote for it. Very simple. But in other cases, you know, right now, I'm working on a project that, no, they wouldn't design, we just have to collaborate together to get that idea formed. So you know, things do vary. And on the note, I wanted to add something very quick for the programmers was that what I did, or what I found was that the first two or three weeks, it took me to build an application, find a building some solid application. And what happens is you can build something in a week, it's because you can end up getting that code and just changing it a bit to play around with an application. So you know, as long as it's your own code that you've written out. So you can always Copy that. And you could always paste that into a new form of application and then, you know, just just rework around that to fit that purpose. Podcast Host 34:53 You don't need to rewrite it every single time. Kaushal 34:55 Yeah, then things become very easy. Podcast Host 34:57 That's a good tip. So you've covered the The programming development side of things. Give me a few tips on the writing side of things because you're a multiple published author on Google Scholar as well as Amazon. Why did you see that as something that you really wanted to do when things were so busy? Kaushal 35:14 publications have to be done? Because publications have to be done through university like you need to do the publication's definitely do Podcast Host 35:20 the Google Scholar stuff. Kaushal 35:22 Yeah. So that's a cool book. And and some of the publications that I've done is something that I've taken the university publication to a new level, collaborating with other individuals from a different research background from different universities, like uni, Melbourne, or boutiques, and then just end up collaborating to take that into a new level to do an event publication. Right, something that I enjoyed, but again, the advantage of the books is that, you know, they provide you with, you know, it's not like a tips book, it's not about an how to become a millionaire or things like that, but the books are based upon a clear cut profound strategy. So you know, it's very important that a lot of people do think that, you know, other EU degrees and nonsense that you don't need university that you can just do computer science, learn outside and just go out and, you know, be baffled upon the world. It's not true in the sense is that, you know, there's a lot of TV's organizational practices that that to teach you in the university is just that you cannot depend on them, you've got to take that out. And you've got to explore on that. So when you do that, on your own, what happens is that you clean atmosphere and you create thoughts, you create diversity, and, and that's when you're all the writing just happens on its own. Podcast Host 36:28 And you were a self published author, or is it a books, Kaushal 36:31 it's ebooks, so you could just download an Amazon. So what I had to do to get the books written, and then I had to send it to Amazon, and then Amazon aiders, they would approve it. So once they would approve it, for example, Google does not because Google's a self publishing author, yes. But Amazon, because it has to be on Amazon, what Amazon does, is when you, when you send the book to them, like the ad copy in the E book, both of them, they quickly approve it, making sure that there's no plagiarism, there's nothing that you know that you're quite unique, and they will publish it. Podcast Host 36:59 Okay? And is there any kind of benefit for you from that? Is it just kind of like the personal experience and being a published author? Kaushal 37:08 See, there is always a benefit when you write books, because it's very easy that, you know, I can I can walk up to a university, and then as you said, aavid, or anything like that, you could always send them your books, and you know, they'll just, they'll have a peek through, and you know, just start reading it, you know, the structure, or the capability of this person, say, No, if you read my book, you will know that I know, this author, you know, this author has a writing style is it's not about writing style, but he's got he's got concepts, he's got design, he's got context in it. Yes. And the other aspect is that, you know, you apply this practices in place, so that, you know, even you people can read it. So I post on Instagram, and some people go through Instagram to buy it, and you'll get feedback such as, hey, you know, this practice has helped me with my organization. So the last book that I've written is completely, you know, it's completely problems, but a through a character that's based in India, like, you know, the problems that they're having with education system and things like that. Mm hmm. And, you know, somebody read it, and somebody read it, and they contacted me and said, I really appreciate your writing this book, because, you know, this has helped me to, you know, this is me to put in practice for my kid, that, you know, we cannot depend on this education system that, you know, I have to do something such as outside something outside the school have things in place, and, you know, just letting you know, off guard from traditional base, you know, do what he likes, right? It's not like, you know, just do it for the sake of published author, you know, it doesn't really help you. Podcast Host 38:24 Yeah, exactly, it kind of has to be out of your own passion and interest. But that's awesome, that you're contributing in that way. And I think that's a really interesting way for other high schoolers to do something like that, and probably have less barriers to getting published, then what they might think, right, they might think that they got to need to, you know, hire an editor, or they need to pay heaps of money to get published, Kaushal 38:44 ah, the books didn't, because even they ended up costing me around four to 5000 USD, for each book, The reason being that, it's because you know, the artwork that I have to get done, I have to make sure that it's unique, I have no copyright issues in the future show, what some people do is that they end up getting a stock image, and then they just change it a bit. But it's very important that when you do when you write a book, it's very important that you know, even you spend like 500 to 600 USD, because you know, you're supposed to have that frame, even inside the book, you don't use features that are copyright. So you have to design a new set of digital designer. So all of the books ended up, you know, costing me somewhere around, you know, some some 1000, 2,000 the other one day three to 4000 because the technology budget 4000 for me, because I had to get so much of designs in there, there are no copyright. So it's important that you have no copyright issues. That's that's where the cost This is the copyright part. And then the designing part, you know, it's not, it's not very expensive, like 20 or $30,000. Podcast Host 39:40 Yeah, exactly. And I will put that in the show notes, actually, the links to your books, which I found on line there. And then the last thing to chat about is in the Harvard Business School, I know you've given some recommendations and tips already in terms of letting Harvard know how Harvard can help you become a better person or a better student. But is there any other tips that you would give for students who are going through the application process or who might want to go through the application process. Kaushal 40:08 Um, there's nothing like you know, any tips or tricks, but one thing is definitely is that if you're applying for a prestigious university or a university that that's like well known upon, hmm, they know this stuff, they look for iron Academy breaks one thing, but they also look for extra curricular activities like, you know, whether you're into programming, whether you have internships, whether you have your research projects, whether you have any publications in adipose fat level, and it's very important that you're quite active in your undergrad, which is quite active, that you're quite active in life, that you have all these publications or books or that, you know, technologies or that outside the box, rather than getting only 1990s 1990s each and every time. Podcast Host 40:46 Yeah, you need to show that you're special beyond your academic grades, like just being a very smart student doesn't necessarily mean that they're, you're going to get into a top university, that's for sure. And that's something that having worked at Crimson for a couple of years, I know very much about, Kaushal 41:01 I get a lot of stories for aldiko. Because, you know, a lot of people from India, you know, even the rich kids that cry outward, that can 1990s 1990s we know the Indian education is one of the toughest isn't that doesn't produce any grades, but it's one of the toughest for some reason. And when it's really, really tough, people get 1990s 90s. And then they get ejected out with one simple reason is that they can produce anything outside school. So that that's an important thing to keep in mind. Podcast Host 41:28 Fantastic. Is there any final tips that you would give to students on an academic front, like study tips, or how to kind of get yourself ready to do four or five hours of coding after a day of school, like, what kind of study tips or, or time management tips would you give to students Kaushal 41:45 can management would be would be, it's going to be one of the worst tips from my side. Because the reason why I would say that, you know, don't spend time if you don't like anything, but again, that doesn't go well with a lot of parents so that a lot of students and then talk to the school, it's very important that you know, in Australia, you can be very open with the right school, you can be open with the coordinator, you can go to the talk coordinator and talk to them. They know this is what I want to do. This is my passion. This is what I've been doing outside school and just tell them your situation, you will definitely find out and you know, if you don't, if you cannot find out what I've done, I've changed one of the schools because they weren't supportive, right at the admission level, you know, this is me, this is what I'm doing. And this is what I need. And they said, we'll definitely support you. So that's one thing that you could do just have to have the self confidence. Podcast Host 42:28 Yeah. And it's also I guess, having that support network around you, like, you know, you had your mom who was obviously I'm going to guess fairly integral to helping you find a love for computer programming and developing and finding other people around you who are going to support you and what you want to do, whether that be the school or your family or friends. Kaushal 42:47 That be a part of it. Podcast Host 42:49 Yeah, for sure. For sure. Casual Is there any way that people can get in touch with you and follow along with your your journey, Kaushal 42:55 I will probably say just the social handles that that's pretty much it. So it's just Facebook page, Instagram or LinkedIn, LinkedIn. Right? I just post a lot of things to do with you know, as I said, design thinking or, you know, entrepreneurship approaches. Gosh, it's Podcast Host 43:10 been awesome chatting, man, like I you know, massive congratulations on the Harvard ambition. Massive congratulations on the business ideas. And, you know, we look forward to seeing those innovations come to life. You know, I think they're kind of things that you're working on a real world problems. And it's awesome that, you know, at a young age, you feel that you are the right person to be doing this. I think a lot of students kind of say, Oh, well, I'm, you know, I've got this idea, but I'm only 15 or I'm only 16. There's probably someone else working on it, who's probably a lot older and a lot more professional. So why should I put that pressure on myself? But it's awesome that you've said, No, I'm 15-16, I've got the skill set. Why wouldn't I, right? Kaushal 43:47 I wouldn't say this, because the reason why change is a lot like, you know, the your network, it depends on your network, your expertise, like, you know, if you asked me to come come and be or as an educational consultant out like something like Crimson Education? Hmm, I don't think about like, you know, something that you guys know, something that you guys have the network in terms of, I've only dealt with one university, but you deal with multiple universities, right? Yes. So that's, again, the network like, you know, you know, most of the students do come to you. And for example, if I finished my hour of my graduation, now, I might come to Clemson again and say, Alex, I want to apply for Cambridge, I'm gonna apply for something else, can you help me with bribery? These are the things that you cannot take it out. And I'll probably say that, you know, are to collaborate with a data analyst write an ad to collaborate with some kind of, you know, some kind of a doctor to do medical innovation. So, you know, there's so much of things that led to the collaboration of two minds. So you can always say that, you know, you have the skills you're better if you do that, you know, you still lack the teamwork. You know, there's a lot of teamwork. Podcast Host 44:45 Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like, looking around you seeing what your network can provide you and seeing what ideas you have and then putting the two together, right. It's kind of like if I've got the idea who in my network and helped me turn this into reality. Kaushal 45:00 Yeah, collaborating is such an odd thing that you know, you put so much of, you know, this time factor. There's other things life lights going on other side life stop for you. So it's there's so much of things. It's important that you know, whatever the school teacher says, you know, the collaboration group projects that you have to do, because it happens in life. Very important. Yeah. Podcast Host 45:19 Exactly. Exactly. So do your group work is the moral of the story. Do your group work. Kaushal 45:25 Just that, you know, you need to do your group work. Make sure that you know, you know, this is just like you just goes on? Podcast Host 45:31 Yeah, exactly. Because it always comes up and you can never be even though you have like great skill sets on your own. You're always going to be collaborating with people. It's just a fact of life. But awesome chatting, Kaushal, all the best for you know, your journey to Harvard it. I'm sure it's going to be a really exciting one for you. And I'm sure some of our listeners will be keen to connect with you on LinkedIn. Kaushal 45:49 Thanks, Alex.

Ep #18 A Voice for Social Justice Goes Global

🗓 DEC 12, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and in this episode, I chat with 15 year old founder of the SheQuality blog, Yuko Nagakura. With a focus on feminism and social justice. The blog now has an international team of authors. In part due to her decision to join a global Online High School. We chat about the importance of young voices and why the process and not the number of followers should be the priority for any aspiring content creators. Let's chat with Yuko Nagakura. Yuko, fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yuko 00:50 So I'm a 15 year old girl from Kyoto, Japan, and I'm currently attending Crimson Global Academy. So in school, my main interest are in women's equality, education, equality, LGBTQ plus rights, and that sort of thing, along with business and mathematics. going to be talking about blog, I started that I was able to start because I was part of a global Online High School, Podcast Host 01:13 And that's SheQuality. Yuko 01:15 Yep. Podcast Host 01:15 Am I saying that? Right? Is that how you say it too? Yuko 01:17 Yep, you're pronouncing it correctly. Podcast Host 01:19 Okay, SheQuality. I love it. I love it. Let's go back a little bit. You've got an American accent by the sounds of things. And you live in Kyoto, Japan. So tell us a little about your story. How does someone find your way to Kyoto, Japan with an American accent. Yuko 01:32 So um, I was born in Tokyo actually. And when I was six years old, I moved to Honolulu. And that's where I went to elementary school. So for five years, I was in Honolulu. And it was a great time, obviously, always really chill. It's really great place to be and a lot of fun. Yeah. And that's kind of when I started getting an interest in mathematics. And originally in around grade five. And from there, I was exploring, like possible schools to attend in for middle school. And I found a school in San Francisco. And that's when I moved to San Francisco because it to attend a school that specializes in mathematics. Right. For three years, I had a great time. And we did a lot of math. And but the best part of being San Francisco for me was that it, I was able to find a passion in something else other than mathematics, which was in social justice, because they have such a diverse culture. And during those three years, my interest in social justice developed a lot, especially for women's rights and LGBTQ plus rights. And then after middle school, I was talking with my parents, and we were talking about possible options for high school. And up by that point, I'd been in the United States for eight years. And so I kind of lost touch with my identity and sense of being Japanese person. And I wanted to explore as much as possible in the world before I had to college and actually decide what I want to do. And I don't have that much flexibility. So I decided to move to Kyoto. And that's why I'm here today. Podcast Host 02:58 Right? So is your family with you? Yuko 03:00 Yet. My family's with me. Podcast Host 03:01 Okay, so you've all been a family unit. And you've gone from Japan, Tokyo, to Honolulu, Hawaii, to San Francisco, back to Kyoto. Yuko 03:10 Yep. Podcast Host 03:11 Wow. So you've done quite a few moves in quite young. And you've picked up obviously, like that worldliness, I think, is part of that journey that a lot of students go on when they do have to change countries and cities quite a lot. Would you say that the San Francisco experience has been kind of the city that has or that experience has shaped you the most in terms of who you are now in your identity? Yuko 03:32 Yes, San Francisco is definitely the place where I found my interest. But I talked with my parents about this. And I always say like, I would never wish that I moved to San Francisco at first, actually, when I was six, I really think those five years in Honolulu helped shape me. It's so different from San Francisco, and there's a lot less pressure in my opinion, and it's less like competitive and everything. And it allowed me to, to learn English, and B also just live freely and do what I want to do. So I didn't like swimming at the time and everything. And I was able to just take my time to do what I wanted to do. And that that time that was mathematics and, and so you do still love maths. So I definitely like math, and it's my favorite subject in school. I will say I'm not as interested as I was when I was in middle school. I'm in middle school, just I was obsessed with mathematics. And I finished calculus in eighth grade. So but through developing my interest in social justice and learning about ways to help, as of now I'm more interested in business for a while I want it to be a lawyer actually. But as of now, I think I'm really interested in the way businesses actually contribute to equality and fairness in a different way than what law does. One of the things I like about social justice is up. I've had my opinions, my opinions like my political opinions have changed so much. And it's really interesting to talk to people on like opposing sides and from like, different backgrounds and I think, you know, being from San Francisco, which is very progressive, versus Japan, which isn't so progressive. I've gotten to talk to a lot of people have different beliefs. And one of the things I like about that isn't really the case in math is that I now have to be open to changing my opinions. Whereas with math, once I'm certain, I'm kind of certain. Podcast Host 05:21 Yeah, so that's a really interesting thing about that kind of open mindedness. But one thing I'm interested in is, is there any kind of moment or story that you recall from a guess your time in San Francisco by the sounds of things or anywhere else that really opened your eyes to social justice? Yuko 05:39 So in sixth grade, I was, I guess that was my first year in San Francisco. And I was kind of just exploring, I didn't really decide anything, I wasn't really set on anything. But then I became friends with several people in my school and of different ages of different backgrounds. And from there, like they were already kind of interested in politics. And that's when I realized what the issues were. And it's actually around that time when the first 2016 presidential presidential election was occurring between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. And so everything was quite political, especially in San Francisco, where 99% rate of like Clinton, so yes, everyone was quite opinionated. Um, and that's when I realized, like, what politics wasn't actually started caring. And from there if things kind of took off, and I just gained this interest, and in seventh grade, I started a gender sexuality Alliance at my school, and where we explored, like topics related to LGBTQ plus rights and women's rights. And yeah, so say it was almost like a gradual process. But with like, like multiple events, kind of contributing to this growing interest, like the presidential election, and then I participated in the school walkout for gun control, for example. Podcast Host 06:58 Yeah. Do you remember when you started the Alliance, because I think that's like the first step as a young Yuko kind of taking a leadership role in the social justice space, it's going beyond an interest to actually saying, you know, I'm going to do something about the interest. What was that process? Like in from a kind of practical standpoint? Did you have to go and chat to anybody at the school? Or did you have to get some friends on board first? Or did you just kind of create a logo and say, with having an alliance or like, what was that process like? Yuko 07:29 Yep. So before I started anything, I was pretty close to a teacher, my, an English teacher. And we already started talking and like other extracurriculars about the possibility of GSA, because it seemed like crazy that there wasn't something like this already. Because there are so many kids who are interested in social justice and politics. And from talking about it from their states of like, several months for me and two of my friends to really put our foot down be like, yeah, this is actually something you want to pursue. And so we talked to that English teacher, and she helped us in starting an official school club. Podcast Host 08:06 Did you have a logo and a website? And did you have regular meetings? Or was it just like, this is a safe space for people to come? and chat about social justice issues? Yuko 08:15 Yep. So we did have weekly meetings every Wednesday. I think every Wednesday we had weekly meetings and be, I think, at the beginning of it, it was more of a safe space, where we kind of discussed and we're just doing things for fun. Honestly, we just enjoyed it. Yeah, we would bring in like, a topic and debate about it. For instance, the masterpiece cake shop case with, like, is rejecting a gay couple for creating a wedding cake. Podcast Host 08:44 I remember that. Yuko 08:46 And you know, doing debates about things like that, and kind of trying to come down to a conclusion altogether. And that's what it was at the beginning. And then we were like, okay, is this doing anything? Because after a certain point, we kind of realized, like, we're just doing this for fun, like, what do we want to do to make a difference? And so one of the things we started doing was, we started noticing issues within the school to point out and change. So for instance, we created a poster, we designed a poster talking about how harmful the saying no homo is, and we put that around the school, because we've heard that before within the school, or emailing the teachers, or the faculty about the possibility of having gender neutral bathrooms within the school. So we started by noticing issues within the school that wanted to change and trying to do something about it. And other than that, I left off at a point where we're trying to develop this discussion board. This where kids can put up discussions onto the board, or point out issues like anonymously that we can put up onto this board and try to help others. Podcast Host 09:57 Yeah, just kind of like facilitating tough discussions, right? Because it's quite a sensitive topic, some people might not want to put their name to it. So sometimes it's they're doing it anonymously, or whatever it might be, and how do you raise these topics in a safe way? Which is a really, you know, I think a lot of schools are still struggling with that concept. And a lot of not just schools, companies are still struggling with how do we raise these sensitive topics in a way that is safe and inclusive and doesn't create too much disruption to people's lives? That's a really interesting thing. I think it's really interesting how you had that kind of moment of, oh, we're here just having fun, we really need to start doing something. Right. What was it like when you first started putting those posters together? Because that sounded like one of the first activities you started doing when you like, Okay, this is no longer just our private club, where we chat and whatnot, we're going out and engaging the school community. And at the time, you're in like you seven or eight, doing that kind of thing. That must have been a pretty brave step for a young year, a 12-13 year old to take at the time. Yuko 10:59 So putting those posters up. I mean, we got some comments that it was spam. Maybe because we went a little bit overboard and potentially put up a little bit too much. But yeah, I guess the thing that probably helped the most was, I always knew that there was some support, even if it wasn't like the entire school supported this. I mean, I knew there was a teacher that did the heads of the school did. And they allowed us to, and I had the friends that I started with. And yeah, so having a support system from the start is probably the most helpful thing is like my parents were supportive of the projects, I was engaging and things like that. Podcast Host 11:36 Yeah, that's a really good tip. I think for students who want to start an organization like this at their school, right, it's about get, you know, you're not going to get 100% of people on board, even if it is like the most well intentioned, most necessary group for the school to have, it's virtually impossible to get 100% of people, there's always going to be the quote unquote haters out there. And right, it's just like having the key people who are the decision makers backing you that's really important. And looks like you got that sorted. So you have the confidence to go out and spam the school with a whole lot of posters, which is awesome. Talk me through the transition to Japan, and then the decision to start SheQuality? Yuko 12:15 So I would say transition to Japan was quite a bit of a shocker for me Actually, even being from Japan, myself, I wasn't in Japan for a whole eight years. And when I was six, I didn't care about those sort of issues. So when I first moved back, I was actually surprised by I was surprised by certain things. And when we buy menstrual products in Japan, there is a culture, I mean, not a culture, but it's almost like a rule where the store packages into this brown bag, like the packaging of this brown bag in order to hide it. And that was like a shocker. For me. That was one of the first things that kind of held me back. And then the whole issue with employers requiring female employees to wear high heels in the workforce, when that started becoming more international news. So I was like, oh, wow, Japan has a lot of issues. Why do they require women to wear high heels? I think it's, it's seen as professional. So similar to I mean, in the United States, it was the problem of like, and not being considered professional to not wear makeup to the workforce. In Japan, it's a whole new level where you have to wear high heels, like a full face makeup, like having your hair down. And they're just more requirements in looking professional for a woman, which makes things even harder for women who are in the workforce. Podcast Host 13:35 Right? So you're there, you're seeing this kind of big change from the very progressive San Francisco to kind of like a not necessarily backward but certainly a backward step in Japan, and you want to do something about it. Yuko 13:48 Right. And one of the most interesting things was this kind of contributed to it was for the first six months I was in Japan, I attended a normal Japanese high school that happened to have like a class for an English curriculum. And there were a lot of kids who cared about such topics. Like my old score, I was at tons of friends who cared coming to the friends was like, Oh, yeah, let's start this. I have that. And that was one of the most difficult things and also one of the I guess it was also a little bit concerning to me that there weren't a lot of kids who were interested in politics here, watching the television, all the politicians are old, and like by old like 60s 70s. And it's just it was concerning that like this is a reason why we this is a backward step. So during those six months, I honestly spent those six months just like thinking almost like I didn't do anything, because I almost felt stuck. And I didn't know what to do. And I was just thinking about these issues, but almost shoving into the back of my mind because I was I guess I was trying to adapt to this new place and I almost lost the interest at first. Especially because you is also a little bit harder for me to access information about Japan when my Japanese wasn't isn't perfect or right, it was even worse when I first moved. So I kind of almost lost that interest for a while. And then quarantine kind of, yes, COVID. And I have a lot more time on my hands because the school I was attending at the time moved to online. And I was like, Okay, this is the time to start doing something. So that's when I first started putting my thoughts down, like on paper, thinking about what I wanted to do, talking with my Crimson extracurricular advisor is about possibilities and what I can pursue. And that's what I officially started that officially decided that starting a blog was something I was interested in. But at that time, my plan was to just start this blog for myself. So just for to just be me sharing the issues of sexism in Japan to the world. And that was my plan. So I kept that plan for a good two months or so, or a little bit longer than I actually say. And I was writing these articles. And the reason why I decided on a blog was because we'll a never been like the best writer ever, like writing has never been my favorite thing, especially with English being my second language. I just wasn't super confident in my writing, along with the fact that I mean, again, like, again, I was a math person, I didn't put a lot of effort into English for a long time. So I wanted to challenge myself. And that was one of the reasons why I decided on a blog, and another was, I wanted to, like do a translation between Japanese and English. And then several months forward, it's around May, and I decided to roll into Crimson gold Academy branch is an online school. And there were like multiple reasons contributing to that decision from like, a purely academic standpoint, along with wanting to attend school, where I could do a lot of like new extracurriculars, because I knew as new and yeah, so I decided to attend Crimson Global Academy. And honestly, I first with a lot, a lot of worries, because I don't know, I mean, online school kind of has a reputation for not being very social, and for it to be a place for a place for like anti social people to go, that kind of reputation. So I was a little bit worried at first, but I make that decision. And I immediately I'm impressed by the global community, because there are so many people from different parts of the world. And from there, I was like, wow, this seems like a great opportunity for me to do something that's global. And at that time, I hadn't published my blog yet, because I wanted to get certain a lot of articles like we're in before I officially start. So nothing's been set up yet. So I was like, What if I like combine the school community along with this blog idea that I already had? And so I was unsure whether it's a good idea. So first started off by going on Slack. And I'm Slack leader. So I tried to be as active as like, as much as possible. Yeah, it sounds like okay, I'm just gonna post this on extracurricular section of slack. And yeah, I sent the entire school of message regarding my extra curricular project and asked like, are, is anyone interested? And I got replies from like many girls from around the world that were students of CGA. And so I was like, Okay, then, if I have interest, and this is definitely a good idea. And the fact that there are so many girls who messaged me was one of the things that really boosted my confidence in this project, because I didn't receive that sort of feedback when I was in this Japanese school, because there were a lot of people interested. So for me to get like replies from ambitious girls from different places where I was really excited. From there. It's been like quite a bit like a team project, like asking, like, what kind of things do you guys want to do? And last month or so we officially started the first article and our 10th article got uploaded this Wednesday. Podcast Host 19:07 That's awesome. And so how many people do you have, I guess, on staff with the SheQuality blog now. Yuko 19:13 So currently, we are a group of seven. And right now I'm talking to potential or almost at eighth member. Podcast Host 19:21 Were you surprised by the interest in terms of like you were dealing with it in Japan and I guess you had that experience. Were you surprised that other girls from around the world, we're also identifying with those issues in my care? Yeah, I'd like to join this too, because it's not just you, I see this happening where I am as well. Yuko 19:40 So I guess, with those girls, I mean, they share similar concerns that I had when I was in states. Those are the kind of articles that they're writing and they're very much so like, there's so many issues relating to feminism that are very present in even the most progressive countries. In a world that a lot of them not being so much about laws, but about the way like society treats women and things like that. So that was kind of where I saw the interest from those girls coming from. But there's one of the members, she's from Costa Rica. And when we first started talking, and she expressed interest, she told me about some issues from Costa Rica, it's very different from the issues in Japan, or even in the United States, like, it's just it was very different. Like it was more like about issues regarding like, gender based violence, for example. So I think talking to her was when I was like, yeah, this is a project that has a lot of potential in the sense that it really just proves how different sexism is around the world, and the different issues that women face. And all of them are big issues that need to be addressed. But it's important to realize the differences I felt like... Podcast Host 20:56 it's like the education process and the acknowledgement of the different experiences around the world. That is like the first step towards solving some problems. Right? Yuko 21:05 Yeah. Podcast Host 21:06 It's interesting to look at what is the intention of the blog? Like, is there a stated purpose or a mission statement that brings everyone together? I mean, obviously, like the title of the blog, is SheQuality? So if you want to look it up SheQuality? We'll put it in the show notes. By the way, I'll put the link to the blog in the show notes. But yeah, was there any kind of binding statement that you would say to the girls, hey, this is what it's about, this is the kind of purpose that we're going to be writing towards. Yuko 21:32 So when I think about the purpose, I like to think that there's two main aspects to it. So the first one's a little bit more obvious in the sense that it's about finding an audience that reads the articles and potentially finds interest in an issue that they read about or realizes the differences in the world and tries to think about what feminism really is, because it's so different, depending on the country you're in. The other aspect that I think is equally as important was actually about the girls who contribute to it. So my favorite part about the project actually hasn't really been the whole writing and publishing part. But the community in general, we're currently mainly communicating on a Slack channel and on there, we don't only talk about the articles that we're thinking about publishing, or the possible ideas on SheQuality as a project, we also talk about the issues and on the Slack channel. And a lot of times we'll have deep like questions posted up, and then we'll talk about it, we'll have a discussion. So this group of girls that first started off as just being like team members for a project of saying we're more of a small, tiny, small community, now we're talking about these issues. And I think that's one of the missions of SheQuality. And I would love to get more members involved in the future, so that we can have these more personal conversations, aside from the writing and publishing. Podcast Host 22:53 I really like that aspect that almost like you had the intention of writing the blog, and it was mainly based on your experiences in Japan. And then because other girls from around the world joined as well, it felt like it changed the kind of flavor or the stated purpose of the blog a little bit to instead of just focusing on the sexism in Japan, it became like, let's compare or let's educate each other about issues where we are and how they differ. And how the same around the world. So it's kind of like that shared experience in which social injustice occurs or social justice, I guess. So it's like the global community. I think that's such an important thing, right? Because a lot of students when they're at a particular school, they often find it difficult to get outside of the school bubble, right? It's like, whoever's in a 10 kilometer or 15 kilometer radius of the school is who's going to be there in the classroom with you. And so the experiences that you're drawing from are quite limited, but as a result of having girls from New Zealand and Australia, in Costa Rica, etc. It really expands the possibilities with something like this. Is that something that has really enriched the project for you? Yuko 24:06 Yeah, I would actually compare the process of me changing, I guess, the mission of the project from being like an individual one about Japan to a global one, to the situation I was talking about earlier with the club and being like, okay, with the GSA and being like, okay, we need to do something. I just felt like I joined CGA I had to question. First of all, I mean, this seems kind of ridiculous, but it's like, I feel like when we're living we almost like forget about the fact that this is a world in a sense, like, it feels like my world is not even Japan but like the school that I go to my world is the home that I'm in and that's all it is. But going to CGA I was like, it becomes obvious that it is an entire world. And so I guess that was when I was like, okay, am I really doing this project for just for myself, or am I trying to do something with it? Am I just doing it for fun and it feels like to me the world is just Japan, the country that I'm from and that I'm living in and San Francisco and Hawaii, two other states that I've lived in. And so I almost felt like it was almost becoming like a personal project I was just doing for fun. And I was like, okay, but that wasn't what I originally wanted to do. Like, I want to do something. I want to do something with it. Right? Yeah. So I was like, okay, like, we need to start doing something. And that's when I just Slacked everyone Podcast Host 25:29 You're so right as well, like, it's, it's that whole idea that, you know, some people just don't look up at the sky enough and don't realize how big the world is, right. And I think that's what a lot of people live day to day, because they're just going to school going home. Well, I mean, in COVID times, you might just be going to your desk, across your room and going back to your bed. But essentially, like, it's, it's amazing how some people's worlds during, I guess this COVID situation has shrunk so considerably, you know, some people would have had travel plans, and, you know, going out to friends, places or the rest of it. But because of COVID everyone had to stay indoors a lot of the time. Whereas it sounds like for your experience, you know, joining something like CGA an Online High School, and then from that decision, your world expanded dramatically. And now you got all this like shared experience with these girls around the world? I think so awesome. So I think that's a really cool benefit that I think you probably wouldn't necessarily know from joining an online high school right that you're like, oh part of a global community worldviews that type of thing. How important is young women's voices in the conversation around sexism and gender inequality and social injustice? Because I know there's a lot of people out there a lot of students out there who might say, I would love to contribute. And I've got something to say on this topic. But I feel like it's already been said by someone else, you know, might be said by some politician or could have been said by some activist who's a couple years older, or a couple years younger, or someone else on the other side of the world. But how important do you feel it is for every person to have their authentic voice heard, particularly when they're like 14 15-16 year old women? Yuko 27:09 I think it's very important. And I think no matter what your ages, or rather how many times a topic has been talked about, I think it's important to really think about your opinions and share them, even if it's it feels repetitive. And I think there's so many like aspects and like so many flavors to an issue that are not even sure if you can fully repeat something that's already been done. So I think I think an easy example of this is like abortion, for instance, right? I mean, it's easy to say I support or don't support abortion, but there's so many aspects to it, like so many laws regarding it, right? Like which cases do you like which trimester like there's so many little aspects to it and the flavor of it. Like, there's so many issues regarding even like, one topic and even a simple topic like, or a seemingly simple topic like abortion. So I think it's almost impossible to repeat someone else's work. Yep. And that even if you are if you're amplifying the voice that you believe in, and I think only and sharing it can be really deeply Think about your opinions, like a lot of times once you write it down, or once you say it out loud, you have kind of like process it again. So you're almost reconsidering your opinions. And I think that's another really important aspect of supporting the issues a sport. Podcast Host 28:20 Where do you see SheQuality going in the next couple of weeks and months? I how, how you sharing it, how you acquiring new Raiders, and how you getting the resource out there to students, I'm going to guess is the main target audience or anybody? Yuko 28:34 Yep. So as of now, students are definitely the main target audience, right, like by young people, for young people, that sort of thing. And our original goal was 10 articles. And we just reached that goal this week. So right now, I'm talking to an artist from CGA about potentially sharing this on Instagram, through her art, that sort of thing. Because like through those 10 articles, I feel like every member was able to get a feel for what it's about and how it's gonna go from here. Podcast Host 29:03 How is this project open doors for you? Has it connected you to a wider community, not just within Crimson Global Academy, but beyond that to other young women who are passionate, not just young women, but young men, gender non binary people who are passionate about social justice issues? Because when you start a blog, I know you're pretty early on in the process 10 articles in. Yuko 29:26 Yeah, I have actually been connected to other people by starting this. And that's, I think that's one of the direct ways that I've been connected. But another thing is like, an example of this was I was volunteering at this One Young World caucus event in Tokyo last month, and what I was there, people were asking me, like, what kind of things are you interested in? Right? Because I was the youngest volunteer there, I think. Yeah. And so when people ask if they'd be like, Oh, yeah, I'm interested in like feminism. For instance, I'm doing this with like a global group of girls. And automatically that you know, that raises Because it's kind of new to be able to do that with your school. And it's something that can only be done when you're in a global Online High School. So I think it has opened doors for me. And I'm hoping that it will help open more doors in future. Podcast Host 30:14 Do you have anybody in mind like any young people or adults in mind who say, Yeah, they're doing really cool stuff. And I'd love to connect with them, I see them as being a role model for what SheQuality is trying to achieve. Yuko 30:27 So I think on the more personal and I would say, that English teacher that I talked about earlier with GSA, she was the person that kind of helped me find my interest. And on a less personal level of like, who I look up to have, say, a robot, for me has to be Rebecca Solnit. So she's an author of like, multiple books, and one of her books called 'Men Explain Things to Me'. I have like a whole set of books somewhere around here, right? Yeah, it's called men explain things to me. And that was the book that really caught my attention in terms of gender based violence. So when I was younger, and I was in middle school, and I was doing speech about gender based violence, and her book very much was the basis for my speech. So to say that her work definitely interests me, she has a lot of books, and I enjoy all of those greatly. Podcast Host 31:15 One thing that I want to look at as well is how important is it for students to get outside of their bubble and absorb the news of the day? You know, you mentioned the wedding cake incident that happened in the US in 2016. I think it was here 15-16. Yep. And I think a lot of people focus on school. Like, it's interesting that you were like a math student. And I'm going to guess you're pretty committed to what's happening at school, and you're going home doing your study. And that was like your main focus. And I guess there's some things that happened that catch your attention, and you're like, well, geez, I wonder what else is out there. And then you start looking at more news is something that I think the majority of the students that I'm interviewing on top of the class that they have in common? Is the interest in what's going on in the world around them? Is that like, one of the major benefits of being involved in shape, quality and leading SheQuality is that it kind of drives you to continue to engage with the world around you. Even if it's tough conversations, right? I think some people kind of be like, Ah, look, I don't want to deal with it. I'm just going to ignore it. I've got other things to worry about. But like, because you're one of the riders that SheQuality, I guess you probably always looking at what's happening in the world around you, and what kind of news stories are coming out? Yuko 32:26 So I think, with SheQuality, absolutely. Like, I need to be on top of like, what I'm reading, so that I'm not like sharing old things, and things that kind of changed. And I'm always exploring so I can, I'm confident in what I'm writing. And like, I know, I've put in the thought to the issue that I need to put into it. Because I think you know what cakeshop thing like if I only spent like a day thinking about it, I think I would have come down to a very conclusion that I eventually came down to after like, multiple weeks to be completely honest of thinking. Yeah, I actually always like every breakfast, I go on Hulu and I watch American or like British news. Um, so Podcast Host 33:03 I was going to ask like, what kind of resources do you tend to get your news from? Because I think a lot of people struggle to find reliable news sources, or they struggle to find different voices. So what would be your recommendations to help students widen their horizons in terms of news and resources? Yuko 33:23 So during those breakfasts when I just like turn on, I just got my iPad, and I watched the news. The only option for me is BBC and CNN just because that's the only things on Hulu. So I usually end up watching BBC. And then with when I'm just like, searching from like my computer, I would say my favorite source has to be Reuters. I just feel like from what I've seen it from what I fact check Podcast Host 33:44 right is is just like a Newswire, it's kind of like should be fairly unbiased. And yeah, no opinion, no fluff. It's just what happened, right? That's like the idea of Reuters. Yuko 33:53 So I enjoy borders the most also, like, ask people about what they think and like having those conversations so I can really understand what I'm thinking myself. Podcast Host 34:05 How do you stay in control with your emotions when you're talking to someone who is diametrically opposed to your views around a particular issue? And is perhaps not the most eloquent in voicing those opinions? And is perhaps a little aggressive to the way you think, right? I mean, this is like a global issue at the moment. I'm putting it in your hands as the in one of the riders of equality. Do you have any advice for people who are encountering that? Potentially? Yuko 34:34 Yeah, so there was a person in my class who was quite they're quite politically right. Oh, yes. And so one of the things that came down to it was when we had a discussion about the masterpiece cake shop thing, they started claiming that being gay was a choice. And that was one of the most you know, it's obviously like, kind of like upsetting comment, but from there started being like, Oh, I don't believe in like same sex marriage because Like, I believe that gay people have the right to marry, but they only have the right to marry the opposite sex was I believe what was said, like, Okay, everyone has equal rights because everyone has the right to marry the opposite sex was the argument that was made. Being a San Francisco it. I've never encountered that sort of opinion before. Along with being in Japan. I've also not encountered with that because people in Japan just don't care that much. But it's not like they have an opinion, that cream. So I think at first I was like, Whoa, like, it was just like shocking or like, wow, because it was seemed like crazy to me. Like, this is the kind of thing that I seem like comics, not like in person. So I was like, wow. And I mean, I think honestly, I think it helps that girl on zoom, I feel like if it was in person, I may have raised my voice a little bit more. Whereas on zoom, I just don't really have the option to you. And I didn't have that urge as much. So I tried to keep the conversation as logical and related to the course as much as possible. So instead of being like, Whoa, like what the hell like I talked about one of the things that question was like, because they were coming from religious point of view, I was like, Okay, let's look at the first amendment. And because that was what the course was on, yes, we kind of talked about like, okay, because freedom of religion applies, it should apply to like, all religions, like, why is it that this particular religion at your part, like takes precedence like, kind of try to stick to the topic as much as possible? I think that's one of the main things is try to stick to where the conversation started. And also, honestly, I don't like saying this, I was opposing this, like, I was strongly opposing this kind of belief, like, long, like a year ago, honestly. But I've learned to just walk away. At some points, I genuinely think that there are certain people, especially when it comes to a belief like homophobia, that you're not going to change their minds, they've honestly probably had multiple people, like tons of people try to change their minds, and they haven't changed their minds, and you're not going to be this new person that walks in and change their minds. So I think for your own sanity, walking away is often Yeah, a good option. And, frankly, because staying doesn't really achieve anything. Podcast Host 37:11 Yeah, I completely agree. I think some people get so caught up in the argument. And so get caught up in the fury of it all and the emotion of it all that they can't leave without getting that person to agree with a point of view. And it turns into this, like unproductive conversation that goes round and round and round in circles. And people get pushed, I think in after a while, they get pushed in further into their respective corners, right, like they already better come to the middle and have a compromise, they get pushed further and further apart. So you know, that's good advice, with joining SheQuality getting involved. How can students do that? Yuko 37:48 So if you go on the website, there's an email address. So if you email that address about any interest, I will respond. Podcast Host 37:56 Awesome, awesome. And hear directly from you. Yep. Right. And they should expect to be an author potentially, if they're wanting to join equality. Yuko 38:05 Yes, absolutely. So we're looking for artists, or even if you don't have an interest in writing, or are, but you want to be involved, please just email me and I will get back to you on any potential roles that you can take within it, or even like joining the slack community, just to have these discussions is always an option. Podcast Host 38:24 And what would be your final advice for students who haven't strong opinions who want to get their voice out there, but might not think that the world wants to hear from them? Right? or might not think that they've got a voice in world full of blogs, and tic tocs in YouTube channel, etc? Like, what advice would you give to students in in that kind of thinking? Yuko 38:46 Right? So I think first of all, when I started this project, my goal wasn't to have like, tons of people reading it, like, I'm not super obsessed with having like, so like many people read it more. So even if it's like three people who like read it, and kind of can take something away from it. I think that was worth something. And like I mentioned before, with any project, I think a lot of times it's not about who's reading or who's looking at the content, it's about the process and people who talk to you while creating that content. So even if your opinion doesn't reach like many, many people, I think it's important to think about those few people that it did reach and also what you were able to do during the process of creating that content, whether it's a blog article, or a YouTube channel or whatever, like, who does you talk to, because I've personally taken a lot away from talking with my group, my group in SheQuality and also reading articles that my teammates, right, so I think, you know, I think the fact that I read those articles is I'm taking something away from it. Podcast Host 39:50 Yeah. Yuko 39:50 So yeah, so even if it's not like 10s of 1000s of people reading it, I think it's always important to think about the people that you can impact and also the experience gain in the process. Because I think once you gain that experience, and it opens opportunities to grow, and also to have an impact, and even if like the project ends and never route to like large point, I still think that it adds something to what you did, and it can connect to the next opportunity out there. Podcast Host 40:21 Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the impact that it has on you. And it's like your personal growth. You know, what, my gosh, this brings back memories for me because I started a blog, and I stopped it because I didn't say many people reading it. I think I was just sharing it through Facebook at the time. This is pre their Instagrams and all the rest of it. So we're really going back here, but yeah, I mean, that's it. That's it. I just hadn't even thought of that, like that concept that I'm not writing it to get 1000s of followers, because I think a lot of people look at that and say, if I'm going to enter into the social media world, if I'm going to put my voice out there, I'll be embarrassed if only two or three people read it. But in reality, it's just like you're doing it half of yourself. And yeah, half of those couple of people who read it, and if it profoundly affects them, or even if it has just a small impact on them. That's a win. And even if no one reads it, right, even if you get something out of it, that's still a win. All right. So I think it's like don't judge the success of a blog by how many readers or followers you have just just success of the blog and how it makes you feel. I might even start writing my blog again. Yeah, I thought about it that way. It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, I should have but I'm really glad you brought that back. Thank you for coming on to the show and giving your time I think SheQuality is awesome. Yuko 41:35 Thank you so much for your time today and for having me have such a great time talking to you. Podcast Host 41:39 My pleasure, Yuko. Yuko 41:40 Okay, thank you.

Ep #17 Starting an App Development Company in High School

🗓 DEC 9, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork and in this episode, I chat with 15 year old app developer and co founder of AppSydney. Nicholas, Mihailou. We chat about how we learn to code, the experience of creating his first app, and how he goes about getting new clients while managing life at school. Let's chat with Nick Mihailou. Nick, it's fantastic to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself? Nick M 00:44 Hey, guys, so my name is Nicholas Mihailou. I'm a 15 year old app developer and entrepreneur from Sydney. I think my whole story starts when I was about 10 years old, I started learning how to code on YouTube and that kind of thing. Eventually built up my skills, I'm starting to develop games, got a bit of traction there, and then Apple kind of so much stuff. And now with me and my friends, we run a custom app development company. And we're really enjoying that while hustling at school and really taking a key focus in that. So I think that's kind of everything. Podcast Host 01:17 So a lot of stuff going on at a young age of 15. So that puts you in your nine or your 10. Where does the nine Yeah, your nine. Okay, good stuff. When people ask you who you are, are you a student first or an app developer first or an entrepreneur? What do you see yourself as? Nick M 01:34 I would see myself first as an entrepreneur, and then a student, I think, to the core, I love business, and then academics as well. And I think app development is just one of those things. So I'm interested in a lot of different types of business. So I just think that's the kind of industry I'm in should, say, entrepreneur, then student. Podcast Host 01:52 So how does an entrepreneur spend their time after school? Nick M 01:55 Yeah, so usually come home, and firstly, focus on my homework, but then spend the rest of the night back and forth with emails, hustling, and LinkedIn, as you said, before, email marketing, that kind of thing, and actually working with my team and developing whatever projects we're working on. So it's very, it's very time consuming. And I do need to usually talk to my parents and discuss how I'm going to manage my week or my day, it's definitely hard, but I think a lot of kids can do it if they really want to. Podcast Host 02:24 So where does your entrepreneurial streak come from? Is it something that your parents encouraged you to do? Is that something that you saw through school? What makes someone who's in the early years of high school suddenly say, Yep, entrepreneurship is for me? Nick M 02:37 Well, I think it all started, when I was in year six with me, and one of my good mates to heal, we decided to start a bit of a coding club at our school. And I think before that I was interested in, for example, the stock market, or that kind of thing, tech companies was always a big interest for me. It wasn't really spearheaded by anyone else besides myself, and maybe some of my friends. But as I went along, other people did help me. But I think I was just naturally interested in business and in how tech companies ran, I have a really key interest in that in that kind of field. What Podcast Host 03:10 are the companies that you look at right now is the beacon of light for you, the ones that you aspire to work for, perhaps are the ones that you aspire to create perhaps your own. Nick M 03:19 We are obviously Apple, since we have a really good connection with them. I did personally on Apple is my favorite tech company. But besides that, I think companies who are working in, you know, development or in financial in the financial kind of space, you know, Robin Hood is a great example. They do commission free stock trading. I think that's really cool. Besides that, Amazon is an obvious one, Microsoft, you know, just the big one to you know, how to really strong roots in development and just built it up to a huge kind of state. I think that's really inspiring. I'm also inspired by Crimson Education, to be completely honest, I think what Jamie and you guys have done is really is really impressive, especially at such a young age as well. Podcast Host 04:01 Well, I'm sure Jamie would appreciate that. And I know cruising has gone, you know, great way in the last X number of years now seven years or thereabouts. I think we've been around so a great education company to be a part of, but yeah, do you read the stories or autobiographies of these? You know, the founders and the history of these companies? Like how in depth do you go? When you say, Yeah, I like, you know, what Robin Hood does or I like what Apple does? 04:26 Yeah, with Apple as an example, when I was about nine, eight or nine, I read the Steve Jobs biography. at a really young age, it was a really big book, but I kind of fell in love with that kind of aspect. And whenever I set my mind on an idol, someone who I aspire to be like or learn from, I really go deep. I watch as many videos as I can. I usually buy that books and kind of read about them a lot. And I'm a big fan of really going deep and whenever you're doing is making sure that you've done enough research and you know really learnt the mindset of those people, for example, how their companies run stuff like that, that's in my personal opinion really important. If you're going to pick someone to idolize, or someone to our company, for example, that you really want to aspire to be like. Podcast Host 05:10 So talk me through when you started creating your first team. And then you're doing coding. So like, this is all fairly new to I'm sure, most students, what does that look like when you're talking to your mates and saying, hey, look, do you want to start a coding camp or coding club, and I want to start a team, and you're going to be on my team, like almost starting like a mini business. And now you actually do have your own business? So what was that? Like? What was that conversation? Like when you were How old? Nick M 05:39 Are 12? Or 13? I'd say 12. Podcast Host 05:42 Yeah. Okay, so you're 12 years old? What does that conversation look like when you're talking to your mates about starting a team and building something, and not just going to a footy training or something? 05:51 Yeah, exactly. So me and two other mates, we had the conversation that wanted to make games. So I think games came first for us wanting to make games, but we also wanted to make money from it, I'm not gonna lie. That was that was a big driver for us, we wanted to make a bit of extra side money. Um, so during those years of you six, and seven, spent a lot of time talking to each other about it, trying to find other school mates to help us with it. And also just making a lot of games that weren't successful. I mean, we had nine fell apps that just didn't come out or got rejected from the App Store. So I think main causation for that was that all three of us had a key interest in it. A few other people came and left in the team. But in terms of game development, we we had a very key interest in technology. We were very business minded. And I think with the current people that we have, you know, my best major heel, could we do, you know, the apps with, we're both very similarly minded about how we run the business and our passion for it, and the kind of angle that we aspire to have. Podcast Host 06:53 Okay, so even though you're only 12, or 13, at the time, it didn't seem like a goal that was a bit far fetched or anything, it felt pretty achievable when you were going out and saying, Hey, guys, like, let's create some games on the App Store. And let's make some money from this. Did that seem believable to you? At the time? 07:10 I think it seemed believable. Before we had our first failure. I think we we were kind of blissfully ignorant as you can put it, that we thought that if you just made a game, we put ourselves really high, we try to make a big RPG type game, a desktop game. Yeah. And then we start doing it. And it just didn't work. You know. I mean, we made it but it was terrible, right? So we had to change our sights from there. And we came very realistic about how hard it was to make an app and then make money from it. And we had to learn that whole process. Um, so I think before we we had our first few failures, we thought it would be easy. But then we came through that, and we realize how hard it is. But we've done a good job so far. Podcast Host 07:50 Yeah, so it seems like a baptism by fire type of thing where he got to learn from your failures. Yeah, what encouraged you to keep going even though the first app, or the first game was, as you said, quite the failure? 08:04 Yeah, so we had multiple games that just didn't come through. And we had people, one of our other good mates who wasn't really interested in come High School and wanted to leave us. So it was me and Jay Hill left to just keep going. And we had the conversation about always pivoting or just quitting in general. But I think it's hard when it's something that you want that badly to, for example, to have our first game on the App Store, that was something along along go for us. And I feel like when you're that passionate about something, there's nothing, nothing's really going to stop you there. And I feel like that's kind of where we came from. Because we've had, for example, just in terms of business, we've had nine failed apps that either didn't go through or just weren't good enough. We've had, for example, clients who lied to us, we've been cheated out of things. But I would say we never really took it personally. And we always just kept going. And I think that's a really important, you know, feature to have, if you want to be successful in school. Or if you just want to have a successful business, I think that's a really key thing to have. Podcast Host 09:03 Absolutely. And talk me through I guess that client side of things. 09:07 Yes, I think our approach since we started a new company app, Sydney, where we do development for, you know, big companies, small companies, is that we kind of wanted to position ourselves as having gotten to a point of difference. So we, we were open in saying that we're 15 years old, you know, everyone on the team who was working with us at that time, and we saw that a lot of people were really interested in that kind of part. We're like, that's kind of you don't hear that every day. So they were like 15, we'll have a call. You go on the call. And then they're like, okay, that's pretty cool. And then you get to stuff like price or you know, what we can deliver, and their expectations are really high for something that because we're so young, they don't expect it to be the greatest quality or cost a lot of money. So I think that was something that was hard because we just thought that if we were 15 and young, it was a great story, for example, but a lot of people kind of tried to a lot of people have the perception that we couldn't do it what we were offering or that we were charging too much, for example, for development services. So I think it has been really hard to find people to believe in us. But I think we've gotten through that now. Podcast Host 10:11 Yeah, I guess you start kind of building up a client base, and you've got a portfolio of things you've done before. So people that take you a little bit more seriously, but tough going in those early days of starting app, Sydney, can you talk us through I guess, like the first app that you put onto the App Store, and what that was all about? 10:30 Yes, a puzzle. So the first game that we released onto the App Store, basically, it's a hyper casual mobile game, it was really actually took us three days to make, I mean, that was after years of experience, but it's pretty simple. It's just a puzzle game, basically, a puzzle pieces come down, you have to try to strike them to get more points, right. So the premise was simple, the plan was that we'd make it quickly. And our plan at that point was that we knew that meant spending a lot of time making games that like percentage wise probably would fail without the right thing. So we spent, we focused on quantity of quality at that point, but we still tried to make the best game. So we made like seven games in rapid succession of just really simple because you see on the app store a lot of really easy games that are really, you know, simple mechanics, that kind of thing. Yep. Um, and we, we researched different coding languages. And we decided, for example, on unity, which is a great game engine, and are the coding language C sharp, which we thought would be really efficient for that kind of thing. So with puzzle dash, it took us roughly three hours to make a siphon with the business side of things. And we decided that we would, you know, use ads to make money from that. So we released it and kind of told Apple, what we were about, you know, our age and things like that. And, I mean, when we released the app, it did take a while, but it kind of did take off a bit, but a lot of downloads in the wall of different places that we didn't expect. So I think that kind of opened our eyes in terms of what was possible, just through the internet. And like what you can do at any age, Podcast Host 11:58 talk me through the learning process of something like C sharp and unity. Is that something that you think anyone can learn? Or is it best to have a background in, say maths, or physics? Or, you know, what kind of skills do you think makes someone able to learn something like that on their own? 12:16 Yeah, so I obviously learned to that quite a young age, me and my friends who pursued the business, I don't think you need a background in mathematics for that. But I think when you're getting into, for example, we do AI development where we're personally into artificial intelligence, stuff like that, you I think it would be best to have an interest or a background in math in physics, to really understand the theory. Because if you think of coding as a language, like French or Italian, there's a lot of you know, key rules about that. But you also need to, there needs to be a background theory into those kind of things. And with coding, it's no different knowing mathematics will help you or having an interest in that. But I don't think it's completely necessary for if you want to make a game, it's not necessary. Podcast Host 12:59 What was your go to learning resource? Like you you said, You learned on YouTube primarily? Was there one particular channel that you found extremely helpful? Or one particular resource? Yeah, what was that? 13:10 Yeah, um, a channel called Rockies, they focused on C sharp development in gaming, we actually chatted to them a bit about ourselves and that kind of thing. Um, but there are a lot of good ones about, you know, swift development, which is more like iPhone kind of development, a lot of good ones out there. And I think on that kind of topic, I feel like YouTube is probably the best tool to use. I don't think it is required to spend all this money on the course or go to a camp or for example, I think, if you really want to do it, YouTube is a great source. Podcast Host 13:41 Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of things people can learn on YouTube about knowing the right channels, I think sometimes otherwise, it's about 13:46 knowing it's about knowing what you're looking for, and really cross referencing and making sure that what you're doing is right. Podcast Host 13:53 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Now, on a scale of one to 10, for instance, how difficult was it in comparison to what you were learning at school? Was this like your main academic intellectual challenge? Or was school still The difficult thing and this is what you just did in your downtime. 14:10 I feel like throwing yourself into business and learning how to code at the same time, in terms of an intellectual struggle that was very difficult to overcome, because, for example, I've learned many different languages where you can look at flutter x code, Swift, C sharp, and different JavaScript Python. So and those are all very different and but I learnt them through just kind of passion and just knowing that I needed to learn them to the business, for example, but I think was school it has been, you know, wrapping up in my school, for example, they have a great you know, system of really pushing kids who have a keen interest in that kind of thing. And just maths and English in general. I would say bit learning coding has been a bit harder than academics so far, but I feel like it will only get harder to school. Podcast Host 14:55 Take me through the business side of it, and how much you learn. about running a business from doing this because the app side of things is a great skill set. And being able to create an app is one side. But then there's like the business thing, you know, filling in invoices, creating like a pricing structure, advertising all the rest of it. How much of that did you have to kind of learn as you go? 15:19 So I think it's been pretty hard. And I've had to learn through experience, like, for example, my parents love them to death, but they have any kind of business experience, you know, they helped me with, you know, just the emotional side of things. But I would say it's been hard just when you're thinking about pricing, for example, I think that's a big thing that kind of had me in the early days, is that you never really know what these people are going to think. Because, you know, it's so funny games when you talk about, you know, young person making an app or service. But when you come to price, that's where, you know, it becomes very serious. And then, you know, being rejected time and time again, it can have an emotional effect on people. And it did have an effect on me personally, because you, you question yourself, and you say, oh, why isn't this working, for example, and then just managing the business, emailing people and being on top of that, because we've gone to client meetings where we have school the next day assessments for the whole week, and they say, We need you 24? Seven, to make sure that this for example, this app is running, right? Yeah. And what do we say to that? What do we say, we can't do that? Because we have school will then they'll go to a different company, although it's distinct that we don't have the skill set. So I think it's been very hard. But I think once you do it for so long, and once you get someone who will pay you or will believe in you, I think that it confidence will boost up in that kind of sense. So I think it has been hard, but I've learned from it. What was that feeling? Podcast Host 16:39 Like when someone said, 'Yep, I'm going to be keen to have my app developed by AppSydney.' 16:45 Yeah, so first client, not sure if we can then overly talk to him about it. But yes, so basically, this person, this company, they did want like a podcast website done. And for us, it was our first client. So we didn't really know what to do. We had a zoom call, talk to them about what the project was, we had that kind of sense of imposter syndrome, where we didn't really believe that, that we deserved to be that because it was Fs, well, obviously, we made everything on the spot on the fly, we were just running with it. And then we sent out our first invoice our deposit, after they agreed on it for a few days, didn't respond, we we got very nervous about it, we were like what do we do, send your follow up email, they pay at the same day. And, and the feeling of you know, first getting that deposit, it was very small. But that kind of propelled the passion. And just the the idea that we could pursue it to a third degree, I think it was a very it was it was challenging with the first client because we had to do so many things that we didn't expect, we would have to do, for example, invoicing emails, you know, and we didn't expect the revisions. For example, if the person didn't like the design of the website, or the app, in our case website, and we had to fix it up and spend a lot of time on that. And we didn't really affect that in. So I think that kind of taught us a lot about what we would do for the next client and next client. And we've met a system so much more efficient, but I think ever needs to go through that kind of period of not really knowing what you're doing. But just going ahead and try it. I think it's very important. Podcast Host 18:17 How do you hide that, I guess, from your clients? How do you hide that sense that you don't really know what you're doing when you're in the early days of a company, because I think no matter what age you are, whether you're 14 or whether you're 40, if you're starting a company, and you're doing it for the very first time, there's going to be a fair degree of I don't really know what I'm doing, especially for those first couple of clients. But how did I guess you keep that confidence up through the pitching process until you actually, you know, received the invoice got a contract signed and went through all that side of things? 18:49 Yeah, one of my biggest inspirations is Atlassian. And the people there Mike cannon Brooks and Scott Farquhar, they talk about that, as well as that they, when they started out, they didn't really know exactly what to do, or the lingo about business. I think, because we had such a deep experience in coding for ourselves, we kind of understood the development side of things, for example, but I think in terms of the business things I talk to, for example, my uncle, my parents about it, to see what they thought. And we kind of made up a kind of a body of directors in that kind of sense of people that we that we knew. And even if they weren't in terms of if they weren't in business, they still knew how people react to certain things. So I think you need to definitely talk to people, I think, talk to people. I think also, just if you go into a business, for example that you don't know too much about, there's a solution to that. And that is, you know, learning more about it. For us, we were pretty confident in what we could do because we made so many apps and websites before and with the business side of things. I think we also had the belief that we could do it. And I think that's really important and also backing that up with research and making sure that everything's right. Podcast Host 19:58 Yeah, certainly takes a bit of time. To put that kind of marketing material and collateral together, and to make sure that you're communicating that throughout the entire process, how have you been advertising? 20:09 We've done a lot of email strategies. And I think a big thing has been referrals for us is that when you do good work for someone that balance and tell someone else, and I think, I think being a student is a great asset, because it's such a unique story to be so young to do something, and think it's a really good asset to have, rather than people think that might be a liability. So I think having that whole story is really good. And I think, you know, just talking to people in real life about that, because over email, it's easy to ignore people, for example, but I think if you're starting a business, I think you just talk to your family, your friends, are people that you may know that you may not know, mutual people, I think that's a great way to start. But I think from that you need to automate your systems, I think you need to, you know, look at lead generation marketing strategies. You know, LinkedIn is a great tool, as you said, before we met on there. But as you keep going, for example, we've made projects, pretty big organizations, I think that kind of naturally occurs where, for example, they might want to talk about it on their podcast, or on their, you know, newspaper or media form that they have. I think it can really snowball and that effect, but you need to make sure that the work is really good. Podcast Host 21:18 The companies, I guess, might use it as a bit of a marketing tool for themselves to be able to say, hey, look at us, we took a chance on some 15 year olds, we brave and bold, don't we see the future of kids? That kind of stuff? Right? Yeah, Nick M 21:30 That's been a big thing. Podcast Host 21:33 Yeah. It's interesting to kind of look at it from that angle. And I think there's some students who would probably be quite talented coders, who are sitting at home thinking, well, this is quite interesting to hear how you kind of handled that student side of things and the age side of things. And whether you saw that as a barrier to success, or whether you saw it as helping towards your success. But I'm sure there's as equally as there's fans of us, who would be like, Oh, he's 15. And doing amazing things. There would be other people as well, who would say 15 year old No way, I'm never going to hire a 15 year old to do a website or an app. 22:07 Yeah, we've definitely encountered those types of people. I think, in terms of that kind of dynamic, where we're so young, I do think it's quite warranted to believe that we couldn't do it. But I think just in terms of the population of people at my age who can do it, I think it's quite unfair to just put that stereotype on them that they're doing nothing other than gaming, or, you know, not not really focusing on the project, I don't understand where they're coming from in that kind of sense. But I do believe that you just need to make sure it's the right person for the job or whatever service you're providing. I don't think age matters too much in that kind of sense. Podcast Host 22:41 Let's talk a little bit more about your school life. Because I know that's an interest for a lot of students who are like, Oh, well, I want to do well at school, and then think about what's next. But when you're balancing business, and school can be a bit of a challenge. Have you seen the business side of things help what you do at school, like say, for instance, you know, you might be doing economics, or you might be doing some kind of technology class? And obviously, like you're spending a lot of time doing business related things and technology related things outside of the classroom as well. Yeah. What do you see it perhaps getting in the way of some of your major assessments and as you said, You know, sometimes clients once you available for 24, seven, and it's just impossible sometimes to meet those demands. 23:20 I think, generally, I've balanced it pretty well, I think, if you don't, it can definitely detract from your schoolwork. For example, I do commerce at my school. And I think that's really helped out I think, my general interest in that when you go to English and math, I think if you're not focusing on that, as well, in school hours, it can definitely detract. It's a balancing act at that kind of point where you need to make sure that you're really focusing because that's a big thing for me, and my business partners, and everyone on the team whose at school, is that we focus on school at school. And when we're out of school, we do homework, and then additionally, trying to work on the business in the time that we would be spending playing footy or basketball playing the Xbox. Right. So I think that that was a huge a huge thing for that. So I think if you're not careful, it can definitely detract. But I think for us, I think for me, personally, I think it's I don't think it's improved my schoolwork. But I think my school, my level of quality is stayed the same. Podcast Host 24:16 Okay, so you don't think it's really gotten in the way. I mean, I can say you would be taking a bit more of an interest in the commerce side of things where you know, you've got a business, right, because you might be talking about some of the things that you're doing in your day to day business to keep it running. Let's talk a little bit about where you see yourself in the future as well. Whether you see yourself continuing on the AI computer programming side of things, or you want to move into the VC space as well, venture capital, talking about your options there and how I guess a 15 year old comes across I mean, most 15 year olds, you wouldn't even know what VC means of venture capital remains. Yeah. So how you've come across this whole world and where you see yourself fitting in in the future. 24:56 Well, yeah, I mean, as I said to you, that was one of my goals. So Was I've always had a keen interest in the stock market and investments in general, I think that really ties into technology quite well learned about, you know, it's one of the key things for starting a tech startup, having a VC is one of the most important aspects of that someone who can, if you don't know what a VC is, a venture capitalist is someone who kind of funds your idea for a percentage of the project. So say, if it's Mark Zuckerberg pitching Facebook, they put a million dollars in get 5%. And when it becomes a huge company, they make that money back in in droves, 10, X Games, whatever it is. So I think for me, I always really want to stay in the kind of space of technology and kind of pursue my interest in investments. And I feel like I can do that very well, by going into venture capital row, as well as you know, even working at a tech company at the same time or founding one. So I think that's quite natural for me to, to kind of look at that avenue. And I think a good idea. Podcast Host 25:57 Where are the hotspots in the world for venture capital tech startups? I know, obviously, Silicon Valley comes to mind. But are there any others around the world that you could see yourself working in potentially? 26:09 Um, yes, it's Silicon Valley, San Francisco, that's the obvious stereotype of technology stops, but I think we're seeing a huge increase. You know, in Asia, especially China, there's a lot of increase there, you know, London, New York, those are some other stereotypical places. But I think also in Sydney, and Australia, in general, I think, for example, Atlassian is building a huge building here, that's supposed to attract a lot of tech startups, because that can be a working space for them as well. So I feel like as the world globalized isn't everyone becomes more connected in the future, 10 years down the track, I don't think that that will be a specific place to be, I feel like there'll be stops coming from every corner of the world, Israel as well, this love starts coming from there. So I think I think in general, you know, being in Silicon Valley would be a great thing. But I think you could be anywhere in the world and have a great idea and build it up to a big company or invest in a great startup. Podcast Host 27:02 And what kind of doors has this kind of business open for you. 27:06 I've been a part of some great organizations of people for development, for business, and for kind of fun out in the financial space for investments. So I've been a part of, for example, a young people's group of school group of, you know, stock people who are doing pitching that kind of thing, where we have competitions. So that's been one, two, let's open another one has been when I talk to people like adults about my passion for business or app development, for example, the apple trip, I went to Melbourne with my team, and we, you know, met with Apple executives about the app and stuff, that was a great opportunity. And that just came from simply emailing apple. And then for three months, nothing happened. We didn't expect anything to happen. But they had the specific event, and it just fell into place that way. I think in terms of business, there's a lot of great, you know, people and organizations that are really interested in the fact that young people are doing it. So I think I think if anyone's listening to this, I think an important factor of that is going out there. Even if you're introverted or something which I know I am personally, I think just talking to people messaging them, because you don't know that what might happen in that kind of case, you know, people could respond to it love the idea if you're making a business or if it's just your personal brand. So I think it's open to Logar opportunities for myself and for the people around me. And I do feel like a lot of people can replicate it if they have a great idea, or have a really big passion in a field that's growing so rapidly, which is technology in my case, Podcast Host 28:30 yes. So it's like connecting with people around the world. I've seen some great app developers, young and in university and professionals are out there. And it's like a very quickly growing community. And it feels like a pretty I think one of the very unique things about app developing is it feels like a very level playing field in some respects. Like in some industries, experience matters. And if you're not like in your 40s, or 50s, or whatever, like people aren't really going to take you that seriously. Because you're not going to have you know, 20 plus years of experience under your belt. But because, you know, app development and artificial intelligence, etc, is fairly new. And like you've grown up with it. People say like, Oh, well, you know, a 15 year old has just as much chance in many cases as someone who's in their 30s or 40s. In fact, you would probably trust you to create an app more than I would someone who's in their 40s because someone in their 40s hasn't grown up with this technology and has had to kind of learn it from scratch. Do you find that that is a feature as well, about the community you have? It's pretty much like a level playing field and age isn't such a factor. 29:35 I think for sure, I think with the rise of sites such as five.com, or freelancer, you know, that's a big industry of where people who are any age, any ethnicity or whatever it is, and if you can provide the job, people will hire you. And I think that's been a huge factor. I think I've been lucky because in tech, I think there's a good perception around, you know, young people who are into that kind of thing, because we've obviously grown up with it. And I think that's been a great perception. I think If I was going into a different industry, clothing or whatever it is making something else, I think it would be drastically harder to break into that industry and find any type of success. So I think specifically in technology, making apps, you know, developing, having a start off, I think it really does fit with the demographic of people that I mean, you know, young people, 15 year old students, whatever it is, I do think it fits quite well, to your point. Yeah. Podcast Host 30:28 Talk me through what it was like to first set up the business, like that day or that week, and how you felt about it. And when you started kind of pushing it out on socials or whatever you were doing in the early days, what was the general response you got from your mates? 30:45 Yes, I would say that that moment would be when I first released password ash was my first foray into business, even though we kind of developed it before then. So when I released the app, we got, for example, my dad put it on Facebook, and people started talking about it. And then it was when I came to school that people started to download it, and then find that there was issues with the app, for example. So for the first few and say, months, even, but for the first few weeks, I had ever coming up to me having the app in their hands and playing it, finding an issue with it. And then I felt really embarrassed. So I went to quickly fix it. But then as we kind of kept getting traction, and those opportunities came up for me, I think a lot of people got interested. And I think generally just the feeling was we were very, very proud of having the app out there. But we always felt like we could have done better or that we could have fixed something up. If you walk in a class and someone comes up to you and says that you know that the app doesn't work or there's a glitch, you know, you feel very embarrassed about that. That was definitely a struggle for me to deal with, you know, all the people talking about it, and having that as a conversation piece. But I think as as it's kind of gone along, all people have kind of grown in interest into what I'm doing. I think that's been really good. But I think Yeah, just the general emotions were it was quite quite a challenge in the beginning stages. Podcast Host 32:03 Yeah, that sounds crazy. Because it's like putting your work out there for everyone to see. Right. And judge. And people know what, you know, a good game is not like writing an essay where people can have their opinions about an essay, but it's your thoughts and whatnot. But when it comes to a game, and it's a glitch, like it's pretty obvious, right? Like, it's a pretty clear stuff up. So it's about going back and fixing that pretty quickly, I imagine. But yeah, it's pretty brave to kind of put your work out there for anyone and everyone to have a go and and commend you for that. That's awesome. Talk to me about what comes next. After school, you did briefly mentioned that you're interested in overseas universities. But as everybody knows, if you're an entrepreneur, you're in high school, and you already mentioned it as well, there is I guess that other thought bubble, which is what are you doing at school? Why don't you just pursue your business interest? So talk to me, I guess about that internal battle? Yeah, that might be playing internally and with your, you know, friends and family as well as to what you do the end of high school? Well, I 32:58 think in terms of my friends and family, that's been a quite a controversial thing, where my friends at school think I should just drop out and continue it. All my parents are, they think I should obviously get my agency done sad, whatever it is, and go to university, which I completely respect and it but internally, I've kind of set milestones where if I reach a certain point, in kind of clients revenue, I feel like I'll be able to, I would say, decide maybe not to pursue University if I reach those goals, but those are really high goals for myself. So I definitely want to go to university, but I want to find a way to manage my business, because it's something that I am really passionate about as well. Podcast Host 33:36 So if you were to go to university, what would be your mindset, then if like you were to start University next week? Yeah, what would you go there with the intention of doing? 33:45 Well, as I said, my parents sometimes is that a lot of people, you know, that you go to university to learn how to make a business and run it. And I feel like I've already had that experience through doing it at such a young age. So I think in terms of university, I do have some kind of ideas for that, where I do want to pursue a degree that is kind of away from business, but you know, maybe something in like finance or law or just something like that, which kind of interests me, and I think it comes down to which universities I might be able to get into for the kind of networking aspect of the people I can meet, just to interact with different types of people. So I think, I think it's it's a hard thing to take into account. But I think my goal is obviously the to maybe try to go and overseas, you know, American University, European University. And unless I can do that efficiently, and get into a great degree, I might not pursue University here, unless I have a compelling reason to Oh, I you know, my business completely fails and I have nowhere else to go. But I think I'm in a pretty good position where I can kind of choose that route. Podcast Host 34:49 Well, yeah, having worked at Crimson for a couple of years, I've definitely seen some students who were in a similar position to you and had a business when they're in high school, went to university Continued building the business and their network, as a result of studying, you know, a couple of these students actually samil is on one of the episodes that I did. And he's now at Y Combinator, and doing his own business thing there. And another student Brendon, as well, we're going to try and get him on the show eventually. But he's got an app as well that he developed through uni at Harvard. And he's at Y Combinator as well. And so like, that's a great pathway for entrepreneurship. And in terms of like, getting that venture capital to really start your own stores. But it really depends on whether or not you want to, I guess, scale app Sydney into something that is either a big app development platform and automated somehow, who knows what's going to happen? Because right now, it's kind of like one on one client basis, it's very hard to scale. So I guess it would be a little bit of a interesting process to see if you go through uni and have some ideas. But yes, certainly, like, I went to UC Berkeley and a tour. And I was talking to one of the students there. And he said, Every second person here at UC Berkeley is working on an app. It's crazy. He's like, yeah, just the culture of those, like, you know, top universities on the west coast in particular. And obviously, like some of the major ones on the East Coast as well in the US. Like, they're just buzzing with this stem innovation, so could be a really good place to be even if just for a short term, and I pull up Zuckerberg and bail after like a year and a half or so. And, you know, you head off with a couple of good contacts in a way you go. But yeah, is there any final advice that you would give Nick, in terms of, you know, high school students, maybe not necessarily coding related, but who are considering starting their own business? And might be putting it off? Because of whatever kind of doubts they have in their mind? Yeah, advice would you give to them, 36:45 I think my main thing is about failing, but you need to fail forward. What that means is that if you have a business idea, and you want to test the market, for example, you go out and everyone says no, but that you find out why you get that feedback. And you really understand what you what you did wrong, so that you might you maybe continue that business, or you can branch off to a new one, and kind of weigh your options out there. So I think failing forward is really important, I think you need to do a lot of research beforehand. But at the same time, just try to go ahead and get into the business as soon as you possibly can. And that doesn't really mean just have an idea, and just go on YouTube or Instagram and talk about it and say I'm selling something, I think it means making something that's of value. I think the whole point is that if you want a business, you need to make sure that you're solving a real issue. So I think in terms with the emotional aspect of it, you need to kind of identify who you are. So I early on identified that I'm into I'm an introverted type of person that I needed, you know, try to find ways where I could improve that and become more confident, because I think that's really important. Learning how to talk to people is the most important skill more than being booksmart. So I think you need to really quickly understand the type of person that you are, and how that fits in with the business. And I also think that you need to identify who your biggest inspirations are, and try to see what they did wrong, or maybe what they did, right. And kind of take that and, you know, look at what they did, and help your own journey with that information. So I'd say those are the three major things, Podcast Host 38:17 Some good tips there. And if I could add one more, it sounds like it means a lot to you to have a really strong business partner as well, like someone who's kind of stuck through, you know, thick and thin, and has been there for you along kind of the student journey, because you can have parents who support you and teaches you support you. But it must mean a lot more when there's another student who is there on the same journey with you. How important has that been for you? 38:44 I would say that's been the most important factor, having someone who you can always talk to, and when when you fail, you fail together, you talk about it. And it's a great feeling when you have someone that you're on the same page with. I know a lot of people get into a business with a partner for the wrong reasons. And and they kind of don't succeed. But I think in my specific partnership in the success that I would my best major heel, I think the whole point is that we we have different skills, emailing people just in the trenches, I think that's the most important thing that you can possibly have. Podcast Host 39:16 Yeah, that's really good advice. And I 100% recommend that if students are interested in starting a business in high school, the first thing they're trying to do is find a willing co founder to do that with. But anyway, Nick, it's been fantastic to have you on the show to give your insights into starting at Sydney, wishing you all the best of luck for whatever comes next. And I'd be encouraging our listeners to reach out to you in the near future. Nick M 39:36 Yeah, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Podcast Host 39:38 Thanks for listening to Top of the Class. subscribe for future episodes for show notes and to plan your best future head to crimsoneducation.org.

Ep #16 Winning the Google Science Fair and Fighting Plastic Pollution

🗓 DEC 4, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Hi Fionn, welcome to the Top of the Class. It's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Fionn 00:47 Yeah, so my name is Fionn. I grew up in Ireland, and half German, half Portuguese, and living in Netherlands. So some people describe me as European, which I also describe myself as at the moment. But essentially, what I really love doing is building things and inventing things. And I've invented lots of things, most of which have not worked, but some of which have worked. And think what I'm mainly known for is known for removing microplastics for water. I also study chemistry, and play the trumpet and like gardening on my balcony as well. Podcast Host 01:20 Gardening on your balcony? Fionn 01:21 Yeah, totally. Podcast Host 01:22 What do you grow? Fionn 01:23 I really like edible things. So anything from like edible flowers to Herbes lettuce somewhere, it's like cucumbers. Yeah. So science project. Podcast Host 01:33 Yeah, yeah. Well, everything seems to be like a bit of a science project for you, right? Like everything seems to be an opportunity to learn and grow. Talk about the Google Science Fair for us, because that's something that you won in 2019. And I know that's going to be of significant interest for a lot of our listeners. Can you tell me a little bit about what that competition actually is? Fionn 01:53 Yeah, so the Google Science Fair is a science fair. So essentially, a competition where people can enter science projects. And yeah, not only get judged and win prizes, but also get connected to a lot of like minded people who do science projects. And really, what makes this very unique over other fairs like Intel, isef and other challenges is that this fair really is looking at more the quirkiness of the science more to fund the process that you undergo, and really looking at you and how you like to invent and your passion rather than the complexity of the project. And what they also really, really focus on as well is how you communicate the project. So therefore, I feel like it's a slightly different science fair, in the sense that it might be a little bit less strict. You know, we those design friend suits and ties, we can be there in hoodies. And because of that, it's a little more fun. And yeah, it gets people who are not only scientists, but also communicators to get involved. Podcast Host 02:53 Yeah, that's a such an important part about science is the communication that you can have great science. But if you aren't able to communicate it effectively, then kind of falls flat. How did you get involved in the Google Science Fair? 03:05 Yeah, well, first, I have to give you some background on westcourt. Oh, yes. Yeah. So West Cork is quite remote in Ireland, maybe about three hours south of Cork. And I mean, well, West south, kind of, and essentially three hours into the middle of nowhere from Cork City. So you know, if you drive three hours into the middle of nowhere, you're really in the middle of nowhere when you arrive there. And just to give you a little bit of scale, the nearest town to my house, which was 10 kilometers away, and had about 2000 people living in it, not particularly big, but I thought that was really nice. We're close to the seaside. And I really felt that that area really fostered my ideas. But to get back to the Google Science Fair, what really inspired me to enter was just that I saw this YouTube ad online. And it was kind of saying, Yeah, well, you can enter the science fair online, you submit your idea, and you can win a T shirt. So I thought, Oh, I can get a T shirt. That's nice. So I approached my parents, and I was like, I want to enter the science fair, I saw you win a T shirt. And if you're really good, you can win a Chromebook. Do you allow me to enter? They were like, okay, so at the time, I was working on this microplastic removal project. And it was kind of a side project. It was something I was trying out and working on. And just playing with in my bedroom. With a couple of beakers, I think, essentially, to enter the science fair, Google Science Fair, you fill out this online form, which is like a report about your project. So you talk about the methodology is essentially all the steps. So I submitted that, and I heard nothing from them for like six months. And I thought, well, they've probably ignored me or whatever. And then I got an email, like, after six months out of the blue saying, oh, you're you're a global finalist. And you're coming to Google headquarters. So yeah, and they sent me a T shirt. Oh, that's Chromebook as well. So yes, I've got my T shirt and Chromebook. And then I went to my parents. I was like, yeah, I'm going to Google headquarters. One of you guys has to come with me. And we're going in three weeks time. And so it's all happening pretty quick. Yeah. After the big long way. It was very, very quick. Yeah. And then what they did, they brought together the finalists, we got to present our project in a format where they gave us like, stands where they designed visuals for us. And we really got to present it to a celebrity judging panel. So people we all looked up to, like editor in chief of Scientific American, National Geographic people from Virgin Galactic, Richard Branson, lots of really amazing innovators and inventors. And they then judged us, and all of them had different rubrics. Podcast Host 05:47 Okay. All right. All right, let's wind back a little bit. Because there's a lot of cool stories in that. You've talked to your parents who say, Hey, we're going to Google you're coming. This is a non negotiable, pretty much because like, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, right? What was that journey to Google headquarters? Like? I've never been, what's it like in there? Fionn 06:06 Yeah, so Google is kind of interesting. It's like an ecosystem itself. So we like arrive to this hotel on campus. And then we were cycling around and little colored bikes, and we were playing volleyball. And we had like, a week. And it was really, really nice. It was just that it really felt like a campus that embodies the spirit that I actually find is so important. And that's the spirit of play incorporated with work. And, you know, I, if you've ever watched the movie, the interns, it's really so similar that like, the whole of Google is full of slides that you can like, take a slide down from one floor to the next, or the cism, a jogging path while you're working on your laptop, or take a day off or have a nap inside when the Fed nap pods. It's really crazy. And you name it, it's there. It's always changing. And it's just this brightly colored campus that's almost like a big playground for adults. And you wonder how to get any work done there at all. But uh, yeah, it's incredible. Podcast Host 07:07 But it makes it a place that people want to be at, right? It doesn't feel like you're at a workplace, it feels like you're on a vacation almost. Fionn 07:14 Yeah. And actually, what was very funny was, the food was really, really good there. And they had these like kitchens, micro kitchens, or bigger kitchens, they could just go to help yourself. And anything like sweet or unhealthy is hidden. It's hidden in a different spot every day. So it was always a big task to try and find the like chocolate, it would be hidden somewhere in the office. And there's some of these job who's just hiding the chocolate in different placesevery day. Podcast Host 07:38 You find the chocolate that day. You're the hero of the day. Fionn 07:41 Yeah. Well, you're not allowed to tell anybody else where it is. Podcast Host 07:43 Oh, really? Fionn 07:44 Yeah, strict rules. Podcast Host 07:45 My gosh, my gosh, well, it sounds like an amazing place. Google headquarters must have a very, very cool to be at. But can you explain a little bit more about how you turned your like project that you were doing in your room, right in a couple of bakers into a science fair, ready type of project? You know, you said you had to work on displaying it and communicating it? Was this kind of the first time that you were doing that in terms of like, okay, I've been playing around with some chemicals and microplastics in my bedroom. Now I need to try and impress people like Richard Branson with it. What's that process like? Fionn 08:22 Yes, I've never, I never had done it on such a big scale before. But I did enter the National Science Fair and Ireland, were actually won the category twice in the years before then. But those were different projects. And one of them was like, a machine to test for antioxidant levels in any food sample, which which I built using a bit of Lego, Podcast Host 08:42 a thing that a young man should be doing, because we always get told eat it. It's got antioxidants in it, you're like, Okay, I'll just take your word for it. Right? I don't even know what these antioxidants are really, 08:52 the thing I learned was that so many things are not true. Like, you know, you can get the same amount of antioxidants, which you get from an orange, you know, vitamin C's, and you can get in about like six leaves of parsley. So, you know, I thought that was really interesting. Or an espresso was actually incredibly high in antioxidants, like something like 14,000 oranges worth something like that. Podcast Host 09:15 Well, I must be packed with vitamin say that I must be doing very, very well, because I do enjoy 09:20 It's not vitamin C. It's it's beta carotene. But that's another podcast. Podcast Host 09:24 yeah, yeah. No, it sounds pretty good. But so you've done a couple science fairs before so you kind of knew what that were looking for. But it was I guess, the process of turning this particular project into a Google Science Fair ready one and one that would, as you say, kind of fit with the nature and what Google Science Fair was looking for. 09:42 Yeah, and I think what's really important there in that stepping up process and it for me, I always felt very daunted by this process because you look at your like little things. They're like, how am I going to present my like, you know, mixing things that kind of look like they work and and really What I found something that was really, that always worked for me was just to test. If I see a project, and I've tried to add on the small scale, I think first is really to test the thing a lot. And something that always impresses judges is when you have done a very large amount of testing and using different variables. And that's what I did. So I tested my thing like 5000 times, I decided that was enough. Podcast Host 10:23 Wow, 5000 times. 10:26 Yeah, I did build a robot to do it for me. Yeah, I am a lazy person, I decided to build a robot instead. So I tested a lot. And then I had tons of data. And with data, you can all of a sudden talk a lot. So I looked at data and looked at trends, and look to see if my ideas had worked or not. And even if they don't work, you've still done an investigation, you still need to work in showing your scientific capability. And I think you can actually still win science fairs, even if your technology doesn't work. So then you arrive at this process where you've got all this data. And then it looks really overwhelming. You've got this type of an Excel spreadsheet where you've got like, gone to roll like triple Zed or something. Yeah, then you then you're going to have like five days of like really severe headaches. What I'd actually recommend is taking a couple of espressos and squeezing in some lemon juice that helps with me, right. I know, it sounds disgusting. It is disgusting. But it helps for me, it's a good tip. But there's another thing that you can do. And that is much more effective. And that's actually cleaning up that spreadsheet. Yeah, well, you have to look at is the trends in your data. I can't tell you how to do that, because it's different for everybody. And then I guarantee that after all of that, one will find these trends, which you're excited to talk about. And I think, really, if you've gone to the trouble of doing a couple of thousand tests, you've probably kind of liked this topic. And I think there, it's then just about putting your own voice on paper, what you think about your findings, and really to bring across your enthusiasm. And I, I think that's what really got me into the fair was just that I always brought across my enthusiasm, how I enjoyed what I did, and how I learned and what I learned while doing it as well. Podcast Host 12:10 And I think people would have appreciated the fact that you created a robot to do the testing for you. 12:14 Yeah, so so I do like that. And, for instance, something that I did in a lot of science projects, which people always like to say I always did. Surveys as well, where I looked at with people. So sending out to this case, plastic companies and asking them what they do with their micro plastic waste. Do they have contaminated water, things like that? Yeah. And I really like to do like a multifaceted approach. And as much as possible. Podcast Host 12:39 I think that sounds fantastic. And it sounds like a really interesting approach to science fairs. One thing I'm interested in is can you give us a layman's term explanation of your project, and a more advanced explanation of your project? So I how do you dumb this down for, say, a podcast host who doesn't really know too much about market plastic extraction and what exactly you did? And then perhaps like a, you know, the type of explanation that you'd give to someone who does no chemical science and those kinds of things? 13:11 Yeah, well, the process is simple for both explanations, the first explanation, the layman's explanation. And essentially what I've done is created a liquid. This liquid is made from vegetable oil. So like cooking oil, yes, and rust powder. And together, it makes this gunky, black looking liquid. But when I add it to water, it can attract microplastics out of the water, it sticks to the liquid. And because we've got rust in the liquid, you might remember iron is magnetic. If we ring magnets close to the liquid, we can simply just lift the plastics mixed with the liquid, and using a magnet from water. So like that we can use magnets to move microplastics from water. Podcast Host 13:55 Right. So the vegetable oil kind of collects the microplastics, but it's mixed in with the rust powder. So the rust powder kind of coats the microplastics is that's what's happening? Fionn 14:06 Yeah, absolutely. So the rust powder is like mixing the vegetable oil. And you kind of have to imagine a bit like a glue that can attract microplastics. And then it kind of binds them together and makes them magnetic, you've got this type of lump that you can then remove using a magnet. Podcast Host 14:20 And what kind of scale can you do that on? 14:23 So I tested it first on a very small scale, like milliliters, and it worked really well. So I had like 87% extraction in overall after my a couple of thousand tests. But then I tried on bigger scales like a liter and more. And really, it worked as long as the water has time to come in contact with the plastics and my liquid. So it's all about agitation and and how much you mix it together. So that's why it really is quite applicable to larger scales. And in my next summary, my advanced summary, essentially the method works because in chemistry, we've got polarities, yeah, this is Fairly fundamental concept, but you can have molecules that are polar or nonpolar. So a polar molecule is one that has a formal charge, or has an uneven distribution of positively and negatively charged things. And polar things really like to be together with polar things. And water possibly is the most polar thing we have. Because it has like its V shape. It's got like a super negative oxygen on one side, and then two hydrogens like sticking out the other side. And because we've got a lone pair, so like two electrons sitting on, on one side, it's a V shape, it's not a straight line. And that means that it's on equal, you've got a positive side negative side, and they do what's called hydrogen bonding. And yeah, it gets really exciting. I get excited by that. But I won't give a chemistry lesson now, I promise. But essentially, what it does is, it's super polar. And things like plastics are nonpolar. They're just carbon and hydrogen. And they really don't have those charges, attributions, and they tend to reside with nonpolar things. And oil is super nonpolar. That's why it doesn't mix with water normally. And that's why if we add oil, something nonpolar, and those nonpolar plastics will migrate to the oil phase, they'll get stuck in the oil phase, because they're just much more stable. They're then in the water phase, which is polar. Podcast Host 16:27 Does it work the same in seawater as it does in normal water? 16:32 In seawater, we have the added benefit of having a salt in there. Yeah, and there's salt is even more polar than water, because we've got these two like something that's positive split from something that's negative, like sodium chloride, and seawater, and a plus CL minus, but super polar, which means that it works better in seawater, and I've actually had higher results in seawater. Podcast Host 16:53 Oh, that's awesome. So it could be something that we could take out to the ocean, potentially, and extract microplastics on mass, is that something that you see the potential of the project being like, taking it out into the Pacific was that was that thing in the Pacific? Where it's like that massive track? Yeah, the Pacific 17:10 Garbage Garbage Patch? Yeah, I think, I think that microplastics I'm talking about things we can barely see here, those plastics in the sea are really difficult to extract. And I feel that the place where the intimacy is for wastewater, so whether it's from us washing our clothes, and plastics falling off to the tires of our car is slowly turning into Titus. And that ends up in the wastewater. And I really feel that before we can start cleaning up to see where it's in a dilute concentration, we can look at wastewater treatment centres where we've got a large influx of plastic coming all the time. And that means that immediately there we could have a bigger benefit. And I also feel like that you wouldn't be impacting wildlife, I still feel like it would be more difficult and we would have a lower impact in general removing plastics if we were to do on the sea. And that's why I'm focusing on wastewater treatment turns me Podcast Host 18:04 Okay, okay. So you don't want to impact negatively wildlife and it's probably more practical to be at the wastewater because as you said yet, we're dealing with very, very small plastic so for people who don't know, micro plastics or things like I know that a very common one is face wash, where it has like microbeads in the face wash or it's like a you know, microdermabrasion type of thing and they're rubbing their face with these little tiny plastic beads, which I know a lot of the companies are now trying to take out because there's still products with the men and then there's like the little threads of your clothes that might come off in the washing machine and as you said tire dust. I never even thought about that right like so when when it rains you know the the road is probably packed with this tire dust. Is that right? 18:48 Yeah, absolutely. And so tires is is one of the really, really big so I think over 40% of all the microplastics are actually coming from Titus 40 percents. Yes, if we look at when you drive your car, you release tires quite often and you can see the level going down. Yes, and if you've got millions of cars driving around, that's an awful lot of dust from these tires. I think also a really major one is actually paint so all our paint is a polymer plastic. And either if you wash away paint with water or if it's like it's peeled off a house, or for instance them the paint on the bottom of boats, and all of that can have a huge release of plastics as well. Podcast Host 19:31 Crazy I've never even thought about that. I've How did you get involved in all this? Can you just kind of take us through your personal journey from West Cork, getting interested in the environment and then becoming like a micro plastics extraction expert. 19:45 Well, I wouldn't quite call myself an expert. I playing with science. Yeah. But what I really love doing as I said earlier, is building things and for me, I never set out at the beginning To build something that would change, hopefully the way we can interact and live in our world. However, what I really like doing was just little contraptions that were fun to build and would give cool results. So, as I said, earlier, I did other projects where for instance, I built a contraption where I was looking at antioxidant levels in in foods. But when I was walking along the seashore that was just so close to where I lived, which I would walk along every day, I would always see increasing levels of plastic washing. And the more I read about this, the more worrying it was because I heard about that, yeah, under influence of sunlight, and bashing and stones on the seashore that can break into small bits of plastic, which we can't see but are eaten by fish and eaten by us and not very nice. So that got me thinking. And I really wanted to find out how much there was in the sea water around where I lived. So I said I'd building a machine to find out how much there was. And what I built was this thing called a spectrometer, essentially, it shines light through a sample, that is layman's summary, Chinese light sample, and, and it analyzes the light that comes back and tells me if there's plastic in the south or not, because essentially, anything of a different color absorbs light in a different way, the slightly more advanced suddenly, is essentially that we've got a it shines light, and it's like a UV vis spectrometer trying to UV light on the sample. Because plastics often have large conjugated systems of double bonds, electrons in those double bonds can be promoted to higher energy levels. And that means that it absorbs a bit of light energy. And that is carried characteristic wavelength for the plastic. And then we can use a local debris Lambert law to determine the concentration of plastic in water, which I did. Podcast Host 21:54 I'll take your word for it, but I'm sure some of our listeners know what you're talking about. But for me, I really got lost there. I prefer the layman's one. But continue. I love this. 22:03 Yeah. So essentially, what this went on to was just the fact that I had this machine, okay, in the building process, our house almost burnt down. And the electricity for my whole town got turned off because I made a short circuit. And there were a couple of minor setbacks. Just my nose. Yeah, just very minor. But essentially, that resulted in that I had this machine to test microplastics. And I found microplastics in the water. So I thought, well, I've got this machine. Great. What can I build next? Because I was like building things. Yes. And it's actually the saddest part of my process is when I'm done, or when I feel like, you know, it's kind of done, because I like the process rather than the finished product. So then it comes to the level where, essentially, I wanted to do more, and I looked at ways I could remove plastics for water. And it turned out there weren't really any. And that's what I thought, well, the worst thing that can happen if I try out is that it doesn't work. And people will laugh at me. But people are laughing at me all the time anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Podcast Host 23:05 Especially when you're short circuiting the city. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Fionn 23:09 Well, remember, it's only 2000 people, so I wouldn't really call it a city. Yeah. Okay. Podcast Host 23:13 Well, still, I'm sure yeah, people were like, geez, that fear and kid is pretty crazy doing all these awesome experiments in his room. But yeah, I wish he didn't short circuit the town. 23:23 Yeah. And also, this happened in the middle of like, one of those television shows that everybody watches now was in everybody's particularly good book. But, but really what happened then was I thought, well, I can try things out. I tried like filtering it through sand. And that didn't really work and it made a mess. And then I at the same time, so this YouTube video, actually by Diana cow, a corn or physics girl. And she was playing with this liquid called ferrofluid magnetic liquid. And I kind of thought it looked cool. Like if you it's a magnetic liquid, that's already cool enough. And I thought, well, I could try making some so I found this really old research paper from like 1860s online where they were extracting metal from stone and then being a toil which I followed reversely I didn't realize that actually, I could just buy the magnetite powder for rust powder online from eBay, but that was already after spending a month kind of hacking stones apart. Yeah, and then I played with this and I added it to water samples and saw that plastics migrated and that's what sparked the whole process of then trying out a bigger sale trying trying to add in different plastics, I added to water looking at the type of plastics it likes to take up how much it takes up, how can be improved and this is so many variables that I looked at them. Podcast Host 24:48 When you are trying to create something new like a spectrometer or like FIFA fluid, as you said and hacking about rocks which is interesting. What is your go to resource is it your own Brian, and you're like, how would I do this? How should I solve this? What can I do? Or do you go to YouTube? or Google? Or what's your go to initial resource or research phase you go through usually? 25:11 Yeah. So what I find really difficult actually, as an amateur scientist, and I think as a creative science, maybe he doesn't have access to Labs is that whenever you Google how to test for microplastics, they're going to get some research paper from some sort of like, academic institution where they have machines that costs like an arm and a leg and a bit more, and stuff that you don't understand. And it's so difficult to get that if you go into E, or YouTube, you're probably going to get like some really old Professor talking about something, some like math, the thing with some machine that you can't get, that was really difficult. So my actually go to resources, looking at very old academic papers, when, essentially back to the times where they didn't have the modern equipment that they have nowadays. Podcast Host 25:59 Right, right. And wouldn't have plastics, though, would they? 26:02 Know, but they did have spectrometers? Okay. Okay. So you know, it's a bit of a combination, I read a lot of papers would watch videos to figure out the science. And then I would just, yeah, a browser and Google, it's quite ironic that I got the Google Science Fair, I would browse around Google look at, let's say, spectroscopy, how it works. And then I thought, well, you know, they use a laser, I can just try, you know, normal light bulb. And like that I can, I just tried things out and learn from my mistakes. And I think what's really wonderful about that process is, is that you're almost following the footsteps of some of the great scientists who discovered these things. You start with such a crew, let's say with a spectrometer, and very quickly, and you can create a spectrometer like my one, which creates comparable results to one that you'd get in a lab. Podcast Host 26:50 And you're finding these old reports and research papers in a library or online? Or where are you going to find these, like, 1860 science report? 27:00 Yeah, so Google Scholar was really, really good, right. And Google Scholar is a really great resource for that type of thing. But often, you know, you kind of lose the will to live halfway through reading one of those things. And I also felt that often, it was interesting to look at other DIY scientists and, and, and reaching out, but also to professors at universities and reaching out to them, because often they have understanding. So actually, what I really like doing is, is coming up for ideas for people who want to investigate things. So maybe if there's a listener out there, if they're really wondering about how to investigate or, or build something, well, perhaps if you reach out, I might be able to, to help a little bit, or at least come up with some ideas. Podcast Host 27:44 Yeah, so you're like a, an ideation kind of guy, you've got the ideas. And then you are also not just the ideation guy, you'd love to build things as well. So you like the perfect combination? For a lot of scientists, you like to come up with an idea you like to build in your life to test you're like the ultimate amateur scientist, right? 28:04 I guess. But, um, I think that combination also is completely up to the scientist. And I know some people who just think, and you know, they'll have different projects. So it's really up to you and what you like, that's what I think these projects are so much fun, because you can exclude the bit that you don't like, except, okay, very old fashioned fairs. So I'm naming, for instance, the Intel International Science and Engineering fair, Intel isef, which I actually entered and got some awards in a different here, but I just found that was very old fashioned. So it felt very much like I was writing a PhD, although I haven't written a PhD, I can just imagine that it would feel like that. That's right, you know, a very long dissertation and very serious academic notes. And for me, that was a bit too strict, and, frankly, a little bit boring. And I just feel that, um, I like to focus on what I enjoy. Podcast Host 28:56 That's a really interesting concept about finding if you are a scientist, and you do want to enter into science competitions, I think a lot of people are attracted to Intel, because it is, you know, quite a big name. I know it's regeneron science fair now. And they've got another sponsor, but it's about finding the competition that suits you and the type of science that you like to do and the type of presentations that you see yourself giving, right, like it's isef might not be for everybody, even though as you said, you did enter and win awards in your category. But it's like comparing the two, if you were to compete in just one sounds like Google would be more your fit, right? 29:33 Yeah, totally. And like I've competed in several different ones. And I really found Google was my fit. It was fun. And we really celebrated together. They brought the 20 finalists together. We had a week where we were all doing fun icebreaker activities, and it wasn't like, whatever. It's regeneron now, but it was very strict and very competitive. No, this was we really became friends. And I think something that we have to look at is it's not about the award. sees face, it's really about connecting with other people, because I can't stress enough that the biggest resource of all is being able to talk to other people or like minded like you and talk about your concepts freely, and together, be able to benefit each other's ideas and come up with ideas. And that togetherness is really what makes it fun. Yeah, Podcast Host 30:21 I'm sure. And so you've probably got a lot of good friends from that experience, right? Like from all around the world who are doing cool projects, and you kept in touch. 30:29 Yeah, exactly. And we, for instance, particularly the Google Science Fair group, we would have regular calls where we sometimes Yeah, talk about what we're up to. And we try and chip in on each other's projects and come up with different ideas, to try and help each other. And that's a really, really nice thing to be involved in. Podcast Host 30:46 That's awesome. That's awesome. Now I know a lot of people who are listening to this would probably think fion sounds like a genius. He sounds like a guy who can have an idea. And within a week or Well, you know, even within a couple of days, he's got like a working model in his room. Does that title sit well with you? If people do think Oh, God, Fionn, you're a genius! Fionn 31:08 I know. Podcast Host 31:09 I gotta tell you a quick story. Actually, just yesterday, I was I was catching up with a friend of mine. And she's like, oh, how's the podcasting going? I'm like, Oh, that's great. I'm really excited to chat with this guy Fionn tomorrow. And she's like, oh, what, what is going on, dude? Like, what's the story? Then I read a bit about your bio. And I'm like, oh, he speaks three languages. He's got a planet named after him. He's in her. He's created this microplastics thing. That one, the Google Science Fair. And she's like, Oh, my God, He sounds like a genius. And I'm like, I'm like, Yeah, right. So it's like that, you know, I guess that's why we do the podcast, right? where it's like, what is the story behind these headline achievements that often get attached to someone like yourself, right? And people see those bullet point achievements and unattainable. This guy's like, on another level type of thing? And how, I guess Do you dispel that, that title, if it doesn't sit well with you? Fionn 31:59 But that's actually a really good question. And actually, first I'd like to add here for your listeners is that if any of them have questions, reach out to me, because I'm not overloaded with questions. The main platform I would use for engaging is Instagram. So but yeah, I'm really happy to answer questions. And actually, anybody who has questions, or if you think, you know, young scientists reach out to them, because chances are, they're not as busy as you think they are. And I always remember that, you know, there is a time when I watch Netflix as well. And I could just be looking at your emails in that time, as well. So it's always a bit of time in life. But to get back to the question, well, I feel like what I talk about in a lot of keynotes and things I get is really that we all I have, on average, the same brain size, and the same activity going on in there. And we all just use it for different things. And I really feel that genius is a bit of a weird phrase. Because I personally find that all I've done is done what I've enjoyed, and still do what I enjoy. And I just happen to be somebody who's managed to talk about it, and that some reporters, I still don't know why have decided to pick up on them and tell other people about. So I really feel like what I still have is a very simple project. Yeah, currently, I actually this week just started working with engineers on scaling it. But it's still a simple project, in essence, and anybody could have come up with it. It was not an overnight thing. I can't stress this enough. This is like months, if not years of kind of trying things out and annoying my neighbors, although the the nearest neighbors to our houses about a kilometer away, and years of trying stuff out, a lot of things did not work. And during that time, nobody ever called me a genius, except my parents. So I think one should never be disheartened by not being called a genius. But I think the word genius shouldn't be used. Because we're all geniuses at what we like doing this. Podcast Host 33:56 I like that I will go forth into the day feeling a bit more positive about my brain power. Fionn 34:01 One question I have for you in terms of the people who are around you, parents been one right? You know, they say you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with, who are those people for you? So for me, I lived I'm an only child. So I live with my two parents, and then I would have a lot of contact with my grandparents. And that was kind of it. So those I'd say are the five my parents and grandparents were really the biggest number of people I would have contact with because essentially, it was really difficult to like hang out with people of my own age because I lived in the middle of nowhere and it just made it complicated on that sense, which I never missed. Maybe because I'm an only child I just like you know in my bedroom sticking wires together and seeing your things will explode. And and and yeah, maybe the neighbors see like a mushroom cloud, although that hasn't happened yet. Podcast Host 34:51 No, that hasn't happened yet. touchwood it doesn't. 34:54 Yeah, let's hope but I really am fans that I was spending a lot of time with them and They would just I would be enthusiastic about things and they will also become enthusiastic about them and read about microplastics or look at ways that they can be more sustainable. And that kind of boosted what I was doing. My dad was a woodworker, and he still is he builds boats. So whenever I needed like something made out of wood, I would go to him and like, tell them exactly what I needed. And then we build it together. My mother is a model maker. And she makes smaller models that paper. So there I could like do the micro scale building stuff, which was also really fun. Podcast Host 35:31 You're a family of builders? 35:33 Yeah, in essence, and actually, my grandparents are. My grandmother is an architect and my grandfather, also architect and builder, so completely building. And yeah, it came from their schooling, I found really difficult because actually, for me, first of all, I didn't really have that many friends, mainly because it was a bit different. I think I want it to be different as well. Yes. I the school actually didn't really support my ideas that much. And I really felt it was difficult to get time to, to work in them. But also, I actually didn't really get on my chemistry teacher so well, mainly because I was always enthusiastic and just wanted to do way more than we have to do. And however, I did get a lot of advice from them. And particularly one teacher helped me on the like dissertation aspect and, and the formalities of it. But I really think that I have to give my credit to my family. In this because I I really felt schools in general, should do more to look at maybe incorporating the extracurricular investigation of projects in their curriculum, or, Podcast Host 36:34 particularly for science, right? Like it should be an investigation of an application of what you're learning. And a lot of the time it's learning to get a good score on a test, right? Fionn 36:45 Absolutely. And I really feel that that's flawed. Because science is all about thinking outside the box, or playing with ideas, and associating them with different things and playing with them, putting them together in different orders and seeing where it takes you. And I really think that studying for a test does not follow that. And it doesn't promote that. And I think science is a mindset. It's not necessarily a big host of chemical names or knowledge that you've learned. But I really feel that that science is a way to think, as a method to think. And I think that that can be applied. If you can have that method, you can figure out the names later. Actually to add, I was really bad at learning stuff off at high school, like learning Spelling's and things like still my spelling is very bad. In fact, at the moment, it's still so bad that spellcheck doesn't recognize that I've spelt it wrong. Podcast Host 37:37 Oh, well, Spellchecks the problem, not you. Fionn 37:38 Oh totally. Blame spellcheck. Podcast Host 37:41 One thing I'm interested in is what you had in your room, as like an amateur scientist and a builder and a maker and a family of builders and makers. What kind of science equipment did you have in your room? And what do you think other amateur scientists should have is like, their go to build a maker science toolkit type of thing, because you can buy these things at like, you know, a National Geographic store or something. And it might be, you know, like a baker or something like that. But what were your go to tools that you had around the house that helped you to become you know, an amateur scientist and test out all these things? Fionn 38:15 That's a cool question. Actually, I've never been asked these questions. Actually, I really love this podcaster really researching it well, and it's really fun to speaking. But um, yeah, so what I had in my room would be tools. I love sensors, I love being able to like autonomously send stuff and work with data. So for me, I had a big box of like bits for an Arduino and Raspberry Pi, where I could like, make my own sensors and robots. Podcast Host 38:41 Can you just go back Arduino and Raspberry Pi? Fionn 38:45 Yeah, so there are two like mini microcontroller computer things that you can hook up to like any sensor you can imagine. So like, you need the sensor, like for air pressure, humidity, light color, you name it, they've got it. And it's super cheap. Like, I'm talking like three $4 for a sensor. And then what you can do, you can hook them up, and you can, if it's in a titration, looking at the color change. Yeah. And you can plot these doubters. You can import them and play with science. And, and I really find that for me, seeing what I could measure, using the capabilities of technology, widen my horizons on on what was possible. And I think for any good science project, you really need to be good at collecting data. And by using sensors to so useful, Podcast Host 39:31 I'll put the sensors in there, I'd never even heard of those things. So I'll put those in the show notes. I'll try and find something if you can send me a link to them or something. Fionn 39:38 There's so many bits for Arduino. Yeah, I could give you like a list of things that are useful, but it really depends on the project and you can research it. And it's it's really like open source. There's like billions of things you can add to it, and marketing here. That's an open source platform. But what I also then had was a computer is kind of useful. Lot of books and notebooks I can scribble down I really like like a three really big things. Yes, I don't know why I like to have a really big overview. And then like a really big desk. So I got my dad built a desk all the way around my room. And then my bed was really high. And I was always covered in stuff. And yeah, bit of wiring, couple of LEDs. And then it's also really useful is things that you can build boxes out of select cardboard, and, and maybe a cutting knife and a scissors. So that kind of like mechanical building materials are also useful later, Lego, a lot of Lego, I'm a real I have boxes of Lego and Lego so useful because that's a good prototyping material. Yes, we're, I think Macondo is also quite useful in ways as well. And then in addition to all of that, yeah, laboratory glassware is not so important, you know, jam jars do the trick, as well. And, really, I think that it depends on what you're researching. But I think in essence, you will find the materials you will need by a research. And I think somebody to stay away from is you always see these kind of expensive kids with stuff to build with. And I think in almost every circumstance, you can build those pieces of equipment, whether it's a microscope or something on a really, really tight budget, and I think you will learn more, and it'll be more fun for you to do it that way than to just buy already made things. Podcast Host 41:29 Yeah, it's funny how students will say, Oh, I'm great at chemistry, or they're great at physics, but I say to them often, oh, how would people know that you're great at physics and chemistry is like, blow get great scores. Okay, that's interesting. How is your application of that? And how do you go about turning the scores into the science? Otherwise, it's really just memorization? Right? It's not really science. It's just the memorization of chemical equations. And you know, that kind of mathematical equations in physics? How do you think students should go about turning their knowledge into actual science? If they don't have a desk all the way around their room, for instance? Fionn 42:12 Well, actually, I don't. Currently, I'm living in my student accommodation. I also don't have a desk all the way around my room. Essential. Okay, good, good, good. Yeah, actually, there came a point when all of a sudden, now I love organizations, I like everything organized, but I still do a lot of invention. So great, it's fun. But I really feel that one has to look at what one is passionate about. And for me, at least, what I'm really passionate about is the environment and the place where I grew up and seeing that destroyed. And I think, in essence, looking at problems and finding solutions is almost always science based. And I think that if you really enjoy science, and if you're good at science, you can apply the concepts that you're learning at the school to those different things. So whether it's in biology, you're learning about the Krebs cycle, and and like Hollis as well, one can immediately look at how intricate that processes and and see the world around you, the environment around you and research it that way and like that learn in a different way. So for me, it's always kind of illustration based learning. So I think really, one has to look at what you are passionate about what you love doing. And I think from that science projects will come naturally to you. If you just do a bit of research and a bit of reading. Podcast Host 43:27 I think it's always fascinating as well, how students, you were probably what how old? Were you at the time when you started investigating? microplastics do you think 1617 microplastics was 16? round? Fionn 43:37 But I had other projects before then. Podcast Host 43:39 Right? So you've been doing projects for a while. I think it's always a barrier for students to get over is that mental switch of I'm a student, I can solve this type of thing. I think a lot of students look at a problem. And I know when I was at school, and still today, sometimes when I'm looking at problems, I say, Oh, well, I'm sure someone else is already working on it. What's the point type of thing? You know, I'm here in my bedroom clinking together beakers and that kind of thing? Am I really going to make a difference? And am I just wasting my time? So how did you approach it where you felt like you could have a solution to the problem? And I know that you were researching microplastics? And you didn't say anything particularly out there? Did you kind of think well, why then Could I have the solution to this problem. And you know, putting it on yourself to come up with a solution. Fionn 44:27 So I always was daunted by this, that it felt like it was really far to get to like the frontier and to the end of the field, like you need so much knowledge, so many years of study, like it was unattainable. That's not true. That's something I've learned since that, essentially, if you read a couple of papers about something, and if you spend a couple of months researching something, chances are you're going to be in the top of that field really, really quickly, because you're just looking at a very focused niche and you can get to the front very, very quickly of that. So I think we have the expertise and, and the at least the possibility of making an impact and through our innovations. And I really feel that after investigating and after that research phase, you will probably have fresher ideas because you haven't spent half a lifetime researching that, you will have completely new ideas, because you've very quickly got there. And you still have other thoughts in the background, you're not kind of trained to this one way television. So I think that perhaps one actually has an advantage. So don't feel like you are left out because you haven't done all this research. And because I really feel that it's very easy to get to the top of the field very quickly. And that can result in you coming up with very fresh and creative new ideas, and to combat or working on a problem. That's really good advice. Podcast Host 45:49 I think students should definitely take heed of that. And I always say to students, there is a distinct advantage to being young, you know, when you're contacting professors, people are like, Oh, how impressive like a, you know, 1516 year old kid like investigating this thing, which is usually university or professional level science, or I'll give them my time, right? There's a lot of advantages to being a student. And sometimes it is in just the way you think and approach problems. Where you're not. Yeah, we haven't been trained out of it, so to speak. Fionn 46:15 Yeah, I am feeling that now, actually, because yesterday was my birthday. Happy birthday, yesterday. Thank you for that, essentially, now I'm like, Oh, I'm 20. Like now I can't call myself a teenager anymore. Now, when I come across some like this young adult, it's kind of depressing, Podcast Host 46:32 right? Because for the last couple of years, they're like, Oh, this teenager is microplastics Fionn 46:36 oh well done you little child. And now all of a sudden, it's a different ballgame. So definitely make use of that advantage while you can. Podcast Host 46:46 Yes, yeah, exactly. And I think some of the students Yeah, just if anyone listening out there is thinking, Oh, I'm just a kid. That's a good thing. Right? Like, that's a that's a commodity, but you need to use, because that doesn't last forever, that's for sure. Fionn 46:59 Yeah, totally. And I think also that as a kid, you don't need to often worry that you know, how a job and how you need to work on money. And, and for me, really, the whole concept of investigating something felt so much easier, because I had the time, okay, he's going to school, but I, I had the time. And that's great. I still have the time I still study, just my studies are a little more intense. And now I just have the pleasure of being able to work on a lot of parallel projects. And that's really, really fun. Podcast Host 47:28 Awesome, awesome. Well, yeah. Talk us through about what you're doing. Now. You're in the Netherlands. Why did you choose to go to the Netherlands for uni? Yeah, so Fionn 47:34 I really looked at unis for chemistry, I like chemistry. And I wanted ones which are very research based, but also pretty good. So when I was looking around this, this was 2016. And I was majoring looking. And actually, a couple of years before a professor from this university at the University of Groningen, in Netherlands where I live, he won the Nobel Prize for chemistry. And his his whole concept is that universities are places for play. And we play with molds. And he's made a molecular machine. And he actually lectures first year is here. And that's really, really great that we just have this research based university, I also really wanted to go abroad, I thought it would be fun to go to a place where I can understand language, okay, I study in English. But you know, when I go to the supermarket, it will take me at the beginning, like an hour to find butter and things like that. Yeah. And that was really fun. And also immerse myself in a different culture, make a different friend group and just get out of my comfort zone. So that was great. What I also then found and worked on was just as I moved here, I went to Google Science Fair. So when I arrived at this university here, university newspaper decided to do like an article about me, and all the like information screens. In the first week here is a picture of me, and all the newspapers everywhere in university, the picture of me, and it was like, I was just making friends. And everybody like I'd be waiting in a lecture. And like everybody, like recognize their face. It was terrible. And actually, more recently, I got to be part of the HP commercial. So yeah, for HP, their commercial that's running in the US and EU. And the other day, we had lecture we've got in person lectures, again, we're showing a YouTube video. And it played this commercial, as like, as the ad for the YouTube video. Oh, terrible. So like, you see, like all the faces in the lecture hall turn towards you. That's hilarious. But then all of a sudden, a huge load of possibilities came out. So like giving keynotes to different audiences about my experiences, being able to go to the World Economic Forum, and in January, were some of the amazing things I did. And now I'm at a stage where I have so many connections from that, that I've been able to stay on my technology. And this week, I'm starting work with engineers who are going to make a product out of my idea. I and we're going to really look at how we can use the idea of To make your filtration device for my classics for water, then in parallel, I'm actually looking at perhaps writing a children's book in the near future, where I go through the process that I go through, but also like, it's a nice aspect where I can just sketch and, you know, play a little bit with it. Yes. And also I would really like to work on is a platform where I can put together some tools that I found for amateur scientists, and hopefully inspire others. But what I would also really like to do is to be able to educate and hopefully tell stories, not just about my research, but explain chemistry and other things. And what makes me so excited about it to other people. Yeah, well, I Podcast Host 50:43 think that's what helps you win the Google Science Fair, right? It's that enthusiasm, and I can feel it and everything you say, right, I can't believe we've gone like an hour. And we haven't even spoken about the fact you've got a planet named after you. Fionn 50:58 It's pretty crazy that we've been chatting all this time. And I think students will be very interested in that. So maybe, before I ask you one last question, I would ask you this second last question, which is how do you get a planet named after you? That actually came from Intel, International Science and Engineering fair? Okay, in 2018, where the MIT Lincoln Laboratory, select some projects that they think, have made a considerable contribution to science, and they give minor planets to them, or don't give them to us, but they named them after us. Yeah, minor planet, Fiona Ferreira, and 34497 is its number. And it's in the asteroid belt, just between Mars and Jupiter, actually quite close to Ceres at the moment, and six kilometers wide. And it's just really nice to be embodied there. And let's just hope that my planet doesn't crash into Earth anytime soon. Then in the information manual, they do say that they predict that it won't crash in the next 2000 years. And let's hope I'm gone by then. But hopefully, people will remember me if it does crash into earth. And if humans are still here. Podcast Host 52:01 Well, that's a lot of ifs. But yeah, let's just hope that it doesn't and stays out there and whatnot. And people can look upon it and be like, Oh, that's Fionn Ferreira, how did that happen? And what did he do, and they can look back and say he was trying to solve a really cool problem. Any other advice you would give to students and our listeners, before we depart? Fionn 52:19 And for your listeners, I would just really like to emphasize that it's so easy. If you are passionate about something to come up with ideas and to you those ideas will not seem like much at the beginning my one didn't either. But I just tried it out just for the sake of it, just like I did when I was a really young child. And by trying it out, I didn't just box it off, didn't just say didn't work. And that process of trying that made me discover something that I didn't expect. And that's what sciences. So I think never ever box off something. Never, ever take something for granted. Always try that if you possibly can. And I think that that is what embodies the spirit of investigation. And hopefully like that we can get a whole new generation of young people who are coming up with incredible ideas Podcast Host 53:10 for you. And it's been an absolute pleasure. It's been really great to hear that. Fionn 53:14 Yeah. And also for me, I always see these kind of things like I see something. And I think well that's kind of cool to work with. That's a kind of a cool tool. I don't know what I'll use it for yet, but I'm going to learn it like whether it be I know Excel because it's kind of cool. And maybe it'll come in useful later. And for me inevitably, all those things have always come in useful later. Podcast Host 53:36 Thank you so much for your time and it's been awesome chatting, and yeah, wishing you all the best for your time there in the Netherlands. I can't wait to see what you do next. Fionn 53:43 Thank you very much. Podcast Host 53:44 Awesome. Thanks, Fionn. Have a great day.

Ep #15 Winning Olympiad Medals and Life at Harvard with Ben Zhang

🗓 DEC 2, 2020

See transcript

Jamie Beaton: 0:00 Welcome, Ben. Ben Zhang: 0:51 Hey, Jamie. Jamie Beaton: 0:51 Now, Ben is a very humble guy. So to get us started to give you a sense of his really exciting achievements, he was a IBO, International Biology Olympiad gold medalist, an International Chemistry Olympiad bronze medalist, he came first across New Zealand in three A Levels, top of the country and chemistry physics, English Lit also scored top in the world and biology. Switching to NCAA, he was a premier scholar, not only in year 13, but actually also in year 12, which is very unique, and was top scholar in physics and chemistry, and is currently rocking it at Harvard, with an almost perfect GPA. So to kick things off for us, take us back to your childhood, your early upbringing, when did academics become a thing for you? And how did you kind of get the inclination, this could be something that you're pretty passionate about? Ben Zhang: 1:03 For me, academic really started kicking in I thi k, end of year 11, or like yea 10 actually, I should say, bec use we did things one year ahe d. So I was doing year 11 curri ulum in yet 10 but it was real y when I started doing the exte nal exams, like IGCSE and Camb idge exams that I really w s like, oh, I really got to l ke, study hard because these ar like actual exams that really m tter. Because before that poi t, I think the New Zealand ducation system does a really g od job of like, sort of coddling kids into thinking like, Oh you know, like, everythi g's fine. Like, we have these li e school projects. To be hones , I wasn't really sure like, wh t exactly, we were learning at many points, especial y in like Intermediate School a d primary school. So my whole ap roach to school has really j st been like very focused n like sports and other extracur icular activities and hanging ith my friends. So it wasn't r ally until when there's this loo ing sense of these grades a e going to matter that it reall started to kick in and honestly and like yeah, nine and even through yet 10. Like, I was, lik , I would say, like, in the top uadrant of the class, but neve really been too outstand ng in terms of academic . Um, yeah. Jamie Beaton: 2:19 That's my best reading. Because often students that do so well, at the back half of high school go pretty hard, quite early on even an intermediate and things like math and English, they can build these kind of good foundations. So what do you think enabled you to just kind of switch it on when it came to gear? 11? Do you think you already had some pretty solid fundamentals? But you weren't really pushing as hard as you did later on? or How did you kind of just switch it on like that when it came to game time in year? 11? Ben Zhang: 2:44 Yeah, I really liked the thing you mentioned about fundamentals. And I think that's really, really important. So why whole experience has been so I life with my grandparents. And my grandmother has always been a very staunch advocate of like, education and getting me ahead in my schoolwork. And in fact, she would often whenever she goes back to China, she would buy textbooks like intermediate high school textbooks from China, and then bring them back and then to demand like math and chemistry and biology. In fact, she was a chemical engineer in China. And she had like a lot of experience, tutoring like relatives, and other family friends chemistry, so she was already very well versed in like pedagogy and has like a really good approach and teaching things intuitively. And I think that's really helped me like, not just like, starting in high school, it really started when I was like five, or six, starting with math and Chinese and then slowly progressing into the sciences. So building that foundation of having like, really good studying habits from a really early age, where I think most people if they had just studied at school would just be like, you know, like when I was doing at school, which is just like playing around for eight hours a day, and then not really thinking too deeply about school. So I think I had that foundation, it wasn't just it was just like not translated. And this will work because like I said, up until that point, there was like a disconnect between the material that I was learning from Chinese textbooks and what I was learning in class, which is focused on like, I don't know, like the social sciences. And even in math, it was like, very, very fundamental concepts and problem solving, like the sort of method style questions that you see, which is really different from like, formalized mathematics courses, in like, pre algebra, pre calc and straight into calculus. So yeah, so that disconnect, sort of converges in year 11. When we do igcc in Cambridge, this really this alignment between like the different international standards, and that's when you really, that's when I really realized, Oh, I already have really strong fundamental knowledge of what's going on in school already. And I think that's what really allowed propelled me ahead in that sense. Jamie Beaton: 4:49 Wonderful. I think it's really insightful. That's fascinating, actually. One thing I see amongst many high achieving students is the parents are heavily engaged from a young age. Interesting that it was your grandmother To me was my mother. But there's often that that trait among students that are pushing pretty hard. So in terms of motivation on a spectrum, from, you know, extrinsic thinking about getting into top colleges trying to win awards like dux to intrinsic, where you just love the subject innately. How did you find your motivation over the years? So what initially motivated you? And you know, in say Year 11? How did that evolve by year 13? Did it change much? Walk me through kind of how motivation existed for you? Ben Zhang: 5:28 Yeah, I think growing up, obviously, the motivation primarily came from like, just wanting to impress my grandparents and my parents and wanting to like, make my parents proud. That's sort of like the fundamental drive of many kids and young adults. And I think over the years that sort of progressed into like, like, sort of like a self challenge, self motivation, it wasn't really ever about the glory, or the recognition, it was always about pushing myself to see what I can achieve. And I think that's what I find the most satisfaction working in. Because like, after starting college, and Harvard, there's a lot of wonderful people I, I'm sure, you know, and I think the really toxic culture of comparing yourself with others, which is also prevalent in New Zealand high schools as well, it's really not the way that you should be approaching your learning, I think the way that you should be approaching your learning is one out of like self motivation and wanting to improve on your own and comparing yourself to how you achieve and your potential versus what other people are able to achieve, right? Because everyone is starting off at different points, it doesn't make sense for you to compare yourself against someone else that has been like getting the fundamentals and doing extra work at home, versus someone who might have just stumbled into an organic chemistry class like I see now. So currently, I'm actually a teaching fellow for Harvard's introduction to organic chemistry class. And it's really interesting, because from the teacher perspective, you can immediately see the kinds of kids that already have a really strong background of everything, versus the kids have never seen this topic before. And the improvements that they make versus the often sometimes the kids that already know the material actually slipped behind because they don't prioritize doing the problems as much. So I think it's really a matter of finding that intrinsic motivation. And that's the most important thing, even after school, right? Even going into the workplace, you're not going to be able to chase the next achievement or whatever. Once you start working. Jamie Beaton: 7:31 I think it's very well said to kind of give you a bit of challenge on that. In high school, ultimately, there is a degree of relative competition where a school like Harvard is going to look at, you know, all of the kids that are a particular year group, and they're going to look at who is thriving relative to the normals of med school. And they're going to think about things like class rank. So when you are the highest achieving student, and you're kind of setting your own pace, so to speak, you know, you're the best runner in the race, you're running ahead, you know that that narrative makes a lot of sense. And I think it makes sense generally, but for the students who say sitting in school, and they, you know, say, doing well academically, but they're not the top student, they're thinking about, you know, how they can balance academics and other activities. You think they should be looking at their classmates to get a sense of how hard they're pushing to help get a sense for in their own life? How they should allocate time academically? Or do you think you should just not look at other students around you, period? I guess pragmatically, where do you sit on that kind of spectrum? Ben Zhang: 8:33 Yeah, I think I think it's helpful to look at where you are relatively often, because that tells you like, where your strengths and weaknesses are, right? I think comparing yourself is a really good tool of self diagnostic. And you shouldn't really be beating yourself up over a particular area. That is, in fact, just not something that you're interested in that like school prioritizes, right. Like I think New Zealand, high schools really, really prioritize the natural sciences, which is really, really interesting. Because that prioritization, I guess to a certain extent, I'm not too sure. But speaking to friends in America, there is also this prioritization, natural sciences, but less so I would say there's more emphasis on like, digital technologies, for example, economics, entrepreneurship, possibly due to the larger economy as a whole, but also just a different perspective. And I think in high school people, like oh, like, we're gonna do chemistry and biology and physics. Whereas when you reach college, a lot of people will be studying like economics or applied math. And I think this shift really represents that really represents something where you should be learning the skills of how to learn as opposed to the content of what you're learning if that makes sense. I think I went off on a tangent there um. Jamie Beaton: 9:49 That makes a lot of sense makes a lot of sense. And building on that point you made about this kind of different cultural expectation and New Zealand part of the US. I think that's particularly true of computer science and AI find it very funny. So in New Zealand, computer science is seen as a bit of a, you know, easy subject, not many really motivated kids take that as an A level, a lot of the time. But yet I look at all of our Crimson alumni who are, you know, gone to schools like Stanford, Harvard, other great schools around the world. Many of them go to work in tech and Silicon Valley, other parts of the US they work in finance doing quant trading firms like Citadel de shore, and they use computer science as one of the most popular skills in their toolkit. So what do you think about computer science? in particular? Do you think that's like a sort of chronic gap in New Zealand? Do you think it's just fine, people can self study it later on? What's your attitude towards kind of computer science education in high school? Ben Zhang: 10:42 Yeah, I think it's, it's really representative of the wider economy, right? Like, if you study computer science in New Zealand, your job prospects are a lot poorer than if you study computer science in the US. Well, obviously, if you leave New Zealand, I guess your job prospects are great. It's just that parents, schools, teachers don't really see what's possible when you study computer science. And it hasn't really taken off in New Zealand to a certain extent, right. Like, if you have kids that are like a lot of my friends grew up in Silicon Valley, their parents are like execs. They're gonna know the importance of studying CS studying math, math is another thing. I think New Zealand does have like a pretty strong math education program with like mathematics. And that excitement, but I think that's sort of wears off in the later parts of high school. And math is sort of de emphasized. But I'm going to hobbit I'm really surprised like how important math is in a lot of different, really high paying in demand careers, which is really interesting. At one point I considered studying maths just really shows how important is as a skill, whereas in high school, the sort of sentiment at least I and a lot of my friends had and we ridiculed a math teacher four is like, when the hell am I going to use these skills? When when am I gonna like, differentiate something? Right? Like, when am I gonna do this like obscure math concept. And the truth that's it's actually relevant in a lot more real world applications than what kids are made to think. And I think that perspective of like, who's doing well in high school, versus who's doing well, later on, there's also a large disconnect, because the brightest kids in New Zealand tend to go into like medicine, law or engineering, which is like, I guess the same story as America in the 1950s. Those were seen as the traditional upper middle class professional careers. Whereas nowadays, there's a lot more emphasis on like, the professional substance, like consulting, banking, as well as tech. So I think it's a wider shift that hasn't really hit New Zealand yet. I mean, it's slowly is it's slowly especial, but not to the same extent. Jamie Beaton: 12:45 I can totally relate to that when I was going through school, I really loved math, it was something that I put a lot of time into. And I just never saw it as a career pathway. So when I was 14, I thought I was thinking of medicine, you know, almost for sure, with a New Zealand because, you know, engineering didn't seem as interesting compared to say, medicine for me. And it wasn't until I came across economics, and I set a link about careers in America, like on Wall Street, that I thought, wow, actually being quite good at math can really be a big advantage. And I think it's fair to say that that is probably the most critical skill for many of these modern economy jobs, whether it be finance, tech consulting elsewhere, even entrepreneurship. So I think you're very right in the need for those fundamentals. Do you think that everybody, regardless of kind of career pathway should be getting to a decent level of math, and what level do you think is acceptable? Yeah, Ben Zhang: 13:33 I think basically, like college introduction, like when referencing the hobbit curriculum, then it's like 21, a 21. b, which is introduction to multivariable. calculus, and introduction to linear algebra, I think those once you have those fundamentals, it's pretty, you're pretty set. But being really good at those as well as knowing some probability. What helps statistics I think statistics is incredibly powerful. And understanding the world that we live in, and as has so many applications in business, as well as many other careers like even medicine, right? Like if you have an innate intuition for statistics, then you can much better assess how well you're doing as a physician, or like how well treatments are going without falling prey to a lot of the probabilistic fallacies and mis assumptions that you get. If you absolutely know nothing about statistics. Jamie Beaton: 14:23 I think back to classes like step 110, at Harvard, with Professor Blitzstein, and basically the funny examples, he gives us, you know, these very smart doctors who make big mistakes and vaccine probabilities, or, you know, type one, type two errors and stuff. So I think it's really interesting that even people that have risen to the top of their field, even in law, for example, without a basic grasp of statistics can really interpret a lot of evidence quite incorrectly. And so I think it's a very apt recommendation for people to learn statistics. So I guess we've kind of jumped into this and we talked a lot about you know, Harvard already and you know, this Halfway and some of the difference between New Zealand and America, but I guess the question exists, you know, when did you set your sights on going to America? What was the trigger that made you realize this was the pathway for you? And at what age did it become the goal? Ben Zhang: 15:14 I think, um, for me, it really crystallized my desire to go to America after doing the international chemistry Olympiad. And yet well, I think that was a really formative experience in several ways. The first of which is I got to meet so many different people from around the world, with so many different experiences and thoughts and insights that I just didn't get back home in New Zealand with my friends, like I love my friends back home, but it's just really different. And I think I wanted to be in an environment where I'm constantly challenged by other people's experiences. And I'm constantly learning new things and being made a little bit uncomfortable, because I think I am someone who don't really like change, but I really do thrive in a changing environment. So I think it's just this desire to put myself in a place where I'm going to grow a lot as a person. And I think I grew a lot. As a person, I also think everyone should move away if they could, and they have the means to for university or college. Because you really do learn a lot about growing up and living on your own and forming friendships and relationships with people and a adult way that's removed from like the sort of friendships that you've had in high school. So there was that. And then second of all, OSHA, seeing the caliber of students from around the world and seeing what's possible, as well as hearing about the students in America about the experiences that that they've had doing research, working with world class professors, and research institutions on some of the coolest science projects in the world has just been enlightening. Jamie Beaton: 16:58 I think this idea of being exposed to the world stage, and what it means for your ambition is so crucial. I think, there are many people around the world who just simply don't know people in these environments, and so don't know how just how high they can aim. So, for example, as recently, you know, you've also been working on this as well, we've been trying to build this Crimson Global Academy. And one of the foundational principles here is that, you know, if you're in a school that's totally global, I think this consumer in 20 countries now, early on in your life, you're going to be exposed to ambitions from many different countries, you're going to hear about all kinds of different career ambitions, and you're not going to think about your home country as your kind of opportunity set. So I think the earlier we can sort of systematize, you know, the act of say, a 13 year old to meeting smart minds for America, or China or Russia or other countries, the better for that ambition. And I think it's also really good for cultural understanding as well, you know, I think it's hard to imagine huge amounts of racism would exist in a world in which very young age, you're exposed to people from all different, you know, ethnic backgrounds, and you grew up with these people. And I think that's very radically different to the world of, say, our parents or our grandparents, who typically, you know, grew up in one country lived in that country, there's a lot of homogenous communities around them, etc. So I think the sort of magic of these high achieving global competitions is that they often do elevate ambition, in quite a big way. So I guess, let's look deeper into the Ico, you know, you didn't just participate in the Ico, you know, you got onto the international stage, you know, winning a bronze medal, which is, you know, very difficult to achieve. And you did it from New Zealand as well. So, how did you train for the Ico? You know, what were the tactics you used? How much time did it take kind of walk me through what it actually takes to get a medal on one of these Olympiad competitions? Ben Zhang: 18:39 Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And it's, it's really a long process. Well, usually students start I would say, in year 12, because that first entrance exam in the September before the competition, the following year is going to be on Yeah, 12 material. So because I was a class, doing the accelerant program, I was one year ahead. So I actually did it in year 11, because I had already done the material already. So there's a first round exam in September, and then you get selected for the training group. And over a summer break, like December, January, they'll send you like, a booklet with extra problems, extra theory for you to study on your own. I think now, they also have a more formalized training program with like problems online on like education, perfect for you to walk through yourself just to keep yourself accountable. So you do that. And then in March, you're going to have well, February or March, you're going to have a camp selection exam. And in that exam, that's basically administered at school and you do it and that's testing both the material that you would have learned in school unlike yet 12 chemistry, as well as this new material, that's often just Yes, chain chemistry that they've sent you as well as any other relevant concepts. And then after that, Around a group of 20, people will be like the national finalists, and you'll attend a residential training camp, often over Easter break. So in April, they'll bring you to Auckland, you'll love in one of the partner schools that they've got set up for about, I would say, like five days, five, six days. And then each day is structured like lectures in the morning labs in the afternoon, you'll learn a lot of the lab techniques to make equitable. If you haven't seen a lot of the lab techniques at school, they'll teach you all the lab techniques. And then the final two days, you'll have a four hour practical examination. And then the following day, you'll have like a theory examination. And out of those, the top four students will be selected to represent New Zealand at the international competition. And I guess, July, and from there, your travel to all of the wonderful countries that are hosting this competition. So in my year was held in Georgia, which was an amazing experience. And then in the actual international Olympiad itself, you also sort of have the first few days of just settling in they have a lot of social events, so you know, mingle with the other competitors from different countries, you're encouraged to like, exchange gifts, and tell stories about where you're from. There's also a lot of traveling and a lot of excursions to like the local side. So you do get to see a lot of the city and a lot of the country itself, because Georgia is not a big country, you can essentially drive everywhere. So we got to see a lot of the old churches from like the early turn of the millennium. And that was really fascinating and fun. And then finally, you'll have a full day, essentially, six hours of theory, and then the practical examination, which is like doing lab experiments. And then the following day, you'll have like eight hours of very examination. So it's a really grueling process, if you think about it, but I'm definitely really worthwhile. A lot of it has to do with intrinsic motivation, that's the thing that we keep coming back to, because this is something that's like, you're not going to get a grade for, right. It's not something that you're doing in school, where you're doing it with a lot of other friends. So you might have friends that are also studying for the same exam. So I was fortunate enough to have a friend in my class who also made the New Zealand team. So we were sort of studying together the whole time. But other than that, it's really a very isolating process, you do a lot of really, really difficult chemistry questions like chemistry problems that as me as a third year in university, I still haven't like studied the full range in university. Yeah, so it's really like a bringing you up to speed in the world of chemistry. And you're sort of expected to learn that really quickly. And a lot of the times, the teachers and mentors don't even know the problems, and you sort of have to go online and try and find the necessary resources, often in Russian about how to solve these particular chemistry problem. It's a really fun experience in that sense of that you're learning a lot independently. But with that also comes the need for you to be really self motivated and really wanting to do well. And this, I would say the preparation itself, it's like, you just have to chip away at it, it's not something that you could study the night before, there's just way too much material. And it's just really, really difficult. And there's a lot of critical thinking involved. Oftentimes, it's you'll get the theory, and then they'll figure some really convoluted spin on it, that will be impossible to do unless you just know the inside out of the theory and apply it. Jamie Beaton: 23:21 And I guess one thing that jumps out to me is if you think about, you know, people that compete at, say, the Olympics, board, they often begin these sports very edge trainer for a very long time. And they go and compete. You know, in this case, you described how you kind of hopped into this, you know, incredibly competitive initiative, basically in year 12. And so my question for you is, if you were to go back and you know, you were to train somebody whose goal was sit on, you know, an ICL, gold medal or something, do you recommend they start many years younger? Do you think they should be gone through this process, when they're like 1314, they've got many more years to mask the content, because it just seems like an incredible rush to get through all these complicated concepts to be not only learning new content, but also trying to apply it to these difficult theoretical problems. So do you think that you know that that would be kind of how you would you know, optimally prepare? Ben Zhang: 24:08 I have some thoughts on this, because I think this is what math does, at least in New Zealand, and also overseas. So in the math Olympiad, you often have a kid come in, who's really good at math, who had really, really brilliant math preparation, and Intermediate School and start up high school. And because the international math Olympiad never covers calculus, it's always precalculus and number theory, set theory etc. You have these Yeah, nine kids that basically can come in and represent New Zealand at the math Olympiad. And I think that's good and well, and that's usually the case because math is such a difficult when you get to the theoretical levels of it, it's like very difficult to grasp, unless you just have some sort of intuition that's either brought up at a really young age, or you just study the heck out of it. I think with chemistry, it's a little bit different and that the concepts of there and there's a lot of rules and that's just being able to under Stand the fundamental concepts in a way, that's really well, and oftentimes kids don't start learning chemistry until yet. 10 1112. Anyway, so that's the barrier there. I think if you started learning chemistry early at my help, but the thing is that it also requires just general science intuition, right? It's not like math intuition, which sort of is like, abstract and doesn't build on itself, chemistry, intuition sort of builds on your understanding of the natural sciences sort of builds on physics, and a lot of math as well. So you're going to need that math. So a lot of the chemistry problems that we do in the end ends up being math problems, while just like more simple math problems. So having that foundation is also really important. And I think, because of the, the cumulative nature of it, it's going to be harder to do at a super early age. But I do think that if you prepare well for it, it's really important. It's also about like, knowing the right resources, because we officially get preparation from like New Zealand chemistry, Olympiad trust, but the materials that we get as often like, not as complete or not as comprehensive as kids in other countries get all like, they just know a heck of a lot more like, for example, organic chemistry. And that's just the nature of the curriculum, like they're told to just read this textbook. And that textbook is often like what I'm doing now in college, like introduction to organic chemistry, at the college level. So being able to know a lot of these more advanced concepts that they don't cover in high school in New Zealand, and what the New Zealand Olympiad committee has decided, it's like, it's just not worth its time, would would really just be the way to do it. And I think the other caveat of studying too early is that you will learn the material really well. But you have to try and hit your peak knowledge and lessons for Olympic athletes as well, right, you want to hit your peak fitness, add around competition time, you don't want to train really, really hard, and then be at a level where you're like, Okay, I'm happy. And then you can't maintain that level. So I think I kind of, that's what happened to me in the international chemistry Olympiad is that like, I sort of really, really gone hard for the selection exam, and I was really, really prepared. And then in the month afterwards, I really grinded away on the problems to the extent that I finished a lot of the preparation, about a month or two out from the competition. And then I sort of just tried to keep going, but there wasn't really more questions to do. So I wasn't training like the same mental muscles, as well. And then when the competition actually came, and I look back through some of the problems, I realized that like, I sort of couldn't do them will kind of remember some of the things that I easily could remember before. So it's about finding the balance between like the right timing, and the right preparation. Jamie Beaton: 27:48 Very well said, very thoughtful. Okay, now dig into this. One thing about the Ico both the final round, and the selection that existed within New Zealand you described is that you go on these kind of, you know, week long, multi day long type activities, and, you know, there's social time, there's dinner time, etc. Now, when I'm approaching something that's quite high stakes, for me, I'm often super focused on on bed, so you know, whether it be the exam or you know, key interview, often I won't, you know, eat the morning a fair assessment, to keep me even sharper. And, you know, I'm really not so pumped about any kind of like socializing or anything that will distract me from ultimately the high stakes, you know, mission, I have a hit. So what's your attitude? When you go to these kind of environments? Can you sort of, you know, socialize in a chill way? No, you've got an exam tomorrow? Or do you get yourself quite wound up into quite a high performance mindset? How do you kind of sit on that spectrum? Ben Zhang: 28:46 Yeah, I think I'm really a mixture of both, I think and then ucln selection camp, I really was sort of like anti social kept to myself just studied the whole time. And like, in the end at work, but it wasn't, it didn't make the candle pleasant experience. And I think, learning from that I made the international experience, I really focused on like connecting with other people, there were still people at the international competition, who just like didn't want to talk to anyone, they really just wanted to go back to their rooms and study, you know, they were bringing the books with them on excursions to like the different tourist places, and they were reading as they were going. And I think that's the two different approaches. I don't think necessarily last minute studying will help much. It's more about, like you said, getting into the right mindset. And I guess everyone has different ways of doing that. And I think my way is really just trying to relax and getting on top of my emotions for something important or high stakes. And sometimes that's like, hanging out with other people and like relaxing. I think I want to read a guide that a few x McLean's people have made of the chemistry Olympiad. And the final one was like, you know, before the final camp selection exams, opponents like relax, have fun. And this person was like, you know, I always play my friend and at game of table tennis, and I beat him that morning before the exam. So I was feeling pretty good before the exam going in. So I think I always take that as an inspiration. Jamie Beaton: 30:13 I like it, you kind of do your preparation, get into high intensity state and sort of relax right before and kind of put those butterflies at ease as you get into that game state. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. Now, we talked a lot about the chemistry Olympiad. Let's switch gears now to the international biology Olympiad. One thing I should say is it's quite rare. And I see you know, many of the world's smartest kids from many different countries who are really offering the top of their game. But it's rare to see you know, one person really succeed in two different Olympiads and two consecutive years. And I think the reason for this is that often the level of mastery you need in one domain is so high that you just can't specialize in two different Olympians. So I guess first question, and why did you decide to go off for the biology Olympiad? And and sort of have have both Islam kids versus focusing on one? And I guess what was it about your preparation or your mindset that let you kind of, you know, 60 to not just one but both is Olympiads. Ben Zhang: 31:08 Yeah, I think the real reason why I did the Biology Olympiad is quite, it's quite funny, because the Chemistry Olympiad told me that I couldn't compete again, because I'd won a medal. And that was just the policy of the New Zealand Chemical Olympiad Trust. And I was like, okay, that's fine. I guess I'll find something else to do. And at the same time, I was looking into summer, Northern Hemisphere summer opportunities, like the London International Youth Science Forum, which I also ended up doing right off the Biology Olympiad, fortunately. But I think it was really like my parents, like, oh, like you're interested in medicine, and like biology is great, and you're taking biology, like, there's this biology olympiad, you should, like, look into it. And like see, I was like, at that point, I was like, okay, whatever. Like, let's, let's have a go through this exam. And I think I did the first round exam, I must say, I did not do that. Well, in the first round I got in, but the exam was not to fly. And then afterwards, it was more of like, just studying the material which again, like chemistry Olympiad, you got you have the summer to study the material, they send you a textbook, and essentially had the mantra is just memorize the textbook, which was really interesting. Because like before, then I have haven't really had a lot of experience in formal biology, education. And I think biology is different in that. This there's a real disconnect between high school biology, education, biology, education and college because the and even the field as a whole now that I'm at a place where I see research being carried out. It's really going from memorization, qualitative description, gross anatomy into the more quantitative analytical problem solving, the shift, and the great up biology Olympiad, the style of questions as well, you'll see, you'll see like, if you look at problems from 10 years ago, it's like, name this one like structure in the kidney. And then now it's like, has a graph from a scientific paper about renal function and answer these three questions about the features of the study. And I think that's really just representative of where biology is moving. And I think I found that really, really interesting. I have really more interested in thinking and problem solving, doing all that as opposed to just rote memorization, which apparently New Zealand has a really nice add that New Zealand kids like we can't really compare to like kids from like China or the US in like rote medical, like the Russians and rote memorization. But apparently, New Zealand does quite well in the international biology olympiads, because we have kids that based on our education system was really, really good at critical thinking good at analyzing data good at interpreting new things. So that's the nature of that. And I think because there was such an emphasis on interpretation and problem solving, as opposed to just content like math, or chemistry or physics laws, I think I was able to do quite well just because I had a really solid foundation and like problem solving, that had a really strong work ethic and be able to do the problems and getting their basic level of foundation down. But after getting that basic level foundation down, it was more just like really critical thinking. Jamie Beaton: 34:19 Well said and what will be some of the key differences in preparation process for ICS IBO so if you're a student sitting here in high school, you're 15 years old, thinking about which of these two areas to go down? How would you to determine kind of what fork in the road to choose? Which Olympiads right for who? Any thoughts on that one? Ben Zhang: 34:36 Yeah, it really comes down to personal preference because both of these things will require you to spend a lot of time and a lot of energy just doing one particular thing or in one particular area. So you really want to make sure you you do enjoy doing it or else it will be an absolute drag. As you can imagine, like if you just are doing something that you're not enjoying, it's just not going to be worth the time no matter what Going to achieve. So I think really finding like, what you enjoy out of the content isn't like the satisfaction of solving a particular problem has a little aside, I remember while studying, this is for the International Olympiad, they, each year they publish like a set of practice problems to all the contestants internationally, to get them prepared for the type of questions that you'll see on the international competition. And there was just this one really, really, really, really difficult question that I just couldn't understand. And like the, the tutors in New Zealand couldn't understand either my friends, my teachers school couldn't understand. I was just sitting there thinking I couldn't do it. It was like the late afternoon, I just had lunch, I was sleepy. So I just like sat back in my chair and basically had a nap. And when I woke up from the nap, like, for some reason, it just all came clear to me and I just solved it in like five minutes. I was like, Wow, it was a very interesting formative, whatever you want to call it experience. I think that's what's really makes it enjoyable, which is being able to solve these problems that just seems so impossible and so, but like sometimes the solutions actually really like beautiful and delicate. Jamie Beaton: 36:08 I love that that brain blast, that inspiration, that's good. And I guess that speaks to kind of being in that headphone mindset as well. You know, it took some time off you you were sitting on that couch relaxing there, bam, hit you. So let's transition now we've spoken a lot about kind of how you master these two really pretty high stakes Olympiads and really thrived in both of them. And I guess the alchemy really stands out about your academic record in high school is, you know, you're able to get into a premier scholarship not once but twice, you're able to top the country. And you know, basically all your core subjects Kim physics bio English Lit. So I want to take a bit of a deep dive into some of the tactics you would give a student around consistency and exams, you know, what are some of the classic things you do to make sure that you know, morning, afternoon, Monday, Wednesday, Friday,you know, back to back, whatever you're on your game? And what is it about your mindset, your preparation, walk me through how Ben Zang prepares for these exams? Ben Zhang: 37:03 Yeah, I think the most important thing, right, like superstitions aside, whatever, I have a bunch but like how well they work. I'm a skeptic. I don't believe in any of that. But I still do it. I think the most important thing is just being really well prepared, right, like with the good thing about Cambridge. So the thing that I love about Cambridge is you can find paseos online, you can ask your teachers will pass papers, they have access to like unstarted past papers. And that's the most important thing. Because these exams, they're really designed to test the key learning criterias in the syllabus, and there's only so many ways that they can do it. So when you do these papers, you're going to reach a point where you have seen essentially every single iteration of a problem that they can give you and in the office that they throw a wrench into, chances are you're going to be better prepared anyways than the rest of the people at handling this wrench. So I remember in my Yeah, a letter. And so I was doing as physics. And it was just a really, really difficult answer because it's short answer paper. And like, people were struggling, and I thought I struggled. But it turns out that because I had done essentially every single paper in the past 10 years, I was able to do quite well and actually surprised myself by getting top in New Zealand that year. Like I was like, What is going on? I thought I did awfully, but apparently, that's still better than what other people did. So really, if you have the preparation in place, you shouldn't be nervous at all. Because even if you see something that you've never seen before, chances are, you already know how to solve the problems. And I think a lot of the times people really just go into these exams, they underprepared. They haven't done all the available revision material to them, given to them. And then they're struggling. And they wondering, Okay, what else could I have done? And the answer is, you probably should have just revised more and came up with a better revision schedule where you're spacing out past papers, as you go. The same goes for scholarship exam scholarship, also released like the past seven years or something ridiculous like that, for each exam, so you have access to just so many problems. They have like a textbook with even more problems, or like stuff that you could study. So there really is no excuse to not study the material that you're given, obviously, if you have like five exams, and you're gonna have to prioritize on the exams that are coming up, or the old subjects that you're less familiar with. But other than that, I think revision is really the most important thing. But I will say with one caveat, it's like you shouldn't be doing pass papers. If you do not have mastery of the material, right? Like if you're doing pass it around, you don't buy like 50% of the problems, then that's just wasting your time and you could better spend that time first learning the material and once you've actually learned how to solve these types of problems like know the material itself, then you move on to pots and pans. And also a lot of the times you can learn theory as you go but like that might not be the most helpful thing for everyone but yeah. Jamie Beaton: 40:00 I guess the other thing that I would say here is because you studied so rigorously for chemistry and biology Olympiad, your base of content is going to be so high that there's probably a lot of synergies we're getting across these different fields. So, you know, your, your deep expertise in chemistry is naturally going to help you nail the scholarship exam. I found, for example, in my case, you know, one of my strings is English literature. So, because I put a lot of time into English literature, I could do English language thinking skills, General paper business, that is economics, like, you know, things like Media Studies and geography, because it all use the same core set of skills. So I think the other thing that probably helped you here is just that muscle memory built in the natural sciences. It's just really giving you this kind of edge across all the different exam formats, even though scholarship and a levels, you know, testing some different concepts sometimes. Ben Zhang: 40:43 Yeah, exactly. Well said. Jamie Beaton: 40:45 Okay. Now, to dig into this a bit deeper. Every year, I think it's true that most kids don't do the preparation required to get through all the past exams. And so that's a really good point, I think super accurate for most people, that's just something that they need to do. But at the highest level of competition, right? Like take the top five kids that McLean's, the top couple of kids at King's, etc. And these are New Zealand schools, for reference, you know, everyone will probably have done all the past papers. So at that point, what do you think differentiates you know, different students? You know, what, differentiate sort of the 93% in A Level physics from a 97? Or 98, for example? And what is it that kind of gets you over the line? Ben Zhang: 41:21 that's a that's a great question. Honestly, if I know the answer, I would start my own tutoring agency, right. Like, it's like it's, it's, it's a, if you think about it, it might be a statistics problem. Once you reach the edge of the curve, like you have some certain percentage of getting a certain grade, and you can study and it'll narrow the range of possible grades that you'll get. But you can never do anything with certainty right, I guess. Other than the general exam advice of like, check your answers as you go, like, like find different ways of like, seeing if you have right like really sanity checking your answers like, do your answers make sense? Are you solving for the mass of a person and you get like 500 kilograms, right, like stuff like that, and stuff like that, I would say, like, at the very top, you're sort of getting kids who are really, really similar, and that grade distributions are honestly probably due to chance. And this is something that we see in like interviews, and like when you're accepting people for different clubs, because I'm on like, the Board of a few different clubs. And we'll interview people. And we're like, there is no useful way of being able to differentiate these top candidates. But we're going to have to make some arbitrary selection. I think that's what I'm saying one person has the absolute top mock, essentially does. So it really, I think at the top, there is no way of knowing that you're going to get the tama guy very surprised that I was able to get a top mock now that i think i think they actually, I'm not sure if this is true, this could be has to be me sparing heresy, but, um, say actually, we'll go back and look at the papers of kids who get like at the very, very top and look at the quality of your answers, as opposed to just the absolute pure grade, even in the natural sciences. Not sure how true that is. That could be the case. I'm not sure. Yeah. Jamie Beaton: 43:18 Interesting. Interesting. Okay. The other thing that jumped out to me about your exam results was your English literature performance. Because, you know, obviously, you're a master of Natural Sciences, but you also topped the country in English Lit, which is, you know, really quite impressive, because it's rare to see somebody that's strong in STEM and also humanities, generally speaking. So if you compare your preparation for these natural sciences, how would you go about preparing for English Lit? And is this something you're consistently good at? You think you had a really good exam, you're naturally strong in that area, as well kind of walk me through where that performance in English literature came from? Ben Zhang: 43:52 I think, yeah, the results in English, English literature, is really due to classic overcompensation. Like I was really bad at English, through intermediate and early High School. And that was an area that I really, really dedicated a lot of time studying. In fact, there was at one point, I think I was studying like more in English and reading the text and annotating and really understanding what's going on more than like, I was studying the science, it's just because like, that was the area that I knew I was the weakest that it's getting to a point where like, in English literature, you have like your set text, right? Like I could essentially just pull quotes out of my brain, I can, if you give me a quote that I would know exactly where it is, because I've read the book, like three or four times and I have everything annotated based on themes and whatever. So I'm like, like during orchestra practice, like whenever I have some spare time, I'll like whip out my book or whip out my pen, and I'll start like annotating good notes. And really, it just comes down to practice. And it's sort of practice that I've led up a little over college, which I really need to get back into. It's just being able to write because the thing about writing is if you don't practice it, if you don't write it your writing would just deteriorate really, really quickly scary quickly. So I was essentially writing practice essays, practice paragraphs planning essays, like I was writing like a practice paragraph a week, and I was getting my English teacher to grade it, just sort of like turning up to the class and be like, Hey, I wrote a practice out, I can give you some feedback on this. And I was doing that, like the exam is in like December, I was starting to write practice paragraphs in like, May, April, right, and it just carries through until the end of the year. So it's really a long process of like, wanting to get master of English, I also found it really fascinating. I do love reading. And I do love the themes that we discuss in these texts. It's just something that doesn't really come as natural to me as the sciences. Jamie Beaton: 45:46 Now hearing you speak about this kind of intensive preparation, you know, study in May for exams coming up at the end of the year, for example. First of all, I think I think back to this classmate of mine from Harvard called Jason Dong. He was at Westlake in New Zealand, he was the highest achieving student there. And he won a scholarship to go to UWC, I think world college somewhere for his last two years scoring an almost perfect IB score. And I remember him telling me about his approach to Cambridge exams, because he's got a number of top in New Zealand awards, I think, at IG level. And he had basically already been through the whole course, by the time school actually even started in February, right. So he literally was sitting in class, and he'd already seen it all, it was just all revision for him. And when I first heard that, I was pretty mind blown, because I like to think of myself back then as a pretty intense academic student. But the idea of kind of getting through content a year in advance was, you know, was pretty intense. But I guess what I see consistently is, if you plot a graph of academic achievement, and then work ethic, at least some high school, it's almost all the case that the kids that have the highest shading within any school or country are often those who are also putting in the hardest work, you know, the idea that there's this, you know, super genius kid who just rolls into exams and bangs out perfect scores, you know, it's just a bit of a mess. So, to what extent do you think you know, the highest performance in high school academics? is, you know, really a function of hard work? Or do you think there a lot of other variables like genetics or, you know, other factors that come into this, like your parents background? Well, how would you decompose kind of high achievement if it was like a regression equation, for example? Ben Zhang: 47:19 Yeah, I think it's really yeah, the most important, if you look at the factors that influence that the most important is for sure, hard work. And I would say like with that, you have to be in an environment where you're able to spend time doing this hard work, right? Like, we talk a lot about equity and education. And some of the times like, you might be in a situation where like, you have to hold a part time job, you have to look after your siblings, you have to like, do housework, and you're not in an environment where you can have access to this hard work. And I think that's also really important. And that's why we talk a lot about giving kids equal education opportunities, and really increasing the quality of education, because like, if you are able to give everyone at least the opportunity to do their best work, then I think everyone will be able to do what they're really good at. Right? Like they're gonna be able to do something that they're proud of, and an area that they're really interested in. And I mean, I don't think we're there yet, obviously, with all the inequality that we have. And it really comes down to a function of like, hard work, but also access. And I think if we have those two, then really, kids will be able to perform at a really high level. Jamie Beaton: 48:36 Very true, very true. Okay, now, let's move a little bit to kind of college decisions, you know, coming out of high school with all these different, you know, wonderful accolades, you know, you're going to be a very competitive candidate for you know, the world's top schools, MIT loves Olympiad medalists who tick these boxes, you know, Stanford, loves to see people that are kind of pushing the intellectual vitality, ie. taking things outside of school. And then Harvard loves to see just consistent execution, you know, dux every year, premier scholar early, you know, national level accolades and academics, as you're really taking a lot of these different boxes. So why did you ultimately choose Harvard, particularly given your natural science focus? What was it about that particular school that resonated with you? You know, would you make the same choice again, how do you think about that? Ben Zhang: 49:21 Yeah, I mean, I think I didn't put that much thought into I didn't really like, analyze too much into it. Harvard's obviously an amazing school. I think, talking to people from the US and talking to people from McLean's who've gone there. I learned about like the wonderful research opportunities, not to say that there's a lot of wonderful research opportunities everywhere, and different schools, I think it really comes down to just I want it to be somewhere really far from home just to be in a completely different environment. And Boston is sort of like a really old town. It's like red brick, I'm sure you'll know. It's really really different from us in every single sense. The winters are cold and there's a lot of snow it's just very northeast us and bringing in guys yeah, it was like that like a few weeks ago the lease was still four colors I had like a few photoshoots my friends it was lovely and I think that's really what sort of cemented my decision is just essentially like the strength of the school the strength of its research on the sort of people that I would get exposed to as well as I think financial aid is like a big factor like hobbies essentially can bank anyone attending which is nice and also the Northeast environment. I think it was it was it's obviously like kind of tough because it gets really cold and really dark in the winter time but ultimately I'm grateful for the people that I've met and the experiences that I've had. Jamie Beaton: 50:47 Well said, and wondering Harvard Square you know after the 2am problem situations and stuff. What are some of the favorite spots you like to go on campus? I definitely love Pinocchio's for example, Philippe's as though some of the, you know, Insomnia Cookies. Also that was that that was a classic. What are some of your go to spots on Harvard Square food? Ben Zhang: 51:04 Yeah, yeah, I know, Pinocchio's definitely, I think tasty burger. Jamie Beaton: 51:10 Still open to 4am is it? Ben Zhang: 51:12 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's one of the only places that like cuz I'm not too big of a fan of like Mexican food. So like Philippe's phase. didn't really have that much of it to to me. So like tasty, but it was really like when my friends and I would go, we would reward ourselves after like, a satisfying piece that session. So yeah, they recently opened up a kung fu tea in the square. That opens pretty late as well. Wow, that's cool. Yeah, back when Jamie Beaton: 51:37 I was there, basically, there was tasty burger up into for him. And then I hop as well, which was, which is like an American International House of Pancakes place. And so I hope we'd go if we were really desperate, but generally tasty. Was the was the winner? Yeah, very good spots around them. Okay. And, um, I guess one of my last kind of questions for you been a lot of students, I see they go hard in high school, they get into the dream colleges. Anyway, when they get to college, they take the foot off the gas a little bit, because they've already sort of, you know, achieved a big milestone for them. And they no longer feel the same kind of burning impetus to keep keep driving. But if I think about what you've been able to do at Harvard, you know, you're working for the broad Research Institute, you've got an almost perfect GPA in the natural sciences, I guess, what keeps you going? And particularly how have you maintained that academic GPA? And how do you balance difficult classes with, you know, classes that you can sit down? And for example, walk me through some of your psychology and decision making at Harvard? Ben Zhang: 52:33 I would say it's that inconsistent had best my doesn't make so yeah, is that a lot of like back and forth deciding what I want to do? And who I want to be in that kind of question as you would going through like a big transition in your life? I think, my approach freshmen, yes, I did a really, really difficult intro life science, computational biology, it's like this comprehensive course called lsst. And it actually took up two class slots, and you do it for the whole year. So that's sort of like four courses, essentially gone your whole year. And so that was really intense, but also really rewarding. And I met some of the people that I'm closest with on campuses across some very grateful for that. But I think I also have learnt about my own limits, like in my family, obviously was doing was really difficult class, I was doing x files, which is Jamie Beaton: 53:21 Expositry Writing, that's painful. Ben Zhang: 53:23 I did not enjoy, I was also in a really, really difficult section talking. So I'm a PATH now, which is paired advising fellow and fellow which is what Harvard does. It's like a program where upperclassmen students will mentor the first year students, and speaking to some of my pet fees for first year doing xlarge. Like, it's just such a wide range of expository writing experiences, and I definitely got the short end of the stick with mine. My preceptor was really, really mean writer, and he would leave like really harsh comments on like, objectively Alright, writing and, um, and it was just very painful my first year adjusting for that. And as well as taking like two writing courses. There's a lot of papers, a lot of like, 3am writing sessions. And I think that really burnt me out a lot at the start of the first and so I think I really had to learn about how much I was able to handle my plagues. I was also doing like a whole suite of extracurricular activities that took up a lot of my time. And I think at the end of the day, with, with our DOS, people taking their foot off the gas, I think people's priorities change, and I think that's fundamentally okay. I don't think anyone ever will fault themselves or for other people for like, letting themselves relax in college. And I think that's along with the sentiment that you see, like you still have. It's almost this sort of sentiment where like, if you're still really really cutthroat and hotter in college, then it's just it's just not a great time because you're at a stage where you really should be working for something that you enjoy and you should be working for like specific goals right like if you want to work in like investment banking or consulting Yes, you go hard for those positions, but you should also know what you actually enjoy. And really value, like a whole suite of other things that make you who you are, as opposed to just keep doing things for the sake of doing things I I personally know, people who are like that, who are still just doing things really, really aggressively, and I don't see them at all, and they look miserable. And I'm really glad that I am not one of those people. So I think that there definitely needs to be a balance, especially when you're in an environment like this, where you have so many options to overwork yourself, is to realize that you don't have to, which is really valuable. And I think I do that, and balancing my classes like I do do like really difficult classes. But I think in choosing my concentration or major, I really made the decision of doing something that gives me the most flexibility, and really reduces the amount of required courses that I have to take. So I do have that flexibility to be like, Oh, I want to challenge myself with a difficult class or Oh, I just want to cruise and take some like more chilled requirements, for example. And I think finding that balance has been really helpful. And it's really helped my mental health a lot as well. Jamie Beaton: 56:05 Yeah, well said, when I was at Harvard, I really was... Ben Zhang: 56:09 Were you one of the hard ones Jamie? Jamie Beaton: 56:11 I think what you said earlier about how at college, you define what really motivates you and find that path you really care about, that really hit me pretty early on. So I wasn't kind of chasing like the four oh, GPA, you know, just taking easy classes to get a high, you know, high grade, I would probably say I have a slightly more respect for that approach. In that, I kind of get it why some people do this, like if they want to work in banking, if they just, you know, nail, the high GPA, you know, will open a lot of doors, if they want to get to law school, the game rewards a high GPA. So I understand why people do this. And I definitely don't hate it. But my approach was very much to have a GPA target in mind, and then take really challenging classes that I enjoyed that challenge me, but also mix in some other ones that you know, were a bit easier. So some of my favorite classes were things like, you know, negotiation, things like business in China ethical reasoning, I even took like a global health secondary, which was just, you know, a piece of interest. So I would definitely say I found that balance. And I was putting a lot of time to finance like, you know, stock stock investing for a firm called tiger. And then I was closest board and crimson. So I think I found my priorities, fortunately, pretty early on in college, and I really was quite dedicated to them. So I cut out a lot of random extracurriculars and focused on on a handful. And I think broadly, the point that I'd make is, in high school, kind of the objective function, or the goal you're optimizing for is a lot more clear, you kind of need to know your academics get your good score, you know, work out, you know, you're really interesting extracurriculars. But basically, there's a pretty clear narrative, you've got to go down, when you get to college, you know, you just have so many choices, you just have to start making those big life calls. And I think the people that get stuck in an arms race of just chasing the bank and get the vet or know what's next are probably not gonna be that happy down the line. So I think I really do believe that insight you have which is in college, find the path of impact, find the path of meaning and you know, start to kind of carve out your own trajectory and sense of, you know, long term goal that's going to make you happy. I think that that is definitely what I've seen work for well, definitely to wrap things up in. We have a lot of ambitious kids listening to this podcast around the world, you have a very inspiring journey. Obviously. Any final words your impart for our listeners? Ben Zhang: 58:16 Yeah, I think to to kids who are still in high school, really just prioritize the thing that you're good at, know what you're good at early on, and really try and do really, really well at it because I think that puts you ahead of like a lot of other people if you know there is something or a few things that you can do better than others, then just make that your thing and really go hard at it and believe in yourself. Jamie Beaton: 58:40 Well said Ben, love it. Thanks so much for the discussion today. Ben Zhang: 58:43 Thank you.

Ep #14 Figuring Out Your Post-School Path

🗓 NOV 30, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host: 0:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with Australian student Hannah Ahn. At 18 years of age, Hannah is the founder of y compass, a platform designed to help you make more informed decisions about the future. We chat all about the changing workforce, and the importance of being okay with not knowing what you want to do after high school. Let's chat with Hannah Ahn. Hannah, tell us a little bit about yourself, perhaps your age and where you are calling in from today. Hannah Ahn: 0:48 So I'm Hannah, I'm 18 years old, and I am calling in from Sydney, Australia. So I am a recent high school graduate. So I graduated last year. And I'm currently taking a gap year at the moment. So my gap year I've done a few things such as interned at a company called Canva. So they're a large startup company in Australia. And also I've started an email newsletter called YCompass, which is focused on getting young people to figure out more about what they're passionate about, and what kind of careers they want to pursue in the future, and how that achieves their own film it. So we provide things such as like job opportunities, and careers advice, and also information on new and upcoming industries that you can kind of get excited about and learn more about. During high school. I also started my own company cardiaca, which connected high school students to quality work experience opportunities, and I was also heavily involved in extracurriculars, such as being co captain and also doing a lot of different things in my community. Also going along with the challenges of being in final year of school. So yeah. Podcast Host: 1:48 Wow. Yeah. So it's been a busy last couple of years for you. That's awesome about the Canva internship. But I think we're we're really looking to talk about is your work in the career space, because I think for young students right now, people who are in year 9, 10, 11, 12, or that kind of 14 to 18 age range, I think a lot of people are a little bit stressed about what the future of employment looks like, particularly post COVID and online world. And I saw some documentaries recently, where a lot of arts students were, you know, stressing because they were thinking, Well, does the world really need art students at the moment? Yeah, it's quite a stressful time for a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons. But I think it's fantastic that someone who is I guess, the youth, right, an 18 year old, yeah, is feeling as though that they can have a say in that career space. Because so often in the careers conversation, it's usually teenagers taking advice from people who are significantly older, who have been there before and done that before. But now the world is changing so fast that even someone who is you know, 10 or 15 years older, may have had a very different experience in a career path than someone who is a teenager now. So can you talk to us a little bit about what made you get more heavily involved in the careers and decision making space? And why that's so important for teenagers to be really involved with? Hannah Ahn: 3:09 Yeah, for sure. Um, so I guess what kind of involved me in this space was really just my own kind of questioning and confusion on what I wanted to do. After high school, I felt that what I was like what I was learning during school, wasn't that relevant, and I wasn't quite sure what I was going to do with what I was being taught in classes. And so I kind of had this whole thought where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do in the future. And I just kind of dove into going to a lot of events and figuring out and talking to a lot of people and trying to get advice from different places to figure it out and kind of set my own, I guess, compass. But what I wanted to do in the future. So me going to the entire experience, I felt that, like similar to what you've said before, Alex, just in terms of the whole frustration, where it's like a lot of this advice I'm getting from much older people who give me kind of things like, Oh, just do whatever you're passionate about, and all these kind of generic kind of pieces of advice, which may be helpful to some people, but also for me at that stage didn't really help me in my journey. So I felt that the current advice that was getting, particularly from places like careers advisors and websites on career weren't that helpful. And I thought we could do something better to actually get people a better careers, education, and also think more about their future. And the reason why I think that's just so important is because, well, it's kind of you spent 80,000 hours of your life working. You might as well make the most of it, do something you enjoy. And I felt that I also knew a lot of people who were in jobs that they weren't enjoying, they weren't getting a lot of fulfillment and I thought what can we do to change this? Podcast Host: 4:46 I really love how you reflected I guess and didn't take phas value the advice of do something you're passionate about because that is so often what teenagers are told. It's just me like just Follow your own path, just, you know, follow your heart and this kind of stuff. When you heard that kind of advice, what was your reaction to it? And how did you feel when people were telling you? Oh, hang out? Like, don't stress? Yeah, do something you love? Like, what was your emotional response to that? Hannah Ahn: 5:16 Um, I think for me, when I first got that advice, initially, it was kind of like, well, I don't know what that is, right? I haven't explored enough. I don't know what my passion is. And kind of, to some extent, was a bit disempowering in that all these people are telling me do something you're passionate about, but I didn't know. But this kind of Oh, my do this. I'm, like, I guess put on a pedestal I do have passion was for myself. And it was hard to kind of figure that out. And it just kind of led to even more confusion. So I think that kind of advice really empowered me. And I think a lot of people also when they hear that advice, it's quite confusing. It doesn't necessarily help them in any direction to what they want to do. Podcast Host: 5:56 Yeah, so it is empowering is I guess, not the way that you want high school students to feel when they're looking at their career path. So yeah, what are you trying to do with YCompass? What kind of advice are you providing in that newsletter that you think is different from the more generic Find your passion type of advice? Hannah Ahn: 6:13 Yeah. So I think, why can't this kind of an underlying theme or idea that we come up and try to push forward is that career fulfillment doesn't come from doing something you're passionate about, like, sure a lot of people do find passion, like, some kind of passion that they can pursue as a career. But for the vast majority of people, that's a bit hard to come by, and also even harder to get paid for. And so I think what we kind of tried to push forward is this idea that group filament comes from having high expertise in a field, and also being able to make an impact. So I guess without bias, we try to push that forward. And also, so that's through our careers advice newsletter, so we send out three different letters a week. And we also have our emerging industries kind of thing. So it's like, you also can't find your passion or things that you're interested in, if you're not exploring different things. So we try to educate, we try to inform people of like new and interesting problem spaces that are arising, that people should be paying attention to. And maybe hopefully, something will click, and they'll kind of deep dive into one of these areas. And then last of all, we also have our kind of job opportunities and opportunities that people can kind of find things that they're interested in and get employment and explore what type of work is like, Podcast Host: 7:25 One thing that I want to go back to what you said was, you didn't see what you were learning in school, and how that could be relevant to the careers that you might be interested in, in the future. And I think that disconnect is such a, you know, that's not just you, that's a lot of people. I remember sitting in math class being like, why are we learning this? And my math teacher? That's like, Where am I use this? I think it was like, you know, something to do with tangents, and circuito, or whatever it was, Hannah Ahn: 7:50 Yeah, Podcast Host: 7:50 It's like, well, if you want to be a maths teacher, you can use this, like it was so narrow, right? And it just didn't seem to have any relevance to the world or the interest that I particularly had. So what do you think students should be doing when they're at school and they might be good at subjects, but they still haven't found their passion. How important do you think it is to keep looking outside of that school bubble? and outside of the subjects per se, and more kind of real life applications of subject might have? Hannah Ahn: 8:19 I think your example with the whole math class, so real, they're just saying, you said like, I literally remember asking my teacher like, Why weren't learning Pythagoras theorem? And they're like, Oh, well, if you want to be an architect, blah, blah, blah. But to be frank, no one no class probably is studying architecture or anything, right? So I think in terms of your question, just like how people should go about finding, like, I guess, careers that they're interested in, I definitely think the outside of the classroom is your best bet. Of course, there are areas where maybe you're interested in biology, like what you're learning in biology is relevant during school. But most of the time, that's not necessarily the case. And I guess the reason why that is, is just because schools don't necessarily, at least from my experience, teach it in a way that shows relevance to what's happening in the now like, what's the newest tech, what's happening in the news and all this sort of stuff? So I think in terms of exploration, I think I'd really urge students to see what type of things on the internet engaged them and interest them, what type of areas, maybe in tech, or in policy or anything like that, because I guess, like you can find anything you would want to know, if you just do a quick Google search. And I think just like dive into your curiosity, right. So if you're interested in tech, what type of areas and tech other, which kind of, I guess, make you pay the most attention to and just like, start from there, like see if there are any events New Year, whether that be online and see if there are any experts that you can talk to in that space, or even just students that are studying that because like just reaching out and having the initiative to kind of explore outside of school is gonna put you in a better position to know more about the things that you're interested in and see, this is something I actually want to work in. Podcast Host: 10:01 Yeah, I think a lot of students get kind of trapped in that school bubble. And they see only what's around them in the classroom and what their classmates are interested in. And it can be quite limiting in some respects, where I've seen other students who have gone way beyond school and they don't even think of themselves as a student anymore. They say, Oh, I'm a researcher, like I chatted to one student on episode two, who was a medical researcher. She's 15. Yeah. And she's gone. She's like, yeah, I go to school. But first and foremost, I'm a medical researcher or an innovator. And so it's that kind of mindset. And that kind of mindset really pushes the boundaries of school. And it goes very, very far beyond that, which I think is a very good advice. And there's obviously some great communities online, whether that be on LinkedIn, or some other student communities where there are like 14 year olds looking at AI, and there are other students looking at machine learning. And I think a lot of students kind of think, Oh, that's a university thing, or that's like a professional career thing. Obviously, like you started a company, or you started yakka, when you're in year 10, was it? Hannah Ahn: 11:05 Ah, yes, so, round year 10 or 11. Podcast Host: 11:08 yes. So what was that experience? Like? Because that's, I guess, one of the things we're talking about, right, where you could have the idea, but just sit on the idea, because you think, Oh, well, I'm only in year 10. I'll wait until a couple years later, before I actually go out and make this a reality. But what made you kind of take that idea to reality when you were only 10. Hannah Ahn: 11:27 Um, so I guess what made me push that idea into reality is just kind of the realization that the barriers to starting something, having initiative or working on something you care about is a lot lower nowadays. And the reason being is just because if you have an idea whenever you can set up like a website for it, and probably like an hour, two hours, for free. And so I think I just had that realization, and also that, I guess, the thought that if I wanted to do something that I gained a lot of fulfillment out, or I cared about, no one else was gonna force that upon me. And I had to kind of make that happened myself, it's kind of like the idea that, like, no one is gonna really save me through this, and there's no teacher, there's no one who's gonna help me kind of go through this process on this, I have the initiative to start it. And like, that's just kind of, I think, something I've realized, like, it's just like eating off the university, no one is going to push you to do something that you really care about. So I think that's what made me involved. And also just like the idea of having a problem in the community that I really wanted to solve. Because if I didn't have the initiative, then no one else would also solve that problem. So I think that's kind of what urged me to start. Yeah. So yeah, Podcast Host: 12:40 Talk to me about that timeline between the idea and the website launch. So if you let's take Yakka for the example here, you're in year 10, which in Australia is the typical year where students go and do work experience, they go spend a week or so at a company doing filing or some other menial task, and hopefully they find a little bit, you know, they're working with a company where they're not just doing menial tasks. And I think that was the purpose of Yakka. Right, like to find purpose for meaningful work experience experiences. Is that the Yeah, premise? Right. And so it's obviously very relative to you or relevant to you just talk me through I guess, like, you've got the idea. What kind of research did you do? Who did you speak to? And what kind of decisions did you have to make before you were like, yep, this is something I really want to do, and actually no publish a website for. Hannah Ahn: 13:29 So I guess kind of the whole process was, when I was in year 10. I did work experience and I thought it was menial, I thought it was kind of crap. And I was just copying code the entire day, because I was at a software gaming kind of company. And so from that, I was like, well, this is like, really shit. So I kind of reached out to my friends and I started interviewing them. I was like, Hey, you did work experience? What did you think you didn't do at the expense? Why didn't you do it experience and I kind of did like a whole, I guess, problem diagnosis, see what was going on in the community, at least the student community at that moment. And then I also found someone who was really passionate about working on the problem as well. And so we kind of came together. And we're like, Okay, so this is problem, how can we go about solving it because we realize, like often talking to about 40 other students that they either found it really hard to find work experience, or the work experience they did. They were, like you said they were just filing papers, or they were buying coffee or something. And so what we did was, well, we kind of had the idea initially as like a student internship thing, rather than a work experience. But then we realized it was more about businesses like finding any value or finding ways to get value out of it. And that was only from reaching out to different companies and talking about their experiences as maybe like a CEO or an HR manager or whatever. Podcast Host: 14:48 Yeah, like people who have actually hosted work experience students before, which I have done as well. So I'm interested in your thought process of how you got the company's point of view as well. So talk to me a little bit more about that then how you went about Reaching out to them? Hannah Ahn: 15:02 Um, yeah, so I guess initially it was kind of I was talking to a lot of business owners that I knew personally as to why they didn't take work on work experience students. And I guess it was a lot of commonality in that. They found it hard to organize or when they did get work experience students over they weren't better not to do the students themselves or the businesses. And so it wasn't like a win win situation was more like just a flat out lose lose situation, right? Yeah. So we kind of was like, then I guess in terms of making my experience better, we need to provide some kind of framework that's like the conclusion Me and bhagavathy, my co founder came to. So after that, we kind of, I guess, brainstormed a lot of different models for how we can make work experience more meaningful for students, and also the employer. Because if the employees weren't getting any value of it, then they had no incentive to actually take on students. So that's kind of the whole process that we went about. And we kind of landed on this idea that in order to give students and businesses value, give a student like a problem, like a business problem for them to solve. That way, they're practicing some enterprise skills. So they're actually researching into the problem to try to devise a solution. And then they also get to pitch it back to I guess, maybe a board or the business of the last day of their work experience. So it's kind of just an intensive process for them to figure out and I guess, practice some entrepreneurial skills, in terms of how they can solve this business problem. And this is like, very applicable to when you're working as well. And at the end of it, we found that when we talked to a few employers, they got a lot of ideas. And they thought that the things that the students came up with were quite innovative and pretty interesting solutions. So yeah, Podcast Host: 16:43 okay, so it was creating that framework, what kind of framework does I mean, not to say you weren't a brilliant student already in your 10? But what kind of frameworks or ideas in terms of structuring work experience at a young Hana put together with egg about your name? Is that right? Yeah. And you put these frameworks together? Did you kind of bounce those ideas off anybody or like any other teachers get involved or career advisors potential? Hannah Ahn: 17:13 So I guess the main people that got involved in building our framework was, we actually tested a few before we landed on the thing that I just talked about, and we test it out what if like, a student shattered, like the CEO, or some team member in a business, and we actually test it out, we got some a student and a business to go through that process. And we realized at the end of it, we still had the problem where students business, they didn't really know what to do. And the student either just got bored throughout the entire week in the business was just like, well, now I just have this one student that I don't know. So we've tested out those models. And then we just kind of got some feedback and discussion with that business who went through that process. And realize, we need to find ways to facilitate the process more, give a bit more guidance, which is why we landed on the whole thing on giving a student a problem, a business problem to solve, and also trying to implement workshops in between the week. So how they can actually learn more about pitching or devising a solution to a problem and researching more of that problem. So yeah. Podcast Host: 18:16 Yeah, I think that's super relevant. And I think for our listeners around the world, if they don't have a structured where he experienced week, I think these lessons are still very applicable, particularly if they're looking to get, you know, whether it be a summer job or something like that, or a, you know, volunteer internship, whatever it might be within their high school experience. And that's like a highly sought after thing, right? You know, like as an extra curricular to be able to say that you spent a week or two weeks or whatever it might be, like a pretty legit company is like a big feather in your cap for a high school student. And I think one of the things that I experienced on my side, as someone who did have students come and work with me as it were, he experienced student number one, I always found that like, if a student knew about the company first, it was always a massive class, and you think that's a given, but some students rocked up and literally didn't know the first thing about what it is the company did or what Crimson did, yeah. And I was like, well, this is gonna be a long way, right? Whereas I had other kids come in, and we're like, bang, I've been following you guys on social media, like, I know exactly what you guys do. I know the areas that I think I can help you in. Like, yeah, let's chat, right. And then so in the first day or so, we were establishing you know, what this student or what value the student could provide within that first week, I guess, kind of we kind of came along to that idea as well. That's Yakkers framework, which is the student was asked to solve a business problem. And so like I had students work on, you know, what kind of presentation Do you think students would like to hear? I mean, you're that target market, right? 16, 17 year old who's about to go into university? We're talking about US, UK universities, and students like oh, yeah, well, I think students would really want to hear this, this and this. And I had students put together entire presentations and entire events that do really well. Right? Yeah, yeah. But it was like giving them I also think there's something to be said for companies who are looking to take on students for internships or for work experience, that you've got to give them some kind of legit responsibility. If they're just filing or coding or, you know, data entry, that kind of stuff, they're going to get bored. But if you like, involve them in some kind of level of responsibility, that certainly elevates the student's interest in what they're doing. And they're giving away like, oh, gosh, I feel like a staff member already. Right. You know, they really loved it, it was yes. And we ended up continuing some of those relationships ended up hiring one of the year 10s for like a six month period. So how did you get yakka? out to the public? And how did you roll it out to you know, schools and students and businesses. Hannah Ahn: 20:52 So kind of, I guess, initially, we tapped into our network in that we asked people who are now in school, to see if they'd be interested in the Work Experience Program. And then we also did a lot of social media and reached out via that kind of, as well as that we reached out to a lot of credit advisors. So we saw that we asked like, friends from other schools, if we could get in touch with their increase advisors. And so we have this whole kind of List of careers advisors that we could kind of reach out to about these, like experience opportunities. So I guess in terms of just finding our resources, finding, like the key people that would be able to kind of spread it spread that network effect in terms of sharing our business. Yeah. Podcast Host: 21:34 What about that experience and being involved in yakka, as that influenced what you're doing and why compass now, because you're continuing, you could have left the kind of that Korea space, obviously, like, you're still interested in how Korea is evolve, and how students come to that decision and their kind of transition from high school to university and beyond into employment. So how has that been a continuing journey for you, like is yakka, the first piece of that puzzle, and then it continues on or the two unrelated. Unknown: 22:07 So I definitely see it as kind of the first piece of the puzzle, just like a prototype in getting to learn more about this whole career space is going like taking a gap year, I still kept in touch with a lot of my friends in high school who have gone into university. And I've just definitely seen that the problem is so much like so prevalent, if not more in university. So I guess that's kind of what inspired me to keep pursuing this kind of like venture into the Christmas, just because I guess how I see it is that if people aren't doing things that they care about, or working in this space, I guess, we're kind of just seeing like a misallocation of, I guess, like you could call it resources or just like people not doing the things that I care about, we're just going to have like a massive effect on just economically. And they're like individually as well as people live in their own fulfillment and mental health. So I guess I kind of just explore more on like, how this problem is essentially becoming like bigger, particularly with COVID. And I guess that's what like, kept me going in terms of working in the creative space. Podcast Host: 23:15 What's been the initial response to YCompass? Unknown: 23:18 So I think the initial response has been pretty good in that. I think, what I found that a lot of people during high school, even though they have careers advisor and all that, and just from talking to some of my friends and people that have subscribed, that I don't actually know, they've been getting a lot of value from it in terms of getting advice that they've never heard before, or had been really helpful in terms of their career journey, whether that be through networking, or finding the things that they care about, and things that they want to work on. And that sort of stuff. And also just job opportunities and places that they can work. Podcast Host: 23:50 Do you think students put themselves under a lot of pressure, or they get pressure from external sources, whether they be parents or other friends or career advisors, those kind of people to make a decision, rather than to embrace, I guess, the indecision? Because I always find that students put themselves in a box or they point themselves in the direction just to say that they are, you know, that they do have direction. Yeah. And he kind of like gets people off their back. They're like, I'm gonna study medicine, you know, okay. Yeah, it's like, that's awesome. And internally, the kids like, I don't know why I'm saying this to people, but I'm just saying it right to kind of get people off my back. I think it's kind of like a very cultural thing more broadly. But is that something that you tried address in, in YCompass at all? Or is that something that you've found is an issue that people I guess, are worried about embracing the indecision? Hannah Ahn: 24:42 So I guess, as of yet, in our newsletters, we haven't like, immediately addressed that kind of point. It is something that I definitely realized. In fact, I wrote like an entire blog post about it on my own personal website. And just like the whole idea that I think the whole question of like, what do you want to do in the future? What do you want to do when you grow up? I think it's a completely relevant and in my opinion, like, I guess, this empowering question as well, in that, I do definitely agree that people do feel this rush, oh, I gotta find a job or find some kind of work by the age of like 18 or 21, or some arbitrary number. Whereas that's not necessarily the case. And I think it's something that I definitely want to address in the future with like, on this, it's just that like, sitting in that uncertainty, can actually be quite serendipitous, in that you get to explore more, and you're not necessarily trapped by this one idea that you decided you wanted to be when you're 16 or something. Podcast Host: 25:37 Yeah, I think that's a very, very important point. For students who are getting that question, and who do feel that pressure to make a decision? What advice would you give them? Hannah Ahn: 25:49 Yeah, kind of what I would advise them is that you don't have to feel this pressure to specialize or pick your major or your degree at your current age. because realistically, you probably haven't explored a lot of the different things out there that you might be more interested in, or that piques your curiosity. So I think what I'd recommend them to do is kind of think of, I guess, the next five or 10 years, just like a period to explore, become a generalist, like figure out the different things that are available that interests you learn more about them? What are the fields that you can learn in those fields? And what are the things that just generally you want to spend time on? and spend time on those things, right? And don't feel this need to have to specialize? And just like deep dive into this one thing for the rest of your life? Because you're probably not going to enjoy that. Podcast Host: 26:42 And what advice would you give to parents? I think this is like an A very important part of this conversation is Yeah, parents are often saying, hey, you're going to become a, or what are you going to be done, they're either like pre determining what their child's going to do. Yeah. Or they are strongly encouraging their child to pick a path. And I feel like parents kind of give themselves a bit of a gold star once their child has chosen a path. And until, right, the parents feel this pressure, sometimes just as much as the child, which I think is wrong, you know, I think I think parents shouldn't feel that pressure and shouldn't put that pressure or hand that burden over to their child to make a decision. You know, I think parents would love to say, Oh, my child studying law, my child studying medicine, like they love to have that kind of kudos moment among their friends as well. Right. And I think that kind of continues the cycle of this pressure. So what role can parents play to help their child to really be okay, with the opportunities that come with having no decision as yet? Hannah Ahn: 27:48 Yeah, I can definitely feel you in terms of like, the whole parent thing, just like, on my own hands. And just like a lot of my own friends, as well. So kind of what I'd say and like, this is my one like, fluffy piece of advice I have, like, another piece of advice is like, I really just trust the process. I know, it's quite ambiguous, and things are unclear and uncertain for your child and for yourself. But really, just like trust that your child will be able to kind of explore and get into something that they care about, or something that, I guess provides them with, like, financial stability, or these sort of things. Um, I guess the other thing I would say is for parents, really just like the whole economy, and the whole world is really just changing. I think, in the next, like 1020 years, we're really going to see is that, like, we're shifting to like a, like, a greater economy and be like, there's going to be great advancements in tech and all that. So I think it's like giving your child the option of not necessarily like funneling them into, say, engineering, law or medicine, because I think there's like the top three, yes, um, like, in the future, we're going to see a lot of occupations that have never existed before. Yeah. And if you give your child the opportunity to explore these different things, you might actually come to a better outcome than these traditional pathways. In fact, it could be said that these traditional pathways, even things like accounting, are going to become more and more obsolete in the future. So it's just keeping those kind of changes in the future in mind. Podcast Host: 29:25 What did your parents want you to do? Hannah Ahn: 29:27 I just remember probably when I was eight, sitting around the dinner table, or whatever, we had to do show and tell and I was I Oh, come on firefighter, like, so cool. That was just because across the street, it was like a fire station. But my mom was like, No, don't do that. Hannah, you should totally become a lawyer. And I was like, oh, what's the lawyer and they're like, Oh, well, they help people and like, that's kind of the way that she sold it to me. And so for the next few years, I was just kind of set on this path. I'm going to do well. And I guess just kind of learning more about the other things that I was interested like, I started doing programming I started doing all this other stuff like design. I was like, Look, praying for me. Podcast Host: 30:05 Yeah, no, that's so what what is for you now? Have you chosen? Or have you? Like, where are you at in your own kind of decision making process for your career? not putting any pressure on you? Of course, yeah, you have to have an idea. Yeah, I think I always say to students, it's better to leave more doors open then to close doors off. But has your decision making process going, you're on a gap year, you've spent some time in Canva? You've started up two different organizations yakka. And why campus? So there's a lot of different strings to your bow at the moment, like you've done some really cool stuff, and you have some great skills and expertise. And where do you think that leads you personally? Hannah Ahn: 30:44 Yeah, um, so I guess where I see myself in the future is I just constantly want to be a creator, whether that be content, so through this newsletter, and potentially want to kind of evolve it into video, and potentially podcasting as well. And just like a lot of different formats. So I constantly want to be experimenting with that. So that's one part of me, like I just constantly want to be creating, I think as well as I want to keep my focus with design and project management and working with a team and potentially coding, as I'm learning that at the moment, they're trying to become more technical. And so I see myself potentially like building a startup or company, it could be in the creative space, also very interested in education and environment. And more recently, just because I've been on my gap year, I've just been doing a lot more research into things like AI. So I think that's kind of just the what I'm interested in, moving forward in the future. I think at the moment, though, it's more about seeing if I can go to campus and seeing where that takes me as a creator and potentially doubted the future. Podcast Host: 31:51 Who's your student community at this point? I mean, you're you're doing a gap year. And I know that some people do and some people don't. But I'm guessing most of your friends from high school have already started uni. So what kind of community Do you have around you right now? I mean, they say that you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with? Yeah, and you're a creator? Are you around other people who are doing similar things kind of like investigating AI or creating cool content and doing all these kinds of different fun, awesome things? Hannah Ahn: 32:23 I think this is great question, because I think just for anyone, like totally agree that you are the sum of i guess the five people around you. And I have been trying to reach out to a lot of people that are interested in this space, what they've been working on education, or AI or tech projects in general. So I guess I like to keep those kind of people in my community. And I've, while I've had friends from high school, I still, of course, keep in touch with them. I've been trying to explore like, reach out to people on LinkedIn and try to grow my community in those spaces. Podcast Host: 32:56 Yeah, I know, there's a LinkedIn is a rich source of students. If I think if people have been listening to my other episodes, this comes up fairly often, actually, where young people are on LinkedIn, is that the best way that students get in contact with you is through LinkedIn. Hannah Ahn: 33:11 Ah, yeah, for sure. So LinkedIn, also, Hammond has a website, you can reach me on my personal email as well. So yeah, we'll be in the show notes. And if students want to sign up to y campus, how do they do that? Yep. So to sign up to like compass, you just need to go to y compass.io. And there'll be an email sign up from there. And then we'll be sending three emails a week. Podcast Host: 33:35 Great. And what what should they expect to learn as a result of those three emails? Unknown: 33:39 So I guess what you should expect is we'll be sending curated careers advice, so the best career advice that we can find on the web, just so you can learn more about how to find things that you're passionate about, and also advance your own career. And also, we'll be sending through Friday, find sir, our job opportunities, internship opportunities, and different events and interesting things that you should kind of be kept in the loop about. And we'll also be sharing our whole industry is making waves segment, which is new and upcoming things in tech problem areas that you can kind of explore and learn more about, and see if that's potentially a career area for you. Podcast Host: 34:18 Well, maybe this podcast episode will even make it into one of the YCompass newsletters. It's been awesome to chat and I think it's really interesting to explore. And I think it's so relevant to so many students who do feel that kind of deep uncertainty with what their future looks like that there's a lot of different opportunities out there that are waiting for students, so it's best to kind of keep your eyes and options open as well. But it's been awesome having you on the show, Hannah, thank you so much for joining, and I'm sure students would love to connect with you on LinkedIn, and the y campus newsletter as well. Hannah Ahn: 34:49 Yeah, thanks for having me, Alex, that was really nice chatting about this and I hope people find a bit more serendipity, I guess, in their whole careers journey, I guess.

Ep #13 How to Approach Any Application and be an Effective Student Leader

🗓 NOV 27, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host: 0:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork, and in this episode, I chat with Australian student Magnus Mulhall. At 16, Magnus is a member of the New York Academy of Sciences and received the best delegate award at the Harvard University Innovation Challenge. We chat all about crafting applications for any situation, and discuss what it means to be a student leader. Let's chat with Magnus Mulhall. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Top of the Class podcast today. I'm delighted to be chatting with Magnus Mulhall. Is it Mulhall? Magnus: 0:50 Yeah, it's Mulhall, Podcast Host: 0:51 Mulhall, fantastic. Your I guess what many people might term as well, I term you anyway, as a bit of a consummate all rounder, as someone who's got strengths in sport, music and leadership, you're involved in some different programs and societies. Let's first start off with your interest in sciences, you said you want to be looking at doing medicine in the future. Tell us how like a 16 year old starts setting themselves up for a future in medicine. Magnus: 1:18 Yeah, absolutely. So I'm particularly interested in sciences in general. So not just medicine. And I think what brought me to medicine, just to start off with was, you know, it's that crossroad between interacting with people. It's quite a social job if you go into the clinical side of medicine, and then which is something I particularly enjoy. And then also sciences. So I found that crossroad, and that was obviously medicine. So that's first and foremost, why why I'm particularly interested in medicine, in response to what you asking how does someone prepare as a 16 year old? Yes, it's an interesting one, because, you know, don't start studying medicine syllabus, or curriculum, don't do that don't do those types of things, I would say, get involved in things that are at a 16 year olds level. So things that you can access, like the New York Academy of Sciences, like these societies that really foster passion for science and things that you can, you know, ultimately, in your interview, or, in your application reference, say, you know, I'm this really passionate individual about science, I've been able to get involved in these societies. And then, you know, another benefit that comes out of being involved in all of these societies, like the New York Academy of Sciences, is you discover all of these new fields of science and these new practices and different areas of science, really. So it it broadens your understanding of the entire, you know, field of science. Podcast Host: 2:44 Talk to us about the New York Academy of Sciences and how you got in and why you decided to apply and is it an application? Or do you just kind of like, sign up online? Like, well, what's the deal there? Magnus: 2:56 Yeah, absolutely. So um, I think it's approximately, I haven't looked into the the details of a bar, I think it's approximately 1000 students from across the world, as selected. In short, it's essentially a society. So it's based in New York, and they have scientists ranging from, you know, Junior scientists and breach researches, which is what I am to senior scientists who win Nobel prizes and stuff like that. And it's just like this one large community of science scientists who have, you know, a general passion for science. And in terms of the application process, all of its conducted online. So you can, you can essentially sign up to the New York Academy of Sciences from anywhere across the world. And you go through a written application process, and that that's it. All it is, is a written application, you submit your written application lists, co curricular achievements, passions for science, what areas of science, success in academic success in science, all of those, you know, trademarks or hallmarks of an application, all of the general criteria, and then you submit that, and I think you wait a few months or so. And then they get back to you with a letter of acceptance, obviously. Podcast Host: 4:14 Well, not obviously, unless you get a good application. Yeah. Hopefully they get back to you or literally to get back. Yeah. Right. So how much did you know about it prior to applying and what benefits have you seen from being a part of it? Magnus: 4:27 So in terms of applying, interestingly, I only discovered it, I actually discovered it through LinkedIn, or someone that I was in contact with and for all of the aspiring, you know, entrepreneurs on professionals even who are like 16 or 15, definitely get on LinkedIn. It's it's a goldmine. Yeah. So I discovered it through LinkedIn. I was in contact with someone who was currently in the New York Academy of Sciences and I said, How do you go about applying for this and she essentially just directed me in that general direction, submit an application. And in terms of benefits, I think one of the benefits that the application process will yielded was, it encouraged me to create a list of and this is something that I've continued throughout all of my applications. Keep a list of all of your co curricular achievements, your academic achievements, whatever they may be leadership positions, academic competitions, keep a list of them in a Word document or somewhere accessible, so then you can just reference them, drag them across your application, instead of having to wrack your brain for all of those achievements that you, you know, achieved five years ago or three years ago. So that's one of the benefits that I saw it through that application process. I actually, I think that was where I started my you know, log of achievements, I guess you would call it in terms of benefits from the actual society itself. Something that they do that's really interesting is they host these hackathons on like a monthly or two monthly basis, where they allow students they propose this problem to the students. And I think the problem for this month or this, you know, few months is telemedicine. Are you working on that hackathon? Podcast Host: 6:10 Are you producing anything for it? Magnus: 6:11 So I'm planning to currently you know, with exams and everything, I'm studying for that. But after exams, throughout December I'm planning to look into there's this new technology called haptics. And haptics is essentially like the physical equivalent, so that the feel equivalent to a sound recording. Podcast Host: 6:31 Well, I know haptics from my phone settings. When I go through my phone settings, and it says haptics, it's like how, how much the phone buzzes back at you or something. So okay, so now you're telling me what it means. Like, I'm glad because I never knew exactly what it means. I just thought it was the buzzy thing on your phone. So tell me more about haptics. Magnus: 6:46 So haptics does have a bit more depth to you know, not just, it's not just buzzing on your phone. What haptics is, is, you know, you've got your recording for sound, and sound allows you to replay all recordings allow you to replay sound without it actually being there in the present. So you can record something and play it, you know, hours later, and it's still there. And haptics is essentially the same, but for feeling, so you can create technology that allows you to feel things that aren't actually there. What I'm looking into in relation to telemedicine is how can you use that to interact with patients physically, when you're not actually interacting them physically. So you use haptics to, you know, do physical examinations and things like that? Podcast Host: 7:31 Wow. So that's an interesting, yeah, piece of technology that you look into? And you say, how do you submit that? Do you just kind of write them a, an essay about what you're thinking? And then send that off? Or is it more in depth project would have to a presentation or anything like that? Magnus: 7:46 Yeah, absolutely. So it's quite an in depth, actually, there are multiple, multiple stages to it. The first is obviously just develop a general outline of your idea, you create an abstract on, and they require you to submit the abstract by a due date, and then they assign a mentor, an older member of the New York Academy of Sciences, to your group. And, and they essentially could guide you along the process of developing your idea, you know, testing it out, they guide you essentially. Podcast Host: 8:16 Yeah, of course, yeah it's their job as mentors, right. Magnus: 8:18 What you do from there is you develop this whole robust plan of, you know, what, what does it entail, you do research into the area of science, and you do actually develop quite a strong understanding of that field of science. And then finally, you present it through a presentation, you present your idea. And then obviously, if it's something that's quite promising, as an idea, you'll have stakeholders that are interested and potential investors that are interested in it. Wow. Podcast Host: 8:46 And and most of these students, so you're paired up with a group, you said, No, no, no, you're just doing this solo. Magnus: 8:53 No, I will be paired with the group, but later in December. Podcast Host: 8:57 Okay. And are any of these other people that you know, from the New York Academy of Sciences from Melbourne, or from your school or anything else, or it's just elsewhere around the world? Magnus: 9:07 Yes. So from Australia, there were only 27 students selected. It was predominantly from America and more northern countries, I suppose. But yeah, there was one other student from Melbourne high, who's selected. And I have done a bit of collaboration with him in the New York Academy of Science, but it's predominantly students from other countries, which I think that's the real value to it. You know, you get to interact and develop these networks with students from countries and cities, kilometers away from you. And I think that's the real goldmine of what has been the biggest learning experience from that interaction because I hundred percent encourage students to find an international community of like minded people, and it's always I think, hard to get outside of your own school bubble sometimes and your schools always like, well, there's Podcast Host: 9:55 so many opportunities here like why would you need to go anywhere else, but there is so much better in finding a community outside of your school, what have been some of the things for you that you've noticed from being able to interact with students from around the world? Magnus: 10:07 Yeah, I actually might tie this a bit to the Harvard Innovation Challenge. And what something that we did in the Harvard Innovation Challenge was, it was essentially 300 students from across the world. And we were paired with just randomly paired with a few students from random countries across the world. And we were put in this group. And, you know, they said, develop this up solution to this problem. And my problem, our group's problem was education, challenges in education throughout remote learning. And something that I really found interesting was the cultural differences, the social differences, and then also the, you know, financial opportunity, the differences in opportunity, as well, between all of the all of us, because, you know, Australia is a fairly privileged country were quite developed. But there were students from rural Vietnam and India and think places like that, that, you know, weren't as developed and established as Australia. And it was really interesting, you know, we had all of these amazing ideas for technology, and, you know, these complex, quite expensive ideas, right. And, you know, it was interesting, because these students were kind of that would grounding the project and keeping us to reality, because we're like, okay, we're targeting rural Vietnam, they're really not going to be able to afford this virtual reality, or augmented reality technology, we have to think more realistic, we have to, you know, scale it to who we're targeting. So I think it was, you know, just an understanding with so many people from so many different places across the world, they had a group had an amazing understanding of how we could translate these ideas across to different areas of the world, and places that didn't have necessarily as much developed infrastructure. Podcast Host: 11:54 Okay, well, we're talking about the Harvard Innovation Challenge. So let's keep talking about that. Because I do think it's a really interesting thing. Were you on campus at Harvard for this particular challenge? Magnus: 12:04 Unfortunately, we weren't, I was stuck in my room, because it was returing remote learning, obviously. So we were, you know, rooms for like, seven hours, days, you know, on a cool collaborating, but I think, from my understanding, they do actually have a physical Harvard Innovation Challenge. So they've got one in Dubai, obviously, one in America. And that actually allows students from those regions to actually congregate on hobbins campus and actually interact physically. But for this one, it was a global challenge. So we had people from all over the world, and we weren't actually able to, you know, venture into the campus and collaborate then physically. But what we were able to do was, you know, extend the duration for which we were collaborating, because it was remote. Yeah, we didn't have to, you know, travel places we could do. We could sit at our desk and have seven hour days of just collaborating and working on our project. So in some sense, there were some benefits that did outweigh the, you know, negatives of being stuck in a room chained to your chair. Podcast Host: 13:09 Yeah, that must have been exhausting, just I mean, zoom calls and those kind of things they can get so tiring, and seven hours for how many days in a row? How long is the challenge? Magnus: 13:19 It was? Four days, four days. Yeah. Podcast Host: 13:23 Okay. So that's, yeah, that's a long time sitting in a chair. And by the end of that challenge, you're supposed to come up with, you know, it's a kind of a hackathon style kind of thing. You first come up with a project by the end of it. Magnus: 13:33 Yeah. It was essentially a hackathon. Podcast Host: 13:35 Yeah. Okay. And, again, like, how did you find out about that? Was it LinkedIn that you saw that pop up on? Magnus: 13:43 It was yet again, LinkedIn? Yeah. LinkedIn, as I said, is a genuine goldmine. Like, you will find so many opportunities on LinkedIn, I think it was a week before closing date again. And I was scrolling through my LinkedIn and it just popped up. Someone had liked it. And obviously, I had shared interests with that person. So it worked quite well, you know. Podcast Host: 14:03 Was it an ad or someone else posted about it? Unknown: 14:06 No, someone else posted about it. And one of the people that I was connected with, actually liked it. And I saw and I was like, Oh, interesting. Podcast Host: 14:13 And you saw the application, what was that? Like? What was it is a difficult application? Is it competitive to get in? Magnus: 14:19 No, actually, it's not competitive whatsoever. I think one of the great things about that challenge was it catered to all students from across world regardless of their opportunity and that privilege. So you didn't actually have to have many achievements. You didn't have to have much of a knowledge in areas of science or education. You could literally just write 300 words, expressing why you're interested, they would review that and then send you an email based off whether they selected you or not Podcast Host: 14:47 Something related to Harvard that's not competitive? Really? Maybe more competitive than you might think. I'm sure there's a lot of students applying him he still might not get it and I'm going to guess it's not limitless like the number of People who can take part. So I'm sure they've got some kind of cap on it based on what people are writing or whatnot. But how many students take part? You know, it must be hard to know when you're all doing it online. Magnus: 15:10 I think from my recollection, and this is, you know, the new form of measurement, the new unit unit of measurement. I think there were seven or eight pages of zoom. Yeah, however many that is there were seven or eight pages. Podcast Host: 15:24 Okay, that yet well, okay. Assuming that probably like 40 ish people can fit on a zoom screen, I think maybe at any one time. Magnus: 15:31 280 Podcast Host: 15:32 Around that. Good maths. Yeah, yeah, around that. That's okay. So it's a healthy number of students. And you got in a particular Ward as a result of your time in that competition. What was that? Unknown: 15:44 Yeah. So I was actually equally as surprised, as you know, the rest of the students. Yeah, I won the award, essentially, what the, the HSC, or the Harvard Innovation Challenge was broken up into two tracks. One was education throughout remote learning. And the other was public health throughout remote learning. What I won was the best delegate award of the education track. So that was essentially awarded to, you know, as it says, best delegate of the competition. And the person who actually won the public health Award Best advocate award was also a student at Melbourne high. So, you know, to two students from Melbourne Hye won both of the tracks for the Harvard competition. And yeah, it was just awarded to the best delegate, you know, in terms of contribution, collaboration, networking, all of that stuff. Podcast Host: 16:35 Is it the same guy who's also in the New York Academy of Sciences? Magnus: 16:39 No, it's a different one. Podcast Host: 16:41 Every guy goes, Yeah. What does it do for you personally, in terms of like, confidence, or in terms of your, I guess, global standing? Does it feel like you're kind of pushing the boundaries of your school and Melbourne a little bit more? When you are named Best delegates of a global competition? And you're part of the New York Academy of Sciences? Is there any time that you're feeling like, Oh, you know, school is great, but there's so much more out there. And I need to keep pushing the boundaries now that I've kind of got this level of achievement on a, I guess, a global scale. Are you looking for the next thing? Magnus: 17:20 Yeah, yeah, I absolutely am, I'm, I'm doing that. And then something that I'm also trying to do is, you know, keeping all of this stuff separate from school to some degree. Because, you know, I don't want to be to living two different lives. But school is something separate to, you know, all of these co curricular activities. And if you can bring these activities to school, like water polo, for instance, like music, then that's great, but I don't necessarily think it's students in your class will want to hear about, you know, I'm the best delegate of the Harvard official, so I kind of tried to keep those two things separate. And then I try to excel in school, whilst also excelling in that different area of life. So I kind of look at it as two different spheres. Um, you know, you can excel in both at the same time. And that's something that is extremely important to emphasize, you don't want to just neglect a school because school is extremely valuable it so school enables you that all these conventional things, and then you can do pursue your interests and all of these unconventional things outside in that other sphere. Podcast Host: 18:27 Would you turn yourself a busy person? Because it sounds like you've got a lot going on with waterpolo and music and external competitions and school obviously, Are you stressed? Are you busy? Do you not have time for anything else? Magnus: 18:42 I'm quite often quite stressed, actually, to be honest. But I kind of enjoy the stress to as strange as that sounds, it doesn't motivate me on having things on a list to do. Because I feel like if I didn't have those things on a list to do, I'd get complacent. And then I, you know, just wind up on my bed watching Netflix or something along those lines. And I think it's also important to emphasize that I do do those things sometimes. And everyone does that. It's just in human nature that everyone will sometimes to some degree burnout. But it's just about getting back up on your feet. So I think I would say yes, I am quite busy. Most of the time, you know, whether it be studying at home for academics or sport training, practice, all of those things. But I do prefer it, I would prefer that a busy life over you know, a lot where I'm just sitting on my bed watching Netflix. Podcast Host: 19:37 Yeah, well, you're going into the final years of high school now. What do you say is been the path for you next two years in terms of time management, because I know a lot of students who do have very busy co curricular activities kind of wait to wait. Some of them I guess, just drop everything in their final years of high school, which is a bit of a shame, I think. Yeah. Where do you sit in that kind of category. Do you have any activities that might be closer to the chopping block than others. Magnus: 20:03 I completely agree with you, Alex, when you said, it's a bit of a shame, like I ultimately wants to say just a resounding no, I'm not gonna drop them, because they are equally if not more valuable than academics. And you know, you look at the workforce, soft skills are one of the most highly emphasized things in and highly sought after things in the workforce, you need to be able to communicate, you need to be able to work in a team, you need to, you know, understand how social relationships work. So I think those you can't learn that stuff through studying a textbook, Khan learn that through VC, biology, OVC, maths methods, or any of those things, you have to learn that through collaborating with other people. And a perfect opportunity to do that is through curriculum. So I would say an ultimate not i'm not intending to drop them. And if anything, I'm probably intending to, you know, wrap the wrap it up slightly, because I'm kind of on the fence as to whether I look to an overseas University and look to try and pursue maybe some sort of overseas university degree, or whether I stay in Australia and something that the American system emphasizes curriculum. I think, just in the grand scheme of things, it's like, this is a weird analogy, but it's like, you know, you you develop a new relationship with someone, just let's just say that they're a girlfriend or something, yes, I'm for a boyfriend, and you're not going to drop all of your other relationships with your family members, and with your cousins and with your friends, just to spend time with your partner, like you may, you may change how you do it, but you're not just going to completely neglect those other relationships that you've developed. So, you know, as strange as this sounds, see your activities as relationships, you've developed this new relationship with a new partner, but you're not going going to just neglect your family, you're not going to neglect brands. It's about you know, changing it, depending on what your priorities are. Podcast Host: 22:02 Now, you have a very strong background in student leadership. And I know that in at least my experience, anyway, a lot of the time student leadership is kind of spoken in vague terms, where it's more of a mindset than anything else. And it can be a little bit hard to grasp exactly what you should be doing as a student later. Now you're in your 10th. At the moment, do you currently have an official student leadership role? Magnus: 22:24 I do currently. So I actually came to MHS. This year, as a year 10. And I initially didn't, and then I think it was maybe two weeks in, we held an election, the entire school held an election for the school council representative. So we held those elections, and I think it was maybe 30 students applied. And I was one of them. And we submitted a written application. And something that I found interesting was, you know, I went for quite an unconventional written application, I put a lot of mine in top point format, with capslock. activated, obviously, on my keyboard, and it was just up slipped off points. And I placed myself in the shoes of a student reading these 30 passages of written applications, no student is going to read through 30 written applications or 200 words, and look at it and then read age and evaluate who's going to be the best June representative. It's just, it's just not going to happen, right? So you know, I tapped into that I thought, okay, they're going to be scrolling through the screen, looking for something that catches their attention, hence, why I put the caps lock and the dock points. So somehow, I managed to, you know, get into that position, I was elected by the student body. And all throughout this year, I've been able to, you know, create initiatives for the students and contribute to reforming the school system and the school structure, policy changes all of that stuff. And I think what really brought that about was understanding the student cohort or understanding the people that you're leading, because if I didn't know that, you know, students would be scrolling through that those 30 applications, really just neglecting each of them, then I wouldn't have been in that position. Because I wouldn't have understood how to, you know, grasp their attention. Podcast Host: 24:12 I completely commend you for that. You got to know your audience, right? But you got to write for your audience. And in that case, you did very, very well. Do you feel like you are a little less powerful in some sense, because you are you tend, I know that some students look at student leadership as being like a final year thing, you know that most people will aspire to be a school captain, all that kind of thing. Sometimes I think that a lot of students who are in that final year, they're almost too busy to do like serious student leadership stuff. So talk to us a little bit about, I guess what role a proactive your 10 or 16 year old could have within a school community. In some sense, you've Magnus: 24:51 got an advantage in comparison to those years 12. I mean, I'm actually currently working with the current MHS school captain and then it 2021 School captain of images, you know, we collaborate over a variety of different projects. And often, it almost seems as if their role is, you know, just oversee all of the progress of the policy changes of the initiative creations, all of those things. And whilst that's great when you oversee those types of projects, and don't necessarily get involved, that's when you kind of you lose out on all of the valuable skills, like organizational skills, things like that, creating events. So I think, in some sense, if you are a year 10, late, I need to find yourself in one of these positions, you really need to put some emphasis on the things that the school captains or those upper leadership roles can do, such as, you know, writing proposals, things like that. And although that seems, you know, trivial and tedious in nature, it really isn't like, I quite enjoy writing proposals now, because you get to shape how it's, you know, kind of presented to the community. So I think, play to your strengths as a year 10, later, you know, the school captains don't really have time to write proposals, and brainstorm all of these ideas. So take this as an opportunity to do that work, brainstorm ideas, write the proposals, then you present it to the school captain. And then you have an avenue that you can, you know, go through to get involved in those upper leadership roles. So that's, that's actually exactly what happened to me, you know, I wrote all these proposals, created all of these ideas, proposed it to these school captains and these SRC presidents. And they said to me, we would actually love you to be on board and kind of present this to the school Council and, you know, the school community, because ultimately, these are your ideas. So I think that's the real, you know, key to creating an impact as a younger leader. Podcast Host: 26:44 I completely agree, I think there's so much that a you 10 can do. And you're right, that a lot of the time, the school captains are like looking to do the big speeches and that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, the nitty gritty day to day, changes that a student community might be looking for, probably best facilitated by someone in the attend who's like ready to sit down and write something out. With the whole student leadership side of things. Is it more of a mindset or a skill set? Like do you see yourself I am a leader kind of mindset? Or is it like organizational writing proposals? What do you see as being most important for you in order to actually make an impact? Magnus: 27:22 I think, ultimately, when you boil it down to it's probably the mindset, to be honest, you know, skill sets are always things that you can obtain, you can do that through actually writing a proposal, you can gain experience in writing a proposal, through actually writing, but a mindset, you actually need to intentionally and consciously change how you perceive yourself as a member of the community. And then you somehow, you know, after months, you start getting these opportunities, you change your mindset, then the opportunities come to you. And that's then when you develop the skill set. So I think you start off with the mindset, you change your mindset and tell you so wake up one day and say, I'm a little, I'm going to be a leader, you may not have these roles, but you can tell yourself that you're going to be a leader. And it's the small things that really count, you know, helping out a kid in the hallway pick up picking up his pencil case, as being a leader later. And that sounds so cliche, like I've heard that told me countless times, but it genuinely is, it's the mindset. And then the opportunities follow. Podcast Host: 28:23 Let me just quickly check on the skill set side because writing proposals and organizing events and that kind of thing, it can be something that you learn from experience, or it can be something that you learn through your classroom, I don't think many classrooms are going through an English class not really talking about writing proposals too much. So in terms of like, filling that knowledge gap on the skills side, how did you go about doing that? Is that something that you looked up online? I know, it sounds like a basic question. But yeah, how do you go about writing a proposal? Or how do you go about like organizing a school event? Is it someone who you speak to from, you know, the, the levels of barbecue? Or who do you go to for advice on those kinds of things? Magnus: 29:01 Yeah, absolutely. You know, like, I really do wish they had a subject for leadership as some sort of leadership subject, because it's so valuable, and it will become extremely vital later on in life. But that was just a bit of a side note. In terms of where I actually obtained the skills, I think, the most valuable resources mentors, like you know, you see these school captains, and these SRC presidents, and most of the time, they're actually quite approachable. Talk to them, ask them to maybe send you previous proposal that they wrote up, and you just use that as a structure really, you look at it, you evaluate, you know, what, what's the structure or how they outline the idea how they presented it, usually it's an introduction and a rationale. Why are we doing so such thing x, y, Zed, and then all of the details, the nitty gritty, so contact your mentors or those those higher up leaders in your school community or wherever, whatever type of community you're in, talk to them because often they Are approachable and ask them for some sort of previous proposal that they wrote up and just compare yours really just work on replicating it. And then later on down the track, you develop your own style. Podcast Host: 30:12 One other thing that I like to talk to when I'm chatting with school leaders is that idea that it's really important to know the different branches of your school community, you've got your student body, right, and you've got your different levels and SSC presidents and the rankings within that. But then you've got your teachers, then you've got the parent community, then you've got your, you know, you might have an advisory board that's external to the school, and you might have the old boys or old girls. So like the alumni of the school, because I sometimes think that I've seen some great student leaders who push really hard for change. And they're very, very good at it. But the problem that often occurs is that they've only taken into account one stakeholder, which is the student, but I think like a really good student leader is able to listen to other stakeholders as well during that kind of consultative process. So can you talk us through I guess, that kind of bigger than the student body type view that a student leader might have? Magnus: 31:05 Yeah, absolutely on, this is actually something that I went through, you know, Harvard, an online Harvard course code on exercising leadership, foundational principles, or something along those lines. And it's actually free. So I definitely recommend any students watching this to, you know, have a look at that. But it talks about this idea, and this, this is a really common idea of looking at things or perceiving things from the balcony, you know, taking a step back and looking down onto the dance floor and looking at all of the, I suppose people of play and things of play, and taking a step back looking at it from the balcony. And it's, you know, it's really interesting, because that, that, you know, you take a step back, and you look at all of the stakeholders. And while while that kind of does sound simple, it's, it's quite difficult to do in practice, you know, how do you consider all of these views of different students and different teachers and different old boys and alumni, like, do talk to them, to just assume what they, they would kind of think of this idea. And ultimately, I think it's just talking really, you have to, you have to do your research, you have to, you know, gauge the the interest of the student body gauge the interest of the teacher body, gauge the interest of the alumni. And often schools, for example, have mechanisms to do this, like they have structures that allow you to do this on, for instance, the school Council, when they make some sort of large policy reform or structural reform, they have to go through community consultation, yes, a really great way of doing that is creating working groups. So you create working groups within the students, you know, five or 10 students with a facilitator. And you do that maybe 30 times with, you know, five or 10 different students each time. And so then you ask for their feedback, obviously, with regards to the idea, you asked them how they feel about it. But then also, another great thing that these working groups bring about is student input and community input. You know, this is also an opportunity to gain input, they don't like an idea, how would you fix this? How would you like to change? So I think if we're talking about a school setting, there are actually tangible mechanisms that you can actually go through and policies that you can, you know, look at that allow you to consult the community, whether it be teachers, students, or whatever it Podcast Host: 33:27 may be. Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I think aspiring student leaders who are listening to the episode should take that in into account. What other advice would you give to aspiring student leaders or current student leaders who are out there kind of saying, Yeah, I've got this position, or students who are aiming to get that position? And what advice would you give to them based on your experiences? Magnus: 33:49 Yeah, absolutely. I'm a latest student, you're still a student, you're, you're a student. And you may be a leader, but you're not, you know, above the student cohort, you're a student within the student cohort. And that's the best place to lead from being from within the student cohort, all leading from behind the student corvil. You know, you lead from behind you facilitate students, you push them up instead of trying to drag them up with ideas or things like that. So I think, you know, a great way of thinking about it is, you can't hear a group of students talking, if you're 100 meters away from them, or you are 100 meters above them. You cannot hear their ideas and hear what they're saying, from within the group. And so if you separate yourself, and you create this image of all on the Lita home superior to the students, so I have a title on my blazer, then the students aren't going to come to you with their ideas they don't get you're not going to get that rich, valuable insight and input from the students. So tip number one, as a leader, don't lead from above lead from within or behind. So then you can actually listen to the students. With that said, I'm not just saying you know, don't apply for leadership positions because no one cares about the position. that aren't kept care about the title. They care about what you do with the title. And this applies to the application process as well. Students often, you know, in applications I've read a few for the recent Junior School Captain application process of my school. And quite a, you know, common trend that a lot of the students fell victim to was writing about how they experiences qualify them to be a junior school captain and how the role of junior school Captain will benefit them as leaders. Yes, leadership isn't about you, as a leader, it's about the community that you're serving, instead of writing about all this position will enable me to, you know, Garner experience in proposal writing, allow me to develop organizational skills, just get rid of the meat and replace it with you know, the student cohort, the student body, the community, because that's what the selection panel is looking for. They're not looking for a self serving leader, they're looking for a leader that can serve the cohort because that is what a leader does. So number one, the title doesn't matter. It's what you do with the title. Yes, um, it's good. Lead from within the cohort or behind, not from above, because you can't hear someone 100 meters away. Yes. Number three would be right about the the cohort and how you're going to be benefiting the cohort, as opposed to benefiting yourself as a leader. Podcast Host: 36:19 And so yeah, knowing how to apply is like, a skill in and of itself that really does take time to master. And and knowing your audience is a really big part of that. Magnus: 36:29 Yep, exactly. I cannot agree more. I think this this massive misconception that, you know, there's the perfect application, there's the model application, you want to model this application. But ultimately, like you say, on YouTube, or here's my Oxford application, personal statement, all of this thing, and then run through the structure. There is no structure to an application really, like there are a few pointers that you can, you know, target. But I think a perfect example of why there is not is actually a story that I heard at the Harvard innovation competition, one of the Harvard University students was talking about what he wrote in his personal statement. And, you know, I was expecting all he listed all of these achievements, I impacted so many people wrote about dogs. Nike wrote about dogs and cats. And, you know, there was probably more substance to it than just dogs and cats. But bottom line, he wrote about dogs and cats and how he was interested in them, and you know, how they've impacted these life and stuff like that. And then he found ways to, you know, within his achievements, but he did it through storytelling. And when you have that, you know, pool and I've sat on a few selection panels, you know, for the SRC, co presidents and the SRC cabinet, for my school. And when you get 60 applications that are just echoing the same message, and they just stayed in the same structure it, you start to really lose interest. And then, you know, the 49th application with that. There's someone who starts the application off with a question with the story, they saw with something interesting, and it's a breath of fresh air. It's almost as if you walked through kilometers of desert, and then you finally reach this oasis. And it's genuinely one of the most refreshing things to read as an interviewer or as you know, someone who's sitting on a selection panel. Podcast Host: 38:25 Yeah, and keep in mind, like 60 applications, your rating, I've spoken to people who are rating applications in the US and they read 600 and like, the personal statements are a bit longer, you know, usually 600 words or thereabout. And it's, it's a, it's tiring, and that they always remember that one essay that stands out and I've asked a couple of former division officers what their favorite essays and it's always one that has like an interesting story or one that doesn't kind of go through the whole rigmarole of these are my achievements in these areas have impacted people, but have has a bit of humor has a bit of a story about it and is memorable for a variety of reasons. But Magnus has been fantastic to chat and you know, have you on the podcast today. I look forward to having shared this episode far and wide. And hopefully the Melbourne High School and Melbourne and Australia community can get behind this episode as well. But thanks very much. I think everybody would want to connect with you on LinkedIn now that you've spoken about it quite a lot. So a welcome to contact you on there. Magnus: 39:23 Yeah, absolutely. Just Magnus Mulhall. Podcast Host: 39:25 If you want to have tips from Magnus on I guess how to make the most of LinkedIn. Just follow along and see how he goes about it because you did pretty well on that. Magnus: 39:32 Perfect. Thank you, Alex. Podcast Host: 39:34 Thanks, Magnus.

Ep #12 From Idea to Innovation with America's Top Young Scientist for 2019

🗓 NOV 25, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with 15 year old, Kara Fan. In 2019, Kara was named America's Top Young Scientist for winning the 3M Young Scientist Challenge. We chat all about her invention, her presentation, and what she's focusing on now. Let's chat with caravan. Hello, Kara, welcome to the top of the class podcast. It's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself maybe a little bit about your project that you worked on? Kara Fan 00:46 My name is Kara Fan. I'm a high schooler, I'm a sophomore at Westview. And the project I did for the 3M Young Scientist Challenge was the nano silver liquid bandage. And this project is to reduce the overuse and misuse of antibiotics. And after the 3M Young Scientist Challenge, I decided to raise awareness for antibiotic resistance. Because I found out that a lot of people don't know about this problem. So I decided to make an island or Animal Crossing dedicated to teach people about antibiotic resistance. Podcast Host 01:19 Right. So it's become a bit of a thing for you. Is that like your main interest now is antibiotic resistance and how technology can help solve antibiotic resistance? Kara Fan 01:29 Yeah, like I just want people to be more kind of aware about this problem. Because by 2050, like 10 million people will die from antibiotic resistance. And I could tell like, after I went through, I did like a bunch of interviews. And actually a lot of people didn't know about this problem. Podcast Host 01:46 Yeah, I mean, it's becoming even more of a problem, obviously now will be with you know, COVID-19. Realizing, yeah, I have to come up with a whole new vaccine, and it didn't respond to initial antibiotics and those kinds of things. So definitely, it's a big problem. But how does a young caravan probably at the age of 13, or 14, decide to work on a project that focuses on antibiotic resistance. Kara Fan 02:08 So actually, a long time ago, my grandma, she got UTI, and it's urinary tract infection. And she was sent to the emergency room because of that. So after that, I kind of got interested in like the medicine that had saved her life with just antibiotics. And after that, you know, I read a lot of Scientific American magazines for fun because my dad would always like, subscribe to them, and they would come to us. And I saw on one of the articles, it said that superbugs is going to be a huge problem. And I was really scared because I didn't know that such a thing existed. Podcast Host 02:45 Yeah, exactly. superbug and when you read about it for the first time, you're like, how is not everybody talking about this? This is crazy. Right? Okay, so you've got that interest in antibiotic resistance and bugs? Keep going forward through the timeline here. Kara Fan 03:00 Yeah. So after I learned about that, I kept on researching more. And I just found this one random article and said that silver can kill bacteria. And I thought that was really cool. And I researched more, and found out that copper and other metals can kill bacteria. Like the ancient Aztecs and the ancient Chinese. They used copper to, like drink out of and to kind of help with their wounds. Yes, yeah. So after that, I decided to do a project where I can use silver to heal bacteria instead of antibiotics. Podcast Host 03:32 And did you know anything about the 3M Science Competition when you started it? Kara Fan 03:37 No, I actually submitted this to my local science fair, because I just wanted to kind of share my idea at the science fair and see what other people were doing as well. And then I just came across it three young scientists challenge like on social media, Podcast Host 03:50 okay, well explain to our listeners, what the 3M Young Scientist Challenge is exactly. Kara Fan 03:55 The 3M Young Scientist Challenge is a science challenge for middle school students, where they submit a project idea, a science project idea that can significantly change the world. And after that top 10 finalists are chosen to go to Minnesota to compete for the final prize of being a top young scientist. Podcast Host 04:15 So you submitted the project for the very first time in a science fair, your local one. Did you win that? Or how'd you go in that science fair? Kara Fan 04:24 Well, for that one, I got first place in my microbiology division. Podcast Host 04:28 Okay. Cool. So 04:30 yeah, Podcast Host 04:30 right, right. And what have you learned about entering into science fairs and science competitions as a result of this process? Because you came into it as I understand like a complete newbie at the very first time, right? So can you take us through I guess, how you learned how to turn your project into a presentation. Kara Fan 04:48 First of all, for the science fair, they give us like, kind of like an outline like if your hypothesis, and I just follow that, and from my actual presentation, well, before I did the science fair, I did firstly, and for that we had to do a lot of presentations. And I also joined debate. So I guess that kind of helped me, but for the science fair, so when we go there, it's kind of like a one on one presentation. Mm hmm. So I was more prepared to do that. And like talk in front of like, hundred people. Podcast Host 05:16 Well, I saw a video on YouTube have your presentation, and it was or it look like anyway, that you were presenting in front of about 100. People like the finals are 3am. Right? Yeah, those Kara Fan 05:27 three scientists challenge. Podcast Host 05:28 And how intimidating was that word? By that time? Were you like, pretty solid on how you would pitch it? Kara Fan 05:33 Yeah. So at that time? Well, during the Young Scientists Challenge, I had to practice my project, like every single day. And I actually practice with my mentor as well. And she helped me kind of like, tweak it a little bit. And that was really intimidating, though. Podcast Host 05:49 Yeah. speaking in front of 100 people, right. And there were not just 100 other students, a lot of them are scientists, and yeah, judges and everybody who's like, there's a lot of money on the line. There's $25,000 on the line. So it was a lot of pretty high stakes. Did you do any kind of like breathing techniques to try and calm yourself down? Oh, yeah. On stage. Yeah. Kara Fan 06:09 Yeah. So one of the leaders for 3M Young Scientist Challenge, she took us so right before each presentation, she took us around the three m lobby, and we walked for like five minutes before we presented and we just talked about life. It really helped me calm down, because without that, I would have been really nervous. Podcast Host 06:29 Well, I would have been nervous anyway. But yeah, it is good to have that no chance to calm down a little bit, which I think is great. Talk to me about the actual presentation. Do you remember it at all? Because I know that there's some students who go on stage, and it's all a blur, right? They can't even remember what they said or what happened up on stage. But what do you remember from that time that you had? Kara Fan 06:50 So the presentation? Well, it was only five minutes, but there were like, I think, five minutes to answer questions. And all I remember was, well, there was a lot of people staring at me. But I just tried to look like straight and I just presented my project. And it was just really bright. Podcast Host 07:07 It was really bright. You got a lot of lights on you and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So it's pretty intense. And I saw the you know, the footage of when you were announced the winner, and you got like the big novelty chair. Yeah. And talk us through that moment. What was it like to have your name called out as the winner of the 3M Young Scientist Challenge and be named as America's top young scientists, which is an amazing title to go along with? I mean, almost more than the prize money is having that title associated with your name, right. That's crazy. Kara Fan 07:37 Yeah. So what else announced I was really surprised, first of all, because I didn't know if I would even like place third or second. I was kind of aiming for second. But like before they announced my title. Like there is like another person. Her name's I think, Caroline, and her name is kind of similar to mine. So I thought I got second place. But when I was announced first I was like, really surprised. And like, it was really good. Podcast Host 08:02 Yeah. And what was the reaction of your parents and your family? Kara Fan 08:06 Only my dad was there. And he was just like, shocked. Podcast Host 08:11 Everybody was a little bit shocked, I'm sure. Yeah, right. Okay. Well, take us back, I guess in time a little bit to your early stages of your research, because on the top of the class podcast, what we try and do is go beyond the headline achievement, and actually try and help other students who might be interested in research as well to understand how you did your research, because I'm hearing things like nano silver and microbial copper and electronic microscopes and it sounds pretty crazy for a 14 year old to be getting into those kinds of fields. You saw the articles on a silver and copper can help kill microbes and be antibacterial. What then happened? You said you got a mentor, when did she come into the picture? Kara Fan 08:53 Well, I submitted my nanosilver liquid bandage project before I went to three among scientists challenge or mentor helps me so before when I searched up how silver can kill bacteria. I was kind of confused on how to make like a liquid bandage out of it because you just like strapped silver to your arm. Yes. bacteria. Podcast Host 09:12 So you see silver can kill. Yeah, you know, then you're like, Oh, this would be cool. If it was in a bandage format. Yeah, right, a liquid bandage for a liquid bandage format. And what did you know about liquid bandages? Did you think that there was something out there already that could be doing this kind of thing? Did you like search online? liquid silver band? It seems like see if there was any results that popped up? Kara Fan 09:33 Yeah, I would actually before this whole like project started. I always use liquid bandages. They're just convenient, and they won't really hurt when you're trying to like peel it off. Right? So that's why I kind of wanted to do a project similar to that. But I didn't really know how to apply like silver until like a liquid bandage right until I found I just searched up like really small pieces of silver like small particles of silver. And I found out about nano silver, and actually it's really easy to Make I found a lot of different people who may nano silver with like leaves and kale and just really easy to make. Yeah, I can explain. Podcast Host 10:08 Yeah, please do are interested as to how you make nano silver from leaves and kale. Kara Fan 10:14 Yeah. So for it to make nano silver, you get silver nitrate, and you can buy silver nitrate off of Amazon. And you can mix it with kale solution. So basically I just boiled kale leaves in water, and that acts as a reducing agent and it reduces the silver particles into nano silver. Podcast Host 10:34 Okay, and did you learn about that on YouTube or Hulu? Okay, so YouTube is a feature for a whole lot of your generation Google and YouTube as a teacher for everybody. So did you do that at home? Or did you do that at school? Kara Fan 10:47 I do at home. Podcast Host 10:48 Okay, so you're at home creating nanosilver pretty normal thing for a 14 year old? Who were your parents? Like, Hey, what are you doing with that? kale? Is that dinner? Like? That is over? Kara Fan 10:59 Yeah, cuz my parents will I asked my dad to buy off of Amazon. So you kind of knew, but they're both like computer scientists. So they don't really know anything about this kind of stuff. So they're, like skeptical, that would actually work. But for now silver. So when you first mix it, it's like grain. But then if it turns into like a brown color, then you know that it probably worked. So I was really surprised it actually worked. Podcast Host 11:22 Okay, fantastic. So you've got the nano silver, you've got I guess, in your home liquid bandage solution? Did you just try and like mix the two or what did you do from there? Kara Fan 11:31 Yeah, so for my actual project, I didn't really want to mix like a 3am liquid bandage. Because I didn't know if like they would allow it. I mean, they probably would. But what I did was I took a Palmer, which is PvP, and it's a waterside biopolymer. And I mixed it with the nano silver, so that when you spray it onto your hand, it will create like a thin film that can protect the area. Okay, this is pretty cool. Podcast Host 11:54 Like, are you bouncing any of these ideas of time off your friends or off like your science teacher who you chatting to when you're going through this process? Because it sounds like a pretty daunting thing to be doing on your own. Kara Fan 12:04 Yeah, so I just I talked about with my dad. And afterwards B contacted a professor at UCSD. And he helped us use electron microscope. But other than that, I didn't really talk to anyone about it. Podcast Host 12:18 Okay, I'm interested in the UCSD part. So we don't know there's the University of California, San Diego. Yeah, that's like your closest one isn't? Kara Fan 12:26 Yeah. Okay. Podcast Host 12:27 And did you know that that professor was interested in this particular field? Or were they just like a microbiology professor? Kara Fan 12:34 Oh, Tresor. He was just, he just handles the electron microscope. So he didn't really like help me with my project, like directly. He just helped me use electron microscope and look at the nano silver and kind of explained a little bit about that. Podcast Host 12:48 I can hear our listeners being like, ask her how she got to use the electron microscope and yesterday, like, wouldn't they say, Oh, sorry. That's like University property? Do you have to be like a student here to be using that? How did you get around that like, was it your dad who helped you out or what happened? Kara Fan 13:03 I went to the UCSD website, and they had a contacts list, but the people who handle electron microscope, and I contacted everyone, and he responded, and he said that he could actually help me use electron microscope, which is pretty cool. And actually, this year, I asked if I could use another microscope, the scanning electron microscope, but for that one, you have to pay so kind of depends, right? But Podcast Host 13:24 you know, yeah, I needed an electron microscope, you're able to see the nano silver particles. Yeah, kind of make this project work. Right. So what was it like seeing the nano silver particles in the electron microscope for the first time Kara Fan 13:36 seeing the nano silver particles for the first time, it was really fascinating, because like nano silver can come with like a lot of shapes and sizes. And it really signed to see my nano silver, like really small. I mean, like, it could be like a few hundred nanometers or like 10 nanometers. But actually, the smaller the size, the easier or better can kill bacteria. So it was really exciting to see, like 10 nanometers. Podcast Host 13:58 Did you have a moment where you thought, wow, this is science in action? This is an idea that Yeah, coming to life here. How was that feeling of creating science? Kara Fan 14:09 That was really cool. Because I didn't know that it would actually work because i for i made this lotion. Yes, it did turn brown. But it was just really cool to see like such simple ingredients, I guess turned into something. So cool. Podcast Host 14:23 Talk us through the research and testing side of things. So you've got the silver particles, you've got kind of solution that you can use as the bandage side of things. How do you go about testing that because you were dealing with like e coli and all these other like pretty nasty bacteria? That must have been a little bit crazy to have Yeah, all this dangerous bacteria around you. So talk me through that process and what that was like? Kara Fan 14:46 So I actually bought the bacteria from a website called Carolina calm and they sell a bunch of medical things like bacteria and his websites Podcast Host 14:55 for everything. Yeah, go websites for buying bacteria. I'd never thought I'd come around. Cross one like that, but I'm glad you did, because it helped you make the bandage. Yeah. So you found this website that sells bacteria and you buy bacteria from them? Kara Fan 15:07 Yeah. Okay, well actually, I first bought one kind of bacteria. First, it was ecola. And I bought a bunch of petri dishes from them too, because bacteria grow and PJ fishes and I used a Kirby Bauer method. So basically, it's a method where I drop a few pieces of my nano silver liquid bandage onto like, a small disc, and then I put it on the petri plate that already has bacteria on it. And then I wait for a few days. And then I just check to see if the bacteria grew or not. And there's like a diameter kind of around the circle. And it just shows how much bacteria is killed. Podcast Host 15:42 And what were the results of those initial tests, you have to adjust what you were doing at all? Or was it just like, Wow, it works. And I've got my project, or what kind of iterations did you have to have after? Kara Fan 15:53 Yeah, so I had to adjust it. Because sometimes if you have such a huge concentration or nanosolar might be a bit toxic. So I tested it with different concentrations. So I tested it with 50 100 200, and so on. And I found that the minimum inhibitory concentration, which is like the lowest concentration kill bacteria, was 50. And the higher the concentration, the more can kill bacteria. And then I decided to test with other types of bacteria as well. Podcast Host 16:21 This is pretty cool, right? Like you're writing science, you've got your nano silver, you've got your solution, you're killing off bacteria, one after the other. What was next what was next on the chopping block in terms of bacteria. Kara Fan 16:31 So there's actually two different kinds of bacteria this gram positive and Gram negative bacteria, so Gram negative bacteria, like resist more antibiotics, and it's more dangerous and gram positive. So that's why I decided to test on both types of bacteria to make sure that my nanosilver can kill both types of bacteria. Podcast Host 16:48 And how did you learn all this? Is it just through YouTube still on Google? or How are you learning all of these terminology? And where are you getting all your resources from? Kara Fan 16:58 So when I first started science fair, I didn't use all these terminologies cuz I didn't understand it. But after I did science fair, I looked at a bunch of projects from the high schoolers and like, the people who are like, already really good at science fair, right. And I found out about that from them. Podcast Host 17:15 Okay. Okay. So this is when it starts coming into Yeah, you know, when we talk about, like, what goes into a winning three m young scientist challenge project, it's that kind of scientific terminology and the actual project itself, and the research and the data and everything else. Yeah. So can you talk us through, I guess, how you managed to start putting everything together leading up to the 3M Young Scientist Challenge? So you've got your project, it's testing? Well, it's one the local science fair, yeah. But you're like, Okay, I'm going to need to up my game if I'm going to really make a dent in the competition here at 3M. So yeah, you would have been like, pretty full on learning a lot of new things and trying to make sure that it was ready for that kind of level of competition. 17:57 Yeah, so for 3M just this to post a video, and the video of your project. And if they think your project is like really interesting and help the world, then you get into the top 10. And after that, have a mentor so that my mentor, she helped me a lot through this process. So we actually instead of using Petri plates to grow bacteria, we use Petri films because they're more environmentally friendly. And I decided to use like, more environmentally friendly methods to synthesize my nano silver Podcast Host 18:27 mentor was name was Sarah, right? Yeah. Okay. When what's Sarah's role? Is she a scientist as well as she like a microbiologist? Or how much does she know about what you're working on? 18:36 So Sarah, she's a scientist at 3M. And she's an a microbiologist, she works in the material science. But she helped me throughout the science process. And she gave me access to microbiologists and actually the 3M liquid bandage expert, Podcast Host 18:53 oh, the actual experts to the person who was developing the three. bandage, you got to chat to them? Kara Fan 18:59 Yeah. Podcast Host 19:00 What was that like? 19:01 Well, that was pretty cool. Because they're just talking about how like, you can use different solvents to create the liquid bandage to help it evaporate faster, or you can create like a thicker film. And that was really cool. Talk to someone who actually, like knew about liquid bandages. Podcast Host 19:16 Yeah, I bet it was, how much was it all at the end of the day, in terms of cost was pretty expensive project to undertake 19:23 as like, a few hundred dollars. Okay. Yeah. So to buy a bacteria, the bacteria is not too bad, but I had to test with a lot of Petri plates, and testing with like hundreds of Fiji plates to kind of adds up a lot. And for electron microscope, because I was lucky enough to have someone like let me use it for free. That was good. And the silver nitrate, it's like not that expensive because you only need like a really small amount of silver nitrate to make a lot of nano silver. So it wasn't that bad, but it was still kind of expensive. Okay, Podcast Host 19:55 now you're at the three m science challenge. You've got your project. It's looking all lovely and Beautiful. Were you happy with it when you presented it? Like, were you happy with the detail and the data and the research? Did you feel like your project was 100%? Good to go? 3M competition science winner worthy? Kara Fan 20:13 Well, before I joined the actual top 10 challenge of Minnesota, I thought it was worthy. But then when I went there, and then I saw the other site, finalists, presentations, they were all super complicated. Like, I didn't understand the thing. So after that, I was like, a little bit discouraged. But Podcast Host 20:31 I'm sure that we're looking at your project thinking, well, I've got no idea about ram bacteria. I don't even know if I'm saying that. Right. But you are creating some pretty cool stuff that I'm sure they will probably struggling to understand as well. So it's really, each their own, everyone's going to have their strengths. So how is the project evolved since winning? Kara Fan 20:49 Yeah, so I continued on. And this is kind of like, I kind of started like kind of a new project. But it's still like using nano silver and kind of like the liquid bandage, except I created another spray. It's really similar. And I could spray it on to like different surfaces that can kill bacteria. And so I decided to use this nano silver spray and spray on a face mask because it was during the covid 19 pandemic. And I thought it would be cool. Yeah, it could like help kill pathogens in the air through the facemask. Podcast Host 21:20 And how's that coming along? Kara Fan 21:21 Oh, that's going pretty well. Podcast Host 21:23 Right. Are Kara Fan 21:23 science fair? Yeah. I mean, I got first place for the science fair, Podcast Host 21:27 pretty good. First place? Are you still going into science fairs thinking that they're a challenge for you? Kara Fan 21:32 I think science fair is still a really big challenge to win. Because as you get into, like the older categories, everyone's projects are much more complicated and much more in depth. So it's like harder to win. But still going pretty well, though. Podcast Host 21:45 Has the project become commercially viable at all? Are you going to put it into production is like 3M interested in creating a nano silver liquid bandages? Well, Kara Fan 21:55 yeah, so I was first thinking of patent idea. But my dad said that he didn't want me to do that for some reason, because like, it would take a lot of paperwork and stuff like that. So right now I'm looking for like investors to make it an actual product. Podcast Host 22:09 How is it pitching to investors as a 14 year old? Kara Fan 22:12 It's pretty hard right now. I don't know. Like, a lot of people are actually like, reliable. And if they're, if they're not gonna, like take all my money and like, go away, right? Yeah, Podcast Host 22:22 yeah, it's difficult to figure out why. And how was this whole process change you and how you view yourself as a scientist? Kara Fan 22:31 Well, actually, before this whole process, I did science, but I didn't really do a lot of it. Like, I'd started like, the Science Olympiad. But I wasn't really that good at it. Because for Science Olympiad, kind of like a lot of memorization is kind of repetitive for me. Yeah. And I just wasn't good at it. So I kind of stopped that. And it really changed my view on like science overall, because there's so many possibilities, you just find a problem and solve it. I think that's pretty cool. Podcast Host 22:59 Now, I love that attitude. I think that's so cool. You find a problem, then you solve it. I know that there's a lot of students who are out there thinking, Well, I'm only 14 or 15, or whatever age they might be? Why is it up to me to solve it? Or how do I know that someone already isn't trying to solve it, or someone who already hasn't already solved it? You know, like, you might be reading the Scientific American, but it might be a day or two away from someone being like, hey, guess what, I've invented a nano silver liquid bandage or something like that. Right? So how did you I guess, have that conviction to be like, there's a problem, I can solve it not like there's a problem, oh, someone else will solve it? Kara Fan 23:38 Well, you don't want to wait for like someone else to solve it. Because right now, a lot of people are already trying to solve this problem. Like, there's so many problems out there. And there's so many different ways to solve it. And like, we're never gonna entirely solve the antibiotic resistance problem, just with one project, right? It's like a bunch of projects and bunch of ideas like combined together to solve it. So you can think of it as like your idea or your project is helping other people solve it as well. Podcast Host 24:07 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a very good way of thinking about it. But when you created your idea, did you ever think I'm sure someone else has thought of this already? Kara Fan 24:15 Yeah, I thought he would thought that already. Because like, nano silver, it's getting more popular right now. Now technology, getting really popular. But even though I thought people would already solve this problem, like, I thought that my project is really mass producible. And it's really kind of inexpensive. Yeah, like if we add all the ingredients together, it's pretty inexpensive. And it's really portable. And I thought, like, I haven't really heard of that before. So why not? Podcast Host 24:44 Yeah, you like if it's not already out there. Surely someone has not thought of it. Right? Because it seems like something that should be at their marketplace. So hopefully those investors do come and treat you well, and you can get something off the ground soon because it does sound like a project that could be commercially viable. Sir This year, you were a guest judge in the 2020 3M Young Scientist Challenge. Can you talk us through what that experience was like? And I guess how it was different to being a competitor? Kara Fan 25:10 Yeah, that was really cool. Because before being a judge, I got to talk with the top 10. finalists, and well, they're all amazing. And then, for the judging process, I had to review all of their projects, one by one before actually judged and well, their projects were really good. They're really complicated. And it was actually really easy to find questions to ask them, because there's just so many components to each project. And I just wanted to learn more about it. And they all answered it really well. Podcast Host 25:39 So what separates I guess, your your winners from you're not winners of a science fair. Kara Fan 25:46 But I think one of the most important things is that if your project is actually doable, like it's not so complicated, that it can never be done, right. Like, for example, like it should be, like a little bit simpler for people to understand. Because if you have like the super complicated project, how important is the title? Like how to, you know, to capture people's attention up front? Podcast Host 26:08 How important is it to have like, nanosilver liquid bandage, Kara Fan 26:11 bandage? Yeah, Podcast Host 26:12 right. Like, I know, I don't know anything about nano silver, I've never used a liquid bandage myself, maybe I should look into that. Right. But straightaway, I understand, I guess what that project is about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess that side of winning a science competition in terms of, you know, going right from the start in creating a title that is easy to understand, and people like, Oh, I can already find my way. Or I can learn more about this project just by the title. Kara Fan 26:42 I think it's a bit different for different science competitions. Because for the 3am, young scientist challenge, I think they're looking for a project that you know, everyone can understand. Because if you're showcasing it to the world, you want everyone to understand it. So should be like, kind of short and sweet, and easy to understand. But for other science projects, like the science fair, if they're looking for more PhD level projects, you can make it more complicated. And you can talk about like their protein, or what kind of cancer you're trying to solve. Podcast Host 27:13 Right? So it's almost like it's going by the complexity or the level of the competition that you're entering in. So basically, like your local competitions, maybe you should try and keep the terminology and the science of it fairly simple and accessible for people, whether it be other students or teachers or judges looking at the project. But the higher you go, the more complex your project needs to become. And they're kind of more it needs to appeal to, as you said, like that PhD level of science. Are there any other tips you would give for students entering into science fairs? Or the three m young scientist challenge? Kara Fan 27:47 Well, first of all, like science, obviously, it's really hard. And I know a lot of times, like if it doesn't work, like for example, for me, I actually did nano copper, I started with nano copper instead of nano silver. And for some reason, like nano copper I made it didn't work. So if your science project at first, if it fails, just don't stop, just continue. Because eventually it will work. She's got it try many different times. Podcast Host 28:13 You just got to keep on keepin on. Like if you know that, theoretically, it should work, then maybe it's just the testing side of things that needs to be fine tuned. Kara Fan 28:20 And don't be afraid to ask other people for help as well. Because referee and mentor, she really helped me and I asked a lot of microbiologist for help, like Just don't be afraid to reach out to people because they would definitely like want help you. Podcast Host 28:33 Why is that? Why would they want to help you? Is there something that is at your advantage when you're 14 years old? And asking for help? Kara Fan 28:41 Yeah, because I know a lot of professors are kind of, they're just really surprised to see like a kid interested in a science project. Because usually, like, we're interested in playing games, yeah. But yeah, they're like really surprised to see us and they really want to motivate us to continue to do science. So that's probably why. Podcast Host 28:59 Right, and now you're becoming a bit of an advocate. So it's kind of like taking your science project. And using that title as America's Top Young Scientist. Yeah, to help educate people talk us through your project, an Animal Crossing and how you actually created an island on that. 29:15 So it was during quarantine. And I found out that a lot of companies such as like clothing companies, and Gettysburg Museum, they actually used or even the Biden, Joe Biden, they used for Animal Crossing, to raise awareness or to sell their products kind of like for the Gettysburg Museum, they use Animal Crossing to showcase different pieces of art. And so I thought that was a really cool idea. And I kind of wanted to use Animal Crossing to raise awareness for antibiotic resistance, because it's a really fun and cute way to learn about something new that can change your life. And also Animal Crossing was super popular as well. Podcast Host 29:54 Yeah. So what does that even look like? Do you have to kind of code in an island like how do you even create an island on empty just submitted to someone, what do you do? 30:03 Oh, no. So I bought the Nintendo Switch. And I bought the Animal Crossing game. And I just created my own islands like, You're like a character and you just build your own island however you want just like I write, it's Podcast Host 30:17 like a game. I've never played animal. 30:19 Oh, yeah, sorry. The only difference is that from my island, I created a whole bunch of different posters and custom designs that talk about antibiotic resistance. Podcast Host 30:30 Wow. Okay, so people are coming through to your island and been like, see, for a good time. I'm here to, you know, play some games. And they're like, yeah, antibiotic resistance and learning at the same time. Yeah, that's cool. Talk to us about what the future holds for you. You're now still the America's young top scientists, you've got that title. They can't take that away from you. You're still working on your project, you've adapted it to, you know, try and fit COVID-19 as well. What's the next six to I guess? 12 months look like for you? 30:57 Well, right now during quarantine, a lot of different labs are not available when it is the most. So it's kind of hard for that. But right now, I'm working on another science project for next year. And I'm hoping that I could try to get into ISEF, or Intel science fair. So I could present my project there. Podcast Host 31:15 But yeah, I was working in check out I think Episode Five. That was our interview with the 2019 winner of ISEF, Krithik. Kara Fan 31:23 really? Podcast Host 31:23 Yeah. Kara Fan 31:24 Oh, wow. Okay. Podcast Host 31:28 One question I've got from students in the past is, how do you balance this all with your school? So you're a sophomore? Now, it sounds like this whole science thing is like a full time job. It sounds like it's a lot of work. You're creating Animal Crossing, you're advocating for science, you're still adapting the project. How did you balance this all during school? Well, Kara Fan 31:48 it's definitely been really hard. Like, I try to prioritize my science project, like before school, because I think school it's definitely like, my science project is definitely like, really important. And school is also really important. But I kind of tried to do my science project first, and then do my school homework. Right? Yeah, because I think like, even though school is high urgency, I think it's more important to do the important thing first, and then do my school homework. But I actually worked on my science project a lot during summer. So I tried to kind of do most of like the work during summer and kind of spread it out during the school year. Yeah, I tried to spend like around an hour a day kind of on it, Podcast Host 32:34 how you would recommend students to find problems, right? Because sometimes when you're in the bubble of school, it can be difficult to kind of see what else is out there in the Big Bad world and to kind of look at problems that you might be able to solve unless there's problems within School, which I'm sure there are but yeah, you didn't you You looked outside and Scientific American was one of those, you know, publications that really brought awareness to this issue. And obviously know what happened to your grandma as well. So, you know, I guess, can you give students a few tips as to, if they're looking for a science project to work on? Where could they go to find some ideas? Kara Fan 33:15 I think, well, first of all, you can look at your life like see if there any problems in your life that you want to fix. And it can be something that's inconvenient. Like for a science fair project, you don't have to solve like cancer or like any type of disease, it can be something like really convenient as well as like your phone or like, like a new piece of code or just like look at something in your life that you kind of want to improve. And for a Scientific American magazine, I read it for fun, and I just see like a lot of cool things on a magazine, and a lot of problems as well. Podcast Host 33:47 Yes. So if you're interested in science, yes, should be I guess, investigating and learning about the science of the day, because I feel like a lot of people kind of say, Well, I'm good at science, because I get top marks in my physics or I get top my chemistry exams. But the end of the day, that's usually like things that people already know. You're just getting toward or Yes, getting asked to regurgitate knowledge. So how is that kind of mental switch from being a receiver of knowledge to I guess, going out there and finding an investigating knowledge, like almost having that kind of investigative science feel to what you do? Kara Fan 34:27 I definitely think like investigating science and getting inspiration from like articles and like newsletters and stuff like that. It's much more interesting than trying to, like memorize like chemical equation or like this thermodynamics or something like that. It's just much more interesting because you know that you can help make a difference in the world instead of just like a Podcast Host 34:51 Kara, how can our listeners get in contact with you or follow along with your journey? 34:56 Yeah, so I actually have a website called antibiotics.org. And on my website, I just kind of put like my Animal Crossing Island in my projects and other things that like I'm interested in like, there's some ear infection projects and other stuff I'm interested in on my website. And I also have Twitter. So I have two Twitter accounts. My first one is just by personal account by car fan. And then the other one is my antibiotics account, my website and for my animal, flossing Island. Podcast Host 35:25 And also I got a wasp because obviously Crimson helps students get into universities. Are there any universities that you are looking at at the moment that you would be like, hey, that would be really cool for me to be out. Obviously, you've been on campus at UCSD a couple of times, that one of your goals or you looking at, you know, your Ivy League, what are your thoughts on universities? I know it's pretty young, you're 14. But yeah, you might be thinking that would be a cool University for me to be at. 35:49 Well, UCSD is really close to my house. So that's pretty cool. And they also have like transmission electron microscope and stuff like that. And I might want to become a doctor someday. So maybe like John Hopkins, or Stanford, and actually Stanford they have in Harvard to the mostly Stanford they have an antibiotic resistance, like campaign and awareness. And I thought that was pretty cool. Podcast Host 36:11 Yeah, that sounds like that's right up your alley. Right. Kara Fan 36:13 Yeah. Podcast Host 36:14 Fantastic. Well, it's been awesome chatting with you, Kara. Thank you so much for joining us the top of the class, it's been super interesting. Learning about how a project goes from a moment in your life, to reading an article to boiling kale in your kitchen at home, to then working your way through a science fair to working with a mentor to winning three a science challenge to now creating something that adapts to the current circumstances around COVID-19 and where that might take you in the future as well. I think it's awesome to kind of hear that full journey. So I'm excited to share this episode with all our listeners from around the world. Talk to you soon Kara. Kara Fan 36:50 Okay, bye.

Ep #11 Creating Global Impact Through e-Learning and Student Organisations

🗓 NOV 23, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with Daksh Chuchra. Daksh is the CEO and co founder of an E learning platform called Econocomics and the CEO of the international study ambassador program. We talk about setting up an E learning platform managing successful student organizations and his plans for after school. Let's check with Daksh Churchra. Hi Daksh, great to have you on the show. Can you tell our listeners a bit about yourself? Daksh 00:46 I'm Daksh. I go to Trinity Grammar School, I'm a year 12 student and I’m 17. Alongside my projects that I've commenced, I'm the CEO and founder of an E learning economics platform called Econocomics as well as the CEO of an international study ambassador program, a unique program of its kind catering to international study needs for all students around the globe right now. Podcast Host 01:10 Fantastic. Well, obviously, it's an interesting time for international study with COVID disrupting a lot of things. And we'll get into that soon. But just for our listeners who are all around the globe, you're from New South Wales, you're from Sydney. Is that correct? Daksh 01:24 Yes. New South Wales, Sydney. I've lived in Indonesia, and Malaysia prior to coming here to Sydney. Right? This came here last year. So it's a bit of international experience that I have. Podcast Host 01:36 That's great to hear. Now, let's talk about Econocomics. It sounds like it's very near and dear to your heart. Can you talk us through I guess why you set that up? And when you set that up? Daksh 01:46 Oh, well, yes. In fact, education has been pretty close to my heart traveled around the globe, as I've stated, and it's always disheartening to see like, young children on the streets, for instance, not getting provided an adequate human need more human right, in fact, of schooling. In terms of Econocomics, I started it last year, with a couple of my friends, because we used to tutor children, economics at lunchtime or recess. And it used to be really fun. Like, I wouldn't do it just for the sake, it would be like a tool for me to gain my revision. But it would also be really enjoyable, and nice to see other people enjoying the subject. But after that, I had to relocate countries as stated to Australia now, right? Like, I've always thought that education shouldn't stop like it's a human right, as I stated, and especially with COVID. Now, this elearning system has gotten like really argumentative, and it's become part of so many students lives right now. So I started even though I didn't start economics, even though I studied economics before COVID-19, I really started it just to help people around the globe. In economics, which is my favorite subject coincidentally, and putting one of those social needs as well. Podcast Host 03:10 Let's go to that week that was started. Like you're there with a couple of mates, you're all pretty passionate about economics. And you'll want to turn that passion into something that helps other students when you said you started tutoring kids, how old were the kids? And how did you get them involved? Daksh 03:27 Oh, well, they were not that young. They were, I would say 14 to 15 Podcast Host 03:32 You would have been like just a year or two older, right? Daksh 03:34 Yeah, yeah, it was like about helping the younger students who had just started economics, in my old school days to start, I think in grade nine, and I would have been a great 10 students. Okay, so I've had that one year experience, which is not a lot, but it was significant enough to, I guess, make a change or help these students struggling, but I got them to starting an economics club at school. So I was the president of that. But the demand got like so high that we actually had to start offering lunch and sessions and recess just to help these kids out. Podcast Host 04:06 So it was high demand, you had a lot of students coming in wanting to learn. Daksh 04:09 Yeah. there was. Podcast Host 04:11 Oh, that's awesome. And and was it teacher supervised? Or was it just something that you kind of like started with a couple of mates? And you know, didn't really check in with it? Like, did you check in with your economics teacher at the time? or How did the teachers in the school fit in with that? Oh, yeah, the teachers played a huge part in helping me start up but it was never a student led activity overall. So it was students engaging directly with the other students. And I think that's what made it so successful. Because it kind of deviated from that traditional teacher to student learning, which they had in classrooms. And we kind of put a twist on it. Like we didn't directly just like tutor them the content, but we would apply it to like, real life skills. What's going on in the news right now? How can you apply that and that wasn't typically taught in the Course at least that I was studying at the time. So how is it changed? From tutoring at lunchtime and recess, to now being economics, like an E learning platform that you are still part of, and still a big part of here in Australia. Daksh 05:09 Yeah, so it didn't like directly change. Like, we didn't go into this virtual tutoring thing. Instead, we put up like a plethora of resources on the website. But we didn't want it just to be like a typical, you know, study kind of resource place, we wanted to like, put some twist and make it engaging. So we added like, an economics humor section on our website, we post like current economics articles, so people can apply to their real life situation. And in the question to like, how it formed, I guess just after me realizing that I had to relocate countries, I didn't want to stop this process that I really enjoyed. So I just wanted to continue. And I like, one one time, my friend suggested Why don't we like open up some elearning platform, and that's how it started. Podcast Host 05:57 Okay, so how many people are actually in the team that you have like, as part of the the management of economics? And they are they Australia base? Or they some in Indonesia as well? Daksh 06:07 Well, it started off with five students, yes, like Indonesia. And now it's spans 150 team members around the globe. And I think a successful way to do that is like through advertising, not by like paid advertising. But maybe like a LinkedIn post would be great. It gets a lot of engagement, or people putting up on their Instagram stories, just the social media of nowadays. And people just by word of mouth, telling your friends Oh, I've joined this platform. But yeah, it really expands pretty quick. Podcast Host 06:39 And the students who work in economics, are they getting paid at all? Daksh 06:42 The amazing thing about this is all voluntary, you know, not a single dime is yet going out. It's not so much like they're only forced to do tutoring, because some people may not be comfortable tutoring. So it's more about like sharing notes sharing like flashcards that somebody has made some people like creating doomer jokes and stuff like that. So it's just like incorporating every buddy skills and putting them in where they can be used. Because, as I stated before, it's like doing this for a passion. If you're doing something you're not comfortable with and just resume padding, it's not really going to add the value, like Sure, it feels like what the goal or what the program does now is it kind of brings economic theory, which is obviously a theoretically heavy subject and brings it to life. Podcast Host 07:27 Right? You're taking real life examples, you're trying to put a few spins on it, whether it be the humour side of things I'm going to get this from economics memes that you've got going on etc. They've been shared around. And so it kind of takes the theory of the classroom and makes it more understandable and more digestible for students. Is that what you're saying? Is that what you see a benefit for students? Daksh 07:48 Yeah, the original aim was to do that. And it's like, kinda like, I've read a few psychological studies where they said, like, nowadays that students are more engaged with like visual devices, rather than the typical notes. So if we're trying to provide study resources, we do it in a wide variety of means, right? So that it's accessible to each student and caters to their needs. Podcast Host 08:09 Okay, so are you still very hands on with it? Like, how many hours a week or month do you think you'd be putting into something like this? Daksh 08:17 Well, the great thing about this is an online platform. So there are times when I'm like busy, perhaps during exam period where I can just leave it on, and the websites working perfectly people can manage. But there are other weeks when, for instance, like there's technical glitches on the website, or anybody's notes aren't opening up, then you get a bunch of emails. But yeah, those are some weeks where you have to do it. But if you're busy, it's great that I have a team that can always help me. So I'm putting perhaps I would say, one to two hours into that every week. Podcast Host 08:49 That's manageable, right? Like, hey, huge impact one to two hours a week. Did you ever see that? That was the potential of the program when you first started it that it could become 150 members around the world teaching tutoring students, I'm sure you've got a couple times more that in terms of the number of students who have been taught on the platform. Did you ever see the potential of that when you first started it? Daksh 09:11 Well, I didn't see the direct potential of growing that big like I thought is maybe like 20 team members around the globe would be pretty amazing to have, right? Yeah. But it just grew so big, and people felt so passionate into it. So I was like, yeah, it sure shouldn't stop growing, cater to more students needs, let more people help out because people, I think they enjoy helping students out. Podcast Host 09:32 Can you take us through some of the logistics of setting up an E learning platform, things like the website where the cost comes from those kinds of things, and how you went about, I guess, delegating that to other members of your team. Daksh 09:45 Yeah, so I haven't paid for anybody doing the website with a free website, platform maker called Wix. Podcast Host 09:54 Are you using Wix? Yep, sure. Daksh 09:55 Yeah. It's really great. It's really simple. I mean, I haven't done it all by myself. I've had a couple of friends helped me out. But all high schoolers, yes, in terms of making the website and when I think about the website, it's a gradual process. So if you saw my website a year ago, it would look completely different to what it is now. So it's just about adding steps. And the main thing is listening to what you're like, what my students are, what the people that use the website want, and how we can cater to their needs more, because you're never gonna have it perfect first time. That's just the reality of it. So it's always about evolving it. And I think it's pretty simple to make a website like it's not much coding in Wix. Also, I have done a bit of coding to make it seem a bit more flashy here. Yeah, in one sense, it's pretty simple. And I think the main thing is just having the content of what you want to start right before you go into the website, there's no point building a website to know where what you want to achieve through it. So my goal was initially to help students and economic system as simple as that, I think, once you have that vision can cater to your website's needs. And it's just about getting that mission vision, what you want to achieve to it, and then it just grows from there. Podcast Host 11:13 How much do you think you learned at school to get this off the ground? And how much do you think you have to self learn or other members have to self learn to make this happen? Daksh 11:22 Well, I had a very lucky experience of taking computer science as an elective in my home school. So I got that kind of coding kind of background, which definitely helped me performing the platform. And I think school plays a crucial role. But for instance, I'm not that good at art, to be completely honest. Yes, my friend should take art and who are especially they can work on the designs of, for instance, the logo, or Instagram posts or stories. So it's kinda about combining the skills that you learned from school and the things that you're passionate about that you learn at home by yourself. But it's about building from those foundations that you learn at school and evolving it into something like this. Podcast Host 12:00 So what have been some of the biggest takeaways for you? You know, you're probably thinking, geez, I'm actually learning a lot from this, that I'm sure employers would potentially really like to say, or, you know, as a personal development, it's had some great impacts as well. But yeah, what have been some of your biggest takeaways? Daksh 12:17 Well, I think my biggest takeaway is you can do anything by yourself. Yeah. Like a team is always a group of minds is always better than one mind. My opinion, it wouldn't be as successful as it is without my team. Because as I said, it's like catering to different skills that potentially I don't have. And other people can help me with that. So everybody's doing in their speciality in terms of key lessons, choose an easier name. Yeah, just a small thing, but actually had an incident where my notes were being sold online, for like money when they're published on our website for free. So they write so that was a bit of a hassle. But we're trying to fix that now by like, putting at the bottom, like in a footnote, these notes are available for free, shouldn't be resold for a monetary value. But that's just the reality of business and project. So this, I guess, it's your part of the real world now, and there are going to be challenges and obstacles that face your way, but never let them dishearten you always try to approach them. And if your friends because we're all high schoolers that are doing this, and maybe seek like your teachers advice, you have professional advice in this field, because they might have a better idea than you. And it's always great to get on the ideas. Podcast Host 13:37 Did you ever think of monetizing it at all? I mean, someone did. Someone obviously tried to monetize it. Have you ever thought about that? And why didn't you decide to go down that path? Daksh 13:47 Well, I would be like, say, I haven't thought about it. But that's definitely not the path I want to follow. Because right, the original aim was like, education for everyone, economics for everyone. And there's no point putting a monetary barrier between like, those who can afford stuff like this to people who can always stop that education should be accessible to everyone. So that's kind of the reason why I haven't gone down that path. But yeah, money does play a crucial issue. But the only amount of money I spent on this project is for the domain name, which was not that expensive. So it shows that you can go a long way without money in our current day and age. Podcast Host 14:24 Yeah, absolutely. Well, no, I think you've made a good call there and the students who are interested in starting a business, I think you should have a look at Dexter's story. But yeah, let's let's go into the other project that you're pretty passionate about as well, which is ISAP, the International study ambassador program. Can you talk us through I guess how or why you got started with the ISAP program? Daksh 14:45 Well, yeah, that's like similarly on that education kind of basis. And that I SAP is like, another free student, kind of LEAD program. And through that program, it like helps Students who want to go who have like an interest in international study opportunities to develop new skills and to see like, how we can facilitate and how we can add, tend to advertise. This international study that many students here, at least here locally in Australia did not have a thorough knowledge of. So it's all about bringing in that wider community to make sure they know all their wider educational opportunities. Podcast Host 15:27 A few of your extracurriculars are student run organizations, how much of that is a part of your decision making process when you're choosing an extracurricular to be a part of? Daksh 15:37 Well, yeah, in school, I do like debating Model United Nations club here and there, and they're mostly teacher kind of lead. Yes. Which I don't see a problem with. It's great. But I think just one subtle advantage of like student led, is that freedom that you're talking about? Yes. Like, you kind of have that idea, like you're exploring into the big world of what you want to do. And these I think, are, can be more applicable to like after high school and real life skills. For instance, with like economics, the people doing designing or in the marketing team, they can like, say that, oh, yeah, I've had prior experience in this. And they're taking the risk now, which will help them in the future, learn from it, whether it's good or bad. They'll learn from their successes and failures. And I think that will help them develop more as a character which school programs don't offer as much hope. But right, I think with the way society is moving, like there's a lot of more student led programs going on in schools, and high schools. So that's kind of incorporating the freedom that they have. Podcast Host 16:38 Fantastic. And now you were one of the very early adopters of ISAP. And that you were one of the very first members to join. Fantastic. Now you're one of the very early adopters of isef. In that you're one of the very first members to join, can you give us a little bit of an insight into how that may have changed the direction of the organization and how that has helped you to take more of a leadership role? Daksh 16:59 Yeah, so I was lucky enough to meet you. And then as well as Gerard is the current director doing great, but at the beginning of the program, I think I was the first ambassador to join the program. And those are really early days. Those were days of setting up like the platform or discussion ideas of how are we going to go about this, like forming an Instagram page versus a Facebook page? What should we include in those pages. And those were the really early days of like, brainstorming ideas, for instance, and coming up with the content that we want to post. And slowly after there, I think we inducted our first group of ambassadors, formerly known as intake one, which was like 2018 students around Australia who, and a lot of them played a part. But surprisingly, that kind of intake at the end of I think, a month kind of slipped down the road and just like stopped responding, most of them, which I've also had problems with certain team members in economics just like stop responding, like, maybe they're busy with something and it's fine. And it kind of like a roadblock in your kind of business or project aims. But we didn't like get deteriorated by that we got another intake intake to have, I think 25 more. And that was when the project really stood out. Took off, everybody was keen in that kind of intake, we're all collaborating pretty well, I got thing, my role got upgraded to head of marketing then. So I was leading a marketing team, kinda in producing, like how we can expand our followers on Instagram and our viewership, they went from there. And it was a gradual process, it didn't suddenly like spike up was all just a steady process going on. And now I'm the chief Operations Officer just got that role. And now I'm kind of looking at the overseas like international kind of operations and how each team is doing it. So we went from an Australian locally based programs now expanding to several countries around the globe. Podcast Host 18:59 Yeah, the content you guys create at isep is fantastic. So if you want to check that out and want to learn a little bit more about overseas study in the process, make sure to follow isep.hq on Instagram. But one thing I wanted to chat with you about was how do you not take it personally when someone signs up for your organization? But after say a week or so they're already kind of ghosting you, does that affect you? And how do you move forward from there? Daksh 19:24 I think that initial stage is always like that second thing that you mentioned, like oh, what went wrong kind of thing? Why are people leaving us? But as it goes, like, I think people just like drop out some states that they're busy with high school, which is fine. Some state that they're not really keen in this project and the way it's going, which I think is just a part of life for them to not take it personally. Because for every one student that leaves you there's another 10 that are still committing their heart to their project. Yes. So don't let that distract you in the way that it can and just take it on as like maybe ask them for why and how they improve it. But don't take it personally just try to learn from those mistakes, if any that has been made, and try to make sure it doesn't happen again. Podcast Host 20:09 Yeah, that's good advice. Now a big part of the organizations that you're involved in really rely on student engagement. What kind of advice would you give to students who are wanting to start or who are already part of student run organizations to help them maintain student engagement throughout a month, two months, six month period, because people's lives change and things happen? So how do you keep people coming in? And when people are in the door? How do you keep them engaged in the program? Daksh 20:36 Yes, I think in the student led programs, there needs to be a bit more freedom and like responsibility laid out on the students in terms of what they want to achieve through this program, like sure you have a mission in the program. But what did they want to do by joining this program? Is it that they want to develop a certain type of skill, for instance, you need to try to cater to their needs, as well as yours and kind of just incorporated into one. For instance, if there's somebody looking to join the program, for instance, if if they have an interest in international study, but also they're really keen artist, they can work more on the design team, don't necessarily put them in the marketing team, because you need more people to try to help on that side. So just help each student out individually. And it's more about getting to know them in a sort of community rather than a formal business kind of vibe that many high school students find boring nowadays, because I think, in economics, one of the first lessons I learned pretty early on was that they're your friends, not just your business kind of partners that are starting up this program, we need to treat everybody as a friend kind of a community, rather than going down that direct business kind of Oh, we lost this much followers or whatnot, it needs to be like a community. So everybody feels like they're valued there. And that's what I think drives the success of many of these student led organizations. Podcast Host 22:00 Yeah, and I think it's really important that students understand when they do join a student run organization, that it does differ a lot from a teacher run one, where often there's a set list of goals and a set curriculum, whereas like a student run, one has a lot more flexibility, but it also requires a lot more initiative. So how important is it for students to kind of have that switch to know that they no longer seen as a student in a student run organization, they are more seen as a designer or a marketer or a leader or someone who can actually be contributing to the overall success of the program? Daksh 22:36 Yeah, indeed. And it's kind of like it's for many, it's like a chain. So they're used to the high school and like, program going on. So as much as I hate to say it, there needs to be some like sort of rules incorporated in the overall program, like in terms of your language that you use, how you treat others, just a basic thing. So it's not a completely freedom, go for whatever you want kind of thing in the program, because to some extent, it does need to have an adequate, and it does need to be managed coming up from each student. But apart from that, on your note about like contributing, yeah, it's imperative that you let them do what they want to do, rather than forcing them into a field and let them pursue their passions. Because I think you can say on your resume, for instance, well, I was part of this program. But I think just my perspective, like many jobs, or even universities, they say, Okay, you've done that, but what have you actually achieved or done within that program? Sure, you can be just an idle member, but that doesn't really contribute too much. And I think, if you learn skills, like for instance, in the ISAP program, or economics, you can write that on your resume. And for instance, there's an interview, you can say it, and people might say, Well, yeah, I could just lie about that, like I could just get in the program. I do not do anything. But I think it's much harder to lie, at least in an interview when you're like direct and for instance, the interviewer asked you, oh, well, what have you achieved in this program? And it is stuttering a bit. And it kind of shows like if you done something, and it's really authentic, and it's true to your heart, I think be conveyed in a manner that is that resembles that. Podcast Host 24:12 Yeah, no, that's good advice. One thing I want to chat about as well as what's next for you, you've got your 12 and you're obviously part of the international study ambassador program. So you do have a strong interest in overseas study. Talk us through I guess, why the interest in international study and what you're hoping to do? Daksh 24:31 Yeah, so of course school life, I'm hoping to go study University overseas, particularly in the US that I'm looking for. There's some great educational opportunities there that I'd really love to have and gain an experience of that. went to Harvard pre college program and that like really set my foundation that Yeah, I want to go because they're kind of different environment to the typical Australian unis that offer they're more like students like their student contribution detective community as well. We're in Australia, at least a unit I'm looking for. It's like, Okay, you go to uni, like twice a week. And then it's kind of done from there. I mean, you get meaningful friends. It's a great college. Don't get me wrong. But I think I'm more disorientated on having like living on campus and partaking the student activities in terms of economics, and I sat, I hope that I can still continue with them throughout my college experience, and maybe even further, you never know. Yeah, Podcast Host 25:28 But one thing I just want to go back through, though, is we kind of glossed over it, you took part in a Harvard program? Daksh 25:35 Yeah, a summer school kind of thing. It was a great experience. It was like living like a Harvard student for two weeks and immersing yourself into that culture kind of thing. I was studying macro economics. Podcast Host 25:48 So you did a summer program at Harvard, in Boston, Massachusetts. And you're like living on campus for two weeks? It happened? Daksh 25:57 Yeah. And it was a phenomenal experience. And we were taught by like, the professional or Well, the Harvard unique lecturers. Yeah, no, it was like a small class. So you get to get directly interact with them. And I just found it exceptional and amazing. How did you apply for that? Podcast Host 26:13 Like, how did you get involved in something like that? Because that must be like a pretty sought after program by a lot of students from around the world. Daksh 26:20 Yeah, fortunately, it was before COVID-19. So I always like, we had that opportunity to travel overseas. But you just submit the form alongside I think your extracurricular essays, I think, five or six essays that you have to complete as well as a teacher recommendation. Right? So yeah, to get all of that, and I think they compile and choose their best to the candidates. And many people also say that, like it's financially kind of burden, which is completely true. But there are other programs like for instance, last year, I applied to Cambridge and got a scholarship, one of their essay writing competitions, was an economics essay, one through 10. coincidence. But yeah, COVID hits or it was a pretty, it was pretty disappointing that I couldn't attend. But I wanted to get kind of that UK also kind of feel about me and what it but I think now over like the last year, I've come to the conclusion that I want to go to the US. Podcast Host 27:15 Absolutely, I think it's it's great to open your eyes to what else is out there and kind of understand what life might be like not just necessarily the degree or you know, the prestige of the university, but what's life going to be like for three or four years on campus? But one question I have is how do you come across these opportunities? Is this something that your school is telling you about? Like these essay writing competitions? And the Harvard you know, pre college program or summer programs? Or are you following social media accounts are like how you learning about these opportunities, so you can apply? Daksh 27:46 Yeah, fortunately, for me, I was in Indonesia, I went to an international school. So that international opportunities were always there, right, like many people were applying to perhaps Columbia, pre college, or whatnot, so that Harvard kind of was from there. But when I moved to Australia, like I found there was a significant difference. There was not much talk about overseas, studying, but now through the international study ambassador program, and through me regularly talking to my like, career counsellor, or Yes, we've kind of tried to develop this international study kind of thing. We're not forcing anybody to study internationally, because some people just might not boy, just raising the awareness. Podcast Host 28:26 Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Daksh. It's been awesome having you on the show. For students who would love to connect with you, what would be the best way to connect with you? Is that LinkedIn or? Daksh 28:36 Well, yeah, I've LinkedIn and Instagram and a heap more social media, but I think LinkedIn would be a great way to start or an email would be perfectly fine. Podcast Host 28:44 No worries, we will drop a couple of links and emails into the show notes on the Crimson Education podcast page. We hope you have enjoyed today's show. We hope you have got a lot out of today's episode. Thank you so much, Daksh, for joining us. Hopefully, next time we chat you will be over studying in the US at Harvard or something like that, and doing your thing which would be amazing. 29:04 Thank you very much, Alex for having me.

Ep #10 Where a Passion for Science Can Lead You

🗓 NOV 20, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 Maha, can you just tell us a little bit about where you're from and your age and a little bit about what you do? Maha 00:05 Of course, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. Hi, everyone. My name is Mahalaxmi Some or Maha for short. I am a 15 year old high school sophomore, currently residing in Aurora, Illinois, but I'm actually from southern India and moved here when I was three years old. So I'm immigrant. I am someone who is extremely passionate about science, specifically anatomy and molecular biology, which is something I want to study in the future. I hold plenty of leadership positions on some of the main ones being the director of science for Athena by Wi-STEM, which is a Chicago based outreach program that helps under resourced high school girls get more connections in the STEM fields that they're interested in. And I'm also a legislative ambassador for the American Cancer Society, which basically means that I am working with Congresswoman congressmen, basically, anyone working at the government level to get some laws and acts pass that will help cancer patients in the future get the amount of medical care that they need at a sufficient price. Podcast Host 01:10 Yes, so it sounds like you're a busy student. And I know that sometimes a lot of students say to you, how do you fit all that in? And how can I be like you? We'll get to that in a sec. But how have you deepened your learning in that area since and is there any particular resources that you go to whether it be YouTube or whether it be some science journals that you can recommend? Maha 01:29 Right. So obviously, for me to understand science or biology as a whole, I really needed to take a lot of time on knowing like each part and each piece, so that when it all came together, it all made sense to me. So my first database was YouTube and just watching videos, I started with the Amoeba sisters. So basically, what they do is they kind of like simplify the whole concept of different things in biology, whether that be like DNA replication, or like the process of as cells multiply. So I learned my main ideas from there. And I wrote them all down in my science notebook, which is somewhere in my room. And I do believe that when if you ever want to self study something, or like want to start looking more into something, always keep a notebook and write everything down, like the main stuff, because then you can go back to it resell it again. And so my Belgian notebook was probably one of my biggest saviors I wrote in it every single day, just new facts that are found new stuff that sounds interesting to me, or stuff that I want to look into later. So I started with Amoeba Sisters. And then I started looking more on to the chemistry side, too, because it was starting the human body and like anatomy and stuff, you need to look at the biology part of it, and the chemistry part of it. So with that, I started watching the organic chemistry tutor, another challenge on YouTube. And that channel is absolutely amazing. They really walk you through step by step of how to complete chemistry problems or the concepts of chemistry. And that's like my main, like YouTube sources. I watch other various videos as well. But those are the two main channels, and then really learning about biology and chemistry and probably through Khan Academy, one of like the best resources to go to. So after I watched some videos, wrote some notes down, I started the high school biology course in Khan Academy, and then started work on the full on biology course. And once I finished that, I'm going to be starting the AP biology course on Khan Academy, even though that is a class that I will be taking senior year, so I'm pretty looking forward to doing that. Podcast Host 03:40 Yeah, I can see why some of your friends are like 'Gee, Maha. Like, yeah, you know, you're so determined, and you've got so much confidence in what you want to do.' And how do your friends treat you differently because of that, are they like, 'Oh my gosh, you know, you're such a genius?' Or do you just feel like you're just a normal student who has a particular interest in you know, a subject area? Maha 03:59 Well, there's a lot of aspects that go into the actually on I don't see myself as someone who's a genius, for sure. Um, I don't like to say that I'm talented, our like, I'm a prodigy or something. Because like, when I first came here to the United States, from India, I went to preschool where everyone spoke fluent English. And up until about, I was like five or six years old, I could not speak English. When I was starting out, I really had to just like, take my time with it, take it day by day, step by step, figuring out how to speak English. And then that also goes into any thing that I do in life. I would say that, like my talent would be my hard work because once I put my mind to something, I will do anything that I can to achieve it or to achieve that goal. Because that for me is how I feel proud of myself because I think that's so important to have that sort of like self love toward yourself and make sure that you feel happy about your own accomplishments and not just rely your happiness on how someone else feels about it. Like let's say your friends or your parents or Like what they think of you, it's about how you feel about your own accomplishments and what you do. I like to tell my friends, like whenever I get some sort of opportunity or get something in life, I like to say that it's not a big deal. And then they scold me later for it, they're like, Nah, why would you say it's not a big deal? Like that is a big deal. And you should be incredibly proud of yourself. But like, I am someone who has such high standards all the time. So I like to think of these accomplishments as like little stepping stones. So I don't see them as a big deal, because I'm like more of a big picture person and like looking towards the future. But I have such a supportive community around me, especially with my parents and my close friends, that they remind me that I should be happy about what I'm doing now. And that I should be proud of myself. And they keep me humble like that. And they also keep me super happy. So I really thank them for all of that. Podcast Host 05:47 Yeah, it's very interesting to hear more about your journey. And because I guess one of the reasons that we're doing the podcast is to help students understand what goes into the mindset of a student like that. And the hard work is obviously a big principle of yours, what encourages you to keep on learning, even after you've gone to school, you've done all your homework, you would be forgiven for just chilling out and relaxing. And so what drives you to continue being like, I want to try and do further learning and AP bio, and all the rest of it? Maha 06:18 Well, obviously, when I finished my work, I kind of give myself like, a couple minutes, just like breathe, like, be happy that I got my stuff done. But then it's like some sort of way that like runs through my brain. It's like, haha, like, you should be like learning more. And so I would say that I have a sort of love for growing as a person, I've, I always want to continue growing. And I never want to settle. I hate settling. And like, obviously, I'm going to be happy about something I do, or something that I accomplish. But I'm always looking towards the next thing, what I could do better with that, what I learned from past experiences, that could help me grow as a person as a student and as a learner. So that really like inspires me to always just keep learning more, I guess. And a symbol that like really, I love like that represents me is sort of like a butterfly, um, I love butterflies for a specific reason, that they're always seen as creatures that, you know, spread their wings and learn to fly and they grow. And they go through that, right. So um, I feel like if I were in the stages of a butterfly, I'd probably be in like the cocoon stage, I'm still starting out, I'm 15 years old. So I feel pretty young to like, start out. But I feel like, as I'm learning all these things from such an early age, that's going to help me so much in the future of spreading my wings and learning how to fly. And so I always keep that, in my mind the future on most people. Some people are like scared for the future, they don't really want to come. It's something that, like, bring some sort of fear or anxiety. But I'm someone who works for it. Because I know that one day, I'm going to be living the life that I've always imagined the life that I created for myself. And so it all starts by learning and continually learning and continually growing. And so I think that is what really motivates me to just keep learning just to find new things just to fill your brain with the knowledge that will help you later on. Podcast Host 08:19 Yeah, I love that philosophy. I think that's something that a lot of students could appreciate and understand. I guess it's actioning it right. You know, I think a lot of people understand that if they're going to have this feature that they want that they need to work for it. But sometimes it's easier to take the path of least resistance and just jump on Netflix or something right or to be on YouTube. And instead of watching like Amoeba sisters, you start watching out an old cat videos or whatever it might be. So no, it's great that you're I have this thirst for learning, which I think is super important. And it's something that I think a lot of people say, Well, you know, that's what you go to school for. But it's something that you can do on your own almost no more and and further and faster than anything else that school could provide. Do you sometimes find school boring? Maha 09:01 Um, I feel like there's always like in every student's life, there has been some points where they feel like, well, like why am I at school? Like why am I learning is like, is this really going to help them in the future? Um, so yes, I would say that I've definitely had some points where I felt like school was completely boring and like, especially now I'm sitting here in front of my computer for like eight hours a day because the Coronavirus cases in the US aren't really doing good for us. So students are still like remote learning and stuff. So yeah, there definitely been times where I felt like oh my gosh, I just want to like sleep. I want to relax and I do give myself that time to take a break from everything. Because it's so important to rest but to never like quit. So yes, I do watch Netflix. I do watch some YouTube videos, but that is only when I feel satisfied with the amount of things that I've learned and like the work that I've done. So I said let's sort of incremental goals, to get In a day, and that's when I give myself time to relax, Podcast Host 10:04 I appreciate that. And it's good to have that time to relax, I am going to challenge you a little bit on that idea of not quitting, though, because in my view, quitting is a very important part of a student's journey. Particularly if you see opportunity cost, right, you could be doing this thing, which is like super exciting, it could be the, you know, co director of waste em, or it could be doing your work in the Cancer Society, or all these amazing things, right. Or it could be going to orchestras or sport or doing your extracurriculars like within the school environment in that school context. So sometimes I think it's making you have to make some pretty important decisions around where you spend your time in high school. Have you had that experience before? Where you said, Okay, look, I really would love to take on this, this, this and this. But if I'm going to do that, then I probably need to wind back my time, or I probably need to look at quitting potentially this activity that might not be serving me so much, or has kind of like, you know, I feel like it's given me the development opportunity I was looking for. And now it's probably time to move on and try something different. So I have you ever had that experience where you've had to kind of sacrifice other things to do the things that you really want to do? Maha 11:13 Yes, of course I have. I'm someone who's interested in a lot of things, right. And so I always like to try new things. And I'm involved in a lot. But there definitely been points where it has just been way too overwhelming, especially my freshman year, during school was my first year of high school. So getting used to like how high school worked, and like the grading system. And then on top of that, I was in varsity gymnastics. So I had sports. And then I had extracurriculars. And so I had very little time for like taking a break, and like just breathing and just like relaxing. And so during winter break is when I had to like reconsider, okay, what out of these things is important to me, like what makes me happy, and what's making me grow as a person. So the things that I looked at were my extracurriculars. And what I was doing, there were some clubs that I had to drop, because I just wasn't giving it my all. And when I do something, I really want to put forth the best of my efforts. I don't want to do something halfway and be like satisfied with it. I always want to put in 100% 110% effort into it. And always make sure that I'm giving my all because then if I'm not then what's the point of doing it? Yeah. So I reconsidered some of the clubs that I was in winter break. And then when quarantine started is when I really got some time off from Sports to really focus on school and like what else I was doing with my time. And so I think that really helped me figure out what was important to me. And the most important thing, so I did have to write some emails to people saying, I cannot like continue with this organization or with this club. Thank you so much for like everything that taught me You're like given me. But I would say that Now's not the time for this. So I didn't have to go through that. And it felt. I'm like a sensitive person. So it felt I was sad. But I sent those emails and stuff because I didn't want to let it go. But deep down, I knew that I had to structure my time to be the most efficient that I was to, like, be the most productive that I could be. And so in the end, I think it worked out for the best. And I can definitely say that I've learned that sometimes it is good to quit, you know, sometimes you do have to just let things go in order to grow as a person. Podcast Host 13:39 Yeah, I think that's super important. And I think a lot of students will breathe a sigh of relief to hear that because it's something that I think a lot of students put pressure on themselves. And there is this kind of like taboo, I guess, around quitting things that you should never quit and that kind of thing. But sometimes it's it's not necessarily quitting in terms of like just giving up. I can't do this anymore, right? It's making a decision around where you spend your time. And I think there's a big difference between the two. One is kind of thinking that you should have persisted because you could have got there to the end. And the other is like, Well, actually, no, I really want to do X, Y, and Z. And I can't do everything at this particular point in time. So I'm going to pick up a few things. So that's good that you've made some of the decisions. I know a lot of students are interested in the academic side of things as well, and how your extracurriculars, particularly outside of school, which we'll get to in a second, I'm really interested in in your science writing, and we'll get into we stem and those kinds of things. But how have you continued to balance your academics along with all of these things? And is there ever a point where the scales have been weighed, and you've got all your other things going on around you and your great academics? And you're like, well, I got to try and consistent balancing act right about like how much I spend on my academics and how much do I spend on my extracurriculars? And I guess it also depends on what you prioritize, given that you are 15 and it feels like you know the end of school is a little bit of a way away. So maybe now's the time. to focus on these extracurriculars, like how do you approach it? Maha 15:03 Well, for me, it's all about blocking out my time. And consistently, having some sort of daily schedule that I stick to Google calendar is my best friend and planning out my entire day. And seeing like, what events have to do and what things need to get done. I have my handy dandy planner over here write down any important things that I need to get accomplished. And so there have been many points throughout like the past few months, and like the past year, where the scale has definitely like one has outweigh the other and it hasn't ended up well for either side. So there have been points where I knew that I had to focus really on my academics. So I couldn't give some of my extracurriculars like my all, but it worked out for academics, but didn't work out for extracurriculars. So it was always some sort of like lose win situation. But I've always tried to experiment what really works best. And so in the organizations that I'm in, or like the stuff that I do, they are extremely empathetic in how I manage my time, and they really give me a lot of time to get things done. And for most of them, I create my own schedule as well. So it's really up to me to decide, you know, when I want to start working on something, or when I should get my work done by, so I love that type of freedom that they give me and I'm thankful for them for that, that I get to make those sort of decisions, because that is something that really helps me balance that scale to the best of its ability, because teachers like they have their set deadlines, they can't change the deadlines. So with my extracurriculars, I love that I could, you know, set those deadlines for myself, depending on how my schedule was. And so it's all about time blocking, and knowing what you're going to do pretty much every single minute of every day, and really sticking to it. Because even though it's going to require a lot of work, and a lot of effort, it's all going to be worth it in the end. And like that's just what keeps him going, knowing that this is all going to be worth it. Podcast Host 17:01 So it's like, you've become a very efficient planner. Right? And it might as well write, like, not just a plan, because I think some people are great at making plans, but a terrible at sticking to it. And kind of knowing that when you do make a plan, what is the benefit of sticking to that plan, not just the immediate benefit, but the long term benefit as well. You know, I know it's cliche, but that knowing your why, right, and knowing your end goal. And so it kind of drives you to stick to that plan, whether it be an hour and extracurriculars or an hour of study. And this is this time block or this Google Calendar alerts popping up? Whatever it might be, right? How did that come about? For 15 year olds, I think a lot of people are thinking, Well, you know, my planning is decided by my school, and, you know, my parents do a certain degree, how have you, I guess, come to the conclusion that that's something that you want to own and have created against the system that works for you. Maha 17:55 Well, um, to my biggest supporters, my life or my parents, and since they, you know, were born raised up, and in India, they, when they came to the States, they really didn't know much about extracurriculars other than you know, focus on your schoolwork and get your schoolwork done. So they really, I don't feel under pressure, like by them. They love me, and they support me, and I love them for that. So they really helped me in recognizing, you know, what I should be doing with my time. And like, what's more important and like, they helped me prioritize, because I'm still so young. And I had to get my priorities in check. So that when I'm older, I know like, what's important to me. And so I love them for that. And I thank them for that every day. I feel like I love planning Actually, it's like come to the point where I like to sit down, like every Sunday evening, you know, listen to music, have some sort of like, I love tea. So I have a cup of tea on my side, right, and just like plan out my week and just sit here, write in my planner, Google calendars up, like I'm just planning and it makes me feel so satisfied with myself because I know what's happening every single day. And I know what's coming forward. So nothing comes to me like as a surprise. But obviously, I recognize that there are some points where things might get canceled, might get pushed back or something like that. So I respect other people's time as well. So I never want to do anything that you know, gets me in those sort of like difficult situations. So planning has like it's become a habit. And it's also something that I just like love doing, because it just makes me happy to know that I am getting my work done and I know what I'm doing. Podcast Host 19:34 Right. I love that that you love planning. I think it's a good thing to love. Right? You know, if there's anything that you should really enjoy, it's in it's the enjoyment of knowing what's coming ahead and having that. I mean, of course you have to have you know, chances for spontaneity and plans may change but generally speaking about, you know, about 90% of what's coming up in the week ahead. And I think that's a habit that I have tried and I my stick to itiveness isn't great. Sometimes it kind of falls by the wayside. So maybe I should pick that back up. But let's chat about Wi-STEM and your position there. Talk to me about how you got involved, what appealed to you, and what do you do there. Maha 20:10 So I first found out about them in about late May, I'm actually through their Instagram, one of my friends actually tagged their account in one of our Instagram stories. So I looked into it. And it was good to know that they're accepting applications. And so for their executive board, and so the application was doing like mid June, and I filled it out. And I was like brutally honest, because prior to that, I really did not have a lot of leadership experiences in organizations outside of like school and stuff. So I did say that I was new to this. And but I am someone who like, is definitely willing to work on a lot of things and grow and to put like, into commit to this to really commit to this. And so when I got my acceptance email, I was like, I, first of all, I was super shocked, because I didn't think I would get accepted, because there are a lot of people that applied. And second, I knew that I made a commitment. And that I'm super, I was super excited for it super excited to get started. And so that is basically the application part of it. And once we first got started, we had like a whole executive board meeting and got to meet all the other girls on there. And they were so accomplished. They all were amazing and super sweet. I felt a little bit intimidated, if you could say, by the other girls been by all day done. So I felt I did feel a little bit of imposter syndrome where as like any other student would at some point in their life. Yeah. But that is like when I definitely reminded myself, hey, like, you're here for a reason. It was like, we're here for a reason. So just make sure that you understand your why you know your why, and you know that you deserve this position. So that's just how I got started into it. Podcast Host 21:49 Okay, and what do you do in your role there, I know, it's a bit more like an advocacy role where you do it, waste them. Maha 21:56 So we some is like the main organization and for women in STEM. And you know, we said at the top right, and I work for Athena, which is a sub organization of waste them. And so it's Chicago base. So I loved that it was like really like in near my hometown and stuff. And so basically what we do is as co director of science, I'm basically in charge of making sure that I provide some sort of resources to the girls out there that don't really get it or don't really get an opportunity to have connections to professionals in fields that they're interested in. So by resources, I mean, like workshops, I mean, webinars, conferences, anything like that. So basically, how I started off is I look in two different professors at different universities, or different scientists all around the world. And I've actually met some pretty amazing woman in STEM with that. And it's really inspired me to look more beyond the fact that there's so much gender inequality in the fields of STEM. And it's really important to keep inspiring girls to be interested in those fields. So I really felt like my work did have some sort of impact, because all the speakers of the workshop so far have been truly inspiring. And they've given some great advice to people that attended. And so this is all free, because we don't want to put any like price on it. And we want to make sure that we're giving out the most opportunities that we could. And so basically, when we do host some sort of workshop or webinars, the speaker usually has some sort of presentation, where they talk about their field of study how they got into it, then we have like a panel, if there's multiple speakers, and the audience can ask any questions they would like, we always give their contact info after the workshop so that they can reach out to the speaker or like to us if they have any other like ideas. And so it's really gotten me inspired to work more for gender equality and stem because it's really opened my eyes to see, you know, there's so many people out there interested in STEM, but they're kind of like on the verge of it. They're like, maybe I should do it, maybe I shouldn't like and so I've been loving it since day one. And I am so happy that I get to be in this position. Podcast Host 24:08 Talk to me about how you reach out to professors. And I know that can be a bit of an intimidation factor for students. They're like, Oh, you know, if I'm interested in science, I would love to be reaching out to mentors and finding people to come and share their knowledge and experiences. Do you have any tips for students in that kind of initial outreach phase of how you track down the person that you want to speak to what you say to them in those early stages and how you kind of pitch what their involvement would be with Athena? Maha 24:34 Yeah, of course. So when I first started out, I was so nervous to send emails, I was like, I don't even know half these people. Like I don't know anything about them other than like their job and what they do. I don't know how it's gonna go. But really cold emailing can be such a big benefactor for someone if they ever want to reach out to a professor and see what type of work they do. Or if they ever just want to like chat with them. These professors are so nice. Like they really did have some Like nice manners toward responding to my emails and accepting my invitations to speak at the workshops. So when you do cold email someone, you don't want it to be like a long paragraph like that comes later if they respond, right, you want to be respectful, have a very like calm manner to you. And it has to be simple and sweet. Like it's straight to the point because professors get thousands of emails every day. And so to look through all that, they just need to see like, What do you want, and see if they can provide that. So if they do respond to that, that's when you can go into more detail, because now they've shown some sort of interest into it. So you probably when you do cold email somebody you address them being like, dear Professor of Law, my name is mahalo tree. So I'm the CO director of science for Dino my wisdom, then explained what the organization is about just like one or two sentences, then I asked them, if they would be interested in being a speaker, one of the workshops, and when they do send an email back, that's why I follow up with them, give them more info on how it's gonna work and see if they're willing to really like do it being like, short and sweet and get to the point in your email is probably one of the the top tips that I have to reaching out to someone that you're not really familiar with. Because that's when you know that they've shown like some sort of interested to that. Podcast Host 26:17 Right. Do you mention that you are either a high school student? Or that you're 15 years old? In that initial email? Maha 26:25 Um, um, yes, I actually do I say that I first started off by saying, I'm a high school student, because then they know like, what's the age group that they're working with, right. And then if they do, like go into, if they do want to know more about me, then I will say like, I'm 50 year old high school student, but the first female doesn't really have a lot of information about me, it's more about what I'm willing to look for in them. And then when I follow up, it's more information about me and what I do and all that stuff. Podcast Host 26:52 Do you think it is important to include that in an email? Do you think that there is some advantage in including the fact that you're a high school student in that email? Because I know, what I'm trying to get out here is that I think a lot of students will say, Oh, well, you know, I'm only a high school student, most university professors, or most professionals won't really want to speak to a high school student, has that been your experience, or has been the opposite where because your high school student, university professors are like, Oh, that's cool, that's great initiative, I'm gonna, you know, respond to this person and see where this goes, Maha 27:23 you know, um, so far, I haven't had a negative experiences, saying that I'm a high school student with Professor, because most of the time, they've actually been really impressed the fact that I am taking initiative, so early on, yep, to look into something that I'm interested about. So I'm extremely grateful for that. But I do realize that some professors, um, they're not really interested in working with high school students just because they're so young, and they have a lot to learn. But in those cases of rejection emails, you're not always going to get accepted or to get the opportunity that you want. And you just gotta go with the flow with that. And just always keep searching for more because because one day you are going to find like someone who's willing to work with you. And I think that's so important that we realize that we just have to turn a failure into our successes or just motivation to keep looking for more opportunities. But most of the time when when I am oppressors, when I chat with them through zoom and stuff, they are really excited to talk with me and get to know like, why I'm so interested in them. Podcast Host 28:23 Great. Yeah, I think that's a good tip that you really can't take rejections too, personally. And I think a lot of times, people, if they have that experience of sending an email, and the first two or three people reject them, then that can be like a terrible experience be like, I'm not going to send any more emails, but it might be the fourth person will he know, the fifth person who agrees, like, so you just got to keep going. I think there's a lot of students who've had that experience, I've had that experience before as well, where it's tempting to kind of say, Oh, this thing isn't for me after the first couple of emails or the first couple of times, but you just got to keep trying and refine your message, right? It can be the first emails too long, or you've got you know, your your emails ending up in spam or those kinds of things. Right. So you just got to check those types of things to make sure that you know, are they actually getting the email? Is it written? Well, those kinds of things are very important. Take us through, I guess, the science writing side of things, because you do a lot of that. What are some of the typical things that you write about? 29:20 So during the summer, I was actually part of girls in white coats, which is an organization specifically dedicated to women interested in in medicine. And so with that, I was an article writer. And so they were working on an upcoming magazine called scope, where they included different articles about different medicine related subjects and interviews with doctors and surgeons. And so I actually got to interview Dr. Deanna uthai, who is a breast cancer surgeon at UCLA. And so I got to do with her, and I wrote an article based on my interview with her, so she gave a lot of insight into like that what she does, and how she got there, and more into, like, what she researches, especially with breast cancer cells in the human body. So some of the topics that I write about our interviews, but then the more science part of it is when I'm really given just like a broad scope, any topics that I could talk about, or I could write about. So I did write an article on stem cells. And so for those of you who don't know, on stem cells are basically cells in the human body that can replace any type of cell, whether that be in the tissue, and they like self replicate, and they replaced cells needed, which is incredibly, just incredible the process that it works. And so I first heard about the topic in our theology, and I really didn't think too much of it. But when I started researching more on the fact that stem cells, and specifically, blood stem cells can cure different types of bone cancer and leukemia. That is like what really drew me towards that, because it was just a new discovery that was going on, and more research is being added to it. So I really wanted to write an article on what they were and how they could be used in future medicine. And so that was like the first scientific article that I wrote. And I was when I was researching on stem cells. And I was reading scientific journals and stuff. I was like, Oh, my god, they're just like, there's too many words. There's too many science words, I don't understand half of these things. What are they even talking about? I just saw a bunch of words relate to science that made no sense together. And so I got super nervous. I was like, oh, how is this read this article and get it done, actually understand what I'm saying? Sounds like people have a deep brush, you know, they are words, they have some sort of meaning you just have to understand what the meaning is. so handy dandy biology notebook, right there, wrote down every word that I did not know what on Google searched up, found the definition, watch some sort of video that explained what they were. And then the articles actually started making some sort of sense. And so when I read those articles, I used some evidence from scientific journals that I've researched online. And so I was really proud of myself when I finished the article, because like, Oh, my gosh, I finally understand what I'm talking about. And like what I'm saying, and so especially when you first start out writing any sort of articles, they don't have to be scientific, they can be any type, when you first start out, um, be open to everything. And don't be afraid if you see a bunch of words, and they don't make sense to you. Really take your time with learning what they mean. And really understand the concepts because that is how you can put your best foot forward in writing anything that you want. And so that's what I did, I took it step by step took me a while how to extend the deadline, like once, but in the end, I created a finished product that I was super proud of. And yeah, so that is how I basically wrote my first scientific article. Podcast Host 32:52 That's so good, I think it's a very important thing, to not be intimidated by that process, when you are 14-15 years old, there's going to be some things, you're going to kind of go over your head, right, and it's about writing down, researching them, figuring it out. And I think there's a interesting side of your story that I think compared to some of the other episodes that we've had on the top of the class, where you've got that kind of research science story where the students who are going out there researching and creating project and you know, science fairs and that type of thing. And then I think you're you're a fantastic example of I guess, at the literature side advocacy side, helping educate other people about it, how does that kind of fit in with what you're trying to, you know, that kind of persona that you're trying to put out to the world because I think, you know, if I look at your LinkedIn, it comes across as someone who's like a very strong science advocate, and someone who's very involved in the science world, but may not necessarily be entering into any massive science competitions at the moment. So talk to you, I guess, about the advocacy literature, and then the writing side of science and how that's as important as the kind of the research project side. Maha 34:01 Right. So um, I know plenty of students that are like, they created science projects themselves, done research based things or entered science competitions, or, you know, are part of Science Olympiad and all those type things and won awards and medals and stuff. I haven't done that. But I feel like my work is just as important because I get to see like the learning process of it, to really understand different concepts and to get all that knowledge inside of my brain. Because I think that's what I'm more intrigued to not worth the showcasing the competition side, but really kind of the behind the scenes stuff of how different topics in science work. Um, I've always, uh, well, not always because I just found out about it just like a year ago, but ever since I found out about gender inequalities in STEM and stuff. I've always wanted to just make sure that anyone who is interested in STEM any girl interested in STEM, really got those opportunities to do what she wants. Because like in high school, people start off by, you know, like kind of figuring out what they want in college, they do that. But then at some point after college, most girls have some, like, they feel the need to make the decision of, you know, settling down, like having a family or doing a job, which I think is mind blowing that, like if I seen the sistex that most people do decide to settle, because they want to create a family, and they don't think that they can handle the balance of, you know, their work and like their outside family. And so I really, with the speakers, I've invited, they really showcase the fact that, you know, you can do it all, if you really want to, if you are really passionate about something, you can do what you're passionate about, you can study any field of stem that you want, and you can still maintain a family, like lifestyle, and do it in a healthy way so that you feel happy. And so that they really inspired me to just change my whole outlook on how I view women in STEM, and how important it is for you know that gender empowerment right there, too, especially woman empowerment, to make sure that girls know that they can do it all if they want to. So that I love that part. Podcast Host 36:11 Yeah, super impactful. And I think, you know, it's one of those things that you're saying, there's a lot to be gained from inspiring the next generation and your generation really, to kind of get more involved in science and to say that that's a pathway for women, particularly to, you know, counter that gender imbalance. Talk to us a little bit about your role in the American Cancer Society. So you're a legislative ambassador, you know, when I hear about the legislative ambassador of the American Cancer Society, I would have thought that would been someone who's like, mid career professional type of thing. Me too. Yeah, right. Maha 36:44 That too, so I really wanted to become involved with the American Cancer Society for a while now, I've thought that they always had some sort of age limit, because, you know, cancer is just a sort of like serious subject. And they wouldn't bring, you know, high schoolers into it. But when I really started researching on the different like, roles they had, I found out what a legislative Ambassador was. And so basically, they are an advocacy volunteer for Americans Cancer Society. So basically, they basically have to influence government officials of their own state to really help the health policy part of it, because or the American Cancer Society to really progress as a whole organization, they need to get x pass and laws passed, and they can't do it without the help of their Congress people. And so what we do is we get in contact with them. And we really talk to them about how important it is to advocate for medical rights and medical bills and make sure healthcare is affordable. So it's really that part on making it affordable, and really making it a top priority at this point. And so they do require an application. So I did submit the application, it didn't ask for my age, so I really got worried. I was like, Okay, what if they What if I get accepted? They're like, Oh, you're 15 years old? I'm sorry, we can't take you Yeah, um, but I got accepted and still super shocked. I was like, Oh, my gosh. So basically, Emily Hall, who is the main poker advocate for the Illinois section of the lead investors, she caught me in touch with a woman named Judy, who is like one of the main heads of American Cancer Society, and they wanted to do an onboarding call. And so I was like, tell her, you know, I'm only in high school. I, I was nervous about it. And so I called her we talked, it was amazing. She was such a kind, supportive person. And so near the end of the call, I was like, Judy, just to clarify, you realize that I am in high school. I don't know if I said it before. But I am like a high school sophomore, and she was like, That is amazing. Like, we don't have an age limit here. And she did say that there was a seven year old working for the American Cancer Society. So they really don't have a limit. And I think that's amazing, because they pretty much accept anyone who's willing to work with them. And so it was like, just like a moment of relief. I was like, Oh, my gosh, yay, I finally get to be part of this. And so she talked to me about how important it is to have more young people. ization. So that one, they can have more like commitment to it as like, they grow older. And too, it's so important to get generation Z's like views on this and like how they can really help. Because, like our generation is the future generation is like, we're gonna be like the main people, and like a couple years and stuff. So it's important for us to really understand current issues that are happening just locally and like inside of our state, and then really get to help impact what laws be passed in Congress. So when I first started, I really had no idea what I was doing because I wasn't a big government person didn't really know much about it. But the ACS really has such a supportive group, a supportive team, they really help you figure out how you're going to like contact the Congress people how you're going to like get in touch with them. So so far I've only like as like a first year kind of thing you like start writing emails, and then you get into calling and like meeting with them. Ideally, you would like to meet with them in person. But especially now it's more on talking to them through zoom finding some sort of time in their busy schedule that they can take to really talk with us. And so we can get our ideas across to them. And so that is basically like a summary of what I do and how I got into it. And I'm so excited to work for them. And it's really been such an amazing experience. I've learned so much. Podcast Host 40:33 Yeah, it's a great organization to be a part of. And I think you mentioned earlier on that it was one of those organizations that you really wanted to be a part of, why did you choose ACS as like that goal organization? Like if I really want to be a part of ACS, what did you see in ACS that you thought and I guess any organization that you join, right, where you're like, yes, this organization is something that I'd really want to be a part of, and I think it could fit in with everything else that I do. What do you look for in an organization where you decide to submit that application? Maha 41:03 Well, similarly with ACS, I personally don't have a personal connection to and love cancer. So they were particularly interested in why I chose to be part of them, because most people that are part of the organization has some sort of connection to someone who is suffering with suffered from cancer or you know, has passed away because of cancer. But for me, it was really more the focus, like advocacy side of really just fighting the people that needed the help. And for me, it's more about the impact that I have on other people, then, you know, like, what accomplishments I get myself, because I do believe that like, my purpose is to help others and to give love towards others. Because that is what makes me like, happy. That's what makes my soul content. And so that's what draws me to any organization, I want to be a part of, really, because most of the organizations that I'm part of, they have some sort of pattern, they're more like all on the advocacy side on and like what we can do to help others then to, you know, help people that are just a part of it. It's about what type of work can be done, so that others benefit from this, and they gain some sort of advantage from it. And so that's really what drew me to scan, what drew me to ACS and the way we saw them that they all were doing something that had some sort of impact on other people. And I wanted to be a part of that change. So that is like, that's what I look for when applying. Podcast Host 42:32 Right? So yeah, it's like the impact that that I could have within this community. And also, it doesn't kind of fit with my philosophy or my principles about what I want to do in the world. And it's fantastic way to look at it. And I think that there's a lot of organizations that are out there that are probably open or very open to having high school students, actually, a lot of high school students might not think that that's a thing they can get involved in right now. So does it kind of like once you start entering that community that these opportunities start popping up more regularly for you? Maha 43:01 Yes, yes, of course. Um, it all started with Athena seeing what type, like what other things that girls were involved in, and other accounts that Athena followed as well. And, um, I really got more interested in like, the different stem organizations. And so um, the way it communicates mainly is through Instagram, but then their second platform is through slack. And so we have an external slack group. And they have different channels. And in the channels they have one of the channels is named opportunities, or like extra stuff. And so basically, anyone a part of the channel can post any sort of opportunity that they have found, that other people would be interested in. And so with that the members of, you know, got me introduced to more channels that were a part of slack that I can be a part of. And so I'm currently part of like 10, slack channels, they're all mainly geared toward just shouting out any opportunities that they receive. And so I feel like once you start looking, and you find something that opportunities just gonna find you like 1000 more, you just keep looking. So it's like just starting, you just got to start. Podcast Host 44:08 Yeah, I completely agree. And I think slack is a very interesting tool that I've heard a couple of students are using very, very well. Now. It's amazing, because I think six months a year ago, I don't know how many students would have been on Slack, but it seems like that no risk skyrocketing, I've got slack as well. So for students out there who want to join these organizations, how do they go and find them on slack? Obviously, they need to download the app. I know that sounds like a basic question, but they do they need to be invited or they need to be a member or can they just search them up. Maha 44:35 So really, where it starts by joining a slack community is through Instagram. And so most organizations have some sort of like link tree in their Instagram bio, where one of the links is to join our slack community. And so that is how I started to join a lot of slack communities is through finding accounts that you know, were geared toward like my philosophy and like what I wanted to do And then joining the most of them really did have somewhat like a slack community. So I did join that. And then I daily, I check slack and I see a bunch of opportunities and anything interested, like I sign up for it, whether it be like a workshop, or if anything's interested in my friends that like, would be interested in that I send to them, because I think a lot of students kind of, like, get protective of like, what opportunities they received, like to keep it to themselves. But I really just want to share everything that I can to my friends and really like help them out because I know that they have like a lot of interests as well. So it's really just about like finding on a, like a link tree to a slack community joining it. You don't need any invitation of some sort in most cases. But if you work for like a specific organization, their their community might be like locked or invitation only. So that's when you would have to like apply for it and like join it to officially be part of that suck. Podcast Host 45:59 Right? There might be an internal and external one, right, the external way you can join without being a member and the internal one you need to become a member to join. Yeah, well, that's cool. I think a lot of students should get on to that. As I said, like, it's literally just through the course of doing this podcast that I've learned that apparently slack is a thing for students. Yeah. It's like, just in America, I think, obviously, it sounds like a popular thing for students in America, I have reached the day kind of here if it's a thing for here in Australia, or New Zealand or anywhere else around the world. So if any of our listeners are on Slack, tell us where you're from, like tweet the host, you'll see my Twitter handle in the show notes there. I think it's an interesting phenomenon to see who's on slack at this point. We also chatted a bit earlier before the call about that idea that you really hate when people say how can I be like you and write seeing you as I guess that role model or unattainable role model? In some respects? I guess I'm like, Oh, you know, how can I be like you? I think they probably say it as I guess a compliment? Maha 46:57 I know. Yeah. Podcast Host 46:59 Yeah. Why? Why is it something that you don't particularly like to hear? Maha 47:02 Well, um, first of all, like, I'm extremely grateful. And they say like, I do feel some sort of pride that they view me as that sort of role model. And think of me like that, like, they think of me so highly, that they are asking, like, how to be like me. And so I do say, Thank you like, that's like the person that I say, right. But I feel like every person, every single person should try to become their own person. And yes, I have my own role models, I have people that I look up to, but really the whole sense of like, following someone's footsteps and doing like exactly as they do to try to become like them. I don't believe that philosophy at all. I'm not one for it. Because I feel like everyone has their own individual, you know, talents and like stuff that they're passionate about, that they should try to, you know, immerse themselves in, rather than their role models, or like the peers around them. And I know plenty of students and myself have experienced some sort of imposter syndrome, feeling that we're not good enough compared to people around us, even though we work just as hard to be there. But that kind of just plays into like, when people ask me that, I always tell them, thank you so much for saying that. But it's not about how to become like me, it's how to be the best version of you. Yeah, it's how to really, how can you as a person grow internally, and then show showcase the extremely, so you can inspire others to do the same with themselves? Because in the end, it really is about how satisfied and how happy we feel with ourselves, rather than trying to, you know, become someone else? Yeah, Podcast Host 48:35 I completely agree. I think there's a lot of people who try and copy and paste success, particularly at the student level, right? They see someone who's got great scores, or great university admissions or a great career, and they're like, how did they do it? And how can I do exactly what they did? And how can I kind of like copy their life? Right? What habits do they have? And what do they do here? And what do they do there? And it's very interesting to kind of reflect instead of trying to copy other people just kind of go internally a little bit and say, How can I make the most of my talents? And how can I really make the most of my potential and spend more time discovering that and who knows, you might actually go on to achieve even more than the people aspire to be like, Maha 49:15 Right? So I always like say, take everything with a grain of salt, you know, someone will tell you to, like, try out these habits or like trout that day routine. Try it out, definitely but modify it to what works best for you. Because in the end, you're the only person that knows yourself the best and so you know, what works for you and what doesn't, and what you could improve on and what your strengths weaknesses are. So use that take everything with a grain of salt, don't take things too personally, and really figure out what you want for yourself rather than how you can become like someone else or what others want from you. Podcast Host 49:47 That is good advice. Well, what's next for you? You've got a lot of things going on. But yeah, what's next and what what is the future hold for you Maha? Maha 49:56 So especially with the election happening and stuff, it's definitely gonna change some of the policies that we're looking for in ACS definitely, because that's more like the political side of things. But other than that, I'm going to keeping apartment organizations of any opportunities come up, I'll definitely take them. I actually just received a mail yesterday from the National Student Leadership conferences. And thanks an invitation for me to attend that conference, the summer of 2021. And by doing so, I will receive a $20,000 scholarship. Podcast Host 50:34 Did you apply for that? Maha 50:35 I didn't, that's the thing I received in my mail and seeing that they like all the information about me. And so I was generally shocked. First of all, I was like, how do they even know me, but then I felt extremely grateful for having that. So I will definitely be going to that for the summer 2021. And, yeah, it is major long term goals. I'm such a science nerd. And I will definitely keep learning more about North your biology and really being interested in that. Um, I want to go to Oxford. I really do. And I'll be working towards that Podcast Host 51:09 Amazing. Why Oxford? I mean, there's some fantastic universities not too far from you, that you Chicago a couple other amazing unis. And then over on the East Coast, and the West Coast, like the US has some amazing institutions. Why the appeal of Oxford for you? Maha 51:23 So Oxford, it's one of the best universities in the entire world. And so especially in the medical program, I looked into it and stuff, the goal is not to do medical school there, but to start to study molecular biology there, and then do medical school in the United States. First, a change of location is always great, even if though, like it's almost halfway across the world, but setting there with professors that you know, they do research like outside of what they teach, and they're doing some, they're doing leading research right now that can mark new discoveries in the medical fields, especially the fields of biology. And so working with people like that, I think it's really gonna inspire me to just like to keep learning and keep growing. So the professors, they're really just incredible people. And of course, they're like, incredible professors here in the US as well. So, yeah, but Oxford, it's just, it just feels like a magical place just to be in and just to learn about everything, I really want to visit London and to go to the UK. So that's always been like a dream of mine, ever since I was a little kid. And so yeah, but I'm definitely applying to other colleges in the US, such as the ones nearest to me like Northwestern in Chicago, because they're obviously amazing as well. So, but there's always just that you, I feel like every student has some sort, like special connection with like a place or like University. And I felt that with Oxford as soon as I started looking into it. And now it's just like one of my biggest goals to get into there and to attend. Podcast Host 52:53 That's awesome. Well, I'm sure that if you work at it, and you know, I know the application process pretty well actually, as a result of crimson. So I know that, you know, the interview is a really big challenge. And I'm sure given that we've just chatted, I'm sure you do very, very well in that. Maha 53:10 When you truly find something you're passionate about, you have to showcase that to like admissions officers and colleges, really diversifying yourself on that specific topic. And just learning as much as you can about it. In the end. Yes, awards and competitions and winning them are great and stuff. But if you really like love the subject, and you're willing to, you know, advocate for it, or to learn as much as you can about it, that will be showcased, whether it be throughout the interview, or throughout the essays, or like when you submit your application, you could talk about those experiences. So it's really about finding what just gets your mind thinking, what makes you curious, what makes like, what's the thing that you just could keep talking about all day, or keep reading about learning about all day, and you wouldn't get bored for a single sentence. So that is just how that's how I feel towards science. And that's how that's like the type of love that I have for it. I think that's what's kept me going on for this long and to really learn that much more about it. Podcast Host 54:13 Fantastic. Yeah, I think that's a super good advice. I think a lot of students should take that to heart particularly because yeah, as I said, like those students who do great in the subject, I'm like, don't stop there. You're graded a subject. If you're getting top scores. What else do you do? And they're like, No, I just do well in school right? And like that's really just scratching the surface of what your potential could be. I mean, yeah, start doing your own research enter a science competition write about it, advocate for it, join an organization start your own organization like seriously like a good school is really just the start of I think how students should think about a subject they shouldn't see that as the end goal. They should really see that as like the starting point for further advancement in that topic, but learn AP bio was Something you know, do a whole different subject on a real study study ahead of your grade level and do all these kinds of things. I think a lot of students kind of just settle for, as you said earlier, like, Don't settle. And that's something that you keep telling yourself. And I think that's so important, because I think a lot of students settle when they know they're getting a good score. And that's like, right where they stopped. Whereas that should really just be the starting point for more learning and doing other cool things in that area. Maha, thank you so much for joining us on the top of the class. And if they want to connect with you, what would be the best way. Maha 55:30 You can connect with me through LinkedIn and through Instagram, reach out to me, email me, I am open to any questions or any things that you guys would like to be involved in the I am to share any experiences that I have. So I would love to connect with each and every single one of you. That would be amazing. So yeah. Podcast Host 55:47 Perfect. I will send those in the show notes. But again, thank you so much for joining us on Top of the Class. Maha 55:52 Of course. Thank you. Podcast Host 55:53 Thanks, Maha. bye.

Ep #9 How a 17-year-old is Helping Thousands Fight Phone Addiction

🗓 NOV 19, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with 17 year old Gayatri Rithe. Gayatri is tackling hit on the very real problem of technology addiction by creating a tracking program that already has more than 4000 downloads. She talks about the research she did acting on feedback and how she used the project in an Ivy League application. Let's chat with Gayatri Rithe. Can you please give us a quick introduction? Maybe start off with your name, your age and where you're calling in from today. Gayatri 00:49 My name is Gayatri Rithe. I'm 17 years old. I'm a senior in high school and I'm from Cupertino, California, Podcast Host 00:56 Cupertino. So what's nearby Cupertino? Can you give anybody a bit of a frame of reference there from our listeners from around the world? Gayatri 01:03 Oh, we have Apple headquarters and then like 20 minutes away, we have Palo Alto. So the Stanford campus and then I'm nearby. We also have Santa Clara University. Podcast Host 01:12 Okay, so a bit going on down there. And it must be pretty inspiring. been fairly close to Apple headquarters. The spaceship that big circular one, right? Gayatri 01:20 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've been there once, actually, because my dad works at Apple. So um, they held like this thing where he could bring your family there. So I mean, my parents went, Podcast Host 01:29 What was that? Like? It was? Gayatri 01:31 It was amazing. It's like, it's like, you're talking about the big circle one, Podcast Host 01:34 right? Yeah, yeah. Gayatri 01:35 Yeah, it's so cool. Um, it was like three stories. But like you say, like, you're saying on one side, you can see everything on the other side. And then the middle, they have like, like a little mini Park. And then they have like food, it was really nice. Podcast Host 01:47 Yeah, I've heard it's like a beautiful workplace. So that's awesome that your dad works at Apple. Now we're here to talk about your work on something called the looking glass program. Can you talk to us a little bit about what that is and how it got started. Gayatri 02:02 So looking glass program, it's a 14 day 60 page program that helps you reduce your screen time. So it can be used on your phone, your computer, like any kind of technology device you have. So it started when the quarantine started, like it was around March when we got the time off from school and online school. And my screentime increased so much. I talked to my friends and like everyone's screen time increase, because we're obviously spending more time online, like with school, but it's also very hard to focus, like everyone's on their phone more. A lot of my friends started using tech sophomore, and everyone starting to like the people I talked to you, me and myself included in there, we're all struggle with like taking back control of their technology usage. So I started looking at like online programs. And then I also took psychology A and B, like, sophomore year. So I was wondering, like if I could create something to like, help you reduce your screen time. So that's how I got the inspiration from local loss. Podcast Host 02:59 Is it touch ironic that you're looking to reduce screen time and your dad works at Apple? Gayatri 03:04 I like to think about it is like using technology but like still having control over it. You know? Podcast Host 03:10 Okay,so talk to me about that feeling of losing control over your phone usage. Because you're not alone. I have also battled this as well. And I have my iPhone sitting here just near me. And I went through through a very similar thing. I think a lot of our listeners have probably done a similar thing where during lockdown, a screen time went up considerably. What did losing control feel like to you? Or what was that kind of moment where you're like, Hey, this is getting crazy. My screen time is ridiculous right now. Gayatri 03:40 I want to say like the third week of online school. So like first two weeks, we were still getting adjusted to online school. And then like an online school, no one's really checking you. So in school, like you can't have your phone out when the teacher is talking, because obviously they can see, but always feels like we have our cameras off. So I'd always I'm the type of person who like browses social media when I'm bored. And I started doing that during class. And I got to the point where it's like the teacher says something important, but I didn't realize it. So what I'd be like, texting friends, like ask me what happened the class even though I was in the class, and I still like I started feeling myself, like lose control of like, schoolwork. And I'm usually really on top of schoolwork. And that's when I realized like, I need to get some control. Especially because we didn't know how long quarantine was gonna last. Podcast Host 04:22 Yeah, so what did you try? I mean, there's a lot of different things out there to reduce screen time, whether that be apps or locking screens, or whatever it might be, what are some of the things that you tried to get your screentime down? Gayatri 04:34 So the first thing I tried was just deleting social media. It worked well for like a week or week and a half. But my friends like we always send each other like memes on social media or like things are really relevant, like trends. So I felt so out of loop and then like, there's also like FOMO like fear of missing out. And because everyone's spending more time on their phone FOMO increased a lot for me too. So I redownload social media and I was like I'll just use it for like a day. to you to catch up and it stayed. And then I also realized that like deleting social media doing the distractions are good long term solution because I needed to learn a balance. So I started using Apple has like this built in stuff for screen time. I started using that. But it was very, very easy to override the password. I just like I click five more minutes, and then it just keep adding. Podcast Host 05:22 I do the same thing. 15 more minutes. 15 more ignore for the rest of the day. Yes, go for the rest of the day. Yeah, totally. No, I do it all the time. Gayatri 05:30 Yeah. So then I start looking at some apps like the apps like flora, where you're like, you're supposed to spend like 25 minutes off your phone, and like, you'll start the timer, and then they'll have a plant grow. And then your goal is to like spend 25 minutes off, and then your tree will grow if you do so I tried doing that. And it was like good when I was working. But I also wanted to be able to like use my phone for like recreational activities without feeling stress. And I couldn't really use like floor when I was using like my phone on like, tick tock or social media. So none of those worked. So I started looking at like programs. And then this isn't exactly related to screen time. But there's this program called Before 5am. And it was kind of just getting your life back on track. And I got that program. It was I think it was like $90 or something, it was a PDF. And basically, it kind of walks you through what you can do to get your life back on track. And they made it like kind of personal to you. So it's like the program varies depending on the person. I was like, if we had something like that for like screen time usage, that would be very helpful. I that's what I got the inspiration for lip gloss. Podcast Host 06:34 So it was the before 5am program that you found, and you're like, this is cool. This makes sense to me. How can I change this to fit the screen time? That kind of issue? Did you chat to any of your friends about the idea when it first came up? Gayatri 06:48 Yeah, so um, I had the idea. And then I started interviewing a lot of my friends. So I just open on my phone and I go through, like every contact I had on my phone. And I asked them what their screen time was, what they wanted their screen time to be, which apps were taking up most of their time how they felt when they were on their phone, what they've tried in the past. And they're like, if they had like any, like things that would motivate them to stay off their phone. Like I'd run through those interviews, then I'd like kind of tweak the plan. And like create my own version. And then I'd ask them the questions again, but like on make it more about my plan. And then like, just keep tweaking and type is something that I like. Podcast Host 07:26 What kind of patterns did you see as a result of those interviews? Gayatri 07:29 Okay, so social media apps that people spend the most time on Instagram, Tiktok. Well, many people said, like everyone said that they went to their phone for like, relaxation. Well, a lot of people said that they felt stressed while they're on their phone, because they felt like they were in control. And a lot of people said that they put timers to put their phone off. Or they try to use apps or like Apple screen time. But they said that all those were easily override it. So the main thing that I got from the interviews was the lack of control over their relationship with technology. And what kind of screen times are we talking here? Podcast Host 08:01 Are we talking out of a 24 hour day we're talking three, four or five hours? Are we talking like 10 plus? Gayatri 08:09 We're talking six, so like nine hours on their phone, and they wanted their goals to be like three to four, when I talked to them, they thought it would be impossible for them to get to like an area would spend three to four hours on their phones, which is actually a lot if you think about it. Podcast Host 08:23 Yes. So talk us through, I guess the Looking Glass Program? How did you start writing it or planning for it? You know, obviously, you set out with this goal of addressing an overarching goal of bringing down screen time and bringing back control to people's relationship with technology. How does that look like in turning that into a program? Gayatri 08:43 So I mentioned before, like I took psychology in sophomore year, and like I remembered how they talked about like changing habits and like positive and negative reinforcement. So originally when I created it, when I did these interviews, I was thinking about building an app. And then as I started building the app, I was like I think a PDF program would be more useful. Like I studied psychology, and then I also read some books like there was like Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport and they talked about like relationship with technology and how like many people out of control with the relationship. And then like programs like before 5am so what I noticed about before 5am that I really liked was they'd have like one or two sections where it's spending like talking about what motivated you as a person. So that made the plan a lot more personalized. And it also like gave people motivation to stick throughout. So I started creating the program. Um, so in the program, like it starts off by analyzing what you have right now what your screen time is how you feel on your phone, and then like identifying what you got, that needs to change. And then after that, it has a session that talks about your mini goals. So like goals you want after these 14 days and then like your overarching goal, so like goals you want, like five years down the future, and then like looking at how your current habits are gonna perform or impact these goals. So a lot of people, they spend a lot of time on the phone and like many people don't think about the long term effects. It has. So like, if I spend one less hour a day on my phone, it doesn't sound like much. But then like, when you look at it, the hours really add up. It's like it's huge for making progress. So there's another section on that. And then there's a section that identifies what your current system is. And then like, why it's not working, and then rewards you can like, give yourself throughout this program to keep you on track. And then there's like two parts of the plans. So there's one on like, your screentime usage, but there's also one on like establishing an everyday routine. So you have more control of your life. So this would be like, a morning or night routine. And it can be something like really simple too. But making sure that you have that it like helps you select control, not only in your phone, and like technology usage, but your overall life. And that makes it easier to gain back control with your technology usage. Podcast Host 10:45 How long did you have to test this program out for because I know that you've got some people already using the program and who seen some really good benefits and results from it? What was the testing process? Like because you're trying to put this program together, it has, by the sounds of it a lot of different elements and a lot of moving parts? Can you just talk us through that experimental phase of creating a psychologically focused, habit focused program? Gayatri 11:08 So I reached out to my friends, and I like talk to them about like, the different sessions I'm thinking about having and I asked them, like, do you think there's another section that you'd find more beneficial, that was how I implemented like the rewards section because they said that, it'd be helpful if they had something that like motivate them stay on task throughout the program, not just thinking about like long term usage. And I go over the different sections, and they tell me if they think they need anything that they'd want to change, or add. And then I'd have them like, test out just a couple of sections, and like, they give me feedback. So it really wasn't, there was a lot of back and forth. And I want to say like testing took like a month and a half to two. But I test with between like 10 to 15 of my friends were like, I'd show them like different sections. Podcast Host 11:51 Okay, and how much did the program from what you originally thought it would be to what it is now change as a result of the testing? Gayatri 11:59 So when I was starting off, I want to make the program customizable, but I didn't want to make it that customizable. Because a lot of times, like if you give the person like a lot of freedom to do whatever they want, there's also a chance that they're not going to like truly do it. So I gave it to my friends. And they said that it'd be helpful if it was more customizable, because they talked about how like the current screentime methods that use they felt like rigid, and because of the rigidness, it was hard to stay on track with it. So because of the iterative testing, I made the program longer, I added like the rewards section, I added the routine section, like not just the phone routines, but like your everyday routines. And then I also made it a lot more customizable. So for example for creating a plan will give you like, a couple different suggestions on what you can include in your plan. And then we'd ask you like, what else do you think you can include? Or what do you think would be the most beneficial for you? Podcast Host 12:49 Okay, so it's been certainly evolving over the last couple of months. Do you feel like it is perfect now? Or do you feel like it's something that you'll want to continue to evolve over the next however long? Gayatri 13:00 I mean, I definitely don't think it's perfect. Um, I did, like publish the website, send it out. And so far, there have been good reviews, I'm thinking about like, maybe in a month, leaving a survey or like, asking people that I know use it, what they'd like to see change, or if they'd like to see like another similar program or just like what they'd like to see next. And then depending on those, I might create a second version of this program, or see if there's any other program I can create. Podcast Host 13:24 What makes you feel well qualified to go into this kind of field. I mean, you're 17, you've done a couple of psychology courses, I'm sure they were helpful. But at the end of the day, you're quite young. And a lot of work goes into these programs like the four 5am Club and other people have put in a lot of thought around how to reduce screen time and relationship technology. That what made you feel prepared or confident enough to take this step from an idea into a reality. Gayatri 13:52 So I'm part of deca and my high school club. But in deca, we like we talked about we learned about entrepreneurship, finance operations research, and we write business plans. And we compete in roleplays. So my sophomore year, I competed in the entrepreneurship event, it was a 20 page like startup business plan, and I competed on a one seventh international for that one. And then the following year, I competed in operations research business plan. So in this I partnered with the local bank, and then I conducted research to see like how they're doing what we can improve on and me and my partner proposed a plan on like improving their reputation, improving their online brand presence and then restructuring their organization. So through definitely like I've had a lot of experience on researching and like writing plants to make an idea come to life. But then the ideas came to life a business plan form but in never like it was never completely launched. And I wanted to take like the next step forward, especially because I'm a senior, so I'm gonna meet adults soon, like in the real world, you don't just write business plans, you actually like evolve it into like an actual product. You know, my background in definitely gave me the confidence about like researching, conducting research and like testing to make sure that Had a solid plan. And then that inspired me to actually publish this. Podcast Host 15:05 Okay, so it wasn't just like a one off idea into reality within the space of a couple of weeks. It sounds like it was a background in business and business planning over the course of a couple of years. That gave me the confidence to say, Yeah, I feel ready to do something like this. And what kind of knowledge gaps, did you realize that there were along the way? So you've got the idea? You're like, Okay, this is what I know, this is what I have to know, to turn this into reality, what were some of those knowledge gaps that you identified that you needed to kind of figure out along the way, Gayatri 15:37 I just had to do a lot more research on psychology and the psychology of habits and then like, what motivates people like positive versus negative reinforcement? So I spent, I want to say, like a month, like studying that, before I laid out the different sections, Podcast Host 15:50 and what was some of the habit resources that you found most useful for that Gayatri 15:54 digital minimalism was a very good resource for habits. And then I also read this book called talking to humans, and that wasn't only habits, but it was just like, the iterative part of creating a business. So like, back and forth, like user testing, which is what I use, like testing with my friends and changing the different sessions, though. Podcast Host 16:14 What do you think is the main lesson here for you from learning about habits that students could apply not just to their screen time, but to other areas of their life as well? Gayatri 16:24 I'm not sure if this entirely answers the question. But the main thing like I learned about my habits, when creating this was, I never took time to like, realize the long term effects of my habits, like especially at like this age, we're really like living in the moment like, we don't take time to like, think like, how is this going to impact me like five years in the future. So after I created this program, I started taking like a lot of time, and like, analyzing not only bad habits, like habits that were no my ideal habits, and like seeing how they were gonna really impact me, not just like through the next couple months, but like, through like a year, two years, five years down the future. And then like, if they would contribute to like my major goals, Podcast Host 17:04 it's kind of seeing the bigger picture of what your habits are building, right? If it's building on a path that you want to be on, or if it's building on a path that you don't want to be on. And kind of extrapolating that out, right, you can say that I'm spending seven hours on my phone, where if I get it down to four hours, that frees up three hours of time each day, which I could be doing this, this this and this, you know, it could be fitness, it could be mindfulness, it could be studying, where could that lead me in five or six years time? Or 20-30 years time? Who knows. And this is where it could lead me. So it's kind of like the long term impacts of your habits. That's an interesting, that's an interesting thought. I think a lot of students, as you say, probably wouldn't be thinking that far ahead. What did you see when you look that far ahead? You know, on that road of positive habit building or that road of not so strong habit building? What did you see for your future. Gayatri 17:56 So the main thing I saw was like, I have like, many goals that I won't, but always have the excuse that I don't have enough time. But that's been like four or five hours on my phone. So like the times there, but we just don't recognize that the time is there, because we're spending it towards useless things. For example, I really wanted to start meditating. And I really wanted to start like a fitness program. But I always like make an excuse for meditating. And meditating would be like, 10 minutes a day at night, or I just be like, I'm too tired. Like, I don't have time to do this. But then I'd lay awake, scrolling through Instagram, or like a fitness program. I'd be like, I'd find reasons. Like, I'm too lazy to do this. But I've also talked about how there's like never a good time during the day for me to do it. But the time was there. I just wasted the time. So the main thing I found was that making sure like I can identify that the time is there, but it's just it's not right in front of my face. Does that make sense? Podcast Host 18:47 Yeah, yeah. No, it does. It does. Yeah, I guess it's kind of that presence of mind. I think when people do say like, they're mindlessly scrolling through Instagram, it literally the time just goes, right. Yeah. Yeah, you're like, oh, that would have been 20 minutes, surely. And then you look at you watching and like, Oh, that was an hour and a half. Okay, like it can be really concerning how, how just time just disappears down the rabbit hole of Instagram, or YouTube and these kinds of things. And you're like, Oh, my God, that's pretty crazy. So it's good, I guess, to have that presence of mind of realizing you can fit in 10 minutes of meditation, and you can fit in these kinds of things, and just has to be a little bit of a sacrifice. It doesn't mean completely disbanding all your social media, it's just kind of been aware of how much time you're spending on it and dedicating a bit of time elsewhere, right. Gayatri 19:31 And I think like, the thing a lot of people think is like it's all or nothing with like their technologies, it's like, they feel like they either have to sacrifice like most of their time to like, make their goals come true. Or they just have to spend all their time on the technology like there's no like the middle ground or in between. and it goes back to realizing that you don't have to sacrifice everything. You just have to control your technology you say so you can still have fun with your technology, but you can still get your other things done and that also reduces like the stress you have when you're using your phone. So you're actually able to use the phone for like enjoyment, instead of guiltily using it for enjoyment. Podcast Host 20:05 Talk to me about that control element, because I'm quite interested in that. I think that's such an interesting way of you know, and I think a lot of parents and a lot of students have this and parents, students, human beings in general, who have phones and technology around them all the time, right? That element of control and your journey from where you were in March to where you are now, and what it feels like to have changed or to kind of taken back that control. So can you just, I guess, talk us through that journey for you and how it feels to have that control back? And I would ask a two part question, which I know is annoying. What happens on some days where I know like the elections going on right now, where perhaps it's very hard to stay in control, because it's so like, tense over there. And you probably just want to scroll and see everyone else's updates and see the latest news all the time. So is that kind of allowing yourself to have those days where you do, I guess, give back a bit of that control. Gayatri 20:59 So I mentioned like how in March, like the phone was controlling me, but the main thing about the phone controlling me was I noticed like such an increase in like, stress, anxiety. And then like, I'd feel so much worse about myself, because I feel like I'm letting like such a small device like control my entire life. It was especially like, during that time classes were Passfield, there should have really been not much to be stressed about, I should have been relaxing, my lack of control made a relaxing situation, or what should have been a relaxing situation much more stressful. So when I realized that, like what I started creating this program, and like regaining control, it felt so much better. So like, I felt more relaxed October than I did March and October was like when I'm writing my college apps for like the most important college. So because of my control, I'm able to enjoy my current situation a lot more. But I'm also it also gives me like more motivation. Because like, I know that if I can like control my screentime usage, when before used to be able to control me, like there's so much more that I can do that I just don't give myself credit for. And then it also helped me become like more in the moment. So like, before, I'd be hanging out my friends, but I'd be like scrolling on Instagram, even when I'm outside supposed to be like having fun. But now I'm able to like stay more in the moment, like pay more attention to like my friends, pay more attention to the tasks that like I want to pay attention to and just be more in the present. Podcast Host 22:21 Can you talk to us about those days where you've lost control and then gained it back. Gayatri 22:26 So it's like, you're never gonna have a time where you always have control over your phone, like no matter how long you've had control over it. So I used to be like the kind of person that was very, very hard on myself. And that made like building habits a lot harder than they should have been. Because the second i'd fail, I just want to like revert back to like, going back to the way it was instead of pushing forward. And one of the main things like I learned when I was researching this, and it's also in the guide is, as long as you don't fail two days in a row, you're gonna be fine. Because I'm like on like, for example, when I quit, when I wanted to start a fitness program, like I do, well, the first three days, and fourth day I fail, and I just feel like I failed, I might as well just not and then I scrap the entire thing. But like being more forgiving about yourself, like realizing you're obviously gonna make mistakes, because you're young, but you're also like human. And when you do make mistakes, just it's not feeling guilty about it, like acknowledging it, allowing yourself to have that cheat day. And then just getting back on track the next day. So right now, like with the election, like, I mean, I saw like college apps going on, but I have like the majority of the college apps done. So like I have a plan for it. And, um, I know that I'm not gonna be able to stay off my phone right now. Like, I want to know what's going on. So when I have like days like that I like try to like assign myself a lot of time to be on my phone. So like yesterday, I was like, I'll be on my phone for an hour total. And then I'll give myself freedom, like split that hour, however I want. So that way I'm still like staying up to date on what's going on. But it's all consuming my life. It's still section. Podcast Host 23:54 Right. So what's your average screen time now? Gayatri 23:56 Oh, let's check. Podcast Host 23:57 Let's check. I will also check. Gayatri 23:59 I know I went up in the past two weeks because like I've been putting myself take a break after college jobs. Podcast Host 24:05 I'm three hours and 20 minutes. Gayatri 24:07 I'm two hours and 30 minutes. Podcast Host 24:09 You're beating me! So if anyone's at home right now you can go to your settings and check your screen time particularly if you have an Apple phone. But yeah, there's a lot of I guess it kind of gives you a breakdown as well of how much you do in the productivity side. How much do you do in the games or social media side? I play Words with Friends against my mom. So that takes a bit of time because she's pretty good at it. What's your most used app? Gayatri 24:31 Instagram? Podcast Host 24:32 Yeah, me too. Gayatri 24:33 Ok, so be in quarantine everyone downloaded tik tok. And I was considering but I'm like doing what I'm just gonna like stay off it for a while and I never got to the position where I downloaded tik tok. And I feel like I dodged such a big boy with that because I feel like it takes over their entire lives. And I'm so glad. Like I never got to that position. Podcast Host 24:51 I delete the apps. I've deleted the Facebook app from my phone. I still want the Instagram app because there's something You can do on the app that you can't do on the actual browser. So yeah, it's interesting though, to kind of have a few different strategies. I know there's other ones as well, which is turning your screen into black and white, monochrome in your screen is a good way to kind of reduce that feeling when looking at your screens, kind of vibrant and colorful looks like, you know, little lollies and that kind of stuff. And that's actually like a psychological response. Right? They try and make it super colorful. So it really attracts the eyewear monochrome, you can reduce the hours dramatically. But of course, like when you're trying to fill the photos, it's not very good. It's not very helpful, right? So yeah, there's a lot of different tactics out there. Talk to me about the 60 page format of your program. And why you decided to do it in that way? Gayatri 25:42 I never thought it was going to get to 60 pages. So I started off outlining the different sections. And once I finalize the sections, I just like put down the content, I think I needed for this section and then go over it cut down unnecessary stuff, try to keep it as brief as possible. Oh, main reason why it's like 60 pages is because it's a guide. But it's also like a workbook in one like a lot of these sections are for you to fill out. So for example, we have sections where you just track every time you pick up your phone, and like there'll be like two to three page, three pages, like dedicated to a phone journal. So you'd like write down what number it was that you picked up the phone, why you have the phone, what you did on the phone, how long you're on the phone, and then like how much control you felt like you had, or days when we don't do that, we'd have questions for you to like answer in paragraph form. Or we'd have like a daily phone report where like we'd have it split up by hour. So 6am to 9am, like triggers that cause you to pick up the phone, and then how long you spent on your phone from 6am to 9am. And then go 9am to 12pm, 12 to three, three to six, six to nine, nine to 12. And then like 12 to whenever you fell asleep. Podcast Host 26:45 Okay, yeah. So it's really that bringing mindfulness back to when you were using your phone, because you're right, some people, it's literally just a habit to pick up your phone, unlock your screen, and then I'll tell you what's interesting. When I deleted it Facebook app, I found myself for the next couple of days after deleting the app, my fingers just doing the automatic thing. I'm looking at my phone going to where the Facebook app was. And they'll be like, Oh, yeah, I deleted the app. So I can't go there anymore. Right. So yeah, it's such an automatic thing. So I really like that idea that you're bringing mindfulness back? And what are some of the people using it saying about it? What are they kind of getting out of the program so far? Gayatri 27:24 The biggest thing was that it made them a lot more aware of like the time they spent on the phone. So we have like in the program, there's so many sections where you actually have to like get in fill out how long you spend your phone. And we also ask why you spent on your phone. So they were able to like common reasons that's been on their phone. And then like, they'd be able to like break down, see breakdown. So like, for example would be like I spent like the most time on my phone from like nine to 12. And then after all the time that they spent on their phone, they'd realize reasons that they'd spend on their phones that they never thought so a lot of people spend time on their phone because they have nothing to do with their hands. So like their hands will just switch over and after the phone. So like with tweezers like that we like offer different solutions, like have like a Rubik's cube in your hand or like have like even have like a rubber band. Podcast Host 28:09 Good old fidget spinner. Gayatri 28:10 Yeah, like fidget spinner like little things or just like flip a pencil. Yeah. Podcast Host 28:16 I'm interested in the rollout of it as well, in terms of the website building, what platform you used to build a website, and how much you had to self learn through that process. Gayatri 28:26 Yeah, so originally, I was going to code but I was like, I want this done ASAP. So I use Squarespace and they have like a website builder, then I just created like a website through that it didn't take too long, I want to say took like one day max. And then I uploaded the PDFs to that and publish it. So going website was fairly easy. I was originally going to use PE civil the program, but I use Canva instead. And Canva made it a lot easier to like graphically design and keep it steady. Podcast Host 28:55 Oh yeah. Canva is an amazing tool. I use that. Yeah, all the time. So yeah, talk to me about guess the rollout that's been going on. Gayatri 29:02 So I reached out to like my personal network. So like texting, like the friends that interviewed, um, and they're like posting on my social media. And they're like some of my friends posted on their social media as well. And then like, my friends also have a lot of followers on social media. So that helps get the word out. And then also like Instagram promos. So I reached out to like some accounts with a lot of followers and like she posted about it she LinkedIn in her bio. And then like through that we got a lot of international downloads. And then my parents also have very big networks on LinkedIn, like very big. So they sent it out through all their networks, and like it got spread around like that. Podcast Host 29:39 Okay, how many a lot at this point. Do you know how many downloads you've had? Gayatri 29:44 I put in the plugin for the download tracker after I published the website. So on the plugin if I have 1000 downloads but do my parents network, I want to say I have like a lot more because they each have like a couple thousand people that they sent it to like through their networks. So we're estimating about like 4k downloads, and then I'm going to start reaching out to like schools across the country, like, just talk about how this like resource might help their students as well. So that's like future goals. Podcast Host 30:12 Yeah, the associations, whether they be teacher associations, kind of like the World Bank, staff, members, counselors, those kind of people at schools, who would be probably helping students to work through some of these issues already, I think they could be a really good place to start and the parent associations and those kind of people as well, it would be fairly concerned and pretty interested in this. And I'm sure like, you know, as much as it's targeting students, it's definitely relevant to adults as well. I am very interested in doing this program, actually, I'm probably going to be your 4,001st. Download straight after this chat. Talk to me about how you're using that in your college application. Because just prior to pressing record on this show, you told me that you're looking to or have already applied a day early decision to eupen me to get into Wharton School of Business, which is a fantastic goal. So how did you use the looking glass program in your application? Gayatri 31:05 So I mentioned it in my activity section, I talked about it, such as we only have 150 characters that like there's no way I mentioned all that. So I just talked about like how I do like user interviews, competitive analysis, and then created a 60, page 14 day guide. And then I mentioned how it has around 4000 International downloads. And then in my additional information section, I put in the link to the website. So I didn't get to talk too much about it, unfortunately. But like I know, like looking at other college apps, they're like for the essays, I can definitely talk about this. Podcast Host 31:37 Okay, okay. And why you Penn, why Wharton for you? Gayatri 31:42 It's Wharton, you know, it's like the number one business school feels like I'm telling my why Wharton essay, but they have this thing. I'm really interested in entrepreneurship. So I want to do finance for a little and then I want to like start my own company. And I'm independent have something called like venture lab, and it's like entrepreneurship. And I just like I loved it so much. And then I also did me TSI over the summer. So originally, I was I thought I was gonna apply mmt at Penn, which is their dual degree program management and technology. Podcast Host 32:11 Yes. Gayatri 32:11 Oh, I did. I've been TSI over the summer. And we did. It was a three week program. So in the morning, like we do computer science, and then the afternoon, we'd have we do like the business side of it. And then we'd have like guest speakers, MMT alum, and then like case studies, and that experience, it was just it was amazing. through that experience. That's how I knew I wanted to ED at Penn, because I was debating between Penn and Harvard for ED / EA. Podcast Host 32:36 Okay, so yeah, I mean, both very good options. I think internationally, a lot of people would immediately go, oh, Harvard, right, because that's got the biggest brand name around the world. But I guess it's knowing what your fit is. And knowing the individual programs and courses and and what the universities have to offer, because every university offers something a little different, right? And it's doing your research and finding the one that's a really good fit for you, I think super important. What was it like writing your essay? Gayatri 33:06 It was all over the place, it was a roller coaster. So starting off, I was very relaxed. And then midway through, I got stressed, at the end, I was really relaxed. So writing the essay, I just I talked about how it definitely impacted like, my interests in business. And then like how Warren's gonna help me like further that interest. And then it's also a lot of research into war. And so I mentioned before, I thought I was gonna do mmt at Penn, but I realized, like, I like I'm interested in technology in business. But through mnts, I realized, like, my interest in business is a lot greater than my computer science, technology interest. And Penn is very big on like interdisciplinary education. So I'd be able to major like my business concentrations, but still learn about the technology part without having to major in CS too. So the interdisciplinary thing was like one of the main reasons I want to go to Penn all their focus on entrepreneurship, and then I'm writing the essays, it was just like conveying these thoughts. The second essay was definitely a pain to write because it asked about community and identity. And they're like, how Penn will impact your identity perspective, and how your identity perspectives though, like contribute to Penn. And then they give us 200 words for it. And I had no idea how to get all my thoughts into hundred words. So that definitely was a source of frustration cutting it down. Podcast Host 34:23 Yeah, well, it's 200 words to express that as at least you know, that you've got a lot to write about. I'm sure some people look at that and just completely blank and don't even know where to start. So I think it's a good problem to have to have almost too much to say, and to try and cut it down. But yeah, it's going to be an interesting wait for you. Where can students find the looking glass program if they would love to download it and get involved? Gayatri 34:47 Um, so it's the website Looking Glass program.com. And then in the website, like there's a button to download and then we also have like my email or the looking glass email, so they can like reach out via that email if you have a question. Feedback concerns anything. Podcast Host 35:02 Okay, right, I'll put that in the show notes so people can get in touch and hopefully take part in the program. I know I will, I'll be talking about it on LinkedIn as well. And I'm sure a couple of students would be pretty keen to take part, particularly if it's about getting your habits. And I think that's such a key thing, right, you know, knowing the habits that are going to impact you positively long term, and really thinking about not just the immediate day to day side of things, but that far off goal and how starting now can contribute to that goal. And it's just a couple of hours each day building towards, you know, better habits and a better view and all that kind of stuff. So it's really forced you to look into the future as to where you want to be and what you want to, you know, what you want to create in the future, right? Gayatri 35:42 It also like helped me look more inside like quarantine, there was definitely a lot more self reflection than before what school because it's always like keeping up with school. And then after online school, things kind of eased up. So I had more time to like, start thinking about myself as a person, like, what motivates me what I want my future goals to be, that was really good too. Podcast Host 36:03 Do you have any final advice for students who would be interested in wanting to start a program like this or to start like a some kind of psychologically focused program? Because obviously, you've had a lot of experience recently, what do you think students should definitely do if they're interested in doing something like this? Gayatri 36:19 This is pretty cliche, but like getting out of your comfort zone. So I remember when I started developing this program, like I want to develop it, but I don't want to like reach out to people and like bother them with their time and but it's just kind of like getting out of your head because like the people I talked to, they were all very welcoming and like very eager to like help me out. And then it's also just like making sure you're not like shy like you put in the work for this should be proud of the work you did and just kind of getting out of your comfort zone and talking to other people. And that makes a huge difference in the quality of your program. Podcast Host 36:48 That is good advice. Well, thank you so much for your time Gayatri. It's been awesome chatting, and I look forward to giving the program a go. I'm sure our listeners will also be looking forward to giving it a go as well. I can see my phone's just blinking at me now telling me something else that I am trying to desperately ignore. So it's good timing to chat with you. And I'm sure people will enjoy that if they're stuck in quarantine elsewhere around the world and want to lessen their phone usage all the best for your ED application to Penn I hope it's a successful one. We look forward to seeing more updates of the Looking Glass Program. But anyway, thank you so much for joining Top of the Class.

Ep #8 Sir John Key on School, Skills and Careers of the Future

🗓 NOV 14, 2020

See transcript

Jamie Beaton 00:34 Great to have you here, John. Sir John Key 00:35 Great to be here, Jamie. Jamie Beaton 00:36 Awesome. So why don't you take us right back to high school. Many of the listeners have heard about your accomplishments and office accomplishments in Wall Street. But what was John Key like in high school? Sir John Key 00:45 Okay, I better start by saying I'm 59 so we're going a long way back, Jamie, Okay, a couple of lifetimes for you. So well, funnily enough, I went to Burnside High School in Christchurch, New Zealand. So Burnside, at that point was the largest secondary school in the country had at that point 2000 pupils that has about two and a half thousand it's about eighth largest so it was seen as this really quite innovative High School and because it had really had four schools within the within the school itself if you like, see, it was a co educational facility, middle class New Zealand. I kind of grew up in this really poor household. My father died when I was really young. It's a very long story. But so we really came from the poor suburb and if you like a neighborhood. But yeah, I mean, as a school go to was a good place to go. Jamie Beaton 01:36 That's awesome. And when you're going through high school, what was your attitude? Did you view High School as something that you know, you had to be at or something you were really kind of ambitiously pushing through with a clear goal? What was your head state like? Sir John Key 01:47 Yeah, I mean, I wanted to be there. So I enjoyed it. It wasn't something I went through and though, "Hmm, I don't really want to be here." Secondly, the funny thing was that in New Zealand, the only way you know as you know, it's Year 9 to Year 13. Yeah, typically, and I don't know the percentage of year 13s that would go to university and be tertiary qualified, but the answer would be a lot in the modern day. So I was in the top class at Burnside, think how big the school was, less than half of the top class went to university, everyone, you could leave by what was fifth form. So it was two years earlier. Lots of people left that year. And in the six form, most people bailed out and by the time you got to seventh form, there weren't many people left! Even in those classes, most of them didn't go to university. So I went to university because my mother who was Austrian, and had been this Austrian Jewish refugee after the Nazis made in in 39 to Austria, she absolutely understood the power of education to transform your life. And so she was singly focused on me going to university and being tertiary qualified, had a pretty strong view I should be an accountant as well, which actually, I am and kind of an economist, but I'm not a very good accountant truth be known. So for me, it wasn't really a choice about whether I was going to university or not, I just, you know, that was, I went home once I think and when I was about 15, I said I might leave and become a horse trainer and got this you know, monosyllabic answer like "no". And that was it. So for me, I wanted to be there but it was a means to a tertiary qualification. Jamie Beaton 03:25 Awesome. And in high school, did you see yourself as a leader back then? Or was that something that came later on in your career? How did you see yourself as a young student? Sir John Key 03:34 Um, I mean, I always enjoyed that sort of side of things and, and I enjoyed speaking, I suppose, I was in the debating club and realized different sorts of things. I, people who know me, claimed that I was incessantly going on that I was going to be Prime Minister, I don’t know, maybe that's true. Maybe recreating history. I was also interested in politics, I always kind of liked the idea of it but I also had this sort of sense that I wanted to be a businessman and make money. Here's some financial independence for I went on. So to me, yeah, education was something that I saw as a means to achieving other things I wanted to do. Whereas I think legitimately, some people say education is my life, and I want to be an academic, and I want to teach or do research, whatever. But for me, it was just a way of, of demonstrating I knew how to learn and had the credentials that mean, I was worth hiring, I think, really. Jamie Beaton 04:30 I think a lot of young people, when they ask them kind of why'd you want to, you know, work hard at school, a lot of it is about, well, it's a signal that I'm going to, you know, be great in the future. I can get the top jobs, 'I want to work at Wall Street', things like this. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Back then were you pretty sure that finance accounting business was was a good route? Had you considered other career paths going straight into politics, or was that? Sir John Key 04:50 Yeah, I definitely didn't want to go straight into politics. I definitely wanted to have financial independence and in even then I think I had a view which I think is absolutely the right view obviously. Which is that, you know, while it's good going in, you know, going into politics, yeah, some people go and young and look, you know, you got lots of examples of that. Having done something else prior to having some different life skills, I kind of put a value on that and thought that was important. And I think yeah, like, I just think, in general, at the time, when I did finance, I was always interested in business. I mean, we had business clubs and things today, it's a lot more sophisticated, a little bit more snazzy, really, but, but back then we had things but it was quite a vanilla education system. So you know, for the arguments by NCAA, which is if you're not in New Zealand, it's our qualification. It offers you lots of different options in courses. But really, when I went, it was English, maths, physics, you know, biology, chemistry, accounting, economics, it was pretty vanilla. Jamie Beaton 05:58 And I think one interesting thing about how things have evolved is, these days, if you see it coming like Palo Alto Networks, which are on the board off, you know, many engineers getting hired in their 20s can leave college and be earning 100,000 plus in Silicon Valley with computer science education. But if you think about New Zealand, not many fast schools put much focus on computer science. How do you see that part kind of evolving? And, you know, if you were to go back in high school, would that have been of interest to you as a pathway? Or not really? Sir John Key 06:27 Yes. So we did a bit of this is really giving you an idea of how far back you had to go, but a Cobalt programming in high school. Actually, ANZ, who I'm chairman of, has a few cobalt systems still running around, so we're actually desperately looking for people so they can fix up some of the things we need. Yeah, I mean, I think if, if I had it all again, would I do something different? Maybe, you know, I was just really lucky, because I came out eventually went into investment banking after a bit of time, and accounting and stuff. And that really suited me and my personality. And that suited, I kind of lapped up the pressure that was involved in that. And the international nature, everyone was amazingly well paid and lucrative back in those days. So really, it's very hard to argue I made the wrong career move. But one of the things I think that governments can legitimately ask is, do they want to put more emphasis on what actually the economy needs and wants, I mean, these are sort of one school of thought says, it really doesn't matter. If you educate people, they'll drift into whatever field they like, and who cares whether the they study ancient history of, you know, whatever, Tibetan warriors, it'll somehow be useful because they've demonstrated that they have an ability to learn. And there's nothing wrong with that argument. But I do think given, you know, the government pays a big share of the bill, there's an argument for saying, 'Well, what do we want our economy to look like?' And if you accept that view, then you start saying STEM subjects are really important. And actually, we know that in the modern world, everything's digital, everything's gonna become more digital, more computer driven, more, you know, AI, and all those things. So if it was me, and I just said, I want to make sure I've always got a job, there's certainly a strong argument that computer science is both fascinating, but also really, still really lucrative way to go. Jamie Beaton 08:23 I recently was speaking to one of our Crimson alumni, I sent out a poll to our students that have gone off from these different countries to the US, UK and asked them, you know, 'what are the most common subjects you're doing at university now, and what are you using?' And computer science, math and economics really rose to the top. It's interesting, because when I was at college in the States, working for tech companies was, you know, pretty interesting to do. But you know, investment banking, management consulting, these were really the most exciting paths. But I think there's been quite an explosion in interest in the computer science and tech field pretty recently. And I was wondering, you know, if you think the finance world of today, how important are those math / CS skills? First, you know, sales, you know, macro economics, in those areas, like investment banking. Are those STEM skills, something that you know, are a must in finance? Or not as much? Sir John Key 09:10 Depends on what side of the business you're in. But as a general rule, what I'd say is, when we were recruiting in Merrill Lynch, we had the advantage of being a blue blood investment bank and so we could choose from the very best Ivy League universities. And obviously, we would look at people who are finance graduates. But we would look at people that were engineers, for instance, for people that had a physics degree, because we knew if they were mathematically literate, that they could apply there, and we'd be able to use that and we could train them for what we wanted. So I think demonstrating a capacity to be able to be good at maths is really, really important. I mean, I think one of the reasons why it's moving but you sort of said, well, you used to go to investment banks or maybe we do Bain or McKinsey, still very popular. But the reason why Investment Banks are coming down as what's happened is that they used to be the sort of home of, you know, these incredible compensation packages, partly because they were paid massively in stock and options. And that was what dominated when I worked in investment banking for the first 20 odd years of my life. The reality is today that for a variety of reasons, regulators, what the community expects, a whole bunch of different reasons, in that area, incomes gone down, and what you'd really argue that if you were going to give you really want to max out earnings, you probably wouldn't go investment banking, you'd go private equity. Or you would go, as you pointed out in some tech startup or something, there's lots of other ways. I mean, you have to attach yourself to the equity portion to really make big money. I mean, certain number of people get paid a lot in salary, but the blunt reality is you really make 10 x 20 x 30 x when you've got the stock. So I think that the consultancy route is still really good, because like audit, it exposes you to a variety of different cultures and organizations and a knowledge base. And yet, you can sort of mock the four quadrant module, and the way of thinking but actually, ultimately businesses about problem solving, and about getting ahead of the curve. It's not always about inventing the best, a new mousetrap really, sometimes I think people think I've got to invent, you know, the thing that's gonna knock Google over, not necessarily, you might need to invent or have a product that's just better than the other products. And actually, if you look at the history of tech companies, there's a hell of a lot of tech companies that started first had what looked like pretty good technology, and they didn't win the race. Jamie Beaton 11:50 Yeah, I think Skype and Zoom are really interesting examples. You know, Skype was just so dominant. When Crimson started in 2013, we used Skype for everything, and Zoom, you know, just made some backend improvements that made the calls better. And now it's, I think, $150 billion on the stock market today. Sir John Key 12:05 Google, I mean, you know, when I first started like everyone else, I mean, Yahoo was the search engine we used. I mean, in New Zealand Trade Me didn't invent an online marketplace. eBay, and you know, Amazon later times, they're made for these guys, but they bought it to New Zealand, they focused on the market, they had good technology, and the rest is kind of history. So yeah, I think sometimes people sit around thinking, I've got to find the one thing that's different. Sometimes in the technology space you're seeing there, because you think about a world that's moving towards cloud. I see a lot that Palo Alto, we were constantly buying businesses that were plugins for the total solution, because you know, people were going to have increasingly amounts of their data on cloud and are in the cloud. And before they can do lots of different things, they need these specific things, or it's just work out way more efficient ways of operating. But as yet, as a general rule, it's like it'd be easier to sit back, I think, sometimes and think every cool thing in the world has been invented by bet you that we're about, you know, a millionth of the way through, that's the truth of it. Jamie Beaton 13:14 Yeah, I think an interesting example is Rocket Internet, which is a company in Germany, that basically clones American businesses and runs them into other parts of the world. Yeah. And I think given how dispersed the world is, it's really hard for an entrepreneur in Silicon Valley to raise money, and then dominate every market simultaneously. And for a while, I think China, you know, it was working quite well copying some of these US companies. Now. It's almost the reverse, particularly in education. A lot of the most innovative companies are coming out of China and India, not necessarily the US. Sir John Key 13:42 Yeah, I mean, there was a sort of a theory that went around the world, Donald Trump says, every day of the week that China steals intellectual property, well, you know, like, maybe some Chinese entities do, but, you know, once well, that's a bit like saying, you know, Russians entities do, North Korean entities do, you could name any country in New Zealand company might involve itself doing that. But actually the real truth, as far from that China's actually creating a huge amount of intellectual property, go and have a look at what say, someone like Sequoia, who, you know, one of the most dominant, if not the most successful VC in Silicon Valley, they have a huge amount of resources in China, basically, in China and Israel. And the reason is, because there's so many amazing companies coming out of China. And I think if you can have a look at the big tech companies out there, whether it's Alibaba or Tencent, or whatever, in these systems are amazing systems. And they've learned digital payment systems long before a lot of other companies have. So yeah, I think at your peril you underestimate them actually. So yeah, there's so there's a lot of exciting things happening. Jamie Beaton 14:46 So the state of competition and the idea of the world today as a lot more globalized, and a company can you know, spread from China around the world, like Tik Tok can, for example, it's really I guess, relevant to high schooler because they're going into an economy where they can't be good within their home country or their home city because, you know, it's a global competitive landscape. So if you were in high school today in 2020, what kind of decisions would you make? And how would you think about your future? Given how the worlds evolved in the last little while? Sir John Key 15:13 Yeah, I think it's almost another way of sort of phrasing that question wouldn't be so much that they can't just be good in their home country. But why would they want to? Because if you accept the world as globalized, and you know, despite the odd barriers that we see a few politicians trying to put up at the moment, I mean, the genies out of the bottle, then the answer is you wouldn't want to be siloed to the country come from because of you, like, for instance, New Zealand, that's consumer base of five million people when you know that China's probably producing that number of middle income consumers, you know, in next year, so you know, there is a very global world. I mean, I think, to me, what I would say is that, firstly, if you think globally, and you think big, then there's every chance you'll achieve that, people generally are limited by not the environment they live in, but their imaginations. It's that capacity to believe you can actually do something as much as the ability to do it. And I think that now post politics, I've spent quite a bit of time in Silicon Valley. What is amazing is, firstly, have this belief that everyone succeeds. Well, that ain't true. There's a lot of companies and a hell of a lot that fail. But what it does is it's a place where it's, is completely unbiased. It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, what gender you are, what sexuality you are, all they care about is results. If you've got the product that works, they'll love you and buy you. And I kind of like that, I think that's really cool. I think, you know, that's what the world's got to be about, you know, show me the solution, and someone will pay for it. And so yeah, if I was in high school, now, I would be thinking, first thing I'd be thinking is make sure I have command of the English language, to be blunt as it's the language of business, whether you like it or not. I think secondly, if you probably don't speak English should probably be hard to listen to this podcast. So the reality is, you probably already do. Secondly, I definitely, definitely would be looking at the other pockets of the world for what I'm doing that are really interesting, is to say, you know, there's just some amazing stuff happening in Israel and technology space, or, obviously the US. Yeah, thirdly, I think, you know, we also live in a very different world now. You know, again, I'm not really from that generation before me, but that was the generation that worked for one company. I worked for the post office, you were there for 40 years, you retired, you got the gold watch that was it, you know. My generation was a bit more maybe worked for two or three companies that was kind of spreading out. Now. It's like, wow, yeah, you could be bouncing around all over the show. People's CV, that used to be that was a sign of instability. Now. That's a sign of experience, that you've worked for lots of people. Jamie Beaton 17:58 Yeah, if you keep an engineer for two years, you're doing well. Sir John Key 18:01 Yeah, you're doing great. Yeah, finding one's quite tough actually - software engineers. Jamie Beaton 18:06 And so I guess, one of the best ways, at least I've seen young people being able to get this global exposure is that, you know, university or at a high school through exchanges. You know, one thing you mentioned to me a while ago is that, you know, you were very interested in an Ivy League MBA, and I was wondering, you know, what made you interested in that career pathway, that education pathway, and you know, what did you kind of find, when you went to Harvard took some management classes about that experience? Was it what it was cracked up to be? Sir John Key 18:30 Yeah, so I, if you go back and look at my degree, I'm going to B-Comm in Accounting common so that is such a vanilla degree, that you'd sit there and go in the modern world, you know, most people do, you know, a lot more than that. And I kind of get that and that's because the currency now is one that's much deeper, you know, I mean, back in those days, as I said the differentiating factor was that you went to university. Now it's, you know, how many degrees have I got, you know, what layering does it look like? Where did I go? What are my grades? Like, it's a much more competitive world. By the time I went to Merrill, yeah, that was a different spice. You know, working in the United States, and a lot more people had, MBAs or had different degrees and taken time out of their, you know, their workday. And that goes along with the pattern of MBAs. And I kind of thought, well, A, I was academically interested and B, I kind of thought it would be a really useful thing to have. They used to say to me, 'John, you'd be getting an MBA to get a job you already have. So why are you bothering?' but I kind of thought I saw thought it was, you know, quite nice idea. And they, we hit this relationship with MIT and with Harvard. And we spent quite a lot of money into the research programs and doing different things. And so one of the things they did as you know, Harvard's all case study learning. And so they would put these companies together. In fact, the very first one I went to, was on disruptive technology. And they had Kodak there, and then I'll never forget the CEO, you know, Chairman of Kodak was there, he was tough in this business, you should have seen, our group if you like was sitting there going, 'mate, you're not even going to have a business in a couple of years', digital cameras were coming and they sold film, and film got developed, and it actually those companies have never been that greater at developing digital film, and it was interesting, they had a really eclectic, they had Gibson greeting cards were there, because again in the modern world how many people actually send a card? I mean, you probably do send, you do send a bereavement card maybe for a wedding the odd birthday but then it's not very common is it? Interesting thing with them by the way, this is a really weird thing. They tested those guys and all these focus groups and more people trusted them because Gibson greeting cards because you get a bereavement card at a very sad time or a wedding card he talked about, you trusted those messages, honestly, more than they trusted half these fund managers. And they had this theory that they went out and set up a fund's management business, it would be successful because they had a trusted brand. It was kind of crazy. Anyway, we I would then in and that was amazing. And I lose a lot. But you know, an online MBA would have given me the opportunity to keep the job and still advance my education. I think that's one of the fantastic things about, you know, what we're doing at Crimson. You don't have to do everything, you don't have to step out the environment you're in, you don't have to leave the country or the place you're in. I mean you can choose to do all those things but equally, in a world where you might be juggling two or three balls, you can do all of those in advance through education. And I think it's a cliche, but it's true, education is a lifelong learning process now. So if it's just going to be full time and the classroom, I think that is going to exclude many people. Jamie Beaton 21:48 Yeah, I think, um, COVID has been really interesting, because students that are quite ambitious, now are no longer limited, just whatever opportunities are available within their country. But with this round, a lot of extracurriculars have gone online. So for example, recently, we had 2000 young people compete in the Tiger Global Case Competition where they pitched you know, solutions to how Sony should, you know, deal with Xbox and other competitors entering the market, you know, from the, I guess, homes all around the world, and we had teams from Japan and Hong Kong and Auckland all participating. So I think, in an online centric world, you can sit in Auckland or you can sit in Moscow, and you can meet learners from all these different countries do all these extracurriculars and have a lot of the benefits you might get if you were previously at a top New York private school, but from you know, your home country. So I think it's a great access enabler if you're self motivated. But on the other hand, I think, you know, if you don't have that intrinsic motivation, perhaps you can fall even further behind and that kind of online environment. So yeah. Sir John Key 22:44 I suspect online gamers probably worked that out a long time ago, that they could be sitting in New Zealand and playing against somebody in Kazakhstan, you know, I mean, totally, they sort of realized the world was a bit global. And the thing you know, the other thing about an online capability, I think that's really interesting is that, if you go to look at books. This is true in New Zealand so it's probably true around the world. The number one selling books, are cook books. Alright, so if go write a book, you know, 'Jamie Beaten my story about Crimson', you know? Yep. And look, it'll sell if it sells 10,000, 20,000 it's be a massive seller. But if you do a cookbook, they sell a lot, right? But do you think people buy cookbooks to learn how to cook? Because the answer is they don't, they buy them for the pictures of the food, which they think looks cool. So if you go and say beef stroganoff, how do I make that and type it into my Google search engine this afternoon, I tell you what's going to come up don't tell what's going to come up, not your cookbook, what's going to come up is your YouTube video. And I'm going to watch it, right? We live in a world where people want things now, wherever they are in the comfort of their own room, and half time, they want to watch a tutorial, you know, like we do in our business. And I can look and see it and I don't have to read everything. It's their and I can probably have my attention on something else at the same time and I learn. You know? So it's just a very different world. Jamie Beaton 24:18 You made a point earlier also about inspiration and how people are often limited by how much they're dreaming, you know, I guess what their motivation levels are and that kind of thing. And one thing I think is pretty interesting is lots of our students discover our daily life videos about different universities. So, you know, we have students, for example, take Jennifer right, she was an Auckland student went to NYU, and she walks down the streets in New York, and people come up to her and say, Hey, you know, I watched your video, I'm from Vietnam, I was inspired to kind of apply to the US because of this content. So I think the good thing about this environment now is you can find the inspiration a lot more easily. You know, previously if your community is pretty inward looking, and you don't have many mentors have gone overseas and stuff like that. It's a huge jump, but I think these days, hopefully the barriers have been reduced a lot by some of that content. Sir John Key 25:02 And partly it's just experience I mean, you know, it's all very well going and asking your parents or asking the career guidance counselor at school or whatever. But if you live in Wichita, Kansas, their experience might be whatever's happening in that state and that's it. You know, they're not necessarily thinking about, should I go out to, you know, Tsinghua University in Beijing and study, you know, it's just, it's just different. And I think even now, you still breaking down a few barriers doing that, but yeah, and it look, we live in a very globally competitive world, where if you really want to be the top of your game, not just the top of your game in your town, or your state or your wherever, you know, then you are gonna climb inevitably, some bigger mountains have bigger aspirations, but I always kind of think, you know, life isn't about longevity. It's about what you achieve when you know, you're on the planet. So, you know, I'd rather live a long, happy, healthy life. But if I'm truthfully honest, I'd rather live a life where I got some things done, achieve some things and give things a go, even if they didn't always succeed straight away. Then just, you know, I live this period of time, I never took any risks. And actually young people by definition, you know, why are young sports people often so amazingly successful? I mean, you see these young tennis players, young golfers, or, you know, with a young All Black running on the weekend for his first test, you know, Caleb Clarke, why he is doing what he's doing? The answers because they have, they have no fear, and they don't even think about it, they just give it everything. And it's that sort of freewheeling spirit that hopefully we harness by opening people's eyes to what's possible, to me what you know, what you can do, not what you can't do. Jamie Beaton 27:00 I think it's a really strong attitude. One thing that has been growing in popularity a lot is many of our alumni going into the Y Combinator accelerator in Silicon Valley. So I think of students like Soumil from New Zealand or Brendan Australia, who had never thought of entrepreneurship, but then came to this accelerator, was exposed to all these interesting tech entrepreneurs in their 20s, founded big companies, and then that becomes a reality they're shooting for. So they're not looking for necessarily a second year, you know, job placement at Deloitte, but they're looking to, you know, build a big tech company. So I think that really speaks to that, you know, aspiration, and that students, you know, can be told they should wait to their 40 to create companies. But more and more so today, these young people are really charged up to just go for it. Sir John Key 27:40 Yeah, I think those days are waiting until you're 40, they're over really. So I think if you look at a lot of those companies, and those accelerators, they're actually really small companies often, yeah, they might not have more than 10 or a dozen people in them. They have an idea. They're utterly convinced they're going to dominate the universe in whatever they're doing, and actually, you know, what some of them do. And there's no shortage of money being thrown at these things. I mean, as we know there's a world where interest rates are lucky to get above half a percent. This there's a lot of capital, looking, you know, for a home. So under the right conditions with the right idea, there's lots of opportunities in the kind of cool thing about that is that, you know, you get so much opportunity. And sometimes people say are you but you're working 80, 90, 100 hours a week? Well, kind of who cares? I mean, like, when you're young... Jamie Beaton 28:40 You have all the energy in the world, go for it. Sir John Key 28:41 I mean, I used to go to work, when I was at Bankers’ Trust when I first started working. We'd go to work, we'd get up at 5.30 in the morning, we'd trade, we'd get woken up all night, you know, I don't know how many hours we worked in the you know, Monday through Friday in the market until Saturday morning, the answer was a lot. And if you'd asked me whether I had a job I would have told you I don't have a job, I have something I love doing. It's not really a job. I mean, so I think it becomes a job when you are worrying about what time you punch in, in the morning. What time you leave in the evening. I mean, you're young, I mean, you want to do things. It's invigorating to do that. Jamie Beaton 29:16 I think that yeah, that passion is really electric for those early years. And then it's really interesting to see the people that could sustain all their life, I think of Stephen Schwarzman, from Blackstone. Yeah, the people that work at Blackstone, I was talking to a student of mine who asked me what kind of hours is Blackstone? I said, nine to three. And they said, that sounds really relaxed. And then I said, 'no, it's 9am to 3am.' Because in those early years, you're really grinding super hard. But I think it's really interesting how the work ethic and some of these places can be sustained for like 20-30 years. I don't know if that's a good thing in those later years. But it's really interesting how there can be big cultural gaps between how hard people go and you know, can be really, I think, a big symptom of, you know, their high school, their university, who they're exposed to. What they think is normal. Sir John Key 29:58 Yeah, look, you want a life, it's not an argument to say that you only do that, and you can't do something else. I mean, you probably want to do, you know, ultimately a bit of everything, but as you said earlier, a lot of these jobs, you're not necessarily doing that, you might be Steve Jobs and be there for a very long period of time, you know, while he was alive, but the reality is that, that most people sort of interlope and are open to a lot of different things. So these, these that opportunity Anyway, those places are more about you wanting to be there doing those things... Jamie Beaton 30:30 And you build really good skills. That's why some guys go on to build great companies. Sir John Key 30:34 And they might go look, ultimately, you might go on to other things. Jamie Beaton 30:37 A lot leave after a couple years after good training. Sir John Key 30:40 They learn the skills and then go and do something else. Jamie Beaton 30:41 Same as the McKinsey's and stuff. So we talked a little bit about this trend of youth entrepreneurship. And I guess one interesting trend is pretty relevant now is, you know, youth in politics. So you see AOC in the US, Chloe Swarbrick here, just send this trend of a lot of people resonating with people that are, you know, relatively new to politics. Pete Buttigieg is another good example. Yeah, um, what do you think, what do you think's driving that? And do you think it's going to continue? Is it a short term trend? Or is it here to stay? Sir John Key 31:09 I think the trend towards younger people who don't necessarily have a lifetime of career experience in politics is not only going to stay, I think it should be a more dominant feature. When I became, when I went into politics, the average length of time someone spends in Parliament before they became Prime Minister was 18 years. And I was there, six before I became Prime Minister, and that was the fastest, the longest he had been there seven years before me, to the modern day history. I'm not sure if you go back a long way. Nowadays, you know, I think, is it conceivable that someone could go in and the first term become the leader of a major party and then become Prime Minister? The answer is absolutely, I think they could. And I think it's because as the years go by people, people are realizing that very young people can I mean, dominate amazing company, I mean look at Mark Zuckerberg, no one looks at him and says, 'Gosh, he's young, he shouldn't be running Facebook.' I mean, you know, like, so I think, I think our attitudes have changed. And partly, I think, actually the energy level in some of those jobs. So the only balancing act, I'd say in politics is do you have the capacity to understand. When you're young, sometimes your outlook on life is just a little bit different? And sometimes your experiences are a little bit different. So things like having a family or other sort of things that might occur a little bit later, they shape you in your thought process. And so that does change a little bit. But, but yeah, I think I think there'll be a range. But I definitely think that their acceptance of young politicians will be the, I mean, to a degree, something like JFK was pretty young, really. Jamie Beaton 32:58 What age did he get in? Sir John Key 33:00 Mid 40s. Pretty young for the US. Jamie Beaton 33:04 Yeah, absolutely. Sir John Key 33:05 Yeah. So we have the other issue we've covered as well. But yeah. Jamie Beaton 33:09 We actually have an alumni, a boy called Sam Taylor grew up in Mount Maunganui, from the Maori community got into Harvard. And he was in the Young Nats. And his goal is basically to come back and try be the first Maori Prime Minister. So for Sam, who's now at Harvard, he's thinking about, you know, his career trajectory, what kind of skills he can build, and then you know how he can come back here and have an impact in his home country. So what kind of advice would you give him? Do you think that things like law or public policy, the kind of classic degrees that are often seen in politics is the way to go? Or should he be thinking about different types of skills? What would you recommend for Sam? Sir John Key 33:42 I honestly think kind of anything works, really. But one thing I'd say is lawyers tend to think a particular way. Jamie Beaton 33:49 They're very risk averse, usually. Sir John Key 33:51 Yeah, and they just have a different analysis that they also processing framework that they go through in their own head. And I used to sit in cabinet, we probably six of the 20 members of cabinet when I was Prime Minister, were lawyers. And the lawyers sometimes would have an argument amongst themselves. And it wasn't really always about the actual substance it was more about how the courts actually interpret this and how would, you know, you know, common law develop off the way we thought the courts would interpret what Parliament sort of said. So there's no doubt that if you understand the making of the law, or you understand the law that when you become a law maker, that's a really useful set of skills to have. But equally, do you need to be a public policy expert, for instance, in mental health to be the Health Minister? Probably not. If you're a doctor, does it help? Yeah, it's probably interesting, but it wouldn't limit you on doing that. I think one thing I'd say is if you go all the way back to the heart of government, really A lot of what government is about is collecting people's taxes to redistribute it in the form of what we think of public goods, really. And so ultimately, in any government, you know, a lot of emphasis was put on the Prime Minister for very good reasons with the President. But actually, it's the Minister of Finance, or the Secretary of the Treasury that really in a lot of ways, they're in every discussion involved in everything that goes on. So financial skills are always good skills to bring to Parliament, I think. Jamie Beaton 35:30 Yeah, probably a good skill to have in general. Sir John Key 35:31 Yeah, I think in anything you do. I mean, if you, you absolutely have to have a view on it's good to have someone you can rely on. But yeah, they just in the end, other thing that can trip you up if you're running any businesses that really have great ideas and things. But if you don't manage cash flow properly, then it can end badly. Jamie Beaton 35:53 Last question for you, for young people today, who are, you know, born in a particular country, there's a lot of migration happening, people, you know, going to the US going to the UK and Canada and stuff like this? Do you think we'll see a world where the notion of the country your born in loses some of its significance? Or do you think actually, that's always going to be there, and a lot of these people will inevitably feel that, you know, cultural connection will come back to their home countries? What does the world have 2030, 2040 look like? Is that even more globalized? Or is there going to be some of that nationalism kind of retained? I'm trying to think about where our Crimson kids might be in the future and wondering, Sir John Key 36:30 Well, one level, you could make the case that, you know, post the sort of Industrial Revolution we've gone through this globalization revolution, we're, you know, free trades been the order of the day migrations been common, foreign capitals moved around the world, there's been all sorts of... and the internet was part of the opening up of that and the exposure, I think of other countries and what they mean. I think you can make the case actually, that, that what Trump really was tapping into in the US was actually a feeling from a group of people in society, they actually, that was a failed experiment. And they will leave behind, that people didn't play by the same rules and that, you know, somehow they just missed out. And it wasn't the thing that they said, I, I'm an internationalist, I'm a globalist, I totally disagree with that strategy. I think that you know, those very people, the same people that will walk into Walmart, and buy a pair of Chinese, you know, shoes, which a fraction of the price there would be if they were buying them, you know, made in Kentucky and they can afford them where they wouldn't be able to. So, you know, trade isn't just about export jobs. It's also about, you know, then import substitution that I have. So I don't think we're going to go back to a world where barriers are going to be so extreme, and you know, I think there'll be at the margins. And that'll be true I think of international travel. And, you know, will these international universities pull the very best of the world into their alumni? Absolutely, they will. I don't think you might be wrong. I just don't know whether you ever fully say that, you know, my country of origin no longer has any relevance to me. Because I think, when you say someone was mean to come from New Zealand, or whatever, you know, they might, they might say the all black rugby team, or they might say big skies, or they might say farming, or they might say, you know, last bus stop before you meet in Antarctica and the penguins, I don't know. I mean, people have a view of what their mental picture is. But most people, when they go and migrate somewhere else, and live permanently somewhere else, they get to a point where they go over the threshold and they say that country means to me now, what my home country mean, and so I adopt all of that. And my mother did that. So when she came to New Zealand, she obviously could speak German, I used to say to teach me German. And she'd say that is a complete and utter waste of time, my boy, accounting and economics. So my mates would come around after school and she would tutor them in German, but never thought I would ever need it because she lived in a world before the internet, before people really traveled the way they did. And she thought that's a waste of time. Whereas now, you would say well, it's the craziest thing in the world. If I can speak German, I'll talk to my kids in German, they'll speak English at school and, and I'll be multilingual and as we know, you know if you learn in one additional language, you can probably learn ten. So I think they'll always be that, you know, 'I come from India and there's just something about the country that means something to me that's deeper than just you know, that, you know, obviously look like I'm Indian' and you know, I think there's is more to it than that. But there's no doubt the world is, you know, the world is global. And so many people I think will eventually say my home is going to be somewhere other than where I was born or where the nucleus of my family is. The one thing I would say actually and it's not always at the highest levels of education. I reckon you got to have enormous respect for people that move overseas and live somewhere else. And the reason for that is that you take away all of the safety net and all of the support systems and in the end, somehow you're on your own when you're doing that. And I often get into Ubers and things in New Zealand and someone might have been here when I was Prime Minister so they know me or whatever. But they might have been back in New Zealand for eight days. And they're driving an Uber and the packing shelves somewhere else. Jamie Beaton 40:34 They're doing three different jobs. Sir John Key 40:35 You just know, in 10 years time, they're gonna buy a new house and make it. And that's all attitude. And that's the thing I would say to people listening to this podcast is that, yep, you can limit yourself by what you think failure might look like or what you might trip up on or why someone who's you respect has told you, you can't get to that university or that place. Or you can say, well, I'll just roll the dice. I'll give it everything I've got. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with failure. There's something terribly wrong with not trying. Jamie Beaton 41:10 It's a beautiful message to end on. Thanks, John.

Ep #7 Creating an International Debating Competition

🗓 NOV 12, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 00:00 John, welcome to the show, it's great to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? John Hopcroft 00:46 Absolutely, Alex. My name is John Hopcroft. I'm from a little old city in New Zealand called Palmerston North. I'm 16 years old, and I'm currently going to a school called Palmerston North Boys High. And I guess I'm the founder of the Cosmos Championship. In April 2 of this year, I started this competition, and all the way throughout this quarantine and throughout the rest of year I've been developing it and building it into something which can really help thousands of students across the world. Podcast Host 01:15 Fantastic. Well, I know that a lot of students are getting involved. What are the latest numbers in terms of like the number of people who are competing in the competition? John Hopcroft 01:22 I believe that we've recently just hit the 300 registration mark. And that is in a really unique scenario with no paid marketing, no paid, advertising has been done. And we're just beginning our outreach program. So start reaching to some youth organization, some big national debating organizations to really try and boost those numbers. Podcast Host 01:43 Fantastic. And what's your goal? At the end of the day, like what are you trying to aim for here? John Hopcroft 01:47 Our targets for end of this year is to try and reach that 1000 registration mark. And our long term goal for this competition is to just try and benefit as many people as possible from it, because fundamentally, the reason why I started this competition, is because there's more international debates and opportunities for someone who isn't the best or wealthiest debaters in the world. Yes. So this competition is to really try and bring out normally exclusive opportunity of international debating everything that so anyone can do it, or any high school student can do it. Podcast Host 02:21 So was the reason you started the competition? Was it that philosophy that was the driving force? Or was it COVID locked down boredom? That was the driving force? Or was it a combination of the two? Can you take us like back to that time in March, April, when the idea started to become a reality. John Hopcroft 02:39 I initially dreamt up the idea during my school holiday, so January and February. And when I looked into it, I went, I don't think there's a way I can do this to a standard I'm happy with I'm too busy. You know, I came up with a bunch of excuses, where, hey, this is a really cool opportunity. But I've NCAA level three, and I have this and I have that. But then COVID, even though COVID brung up a really unique situation where all of my big projects or my big extracurriculars, and my academics really took a backseat as you spoke about there was that sense of boredom, or rather what I took it as, as a bunch of free time to explore this idea, and really, really build it from an idea into a really impactful project. Podcast Host 03:25 Okay, well take us through that first couple of weeks. Because I know that in that first few weeks, you've probably got the excitement of the idea. But the more you explore the idea, the more questions that come up about how is it going to run? What kind of registrations are we going to do? What competition format are we going to do? So there was a lot of questions to be answered. And I know a lot of our listeners are probably pretty keen on either a taking part in you know, the cosmos championship, or indeed starting a competition of their own in some way, shape, or form. What were some of the challenges that you face in those first couple of weeks. John Hopcroft 03:57 So something I've always enjoyed is just problem solving and trying to come up with new ideas and innovative solutions. So those first few weeks were definitely really tough. It was something I was spending maybe 30 or even 40 hours a week, just designing the website, building the competition. And the way I set it up as is that as I built the competition, I built the website with it. So there was that direct reflection of, Okay, I'm building this idea and I'm putting it straight down on paper or rather on the internet immediately. So it was really just trying to use that fantastic opportunity you had in COVID, which was plenty of spare time, and just making the most of it and going just using your head and using online resources and using current or somewhat similar competitions to try and learn from that. So at the time, I think about three weeks into the building the competition, New Zealand had a national online debating series where something like three or four rounds of debating, and I participated in that and also try to engage With adjudicators different teams and also the management side behind it, to try and learn how it's all being done. So I guess one of the main lessons I've learned from setting up a competition like this is learning from work, which has already been done and developing on that. So initially, the idea was pretty intuitive. The Cosmos championship or a free international online debate, competition had never really been done before, which puts me into a bit of a sticky situation. But there have been online debate competitions and large scale online debate competitions. So it's really trying to apply the lessons learned from those situations, and putting it into my own competition. Podcast Host 05:41 I love what you said about just starting the website, because I think getting a website up or getting a Facebook page or an Instagram page, those kind of steps, I have kind of milestone I'm committing to this kind of moments. Can you take us through I guess what your rationale was to go from? I'm thinking about it, I'm still thinking about it. I'm coming up with excuses. There are all these different things, you know, happening to then just being one day saying, yep, today, the website's going up, we're doing this. So what was the impetus for that decision? John Hopcroft 06:09 Oh, I suppose you could say finish the seven series of Suits. Simplified a bit, I think I've been something like one week or two weeks into the national lockdown in New Zealand, and I went, Okay, I'm really not doing anything which can help me in the future. I'm not being productive, and I'm wasting this time. I worked out later, something during the COVID lockdown. students like me had 714 hours to postpone. And to take that action, I really saw it as, hey, what can go wrong here. Because a fantastic thing about doing this when you're young. And doing this as a student, is that I have very little risk when I'm starting a competition like this, say if I was an adult, and I had a job and you know, was productive to society, I had far more risks. When I want to start a big project, I have a mortgage, I have a family took a look after I have a bunch of commitments which require my time and my income and my focus. But as a student, especially during say, school holidays, or a pandemic, there's really no consequences to when you try and do something big, you're using up your time. But really, that's already worth nothing, if you just choose to watch Netflix the entire time. So really, my first step into it was just accepting that, hey, I have really nothing to lose here. And the great thing with a website as well, and the software I'm using as works is that it's free to start up a website. Yes. So it just allow me to go into that no risks, no consequences action, where I can be like, Okay, I have to spend the next 700 hours doing this and it fails miserably. But from it, that's fantastic. And I've done something productive during COVID, I've designed a website, which in itself is a pretty cool project, whatever can succeed, and I can move down the path we are now we're starting to build momentum, and starting to really provide some benefits to people all across the world, which is great. Podcast Host 08:07 And one of the things that I really liked what you said there was that you sounded like you're hyper aware of the benefits or advantages of being a student in that you don't have to pay off a mortgage or anything like that, which is very, very true. It's something that I said to students quite regularly. But was there any kind of moment when you were going down this path? Where you were thinking like, Who am I to start this competition? I'm just a, you know, 16 year old from Palmerston North in New Zealand? Shouldn't this be like some debating champion? or shouldn't this be some debating coach or society? Who starts something like this? Was there ever a kind of moment saying I can, who am I to start this? John Hopcroft 08:12 Um, I never personally had that moment. But I experienced that situation, from almost anyone I told the competition about where I was like, Hey, I'm starting this big thing. And they all looked at me, when are you sure? I mean, isn't there something else you can do better? Or the I don't know, just do this intern or something else. But I felt like having that second guessing yourself doesn't really help you in any sort of situation. Because at the time of starting this competition, I was 15 years old, I'd never started anything big like this. I have no experience in the vendor organization. Yeah. But if you look at the past, that's how almost anyone starts. You fall into that bit of conundrum where, okay, I need a job to have experience but I need experience to have a job. Yes. And I saw this as an opportunity to just skip the middleman and just give myself my own experience and learn from it and develop my own opportunities. Because so often now and I remember thinking about this at the time, is that there's a very, very linear path to success same from Sports to academics, okay, I do well, in my sports team, I get captain. If I do well, as a captain, I get selected for the regional to like, get into the national team. Boom, I'm an all black eventually, yes, but there's always so many steps and so many things which can hinder You in that process. And when I saw this as is a way to skip past that linear progress and control myself. So instead of just focusing on academics focusing on maybe becoming the capital of like debating, I saw this as a little shortcut where I can create my own success and own opportunity. Podcast Host 10:20 How has this changed your status as a debater? What do you think people around you are generally thinking? John Hopcroft 10:26 I've never really aimed for having that big status change, I suppose. I suppose when I talk about the success, I think about it very personally, and just reflecting upon myself. And I never want to show off like, hey, look at what I can do I start this big thing, be impressed by my achievements. Um, that was never really a goal, starting the competition. And with that, I don't say openly brag about or try and get people's attention with this competition. So with that, I haven't really seen any major status change at school. However, I have seen recognition from friends from people who usually ignore me. And they go, Okay, yeah, we didn't know you can do that. And that's actually really impressive that you can do something like that. And I think I first experienced that when my when there was the live recording of my TED Talk. So in I think about three or four months ago, I did a TEDx talk about this big journey I did with the cosmos championship, and all the lessons I learned and a lot of what's being covered in this podcast, and a few people from my school, I think, maybe 10 or so watch the live version I and over the phone days, and then over the following weeks of school, I really saw their perspective change on what I'm spending my time on and what this competition is. Because Yeah, everyone initially sort is just okay, storing this time away. But they really saw that perspective change afterwards. Podcast Host 11:56 It can be intimidating for other students to look at you and say, gee, this guy has some clarity, right? Because at the end of the day, what a lot of 15, 16, 17 year olds are looking for is direction and clarity, and achievement in a particular area of strength and a particular area that they can call their own. Do you feel that as being one of the major outcomes for you at this point, that it's kind of helped you understand a little bit more about what you might want to do in the future? John Hopcroft 12:22 I definitely think so. Because I, myself, am a Crimson student, and I've had fantastic support from Crimson Education with this project. And this entire time for the last two years or so. I've been like, wow, wouldn't it be so cool to go to, I don't know, one of the best business schools in the world, you know, your Wharton, your Harvard, top of the class schools. And when I looked at the type of people get into these schools, I never really saw any connection to how I could achieve the exact same thing. And you look at it, and you hear from on the news or not on the radio that, hey, this person just started a project, which benefits thousands of children in Africa, or this person just is the captain of the Math Olympiad or some astonishing achievement. And my perspective, at the time, I saw no way I could achieve the same thing, because I was looking down that almost exact same linear path of Okay, I'm not in a situation I'm not in, I'm not in a city, where I can really get those big opportunities. I mean, I don't mean to disrespect policy, nor in any way. But you do have not as many opportunities are not as big of an opportunity when you aren't and say New York or Singapore, or one of those major hotspots of opportunity. But when I started this competition, I never really intended for it to be a way to boost my profile. But then I began to saw like, Okay, this is beginning to open some doors, and I'm getting some really good experience here. Which even if this project fails, can benefit me in other areas of my life. And I experienced that with the TGC where I was able to get on to the organizing committee for the tiger global Case Competition, thanks to the cosmos championship. Yes. So I felt like starting this competition definitely opened some doors for me, even though I never intended the competition to do that. Podcast Host 14:19 In terms of the skills and the knowledge side of things, one of the things I'm always fascinated by is that I feel like when students like yourself, go into a project like this, there is what you already know. And there's the things that you need to know to make it a success. What knowledge gaps did you need to fill in order to get this up off the ground? John Hopcroft 14:41 I think when starting this competition, um, I was good at writing emails, I was good at speeches, and I was good at math. None of that really got the rights to setting up a big competition like this. But when starting it, I recognized where I need to learn very quickly, I recognized the importance of outreach, the importance of visual design, the importance of setting stuff in a way, which is really easy to follow and engage with people. So I guess the one skill I did have before the competition was my public speaking background, and my email writing and all that, because that allowed me to explore some fantastic outreach opportunities, such as I remember, at the very start, the competition was still a very basic idea. I was able to have a zoom call with the founder or CEO of the urban debate leagues, which I think is one of the biggest debating leagues in the United States with over 11,000 debaters in their program. So that was the one skill which did help me and I think, in general, having that background and public speaking and writing clearly benefits you massively. But apart from that, on the event organization side, I had zero experience, I had no idea how to use Excel. It scared me. I had no idea how to use Wix, I had never done any visual design, I had no experience in Photoshop and Canva. I didn't even know what Canva was at the time, and what the main programs were use now. And at the time, I'd only heard on works through the incessant YouTube ads. Podcast Host 16:16 So there was a lot to learn there. And that's basically how you ended up after you finish suits. You're like, Okay, I'm going to learn all these things, right? John Hopcroft 16:22 Exactly. One of the first things I did was just identify the main challenges for the competition, and try and see what I need to learn to address those challenges. So initially, you had timezones. Okay, how are you going to set up a competition? Which is global, when someone in the US is 12 hours behind me? Podcast Host 16:39 Yes. John Hopcroft 16:39 Or just trying to address those problems? Okay, how am I going to have debates? How much is this going to cost? How am I going to engage with people? How is this going to have any credibility, and a lot of it is just developing and forcing yourself to learn new skills. One of the favorite things I like to do with this competition is work on the website, I that's something I love with it. And I've really began to love visual design, and marketing and that sort of area of this competition. But before I had no idea what it is, but I suppose time and determination can really fix anything, even if you have no idea what to do. Podcast Host 17:17 Do you think it's perfect? John Hopcroft 17:19 Not at all! It's made significant progress over the lock from where it started. There's been significant improvements in how it looks, how it feels, how the competition, the general vibe of the competition, but by no means is it perfect, perfect. And I really doubt in any way, you can make a project like this perfect, I suppose one of the main things I've learned is that there's always something to improve. You can look through the website and be like, Okay, this can be improved, this can be improved. This part of the competition seems unclear. This part of the competition doesn't benefit this group as much as I'd like. So by no means is this competition. Perfect. But I suppose that's nearly impossible to achieve on such a global scale. Podcast Host 18:07 Absolutely. Yeah, I think I mean, it's kind of a facetious question in a way, because I knew the answer would obviously be no. But I think it's one of those things that a lot of people get caught up in perfection, and feeling like they need to have all the answers before starting, when a lot of the questions are still unknown at that point, because it hasn't been tested thoroughly enough to even know all the questions that are going to come up. So were you surprised in those first couple of weeks at how much still needed to be done? Because I, you know, I've started projects before myself, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I've thought about this, this is awesome. I'm going to give it a go. And then you start doing it. And then people are like, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this? And you're just like, Oh my gosh, so many different things come up? Was that a challenge for you? And did you ever feel like, you know, saying, Oh, this is too much work? I'm going to give this up? Or what were your thoughts about some of the challenges you faced along the way? John Hopcroft 19:01 I mean, constantly, there was always challenges like that. And the main challenge, which has hindered this competition, is that as it is debate competition, you need a large amount of registrations to make it as efficient as possible. So in those first few months, I was just sitting there going, Oh, this competition, it's not going to work. There's not enough registrations. I'm only having maybe four people to view the site every day. And it seemed like it was going down that path to fail, really, because there's just this overwhelming challenge, which I was in a situation which was nearly impossible to address. Because how do you get more registrations? Okay, make the website better? How do you do that? I'm already happy with the website. I found myself stuck in a loop where I need more registrations for this competition to start to get more registrations. I need say money, okay, don't have money. I need to prove this. I don't know how I need to outreach more. But that isn't working. So I just, I think you'll always find yourself with one major challenge. And what I found really useful is that as I developed the competition, as I put it on the website, is that I was able to address most of the challenges, because since I didn't really know where it was going, I can ask myself questions as if I'd never seen it before. So I was able to build it in a way which answered most of the questions on how it would work. But there was still that overwhelming question of, okay, more people. How do I get more people? I don't know how. But eventually, it just started to build up itself, surprisingly, through outreach and which improves Seo? Podcast Host 20:42 Yes, yeah. And just kind of starts getting a bit of momentum organically from there. Talk to me a little bit about how you've balanced this with school. John Hopcroft 20:51 I think there is this odd joke in University where you have the triangle of the three essentials, sleep, social life and academics. For me, it's sleep academics and the Cosmos Championship. And I've chosen the route where it has been really challenging, because I've just reduced sleep have reduced the amount of free time and I will admit, I haven't been the best at trying to balance this. And I'll say that is one of my main, I wouldn't exactly say failures. But one of the main drawbacks I've had from this competition, is that there was that major change. When school started in I was like, Okay, this is now a big part of my life. And what do I do with this, because it's starting to pick up? Yes. And I found myself in a very challenging area. And I think that's nearly impossible to avoid, avoid with something like this, where as a high school student, and I'm an accelerant. So doing academics a year above my year level, that was a very hard thing to balance. And I just found myself having to try and push and push to an area I'd never thought I'd be able to go before, usually, for me to do an assessment and might take two or three weeks for the last three assessments of wrote them and two days each, just by staying up for maybe 20 hours of writing 6000 words, which is exceptionally challenging for me to do. But I think that's also a very important skill to learn. And a very important insight about myself, and how difficult it is to do something like this. Podcast Host 22:31 Were you kind of it seems like you're taking on the workload of you know, a student who would be a couple years older, or even like not just a student, a person, he could even be a young professional, who's taking on that kind of workload, balancing all these different things. And you start working out shortcuts and you start working out the limits of your concentration and you start expanding your concentration, you start reducing procrastination, is that something that you went through? And what was that experience like? John Hopcroft 22:58 Before starting a project like this, I would always say that I'm quite a busy person, I spent 10 hours a week, I do pretty high level academics, I do that sort of stuff. But as I pushed more and more, which got increasingly more difficult, I just realized how many more hours there are in a day. Yeah, and how far you are able to push yourself in that area. Because I am most certainly makes made some sacrifices in the amount of free time I have an amount of time I'm able to socialize with my mates outside of school. But I think those sacrifices are necessary to do something like this. And even now, I'm sure that I can be far more busy than I am able to. I think at the most, I think the most busy I've been this year was just last term where it was in the middle of the TGC. And I was just sorting out a management team for the competition. I was in the middle of doing a TED talk and also heading up towards marks. So usually, I'd spend maybe three months on each of those things, except I was doing all of those four things in one month. So it was just a massive squeeze of focus. And I suppose I surprised myself on how much stress can value. That doesn't sound like a very healthy thing. But it's very surprising and actually very satisfying to see how much you can achieve. Because one of the main things which has been able to keep me driven with this is that when you put effort in, you do tend to see it come back. So I made a massive effort investment when I had nothing else to do. But as I had more and more pressure come on to me. I saw success which almost paid off immediately. So for any students in this situation, well it needs to be noted that it is a very challenging situation to be in and it's something which I'm sure that many adults in many high level people throughout their life have to experience but I feel like getting used to That now really sets you up for the future and being able to handle that massive pressure. Podcast Host 25:05 What do you think the students who signed up to be a part of the team? What do you think that they were looking for? Sometimes students literally just want the title and the experience, they just want to be like managing committee of the cosmos championship, and they'll do the most menial task. And they'll be happy with that, as long as they've got the title. Some students, they say, I've got my own ideas, I really want to drive it in this particular direction. So what's it been like managing the team? And what do you think, you know, what have you learned, I guess, about managing students and their expectations in I guess, a volunteer basis that they're on. 25:36 Probably one of the main things that I've learned with this is that passion is a fantastic force for competition like this. And I think every single person on the management team is helping this competition and working on this competition, not just for a title, that are super passionate about and then they all recognize how important and how beneficial this competition can be. So in much the same way, they're doing it for the exact same reason I am doing it because they love what the competition aims to achieve. And they love the direction in which it's going. But and much the same way. I also want to set up, set it up. So they are able to learn how to start something like this on their own. Because we're looking over the applications. And while interviewing these fantastic individuals, they all have these aspirations to do something that drives 100% support. And much like anyone who might be listening to this podcast, they want to achieve the exact same big things, but they don't really know what to do, and they don't really have any idea on how to start. So with that, I want to provide that opportunity to let them engage with this competition, and do much more than boring, menial tasks and actually see how the entire competition looks like. Podcast Host 26:53 One thing that I'd like to just touch on there, john. And I think it's such an important thing, right? where students are buying in with passion, because they know what the goal or mission statement of the project is. And it's more than just debating, it's not just a debating competition, as you said, it's about providing access to international debating during a time of COVID. And during a time, where or Well, you know, historically, were international debating, as you said, is only really for top debaters and for people in addition to be able to afford international travel. So how important is it to have your team and your competitors understand the philosophy and mission statement of the competition that you put together? John Hopcroft 27:38 I think it's exceptionally important that they understand the purpose that everyone understands the purpose of this competition, because it really helps them get into the mindset on how to make the most out of it. As a participant in it. It's really recognizing how unique of an opportunity this is. It also provides that opportunity to create international connections have witnessed that firsthand within the competition, that while debaters debated and waited for adjudicators to finish adjudicating, they started talking about each other and seeing each other's different perspectives, ideas, ideals, and started to form connections between rounds, which I thought was absolutely fantastic. Because when they recognize that this is an international stage, something where you can access from home, but debates on thousands of miles away, you can really make use of creating your own international opportunities. Yeah. And from the management team side, it just really helps them see the purpose and version of this competition. And get behind the idea. Because someone can only do menial or boring tasks for so long, right? Yes, if you don't understand the purpose of something, you can't really get behind it, right. And of course, with any management team, you are going to some stuff which you don't want to do some boring stuff, playing with Excel for a few hours to make sure everything works. I admit, it's not the most exciting thing to do. But when you realize that, hey, when you realize how this boredom or how this pain in the butt will benefit the purpose of this competition, and benefit the audience of this competition, it really allows that passion to drive you. And I need to admit, it needs to be noted that passion, that you can't only hope for passion to drive someone I feel like providing other opportunities are also essential, just to keep that passion going. Podcast Host 29:35 Yeah, exactly, exactly. Now, I just want to just go over one key part of the logistics of the competition, and then we'll get into a little bit more about what you want to do in the future as well and where the competition might be going, and of course, how our listeners can get involved in the cosmos debating championship. Talk to us a little bit about the outrage pace, because obviously that's like such an important part of the competition. It's been a very integral part of what you've been doing and what your team I'm sure is now doing. You've got competitors from all over the world. Talk to us a little bit about what the outreach channels you've been using, what some of the methods that you've seen work, what hasn't worked? Is it really just like searching up emails and finding people on Facebook and messaging them one by one? Or is it some other kind of methods that you've been using as well? John Hopcroft 30:18 Isn't this a variety of methods and how you're able to outreach? Initially, the way I started was just emailing debating organizations, and maybe emailing 10 a day throughout the entire time and developing it, and just hoping to get that response, just sending out that massive variety of cold emails, and waiting for something to paying back. And eventually, you do have situations we did get some support, which was fantastic. But then, as I got involved with the tiger global Case Competition, I learned of all the different ways that you can have outreach opportunities, I think that's a really important thing for students to learn about, is that if you get involved with a project, even much bigger than your own, or something which is already established, you can learn a massive amount on how it works. So with that, I learned about how you can outreach through social media, how you can outreach, through links and setting up profiles on pages such as Crimson ACL, I got some fantastic advice from the Crimson Education ufan team, on how that process works and and how that can benefit the competition. So from an outreach side, I think the best thing you can do really, is just post opportunities, wherever, wherever it's available, and try and contact people and get the name out there, you can just search our database on Instagram, and you come up with 100 profiles of debate teams. And you can do the exact same thing online and get 100 emails or 1000 emails. Podcast Host 31:51 That's some fantastic tips into the outreach side of things. And I hope some students who are looking to outreach to other organizations take heed of that. But yeah, let's talk about your future, John, and I know that you're aiming for top international universities, why have you decided to take that route as opposed to applying to local universities? John Hopcroft 32:10 Well, I think initially, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going with a local university, like University of Auckland, we'll go to something across the ditch. But I feel like one of the most important things is that trying to maximize your opportunity and what paths can be set out for you. Because what I found is that these same next eight years from the age group of maybe 16, to 23, the career you choose, and really the scale of that career is locked in when you decide to go with in that time. And I feel like to really make the most out of that anyone should try and push themselves as far as possible. And you can say that about anything you can say, well, there's really nothing wrong with I don't know, being a local car salesman, but wouldn't be so much more interesting. It's so much more fun to say be selling space shuttles or something much larger than that, right? Yeah, I suppose the main appeal of those top universities isn't really the name of it. But I feel like putting yourself under the pressure to solely have that possibly arrogant persona of being able to say you went to an Ivy League is a irresponsible reason to go to such a top school, I think it's more being able to go to such a school and make use of the massive amount of opportunity there. Because whatever effort I put in now, or the next eight years, can pay off tenfold over the next 50 years. So when you go to such a massively well connected, well established, well respected school, it sets up someone like me to just push further and further and further. Podcast Host 33:47 What's next for the Cosmos debating championship and how can students get involved? 33:51 I suppose the next thing for the Cosmos Championship for my end is to try and make sure as many people can benefit from the opportunities available with the competition. So just getting it out more outreach, more engagement with communities all across the world. And for any students listening who want to get engaged or get involved with the competition, you can just sign up on global debating.org and follow the four simple steps on the homepage. And if you want to get involved, possibly with the management, cyber competition, we have a few opportunities posted on the Crimson ECL. And could I add one more note, Alex? I think even when looking at your admissions to say top schools such as the Ivy League and Oxbridge. You should never really start a project like this for the purpose to get into one of those skills. Yeah, because I think that's a misplaced direction on what you want to achieve with it. And almost setting yourself up for failure because you're not doing it to see the competition success, using it for some additional personal gain which people can't really get behind. So while trying to push yourself to get into an Ivy League is fantastic. Stick. It's important that you do it for the right reasons. And that sure you can target getting into such a great university. But you should have focus and why you're doing the things you are. Podcast Host 35:11 If it comes across as genuine and if it comes across as self serving people will be able to smell it out. Right? And but if it comes across as something that's genuine, that makes the world a better place and wants to bring students together or whatever it wants to do. People can see that and get behind it. And that's exactly what they've done with the cosmos championships. Well, thank you so much for joining us, john. We look forward to having our listeners back for another episode of Top of the class soon, but in the meantime, keep safe and keep well, and keep on debating at the Cosmos Championship. John Hopcroft 35:41 Cheers Alex.

Ep #6 Winning the VEX Robotics World Championship and Breaking Glass Ceilings in STEM

🗓 NOV 9, 2020

See transcript

Jamie Beaton: 0:00 Welcome to Top of the Class, our podcast in which we take a deep dive into the minds of some of the world's highest achieving young people to figure out what makes them tick. And they're part of success in some of the world's most exciting competitions. I'm your host, Jamie Beaton, and today I'm honored to be here with Jia Dua. Now Jia has got a long list of achievements Robertson scholar, Princeton admit, she was involved in launching one of the first global online high schools in the world. But today, what's most exciting is she's actually the three times VEX Robotics World Champion. So we're very excited to learn more about that. Welcome to the show, Jia. Jia Dua: 0:50 Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Jamie Beaton: 0:54 Fantastic. So why don't you take us, I guess, right back to the beginning. And you know, winders, back to high school. So how did you first get involved in VEX Robotics? What is it and kind of how did you find out about this robotics competition? Jia Dua: 1:08 So I just walked into it completely blind. I think we had like something on the news thing, like, you know, there's a robotics club, come join, come hang out. And I was expecting something, you know, way more sophisticated than what I walked into. It was literally three boys in a garage after school. So I really didn't know what VEX was, when I started, I was just keen to learn. But for those of you who aren't familiar, VEX is, I think officially the world's largest student robotics competition. And it caters to kids who are all the way like in elementary school, but also up to high school and university level. And basically how it runs is every year, they put out like a game based engineering challenge. So it's hard to describe, because they'll have like these weird objects and these weird objectives. But what you have to do is you have to design, build, and then program and drive a robot to compete in it. So I kind of just walked in, I was like, I don't even know what robotics is, I don't even know how to like, build the first thing. But that's what I turned out to learn. So yeah, very, very random beginning of the journey. Jamie Beaton: 2:13 That was them. And I think what's particularly, I guess, rare about this from New Zealand is we don't really have a big history if a lot of students getting involved in robotics. So I haven't come across many students that at your age in school kind of explored this path. So it wasn't something that was like, I guess, prominent within your school community, or what were you guys, one of the first year groups to really explore victory or school? Jia Dua: 2:37 Yeah, that's actually a really good point, I think I got quite lucky cuz, um, well, first of all, we have to be honest fixes kind of an expensive competition to be involved in, which is part of the reason like it's not always prominent in every place. And I went to a public school, so you wouldn't really imagine it to be the type of place where they are cranking that. But two of the boys I did it with the dad was a mechanical engineer. So he just happened to have like a whole bunch of tools at home. He had like drills, he had saws, all sorts of stuff. So it kind of made our job a little easier is like a springboard and New Zealand is like, it's just one of those weird countries where it seems to have quite a strong community for this specific competition. So there's like an organization called Kiwi bots, and they run lots of competitions, they mentor a lot of kids. So that's how I got involved in that there. There are actually quite a lot of people and quite a lot of resources in that regard. In America, it's huge. Other parts of the world, it depends, but in most big cities, yet, you'll find lots of teams and lots of schools get involved in it. Jamie Beaton: 3:39 And so when you think about robotics, I imagined someone you know, coding this complicated robot thinking about physics, and these, you know, funky math equations to get started in VEX, what level of kind of content do you need to know as a high schooler? What the barrier to entry for this? Jia Dua: 3:55 It's definitely like harder than like. So one thing people always ask me is, how do I get started. And honestly, it's tricky, because there's so many things you can get involved in. But that's why it's fun. As a team team bass sport, you could call it if you want to call it a sport, I like to call it a sport. So there's the programming element. And what they use is called robot See, which is kind of like c++. And anyone can learn it online. And you can even like practice it with simulators. So you don't actually need any software, any hardware to do it. And then in terms of the building, it's like one interesting thing about fixes you can't really Google like guides on how to build a robot necessarily, but you can google like, how I build a chassis, or how do I build a robot that can lift up to you know, x height? Or how do I build something that collects balls. So those are really good places to start. And you'll find tutorials for that, that teach you kind of everything you need to know. And I think of it kind of like, it's like your library or your toolkit. You know, once you learn all of these things, it's like a jigsaw. And every year based on the competition, they put out you can be like, Okay, well, that would be a useful thing to try put on a robot, combine it with this, see if it works or if it blows up and go from there. So yeah, definitely takes a little bit of learning. But all you need to start off with is a few motors, some metal, and even like a hand hacksaw will do. So I wouldn't be too intimidated about just getting into it and trying. It's not one of those things where there's like a syllabus that you have to get through before you can make anything. Jamie Beaton: 5:27 Wow, brilliant. Okay, exciting. And so walk me back to kind of the first competition you got involved in? Did it come naturally to you? Did you perform well, from like, day one minute into this thing? How did that first competition look like? Jia Dua: 5:38 So honestly, my first it was probably my first six months to even a year where I didn't even compete on my own. So I was more like watching older kids compete. And that was where I kind of built up my design understanding. Because up till that point, like I wouldn't have even been able to tell you like what a gear ratio is, or how to like calculate it, or the different types of motors and sensors you can use. So that to me was like a good way of a like understanding what I was getting myself into, because a huge time investment to try build a robot and building those skills. When we did start, it was like a real mixed bag. The nice thing is that these are like year long competitions. So you can afford to make a fool of yourself that like the first few ones that you turn up to while you're still learning. And that's actually like a strategy I see a lot of people doing, they'll turn up with really, really crappy robots that have put no effort into the first time, see what everyone else is doing, kind of plagiarize some good ideas and take it from there. And that's one cool thing I really like about VEX is you're not in it alone and sharing ideas isn't something that's looked down upon. It's very, like, collaborative, and how can you build upon other people's innovation? Jamie Beaton: 6:51 Interesting. That's super cool. Okay. So when you have, for example, like the Math Olympiad, right, there's like, you know, city based competitions, national competitions in international competitions, how does the victory robotics sort of lead or work around the world? You know, what is the sort of first thing you get involved in, and then what are all the different rounds that you kind of pass through to get to those global finals? Jia Dua: 7:11 Locally, you have things called scrimmages, which is just a fancy way to say robotics competition. But you know, we like to be nerdy like that. So those happen year round. Normally, they'll start in about April, which is when like, the new game is released for each year at the World Championships. And they'll maybe be like one scrimmage every two months for a couple months. And as you get closer to nationals and World Championships, they'll become more frequent. So you have those regional tournaments. In most small countries, almost everyone is invited to the national tournament. In bigger countries, you have to qualify based on how you performed throughout the year in those regional tournaments. And then what they do at like proper competitions, so regional ones normally, like it doesn't actually matter how you perform, you just turn up to practice and meet other people and just get better. When you get to nationals and internationals. We call them World Championships. That's when it matters. So they have round robin sections. So normally, it's about 10 rounds. And the part I like the most is you get completely randomly paired with another team fit each and every single round. So there's like a lot of diversity, I have to be prepared for just about anything. And then the people who perform best in those round Robins, they get picked, but you know, semies quarters and Grand Finals in each of those respective tournament's. So generally the people who win the national tournament get qualified for worlds. And then they have a few other likes special awards. So there's a programming award for the team with the best programming a robot skills, one for the people who drive their robots the best. And also an Excellence Award for a team that has overall the like most innovative design, and it's just good at everything kind of but may not necessarily have won the tournament itself. Jamie Beaton: 9:01 Awesome. And so I guess I'm thinking about one of these rounds, and what do you kind of actually do to compete? So let's take debating, you know, you've got two teams standing up, the top will get thrown up. And you know, you'll speak off some prepared remarks, probably a bit of improvised commentary. And there's a clear winner. So when you said these kind of two teams get paid to get in Round Robin, and then they go and compete. What are they competing? What's the rubric look like? How does that work? Jia Dua: 9:25 So what you have is like you have this massive playing field, it's like 12 foot by 12 foot. And you have to Google what it looks like because it changes every year based on the game. But basically, you have every round you call it around your competition is two minutes long. And the first 15 seconds is fully automated. So this is stuff you have to do before you turn up to the match. You'll have pre written a bunch of programming code that gets uploaded into your robot and when they start the competition, it just automatically starts moving. And basically you have to program it to respond to the surroundings. Without any input from you or your team, so that's the first 15 seconds. And based on how you do in that pot, there'll be one team who wins and get some, like bonus points from that period. And then the other minute 45 is called driver control. So one person on your team has like, it's like a literal controller, it's like you're playing a PlayStation, but it's like this, like cheeky robot on the field instead. And so you're working with a teammate to might be like, score a bunch of balls into the net, so build these towers of cubes. And there's like, lots of different modes of playing, like, you can be hella aggressive and like, get into other people's ways, like, you know, knock their towers over, or you can be quite defensive. And there might be one person on the team scoring and one person blocking the other apartment, something like that. So at the end of the game, basically, they'll tally up your points that will be based on like, how many things you scored, and how you did in the autonomous period. And that's how they determine a winner. Jamie Beaton: 10:59 And for that second period, which is driver controlled, how much of the success comes from the quality of the robot versus the, you know, the driving skills of the person kind of manning the controls? Jia Dua: 11:09 I would say like, it's really balanced, because you need a good robot to do well in the competition. Because honestly, like a bad robot, just like it won't be able to keep up, so you'll see things like people with robots whose motors keep burning out because they didn't think about like the weight distribution of the robot really well. Or, for example, you know, someone comes and knocks over your robot and you've fallen over and now you can't get back up. So useless for the rest of the round. So that just you know, that renders you pointless in the game. But driver skills are really important as well. And it's a super like, I think, from the outside a part of the game that gets overlooked a lot. So my team, I think, we probably in an average year did like, at least 1,000 hours of driver practice before like World Championships, because depending on the object, sometimes it was like picking up these bowls that are stacked and little pyramids from around the field. And that actually requires a lot of precision. Even if you have a really good robot. So very 50/50 it's, it's fun, because there's something for everyone. Like, you don't have to be this math wizard to do robotics. You can just like eSports and gaming and happen to partner with someone who maybe likes the math part, someone else who likes the programming part. And yeah, just someone who likes to talk to people and, you know, create partnerships and alliances. So there's lots of different skills involved. Jamie Beaton: 12:33 Wow, I didn't realize that was a drive element. That's super interesting. I'm thinking of all the practice of Windows. Okay, I guess that that leads nicely into this question. So some extracurriculars just take a ton of time. So for example, come back to math Olympiad. You know, the students that I speak to that have won gold and math Olympiad have often devoted the majority of the extra time to math for six, seven years to get to this point, I guess, specifically, in your case, you know, how many hours are you putting into VEX in the beginning? How did it evolve? Kind of how long does it take? How many hours would it take to become the world champion of VEX robotics? Jia Dua: 13:05 Um, it's definitely not for the faint hearted. I'll say that much. The nice thing is that, like your time commitment can be varied throughout the year. So I would say on average, pretty much every week of the school year, we were doing robotics for at least an hour to an hour and a half, most days after school pretty consistently year round. That said, it wasn't like necessarily every single day, like some weekends, I'd do the whole weekend, and then not do the week at all. And then it also depends on your teammates. So like, if you have different people in charge of different parts of the robot, that like time allocation can become much less. So for example, I'll build the robot, you program it like two separate jobs. In our case, I guess all of us were quite eager to learn and eager to make sure we all had like around a bunch of skill sets. So everyone wanted to turn off and show up so they wouldn't miss out on any part of that process. I will say, though, that like that, certainly not necessary. And you will see that like, at least if you bring a regional tournament, there's lots of people who have quite basic robots, and they still have a grand old time and they learn a lot in that process. And it can be like a good springboard to other things. So some people start VEX realize, you know, I hate building stuff. I don't like using my hands and I don't want my nails to get shipped, which is a phase I went through too. And so they go learn Arduino or focus on programming instead. So the time commitment is up to you, but be seriously competitive. Yeah, hundreds, thousands of hours a year. Definitely. Jamie Beaton: 14:37 Incredible. I love that. It's good to be as clear that, you know, to get to that world champion level does take a lot of time. I mean, an hour a day, consistently over all those years is a ton of time into this. Now thinking about the team, you mentioned that your team, you know, was overly keen to kind of learn the various skills, how do you think about team composition So coming back to debating that the role of say the first speaker and a third speaker will be very Different, you know, in certain types of debating, the third speaker might not actually be very good at thinking if you know key points to advance, but you're actually is very adaptable and kind of responsive for the opposing team's case. So when you think about your VEX robotics team, I'm sure to sort of do well within your country, maybe you don't have to think about it so carefully. But to win the World Championship, I'm sure your team's gonna be incredibly well optimized. So how do you think about team competition? And what are some of the, you know, winning characteristics of a leading VEX robotics team? Hmm. Jia Dua: 15:29 So obviously, like that hard work and dedication is like the main thing that you need from every single team member, because it's just not a competition you can do alone, there's just way too much to do. And we've really only talked about the element of like building the robot and everything that happens like outside of the competition sitting. But like, for example, when you get to the World Championships, there's like 1000, teams from like, dozens of different countries. And so being good in your division is like, not enough, you need someone out there like scouting and seeing what the competition can do so that you know what you're up against, if you get partnered, or like paired against a certain team. And then when it gets to picking opponents, you need to know what they're up to, as well. So I would say like, there has to be a mix of technical skills and soft skills in every team. So for example, it may Connor, it was predominantly him. And I most of the time working on the same robot, like really dedicatedly. He's very good at mechanics and has a real eye for like, visualizing how mechanisms will work together. And, you know, looking at a robot and seeing you know, where it's not well optimized, I think I was probably better at like the programming part of things. So if you looked at Connors code, if Connor listens to this, he's gonna hate me. But everything would be based on like time, so you want the robot to go one meter, he'd be like, okay, that's like roughly like point seven, five seconds. And you can do it based on time. Whereas I would normally use like PID, which involves like calculus to get the robot to self optimize distances and acceleration so that it's really consistent. So you have to have people who like have different ways of viewing the same problem to create a robot that will be really versatile in different circumstances. Because that is ultimately what you end up with is you end up with sometimes teammates who are really strong, really different things to you are really good at the same thing. As you see, you need to have like lots of diversity in what you're capable of pulling off. Jamie Beaton: 17:31 Makes a lot of sense. And just for the non math listeners out there, what is PID, and how does that work? Jia Dua: 17:37 So that was quite a niche example. It stands for potential integral derivative. And so basically, it uses this idea. So in robotics, what a lot of beginners make mistakes with is, for example, if you want to get to x location, the fastest to grab whatever object is there, you're just like gonna put your motors on like top speed, and then it stops, like right when you get to that distance. And normally, what happens is you overshoot because like, in reality, like robots don't work like that, right? Like this friction, your motors get worse, the more you use them, when your robots battery's low, it slows down. So those aren't very, like effective at being consistent over hundreds and hundreds of runs. So what this does is using senses, for example, like an encoder on your wheel, it can tell exactly how many rotations the left side has done versus the right side to make sure it's going like the right distance in the right direction and accelerating and decelerating at the right time, so that it will really consistently reach the same location each time. So that's just like one example. But it works with like, not just driving and turning, but also lifting your robot or in taking things and like throwing balls out stuff like that. Jamie Beaton: 18:54 Awesome. Walk me through your favorite robot you've developed? You know what unique design characteristics that have, you know, what kind of engineering breakthroughs did you have in there? I'm keen to understand just how kind of complicated this gets. So can you walk me through kind of your favorite from all those different competitions? Jia Dua: 19:10 My favorite robot was the one we made in our second year of competing, and it was a competition called Skyrise. So I really like this because our robot was literally bigger than me, when you opened it up. It was like about five foot five, and I'm like five foot. So it's like a running joke. I couldn't carry my own robot and the school edition. So uh, one one cool thing about VEX is to make it like an even game. For people with different resources. Everyone has to use the exact same pot and everyone has to have a robot that starts in the same size. So it's 18 inches cubed. That's like the volume you start in. And so this robot was really cool because it started as this tiny thing, and then it opened up to this huge height. And so we needed like rows of rows of we call them like double four bars. To lift the robot. And then the other thing we had was, you had to create these towers out of these cones that you can stack. So the issue with that is that we had a limited number of modems, we were allowed to use on the robot. And because you've got this thing that opens up to such a big height, it's really heavy. So we needed almost all the robots on the drive just to keep it moving around the field and actually being productive. So we use pneumatics. Instead, which is on you have like a tank of air effectively on your robot, and use that to open and close this little coil that picks up these little cones and like puts them into place to create a tower. And then you had pneumatics on, I hope I'm explaining this well, but you had an arm as well. And so it would lock on to these cubes that you had to then stack on the tower you've built. So like, honestly, at the end of that year, like I was gobsmacked by what we'd created it. And I think like, that wasn't just true of our team. It was true. So many teams that Yeah, because it was just these like, intense robots that was so multifunctional just to play the game, you needed to be able to do so many different things. And like learning how to fit that all into one tiny little size box at the start. I learned a lot that Yeah, I was really proud of that robot. Jamie Beaton: 21:16 Wow. I mean, it's incredible hearing this, I think a lot about how you know many students doing the pretty standard subjects and maybe a little bit of debating a bit of maybe more united nations. But it's really interesting to see that you took this is junctions, robotics, and then you're building such incredible robots while in high school. That sounds like the kind of thing that you would imagine like some MIT, you know, grad students working on. So it's very inspiring, I think, and how sophisticated are these robots? So like, you know, are the robots that wins for example, VEX robotics, you know, if you went to, for example, like a Caltech lab, would they be significantly different? Or is it the kind of thing where to get to the level that you did in robotics, you've really got to be operating it, you know, a standard that far exceeds what a typical high schooler, you know, can do? And just how complicated does this get relative to these, you know, top engineers in the world? Jia Dua: 22:04 That's a really good question. I would say like, if you are like a neutral observer, or just turning up to a robotics competition, like, you could be super intelligent and really overwhelmed by what you're observing, because you've never seen anything like that before. Like, we all have fridges, and microwaves and cars, but like, none of us understand, like, what's under the hood, right? Like, you don't know how the axles connect to how the gears connect. But once you start seeing that, it becomes a lot more organic and natural really quickly, and you start to see the patterns and how one movement leads to another movement. So I'd say like anyone's capable of doing it. To get to that level, it definitely requires a lot of time and personal investment. Because the big thing I found is that like, at the end of the day, you're quite alone in the sense that every year it's a new game. So even if they were guides online, like one robot that won worlds last year, is going to be like the worst robot on the field if you tried to reuse it the next year. So in that sense, yes, technical and challenging. But the nice thing about VEX is that you have to use the same parts. So certain modules that are built for you that like to some people, it would be frustrating because it limits your possibilities. But when you've already got such technical challenges, it just means that you know, it's a clearer little constraint, and it's more like solving the puzzle. Yeah. Okay. Make sense? Um, now, Jamie Beaton: 23:29 We've talked a lot about what makes VEX distinctive, and, you know, some of the characteristics of this competition that you haven't seen in other parts of the sort of STEM world and Olympiad or, you know, other things like debating, but to win these global competitions, there's a sort of certain mentality that's required irrespective. So, you know, this is kind of like the pressure that you might feel the World Championships, particularly defending your title, etc. So, I guess, walk me through what it was like, you know, the first time you won VEX World Robotics, you know, these championships, what was the psychology? You know, how did you feel walk me through the sort of those feeling aspects of this as opposed to the hardcore robotics? Jia Dua: 24:03 I mean, honestly, I think back now, and there wasn't a lot of nervousness, there was just a lot of excitement, because it's a really social competition as well. And along the way, you literally have to meet people interact with so many people just to get through the rounds. Forget qualifying for worlds. So that was super awesome. I think like my favorite memory was, in my final year, we really wanted to partner up with a steam. They were from China, and they didn't speak any English. And I was like, so determined to partner with them. But that mentor who was like full on Adult he didn't he didn't want us to compete with them. He wanted them to partner with another Chinese team from the same area. And I tell you, I probably spent like three hours at the pit, which is like where they will sit up during you know, breaks and whatnot. And I was just thinking like, how do we get these people to like, like me, how do we like convince them that we're worth being Friends with and like doing this with. And in the end, it was just the funniest thing, like, I learned how to say dumpling in Chinese because I was like, I can't say anything else. But they found that super funny, and then they were way more willing to talk to us. So I think like, that's a really cool part of the competition in terms of the actual, like, strategic play, um, worlds is no different to like every single scrimmage like locally or nationally, it's just that your competition is more intense. So I personally think that most of the work was done before we ever turned up, it was like an older practice you did before you got there. And then actually, while you're there, the biggest part was just being super strategic. So this is one thing we learned after probably like years competing, actually, is that you don't actually have to be super complex to win. So we had the super fancy autonomous, which is that pre programmed period I talked to you about. And that year, what a lot of other teams were doing, who really didn't have very strong programs at all, instead of trying to compete with you, they just like program their robot to knock yours so that it couldn't do the rest of what it was meant to do. And that was like a winning strategy. So I think that was like really reflective of like real world engineering as well, where like, really knowing a lot of fancy stuff comes in handy, like 10% of the time, just being logical is normally what will make you successful. Yeah, I hope that answers your question. I skirted about it a little bit. Jamie Beaton: 26:28 Definitely and I guess just building on that, um, how did your psychology change from sort of the first time to say the third time, you know, you won this competition? So I guess, I'm sure these social elements are true. The first time and I'm sure that sure all the time. But I'm sure the expectations of you, you know, your own desire to kind of maintain that title and position. I mean, there's must be more pressure probably, in the later years, maybe that first year as you kind of had nothing to lose the first time you stood up. Recently, I was listening to an Olympian who had won a gold medal at the Olympics, and then had kind of come back and felt the pressure to kind of hit that goal, again, was just super high. And as a result, the competition just felt significantly different to that very first time they went. So in your case, how is it second or third one verse? The first? Would you say the same thing? Or did you feel significantly different? Jia Dua: 27:13 Funnily enough, I felt a lot less pressure, like it was almost the reverse situation, because it was like, you know, you turn up and these teams have like sponsorship from Nike, they getting like $30,000 a year. And it kind of felt good to be like, you know what, like, you don't need all of that, at the end of the day, like, we only have the same volume in which to put a robot. So less is actually more, and it felt really good to have been able to prove that I think I became like a lot more strategic and creative with the years and in some ways, it probably wasn't even a technical change. So we started keeping like design notebooks on which I think we will like, just helped us be a bit more polished. Instead of doing like, hundreds of iterations, we made smart decisions and just saved ourselves time, throughout the year. And then at the competition itself, it was a lot more strategic in terms of thinking about how you get the attention of judges, for example. So one thing people don't talk about is that because you're randomly paired with teams throughout the competition, like there are lots of scenarios with good robots don't make it to the finals, because they've just had bad pairings and you have to be ready for that reality. So I was like, Well, what else can we do to make sure that we'll succeed, regardless of like, things that are outside of our control, one of those things, obviously was like, insane drive skills. So we practiced to the point where we were scoring the highest points on our own in the whole world, and you get an award for that on its own. So we focused on different elements of the competition. And then the third thing was just like, the psychology of the massive competition, too. So there's like thousands of robots, all of them look really similar, because they're all made out of all the same materials. It's like, how do you convince the judge to come to your specific station and like, pay attention to you. And one thing I thought of was, like, why not put something on a robot that they could never expect to see on it, like, flowers, for example. And so I just focused on making a robot look pretty, which was never something I would have done in my first year, because honestly, I would have felt like, you know, people gonna judge me, they're gonna think I'm the girl on the team who's not there, because she has any technical skills. She just likes to draw. And I was like, You know what, I don't care what anyone thinks. And it happened to work because we had this like, really good robot on the field. But it was also like, attractive, and it meant people wanted to come up and ask questions. And on some level, it was like, kind of cheating the system because you just got a lot more judges coming up to you. Whereas normally, they'd be allocating their time, probably more evenly across different teams. So yeah, little things like that. The things I picked up just from years of competing is that you know, you can't not do well without a good technical robot, but there's so many Many other things, so many parts of human psychology that also make a successful team. Jamie Beaton: 30:05 That's fascinating just for the readers, I should say the listeners out there, when it comes to these judges, so the way you describe kind of affording a judges attention, you know, in other competitions is like a judge assigned to each room so to speak. So that's not kind of like part of the game. How does it work in VEX you sort of need to get the stretch attention, as opposed to them just being kind of distributed evenly. That's quite a unique attribute I haven't heard off before and a high school competition. Jia Dua: 30:27 So in VEX, I actu lly don't know exactly how the udging works. That's not some hing I don't know if they ever necessarily put out tran parently. But the idea is that there's so many robots, you can retty obviously see which ones are better than others, just by watching a few games like you'll be able to tell like this one's gonna go far this one likely isn't. So that was ike an immediate like sele tion cut process. And apart from that, so the judges aren't real y there for the comp titions themselves, because it's point based. So there's a clea , decisive winner. They're ther for things like excellence awar s. So you know, which team has he most innovative design, and nnovative doesn't mean, you' e necessarily the best robo out there. But it means that like you didn't copy like 100 ther people who had like this one design that seems to work really well for this game. What type of challenges did you go t rough? So one of the things we t lked to judges about was PID. At the time, that wasn't some hing that a lot of teams were incorporating into their robo s. So lots of teams use sens rs, like gyroscopes, and enco ers to make their robots like more efficient, but very few eople were incorporating like actual hard math and calc lus. So that was an inte esting point of discussion. And hen there's also another elem nt of like, you know, givi g back to your community. Beca se, as we've spoken about, like robotics, yeah, it's not the asiest thing to get your foot in the door with. And so team that make an effort to crea e resources for other stud nts in the future, or ment rship. And so that's what the udges were interested in, goin around different tables. Jamie Beaton: 32:07 Awesome. And you mentioned, the idea that, you know, you you were nervous at the beginning of being judged for thinking through kind of how to make this robot more attractive, but then actually became this huge competitive edge. So that's really good bridge into this topic of broadly, you know, women in STEM, and I think about robotics, I think about probably, you know, a sea of guys, to be honest, doing math, physics and calculus. And this probably isn't necessarily accurate today. But I think about, for example, the physics competitions that I competed in, when I was in high school seven years ago or so. And it was just very skewed in terms of genders. So when you think about VEX, kind of what what are these rooms look like at the beginning? Did it change at all in your in your series of doing VEX, and you know, how did that kind of play to either your advantage or not? As you kind of looked at this as a woman? Jia Dua: 32:52 Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely improving. So I haven't been to World Champs in a few years now. But when I started, I would say maybe a ratio of like, 30 boys to one girl, honestly. And I definitely saw an improvement just in like the three, four years that we traveled internationally to compete. Definitely like, I think more than in those big rooms, because at the point at which you're at a world championship, you've probably like, hyped yourself up, psych yourself up, you're like, I deserve to be here. Like, clearly my robot is good. Not to say that it isn't still intimidating, but you have that to like, back you up. The real challenge was in smaller rooms closer to home, where it's like, you want to be part of this team. And I'm not saying the guys aren't nice, so friendly. Like most of them try their best. They just don't know what it's like to be the only person in the room who looks a certain way, or who comes from a certain background. So I think like, for me, the scariest part was like initially getting involved in it, cuz honestly, like, I did feel like a the token girl and be kind of the fool because I just didn't know anything. And I look back now and I'm like, it makes sense that I didn't know anything, because I was never like, given the opportunity to learn. Like, I think the closest thing I ever got to like a stem gift as a child was like Lego. And even then it was like a gift we got from my little brother. But I like selfishly chose something that I could play with as well. But like when I was given, you know, kits to like, make stuff it was like, make your own bath bombs and make your own perfumes. It was never like, learn how to build a car or like you know how to use like a radio or something like that. So it's kind of just getting over this barrier of like, you have to ask the stupid questions. If you want to learn otherwise you will you know, you will be the person in the room has no idea what's going on, but you just have to embrace it. And it so happens that generally the girls in the room will be those ones initially because it's changing but how many girls do you know who you give gifts like that to still and that's a question we probably need to keep asking ourselves and changing our behaviors around. Jamie Beaton: 35:00 Totally, and I think about, you know, this and other areas, for example, you know, in finance, you know, many, it's probably highest achievers that go through Vex robotics, like yourself end up going to these incredible US universities, UK universities and stuff. And many of those people didn't go on to, you know, many careers. And a popular one would be, you know, working on Wall Street. And I think about, you know, how skewed For example, some of these incoming classes are of investment bankers. And then if I think about even the incoming classes, verse, you know, what the partners look like, and it must be pretty intimidating to look up and see, you know, not that much representation, frankly. So I think that's a very healthy trend changing. And I think it's a really powerful message for young girls listening that, you know, this is a movement, this is a bit of a wave, this is a recent, you know, change in the last several years, but it's becoming more and more and more common. And actually, these young girls are being, you know, champion a lot of the time, which is super exciting. Jia Dua: 35:50 Yeah, the thing is, even if you are the only girl in the room, and even if that is intimidating, like people love, like being able to invest in someone and rally behind someone, like they want to invest in you, even if that is male mentors, of which I had so many, like, if I only had female mentors, I probably wouldn't have been a world champion, because there just weren't enough people out there in my vicinity, who were of that demographic who had this knowledge. But it's also important to have like a combination. So, for example, I'd say my mum was a huge mentor to me, even though she doesn't have a stem background at all. But she was more of an advocate in terms of what it feels like to be the outsider in the room, and how to keep my wits about myself, how also to like, articulate in the moments that I felt like I was maybe being discriminated against in little ways that made me feel kind of bad about myself. And then I had male mentors who like, maybe they started off as technical mentors. And as I got better at understanding and articulating how I was feeling, they were people I could also share, you know, this is something a lot of guys do. Sometimes you do as well, it doesn't make me feel really great. It's something you could be mindful of. And it was really like empowering to me to appreciate that, like, those can be positive conversations, they don't always have to feel like you know, you've like hurt me and you've done all of this and you suck, and it's like me against you like there's ways to have productive conversations and ways to be more inclusive without conflict necessarily. Jamie Beaton: 37:22 But I think today is a very unique day to be discussing these things. With the election, I guess we think of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and Kamala being the first ever female Vice President and also a woman of color in this role. We're talking about this earlier action before the podcast kicked off, but it How are you feeling today? What do you think this means young woman around the world? Jia Dua: 37:42 I feel so excited, Jamie, I can't even tell you. And my mom actually, she This made me laugh because she was like, my friends had been sending me this quote on WhatsApp. It's like, ladies put your shoes on because there's glass everywhere. Like what does this mean? And I was like mom, like, yes, glass ceilings. I was like, Mom, how did you not pick up on that. But I think like, it is an important day to talk about it. Because at the point where like, we're at a time when society is seeing like the first woman in a powerful political position in America of this nature. That says a lot, right? So for me, like as a woman in STEM, I guess I won't lie and say there's not going to be moments where you're still going to walk into a room and feel a little out of place, or intimidated or like, you know, you're going to look around, and there's not going to be a lot of people who look like you. But that's okay. And for me, the most empowering thing was realizing that being the different one is actually an advantage in and of itself, when I have enough confidence to really own and embrace it. It's just about getting to that stage. Jamie Beaton: 38:46 Well, I think very, very wise words. And definitely, I think this is a way that's really growing momentum. You know, clearly, I think Kamala Harris doesn't represent this from the beginning, but rather an important moment in this movement. And I think it will only kind of grow and grow and grow. And I think a lot of messaging is about kind of what it means for the young girls in that room. The high schoolers maybe even younger, that are looking at this and thinking about kind of what it means for their own kind of career ambitions. So I guess on that note, you know, what is your vision for what you want to achieve in the future? You've got so many options, you could probably do anything you want in your career, what are you thinking about at the moment? Jia Dua: 39:21 That's a good question, Jamie. I don't actually know right now. Honestly, my, my interests like career wise and very much reflective of the same type of curiosity that had me like fall in love with robotics in the first place. I walked into that room on a whim like knowing I didn't know anything, and I was just curious to learn. And that's kind of been the same with other interests of mine as well. Like, I'm quite interested in politics. I'm quite interested in social change. And I'm quite interested in like, you know, artistic things like design. So I'm very much still at a point in my life where I'm trying to find a way those things intersect that also be you know, as stable, fulfilling career for me. I think one thing I've done recently that's been really exciting that you mentioned earlier was helping launch online high school that you've created. And so I think for me probably like startups like that other way forward, I'd love to create something of my own at some point. But right now still very much, just trying to figure out how to make these different interests and to see it Jamie Beaton: 40:24 awesome. And I think about the pathway have chosen for university to go into the US, which is, you know, one of the countries where you can really explore different majors, you can explore different courses. At Harvard, for example, you know, I wasn't just forced to take like, say economics, but I could take things like business in China entrepreneurship and ethical reasoning. And I know, you know, you're actually exploring different pathways. So how's that flexibility in the US kind of played to your advantage? any drawbacks? And would you make the same choice again, to go to America for college? Jia Dua: 40:53 Yeah, this isn't a bit question, I would definitely make the same choice 1000 times over, I think, I'm not to say that other places aren't incredible for school as well. Like, I think, especially in New Zealand, I've been so lucky with the options I've had. But the scale of these colleges and the resources you have on them, I really can't describe It's crazy. I think in terms of like the liberal arts education, as an engineer, maybe I haven't had the opportunity to really like make the most of that as much till this point. So I started off doing a mechanical engineering degree. And I think I did that, because we had had a lot of success with robotics. So it felt like the natural progression. And I got a year and a half into that. And I was like, you know, like, actually, I'm not sure this is the right thing for me, I have decided to swap to econ and computer science now. So that's been been one interesting thing is that a degree doesn't necessarily have to be it's like, how do you find all the right skills to complement what you want to do. And I think like, for me, I learned a lot of the technical skills I think I want and I need, really, from my time in robotics, outside of the school environment completely. And so now I'm using my college time to understand how business works, and how you can take like these creative technical ideas and turn them into something viable in the real world. So that's kind of the way I'm doing my degree. But definitely the flexibility of being able to learn a bunch of different things, and combine degrees in ways that you can't, in most other countries has been really awesome. Jamie Beaton: 42:27 I recently did a survey of crimson alumni, you know, these high school students around the world like yourself, who really ambitiously have gone to these top universities and asked kind of one of the most popular things you're studying at school. And, you know, math, computer science and economics were 123. on that list. As far as kind of useful courses, they were deep diving. And so I think your interest in economics, computer science differently, two of the most in demand skills in the world right now, I think the ability to kind of go from understanding a business environment to being able to kind of crunch statistics, analyze data, and sort of move between those things, is a, you know, increasingly more important skill sets, I think these are very smart choices. And then I guess, when you're choosing colleges, you know, you had a really unique and exciting choice between two of the world's great programs, one Princeton University, and often ranked by US News as number one college in America, or the Robertson scholarship, full ride to Duke University that, you know, combines an incredible leadership program, community service, great communities in exchange with UNC, you know, really funded by the legendary hedge fund manager, Julian Robinson, and also Crimson investor. So out of these two, you know, how did you make the call? Was it a clear choice for you? Or was it a difficult one? And, you know, what did you think through? Jia Dua: 43:38 At the time, it was a really difficult decision, and I remember being so torn, because I mean, it was, it was great, it was like two really, really positive outcomes that I really couldn't have anticipated having. But for my family, like, it was going to be a huge investment. If I was going to go to Princeton, even after financial aid, it would probably mean that for my younger brother, that was a lot of, you know, possibilities for his future, maybe that I was closing. For me, it really came down to like, when I looked into robots, and more, you know, they put a lot of emphasis on like building this community. And one big part of the scholarship is, you know, this is how they phrase it. This is not a reward for everything you've done so far, it's a chance for you to keep exploring, and that's a pressure I feel like a lot of people feel like they experience when they get to college. So for example, if I didn't have a scholarship funding me, I think I would have been a bit more conservative and the classes I took and the types of activities I invested my time in. And there's definitely this feeling of you know, go to Wall Street, go into consulting, do something that you know, is reliable and will pay well, whereas robertson is normally encouraged me to be more experimental, but has forced me to be more experimental. So in my first summer, I ended up volunteering teaching in like rural Mississippi. Which was like an insanely rewarding experience. But what I know I probably selfishly wouldn't have done if I wasn't having a fun that summer. But it's been one of the most like life changing experiences I've ever had. So I'm super grateful for it. In hindsight, I think as amazing as the schools are, really, if you're like a bright person, if you're a dedicated person, you can succeed anywhere. I'd say like, my biggest advice when choosing schools now that I've actually had time in the States, is actually different schools really have different personalities and cultures. And so instead of focusing so much on rankings, because once you're looking at, you know, the top 10, the top 20, like, they're all incredible, like, a rank of one or two difference really isn't the biggest deal, at least in my personal opinion. So pick a place where you feel like the people are people who are going to be your lifelong friends, and where you're going to be forced to keep growing in new ways. Because we all talk about, you know, like this intellectual curiosity and stuff and essays. And it means a lot when you actually live that out in your college experience, too. I think it makes it much more rewarding, Jamie Beaton: 46:09 Very well said. I think, kind of reflecting back on high school, if you go down this path, which have been on you know, you can have too many grades, because things have really looked gone really exceptionally from the VEX to other things you've been involved in, in the outcomes. But if I reflect back on, for example, my time in high school, I would have done things like you know, take computer science earlier, or, you know, learn Mandarin rather than French. I did love French. But I think, you know, times are changing. And you know, China's sort of really growing in significance around the world. What would you do? If you could rewind the clock, you will kind of 13 years old, again, hitting into high school, they're armed with a bit of foresight, you know, what, what changes would you have made, if any, to your kind of high school journey? Jia Dua: 46:46 This is such a tricky question. Because I am like, I'm very conscious of the fact that some of the decisions I made were ones that weren't necessarily like choices, you know, my school, for example, didn't really allow you to take a lot of classes accelerated. So that meant that I did calculus a year ahead, I did physics a year ahead. And I did programming early on. But apart from that, I wasn't really allowed to accelerate. And I knew that was a tremendous waste of time for being honest, I think I could have fit in a lot more math, and especially in the robotics for that would have helped me heaps, it was stuff I had to self learn in my own time. Computer Science, I'd say a lot of high schools don't have fantastic curriculums. And I wish I had known more about how to self learn that and where to look for those resources and where to start as well. Because it's like really overwhelming. There's what like 600 programming languages that you can start with. And it's so iterative, like one line in your code means you don't know what to do next. So I wish there was a bit more support and resourcing in that front. So I would have started those subjects earlier if I had a way to do so. And then the other thing I would have done is, I would have still sampled a whole bunch of things in terms of extracurriculars, but then I would have picked ones that I actually really liked, instead of doing like 2030 different things, and just kind of, I would say maybe wasting my time at points, because honestly, like, you don't need to have a trillion things on your college application. But you do need a few that you can show you really cared about and did something significant and meaningful with so have diversity within that. But don't feel this pressure to do everything and be everywhere. I'd say like, I was actually pretty good about having a balanced social life at high school, maybe not in my last year. But up till that point, I definitely make time for it. And I learned a lot from that too, especially when you get overseas, you know, being able to socialize and connect with people has been like, as powerful in my toolkit as any of the other things I've learned from, you know, academic classes and courses. Jamie Beaton: 48:52 Well, then I definitely think about my time in Business School, for example, and how valuable just building strong relationships has been with my classmates, you know, authentic bonds you bought in class can turn into incredible career opportunities, you know, investors, all kinds of things. So I feel like those students that have the single minded academic focus and probably come out of high school, a bit lacking on the social side, might get a good college outcome, but they've got a man rapidly relearn those skills or kind of pick them up in college, because it is pretty essential. And I think it's hard to really thrive in a US college, which is such a social thing. You know, without a bit of those, you know, skills you've developed. Jia Dua: 49:27 Yeah, absolutely. You did mention one thing that about was it like super academic kids coming out of high school like, that's one thing High School is good for and bad for at the same time, because you know, your pathway to success is so clearly defined for you. This is vague advice, but I wish I had been a bit more creative in the ways in which I define success for myself, and let myself be a bit more experimental in that sense. Yet, don't be afraid to try different pathways. Not everything has to be, you know, superficial Traditional, Jamie Beaton: 50:00 I guess we're coming to the end of our discussions, Jia, it's been a real blast. Any final words you would leave for our ambitious listeners around the world? Jia Dua: 50:08 Well, I'd say thank you so much for listening. If you got this far, that's you, you deserve an award already. But especially if there's any girls listening, and our podcast is not nearly enough time to discuss, like, what this journey like through robotics and through stem was like for me, but believe me that there have been thousands of moments of, you know, lacking self confidence, feeling embarrassed, having regrets feeling like an imposter. Don't let any of that get to you. And same for boys or anything in between whoever's listening, it's all good to start new things where you suck at first, if I had turned away from robotics, because I sucked when I began, we'd never be having this conversation, because really, I was the dumbest person in the room at that point. But you know, it took a lot of hard work, and we managed to change that. So you really are capable of doing whatever you want. In terms of college applications. I know it seems like college is like the biggest thing in your whole life and getting into your dream school is like the biggest thing. You know your dream, do things that actually make you happy though, and I promise you'll get somewhere that you will be proud of Jamie Beaton: 51:13 Powerful words. Thank you very much Jia.

Ep #5 Winning the Intel Science and Engineering Fair

🗓 NOV 7, 2020

See transcript

Outro: 0:00 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and in this episode, I chat with Krithik Ramesh. Krithik is 17 years old and won the 2019 Intel Science and Engineering Fair. Krithik chats to us about his award winning amazing project and he's not for profit based in India. He also shares these tips for high schoolers looking to compete in prestigious science competitions. Let's chat with Krithik Ramesh. Krithik, welcome to the show and it's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself. Krithik: 0:51 So my name is Krithik Ramesh. I was the winner of the Intel International Science and Engineering fair in 2019. I'm the last Gordon E. Moore winner because Intel is no longer sponsoring the International Science Fair. For my project, I developed the world's most accurate spinal navigation system, using machine learning and augmented reality. I've lived pretty much my entire life in Denver, Colorado. And now I recently moved out to San Francisco to work at a startup. Podcast Host: 1:17 We'll definitely get into the details of the project soon. But can you give us some background on what the Intel Science and Engineering Fair is exactly? Krithik: 1:26 So um, the best way I like to describe Intel is it's like a Drake concert for nerds. And it's it's this really fun engaging environment. And it's also a competition. So essentially, Intel isef is an International Science and Engineering fair competition for runs over like 80 different countries, regions and territories. And people from all over compete at something called an Intel affiliated fair. So based off of your region, location, etc. Your barrier of entry would either be like a regional fair, a state fair if you're in the US, etc. And then for countries outside because of population, or whatever they've set up, it'll be like a National Fair, or some sort of regional regional standards. And if you win, at that selected fair or respective fair, you end up qualifying for ISEF. And of those 1800 ish kids that are lucky enough and privileged enough to be able to fly out, it's all expense paid, and everything is pretty much taken care of for you. And then you spend a week, sort of one engaging with other people. And it's sort of an experience, and that's sort of how I surf and society, for Science in the Public markets is that it's like a week full of experiences for you to find like minded researchers and look at like vocational opportunities that exist. And you spend the better part of that week meeting with fellow peers on Nobel laureates, highly successful entrepreneurs, etc. And then you have one day of judging, and as an employee, this is like 12 hours of back to back judging where you have an allocated time slot with different judges that you'll get a sheet with on the day of and as a result of that. You talk to different individuals in your profession, as you choose different categories. There's a total of 22 different categories. So anywhere between biomedical engineering, environmental sciences, behavioral and like the list just goes on and on. And then after that determination, you have one day of special awards, and then one day of grant awards. And that's when you figure out what you won or if you've won. Podcast Host: 3:30 So what was the process that you had to go through to actually come out as the winner of the 2019 science and engineering fair? Krithik: 3:37 Good questions. So I'm just sort of preface this a little bit. I remember when I was in middle school, my dad turned on CBS This Morning, like 60 minutes, and it was coming over. It was an interview series on Jack Andraka. And he was the winner. He was the Gordon one of the earlier Gordon winners. And I'd never necessarily put together that that was the you know, science fair, or anything else. It was just like a like a series that I saw. And I remember this particular moment of like confetti falling on him. And that moment in and of itself was like something I had, I just wanted and I never connected the dots. And then when I won it was this thing that went full circle was like, wow, like I've had the privilege of winning this now. And so, to sort of backpedal and talk about the actual processes, essentially, you bring your presentation with you. So your supplementary material, your boards, your any like visual instruments that you have that's been approved by the SEC, you have one day or pretty much like two days to set up everything. All of it gets checked by scientific review committee and then the institutional review boards for safety, making sure that your board doesn't have like knives sticking out of a head or something like crazy like that. So once everything is you know, within order, then you sort of transition into dodging and dodging for me I actually thought didn't go as well as the year before that. And it's like you meet with people that are very well versed in your field, but they have Like a PhD have worked in industry for X amount of years, I just have strong technical backgrounds. And they have a relatively stringent rubric that they they abide by, that goes over creativity, your scientific testing processes, your presentation, and an amelioration of different factors. And ultimately, they'll ask you questions regarding your project, you give them a demonstration. And then that's sort of the end end of it. And you do that multiple times throughout the day. And I think one of the most important parts that is overlooked in research is that your obligation as a researcher is twofold. The first is obviously like, you know, conducting your research, like doing the part, it's in the name. The second part is being an effective communicator of science, and a lot of people have for granted. But it's like, if you were, if you were super, super smart, and like you came up with this crazy idea, but no one understood what's going on, it's kind of difficult for for people to understand what's going on, right? So ISEF is like a really good example of being able to convey really complicated material in a really simple way. Podcast Host: 6:01 So is that what you've been judged on? Or is it a combination of different things? Krithik: 6:05 Oh, yeah. So SMC, I would say that that's more of like a characteristic of like winning, winning, like winning projects, or winning individuals, that have a very good way of explaining non trivial concepts in a very easy and approachable manner. Because you're catering to audiences with one a technical background, but it may not necessarily overlap with your project. So being able to bridge the gap between those two is probably what leads to a very strong project. Podcast Host: 6:31 Let's wind back the clock a little bit from the actual, you know, judging of the Intel Science and Engineering Fair. And I read that in terms of coming up with this idea. It had something to do with dancing and virtual reality technology. And I think that's really fascinating, like how ideas come about. And I think one of the first things that you probably need to be is problem aware, right? Like, you have to know that this is an issue in spinal surgery, and then you have to see the potential of a solution in something. So can you take us through how you put those two pieces together? And I guess, you know, the idea that ended up addressing that problem? Oh, for sure. Krithik: 7:07 Okay. So, um, let's start with this. When we, when we usually we usually say that art imitates life, right? Like, it's, it's a, it's a representation of a real world. As a scientist, we're in like. or like a researcher in general, you're in this incredibly privileged position, that you get to see parallels and connections that wouldn't have otherwise existed unless you quantifiably looked at them. So from a researchers perspective, life imitates art. So if we start with this premise, and we sort of start with this idea that like, everything is connected. So I was watching Grey's Anatomy, and it's like, it was like, one of my favorite TV shows at the time, and still is, Derek Shepherd is like, operating on on one of his lab tests, and he has this really complicated spinal tumor. And one of the things he talks about is like, visualization of this anatomy is really difficult. Because what we're currently using is like a lifetime X ray. And like, it was sort of sitting in the back of my mind, like, hey, like, if we are working in arguably one of the most complicated parts of your body, why are we using something with arguably the least amount of visual accuracy. It's like, if you were trying, if it's like if a nature photographer was using, like a Nokia cell phone to take a camera, right? Like, it's just this, this doesn't make sense. And so that was something that was running in the back of my mind. And then the next thing was like I was playing Just Dance, and I wasn't particularly good at it. So instead of trying to get better at dancing, I sort of took liberty of figuring out how the motion capture system worked to sort of get better at it. So call it cheating, or whatever you may, but it worked. And the what the connection that I made there, where I saw the parallels was that motion tracking that we're doing for the body with Just Dance, is something that we could apply to spinal reconstruction surgeries to predict spinal behavior. So it's obviously when we're doing the dancing thing. It's predicting biomechanics, and all of spinal reconstruction surgery is heavily predicated on understanding the movement of vertebral bodies, as screws are being placed. So when when you sort of put those two things together, it really like it really clicked for me. And this is something that I say a lot is that when you go to ISEF, you'll see these projects and like my present party included, the technical names or projects are, are very esoteric, they have a lot of words that are very intimidating. And you're like, I have no idea what this is saying. I'm gonna have to Google like half of it, if not all of it. Like do you understand like the adjectives in between like the and and you're like, great, I don't know what like the the cytokine v complexes or whatever. But the thing is, they can inspiration for this product can come from anywhere. And that's what I've been like focusing pretty heavily on is that like, it doesn't have to come like most ideas don't stem from a lab. It's sitting outside are like this, this very nonchalant, super casual way of coming about these ideas. It's testing them in a rigorous environment that happens in a lab. The idea in and of itself doesn't. Podcast Host: 9:59 So Grey's Anatomy and Just Dance was really it for you? Krithik: 10:03 Yeah. So for me, it was yeah, it was a TV show that's about medicine. It's a soap opera and a dancing video game. Podcast Host: 10:09 That's amazing. I mean, it seems like for me, that is a big leap to take. And I think some students and listeners will be saying, Well, how do you get a spinal surgery from just dance and Grey's Anatomy? Right. So obviously, it's about you and how your brain works. So can you talk us through I guess, how you have been more prepared to notice that moment in time where you can put those two pieces of information together? Like Are there any mentors in your life or previous experiences that you had? Where you can see these two opportunities, put two and two together and end up winning the science and engineering fair? Krithik: 10:45 That's a great question. So you know, how I mentioned like, life imitates art. So a lot of the research that I did before this was in fluid dynamics and aerospace, like aeronautical engineering. So complete departure from this right, and like I used to do, and then computer science was somewhere in between these two things. So think about it this way, the what I worked on in computational fluid dynamics is like, it's called fluid structure interaction. So thinking about how these really complicated airplane wings, flutter and behave under under different kinds of stresses. And as you can see, like one spine, you also have to significantly consider the biomechanics or structural stresses, etc. So there was a lot of tangential relations that you could put together there. So I think for me, the biggest thing that I've been fortunate enough was that having a strong technical background in something that you're interested in, will serve you really well. And whether that's in mathematics, or, or literature, or anything in between it, it serves its purpose. So let me let me give an example. I like to stop and smell the roses, but also analyze the color saturation, like being able to look at look at something and then take it at face value, but then also understand the non trivial components of it is what makes a good researcher and like, it's what makes people that when science fairs, it's the ability to look at something, be interested in it, and then pursue it in a way that you have a strong foundational understanding of what's going on. Because, like anything in research, is the intersection of what we already know, and what you can do to move it forward. And the best way to do that is to learn as much as you can, in a technical manner. Podcast Host: 12:31 I completely appreciate that. And I think that's an amazing way to go about solving problems and thinking about research. But I know a lot of students would probably stop themselves from having a go at these things, thinking that I'm only a student, I'm not a researcher. In that sense, what did you do it to make that mental leap from being a student to being a researcher? Krithik: 12:53 Oh, definitely. So like, ageism is such an issue. Like it's been a very prevalent issue in academia for quite some time. But the privilege of I guess, being in 2020, despite everything going on, is that like, we're seeing a culture shift of younger people getting into big reputational like reputation labs and being able to do like legitimate research. Like I remember, this, all of this, all of my research career started in seventh grade, I really like the triple seven Max, Max eight came out. So essentially what it was is like, they It was a new aircraft with a split wingtip. So how to bottom part, one to top part, and in 10th grade, he was like, I might need to understand how that works, tramped over everything. So I built this out of foam. And then I reached out to every single University with a wind tunnel within 100 miles of me and Colorado. And all of them said, No. So every single one, so I ended up building my own wind tunnel to go test it. And so what I recognized was that because of how much resources like how many resources are available right now, because of the internet, a lot of education has been democratized, it means that like things that used to be hidden behind like paywalls, or, like, expensive college degree is very accessible to us now, and fine. Even teachers, or someone with a little bit of background can serve a lot in getting you to be able to do research, and it seems daunting, being like cold calling and doing all of that stuff. But at the bottom of every Research Initiative is like why do you want to know it? And like I refer like something I try to live by is like trying to be this engineer with a heart of gold. And essentially what that means is your compassion is the the only thing rivaling your compassion is your need to understand how things work. And for me, that meant like trying to figure out how Spanner reconstructions worked using using machine learning. And the whole thing is like Think of it this way, like if you cold I had to cold call like maybe 40 neurosurgeons before one of them responded to validate my research. And the thing is, if you're under 39th call, it's very easy to say that you want to quit. But then it was all for nothing. Making that extra call was the thing that made it through. And all it takes is just one person to say, yes, one person. And a lot of the previous winners that have one I said before, if you ask them about their trials and tribulations, so all say, the amount of adversity they face until one person was willing to give them a hand. So it seems very daunting and like, chances are, you will get rejected outright by a lot of people. But the sort of journey of finding one person willing to help you is one worth traveling. Podcast Host: 15:40 Yeah, it's interesting that you see yourself being able to achieve so much more at school, whereas I speak to a lot of students, and a lot of them say that they don't have time, or that they think that it's not going to contribute to their overall score. Oh, definitely what they're at school to do, which is to get a good school, go to university, etc. So and so they kind of think, well, if I'm going to do it, I'll do it light up. You know, I'll do it after I finished school. So I focus on my academics now. And then all that research and all that kind of thing is more like a university, or even, you know, 10 years down the track type of thing that they might look at. And I know you're a pretty busy guy balancing school and wind tunnels and calling 40 surgeons. How did you all make that happen whilst at school? How did you really balance it all? Krithik: 16:24 Good question. So I guess a little bit of perspective, as I took nine classes, all honors, and AP, every like every single year, I was varsity swim. I was president of tech club, I made debate nationals, I was a debate Captain Tournament of Champions. Quite a few other things. But the one thing that like kept me motivated and like legitimately made me interested in what I was doing, is being able to understand that, like research and the extracurriculars that you do is a natural extension of whatever you were doing in class anyways. So like, it's a more applied version, right? So let's just say you are in AP Lang, for us listeners, or I guess it's technically an international class. If you're in AP, English language, a lot of the rhetorical analysis, the critical thinking that's required is the same things that I use in debate like consistently, and frequently, the ideation, the the narrative, the development of strong analyses, all of those things were a natural extension. And if anything, it made me stronger in school. And the same thing applied to research is like applying these STEM concepts and scientific processes and methodologies that we learned through classes like AP, bio, and AP Chem, are things that easily translate into the real world. So for people that see it as like, two completely different entities, changing that perspective, to understand that anything you learn in class is something that is generally applicable to the real world helps a lot with context and how you manage your time. Podcast Host: 17:56 Yeah, absolutely. So you didn't feel like you were sacrificing anything to pursue these extracurriculars. I mean, obviously, there have been some kind of sacrifice, whether that be in your homework, or in your study time, or whatever it might have been. And I'm sure there's some students thinking, how does this guy find the time to do all this stuff? Is it making sure that when you come home, that you're just applying yourself and thinking about these extracurriculars? You know, straight off the bat? Krithik: 18:20 Uh, yeah, I mean, there was definitely a consistent lack of sleep and like, I would never promote that. But that was from my, sort of, if we're using me as like a as a as a martyr for where you can improve. Like, time management is something I struggled with a lot. But what I recognized was that understanding how to very keenly know your schedule, where you know, your downtimes you know, how much energy you're gonna have to have after XYZ, or anything else helps a lot. And the other thing is also, like waking up with a determination of what you want to accomplish, helps a lot with your motivation for the rest of the day. So obviously, no one goes about it with like, I'm gonna solve spinal reconstruction surgeries. And then like, it's like, endless boundless excitement for the rest of like, you know, the next six months that you work on a project, it's more like, I'm waking up with the intention of being the best version of myself. So like, if it was swimming, then I'd be like, I want to set a new PR for my swim, family debate tournament, I want to be like, I want to go undefeated, or I want to win, like most outstanding speaker. And that sort of mentality definitely motivated me enough where like, it was like, if I wanted to do other things, I'd be like, what is the end goal for me? It's being the best at XYZ field. And what what is that necessarily, like? What does that necessitate? And for me, maybe that was studying more, or if it was like compromising certain grades or like certain, not the highest standards that I could keep, but something that I was happy with, but also allowed me to pursue things that I legitimately acquired. Podcast Host: 19:51 Yeah, I mean, I guess that's a good way of thinking about it. And that's a really strong clarity. And I think that's a struggle for a lot of students because often students Just eyeing off that score they want. And it's not such a great goal to have. Yeah, it can be debilitating. And also the test can come along. And you might be sick that day, or there might be a few questions that you didn't exactly pay for. And all of a sudden, that goal of getting the great score is kind of out of the window. But it seems that you had like a little bit more of a sense of purpose and clarity as to why you're doing things, what you were hoping to achieve, and how it would impact in other areas of your life as well. Krithik: 20:28 So that's the thing, right? So it's a little, it's a little interesting that you bring that up, because I, I sort of say this sort of as a joke and sort of not where I'm like, my dream job is to be a destination wedding planner. So like, I'm very, I've dedicated my whole life to stem i've i've done non stem, I've run the gamut of like things that I've really been interested in. But what I recognize is, you may not necessarily know what you want. But working in a way that like, genuinely prepares you to try everything in like a mindset manner is really useful. So like, I've realized, like maybe some things aren't for me, like I thought it'd be an excellent fashion Easter, but like, obviously, that didn't work for me. But the experience in and of itself is good. So like trial, and error is not a bad thing. So my biggest phrases, make as many mistakes as possible, so that you prevent the big ones. Like that's all of like machine learning in general, and pretty much anything else is that we sort of like chastise this ability to make mistakes, as if like it's completely frowned upon. But the way that I see it is like if you're willing to make mistakes, it means that you learn one you learn more from them. And then to making these little mistakes along the way allows you to course correct so that you don't make like a large or erroneous action. Podcast Host: 21:41 I think a lot of students just check themselves on autopilot as they go through school. And they just don't really question why they were involved in this club or why they were involved in this team, that just thinking Well, no, the school won't steer me wrong. I'll be part of these things. And I kind of enjoy it. I may as well keep doing it. But it sounds like you were going through different things and having different experiences, and really questioning why am I here? What do I want to achieve? What am I trying to get out of this? How's it going to help me in other areas of my life and that hope to get you out of bed in the morning and have more clarity about what you wanted to do outside of school? Is that fair to say? Krithik: 22:17 Definitely. Yeah, like high school is a place where like, it seems like the stakes are really high. And to some extent they are but it's also like a place where there's enough forgiveness to learn. And what a mind that's what you're there to do, right? So being able to look at an environment and say this is either working or isn't or really ask yourself with deep introspection, like, does this legitimately make me happy? Or am I here for resume padding? Or like, Am I here because my friends are here or like, what truly makes you happy is something that like it took me a lot of time. I was in like maybe seven clubs freshman year. And like, obviously, I didn't like all of them. And it took me quite a bit of time to figure out which ones I did like and which ones I didn't. But once I knew that, like swimming, computer science and debate where my things I could wholeheartedly invest myself in it without having regrets. Podcast Host: 23:07 Yeah, I think that's such an important lesson, particularly for all the student listeners, because I was one of those students, I went through school and basically did anything and everything under the sun. And a lot of the time I didn't really clearly think about why I was doing them. And looking back, I wish someone had sat me down and said, Hey, you know, you're spending all this time in three or four different orchestras or your sporting teams? And how about you do something that might be your own passion, which at the time was really the environment. But I never really felt like I had the time because I was always rushing off to another activity. So having that deep introspection, as he said, I definitely recommend that for all students to really have that moment and say, what is it that I really want to do? And who knows, you could end up coming up with great ideas that go on to win science fairs to just on the Intel side of things, what made you want to compete in it, because you could have just done the research and been like, Oh, that's interesting, and hopefully shared it in a few different places. But there must have been something with someone who said, 'Hey, you should go to Intel this looks pretty cool.' Krithik: 24:07 So I've been competing in sciences for quite some time. So I sort of had this like constant exposure to Broadcom, ISEF, STS, Davidson, etc. So from like a very objective perspective, sure, I was cultivating an environment that like sort of, you know, was conducive to competing in science fairs. But if we take a step back, ISEF specifically, um, I remember watching a 2017 ISEF highlights video. And it was particularly interesting to me because I got to see they rent it out. Disneyland and that was that was a big selling point. I'll be honest, it's pretty cool because every single year whether it's in Pittsburgh or Phoenix or Anaheim, they always end up like renting a fun place where like they have a mixer they have a baseball the rent on a baseball game for you, which is like nuts. The food is free. It's incredible. So that was a like, for freshman year Krithik, very shallow, also still very shallow in that regard of free free food and fun games and activities that's paid for. I was like, Yeah, that's great. That's, that's ideal. But something that probably is more realistic is that like, I'm a very community driven individual. So like, for me, people matter more than anything. So if I'm around the right people, it feels really good. And as a byproduct of that, like going to isef was one of the first times that I had the ability to meet with other people that were so in tune with, like my goals, or like, understood exactly what the trials and tribulations of a research kid were. It helped me a lot in finding my clarity. And watching those videos, and then being able to go was like an absolutely surreal experience, which is arguably the reason why I got motivated to try over and over again, like every single year that I competed, and ISEF is arguably one of the most life changing experiences I had throughout high school for that reason is that the people that you meet are phenomenal. And revolutes, that lens is something that like I would I would argue is one of the most like formative weeks of my of my high school tenure. Podcast Host: 26:13 Yeah, absolutely. Just getting around people that are like minded and thinking outside of the box is so important. Which leads me to my next question. You know, they say you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with, and who are some of those people that you spend the most time with, I guess, you know, that has elevated you or you have elevated them to be the best versions of themselves. Krithik: 26:36 For sure. So let's let's sort of break this down into a couple of things. So if I had to go with mentors, I'd say Thomas Letts, Mr. Letts, he was sort of my flight instructor. And he helped me a lot with the my initial, you know, footings with research. And he was the first person that legitimately made me feel like I can make an impact in research, despite my age, or like I could legitimately become someone that that could make foundational changes and in whatever field that I choose to pursue. So that one that I owe a lot to Mr. Letts. The next person, I would say are, if I had to choose two teachers, it would be miss when my computer science teacher, because a lot of the work that I do now is foundational to computer science, machine learning, etc. And I really got my footing in everything that I learned from from her. And she's one of the most, she also taught me how to be compassionate. And that's something I value a lot. And that's sort of like her as an individual is what sort of taught me the engineers at the heart of gold. And same thing with my math teacher, Mrs. Gagaline. And she she was really foundational in that aspect as well. And she she helped me with learning that I too, have limitations and that I cannot solve everything, but that's okay. And learning that where you find your strengths is for me, it was in helping other people, whether that was through my research or volunteer projects, etc, that I dedicated my time towards helping others and that that's that was the bottom line, whether or not I could do everything was secondary. And then in terms of friends, Grant Kelly is someone that I respect a lot, he's just like someone from high school that like he's, he's one of the very few people that can make me laugh, because I didn't he was outside sounding too boastful, myself, like a relatively funny person, like in social settings. So like, if you can make me laugh, I have a lot of respect for that. And like she, he's just one of those people that like, he has this knack for making me laugh. Very hard. And like, I really appreciate that because it shows you that being making mistakes and laughing at yourself, and others, it's okay, as long as it's in good nature. And then Ana Maria, someone that's the last one, probably the five are arguably one of the most important is she, she's definitely someone that's that's taught me a lot about being a good person. And I think we take that for granted a lot, especially in research and like in a very competitive environment. We forget that, as accomplished as she is, she's incredibly grounded, and she's one of the most compassionate people I've ever seen. So being able to sacrifice some of your own personal achievements for collective good, is something that she's taught me. And, of course, my parents who've endlessly helped me throughout all the endeavors. Podcast Host: 29:19 I was going to ask when the parents were going to come into the list, but I guess it's pretty obvious that they're going to be a big part of your life. But I'd love for you to just to explain a little bit more about the role your parents play, or have played in your life today. Instead, a lot of students have that battle of they would love to pursue other interests, but they are fearful that it might take away from focusing on the academics at school, which at the end of the day feels like the priority of your school life. So when you're investing all this time and calling surgeons and building wind tunnels and competing in science fairs, where your parents ever like, Hey, have you done your study or anything like that? Or were they just you know that they see the value in what you were Doing and they just let you do it. Krithik: 30:01 Um, good question. Definitely there was, initially, there was a lot of like miscommunication between me and my parents about like, exactly what was going on, like, why was I always outside like doing XYZ and like, not necessarily inside working on stuff, even if I was finishing them in a timely manner. But, you know, as my relationship with my parents really sort of deepened later on into high school, it became apparent to them, like, why I was doing what I was doing, and they became incredibly supportive. It's difficult for parents, especially like my parents came from India. So like, the concept of extracurriculars is rather foreign to them. Oh, making that transition, like, you know, raising me in like a, like an in an American educational environment that like something that's so foreign to them, it was definitely a little bit of a transition. But once they sort of saw what I was able to do, and like the real benefits that I was procuring from them, and the the knowledge, the technical abilities, and how it sort of played into my academics naturally anyways, they were they were much more for it. And I guess $75,000 didn't hurt either. Podcast Host: 31:04 No, it certainly doesn't hurt and, you know, supportive parents, I think is so key, and particularly around the barrier of extracurriculars, because I think a lot of parents can get a bit, Oh, geez, my child has taken a lot of time away from school. And they're doing a lot of things other than their homework. And other parents are telling me that their child is doing four to five hours of homework a night, and my child is spending a bit of time on this project that they're really passionate about. And it can make parents a little bit nervous. So did you ever have like a sit down conversation with your parents? Or was it more that they kind of saw what you were doing and kind of got a sense of it through osmosis and then they really understood more about what you were trying to achieve? Krithik: 31:43 Definitely the latter, I really had to have that like formal conversation, my parents was like, hey, like, this is the path I've chosen, it was more of like, them sort of like watching and observing what was going on. And they realized that I was working on stuff that had real world implications, and like coming from parents that, you know, both worked in and around computers, it was sort of a little bit of a departure for them to see me work in engineering or medicine or not necessarily computer science. But once they saw, like, one that it really helped me become a more well rounded, well versed person. And like when I say well, well rounded, I mean, like, someone that has a real world understanding of pragmatism that exist, like, when you're sort of in high school and college, you can, it's very easy to, to be sheltered by just your coursework. But step outside of that realm, and really seeing what's going on, it helped them as much as it helped me. And it also work in the sense that like, my nonprofit is predicated a lot of on my engineering abilities, and like what I noticed in the real world, so being able to go back to a community that my parents came from in rural India was was something that, you know, was very pleasing to them. And also, like, made them very proud. Podcast Host: 32:58 Can you talk a little bit more about the not for profit, because I've heard about it, but our listeners most likely haven't come across it. And I know it does some fantastic work in rural India. So yeah, if you just discuss how that came about, and how it continues to date, that would be fantastic. Krithik: 33:12 Yeah, sure. So it's a mix between like my like, my debate abilities and engineering. But so there was this resolution in debate, he was like, developed countries are to help developing countries. And it seems like pretty immediate, like, yeah, like duh, like, countries that are not as well off should be helping countries that should be held by or aided by countries that are well off. But what we sort of started realizing was that the aid that we were providing, or at least the manner in which we were providing it made these countries more dependent on us, which is sort of like counterintuitive rights, like you like the help we were help giving them medicine made them really dependent. So my whole thing was, what if we were able to create sustainable infrastructure that was like a one time investment that fundamentally helped these countries long term. So my nonprofit was sort of predicated on this premise of helping rural India where like my grandfather and my father from, and the way that I went about this was providing solar panels to the schools. So that one, it was a one time investment. It provided jobs by bolstering the economy, like micro economy, I guess, of providing jobs, these individuals and also sustainable energy that like made them grid independent. So now we're providing them with renewable energy. And it allows them to have more consistent electricity access, and reallocate resources towards hygiene products for women or like renovating bathrooms providing better stationary equipment, things that could have been a one time investment that we could have provided, it's now something that they can provide for themselves. So it's something that's really close to me and something that wouldn't have spurred unless I pursued my extracurriculars as much as I pursued my academics. Podcast Host: 34:55 Amazing. Yeah, it sounds like an incredible project. And I know that there's people out there who would listen to that. And say how does that even get started? I mean, you went from a debate topic to providing solar panels for schools in rural India. I mean, there's a lot of things that happen in between their, their timeline, like, was it debate topic one week and solar panels the next? Or was it over the space of a couple of months? Right, right. Krithik: 35:17 Good question. So essentially, the way that it worked was like I was thinking about what is the most effective way that I can help these individuals. I was explaining this to my dad. And I was telling them about the debate thing. And he was like, yeah, this seems to be a really prevalent issue, especially in rural parts of India, because if you don't give them access to things you can expect them to develop as a country. And it starts with very grassroots movements. So then I was thinking about, like, what would be my own individual impact. So from an engineering perspective, I was like, everything that we produce has like a lifespan. And then ultimately, it's either by and large, the products that we end up providing are disposable, and they make you reliant on them. And then you can never get them or manufacture them yourself. So the only thing that like really came to mind that seemed relatively approachable, was providing renewable energy sources. And because there were like solar panels seemed like a very interesting way of getting into it is like solar panels have become much cheaper over the years, and the return on investment is insanely high. So sort of, you know, connecting the dots there a little bit with my, for my engineering understanding of like how solar panel technologies are. And then looking at the debate side of like the pragmatism that exist with developmental aid. I put sort of two and two together and then worked on reaching out to local grocery stores, getting a GoFundMe page up starting fundraisers, doing like boosters, all of these different things to get portions from like Indian grocery stores, restaurants, etc. And then I was able to raise enough money, that I was able to pursue this project, and then provide solar panels within like, roughly six months. Podcast Host: 36:52 Amazing. Yeah, that's the kind of grassroots movement that you really need. Reaching out to community GoFundMe pages, that's the kind of thing that turns an idea into reality. I think a lot of people, particularly students don't necessarily realize the best time to do these kinds of amazing things is when you're a student. And it's when you've got that free time, you know, you don't have to pay off a mortgage for a house. And it really gives you that flexibility to pursue what you want to pursue. So it can be the best time to do these amazing things and turn these ideas into reality. Oh, definitely. Krithik: 37:25 I think I said this on NPR. And I gave him something that like a lot of people have asked me about, and I think is really important is that we see age as like, we tell elderly people or like play, you know, people like better aging, that age is just a number. And use that as like a way to like decrease the importance of age for people that are older. And I think the same can be applied to people that are younger is that age is just a number and, and being able to get past like the the cognitive bias that we are too young to make any sort of significant change helped me a lot. Because understanding that change can come from anywhere, and you see like incredible people all around the world that are making such an impact at such a young age. If you look at Malala, she did all that she won her Nobel Prize when she was a teenager. And it's incredible. And like the amount of work that she's done to sort of democratize learning for women, and like moving up in the social hierarchy. It's incredible. And you see people like those all around the world, making such a, like a fundamental change and knowing that like you can do that. And maybe it's not at that scale. But even making like a change in the microcosm of your own community is still changed. The net benefit is there. Podcast Host: 38:40 Yeah, yeah, hundred percent. I think students just need to realize that's possible for them. Yeah. And I think that you might look at someone like Malala and say, Well, you know, she fought through a lot of different devotees. But that doesn't mean that, you know, there's a student living in the Safe Streets of suburbia, that they can't do the same, they can still go out and make a positive impact even on their immediate community. Sometimes I say to students, find something that annoys you and go out and make a change to that. Right. And I think Krithik: 39:09 the the beautiful part of all of this activism that's been going on recently is how much we've been able to show that being young has has made a significant difference, the amount that we were able to, to sort of raise awareness and have a cultural change about the Black Lives Matter movement. And in previous attempts, like between Eric Garner, all of these other individuals, we saw so much activism happening, but not from younger demographics. This is the first time that we really saw a movement towards public health crises, trying to really make a stance for racial and justices and trying to ameliorate these situations. And a lot of this is being propelled by by people that are like 16, 18, 20. And it's really humbling to know that there's a community of people that are working With you, and that you can have a lot of references just by talking to your friend at this point, I completely agree. And I see people like Greta thunberg, and a couple of other people as well, we're just this voice of the youth writer was having this fantastic idea of protesting each Friday missing school. And then it snowballed. And now she's become this voice for a generation asking for change, she took like a, like a sail like a, an energy, like it didn't, it's literally a wind sail from Europe to get to the US instead of flying. It's so it's so motivating. And that's the thing, right? So like, sort of bringing it back to the eyes of a little bit here. Like the people that you meet at ISEF are exactly with that kind of mentality, that fundamental need to make a change, or a lasting impression is what drives all of us. And that's the one thing that you'll notice about people that win is that winning is sort of a secondary impact. It's a it's a byproduct of a mindset that you you cultivated over the time that you were doing research or whatever product that you have chosen. And keeping that in mind that staying grounded in what you're pursuing, will help you get farther because I didn't have this amount of success. When I first tried freshman year, I didn't get an ISEF. But for me, what I recognized was that instead of trying to play this game of, of who has a bigger paper, or who has more data, it was create a strong narrative, build a right idea, and suddenly you're passionate about and talk about it genuinely and authentically. And that seemed to serve me a lot better. And that's what serves all of these, like, fundamentally, really influential young people like Gitanjali Rao and everyone in between so well. Podcast Host: 41:37 Is there any other advice you would give to passionate scientists who would really love to try and do something like you've done, Krithik: 41:43 I would say, my biggest thing that I've told a lot of kids is be playful. And, and playful, meaning that like approaching science fair as a competition, like, is probably the worst way to go about it. And it sounds counterintuitive, but it'll make a lot of sense when you're actually competing is that thinking of it as like a conversation with with some really intelligent peers is the best way for you to figure out if you've done the right project. If you're able to talk with someone intelligently about your project, in a in a very like in like a hypothetical coffee coffee place, then you've done it correctly, you have a start or finish and you have data, you have a narrative that speaks to your project. The background information is the technical details that you've amassed over reading, like hundreds of papers, literature reviews that you've done, the trials and tribulations of story that the meat of your stories, all the experimentation that you did, and bringing it all together. And sort of like the the day to day crescendo, if you will is is your results and discussion. And thinking of what you're building with research and for ISEF specifically, is a story. It's a story of your research. And I think starting with that premise will help a lot because everyone's heard a story about Joseph Campbell's here with 1000 faces. We know what the story archetype is. We've done it so many times documenting it in a quantitative way that makes it research. Exactly, exactly. It's about the journey, not the destination, or I guess it's a little cliche, but something along those lines. Yeah. Publishing, if you've ever read like pieces out of nature or sell, you'll notice that they like they explicitly, they spend so much of their of those articles talking about the background. And to give you context for how significant of an issue this is where, like how, why this is significant. And like that's the that's the same principles that you'll get like, if you read, if you read Harry Potter, and then you read a like a paper from Sel, you'll notice that there's actually a lot of similarities in the way that they present themselves. And you won't necessarily notice them unless you take a closer look. But it's there. And you'll you'll definitely notice it. Podcast Host: 43:56 I'd love to know what's next for you. Yeah, they're in California working on a start up, you've just won the Intel science and engineering fair, it must feel like the world is at your fate. What do you say is been your priorities over the next year or two? Do you want to go to university? And if so, is there any university in mind? Krithik: 44:13 Yeah, so as of right now, my my first priority is probably launching our app. So once that happens, I think a lot of my, you know, work will subside. My ideal profession, apart from being a wedding planner is being a flight surgeon. So that has a very strict academic hierarchy. So as a byproduct of that, I'm probably applying to universities very soon. And looking at Harvard as my top choice as of right now. So Cambridge is definitely my, my favorite. And that's that's sort of where things stand. The rest is still to be uncovered. And that's I guess that's sort of the fun in it. Podcast Host: 44:51 Yeah, absolutely. And when you say Cambridge, you mean Cambridge, Massachusetts, right? Yes, yes. Cambridge avidin. MIT. Yeah. Okay, right, yeah, that's a fantastic goal. And I'm sure you'll apply in terms of, you know, creating that story, right? That's what it's all about when putting together a strong University application, the admission officers, they really want to know who you are and not just what your scores are and that type of thing. Krithik: 45:12 Oh, definitely, exactly. It's it's that they try to build, like the community that I've met at all of these, like procedures, universities, or like just any university in general is that, like, everyone brings something to the table that you otherwise wouldn't have gotten, like, the sum of the parts is greater than each individual component. And, like keeping that in mind when like when you work in groups in general, or like when applying to colleges, like acknowledging that you have something to bring the table definitely helps a lot. And, and in the case that it doesn't work out, it just means that maybe the unit like the university wasn't a good fit for you, and just move taking that in stride. Podcast Host: 45:47 Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I just need to clarify quickly, what exactly does a flight surgeon do? Krithik: 45:52 Yeah, good question. So our flight, specifically what I want to be as a doctor for the International Space Station, so it's a very prestigious job. It requires a lot of academic training, I specifically want to work in something called pediatric cardiology and cardiology in general. And being a flight surgeon is something that like really excites me because I like aviation. And I also like medicine. So it seemed like a good intersection of the two. Podcast Host: 46:16 I mean, that could make a pretty cool destination wedding, the International Space Station is a fantastic ceremony. But yeah, it sounds like you're on, you know, a fantastic trajectory. And wherever you end up, I'm sure it will be a fantastic experience, not just for you, for the people around you, who are influenced by your clarity and your ideas. And I hope the listeners who are tuned in today, really get that sense of not just who you are, and your advice and experience. So I hope you listeners are taking some things away today that you can apply in your own endeavors and your own projects to make sure that you're making the most of high school. Krithik: 46:52 Yeah, that's so incredible. Well, I really hope that I made research just a little bit more approachable. And like, best of luck to anyone listening. Podcast Host: 47:01 Thank you so much for your time critique. It's been fantastic to chat. And is there any website or place that students should go if they want to follow along your story a little bit more? Yeah, so um, my website is krithikramesh.com. And then I guess my Instagram handle is just Krithik Ramesh. that's usually where, where any life updates happen. And yeah, I usually don't post too much on social media. I've been trying to work on that and be more consistent. But yeah, that's that's pretty much the two biggest places you'll probably find me. Well, I know you're pretty quick on LinkedIn as well. So I'm sure our listeners can find you there. But otherwise Krithik. Thank you so much for joining us on Top of the Class. Krithik: 47:41 Of course, bye bye.

Ep #4 Life After Harvard and Getting Into Y Combinator

🗓 NOV 5, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host: 0:17 Hello, and welcome to the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork, and in this episode, I chat with Soumil Singh. Soumil is from New Zealand and recently graduated from Harvard University, where he studied Applied Mathematics and Computer Science. He now resides in LA, where he's part of the prestigious Y Combinator startup accelerator program. Let's chat with Soumil Singh. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Can I start off by asking when did you graduate from Harvard? Soumil: 0:46 Yeah, so I just graduated this past May. So it was good to get that done. Even though our semester did get impacted by COVID? Of course, so we had to leave campus. But yeah. Podcast Host: 0:57 All right. Yeah. So you're in LA, now you're doing your thing. What's brought you to LA? Soumil: 1:02 Well, it's, it's been a bit of a journey since graduation. So I'll give you some context here. So yeah, I graduated in May, from Harvard with a degree in applied math and computer science. In the fall of senior year, I started a company with a friend of mine. And we applied to a startup accelerator called Y Combinator, and were accepted and backed by YC. So after we graduated, we moved to San Francisco in the middle of, you know, COVID. And we spent three months in the Y Combinator batch, which is the sort of program that I run, sort of get these companies launched. And so that's essentially what I've been spending my time doing. since graduation. It's a very different feel to, to being in class, if you will, but also really, really exciting. And, you know, even though it's only been a short pet, short span of time, has been has been an awesome experience. For our listeners who may not know much about Y Combinator. And for any hosts that might not know too much about Y Combinator, can you break that down a little bit for us? And, you know, why is it such a prestigious program to be a part of? Yeah, so just sort of basic summary of what YC does is they invest a small amount of money, and a large number of new companies twice a year, and they help these companies get launched. So if you, you've heard of companies like Airbnb, stripe, Dropbox, these companies and you know, several other multi billion dollar companies were invested in yc, as you know, the first investor in these companies when they were just founding team. Podcast Host: 2:41 Sorry, it's about when like you got to apply to be a part of YC? Like, how do they even come across you and your company? Soumil: 2:47 Yeah, so they have an open application, you just apply. And then if you're invited to pitch the investors, then you go and pitch your company has to be real, obviously. And then, depending on what they decided that they may invest in your company, and then when they do, then then you're invited to join, join the batch and go through the program. Podcast Host: 3:06 Talk to me about that experience of all that moment that you found out that you'd been accepted. Was that comparative to Harvard acceptance? Soumil: 3:15 Well, yeah, in a way, it kind of was, to be fair, that the process was much shorter than the hobbit acceptance, like these investment decisions, you know, I didn't realize actually happened very quickly. So we've been working on our project and our company applied to yc. We had basically a 10 minute pitch with the with the partners, and and they said, Yep, you're, we're going to invest. And so it was weird, right? Because, you know, you expect this to take a lot longer. But the pace of how startups work, I guess, particular with raising money on the west coast. It's really fast. But yeah, definitely, definitely, I would compare it to the like, level of thrill. Getting into Harvard, just because I really felt like a next step that I want to pursue after graduating. And, yeah, fortunately, I had that chance. Podcast Host: 3:59 And what's it like? Is it, you know, people from around the world are part of Y Combinator at this, like, how many people do they or how many businesses do they take on in any given year? Soumil: 4:08 Yeah. So yeah, it's relatively global. yc is suddenly accepting a lot more companies from India, Africa, the Middle East, in recent years, as investors have sort of caught on that a lot of value creation is happening in those happening in those regions now. Podcast Host: 4:23 How many companies do they roughly take on in a given year? Is it like 100 companies or 1000? Soumil: 4:30 So they run two batches a year and both generally, I believe is between 150 and 200. Founding teams each year, so it's quite a large number. Now. I think they you know, even just a few years ago, they were much less maybe, 50 each batch. Podcast Host: 4:45 But still like a pretty exclusive company to be in even among like 150, 200 startup companies, because I know there's thousands, that are coming up around the world. What's your company about? Soumil: 4:56 Our product basically is a web app that tells buyers Included scooter sharing providers where to place their bikes and scooters to maximize revenue. So the problem that we tackle is a sort of data science problem. So if you've not actually sure what situation is where you might live, but they own in, in San Francisco and LA and Boston, major cities here, bike sharing is, is become an important part of the transportation infrastructure. But the tools that these companies use to determine where the bikes should be at any given time, aren't very sophisticated. So that's where we come in. And we license our software to these different companies in different different cities to make them more efficient for for people basically, yeah, that's sort of in a nutshell, what we do. Podcast Host: 5:37 Why entrepreneurship? Because entrepreneurship obviously is like a pretty tough path. Anyone who's done it before anybody who's heard about it before knows that, even if you have a great idea that it's very challenging to get something up off the ground. Why did you choose entrepreneurship, as opposed to you know, ending up in I guess, like, you know, someone who did Computer Science at Harvard would have an applied maths would have a huge amount of interest from major in investment banks. And these kind of, you know, big financial firms be very interested in someone of your profile. So why did you choose entrepreneurship, as opposed to going into that kind of field? Soumil: 6:14 This is essentially a question. I mean, for me, it felt like a matter of like, what my temperament was, and what I wanted to sort of spend my time doing. To be fair, I've been through recruiting before, and I worked at, you know, some guess, what you might call like, big name, high reputation firms and internships and things like that. But, you know, at some point, I realized that the only reason I really want to keep doing that would be to like, learn like specific skills that I would I would then use to do entrepreneurship. So entrepreneurship, for me has always been the end. Reason is I, I think, I think often talented kids underpriced their time, and they, they don't realize how generous they can be. And I think I fall into this trap before. And I think more recently, I started realizing this. And I think even just going through this process, and trying, it has really shown me that that's actually the case, that's actually true. As I'm now I sort of don't really see better way to spend my time. This is sort of where it's at. And I think the you know, if we talk about professional growth or personal growth, the fact that it is extremely hard, the fact that you need to have strong convictions to make something work and execute like I'm very imperfect at all of these things. But the act of doing it is the only real way to make that happen. So that's, that's also part of the reasoning here. Right. And you talk about undervaluing most students undervalue their time around a price their time. Can you describe a little bit more about way, you may have realized that that could have been a trap that you fall into, like a moment where you will I feel like I have been doing so much more with any given hours in a day right now, as opposed to you're probably sitting in one of those big financial firms thinking I actually I probably could contribute a lot more than sitting in a big financial firm. Is that something that happened to you? Unknown: 7:58 Yeah, I think that's actually fairly accurate. So I interned at Bridgewater as a software engineer and Junior summer. So that would be in the summer of 2019. You know, it's before you sort of arrive at a place like this, you know, you're you're really inspired by the fact that a lot of smart people there, that the level of technology is pretty good. That, you know, this is a company that's moving hundreds of billions of dollars in trading volume. But when you actually work at a place like this, and you know, obviously, this is like my personal perspective, and it's definitely shared by all my friends, you sort of starts feeling very zero sum, you know, particularly in finance, particularly in trading. And the best sort of argument I could glean from any of my colleagues when they were working for why they were doing their job was, you know, they seem to think that, you know, providing liquidity to the markets was a good thing. And, you know, they were making money for pension funds that helped firefighters, but there was no real, there was not as strong reason, or mission or Northstar that anybody really had. And I found that really bizarre, because that's what they're spending all their time doing. And I think that was that was a bit of a wake up call for me. And I realized that, you know, life is not zero sum, we can actually generate things we can create things make things happen. And that's what Crimson is, right? So the best path I can see right now, that, you know, for me at this moment in time, is to give, you know, give entrepreneurship, that sort of best crack I can and to come, you know, as generative as I possibly can and life if that makes sense. So, yeah, that was a that was a wake up call. Definitely. Podcast Host: 9:27 Yeah, I mean, that's, it's pretty good to have a wake up call that early on in a career, right? Because some people end up you know, there's a lot of students, I'm sure who will end up doing a course or you know, going into a job, and it will, you know, sometimes take many years for people to have that kind of lightbulb moment of being like what am I doing with my time? am I spending it the best way I possibly can, you know, what advice would you give to students to encourage them to, you know, have that light bulb moment and be like, you know, take that brave step and go in their own path. Soumil: 10:04 To some extent, this is a, this is a, it's a matter of, you know, temperament and like what you actually want to do. So I don't want to say, you know, all people need to feel the same way I do. And of course, you know, need to care about entrepreneurship, but I imagine the listeners of this podcast are probably many of them may be similar to me in this respect. So, in terms of advice, I think it is often almost looked down upon for young people to begin constructing, like their worldview, and, and, and having real opinions about, about how the society around them is working and, and what the problems are, and how to push them forward. Part of this is may be this feeling of like, oh, who are you to even have opinions about these matters, right? Which pervasive sort of sentiment, I feel, you know, around or even at Harvard, at times, we would expect people to have be very opinionated. Even then sometimes it feels that way, I just think that this is something that we need to fight against, if we, you know, want to be drivers of any kind of change. So my advice would be anybody who wants to do technology, and tech entrepreneurship, which sort of similar to similar to me, would be to try to understand the sort of most important problems that you see around you and your community that using technology, you can go and solve, you know, this, this could take many forms. For us, it was personal frustration, that, you know, when we wanted to get get a blue bike, one of these bike sharing bikes out to ride, often, at peak times, they weren't available, right? And and then we dug a little deeper and realized it was, there's a very good reason for that. And the decision making around where the bike should go was actually flawed. So because we had that sort of instinct of, Oh, this is a problem we can actually solve with technology, this sort of next step wasn't too challenging. We were sort of Okay, let's, let's go and do it. We have the tools. And and we have the conviction that this is actually a problem. And I think that is something that any high school we can do. That would be my advice there. And you know, not to listen to all the sort of narrative that you're too young to have opinions or just don't have opinions, because what can you do? I despise that kind of thinking. And I think that we can be much more sort of empowered and authentic than that at a very young age. Absolutely. Well, I think it's interesting to, you know, when I've been speaking to a couple of students on this podcast, and I think, in general, young entrepreneurs, what they have in common is an ability to see a problem, right and identify the problem, but also to have the skill set. And the kind of, you know, one plus one equals a solution type thinking where like, you've got the skill set, you see the problem, you can see how your skill set can help solve that problem. What kind of skill set? Did you have, at the time, obviously, like computer science more generally. But if you could narrow that down a little bit, to help solve that particular problem in the scooter side of things? And like, Is there any type of, you know, particular skill that you think is more integral than others? Yeah, well, I'll definitely, um, the skill part has mostly been a skill, I think, I think the most important thing you need is conviction behind it behind a certain problem existing or belief, right? This is sort of the core element of, you know, any entrepreneur that I've found to be successful, right, or I respected. So beyond technical skills, that is actually more important, I would say, having conviction behind a particular idea or belief. And you only get that when you start thinking about things. This is sort of independent of technical skills. But when it comes to technology, it's definitely true that picking up these skills is extremely advantageous. So the sort of skills I had, where I had, I had a background in Applied Math. And you know, that that gave me sort of the enough mathematical material to understand what sort of algorithm Do I need to sort of use to solve this data science problem, that was, I think, quite quite important to sort of mobilize the effort pretty early, obviously, programming skills, these are becoming, you know, like programming classes that are extremely available now. And I think I think people are really waking up the idea that there's, there's no sort of time which you have to wait to start learning these things, actually, you know, you can build a foundation yourself pretty quickly. Um, so those two skills definitely, I think one thing that is lost a lot of people early and was lost on me in college. Actually, I think there's a lot of innovation that's been done in internet software. But a lot of young people don't seem to want to do hotter engineering. But I think there's a lot of innovation that is still yet to be done and engineering outside of pure software. So anybody interested in sort of hotter engineering, I would definitely encourage them to go and pursue that. And this is something that I'll probably pursue again, myself in the future. You're looking at post grad, that kind of angled self learning mix mixture of both To be fair, yes. Yeah. So so it may be that that takes the form of a Master's maybe, maybe, you know, it's a matter of sort of joining a lab independently of study. It's just sort of on my mind, it's not something I've really decided yet, I think could definitely be on the horizon at some point. The future? Yeah, okay, well, let's wind back the clock a little bit, because I know a lot of our listeners are going to be still in high school. And let's go back to when you were still in high school. And can you talk a little bit about your journey, and you're from Hamilton in New Zealand, right? Not the biggest town in the world, kind of was the spark that said to you, hey, look, I'm going to go be here. And I'm going to try and apply to Harvard, it must have been quite an out of the box thinking at the time, and it must have taken some kind of spirit and some kind of, you know, conviction, as you said, conviction in your ideas is so important, right? to stick to your guns, even when people are, there's not too many people around you who have the same kind of goals and dreams as you. Yeah. It's weird, right? Because I've always felt the way I felt. And and to me, it almost seemed pretty obvious that I was going to pursue something like that. But yeah, you're right. Like, yeah, look, look to the people around me. And it wasn't something that really at that time anybody was doing, at least in my community, I think I sort of had this fundamental realization, pretty early on that I cared a lot about learning. And I cared a lot about, you know, excellence as something I want to pursue regardless of what I was doing. And I looked at you, I think I was I was here 11, I looked at sort of what I had done in high school. And I just thought to myself, I put in all this work, but there wasn't a real incentive in terms of like University admission, or access to opportunity afterwards, that was really compelling me to do all that stuff, which felt a bit broken, and I looked over to American and understood actually works very differently over there. And there are institutions, which are considered elite where, you know, people like you who have sort of done things similar to me in high school or care about excellence, they all want to go and meet, they're all together, right? And I thought that was an amazing idea. And that was enough for me to sort of say, yes, but can't quite understand really, fundamentally why I was different than anybody else. No, that's fine. That's fine. But do you know you were setting yourself up for this journey to habit? And I think if anybody and I'm sure a lot of people listening are probably thinking, how does one actually gain admission to habit from my understanding of the the application process in the US, you need to kind of have like a strong suit for admission officers can say, hey, this student is, you know, x, y, or Zed. And that's why we want them here at Harvard as well. If you agree with that, what was the main thrust of your application that you lead with? Yes, I do agree with that, you know, these admissions committees and competitive admissions that are looking for outliers. That's, that's true. I think. It wasn't that I had like, one specific strong suit, like I, you know, I've seen some of my friends, for example, are unusually gifted at say, mathematics or something like that. And then and they're, you know, representing their country at the International math Olympiad. That's, you know, that that happens in, in math and in languages, like, where people have like one specific skill that they've really excelled in. But I think the majority of applicants, they may have a strong suit or two, but that was what you call maybe the old rounders, I think I fit myself in that category. If I were to profile myself, some of my strong suits, I mean, definitely academics was a strong suit of mine, when I applied. And, you know, that was very deliberate like I am in my last year of high school. I think at the end of my year, 13, I must have taken about 23 different examinations or something like that some, just like, ridiculous number that I've been cultivating throughout the entire year in preparing for, and I'm sure that stood out to the admissions committee. I think sport was another one for me that, you know, there was there was an interest that I'd had since since I was a kid played a lot of cricket and played at a reasonably high level as well, in high school. I think these the combination of those two things, I think, actually ended up being pretty compelling. I think those are probably my two strongest suits. Talk us through that academic profile, because 23 exams, that has pi eyes watering a little bit, it's obviously like a pretty intense undertaking. Why did you decide to undertake that much of a workload in an already, you know, what is deemed an already very stressful final use of high school? What was the decision process there? And like, did you regret it at any stage? Well, I mean, it's not necessarily the wisest strategy, just looking back, I think, is very different strategy. And there are few reasons why I thought this would be the best thing to do for me. And the first one was the pace of learning in school, like, at around year 11, I would say I sort of, like really realized that, you know, if I just spent my time properly, I could learn all this stuff a lot quicker. And when you when you have academic leaders on your side as well, you know, when I got a decent amount of academic tutoring, and yet the team, these people really help you accelerate your learning. So that that was one aspect of it, I sort of realized, Oh, wait, there's actually all this sort of spare capacity in my mind that like, isn't being used. I think it's actually true for most people, I would say, it's a matter of provisioning your time properly and having the right mentors. So that was one realization. The other was, it's not that all those 23 exams were entirely independent. So for example, in year 13, I learned level math. And like outside of school because my school didn't offer a levels. And I took that exam in June. So that was one exam. But then, you know, in school, I was still enrolled in NCAA level three calculus, which is a subset of what I learned in a level math. Right, right. So by June, I was ready to take the final exam for what I was doing in school, which we wish was going to happen in November. So it wasn't like I had to study twice for that. So there was some overlap. I think both those things meant it Actually, it was hard, I'm not gonna lie, it took a lot out of me at the time. At the end, I think part of it was just definitely challenging myself and just running an experiment to see, you know, what I could actually get done? You know, what am I capable of? You know, it's sort of a question I was very personally interested in finding the answer to, and I'm still doing that, by the way, you know, this is what this is part of what the sort of entrepreneurial journey is, answering the question What, what, you know, what can I get done? I think I think that's, that's what drove me to do that, and really paid off, which I was surprised by when I got my results back. I was I was kind of shocked, turned out quite well. And I think that was, that was a big confidence boost. Was it the most academically challenging year of your life to date? I mean, you've done a lot of stuff since then four years of Harvard, a double degree in applied math, computer science, starting a business, those kinds of things. And is that final year of high school compared to what you've done? Since? Yeah, I think I think in terms of numbers, number of hours, it's, it has been, it was the most academically, sort of challenging part of my life so far, but I will say, um, you know, in high school, you had the luxury of sort of very openly exploring academic interest, you have this in college, too. But I didn't, I didn't feel like I needed to spend much time thinking about where my academic interests were directed in high school was just, okay, I'm interested in these things, I'm just going to pursue all of them. And that's sort of okay. Whereas in college, it feels like, it feels much more like you need to sort of cultivate interests that, you know, you're organically really believe in and want to sort of pursue beyond college as well. So the academic challenge in college is not only doing like harder coursework than you're used to also deciding what your academic curriculum is going to be comprised of, because you do have that freedom and a liberal arts system. And I think people who do this really well have a great time. And the opposite is also possible, you know, you can you can really fail to cultivate what what you otherwise envisioned. And and it doesn't go super well. So either we're careful about that, and strategic and plan that out properly. So that was, that was more of a challenge in college, I would say that, and also learning maybe some harder math, which was just a challenge to Yeah, and it must have been some pretty intense mathematics classes at Harvard. But talk to me about what kind of decision what kind of direction Did you think that you were going to go in? After high school? And during your time at Harvard? Did you change? Or did you stay the course from what you thought you were going to do? Because you ended up? Obviously graduating with a double degree applied maths and computer science. But was that always the plan? No, no, it wasn't always the plan. I mean, when I remember my the first conversation I had with my academic advisor in freshman year, I was really at a loss for what to study, I actually had no idea, I was really, really open to the possibilities. But I was actually quite afraid of committing to a particular direction. Um, and I think I was afraid of that. And I was also pretty afraid of taking really, really challenging classes. Because when you, when you go to one of these institutions, like a really challenging class, obviously, you'll have to work a lot more, and you may get a worse grade. And I think these two things sort of caused me to stagnate a little bit, I think early on in college, I was a little unsure, I was taking some math classes that were maybe actually initially a little easier than they should have been for me, because I was I was sort of afraid to take the next level up. And I wasn't sure I wanted to do computer science, because it seemed kind of too foreign to me, you know, looking back that would that sort of a strange feeling because I knew I want to do entrepreneur entrepreneurship of some kind. But I felt this hesitation to learn technology, which is a bit bit of a bit oxymoronic, if that makes sense. I'm not Yes, you know, it could have been pretty obvious that that's what I should go and do. But yeah, I still think I was pretty open in some ways to open early on. And so what helped to solidify your decisions, what helped kind of point you in a direction and you were like, Okay, this is where I want to go and how far were you into your college degree? When that happened? Or college journey? I should say, not really degree. But What year were you in when you decided, Okay, I'm going to start committing now. I think I was, at the end of or six second half of sophomore year when I realized that computer science was something I want to pursue. I knew that applied math was definitely on the horizon because it gives you a lot of freedom. In terms of pursuing different kinds of STEM, you can do statistics, you can do computer science, you can do other sciences as well. In addition to applied math, that's sort of how the Degree Works. But but I think I think, you know, the liberal arts system gives you a bit of capacity to some Like AV testing, you take a certain kind of class, if you don't like it, then then then you sort of move on try something else. So an example of this was, I was unsure about whether I wanted to pursue physics. And there's a good argument to pursue physics actually, because it's so upstream of other engineering problems. So if you're interested in engineering, physics can be great. But I didn't, I didn't really like studying physics, in college, maybe was a class I took, but there's something that felt wrong about it. You know, and at the same time, I was doing this computer science class, and I could vividly see the sort of superpower learning computer science could give me over physics at that time. And that, then I could sort of make the decision to pursue CS a bit more rigorously. Right. Okay. So that, yeah, good, good decisions. But I guess it's like, all through experimentation and trying to look forward and seeing how this might impact your life later on. And making decisions based on that I can see there's a lot of students who go into this kind of like, blindly or they go into things and don't critically think their way through it, they just kind of do it. And once they've committed, you know, they kind of think it's a bit of a foe par to go back, and no change cause or, you know, admit to themselves that this isn't the right path they want to take, there's always been this kind of like weird to boot way, like it is much better to commit to a path. And even if it's not the right path for you, like as long as you can be seen to be committed, rather than going back and changing things and critically thinking like is the best path for me, and how's it going to benefit me in the future, I find this like such a difficult path for young people to make, like, you know, 16 to 2223, like, your concepts of what you might do five years or 10 years in the future, they must change like, every six months, especially when you got opportunities at Harvard coming at you left, right and center, what what advice would you give to students to help kind of navigate those challenges, and I guess, have the bravery in a sense to kind of admit to yourself, this is not what I want to do, or this is what I want to do. And both of them require bravery. Well, you know, something you meant, you just sort of just mentioned, was the value in critical thinking and to enemy critical thinking means resisting the urge to reason by analogy, and trying to reason as much as you can from first principles values that you hold. So an example of reasoning by analogy that wouldn't end up great use for your friends. And they're all like, let's say they're all pursuing finance, and then something deep down that you deep down like in you, it's sort of similar to how I feel about about about that path. But that doesn't really enjoy that that doesn't really want to pursue it. But by analogy, you think all the smart people are doing it, therefore you go and do it. And I think that this is much easier to do than then to reason from, from first principles and from your own values. But for any young person, I mean, this is fundamentally what it takes, right? You need to you need to reason from your own convictions, more so than then sort of following following the crowd or, you know, reasoning by by by analogy, I think that it's a really hard thing to do. And when it feels like you don't necessarily have those principles, very well formed yet. And early in your life, it's particularly hard. But the best thing to do is start building those those those intuitions, because you want to as quickly as possible, start thinking as independently as you can. It doesn't mean you just blindly go against crowds. That's not that's not the point here. But I want to make sure the decisions that you make your own decisions. That's basically I think, what it takes, yeah, it sounds like you regard those convictions and those first principles, almost as if, like, they're a muscle, right. And I think a lot of students go through high school and, you know, go through sometimes university as well, without really building that muscle without really thinking critically with, as you say, just kind of like living their life is, you know, where's the crowd going? And let me follow that type of thing, or what are my friends doing? And let me follow that. And it sounds like you built that muscle of your conviction, your first principles, and that's something that's been quite integral to how you've lived your life and the path that you've chosen like you. You went to Harvard, when not many people were going to have it, you went into entrepreneurship, when I'm sure a lot of other people weren't going into entrepreneurship. So I think that that's like a super fascinating thing that I really want students and parents anybody listening to the podcast right now to take away from, you know, your story right now, for me, like, it's such an important thing. But sometimes, I'm in my 30s. And I'm still kind of not thinking critically enough about what I'm doing and how it's going to benefit me and what changes it's going to make. So did you ever like journal or you know, how did you guess I guess flex this muscle of your convictions? Your first principles? Yeah, you fit for later life? Is it something that you did on a regular basis and get in the habit of? Yeah, I think I mean, I think so. I mean, just just to be just to be clear about this. I am still very, very bad. It's a very hard thing to do. Podcast Host: 29:51 Of course, it's always an evolution. Soumil: 29:53 Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm striving for all like constantly. And just some examples like, I can myself thinking by analogy all the time, right? When you're in a startup environment, the easiest thing to do is to think by analogy, like, Oh, look, look at that software. They're they're doing this thing. And it's working great like maybe go do that. But that's actually, that's sort of a b testing mindset that doesn't end up really working very well. And sort of is an infinite spiral, which you don't want to you don't want to get involved in, but it's very easy trap to fall into. So yeah, I did, but I definitely think it's, it's pretty clear to me, this is a muscle that anybody can really, they can build and, and flex. I'm not sure I exactly like thinking of the process I took. Podcast Host: 30:35 Yeah, even if it's just like bouncing ideas off other people. Soumil: 30:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is definitely community aspect to this. So I think, I think it was a matter of identifying other people who valued this, who valued an independent thought and, and saw that you actually saw the importance of it. And we're also striving to not think think, by analogy all the time. And I think that that's the best tool I found. So right now I'm living with a couple of roommates of mine. And they're good friends of mine. And they are, you know, are people who, I think feel the same way I do about this. Throughout the day, our discussions, we often actually talk about the importance of convictions and, and analyzing where society is thinking by analogy, and you know, sort of where the crowd is moving, and maybe what these assumptions that the crowd has, they're actually incorrect. I think that this is a constant process that that you can build into a community. And I think that's also that's probably also my drive to go to Harvard, to be fair, I realized that I didn't want to just follow what everybody else around me was doing. And I had this strong feeling that the people who felt the similar way were going to be at Harvard, and a lot of them were, it turns out, obviously not a perfect community. But that was the sort of part of motivation. So yeah, community definitely, definitely helps cultivate this. Podcast Host: Yeah, I completely agree. That's fantastic that you found that community I have, and that was one of the driving forces behind it. I'm always fascinated by you know, what happens in those first couple of days at Harvard, you know, like, it must be such an amazing kind of feeling for all these talented students, like, you know, living out this dream, right? Because it is a dream for many to be on campus. Can you describe those first, you know, couple of days, that first week or two, where you're on campus, and kind of mixing with all these other students from around the world? Who can now call themselves Harvard students? Soumil: Yeah, it's pretty epic. Actually, I think I think the most staggering thing is when you arrive on campus, it's, it's, it's like a real campus, you know, it's red brick, you just sort of move around the sort of almost historic site with a bunch of people wearing these like, very modern clothes, right? Because obviously, we're living in the present. Yes, sort of this weird, weird contrast? Yeah, first couple of days, you know, they're really interesting and fairly intimidating, because you sort of arrive here and, you know, intellectually, before you get there, that people are gonna be very different from what you expect. But then you've actually made them through, you know, they're actually very different people. And, you know, the things that make them tick are very different. And I think that the first two days, for me, were just about just adjusting to that, you know, first time out of New Zealand, like living somewhere outside of New Zealand. So there was some like cultural adjustment I had to make. And, you know, this bled into really, really basic things like senses of humor, for example. You know, I felt like, understanding what made people laugh actually was was sort of a significant thing I need to do before I bonded with people. Obviously, that's just one example of many differences that that I encountered. But, you know, it was those differences. And obviously, that that made the sort of environment that I wanted, and sort of diversity of thought that that I really want to experience. So pretty intimidating first couple of days, but but it's sort of the beauty of the place as well. And I'm always fascinated by I guess, that idea of imposter syndrome versus like that sense of belonging that you want to have when you're on a campus like that. I don't know a huge amount about imposter syndrome. I know that some students do feel it. And it you know, for those listeners who are out there wondering what it is essentially. So correct me if I'm wrong here. But essentially, it's like students who may be first gen first generation students on campus, they come from, not like your typical kind of Ivy League backgrounds. And they're on campus all of a sudden, and like, they're mixing with these students who come from, like, super well for royalty or all kinds of like different areas. And they're thinking, whoa, am I really supposed to be here? What was your kind of thoughts as a guy from Hamilton in New Zealand, going to Harvard? Was it Did you have any kind of feelings of strong sense of belonging or strong sense of imposter syndrome or somewhere in the middle potentially, like, what was your feelings around that? Yeah, I'm not sure I felt imposter syndrome in the same way that some of my peers have described it to me. Like I felt like I did feel like I deserve to be there. Right? Sort of didn't question that. But I definitely didn't necessarily feel a sense of belonging to begin with, I felt pretty alone. When I got there. I was like, Whoa, these people are very different to me. And they come from all over the place. And so yeah, initially it was it was jolting. Right? And takes assessment. So definitely feel a sense of belonging, you know, obviously, there, there are plenty of very intelligent people around. And they're, they're intelligent in different ways. So it's inevitable that you compare yourself to other people. And, you know, that's, that's a recipe for disaster, right? Because, you know, at any particular skill, you can always find somebody who's maybe a bit better at that skill, then you put us in a place like that. Um, so I think for almost anybody who goes there, pretty much everyone, you sort of have to digest the fact that maybe you're not the best at, at a specific skill that that you might have otherwise been in high school. For me, I think I actually dealt with that reasonably well. And luckily, made made friends who I think saw through all of that pretty quickly. And we realized that, you know, we were just a bunch of people who just is trying to, to try to prove their interest. And I think that, again, this this relates to the sort of paradigm I like to refer back to of thinking, thinking by analogy, or thinking by all convictions, the difference between those two things. If you just think by analogy, you'll compare yourself to all these people. And that's fundamentally defeating. I think that's something I would caution against, as a cause for this imposter syndrome that people will talk about one of those things that I think when I chat with students here in Australia, about their desire to study overseas, it's often a bit of like a double edged sword, like they'd love to go, but it's, you know, so intimidating as well, right? The thought of being on the other side of the world, mixing people who you've never met before, can be exciting and intimidating at the same time. And, and I think it's just kind of writing out that first couple of months, everybody, you know, everybody comes in with that same kind of excitement, slash intimidation, but then it wears off when people start realizing, oh, wait, everyone's just in the same boat. Right? And, you know, like, it's that everybody's going through a very similar experiences and just different ways. Yeah, eventually just turns into the place where people live, you know, people are living there. And, you know, not necessarily for everybody, but for most people just ends up just feeling at home after after, you know, not too long, just inevitably, because people adjust, and they live next to each other, and they have to get along. Yeah. Can you sum up, I guess, the whole Harvard experience for us? Just, I know, it's hard. And I know a lot of people say like, the people are the best thing about it. And I wouldn't blame you if you did say that. Because I know that. Obviously, it's a it's a people focused three or four years where you're there on campus and just mixing with your friends for three or four years. But what do you think that's done to you as a person? How has that changed you? How has that helped you become who you are today? Like, has it, you know, helped you become more worldly? Has it helped you to, you know, have a greater depth of knowledge? Has it kind of showing you your own ignorance, like in in many instances, like you realize, Oh, my gosh, I'm, there's so much out there to know, and I've only just scratched the surface? Like, how does that experience it? has it affected you? Unknown: 38:02 Yeah, I think it's made me a lot more ambitious than I used to be, in terms of really believing that I can get something, get something done in the world. And I think that's a sort of good confidence boost that that that, that experience being here, being at Harvard. So that's definitely sort of the main takeaway, I would say. And, yeah, that's definitely driven by people very much believe that people in organizations, if you remove all of them, the campus is pretty useless. Right? his professors, his friends, are the mentors. So that sort of confidence boost some of them, I think, I grew alongside my friends, which was awesome. I think. Now, the key takeaway was, was, um, it just gives you the freedom to study what, whatever you really want to. That's, that's sort of the beauty of a liberal arts system. And I think if I were to think of the alternative universe where I stayed in New Zealand, I may end up studying studying similar things, but the sort of breadth of curriculum would have been much smaller, and my willingness to, to at least try out different interests would have been would have been lower, I think. And I think, for me, that was that was really valuable. I wonder if I would have been as inclined to learn computer science, for example, in New Zealand, might not have happened that way, potentially, particularly because the common sort of narrative in New Zealand if you're if you're doing particularly well, in high school, you should go and study medicine or, or law or some sort of more standard engineering route, rather than, say, theoretical computer science. It doesn't really come on, it's not really on your radar. Um, yeah, in the same way as it was for me here. So I think that was hugely valuable, and has given me an attitude of sort of learning and seeing the value of learning broadly, and being able to learn on my own as well that I'm really grateful I have now. Podcast Host: 39:45 What's it like to have known that you've studied at Harvard, to know that you're a Harvard alum? That title, that prestige that association of the top university in the world, by many different rating. Yeah, what's that like to be off campus? But still knowing that you've got, you know, that haven't next to your name? Or do you not think about it that much, do you just kind of live your life? Soumil: 40:12 It might surprise people, I don't really think about it. Yeah, I think for me, you know, starting a company now, the, the metric I'm looking at is, is the company going to work or not? Right, right. Is the idea good or not? Do people want what we're building? And I sort of caution against, you know, thinking early, so myself thinking in terms of sort of credentialism, I think, you know, being at Harvard is really, really helpful and a great experience, but I can't use Harvard's name, for example, to build successful company that just won't work. Right. So it's about it really is about the skills that you take away from place like that. And I think anybody who does the experience well, like does Harvard well, they don't need to think about the fact that they went to Harvard because they have, they sort of graduated with, with this sort of skill, vision and ambition to do what they want to do. And, and that's, that's actually what makes them powerful and agents in their life. Sort of, that's the perspective I like to take. So yeah, I honestly don't really think about it too hard. Soumil: 41:10 No, that's awesome. I love the fact either. Yeah, like, you're only judged by, you know, your, your latest adventure, right? Like, it's, it's not something that you look back at, and people be like, Oh, you're a Harvard guy. So, you know, we got to give you a free pass here, like you're only ever as good as your last outing, or last game or whatever they say in the sporting terminology, right. And in this case, it's, you know, your time at Y Combinator. So talk to us a little bit about what you see happening in the next six months, year, two years, and where you hope to be with both the Y Combinator program and and your entrepreneurship pathway. Yeah, I think the the sort of ideal cases, building a company that is scales to be a billion dollar company, that that sort of the overarching ambition there, I think that's sort of external reality internally, I want to the things that I want to prove to myself are, you know, my abilities really execute on on technology and an on an idea that operates in the real world is used by real people and solves a real problem. So So this is sort of the internal work that I want to get done. And, and sort of prove to myself over the next next little while, I think, another goal I have is to sort of, I'm not exactly sure how I'm gonna factor this in, but definitely improve my technical ability and improve this increase the scope of technology that I can work on. And the scope of problems that I can work on, I think is really important to me. And a third goal I have, which is maybe separate from some of the stuff, I'm pretty into meditation and spirituality, reading about it, practicing it. And I think this is a this is a pathway that is very separate from sort of brute force, ambition, get things done, but is really, really important to me. And I think I can improve myself as a person, quite significantly by pursuing that as well. So we'll see. Absolutely, and I'm so glad that you've mentioned that, right? Because, you know, I think a lot of people would be like, Oh, this guy is like, he's got the ambition to create a billion dollar company, go, go go. But you know, it's balance. Right. And, and the meditation, spirituality side of things is such an important part of AI, particularly people who are gogogo, right, like they should be practicing those kinds of things to help them balance out their days and their weeks. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I mean, I think meditation is really taking care of your cognition and giving you perspective to really properly understand what what's meaningful in the world and what you want to pursue. So it almost seems to one of the same. It's just, it's part of this overall journey that I want to take in the next few years, and honestly, for the rest rest of my life as well. So it seems unrelated, independent, but it's actually it's actually all one of the same, to be honest, Podcast Host: 43:51 I just want to go back to one of the other things you said as well, which I loved, which was the idea of scaling the company to be a billion dollar company, right. And that must have taken some getting used to, to be able to voice that goal or that ambition. And that kind of pairs up with what you said you got from Harvard, which is the vision, ambition and skills to go out and achieve what you want to achieve. If you hadn't had that experience at Harvard. Do you think he would have been as confident in saying that you wanted to build a billion dollar company? Soumil: 44:24 Oh, maybe not. I mean, it's That's a hard question. Right? Like, it's very hard... Podcast Host: 44:30 Alternate universes Soumil, who didn't go to Harvard, right? Soumil: 44:34 Yeah, yeah. Who knows? I mean, I think that guy also probably would have had some pretty strong conviction that he wants to do something interesting, but maybe not as quickly or as strongly necessarily. I think going to Harvard in a very direct way. allowed me to, like demonstrate to me that I could actually get these things done. You know, why not? Me? Right? Yes, that in pop community you get around you, you know, when people see through the illusion that You know, you can't get things done in the world and community of people like that, then it really rapidly increases your growth in that direction. Maybe in an alternative community where I where I didn't go, didn't come to Harvard, not sure exactly what that would what that would have been or where that would have been. But if that was lacking, I imagined it taking a lot longer to reach the conclusion that I probably, hopefully would have ended up reaching anyway, yeah. Podcast Host: 45:23 Benefit of being in a community of outliers, because when you're in a community of outliers, everybody looks like they're going to achieve something great. And that's like the expectation, right? Whereas if you're an outlier, among a community where it's not consider the damn thing, then it's harder to kind of fight against, or to find your own path. And people kind of look at you strange, if you get, you know, trying to say that you're going to start a billion dollar company when you're in your early 20s. But no hats off to you. I think it's fantastic. And I'm sure you'll go on to achieve every success. Final couple of questions. What advice would you give to high school students who are dreaming big, who have you know, those massive ambitions, whether that be Harvard or entrepreneurship, or whatever it might be? Obviously, like, you know, we chatted quite a bit about, like, the principles and having that conviction. You know, what advice would you give to students? Would it be along those lines? Soumil: 46:13 Yeah, I think I think so the way I would frame the advice is to give some fairly good fairly balanced advice on sort of working hard, but also, like looking after mental health. And, and, and also resisting the urge to follow the crowd. And, or, you know, as I said before, recent by analogy, I think, rather that some of this, I work very hard in high school, which was great, it gave me great results. But because I hadn't quite figured out what my convictions were going to be. And I didn't really sort of had to have a sense for why that was important. That created a lot of challenges for me when I reach college, right? So early in your freshman year, it was unclear what my motivations were going to be and why I was doing certain things, you know, what was the new incentive to work really hard? So you just figure these things out? And, you know, my younger brother actually, who's, funnily enough, he's actually applying to colleges. Now. I actually learned a lot from him, because he, I think, you know, in terms of in terms of having much more balanced approach to ambition, and also, understanding motivations, has been able to teach me a lot. And I think, yeah, I think you need both of these things. You don't want to work hard, but without focus. And I think that that is what we need to strive for. So progress with real reason and direction, as opposed to just following the crowd and working hard follow the crowd that's working hard in the wrong direction. And yeah, this is this is this is sort of little kernel of wisdom i'd maybe impart on to people in high school now. And something I think is really important, no matter where you're at in life. Yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of students out there who are looking for study tips or study hacks, or they're looking for how to get the best score, but as to, you know, the clarity of why they're chasing these goals, it can be a little bit unclear. And as to what they hope to achieve after that point, after finishing school, that can even be more unclear because they've kind of been swept up in the perceived achievement of getting a great score. But they haven't really thought too much about, you know, how the school might end up changing their lives or impacting their lives, or what they hope to do with it, and where they hope to go after that. And I think it's, it's something that, as you say, like, it's that muscle that they can start building no matter what age, and students can start, you know, thinking about how they can have those convictions and principles to help guide them in their future decision making? Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's hard to think of it this way. But But these, you know, these accolades, his achievements there, there should be means to an end rather, they're not the ends themselves. Yes. And in high school, very hard to think this way. It was really, really hard for me to think this way, I just really, you know, I really want to get into these institutions with the communities that I had, that they had there and the pursuits that I could do. But you know, this still was an element of Okay, now that when I get there, I'm going to be able to unleash the potential that I want to unleash. And I think that always important to bear that in mind. You don't want to treat these things as ends in themselves. Yeah. Podcast Host: 49:00 Is there any other way that students could follow your journey or get in contact with you? Soumil: 49:04 Definitely. Um, so yeah, if anyone wants to reach out to me, I'm, I mean, the best way I think would be just to add me on Facebook and send me a message. Pretty easy to find. I think there's a nice little profile picture of me not in a Harvard ersey so you'll know who it is Anybody who wants to reach out and wants to talk just hit m up, and we'll go from there Podcast Host: 49:23 You're a legend man, thanks so much for your time. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Ep #3 Raising $1.8M for Charity Before High School

🗓 NOV 3, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host: 0:17 Hello, and welcome to the top of the class podcast. I'm your host Alex Cork. And in this episode, I chat with Jack Berne, who founded the Fiver for a Farmer campaign when he was nine years old. Since then, Jack has raised nearly $2 million for drought stricken Australian farmers. Jack shares with us how the idea came about how we got the media and Prime Minister on board and his advice for students wanting to make the most of fundraising. Let's check with Jack Berne. Jack, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from and what you love who you are currently in. Jack Berne: 0:52 Well, thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm Jack Berne. I'm 12 years old, and I'm in year six right now. And I started a charity called a Fiver for a Farmer. Podcast Host: 1:02 Fantastic. So you're in New South Wales? Jack Berne: 1:07 I'm from the Northern Beaches, which is right in the Sydney it's really great place right on the beach wishes Perfect. Podcast Host: 1:15 Okay, and let's just give the listeners a little bit of an idea of what a Fiver for a Farmer has gone on to achieve how much money has been raised for the charity to date? Well, it's been three years since I started and I've raised $1.8 million, which is crazy to think about, it's pretty cool. It's a phenomenal effort. And what we're going to be chatting about today is how you started the charity, and then your advice for students who are looking to perhaps start charity or you know, because fundraising is a very big part of like a lot of students experiences, and how you can go from setting a goal of like 500, or $1,000, to being perhaps a little bit more ambitious with what your totals might be. So take us back three years. How did Fiver for a Farmer come about? Where was the initial idea from? Jack Berne: 2:02 Um, well, I was just in class, you know, just a normal school day. And I watched this btn clip, which is the kids news. And I saw out on farms, lots of bad things were happening. And drought was just taking big toll on lots of farmers lives. And especially their kids were skipping school and not playing sport with their friends. And it was just a really hard lot for them. And they were always back on the farm doing hard work. So I went home to mom and I was kind of like, This is crazy. Like, I can't believe this is happening in our own backyard. And I need to do something about this. And she kind of looked at me bit weirdly, and like, What are you talking about? And there's a massive drag going on that's been going on for six years. And I was thinking of ideas on how I could help and Fiver for a Farmer came along and I said, Maybe my school get behind me and I can do it around my local areas. And so I wrote an email to my school, all the Channel Nine, Channel 10. All those people may be thinking one of them might respond and if it all go from there. So I sent off that email with my idea and just went to school the next day as normal. And then the channel seven producer and my mom walked up the stairs. And they told me they loved my idea. And we should go live on television the next morning. Podcast Host: 3:28 So hang on, let me just get this timeline straight. Yeah, you watch the show on btn. Or you listen to it. You're watching the show on btn. You go home, you say 'Hey, mum, this is pretty crazy. I want to try and make a difference here.' When did you come up with the idea of Fiver for a Farmer? Was it that night? Jack Berne: 3:44 Yeah, it was that night like just on the like, I was just thinking, maybe I do gold coin donations. And then I was thinking or it's pretty bad. Maybe $5. And then my mom saying you should get it wrong. So then it's stuck in people's head. And it's like, really smart. And so I was thinking of all these ideas, and then a Fiver for a Farmer came up. And I had my idea of bringing $5 and dressing up because who doesn't love a dress up day. Podcast Host: 4:13 Absolutely. Yeah. So that's one of the things that really struck me like I've got a marketing background. And I love the slogan. I thought it was such a catchy slogan, fiver pharmacy, your mom is absolutely right. And you've done a fantastic job. Because it tells you how much it gives people an exact amount. And I think when you're doing fundraising, a lot of people are like, Oh, how much do I give? You know, and they're trying to figure out themselves? Should I give $1 should I give $10? And you've taken out that kind of thought process because you're saying all right, it's a fiver. That's how much we want and who's it going to it's going to a farmer and it's not to farmers in general. It's farmer specific and I think I don't know if you thought that much about it. But I really like it just a Fiver for a Farmer. It's like, you know, a may helping make type of thing. So I really like that thought process. That night, did you send off your emails to the school and channel seven to nine child 10 that night? Or did you wait a day or Jack Berne: 5:06 why it was straightaway I didn't like think about it at all. I just sent it to everyone who listened to me. And yeah, like those one or two people who if they responded, that'd be pretty cool. And it all paid off, which was Podcast Host: 5:19 crazy, just sent like a cold email till I tell seven to nine to 10. Jack Berne: 5:23 But my nine year old self had bad punctuation, like all this stuff, and I refuse to let mom write it for me do anything to it. It was a cold email. And I just said, This is my idea, blah, blah, blah, can you please help. And then I just put my mom's phone number at the bottom. But I didn't show her email, because I was afraid she was going to edit it and stuff. And so the next day, she's just getting all these phone calls from people. And she's like, what's like, what's happening? I don't understand. And then I guess she kind of figured it out that are a nightmare last night and put a phone number at the bottom. But it was all pretty crazy at the time. Podcast Host: 6:05 Was that a tactical thing that you said, Look, ma'am, I don't want you to edit the email. I want this to be from me. And I want this to, you know, I want CHANNEL SEVEN, Channel Nine to know that this is like a nine year old writing this email and not someone and mom writing this email for them type of thing. Does that kind of thinking come into it as well. Jack Berne: 6:25 I think when I was doing it, I was kinda like, I know they're not gonna they're not gonna want to look at it as much. As I say, Hi, I'm jack. I'm nine years old. With perfect punctuation. They know that. I'm not writing it. But if it's so genuine that I'm writing, it just makes it I guess a lot more like, interesting. Because I'm, I think of it this way. If I'm a kid, and I start a lemonade stand out front of my house. Yep. people stop buying lots of like, Oh, this is so great. Like this. Yeah. But it'd be a bit weird if like, my dad did that. Or, like an adult did that I guess like kids kind of have that effect on people to just like, make you feel good, which is really cool. Podcast Host: 7:05 Yeah. And so Channel Seven rocks up with your mum. Now, have you done any media before? Had you been on TV before? Anything like that? Jack Berne: 7:13 No, not at all. Like, never done anything. Like, I was the quiet kid in my class. And I hated public speaking. And I just was really nervous to go on TV. And I guess when you're talking about something you're passionate about, it just makes everything so much easier to talk about. Podcast Host: 7:31 So what kind of questions that they ask and how was that whole experience getting your first interview done? Jack Berne: 7:36 It was pretty crazy. Because that night, we just had to go into full like panic mode. And we didn't know anything on what we're doing now. Like, okay, so what's your branding? Is that copyrighted? Do you have a Go Fund Me? Do you have a page that we can go to? And we were like, No, we have none of this. We thought, your work? Yeah, thing, and then we'd send it off to one of the big charities. And so we just went all out all night doing all this stuff. And my mom had all our friends helping. And we had the GoFundMe page, a website and just from there, we've made it better and better and we got more used to the media. And I guess now it is it's pretty good. Podcast Host: 8:17 So when it's like an established charity now like it's, it's really well known around Australia for like all the primary schools, particularly in New South Wales, but even in Victoria and Queensland as well, which is fantastic. The logo, which I think is fantastic, you've got again, you know, the farmer's hat, really, you're repping it there on your shirt, got the merchant everything, which is fantastic. Talk to us a little bit about who created the logo and what kind of thought went into that. Jack Berne: 8:42 So mom kind of thought of the idea of like, the $5 note has to be put into Word and like, What's something that every farmer has or like, what every stereotype farmer has is a hat. So putting that $5 mode in here and just putting the hat and just making it bold and putting the big letters of Fiver for a Farmer in it was really the whole ideas and then we sent it off to a stitcher and I got given this shirt on after being on Channel Seven and I asked my mom asked them to put this on the shirt and this is my like shirts Podcast Host: 9:18 This is your go to now. Jack Berne: 9:19 My go to Podcast Host: 9:20 Yeah, absolutely! So your repping it pretty h rd which is great. It sounded l ke from my perspective and see ng the amount of work that as going into what you were doin I mean you were doing very quic ly a quite a lot of media you en ed up doing pretty much daily vl gs was it daily vlogs? Jack Berne: 9:36 Yeah, it was like n the go we just keep getti g people interested in keepi g them in the like flow of i Podcast Host: 9:43 So did you miss school at all? Jack Berne: 9:45 Oh, the first like couple months I miss, I'm gonna say three weeks of school because I just was just saying yes to everything and it's so hard to manage. Just Like my time, and then their time too, because you're just accounting for both things. And I missed quite a bit of school. But I think my teachers were really great with that they helped me so much. And just like, filling me in on bits I missed was just really perfect. And I guess I kind of made up for it, which was great. Podcast Host: 10:20 Yeah, well, I mean, you were doing some fantastic work. And you were learning heaps along the way. Can you just talk us through I guess some of the the major skills that you learned as a result of starting Fiver for a Farmer? Jack Berne: 10:31 I guess I learnt that you just have to be bold. And if you sit back and don't want to if you're shy, it's not going to work for you. I went from that quiet kid in class to just always chatting and always getting better. And I went from a bad public speaker to a great public speaker, but it was just in one quick and I guess you just need to find that passion that burns a fire in your belly when you're talking about it and roll with it. Because I guess I just learned that once you're talking about something you really love, it's so easy, and especially if you know lots about it. So do your research on this thing. You can't just go in empty handed so I was doing lots of research before I should say now and I guess you've just got to always be ready. Podcast Host: 11:16 So when you started this charity, did you actually know any farmers? Or was it just literally saying the news story and being like that affects? You know, even though I don't know any farmers, and I'm not a farmer myself, I feel affected by this. I feel like I can make a difference. Jack Berne: 11:32 Yeah, I didn't. I've never been on a farm before this. I never any farmers, it was just completely fresh. And just seeing people suffer, I guess, wanted me to help make like make myself help them. So I just went for Podcast Host: 11:46 what was your original goal? Do you remember your original goal? Jack Berne: 11:49 Like right at the start? Yeah, thousand dollars. And sunrise were like, Nah, you got to go higher than that. 2020 grand, a lot, is a great idea. It's going to be really good. And I was like, 20 grand, like, that's so much money. Yeah. But we just had faith have faith in them. And we're like, yep, 20 grand. So we went with 20 grand. And we raise 20 grand in 13 hours, which is insane. Podcast Host: 12:13 That's amazing. I just want to go through that just a little bit more, because that's another really good point of fundraisers as well, when sunrise said 20,000. And now you're at 1.8 million. Do you have another goal? And what would you say to students who are wanting to start fundraising in terms of setting a fundraising goal? What do you think they should be thinking about? When they set that up? Jack Berne: 12:34 You just got to be bold. 20 grand was very, very bold for me. So putting yourself out there is enough. So if it doesn't go your way, and nothing clicks into place, it will happen because good things happen to good people. And if you're thinking of ideas, and you're trying to help other people, something good is gonna happen to you. Podcast Host: 12:56 Yeah, but I think sunrise was, you know, sunrise for those people who don't know, is there television, very popular television, morning show here in Australia, they did a good thing because they know 20,000 sounds a lot more. You know, you can grab a little bit more attention with 20 grand, then you could say with $1,000. And now you're at one point Id do you have any other goals? Now? Is there any other monetary goal that you've tagged to it? Jack Berne: 13:19 Yeah, obviously 2 million would be awesome, but I'm not gonna be too flustered if I don't, because 1.8 million is quite a lot of money. And I think that what I'm everyone's done in Australia has been really good. Because I mean, one point out millions crazy. And I guess it's that ripple effect that caused this, you know, everyone just wanted to help out. And if everyone donated $5, it'd be quite a lot of money. And I still can't believe we saw we've raised 1.8 million. Podcast Host: 13:51 So it's pretty crazy. Do you have some farmers at different areas of Australia? Who would recognize your face and name? Jack Berne: 13:58 Yeah, I've been so fortunate. I've been to so many cool farms and the people out there, they're just so nice. They just let you straight into their homes, no question and they just show you around, feel like a lawn just as much on a farm than I do at school, which is also really cool. Podcast Host: 14:15 Yeah, there's obviously a huge learning experience from what you did and the journey that you've been on. And then as the skills that you learn the public speaking, can you talk a little bit about the public speaking because I know that for a lot of students, that is some students are just naturals at it. And they really just know exactly what to say. And some students have to learn through experience or get mentored. Did you have anybody helping you or mentoring you? Or did you just learn through some of the interviews, what worked and what didn't? Jack Berne: 14:43 Yeah, my mom is just, she was so amazing through this whole thing and just she literally took so much time out of her day to set this all up and get me prepared and was always looking out for me and she was just really teaching me that Good, but like public speaking thing, because she was a good speaker, but she wasn't an amazing public speaker, but she knew what I needed to do to be a good public speaker and she write me all those skills. And mom and dad were just always there to help. And it was just really amazing. Podcast Host: 15:16 Okay, so you've become a great public speaker, you've got the GoFundMe page up, it's starting to roll on now. And you've probably got like, how many schools involved within the first two to three months? Did it catch fire pretty quick? Or was it a bit of a slow burn? Jack Berne: 15:30 Ah, it was just went gangbusters just register, registering and like everyone wanted to be a part of it. It was just crazy. That it all just clicked into place. And there was like 800 schools, 500 schools and like 300 workplaces in a matter of weeks, which is amazing. Podcast Host: 15:50 And was the media the the main reason that that word spread? Or was it anything else that you did on your side to help the word spread? Or was it just mainly saying, like, I know, I'm gonna get the word out there, and the media is the best vehicle to help make this happen. Jack Berne: 16:02 We just we literally just took any offer we got in radio stations, TV shows, papers, whatever we could get, we would use for those first weeks. And it's so important, because you want to get your word out fast, and you just want to make it all happen. And I guess that's what we did really well. And really, what Podcast Host: 16:22 for the people who don't know, the main principle was that particularly at primary schools, it was like, you dress up as a farmer and you pay five bucks as a dress up day, you know, kind of like that gold coin donation, which is popular here in Australia, we're going to have listeners from around the world JAXA might say, you know, $5 is a bet the price of a coffee or something or there abouts did schools end up asking whether there was any curriculum attached to it or any kind of more information about the the drought or farmers or any kind of educational benefit that they could bring to the day? Jack Berne: 16:53 Yeah, we really like that's why I was watching this. We weren't just watching this, because it was actually our English like, curriculum, that term and we're learning we had to pick a subject that wasn't going too well. And you'd have to write narratives about it. And um, yeah, that really, I guess, helped because I was learning at school, still about the drought, which is, yeah, so you could, I still got to incorporate lots of like, I'm learning is still doing, like, the stuff that I love. Podcast Host: 17:24 Yeah, because I know, like, a lot of generally speaking, when a charity or a fundraising idea is is, you know, come up at school or comes up at school. And teachers are often thinking, Okay, sounds good. How can we make it work with the current curriculum? How can we really expand upon the idea and make it a learning or teaching point for students as well? So it really was a good idea to focus on Fiver for a Farmer, because obviously, students are learning about climate change and food cycle, whatever was it hit a lot of different learning points, right. So it was a really, you know, good one for schools to do. Jack Berne: 17:57 I guess as well, when people off, we kind of just kept adapting to that. And people kept asking, so we gave educational resources on our website that people could go straight to learn about, which is like really big key. And then also my school used it when we were learning about it, which was really effective. Podcast Host: 18:16 Right? So you started building out this website, which I've seen, and it looks fantastic. By the way, who helped you with that? Or was that something you started to do? or How did that come about? Because I know websites are like, not many, Year 5 or 4 kids knows what goes into building a website? Jack Berne: 18:33 Oh, my mom again. And like she's just so... that's her thing. She's really good at organizing, and she's still get got me to help, which is really cool as well. And I felt a part of it still. Yep. She said, What do you want to put in? And she just put it into my words and did it perfectly and we set up so many great things that I'm not just waking us, but other people could use in our website, which is Yeah, Podcast Host: 18:58 Yeah, I mean, like, no one's expecting you to go and do this all by yourself. But it's certainly helpful to have your mum there helping you out, did any of your other school mates help you out as well with a pretty keen to jump in and say they could help? Jack Berne: 19:10 Yeah, it was really cool how my home school banded together and especially in my close mates where it came to help me out and they were telling me all these facts when we're in school, and they're happy to be there, showing up at eight o'clock in the morning at school ready to be on live TV, and they're just doing all the right things. And they were just really cool and really helpful. So everyone wanted to be a part of it. Podcast Host: 19:33 When something is like a great idea, and really easy to understand a Fiver for a Farmer as I said, like it sums it up so perfectly in that slogan and logo, every everybody starts getting on board, especially if they know that it's going to have a direct impact and help people who are in need, which is awesome. What was the next level of things because obviously, like you started getting politicians involved, you started doing tours of rural Australia with the Prime Minister Scott Morrison, businesses started to be bigger donors in this program as well. How did that all come about? Because it's really like taking a fundraiser from that school level to a more kind of corporate and government level, which is, that's when a fundraiser can go from raising $100,000 to $1.8 million as you did. Jack Berne: 20:19 Yeah, I guess we just kept doing what we're doing. And slowly, learning how to get better at those skills kind of took us further and further and figuring out like, that we do, we just always said, Yes. And I've soon figured out that isn't going to be good for the charity isn't going to affect the charity. And we use that really well. And we figured out how to use the right tools to get the word out even more. So going all social media or being on Facebook, Instagram, everything was a lot better, because there's like, not everyone just uses one social media. And I guess in today's day and age, there's so many tools that you can use. And I guess, if I tried to do this 50 years ago, it would not work, you know, it'd be a lot harder. But that's the cool thing about today. We've got so much technology to get through so many ideas. And you can just be watching YouTube videos on you how to do things. Podcast Host: 21:15 Did people mentor you through that process? Or was that your mum helping you kind of saying like, Hey, we need a bit of a strategy here and like the daily vlogs, and you know what to post to Instagram, what to post to Facebook, like that's an entire like, you pretty much build out an entire marketing and comms strategy very, very quickly, to raise awareness of Fiver for a Farmer. So who was helping you along the way? Or was it just something that you kind of figured out? Jack Berne: 21:40 Yeah, definitely mom again. But also, we're still going on TV. And just given I got kept giving those little tips by the host. And I'm Ben Fordham was one of my big mentors. And he still is now and helping out a lot. He was really good, because he just knew that what the situation was and who needed help. And he just knew perfectly how to help me. And he just showed me the ropes. And it was really cool, because he was probably one of the big mentors. And I got to go on his show quite a bit, which is awesome. But yeah, my family helped me and everyone, everyone helped me. I had so many mentors at that time, and I just learned those little skills, and I just kept calm. Podcast Host: 22:22 And for the listeners who might not know who Ben is, can you just explain a little bit about who Ben Fordham is to you? Jack Berne: 22:28 Um, so he's a radio host. And he does lots of great things in the community. And he's really cool. He's on TV quite a bit. But um, yeah, he's just a great guy. He's just so kind and caring. Podcast Host: 22:42 Fantastic. So Where to now for the charity. It's been going for three years. And I'm going to guess you've done some great projects in rural Australia, like, are you also directing where the money goes? Or how is that money being distributed at this point? Jack Berne: 22:57 So at this point, recently, we just turned into our own charity, which is really cool. We're using big charities because they just knew how to do everything, because it's just so hard to be a non for profit and not be a registered charity. So we picked Rural Aid and Drought Angels. They're two amazing charities. And they did tell us where the money goes. And it was really cool to see because they brought me out there and showed me this is where this is and is really awesome. But now being like my own charity, I guess, I've got more control over the money, which is great, because I can do so much more things with it. But also keeping those ties with the worldwide and Drought Angels, because they just know what's best. And it's going to be pretty cool to keep progressing and getting better and better with this whole charity thing. Podcast Host: 23:46 So yeah, what kind of projects are you focusing on? What were you looking to send the money to? What are your priorities? Jack Berne: 23:53 I definitely just want to keep doing what I'm doing now. Yeah, but also just keep making ideas and getting new thing started. Because I can't I can't go with this forever. But I do want to make a change in people's lives. And I'm sure, eventually I'm going to think of something new. And I'm going to keep doing this. But I just want to make a make a change in the world. And right now I'm just doing what I'm doing and just walking up. Podcast Host: 24:18 Great. So is there anyone else in the team now? Is it still just you and mainly your mom helping out? Jack Berne: 24:22 Yeah, so um, when creating the charity, we had to pick like three main people who could help out and my mom and then I couldn't pick any more family members. So I picked out really close friends, Lara Hoyles and Renee Wright and they just were also really good at this stuff. And they were always ready to help and just, I guess they helped us even more and we had so many amazing people along the way helping us but those three are like the warriors of the charity and they Podcast Host: 24:54 Are those other two people, students or are they adults? Jack Berne: 24:58 They're adults. My mum's really good friends with them. And we always catch up and talk about it. But, yeah, we're all really close. Podcast Host: 25:06 Right? And can I ask a little bit more about what it was like to spend time with the Prime Minister of Australia? Like, how did that come about? Jack Berne: 25:12 It was so cool, because I mean, no one really gets to make the Prime Minister. It's such a like, I think he's the Prime Minister. Yeah, as far as I'm Ben Fordham, show the radio host. And he said, we've got Scott on the line, just saying Scott. And it was Scott Morrison and I, because I said, I want to talk to Mr. Morrison and just say, like, oh, how cool VCs and I really wanted to just try and keep making changes. And if they helped out, it was going to be really cool. So um, he invited me on to his private plane, and we went on a rule tour up to Queensland and Dolby and I got to see so many amazing farms. And it was just such a cool experience. And I'm only 12 when I got to go and Scott person's private plane, I got to keep doing what I love. And I got to keep going out on farms, it was just the perfect thing. Podcast Host: 26:06 So basically, Ben Fordham kind of helped set that up. And then the Morrison team reached out to you and said, Hey, not sure what you're doing for the next couple of days. But we're going to do a tour of some farms up in Queensland, New South Wales, would you like to tag along? And because I know that you did a lot of vlogging. During that time, your media presence, I thought was fantastic. And this is like a something that I want to you know, have you explore a little bit more for students like, what makes a good vlog and why you decided to do video updates, rather than just post, like a photo and captions, that kind of thing? So we'll talk about that in a sec. But is that how that whole thing came about? Like Scott Morrison's team said, "Hey, what are you doing for the next couple of days?" Jack Berne: 26:46 Yep, out of the blue. Like, yep, come with me. It's gonna be really fun. And I guess, are you saying for about media wise, I personally, I'm not a big radar. So videos always good because you can listen to it. And of course, we still write the caption and say what's happening, but I love videos, and I think videoing things and keeping everyone in the loop is really good. Because it just makes you interested. Podcast Host: 27:14 Were you doing like one take wonder where you just like, yep, press record, you know, one take getting it out? Jack Berne: 27:20 I guess at the start, I just wanted to keep retaking it, but I can't deal with listening to myself. And I just like that made it worse, so it was just like, I just said, Mom, is it good? And she would say yes. And then I'm just like, alright, that's it, we just got to go with it. And if people didn't like what we were doing, I guess we just have to go again. But most of the people were really loving what we're doing, which is awesome. Podcast Host: 27:45 I think that's such a good lesson for students that once you've got the the passion, as you said, like you know what you were talking about, you know what you wanted to say? You were keeping it down to like 20 to 30 seconds, a lot of your vlogs. And you were just pressing said you were getting it out there as soon as you possibly could, which is fantastic. So really recommend students to check out Jack's videos, well, what's the website that they can go to to check out those videos? Jack Berne: 28:09 It's a fiverforafarmer.com.au Podcast Host: 28:12 fiverforafarmer.com.au, fantastic. So wherever you are around the world, check that out. Because it was a great example of a student just knowing how to use a great way to connect with students and adults and whoever else was was looking at the website and watching your updates. Where to now like Yeah, you've got the charity set up. You've got a few people helping you you going into year seven, is that right? Yeah. Yep. So going into high school? What happens to the charity over the next 6 months, a year or thereabouts? Do you know? Jack Berne: 28:41 I don't really know. But I guess I just keep doing this. And I mean, I love what I'm doing right now. And it's such a cool thing. And I don't know why I stopped. But if I do I know. Mom and Dad are really proud of me. And they've always said, if you ever want to stop, that's fine. But yeah, right now I love what I'm doing. And it's so much fun. So I'm not giving it up for a while, but I'm just living in the present, Podcast Host: 29:06 What do you think you would still want to learn from it and the experience? Jack Berne: 29:09 Just like, remembering the skills that I've learned. And I guess, over this time, so many people have reached out and like right now, such a tough time, you can't just keep donating. So buying Australian produce, which is from our backyard, it goes straight back towards them. So that was I guess another way that I'm going to try and keep going the charity for a little bit longer. But the skills that I've learned right now I just want to keep progressing and getting better and better. Podcast Host: 29:37 And how does this change your life? I mean, because not many nine year olds or 10 year olds have a life defining experience. But inevitably, this has defined at least your path for the next you know, six years or even more, up until you finish high school. Everyone will know. Jack Berne there's the Fiver for a Farmer guy, you know, so it It's become that synonymous with you is this charity. How else do you think it's changed your life? Jack Berne: 30:06 I'm a completely different person. It's crazy. Like when I think, and see things from 3 years ago, I've changed so much. And I guess the lesson that I've learned over this whole time is just take risks, because it ends up making you a better person. And if you get knocked down, just get back up again. And you've just got to keep going and life just keep rolling. And don't look back. Podcast Host: 30:30 Yeah, absolutely. Did you ever think you'd raise $1.8 million or thereabouts? Jack Berne: 30:35 No, not at all. Podcast Host: 30:36 Yeah, that's awesome. And how can students particularly here in Australia, but if they're not in Australia, or if they're elsewhere around the world, how can they potentially get involved in, you know, raising money for Fiver for a Farmer? Jack Berne: 30:46 I'm just saying to your school, why don't we dress up and bring in $5. Or if you don't want to bring in $5, eat Aussie produce, maybe do a day of just Aussie produce, and you get your whole school to eat some nice grapes, like grapes are in season right now. Eat some Aussie grapes and have a sausage sizzle. And just yeah... Podcast Host: 31:08 Yeah, so there's a lot of ways to get involved. And I think for students around the world as well, it's that whole kind of idea of, you know, a great slogan, a great logo, a really good cause. getting out there and having that media personality and really creating a story, but just taking a risk and believing in it. Right? You know, like, You sent the email that night, you didn't really know exactly what was going to come of it. But hey, it took flight. And he you are. And I think it's it's also interesting as well, jack, you know, I've got a cousin who lives up in Sydney, as well as not too far from you, actually. And he's your age is 13. And he's like, I don't really, you know, he's like, I don't really know what I want to do just yet. And he's not really sure about where the passions and interests are. What would you say for students who aren't really sure what their passions and interests are? Because obviously, like, you saw that story about the farmers and you like latched on to that, and you're saying, I'm going to make a difference in that area? I think a lot of students are kind of, you know, looking for that moment in their life where they see something like that. And they say, Yes, I'm going to make a difference. What would be your advice to those students who are kind of like, not really sure where their passions or interests lie? Jack Berne: 32:16 You, you've got to try new things every day. And you got to learn stuff every day. And I think if you have that kendu attitude, and you want to do this, and you are very passionate about it, that's that's your thing. And if you have one or two things, you can pick one and if it doesn't go well, you go to the other, that's a great problem to have, if you've got too many passions is picking one and then go into the other end if you if you don't know what to do. Just keep trying because it will come. Podcast Host: 32:48 Fantastic. And what do you think you're going to do in the future? Like is there I don't really like asking the question, what are you going to be when you grow up? But because I think that's a question where the answer changes all the time. But is there anything that you know, based on your experiences, because you've had so many like amazing experiences in just you know, 30 years, it does help you make a decision about or give you some ideas about what you might want to do beyond school. Jack Berne: 33:14 Um, I just want to make a difference in the world and just be kind to everyone, because my goal every day is just to make one person smile, because the would be so cool. If that happened every day and everyone did one good deed, it would just be such a great place to live in. And I guess my goal is just to make a difference and make sure people have a good day. Podcast Host: 33:38 And you're also part of ASE now as well, the Australian School of Entrepreneurship. Do you want to talk a little bit about that in your role there? Jack Berne: 33:44 Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, being 12. And they're all a lot older than me, I wouldn't believe that I'd be in it. But I am, which is really cool. And I guess I have that role as when they're trying to make effects on kids in school. I'm there. I'm in school, and I'm going through it right now. And it's really cool to be a part of it. It's just amazing. Podcast Host: 34:07 Yeah, so for those students who are in Australia, the Australian School of entrepreneurship, started by Taj Pabari up there in Queensland is a fantastic organization. Definitely worth checking out. And of course, Crimson Education helps students do exactly that as well. So we help students get into the world's best universities jack, we help students get into places like Harvard and Oxford and those kind of universities, and like having awesome co curricular profiles like yours, like you've already got an amazing co curricular extracurricular profile. And that's the kind of thing that really matters if you're applying to international university. So perhaps something to think about if you're looking at potentially studying at some of those top top universities overseas. Jack Berne: 34:44 Yeah, sounds awesome. Podcast Host: 34:46 Yeah, that does sound pretty awesome. All right. Well, is there any other way that people can get in touch with you or kind of follow along with a Fiver for a Farmer is there any like social media handles they should go to? You've already given the website? Maybe you want to give that one again? Jack Berne: 34:58 Yeah, a fiverforafarmer.com.au you and now Instagrams, a Fiver for a Farmer and so is our Facebook. And if you reach out to me, I'll try to respond to you. I'm pretty good with responding. Podcast Host: 35:10 Perfect. Well, thanks so much for joining us on Top of the Class Jack. It's been awesome chatting with you. And you know, as I said, like I've been following your journey for quite some time. So it's great to finally meet you in person. And I know our listeners will certainly help you out as best they can as well. Jack Berne: 35:22 Yes, same to you, have a great day? Thanks for having me. Podcast Host: 35:26 No worries. Great to have you on the show. Talk to you later.

Ep #2 Medical Research in High School and Student-Run Organisations

🗓 OCT 31, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host: 0:17 Hello there. Thank you so much for joining me on the Top of the Class podcast. I'm your host, Alex cork and today, I'm delighted to be chatting with Ellen Xu. Ellen shares with us how she became so involved in medical research at just 14 years of age. We also talk about how she became a finalist at a world leading science fair, and her role as a global director of a student run organization. Let's chat with Ellen Xu. Hi Ellen, welcome to the Top of the Class podcast, it's fantastic to have you on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, maybe start off with your name, your age, and where you are calling in from today? Ellen: 0:58 Awesome. Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. It's good to be on Top of the Class and be able to talk about experiences and my life. I'm a 15 year old from San Diego, California. And I'm really passionate about machine learning about cybersecurity and overall trying to make a social impact using technology. So I'm looking forward to be discussing some things to other students around the world today. Podcast Host: 1:25 That's fantastic. It's such an interesting thing to hear that a 15 year old is interested in machine learning cyber security and social impact. Where did it all start? You know, how come you haven't followed, I guess, the normal trajectory of the majority of 15 year olds? And how come you've gone so far beyond that? Ellen: 1:43 Yeah. So I think one of the things that got me started, especially into more technology related aspects of my experiences have really done a lot in shaping my activities and what I enjoy doing. So one example was when I first was getting into AI or not even getting into AI yet. But one thing that propelled me to start on a personal project of mine was actually an experience with my younger sister. Because when she was three years old, she had this rare heart disease called Kawasaki disease. It's a pretty rare heart disease, but it is the number one heart disease in children in the US and Japan. So when my sister got that disease, she was actually the first time I bought at the hospital, she had fear and read I a few of the common symptoms of Kawasaki disease. But because it is quite rare, and it's quite hard to diagnose because of its wide range of symptoms. She was actually miss diagnosed with the flu, the first time I brought her to the hospital, right. And she was successfully diagnosed the second time, which is really great and treated at one of the best Kawasaki disease centers out here in San Diego. So I'm really thankful for that. But you know, these problems that I haven't seen, you know, the misdiagnosis and the lack of awareness for Kawasaki disease that kind of sparked me to go on to this journey where I wanted to try to find ways where I could possibly help and give back to the doctors who helped save my sister's life. And also the other Kawasaki disease community and other families who might be also going through similar things, or later on my encounter this as well. So that's what got me started into kind of thinking about ways. And personally, I believe that ideas and solutions always have to come from a problem. So yeah, I'm really glad that I was presented with this type of problem. Because without it, I wouldn't have really gotten to where I am today. And I wouldn't have started on my project to try and diagnose Kawasaki disease. Podcast Host: 3:32 How old were you when all this happened? Ellen: 3:35 I was five years old when my sister got Kawasaki disease. But I recently started on this project last year. So when I was 14. Podcast Host: 3:43 Okay, and when you're 14, and you're wanting to make a change in Kawasaki disease, how do you go about it? You know, what, where do you start? I mean, there must be some kind of thought process that says, 'Okay, I want to make a difference in Kawasaki disease. It was misdiagnosed. I know, there's a problem that people are facing. And it's not just me. I know, other people in the community who also have this issue as well.' There might be I guess, that voice inside of your head that says, 'but you're 14 years old, what are you doing?' How do you overcome that voice in your head that says you're only 14? This is a cool idea. And yes, it's a problem. But what can you do as a 14 year old?' And how do you I guess overcome that voice and continue doing what you're doing anyway? Ellen: 4:25 Yeah, definitely. I think that voice I mentioned stuff is something that exists in many of the minds of youth and myself included. I definitely felt that since Kawasaki disease and diagnosis such a big problem. It was hard for me to try to find ways that I could help make a difference given my age and I haven't gone to college yet or haven't really had too much of an extensive education within the medical field. So really was a really big challenge getting started in order to try to find ways where I could actually help as a student and as someone who was younger than other doctors. There are other professionals who are doing a lot more in the field. But I think I was trying to just develop this proof of concept, you know that maybe if I tried it out that if something did end up working, it would be kind of a proof of concept for me to go for it. So I decided to look into different ways to try to solve the problem. And investigating these problems, I was just thinking, maybe I'll just try something new. Especially because if my interests aligned with what I was doing, I just thought that maybe naturally, I'd be able to create something that wasn't there before, and maybe would someday be able to help people. So I think in order to overcome that mindset, it's just the thought of maybe I can try something new. And just, you know, try it out. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay. You can always pivot and go to a new idea. But if you have something that you're interested in pursuing, then just giving it a try, even if it's just for a month or two, just doing literary research, trying to see ways in which you can make a difference. It could lead to something big that you didn't anticipate. So I really believe in the idea of just being able to explore different fields, and being able to try new things, even when it doesn't seem like it's possible to make a difference. Podcast Host: 6:08 Take me to that moment, right, where you're sitting in front of your laptop, and you're saying, Okay, I'm going to start this journey to figure out how I might be able to make a difference. And you've overcome that little voice in your head that says, You're only 14, and you're you they go, Yeah, no, I can make a difference here. And I believe that I've got the experience of the problem to know what to do next. What do you search? What do you I know, it sounds like a basic question. But I you know, I go back to a scene from a movie that you may have seen The Truman Show with Jim Carrey. I don't know if you've seen that. But he's like in class, and he says, I want to be an explorer, and then the teacher because they're trying to keep him contained in that little bubble. The teacher says, oh, but the world's already been explored. And you're like, Oh, okay. Well, you know, like, it must be kind of thinking, I've got this idea. But how do I know that other people aren't already working on it, or other people aren't already, you know, saying that that's a dead end and have gone back and fixed it or or even solved that problem since your sister was diagnosed when you were five, or it had that insult when you were five, and now you're 14 and nine years have gone past? Like, how do you figure out where to start focusing your attention? Ellen: 7:15 Yeah, I think that's something that I definitely explore a lot spent a long time investigating, and because like you mentioned, you know, there's a lot of people that are probably working on this problem. Yeah, it's not just you and your idea might not be actually something that's, maybe it's already been solved or might not solve the problem. So I feel like you meant I was sitting in front my computer for a long time, I did a lot of research into the problem of Kawasaki disease first, and like, how many cases are misdiagnosis year? Why gets misdiagnosed. And when I was researching more into the more technical side, so I guess I was looking into how, since when I was looking to Kawasaki disease and how it's normally diagnosed, I didn't see a lot about how technology and more recent emerging technologies have been used. So it was something that I was both interested in, since I am like interested in the technical aspect. And I realized that most of these diagnoses are just based off of the intuition of the doctor. So the doctor being able to actually recognize these symptoms, which in a lot of cases can be hard, because the symptoms aren't that unique in of themselves. But the combination of them and specific signs that kind of take the doctor off, is what really leads to the early diagnosis. So I think after I was searching up, and I was realizing that there's not a lot of technical aspects, and not a lot of integrations within these two fields. Yeah. Now I've been used health further the diagnosis. And I was, as I was thinking about this, I think, recently, there's been a huge boom in like artificial intelligence, and this sort of technology in helping for image classification, medical imaging, or just diagnosis in general. So I started finding this kind of intersection, or this kind of path where these two separate fields could possibly intersect to find a solution to this problem. And that's where I kind of was like, wait, this is a little bit interesting. And I just started exploring that field a little bit more and trying to develop a project based on these two very distinct and separate ideas. Podcast Host: 9:19 Okay, so you've got that kind of interest and background in AI and you're interested in emerging technologies. You have the problem that, you know, you'd faced as a five year old where your sister is diagnosed or misdiagnosed with Kawasaki disease. And then you're putting these two things together and saying, 'Hey, there might be something here.' Did you look around and see if anybody else was doing that or was working on something similar? Did you try and speak to doctors or people who were, I guess other experts in the Kawasaki disease field? Ellen: 9:51 Yeah, so I did do some research. I didn't find anything but I didn't start talking to doctors until a little bit later. Okay, until I already did. I kind of my algorithm and kind of had an idea because in the beginning, I wasn't really sure if it would actually work out. Or if I was ending, I'm going to, I'm going to end up pursuing it. Because like you mentioned, I'm a student, and I wasn't sure if this would actually be something that was feasible or would work out. But later down the line after I already had my algorithm, and, like I mentioned, like the proof of concept that ended up working out pretty well, because I saw that the machine learning algorithm was actually producing results of high accuracy, that I started thinking, maybe this is something that could possibly help doctors or could possibly be implemented into hospitals, or just on an app that parent could use in order to check if their child had Kawasaki disease, or what probability their child with having Kawasaki disease instead of reaching out to doctors, but that was a little bit later. Podcast Host: 10:49 Right. Okay, so one does back a little bit, Ellen, because you kind of casually dropped in there that you've created this algorithm. Now, I'm not the most scientific guy in the world. But yet take us through, I guess, how does a 14 year old at that you were 14 or 15? At the time, you were young ish? Okay, 14 at the time, you know, the concept or that, you know, idea that a 14 year old would go and create an algorithm to help diagnose Kawasaki disease. If you said to most students, roughly how old would be someone who creates an algorithm today? That'd be like, oh, probably someone in their 30s or something. So talk us through, I guess the process and what you needed to know to start an algorithm? And was that knowledge covered by school? Or was that something that you have to self learn? Ellen: 11:33 Yeah, so to start off with the second question, I think, a lot of things that schools teachers are really useful to get a foundation. But ultimately, if you want to start something of your own, or go into a field that isn't taught in school, it's mainly all on your own self accord. Yeah, you have to go out of your way to try to find these resources, learn things on your own, that may or may not be taught in your school. So I think that's the first thing that I did was I tried to find resources online, and other communities that maybe I could look into, in order to try and just get started into machine learning. Since in the beginning, I actually didn't have much knowledge of artificial intelligence or machine learning, it was just something that I was interested in. And that I thought maybe could be a good way to help try and combat this problem. But I initially didn't have too much of a background in it as well. So cool. If other students are listening to this, I definitely feel that you don't have to have a really big background. And you don't have to already know what to do or where to get started. But there's definitely, especially with technology, a lot of available resources online that anyone could just look at, for example, there's a lot of machine learning courses that are free from some of the top universities around the world and anyone regardless of their age, or where they are on their path to life could just watch these videos and watch these courses and be able to learn something new. Podcast Host: 12:54 So which ones did you do? Just out of interest? Ellen: 12:56 Yeah, I started off just reading documentation. So I really like Jason brown Lee's machine learning blogs. I also took a course on Coursera by Andrew, and Andrew mg and not really sure to pronounce his last name, but he's also a really prominent figure in AI. And he developed a free machine learning course on Coursera as well. So I found that was really interesting. Podcast Host: 13:24 Yes, so Okay, so you put in all this time and effort into the machine learning? Is there any kind of resource already people that you're bouncing ideas off at school? Or who are you kind of chatting to during this experience? You know, you said you, you kind of sussed out a community, I think like a group of people who are on the same journey is pretty important to kind of keep going through the challenges, because then you can at least say, hey, look, anybody else had these challenges? And people will be like, yeah, I have in the US. Okay, great. I don't feel so alone through this journey. It Was there anyone like that for you? Whether it was in the physical school or online? Ellen: 13:59 Yeah, I definitely found a lot of communities online that I found helpful when having questions or having problems. There's actually I didn't realize this when I just got started. But there's such a huge like group of people that are online and in these forums, and communities that are working to solve these problems. And if you have any questions, a lot of the times if you find a good thread or forum, there'll be a lot of people that are willing to help answer. So I think there's a I don't have a specific community that I went to, but for different problems, I was able to find separate communities that were able to zone in on that specific problem. I think TensorFlow has a lot of good forums and communities. And there's probably an abundance of others out there that I haven't even touched on yet. But I definitely found the range of people out there in the world who are also working on AI or machine learning. They're all super helpful. And being able to look at those resources and as a student be able to learn from them was a really great resource. Podcast Host: 14:57 And one of the things that I'm interested in as well is I'm sure a lot of students are sitting here listening to this thinking, that sounds like a fair chunk of time out of a regular school week that you're dedicating to this Kawasaki disease research, machine learning doing these courses. Can you give us a little bit of a sense of the timeline that you went through? And, you know, roughly, I guess, how much of your week were you dedicated to these kinds of things whilst also managing your work at school? Ellen: 15:27 Yeah, so that's one of the things I was learning as I was going as well, because time is limited. And as a student, you know, you're at school eight hours every weekday, and that's already a large chunk of your time. Plus your homework plus your extracurriculars and your clubs, it can pile up to a long, long time. And if you want to start a side project, that's another big investment of time that you're looking at. So I think my timeline was I started around in May, I believe. And then I continued that until now, it's been about one and a half years already. And I think it's definitely been a lot of time that I've spent and invested into it. I think I've spent, on average, at least 20 hours a week working on this project. Wow. Yeah, almost like every day, I go after doing homework or extracurriculars I go towards trying to improve the project. And you know, trying to do the best I can, with the time that I have. And time management, one of the most important things I've learned out of that, since it's really important to be able to set goals for yourself and know what things to prioritize and not prioritize. Bardot's ation was a problem that I had at first, because I always had trouble balancing out all my extracurriculars, and still having time to work on this project that I really enjoy. But I found that being able to just know what in a day, how much time you have, and what you're going to spend that time on is something that's really important in print, planning out your schedule, and being able to say, Okay, I'm going to have two hours for today for homework. And that leaves me, let's say, two hours of time for this project. I think just being honest to yourself about the time you have, and being able to plan that out is something that's a really important skill. Podcast Host: 17:13 Yeah, yeah. And I think it's interesting to look at a project that lasts that long, right? You're not trying to achieve this in a term or something like that, or a semester. I think a lot of students when they think of like a long term project, because a lot of like, your medius projects at school will still only go for a couple of weeks, right? They'll be like, Oh, this is the project and it's due, you know, next month, and you're like, Oh, my God, that's a big project, right? But you've kind of set yourself this goal, like there's no necessarily like, there's there's no index, right? You're just kind of saying, I'm going to keep working on this. It's going to continue to evolve and change. And we're gonna learn more a bit more about it as I go. But I'm not necessarily needing to submit it to anyone, you're just kind of like learning as you go, right? And it says that kind of experience of, you know, how does it fit into my week, I've got a busy week, I can do a little bit less on the project this week, or I've got a bit of free time, I can spend a little bit more time on it and kind of bouncing it that way. Ellen: 18:06 Yeah, I think, since side projects and spending a lot longer than projects that many people might be doing at schools. And the thing about them is that they don't have any hard deadlines. So you really have to be motivating yourself. And you have to be able to stay interested and stay learning and stay working on your project. Because there really is no person to tell you, oh, you have to finish this part of your project design, or like a teacher to be like, I want you to get this submitted before the deadline like this many weeks early or something like that. It's really all about you trying to set goals for yourself and trying to motivate yourself to continue working on a project even when no one's like right behind you telling you what's the next step? What time do you need to finish this by? It's really about making sure that you are continually learning and that you have your own management of your long term goals and short term goals and being able to meet that recurrently. Podcast Host: 19:04 So where does your motivation come from? For a year and a half? Now, you've been working on this project without a deadline? Obviously, I'm sure you can see the benefit of this and you know, the experience of your sister, of course. But there must be weeks where you're like, oh, what am I doing? Yeah, I guess like how do you get through those weights? And and what kind of mindset as enabled you to continue working on this for a year and a half? Knowing that it weren't necessarily like, you know, I get a you know, in addition to your grades at the end of school, like it won't necessarily help you get a better si t score or whatever it might be. So yeah, can you take us through against that? motivation and mindset that you have? Ellen: 19:45 Yeah, so I think, um, to answer that question, I think my underlying motivation is partially due to because of my interest in actually solving this problem. I think many people want to try to come up with ideas. They probably just Draw from their own experiences as well. And I think this specific experience because it was really close to me, and because I know that the reason why my sister is still healthy and active today is because of the doctors were able to diagnose her. And I am also involved in the KD foundation of the Kawasaki disease foundation. So I'm able to see this community of Kawasaki disease families and survivors who also believe in the same cause, you know, who are working every day to find ways to support other Kawasaki disease patients, or support doctors and hospitals as well who are working on this. So I think that is one way I'm motivated as well, just seeing others who are also trying to fight for the same cause. And it's really a cause I care a lot about because it has impacted me so closely. And I know that I have a lot to thank these doctors who actually saved my sister's life. But there are certain weeks I'm like, this project, like how am I actually going to get this to be in use? You know, because the medical field has so many regulations and everything. And there are definitely times where I felt that maybe it's a lot harder to make a difference. And is it even possible? So I think the main thing that I've been focusing on is just trying to break things down into smaller goals or smaller things I can try to accomplish. So a lot of times I'm like, okay, maybe I probably have to get this up to like 99% accuracy, right? Like, it's never gonna get used. But if I'm at, say, like 80%, then I'll say, Okay, this week, let's try to get it up to 85%. And just trying to make things a little bit smaller just for now and building that up and bit by bit. And if I do reach 85%, okay, let's go for 90% maybe in the next two weeks, and just try to keep myself motivated that way. And whenever I meet a small goal, it feels like okay, I've done something I've gotten better, even if it's just a little bit, but it shows that maybe it is possible in the long term. If I keep working on this. Podcast Host: 21:56 Yeah. What are your friends say? When when they like, "Hey, Ellen, like, what are you doing this week?" And you're like, "Hey, I'm just working on like the machine learning algorithm to help my Kawasaki Disease Research app." Are they like, what are you doing? Like, just be a 15 year old? Or are they like, yeah, that's awesome. You go do your thing, like, what's the kind of response you get from your friends around you? Ellen: 22:15 Yeah, so I think a lot of my friends are like, wow, you're doing that, that's really cool. But I do try to find time to spend outside of the project. So I know that this is a really big part of my life and like my extracurriculars, because I do spend a lot of time on this, I do really enjoy working on this. But I do, make sure to also leave time for myself just to you know, via normal routine here, and then go spend time with my friends. And sometimes take those breaks, because I don't think it's possible for anyone to be working, you know, 24 seven, and those types of brakes, just hanging out with my friends or family are really necessary for me to you know, just take a step aside. And when I come back to it, maybe I even have more motivation or a better perspective on some problem that I was working on in the project itself. Podcast Host: 22:59 Yeah, that's super important to take that time away from your project and to get hat me time, which I think is a esome. One more question on t e Kawasaki disease research b fore we get into Elevate the F ture, which I know you do some g eat work in as well. Do you s e yourself first and foremost a a researcher or a student or a podcast host? Like when people s y, hey, Ellenelon, tell us ab ut yourself? Like what do you ay first? What's the first th ng that comes to mind? Beca se obviously, like your bet you re spending 20 hours a week o a considerable amount of time on this project. It may even ou know, get to that point wh re you know, most people your ge would be like, I'm a stude t. That's me, I'm a student. Rig t. And and I think that's someti es a limiting, not necessar ly limiting. But I think that t at can kind of box students i to just absorbing information, nd not necessarily, you kn w, pursuing information as you h ve obviously done in your carr er psyche disease research. So 'd love to kind of just tap i to that psyche of yours and just be like, when people say Who re you? What do you do? Is it Kawasaki disease research i a student podcast, those Elev te the Future you got a lot go ng on. But do you just like 'm just me, give us a little bit of an insig Ellen: 24:15 Yeah, so I definitely think that, like you mentioned, of course, I am a student. Of course many people around the world and probably those who are listening to podcasts are students. Of course, we're always learning things at school, or I guess that's what a student implies that you're always learning something and you're still growing as a person. But for me, when I think about all these things that I do, and all these things that I'm interested in, there's a via ride variety of things. And it's hard to you know, put a word on that but I think I would want to think of myself as more of an innovator you know, rather than more of a student perspective because although I am learning I am growing and I really appreciate all that growth and knowledge that I'm always getting every day. I also appreciate diversity. of creating something new that's maybe outside of school that's not limited by the word of the title of student, you know, and all these activities, I think they all stem from some sort of idea and some sort of sort of innovative mindset. Like I want to try something new. I want to explore this field that I've never gone into where I want to try to solve this problem. That might be way too big for me, but I still want to give it a try or think of new ideas or just overall start something new that wasn't there before. Podcast Host: 25:32 Yeah, no, that's awesome. I think that innovator tag is is such a cool thing. And it can go in any direction, right? It's super flexible. But it basically says like I'm going to create, I'm not just going to absorb, I'm going to make a difference and be able to contribute to whatever field I want to, you know, contribute to, which is really cool. Well, yeah, I mean, that I'm sure we could talk about the Kawasaki disease research, and you work on this for a lot longer. But I'm really interested in your work and Elevate the Future. Can you talk to us a little bit about what Elevate the Future is? And what does it do? Ellen: 26:04 Yeah, so Elevate The Future an educational nonprofit. And the main goal of Elevate the Future is to try to provide quality education, mainly in computer science and business, to students around the world are students of any background, or really anyone who has a drive and willingness to learn about these fields, I think the main root of how Elevate the Future was founded. I'm not one of the founders, but I have taken a pretty main role and Elevate the Future. And the founding basis, because a lot of students, like myself included, have realized that there's a lot of things that you don't learn in schools, like you're into with some disease, we might not learn machine learning or computer science or business. And I think we realized there's kind of a gap in the educational system where as the world is growing, and as technology is growing, schools might not be teaching some things that are becoming increasingly more important. So like technology, and business are two important fields or skills that a student might want to learn about. But they might not have the opportunities to go learn this in school. And not a lot of high schools have computer science curriculum. So it's not until maybe college students might learn about this despite their interest. So I think just providing students with opportunities and saying that, yeah, you can learn about these things outside of school, you can still pursue these and try to discover your passions early on, is something that we're always trying to promote within students themselves. Podcast Host: 27:31 And so what's your role there at Elevate The Future? Ellen: 27:34 Yeah, so I recently became global director for Elevate The Future. Previously, I was a global ambassador. And I was working with other chapters around the world and getting set up with their own events being able to impact their local communities. And as a global director, I help try to come up with these events, these global ways that we can help impact people from all around the world, from all across our 43 chapters. And coming up with these events, such as maybe hackathons or entrepreneurship pitch fest are these kind of big things and organizing organization wide events that aren't just limited to one chapter one country, we're really looking for things that can help people from all ages all around the world and making these types of opportunities free and accessible. Podcast Host: 28:22 That's so good. And I'm hoping there's a couple of chapters here in Australia, where I'm from, I know they're probably elsewhere around the world. But in terms of why you joined and why you ended up getting so involved, you know, from a global ambassador to global director, when you've got a lot of other things going on, what was your decision process in in that way? Because I'm always fascinated by you know, high achieving students who have the ability to do a whole lot of different things, you know, extracurriculars, or their own research projects, or this opportunity, that opportunity, this competition, that competition, but yet choose to invest a considerable amount of time into one or two particular things. So what was your decision process to make, you know, Elevate the Future, such a big part of your waken in be part of your life? Ellen: 29:10 One quick thing, we actually do have a chapter and Elevate The Future Australia. So that's really amazing. But yeah, my, I guess, in the beginning, when I was reached out to vote by one of the co founders, and he was like, Hey, I have I just started an organization. And we're trying to teach students Business and Computer Science and provide them with these opportunities through initiatives that promote their passions, and maybe allow them to discover their interest within these two fields, because they might not get exposure to this until very later in their lives. And I think my initial thought was Business and Computer Science. And this just happens to be two fields that I'm also really interested in. Yeah, so computer science. I've always loved coding and, you know, with my AI project, as well, a computer science company A really big part of my extracurriculars. But I also love to explore the world of business and entrepreneurship. And you know, the idea of being an innovator and creating your own ideas is something that resonates a lot with me, that's part of the entrepreneurship mindset, and really something that's part of business. So I think, at first, when he presented me with this idea, and this brief overview of Elevate the Future was all about, I was interested in the fact that they were trying to find the connection or intersection between these two fields that I was also really interested in. And not only that, but try to spread that interest to other students who might not have other opportunities. And I remember one time when I was in elementary school, I went to Inner Mongolia, and I stayed there for I think, a week or two weeks. But I was able to stay with this girl who was in high school, and she really wanted to go to college, and no one in her village had ever gone to college before. And she didn't have the resources or opportunities to do that. When I was in elementary school, I've experienced that, you know, these students have so much to learn, and they really want to learn, but they might not have these opportunities that I might have growing up or other people might have growing up. But that's something that really reminded me of that experience when I was younger. And something that a problem that I've witnessed where students could have so much passion, so much potential, might not have a way to explore those fields or get exposed really early so that they can possibly go into it later on if they want to. And at that point, I joined Elevate the Future just in the beginning as a chapter president. So I started my own chapter in San Diego. And I tried to just impact as many people as possible. So whether it was division, Title One schools who might not have a lot of funding for these types of curriculum, or areas where students might not have the may not be enough financial standing to actually pay for expensive courses. I wanted to try to reach out to these students and provide them with a way to learn through our classes and learn things that they wouldn't learn in school. Podcast Host: 32:09 When you're looking at an organization to join, was it an important thing that it was a student run organization? Because what does that say to you as a student, when you're looking at an organization, you could join? I think, you know, there's heaps of existing organizations that might achieve or have similar goals, maybe not exactly that intersection of business and, and computer science, but similar ish goals, but they might be an existing foundation and be run by an association or you know, all those kinds of things. So when you look at a student run organization, what does that do to your, you know, decision making process and deciding, yeah, this is this is where I want to spend a fair bit of my time. Ellen: 32:50 Yeah, I think the idea of student run is something that I really liked when I was looking at his organization as well. Because I think as high schoolers, there's some things that we've experienced that maybe other generations have it. Like we've really grown up in this stage of where technology and everything's constantly changing in the world around us. And I think that's something that really, I was looking at, I was like, Oh, these people have experienced the same things as I have, they've noticed this problem as well, in our generation and in our educational system, and they're trying to address this and this group and community of like minded high school students, well, something I found a lot of value in as well. And I was taking a look at this organization, because they are high scores, and they are experiencing the same things. And they're also trying to find a way to make a difference despite their age or other factors. So I really found that idea interesting. And I really wanted to work with them and try to promote this cause as well. So it's like high schoolers trying to inspire the next generation because I know that drawing from experiences in our lives, we can try to make a difference as an organization as a whole. Podcast Host: 33:57 What do you think is the best way for a student to outreach to other students because I know social media is useful, but a lot of accounts these days that sit on private and emails are can go amiss pretty quickly. But yeah, I'd love to hear from your experience. You know, when you say that you've been trying to outreach and and global director now. You've got all these people around the world, I'm sure who you liaise with regularly? What is the best way for students to outreach to other students in your experience? Ellen: 34:30 Yeah, I think two things come to mind when I think about reaching out to other students. The first one is just joining communities. I know communities can be hard to find sometimes, but personally, I'm part of a lot of international communities of high school students so on slack or on Discord. There are groups of high schoolers that you can find and who you can join. For example, I can think of one there's called girl genius and they're one of the communities that I'm in But overall, if you just, I think you can find these sorts of communities if you try to look online. And another thing that will be not as common to find other students, but I think more students are starting to get on this platform now is LinkedIn, you know, because yeah, LinkedIn is such a great way to reach out to people, and just find other people in your same field or other students as well. And I know that for Elevate the Future, the co founder actually reached out to me from LinkedIn. So that's something that I've had opportunities come to me from, and I've also spread opportunities to LinkedIn as well. And I know that LinkedIn is not usually a student platform, really, it's more for professional use. And usually people think of LinkedIn as more of like a business and business professional platform that's not really for students. But I think students can definitely go on LinkedIn. And there's increasingly more students have started to use LinkedIn. So I definitely think that's a good way to reach out to other high achieving students, or students who are interested in the same fields as you are Podcast Host: 35:59 One hundred percent. I'm personally a big fan of LinkedIn as we connected on LinkedIn. I think it used to be a business kind of our, you know, like, people go on there to promote their businesses and and to make network connections. But now I find it to be probably the the most supportive social media community and that everyone's like, yeah, like, I love your work, look at you go to everything, it's really supportive that way. And like, I've seen so many students that like 1516, and they've got like, 500 plus connections, and they're just smashing it, you know, like, out of their social media profiles, I'd probably say that their LinkedIn one is the one that they spend the most time on, because they know that that's where they're going to find like minded people, they're going to find mentors, they're going to find other students they own to find all these kinds of people who they really came to connect with. And it can be difficult to find people at that level when you're just in your school, right? Like, if you're looking for other people interested in machine learning will come socket disease research, etc. And you're looking around your class, you're like, Okay, out of the 30 people here who was interesting, you know, you can find heaps of people who share those ideas, is that something you've experienced? Ellen: 37:07 Yeah, I definitely have, I think a lot of people that I meet on LinkedIn, are just a different, I guess, group of students who are interested in going out of the way and actually going on LinkedIn, trying to connect with people who might be older, it's a little bit intimidating to because you have to take that jump in order to get into LinkedIn, and know that there's so many professionals on there that you can reach out to, but you're not afraid to, you know, just send a connection request or just reach out to more people. And I think that people that I've met on LinkedIn, some of them, I've worked on them for projects, or got them involved into elevated future. So there's definitely a lot of other people that you can meet on LinkedIn that many students might not realize. Podcast Host: 37:43 Yeah, no, I think it's a fantastic platform I myself have just been going through and because now I'm the host of this show, obviously. And and I've been looking to find high achieving students, and it's so great. I think it's fantastic. And they're like the most amazing, beautiful profiles, but you got to start somewhere, right? Like no one starts off with 500 connections in these beautiful profiles. It takes some time. But it really is the best chance to start, I think is when you're in high school. One other topic that we need to talk about, we can't go at a podcast show without talking about your competition, or your part in the isef. Talk us through that experience. Because for those of people who don't know, basically, the Intel science engineering failed now regeneron is like one of the most prestigious science and engineering fairs in the world for high school students. It's a huge or very, very high level of competition with some great prizes on offer. Talk to us about why you decided to enter that competition and what you ended up entering the competition with. Ellen: 38:41 Yeah, so I think when I first came across this competition, I was immediately, like, so excited and surprised that there is this way that high school students could go present what they have in their research and get feedback from professionals or those in the field who have a lot of experience and who are willing to lend their time to help and give back to by providing feedback or providing ways that they can help high schoolers. So that was the first thing that struck me as Wow, this is a thing like this is great. And I think my initial idea was because I already had my camera Socrates project I was working on and it was pretty research related. And I really wanted to get feedback on this. I really wanted to be able to improve it and grow it to maybe some thing that others could use and find helpful. So I my main reason that I decided to go for an attend my local science fair, the San Diego science fair, was because I wanted to get feedback from these machine learning engineers or computer science, computer scientists who work at major companies who have so much experience in this area, and just be able to present my project to them and get their feedback like their honest opinions on what some things I can improve on. Maybe some things that I missed out on my project or that many professionals might do when they're working on their own work that I can maybe implement within my project. So that was definitely something that I found super valuable. I definitely did receive that feedback that I was looking for. And I got a lot of different ideas about different directions I could go and after writing, that's the main reason why I decided to go for the science fair. And after presenting there, it's actually my first year and doing the San Diego science fair. So I didn't know too much about the process. Actually, I, I remember talking to some people that I knew there. And I got all the judging wrong. I didn't know what was happening. But I was just there presenting my project. And turns out, I qualified to the International Science and Engineering fair. And that was such a big thing for me, because I know that this is a really like you mentioned really prestigious competition. And the fair is a really major thing that so many, like there's Nobel Prize winners that go and speak at the Intel science fair and amazing. There's so many amazing scientists, I can meet there. Unfortunately, it was virtual. But it was still a good experience nonetheless. And I still am so honored. And I still can't believe it that my project ended up making it alongside all those other amazing student projects, I was just looking at all their products and thinking, wow, there's so many people who are have so much potential, and they're so good at their respective fields, and their projects are all going to make such a big difference later on. But I think just knowing that there are so many professionals who can give me feedback and being able to put my project out there, well, something that I really wanted to go for when I first just looking at these fairs and getting my first thought about them. Podcast Host: 41:44 So talk to me a little bit about how you ended up putting together your project to present in a, you know, in in that kind of format. But what did you need to do? And what did you need to learn about? I mean, you said you were pretty new to the whole thing at San Diego. But was there a bit of like a, like looking at the rubric with it, or what the judges be looking for where you were like, Okay, I've got my project in this format. And now I'm going to need to put it in this format. So it presents well, and can you talk about that process? And how long it took you to do that? Ellen: 42:17 Yeah, so I think that process is really important. Um, you might have a project and you know your code really well. But it's about how can you explain it to others so that they can understand and they can know the reproducibility of your project, they can know where you started from, and where you are now the different steps that it took to get there. And that way, they can help offer the feedback they can see. Okay, this is a clear path of what they did. And now that I know that, what are some things I can think of they can improve on so they don't really understand your project, then that's not something that's very good. I know, a lot of times, in general with like research or anything, a lot of people try to make their research sound really professional use a lot of big words. But I think that just presenting in a way that really intelligent person, but might not be in the respective field can understand is really important. So when I was going through this process, I had a bunch of code and did I had like a huge notebook, they had just like everyday, just write stuff in and just log everything down. But I know the only I can understand my messy handwriting and like all my separate notes and data that are just numbers all over the place. Yeah. Um, so the first step was just coming up with kind of a recipe, like a sequence of you know, I started off here that I did this, and then I did this, and this is what I ended up with. Hmm. And I first I was just sorting out my data finding specific like, ways I can organize by this, like in diagrams, tables, something that people can look at and just easily understand and comprehend. And also putting my work into explaining it in a way that I can explain to my sister, or like my mom, just ways that I could, first of all, make it really concise, but also really clear about what I did. And also like the different technical aspects that I can put into making analogies or referencing certain things that people who might not be in the same field, they might be in the medical fields, but also understand about the technical aspect as well. And it was really great. I think it kind of worked out because I had judges say like, oh, wow, I don't even know like AI, but I understood what your project does. And that was really great to hear. Because ultimately, I just wanted people to understand and be able to know what my project is about without making any confusing or anything like that, um, in terms of in terms of the overall final presentation that I gave it was on a poster, and so kind of like a three fold. I'm looking at it right now actually deployed there to the side. Really? Yeah. So it's really tall. And I'm like right here. So the bit taller than I am and it's like a really big trifold poster. Podcast Host: 44:52 Amazing. So for those of our podcast listeners, it's like over like a metre and a half tall or something like that, right? I don't know. About six foot tall. Ellen: 45:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm Podcast Host: 45:04 Ok, yeah, yeah, t e metrics and the imperial nits there. But yeah, it's like his, this big kind of poster roject, and you're taking eople through your process on hose posters. And you're kind o explaining, you know where y u were and where you are now. A d how long have you got up the e on stage? Ellen: 45:24 Yeah. So I've prepared multiple different timings of the length of my presentation, the judges have a lot of projects to look at. So honestly, I didn't want to take up too much of the time, because the time is so valuable. And I didn't want to just ramble on and on. So I had a one minute one, just a quick rundown of and quick, quick summary, like short, like, you can just look at the poster and I'll just ell you the main idea in one inute. So that was my, the irst one that I prepared, just ome quick facts that I can give hat summarize my overall roject, I also prepared a three inute walk. And so a little bit onger of a rundown, but still retty short. And that one went nto tiny bit more detail, but idn't really touch upon the ore technical aspect. And then 10 minute one, and that one as a more full out version. I idn't get to cover everything I id, obviously. But if they were urious about learning more, and anted to hear a bit, stay a bit onger on my project and learn a it more than I would give them he 10 minute version, where I'd un through everything on that ig post over there just yeah, hey'll took quite a lot of me kipping over some steps. ecause there, I put it in tiny ont. But there's so many things n that poster, but a 10 minute ne, that wasn't too long that I ould be taking up too much ime, but that I could also xplain some things in more etail. Podcast Host: 46:39 And what this whole experience do for you. I mean, like I know, students are probably out there thinking, this is very cool. I would love to and I know there's some Australian students who have actually won this competition before the Intel science engineering fair. Yeah. But I've also interviewed just a couple last week, I interviewed the 2019, winner of the Intel science and engineering critic, critic remeasure, you had a fantastic. Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, fantastic interview. But in terms of as like, what this whole experience did for you, and for your project, and for your school life, like, Did it feel as though you were more part of this research community? It kind of validated, I guess, a lot of your research and kind of showed you that you were on the right path Did you? Did you come back from the from the science fair, and be like, Oh, my God, I'm gonna do so much work on this now. What are your experiences? Ellen: 47:33 Definitely, it was such an amazing experience. And I think I'm just being able to hear all that feedback. Afterwards, I just Hi, I just sat down for maybe a solid 30 minutes of writing down every single thing that the judges are telling me and every single like, feedback that they gave. And I learned so much, just within that one science fair, like I lose, I got so much vegans a much better view of which directions I could be going in, and how to improve my project for maybe the next science fair, just in the next year. And I think I learned a lot on that aspect. But like you mentioned, I definitely felt more part of that research community, I met a lot of other students there as well, who had projects, not only within my category, but also I saw some other really cool projects and was able to talk to some of those students as well. And I think I didn't know that there is such a big High School research community, but it was so amazing to be able to see that because, wow, those high schools are doing such amazing things. And they are really thinking big too. So that's really awesome. And in terms of my research being validated, I definitely felt that maybe this is something that I can continue pursuing and keep on working on, I definitely felt a greater motivation that I'm I making a difference maybe and that someday, this project might become something that other people can use in their daily lives or find helpful. And I think that's something that really motivated me like having these machine learning engineers saying that this project is has potential and that was something just that was like really, really, really cool to hear. Podcast Host: 49:06 Oh, that's so cool. Let's talk about what's next for you. Because there's a lot of things going on. You're You're 15. Now, what is the next six months year long term vision of, you know, potentially where you want to go to university or what you want to study? Give us like the five year plan of Ellen Ellen: 49:25 Yeah. So I think in terms of college, I've definitely been taking this time of high school to kind of explore different fields, whether it's in business or computer science and trying to find out some areas which I enjoy. I think right now, I've been thinking about possibly taking a double major in business in computer science, because I want to continue exploring these two fields and I feel like I enjoy both of them. So I can imagine like, just choosing one or the other at this point. But in terms of university, I would like to stay on the west coast. I really love California. So I've been some colleges I have in mind are Berkeley, Stanford, Caltech, those are all in California. So those are some that I've been looking at. But honestly, I haven't talked too much about college yet. But those are just my overall ideas. And in terms of some other activities that I would like to continue within the next five years, I do want to continue this kind of Socrates project, also furthering Elevate the Future and being still involved in these things that I care a lot about, maybe even in college as well. Podcast Host: 50:36 You've had so many different experiences, you've got so many different areas that you have interest in, what would be based on your experiences, your main advice for you know, students come up to you that like a cane being 14 year old and 13 year old, never maybe could have made 16-17 year ol students who are older than tha you? And they say, Ellen, what' your one piece of advice for me I'm here in high school, I wan to make the most of it. Wha would be your your sage advic for students who are who ar looking for that golden nugge of advice based on you experiences Ellen: 51:09 Yeah, so students have probably heard this before. And it's probably something that their parents might tell them as well. But one thing that I really think is really true, and students should, I guess pay attention to more often is really to try to do what you like. Because I know a lot of students might feel pressured to try and go for different things that their other students might be doing. I'm trying to follow down, I guess similar paths as what they see other successful students doing by really think that whatever you're doing high school should be something that you want to do for the rest of your life. It's not really like a time to try and force yourself into this one field, or try and limit yourself in any way. Because you think that it might be better to see other students seeing the same thing. I think that if you really do enjoy something, you wouldn't mind putting in the effort to do it. And you wouldn't mind continuing the college. So you're really helping yourself in the long run by getting this Head Start into where you want to go in life and where you want to go into in the future. So I think just doing what you like, it's just really simple and really basic concept, but just finding activities that you genuinely enjoy, and that you you know, that you're really interested in and keeps you up a night. Podcast Host: 52:22 What happens if that activities like playing fortnight? Theoretically, I don't play fortnight, but I do know students who do play a lot, you know, and they're just kind of like, well, hang on that, you know, it keeps me up at night. Yeah, like, I love gaming, like, let's just do that, I know there's a lot of parents are like, no, don't, don't say do something that you enjoy, because my kid will just do gaming endlessly. And I think there's a certain degree of, of like, you've gone above and beyond school and you found you know, you got Elevate the Future that came into your life as a result of you know, someone reaching out to you. You've obviously had the experience with Kawasaki disease research, he chased that Intel science and engineering fair. Is there something to be said about really working on finding those things that you like, I think a lot of students are kind of sitting back waiting to come across the thing that they like, and it's just kind of like, they think it will come into their life, just by sitting there and waiting for it to happen. Whereas It sounds like you like the main things that kind of you identify with the things that you chased. And have you found. So what would you say in that regard to like, going above and beyond and actually seeking these opportunities? Ellen: 53:33 Yeah, I definitely think that something that many students probably benefit from, I think that China seek opportunities is something that's really great and just exploring a lot of different areas. I know for me personally, right now, I do this for fencing, but I played at least 10 Sports before that, and I'm honestly tried so many sports out there tried golf, swimming, ice skating, gymnastics, almost any sport. That's pretty common here in California, I've probably tried. And also within computer science, too. I've been in cybersecurity, I've done AI. I've explored a bunch of different areas. And also business to honestly some people are like, Why do try out so many things. But I think that in order to find out what you like, you probably want to know what you don't like to Yeah, and just being able to know, okay, I've tried this, I might not like it, that's okay, I can move on, I can try to find something else. And I think just being able to experiment with new things, since my students are young, like you're just in high school, right? You have time. And this is the time of your life to be able to try out new things and see what you like and you don't like and try to figure out your interest more. So I think that's definitely how I was able to come across these opportunities just by trying something new or just experimenting in a variety of different fields to see what I like and what I don't like. And that's something that helped lead me to, you know, doing what I like overall, because if I found an activity that I didn't like, I just dropped, it wasn't a big deal. I try to find a different area that I was enjoying it and not investing my time to something that I didn't actually care about. So I think that's what I'm trying to say before but not gaming, you know, like, you're probably you can probably like fortnight but this probably you probably wouldn't want to be playing fortnight your whole life. Podcast Host: 55:18 Well, I'm sure there might be a few students who will disagree with that statement, but we'll have to leave things there. Ellen, it's been fantastic having you on the show. And I'm sure that many of our students will be following your journey on LinkedIn.

Ep #1 How to Win a Global Case Comp

🗓 OCT 28, 2020

See transcript

Podcast Host 0:05 Hi, everyone. It's great to be here with the TGCC winning team, The Wolves of Wall St, congrats guys on an amazing win and for being part of the Tiger Global Case Competition. Would you care to introduce yourself? Obviously, each of you are an integral part of the team, see if we might start with you. So name, your age and the role that you had in the team. Sid 0:40 Right? Thank you, Alex. So my name is Sid. I am 16 years old just turned 16 about a month ago. And the role that I played in the team was of the research and our analysts. So I was kind of gathering all the data, identifying the problems and kind of pushing that forward. Podcast Host 0:55 Fantastic and Raghav. Raghav 0:58 Hi, so I'm Raghav, I just turned 17, and the role I had in the team was I was sort of the team leader. And the Slide Master, I would say. Podcast Host 1:14 The slides were very good. You know, I know that a lot of our listeners, and people watching at home, probably haven't seen the presentation. But the slides were on point. So well done on everyone's efforts. I'm sure it was. I know it's a democracy, right. And you got to make sure that everybody shares the glory. But the slides are very, very good. Harsha 1:33 Hi, I'm Harsha. I'm 16. I'm going to turn 16 in about two months. And I played the role of sort of the implementation of our solution. So the timeline, as well as our marketing strategy, and I was responsible for mainly the financials as well. So valuing the company and the numbers were handled by me. Podcast Host 1:52 Fantastic, awesome stuff. And last but not least, Ahad, tell us a bit about yourself. Ahad 1:56 Hi, so I'm Ahad. I'm 15. So a bit young compared to everyone else. And my role was the strategist. So I was working on some components of the strategy. And I was doing risk mitigation. Podcast Host 2:09 Amazing. Well, having seen the presentation, as I said, I'm sure not many people have yet seen the presentation. I can tell everybody right now that the ages that you all are, don't do justice to the presentations that you gave, because it looked like you guys were young professionals out there. And I think, you know, a lot of the feedback that judges gave was how well it was put together, how well you presented under significant stress, you know, you're in a team, you're in remote areas. So you're all basically on computers. So to set the scene, you're all on different computers, you're talking to judges who are all in different countries. You've got someone controlling the slides on one end, and you're all trying to put together your part of the presentation to make it a success. And you all did that brilliantly. But I want to try and kind of go back right to the very start. And Firstly, ask how did you come up with the name wolves of Wall Street? Obviously famous movie The Wolf of Wall Street, and Jordan Belfort there, but you guys must have, you know, taken some inspiration from Jordan, or had you approached the name of the logo side of things? Sid Um, it was a brainchild. I think all of us had a sort of equal contribution. I think Harsha had a lot in terms of contributing the name. So, you know, we kind of got together and we spent about a solid 30 minutes, just assignment and we said, okay, we have to make a name. It can be embarrassing, because you're gonna be, you know, pitching it with this. And we're gonna we're gonna just put Team Six right, because that's just not great. So then Harsha was like, Okay, how about the Wolves of Wall St? And we're like, okay, you know, that's the best you could come up with. So let's just go ahead with that. It was a brilliant name. But, you know, when he kind of pitched our first regional case to our supervisor, if you will, he said, Okay, so why do you call yourself The Wolf of Wall Street is associated with penny stocks and fraud, you shouldn't have done that. And they were like, it's a bit too late for that. I mean, we already, like submitted everything. Podcast Host But I mean, I think it's a great name, where you guys are improving on the name. So you're improving the reputation of what it means to be a Wolf of Wall Street. And you did that very, very well. We're going to be mainly focusing on the global case study. But I think for a lot of people who don't know what a case comp actually is, I think it's probably a good place to start. Now, I myself never competed in a case comp. And I've seen them going through my years in education, I've seen people compete in them and it looks really intense. It looks really involved. But can someone give us a brief description or summary of what the Tiger Global Case Comp actually was? Ahad 4:45 So what it is essentially is that they give us a business and the flaws of the business are hidden and you need to search for them and then you just need to solve it in a creative way. One thing that I find about case comps is that simplicity is key. So like keeping it really simple and like really straight to the point is how you win these types of case homes. And I feel that was the case with the TGCC. They obviously wanted high level financials. But the strategy needed to be simple, clean, like, and that's what we were trying to go for. I think that's the key strategy to win these types of competition. Podcast Host 5:22 That's an awesome insight. And we'll get more of those as we go. So how many of you just out of question had been involved in a case comp before, and it competed in one before? And another one, just one, just yourself? Harsha 5:36 I think it was more like we've really never competed in a case come at this level before steak. Podcast Host 5:42 Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay. So you've done some local ones. And you're all in Dubai. Is that correct? Harsha 5:49 Yes, but I think for me, personally, this was my, this is my first Case Competition. So I mean, I've done some I've done some minor ones. And I host a case study competition with Raghav here at a club in my school, because I haven't actually participated in a competition. So this is a first time experience. Podcast Host 5:59 Okay, so why did you decide to enter into the Tiger Global Case Comp? What about it kind of grabs you and you're like, ‘Hey, we're putting together a team, we're going to do this.’ Harsha 6:17 So I think this is actually a funny story, because it was to think of how to think of where it started. Sid actually followed Crimson on his Instagram. And then he found the competition, and he called me straightaway. And he was like, ‘Hey, do you want to do this?’ I'm like, ‘okay, it sounds really interesting.’ The prizes are up for grabs, so, and the prices look really good. And I thought it would be overall a really good experience. And then the first thing I thought of was to call Raghav. And then Raghav called Ahad. And that's how the whole team was put together. And then knowing this, this is probably the best team that we could put together. And we did, I would say we had a really well rounded team. And yeah, I mean, that sort of motivation, just pushed us into participating is just the experience in general. Podcast Host 7:04 Fantastic. And so what did you know about the competition going in? Because like saying the word case comp, you've got one person who's taken part in that before, like, you know, at a smaller level, you must have seen a bit of the flyers and information about it. But how much did you really know about going in? And I guess, to take it a little bit forward? Was it as you ended up expecting it to be? Who's going to answer that a little more? Sid 7:30 So yeah, I'll take that if there's not too much trouble. So what we did was, again, like, I think a core strategy to anything in life is to be as prepared as possible, right? Even like, if you're answering questions, in a case comp, or you're going for a university interview, you need to be prepared, you need to know what you're going to say. Right? Yes. So I think that's kind of the key to like, you know, what we sort of knew, so we said, okay, it was about two weeks before the local case release. And we said, let's look at Henry Xu. He was the runner up for last year. Let's look at his presentation. Let's take out the local brief, the regional brief, sorry, for last year, and let's try and sit through with the exact same time frame of seven days and work through it. Right. The actual presentation that we came up with in those seven days was absolutely terrible. But I think it just gave us you know, this starting point, and what we need to strive through. And I think that sort of initial start gave us a good foundation to what the TGCC is and what it expected. Podcast Host 8:31 So you guys kind of like gave yourself a run through, you know, so to speak or or rehearsal before the actual comp started by running through the priors competition and running through your priors case company, like comparing yourself to the winning one, right? Harsha 8:47 Yeah. So we had a couple of resources, we looked through those resources. And then we took the case study from around two years ago. That was the original, if that was a global case, or that was a regional case study for 2018, if I'm not mistaken, and then that case study we made a presentation on and then that's how we kind of said, ‘Okay, here's where we need to improve. Here's what we're doing well already. And here's how we can generally get better next time.’ So that gave us quite a good insight as to what was going on in the competition. Podcast Host 9:16 That's an awesome approach. And so for anybody listening, for the audience out there is keen on a case comp, I would definitely or would you recommend that that sounds like a pretty solid approach to kind of get yourself up to speed in a short amount of time when there is not a huge amount of case coffee experience within the team? Right? That sounds like a good tactic. Raghav We practiced our presentations as well as we could. We really put in a lot of time deliberately practicing these things. So we'd be prepared for the regional and global rounds. Podcast Host 9:44 Absolutely, and and even going in there with a little bit of a head start having done that rehearsal, I'm sure there were some surprises along the way. And possibly some people who grew into their role, people who ended up having a role more than they expected. And you're all learning in this case complex because the information that you guys presented in the actual presentation was pretty intense, right? Like, there's a lot of financials going on there. So for those students out there who are pretty like financially minded and interested in a consulting future, like, this wasn't messing around, there was some pretty heavy stuff going on in there. But what were some of the surprises I guess you had between signing up? And then finally presenting in the global round? Like, did you feel as though you know, the trajectory was all as you expected? Or did your roles evolve and change and the team dynamics change as well? Harsha 10:40 I think there were, there were a couple of things, we didn't have set roles. And it was quite vague, to be honest, our roles in the beginning, all we knew is we would make a great team. But we didn't have set roles. And as we got the case study, which was a week long, that was when we kind of found out where our strong points were, and where weak points were. And that's how we kind of made our roles. And second thing was we as a team, we tried to plan everything out to the tee. So we would plan how long it would take us to make a certain slide or how long it would take us to eat breakfast or lunch, and then come back and work on the case study. So we had a set schedule. It was that timetable was set for us so that we would have an idea of how to kind of segregate our time. And although we did kind of end up submitting on time, there were a lot of gaps. So I guess that kind of surprised us, it was just the pure amount of time that was needed to do certain things and how we kind of underestimated or overestimated the amount of time needed to do certain things. So it's the time management that really was a shock. In our case study, even in the regional case study, I would say so that's one thing for me, I have a huge learning curve, managing time managing a whole new case, like, it is not a I think, you know, looking at the TGCC it is not a student level, you know, usual competition, it's not part of every day, you know, school curriculum, this is a fairly big step up. And I think when you're when you're in the thick of it, that's when you're realizing it, you're like, Whoa, this is a lot of work to do. And things aren't going exactly as planned. So how did you go about like solving those challenges along the way, because I think at the end of the day, that's the difference between teams that win. And teams that don't, are people who can problem solve the challenges that occurred during the regional rounds and the global rounds. Ahad 12:50 So especially in the regional round, our key strategy was just to make everything look as amazing as possible, as visual as possible, because we knew that would make us stand out among the sea of like black and white presentations. So one challenge we faced was just how much has to go into that, like we had to make a mock up, Raghav had to make a mock up. And it took just so much time and we had to just cancel everything around our schedule, we told everyone, you need to be there. And everyone was so accommodating and canceled everything for the competition. I think that really set us apart because we just focused 100% we did all the late nights. We put all of our focus on the competition. And I think that's like what really helped us overcome the challenges because we were able to think on our feet and make time. Raghav 13:42 Another thing I would just add to that is that this is true like this is this was beyond a student level competition. And our main strategy after the regional round, what we did was, we approached one of our friends from our school, who has finished now and he's going to CBS right, Copenhagen Business School, and he does a lot of case studies. So he participated in the CBS Case Competition. And we asked him, “Can you look over our presentation? Can you tell us how we can make it better?” And he taught us so much. And he taught us so much. And we looked at other presentations that were submitted at university case competitions. So the key, like, what we were repeating to ourselves was that we're entering a high school level competition with a university level presentation. And that's what we tried to do. I think that's where it kind of set us apart. Podcast Host 14:41 Yeah, you guys presented with such confidence. Are all of you guys on a debate team or public speaking? Sid 14:50 I'll take that. Yeah. So I can speak for all of us when I say we're all brilliant speakers. Like I mean, in the scope of what we are trying to achieve. So I was exposed to debate only because I didn't want to do swing practice in my old school. And the only club that happened on that day was debate. So that's how I got introduced to it. And then I wanted to move on. And then I did the World Scholars’ Cup, I actually won first place in the debate round of that global round in Durban. And I think all of us here have those skills from those foundations, but at least that's how it started for me. Podcast Host 15:40 Looking back, what would you say is one of the main ingredients to having a successful team, whether that be working as a team, whether that be the slides and knowing that that's a priority, or actually just your time management? And making sure that you're putting in the effort? Or the public speaking side of things? Or is there any one thing that you would all agree on? Or perhaps you've all got an opinion as to what is the key ingredient for a successful case comp team? Harsha 16:13 In my opinion, I would say that it's to be well rounded, because I know that there were registrations that were open to TGCC with two people, and then they would be matched with two other people from around the globe. I think the advantage that we had was, we all knew our strengths. And we all knew that we were a well rounded team in terms of what was required for this case competition. And if, for example, if two people were good at research or if all of us were going to research and we were lacking in something else, then it wouldn't have been as good of a team. I would say that just our ability to trust each other and our talents and our ability to maintain synergies and all of the aspects of this presentation. Was I think the thing that sets us apart from the other teams, I would say, Podcast Host 16:59 Sid, do you want to give your opinion on that one as well? Sid 17:02 Yeah, so I think I agree with everything Harsha says. But if I had to say, from my point of view, the biggest thing I think is camaraderie and trust. Right. That's the biggest thing. It goes above everything else. Like Harsha, he's one of my best friends. Right? That's why I called him up the moment I said, ‘Look, this is something we can do together as friends not to get the prize, but more like, okay, let's work together. Let's have some fun.’ Right? And then we call Raghav. And you called Ahad; we all knew each other. We're like brothers now. Right? And I think that's, that's the core cornerstone. You know, what makes a good team. It's just your trust and your faith in one another. Podcast Host 17:42 Yeah, absolutely. That's what holds the team together. Raghav? What were your thoughts on what makes a successful team to go through TGCC? Or any case comp? Raghav 17:50 I think, yeah, definitely Sid and Harsha are right. And there's trust, there's the element of trust. Another thing that I absolutely loved about our team was that we're not afraid to call each other out if we're doing something wrong. So if we had a slide, and there was something wrong with the slide, we wouldn't say, they must know what they're doing. We're really, we were really willing to question each other and to fix any mistakes, because we thought like, we need to fix our own mistakes, we need to call out each other on our mistakes before the judges can. So we need to fix everything or every issue that might be there before anyone else can find it. Podcast Host 18:28 Yeah, that's huge. And I think that's particularly a lot easier when you are paired up with friends, when you know, it is a bit of a challenge. When you pair up with people you don't know and you're trying to be nice, and you're trying to get on with people. And you might not be overly critical of them when you kind of think you should be. But it’s great to be able to be honest with your feedback to each other. Because you're going to get called out by the judges. Ahad, what are your thoughts? You’re the youngest team member, what do you think makes a successful case comp team? Or made this case comp team successful? Ahad 18:59 I think everyone said everything that was all amazingly correct. I think one more thing in terms of the actual presentation is that, like, we knew what they were looking for in advance, like, we went through the rubric. And then we were like, ‘How do we maximize marks in every section?’ So we went to the issue diagnostics, so then we saw that they really care a lot about the issue diagnostic more so than the solution. So we put a really heavy focus on that, compared to the solutions we're also focused on. So I think that's what really set us apart. I think all teams should do that if they have the marking scheme, and it's something I do in every competition. If they give it to us, I go to the marking scheme. And I go to every point and we try to see how do you maximize the points in every single category? And once you visualize a storyboard or plan, then it's very easy to score points and like, get higher placement in these competitions. Podcast Host 19:54 That's amazing. And that actually is my next question. You've got through the regional rounds, you're in the global rounds, you guys are on a good trajectory to do really well in this competition, you get the case for the global round. What do you do? What's next? So you've all got the global round case sitting in front of you, talk us through what it looks like and tell the students who have never been on a case comp whenever competed in a case calm what that's like and what do you do next? Sid 20:26 I'll take that actually. So it's a bit of mixed feelings because you’ve got adrenaline pumping through your veins, you're like, ‘Okay, I've got 48 hours, I got to nail it the first time, there's no room for mistakes, you can’t make a big mistake, and then go back and fix it.’ Right? So there's a lot of that energy around everyone on the team to get down and start putting pen to paper. But I think the thing with the global case, right, more so than a regional case, is that the problems are very, very implicit. In the regional case, they pretty much belatedly said here, we want international expansion, this is your task, go for it. For Sony, they didn't say that. They just said, these are the different sectors. This is the competition of Sony. This is the current situation. Now give us a pitch. Now with that you have to kind of figure out what exactly the issue is. And that took us a lot of time. First we ended up figuring out what the solutions are, then you went back to the issues, the issues didn't really make sense. And you had to go back and fix the issues again. And then we realized that those issues were really issues. So we had to go back and do all of that. And like Ahad said that's a key, or was it Raghav as a key kind of cornerstone is like looking at the issues. And I think that was kind of a point of struggle for us. Podcast Host 21:32 Right, so kind of distilling what actually are we trying to solve here? What is the actual case that's in front of us? Yeah, that's super interesting. So, Ahad, you were doing the strategy side of things, right? Were you like, you know, what, what was your first thing you like, Hey, guys, this is what needs to stay on track. So we can hit the marks in the rubric, because as you say, like, knowing what you're actually going to get scored on, is such a big part of how to win competitions is knowing how you're going to get judged. So what was your role is like their strategy guide to try and make sure the team was staying on track. Ahad 22:04 I think it was a full team effort. Like these guys, were keeping me in check as well. And Sid was also working on the strategy with me, he did the first one, which was also like, it was really also amazing. And I think we had that synergy going. So like, what we were trying to do was we were trying to nail the issues. So the strategy was we kept rereading the report together and just underlining key points. Because there were a lot of hidden things like there was just one line about one of the issues. And like, we found that line, and then we were like, down, this is the hidden issue. And then that's how I think we were able to stay on track with solutions because we nail the issues the first time. In the regional case, we actually did miss one issue, like are issues off the mark. So we had to go back and we had to go find the issue again. And then that wasted like two days, and we knew there was no room for error. So I think like as a team effort, like we really nailed the first like analysis of issues. And I think that's like what kept us on track to the strategy. Because once you nail the issues, strategy is really easy. Podcast Host 23:02 I think it's clarifying, as you say, what actually the task at hand is. One thing I want to go through, you know, for students who are considering being a part of a case comp, or the tiger global case comp, or whatever it might be, is how much is like a school economics class or business management class, whatever it's going to be, you know, would help you in something like this, like, how much existing knowledge did you have? And how much new knowledge did you have to acquire? And if you did have to acquire new knowledge, what was it like? Was it a particular financial analysis skill or something that you learned from that mentor that you mentioned? So yeah, take us through, I guess what you knew coming in, and what you had to learn as a result of being a part of the case comp? Harsha 23:45 Well, for me, I would say in terms of the first part of your question, the economics and business class, so I take only economics in my school, I do not take business. And right now, I've been taking the subject for around one year and two months. And we've sort of just finished the foundation of economics. So for me, especially it was I had to go and do my own research. So I've had a lot like it wouldn't have been possible if all of us didn't have that striving passion for the subject in the first place. So I've had a passion for myself for economics, finance, in business and your mind since the start of my high school. So I've been doing a variety of financial courses online and stuff like that. So that was where I accumulated most of my financial knowledge and my financial jargon, if you will, but yeah, I wouldn't say that I would definitely recommend for the people that want to participate in case comms that to do your own prior research depending on your role prior to the competition. So to be very honest, my economics syllabus didn't help us that much, but it definitely gave us the groundwork, the footwork, and the foundation to sort of build up from there in terms of where you want to in terms of your role throughout the entire case competition. So yeah, in layman's terms, it doesn't help that much. It gives you a foundation but ultimately Can you recommend going and doing more research? I think that applies to all of us. Podcast Host 25:03 Yeah, absolutely. Does anyone else want to chime in on that one? Because I know everyone's going to have different experiences based on different subjects that you do. Because that's an interesting one that I'm sure students are like, ‘Do I need to do heaps of extra research for this?’ Sid? Sid 25:17 Yes. So I'm in Harsha's economics class, right. And, you know, I think, taking assessment of the rest of the class, I think we are near the top, that we're at the top kind of sector of people who study economics. And, like Harsha said, that didn't help at all right, very little. It just basically gave us you know, the idea of, Okay, how can we assess an overall economic situation? Right. And, you know, I think coming in here, I was one of the least experienced people in the entire group. You know, I kind of felt that I didn't know as much as Ahad or Raghav or Harsha did. Raghav and Harsha, they're in a business club together. Ahad is doing several financial programs of his own that he started. And I think the key really is for, you know, students who kind of don't have the same experience or kind of started with it is learning from the people around you. You know, we talk a lot about this growth mindset, fixed mindset, I think the key thing to take away from that is that you shouldn't be afraid of people who are better than you. Because there's so much you can learn from them. You know, Raghav, Harsha, all of them gave me these, like, really amazing skills that I can use now in the future, right, you know, making better slides, looking at risk mitigation, looking at finances. And I think, you know, this, all this, us helping each other brought us to, you know, the Global's where, despite the fact we had our roles, everyone had a contribution to each slide to an equal degree. Right? If I was the research person, and I was doing a research slide, everyone had equal contribution to that to make sure it's the best that it could possibly be. Because every slight encounter is a bit of everything. Podcast Host 26:51 Yeah, absolutely. No, I think it's so key to be around people who know what they're talking about. And when you mentioned Harsha, the financial lingo or like the, you know, your financial dialect, I think it's such an important part of it. And, you know, for me, I still don't know my financial lingo. I'm still trying to catch up. My brother works in banking and finance in New York. He knows all that stuff. I don't, I'm not him. That's for sure. You know, that it must be a massive learning curve, see it cetera, you know, but for someone who hasn't been exposed to it as much, how did you feel like you're in your element with this kind of stuff? When you're looking at this case, company? you've you've done a lot of this prayer, you know, you just got called out for doing some business management courses and that kind of stuff. You do a bit of your own learning on the side? Ahad 27:38 Yeah, definitely. I am very involved in things like investing in stocks with real money. And I have programs that I run, but I feel that honestly, I don't think that you need to be super deep into like learning new things to get into it. Like, actually, you don't have to do so much research. Because the main hard thing inside the presentation is the financials. So just get yourself a really good financial guy like Harsha and then you're set because everything else is just really simple. Because what I've seen is that the teams that win these case comps are the ones that can explain the complex strategy in a really simple way. While the teams who are really experienced tend to overcomplicate things, that’s not the way to go. I think that you just know your basics like your SWOT analysis, your three parts of your strategy, how to do your executive summary, that's just very basic stuff. And obviously you're amazing financial analysis analysts like we got. Podcast Host 28:37 Okay, yeah, that's really important. And I think that's a good way of summing it up that hopefully students aren't intimidated by the level of knowledge that you guys have. I'm sure students out there do have this kind of knowledge, but they might be kind of thinking, ‘Oh, this feels like something that when you hear ‘case comp’, you usually think of university or sometimes, you know, big employers run them as well. So it’s not typically associated with a high school level, particularly when you've got people like Jamie Beaton, and those kind of guys judging you. And Jamie, I know is like a financial guru, pretty much. So it must have been a little bit intimidating knowing though that like, you're going to be presenting to these people who, like know, their finances and know their stuff inside and out, because it was a pretty impressive judging panel. Does anyone want to speak to that experience? Raghav, do you want to talk us through what it was like to be presenting to a really impressive judging panel? Raghav 29:32 I think it was somewhat intimidating. But what we did was be really sure of our financials. One thing that our mentor told us was that our financials wouldn't really be questioned as long as they're realistic. If we do something, if we say this service should be priced at $100, we should have some sort of justification for it, but they One question asked if we provide a justification. And another thing we did was ourselves like it goes back to questioning ourselves, we really questioned each other on like, why did you set this number at $100? Or why does this service cost $15 per year? And really stress those questions. And that's, I think that I think visually, that helped us that we would be comfortable offering those numbers to judges as well afterwards. Podcast Host 30:30 Yeah. And that's actually that's something that did happen in the questions because Janine asked the question, she said, Oh, you're not making much gross profit there. And you're like, ‘Well, you know, Sony makes the PlayStation for X amount and sells it for this amount. So we're trying to justify the gross profit will be this amount.’ So you weren't trying to over inflate your ideas to make yourself look like heroes, you were realistic with what the price of the product would be and the price that you'll be selling it at. So you end up with the gross profit that, you know, actually is big. And the justification I think was really solid. In the presentation, which the judges I think, understood that these guys know what they're talking about. They're not just putting numbers in here, willy nilly, they've actually gone and thought about this. Is that a fair point? And I'll throw this to Harsha, it sounds like you're the financials guy. Harsha 31:22 Yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, for the numbers itself. I think we all even though I was wanting to put it together, I think for the numbers, we all played a key role in finding justifications, finding these explanations. I think one of the main things that differentiated us from other groups was that Raghav found a flashcard application. And we put the possible questions that the judges could ask us on that flashcard application. And we prepared two or three bullet points, based on those questions. And who that would go to. And that's how we knew, like you said before, who answered the question, it was one of the most satisfying things ever, because in the regional rounds, especially the two questions that they asked us, they were the exact questions that we put on our flashcard. And I remember, all of us in our minds must have been like, yes, they asked us those questions that we prepared. So it was very, very satisfying. And even the Global's we were quite prepared for the questions. And at the end of the day, these judges, they're not there to intimidate you or bite you. They're there just to guide your presentation and ask you questions on what you already know. And I think that was something that we had in the bag. So it was quite a good experience. Podcast Host 32:33 Yeah, no, absolutely. And hats off to you guys for answering your questions. Because what I think you guys did really, really well in answering the questions. And this is something that I would give as advice to all listeners, as someone who is watching your presentation, is that you knew when to do sorry to kind of put this bluntly, but you knew when to shut up. Right? You answer the question. Thank you very much. Right? And that's it. Like, the more you talk, the more you can get yourself in trouble and the more you can kind of overcomplicate it, as Ahad keep saying keeping it simple is no sometimes the hardest thing to do, right is to sum up a complex question in a couple of sentences when you're thinking on the spot. So I really credit you guys for practicing your questions. I think that's a really key tip that some students might not be doing but definitely should do. I think that was really, really key. Let's go fast forward a little bit to the awards day or the day that the announcement was made that you guys had one and take us through that. You know, I think we had at least one of you guys on the call who was on the call that day to accept Raghav That was me. I came on but I think an audience was watching. Right? Podcast Host 33:44 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you're watching, you come on and you're a bit speechless at the time but you also won the best speaking award! And you're like, oh, man, I'm speechless! This is all happening so fast. You did well, there. I must admit you did really well. What was it like in the five or so minutes after the call? When you guys were chatting for the first time after you after you knew that you'd won. Harsha 34:07 It was a hurricane! Sid and I were skipping the class that we had that day to watch this award ceremony. I had permission. So we were sitting in a physics room right, right opposite the Administrative Office of our school and when our names came at first place, we started screaming and the teachers came in and they thought that somebody was on fire, it was insane! So we were kind of getting in trouble and celebrating at the same time. So yeah, and then Raghav came on as speaker and yeah, it was great. I mean my reaction, especially me and Sid personally, we were really really excited. I'm sure Raghav and Ahad as well. Ahad 35:12 I think the three of us like me, Harsha and Sid were screaming so much like, I think the people below my house, they were hearing and I think they might have come up. But Raghav was in shock. Like, he wasn't making any noise. Like he was just still, he was in shock. And he was like, I couldn't like I was looking at him. And it was just so funny! Podcast Host 35:33 What were you in shock about? Raghav 35:35 I think one of the things was that I always tried to be the pessimistic one in the group. I was predicting, okay, let's look at who all are. In the competition. I was saying worst case scenario, or like, or like we'd like probably case, base case, as we say, in the case. The base case was we'd come third. And they were saying "Don't be pessimistic. Like, you shouldn't be talking like this. And let's wish for the best", and the shock of expecting to, but then coming first, I was just like, speechless. And then I had to come on as well. So I came on, and I just couldn't get out any words. Now saying that's kind of ironic, like, I get a speaker award, and then I can't speak Yes. But all of us were really excited. And like, yeah. Ahad 36:26 Honestly, like the day of the awards, like me and Raghav, we got up at 6am. We were live streaming all the presentations. So I saw like, every single one, I made it. I did like risk analysis for every single one. And then I told everyone, we've won this, but then they're all like, no, let's not be optimal log of especially then like, he's like, no, let's just talk three, it's fine. Let's be pessimistic. And then when the actual award was about to be announced in like, the first place award, and then we were like, we had a panic attack. We're like, Oh, no, we're not gonna win this, the Australian team, there's so much better than us. And then when we wanted, like, we were all so happy. And I think that was like, really amazing Podcast Host 37:03 So you were doing risk analysis of everybody's team. He was saying, like, yeah, this tastes pretty solid, they're gonna be tough to beat that type of thing, right? And then you thought, well, like, I've seen everybody else's, I know, we're pretty close to the top. And if we've won, let's, you know, my risk analysis is solid as a rock. And if we've come third, then I guess his pessimism brought the team down and made them ready for that. But you guys came out with a win. And it was fantastic. So what's next for you guys? Like, has this experience, I guess changed or made perhaps a little bit more, or giving you more clarity about what it is you want to do in the future? You know, maybe you were on the path or thought you might want to go into kind of economics, business consulting. And now you're like, yeah, this is definitely for me. Or maybe you've changed your path slightly, maybe you don't know yet. But it has is this kind of experience life altering in that kind of space, or not really, at this stage, Harsha 38:00 Personally, as a career path for me, I was introduced to investment banking, when I was in your year three. And don't get me wrong. I'm not a nerd, I had absolutely no idea what investment banking was, when I was in that when I was in that year group, I had absolutely no idea what it was till I was in your eight. And that was when I started doing some more research. And then I found out the different types of investment banking. And then your nine was the time where I decided because I had done an online course on investment banking up till then. And then I found out that I was I had a knack for mergers and acquisitions, and how that I had a lot of interest in that that was where I started, you know, kind of paving my CV to, and it just, it just gave me the assurance that okay, this is really where I'm meant to go. Because these are the types of problems that I'll be solving in the corporate area in the corporate world and I think it just kind of gave me that positive go ahead, that yes, you can, you can go into that particular career path. So that was where I was looking, and I was looking to get an economics degree in the UK, possibly, and things like that. So definitely tightened the noose for me around that. So I think, kind of just a showcase of what I can do in that field. And I felt really good. Absolutely. I think that's such a good way of putting it that it showcases your talents in a way that, you know, normal school probably wouldn't give you that opportunity. So it's sometimes a competition like this, where you're like really able to hit the accelerator and be like, hey, I've been doing some investment banking stuff for a while now. And he's the result in the competition since you came into the competition, probably by the sounds of it, you know, a diverse range of interests, obviously strong in the business and economic side of things. But how is this experience, you know, perhaps changed or helped you decide your path? Sid 39:19 So, um, I've always, like, kind of thought that I wanted to do something that involves speaking and convincing people of things, right. Yep. So yeah, so like, I remember, like, I was talking to my college counselor, and she says, you know, that I can go to any I can take any course I want. It could be physics, it could be you know, gardening, it could be anything. But she says that, because I have, you know, the ability to convince people to buy what I'm selling or whatever. That you know, it kind of opens that door for me, but like, you know, cuz I was in business, like in economics, and I like that side of things. My dad, he runs, you know, a multi family office. My mom teaches business and economics. So I've grown up around that kind of household of, you know, finance side of things. But I never was actually sure that like, you know, I wanted to go into investment banking, I wanted to do this, I just knew I wanted to do something that was fast paced. And that kind of, like, kind of brings back to my initial inspiration of watching, you know, Harvey specter on suits, you know, you know, in exactly like you say, the most ridiculous things like, you know, some things I can't see because of the profanity, but like, you know, just things that shows, you know, it's always fast paced, there's no resting moment. And for someone like me, who gets, you know, kind of bored taking notes in class every day, I want something that's always, you know, keeping me on my toes, and I think this is one of those professions. So dgc really helped me realize that, you know, I thought I was just gonna go and get an economics degree and just do something with that. But, you know, I think it's so much more than that. Right now, I'm looking for something like a combined course of Economics and Management. And, you know, because I just feel that you can't have business without economics. And you can have economics and business, right. And, you know, this translates into so many different aspects of life. Like right now, I started an international startup called khanbridge, it's in five different countries right now. And we're growing and it's just, you know, the adrenaline of starting something that uses all that knowledge. And I think that's this really helped me kind of focus in on what I wanted to do. Podcast Host 41:12 Amazing. That's fantastic. Well, I'm glad you had that experience with it. And that it helped you to kind of realize where you wanted to go in the future. And if it's combining Economics and Management, or business management, that would be fantastic for you, and a good outcome, Raghav, talk us through your experience and how it affected you. Raghav 41:31 It's been a little bit of a different journey for me. For most of my life, I was brought up in India, and then I've only recently shifted to Dubai, about two or three years ago. And if I think back to my life, around five years ago, I had some kind of idea that I wanted to do something with business or finance. But I didn't know for sure. And at that point, I would have never imagined that I would ever have the hopes of winning global, like a case competition. And over time, it's been just getting closer to what I want to do. I'm not sure what I want to do yet. But I know I'm getting closer. I'm getting there. So I've gotten from coming to Dubai and picking myself successes, business and economics. And then during this competition, it's been helping me realize what I want to do. I'm still not sure as I say, but I know I'm getting close to it now. Podcast Host 42:28 That's fine, you know, like you, you've got plenty of time still. And I can tell you right now that, when you're in your 30s as I am, you might still not know exactly what you want to be doing. But it's all a journey to get closer to the end destination. And there might not ever be an end destination. It's always an evolution. And I think the future of work is changing so fast, that it's probably good to stay nimble and good to keep your options open. Ahad, I saw you nodding along there. Obviously, like you've got a strong background in the business and finance side of things. It seems to be like you're the analytical guy, in many ways, and as well as Harsha as well. Talk us through I guess, you know how you see this competition solidifying perhaps your pathway. Ahad 43:13 I think this competition is definitely life altering for me. Because like one or two years ago, I was choosing my subjects. And I chose three sciences. Because I was thinking about doing medicine, or law or business and I wasn't sure about any of these. And then like, I went into this competition called business mines, and Harsha and Raghav ran that competition. And I did well and then like, I won it and then I'm like, yeah, this seems like this is something I want to do. And then after that, I was just not sure at all. And this actually really helped me solidify because, up until very recently, I was thinking about medicine, but now that's like completely out. I think this is like really, really life changing for me because it's like really told me that I need to do business and like, unlike suitable for that, because, you know, my parents, they wanted me to do medicine because they're like, it's a safe profession. You know, bankers are togs, yes, and all that stuff. So that's what I think this unlike the competition's on this journey with my friends has been really amazing and like, really life changing for me and are really able to be part of my life. And I think I'll look back at it like years from now and smile fondly. Podcast Host 44:24 Absolutely. I'm sure you will. So just let me get that straight though. You competed in a competition, and you won it that Harsha and Raghav ran? Raghav 44:36 It's a competition that's been running in our school for the past five years. This is actually the fifth year. And Harsha and I are leading it this year along with another person. And we participated in it that time as well, like two years ago, and we actually lost you to Ahad. So that was, yeah, that was kind of what happened. Podcast Host 44:56 Well, so you knew you had good people on your team. You know, when you're talking about training You know, you want to be on a team with people who have beaten you in the past? Right? I think that's a good thing. That's a good thing. My last question for you guys is as part of being winners, and you do have the opportunity to spend a bit of time with Julian Robertson. Now, for those people who don't know who Julian Robertson is, he's pretty much like one of the most respected hedge fund managers in the world. And is, you know, obviously a huge part of Tiger Global Management as well. What are you going to try and get out of that time with him? You know, he is like, for those people who don't know how old is Julian Robertson? I think he's like late 80s, or there abouts? Right. So he's obviously got a lot of experience. Yeah, I just want to know, how are you looking to take advantage of that time? What are you looking to get out of that experience of being able to chat with Julian? Sid 45:52 Um, I mean, it's kind of a funny story, because I have like, never met someone famous in my entire life, you know, and I've like, all these people, like on Instagram, you know, taking selfies of them with like, these actors, and you know, these amazing, super famous tennis players, football players. And, you know, I can't remember like, like, even the last thing, gosh, you know, how cool would it be to sit down? And you know, even take a photo with someone who has made it big in life, right? Yeah. And I didn't care who it was, it could be a football player, it could be an actor, it could be a cricketer, it could be anyone. But now I have the opportunity to not only take a photo, but to discuss and talk to and learn from someone who's in exactly, you know, what I want to do. I think I speak for all of us, you want to say I'm really, really excited, just to sit down and you know, hear what he has to say. Because, you know, like you said, Alex, he has so much experience. He has so many success stories. And you know, if we could just learn and you know, humbly be a part of what he has to say. I think that can open up so many doors for us. Absolutely. Podcast Host 46:56 Yeah. No, he's a wealth of experience. Has anyone else got any other thoughts or ideas of what they want to get from that chat with Julian? One of the things I find most interesting about people is that is the way they kind of is the way they think. So I have two examples for this one is Ray Dalio, who is the founder of Bridgewater. And the way he thinks is he's written in his book principles is that he for everything he's done, he does. If he makes mistakes, he goes back and then reflects on them and uses those principles to not make that mistake again. Yes. Or if you think about Charlie Munger, who is the partner of Warren Buffett, yep, he uses mental models in his life. So for every investment decision, he has mentioned once, yes, a variety or plethora of mental models that he uses to analyze a situation. And I think that's going to be the question I want to ask him is, what is the way that he thinks about life and approaches to life? Yeah, because it feels like a lot of these financial gurus, they do have these sets of rules or principles that they live by that it allows them to, or enables them to take advantage of market fluctuations and situations because otherwise, investing is such an emotional game, right, you know, the ups and downs of the markets. It's being able to stick to a set of rules and a set of principles, no matter what situation is key to being able to invest successfully, no matter what's going on around you. So that's an awesome question. I look forward to hearing what that answer is, when you do actually ask that question. And Harsha, what would you like to ask Julian? Harsha 48:40 I mean, it's just the amount of experience he brings to the table. Because even though we're quite inexperienced ourselves, in terms of the amount of case competitions that we've been in, this was my first big Case Competition and it was my first big exposure to the big bad world, if you will. But our skills right now are quite raw. And in a sense, he's very, very seasoned in what he's been doing is very experienced. And so just to learn from that is an immensely amazing opportunity for us. And like Raghav said, Those, that's a really good way to put it, how he thinks in terms of his day to day business decisions every entrepreneur has, has their own USP. Just as an example, I read, I read a biography on Ilan musk. And when he was building SpaceX as a company, there was an employee who asked him to fund 104 funding of $125,000 for a part of a rocket that was that operated that had an operation of a door hinge equal to a door hinge, right. And then he didn't say anything he just said, you have $5,000 make it work. So every entrepreneur has this kind of like their USP and I'd love to get to know him as well so Raghav hit the nail on the head so something definitely I'm looking forward to. Podcast Host 50:02 Well, it's been fantastic chatting with you guys. I think the last thing that I'd like you to all leave us with is a piece of advice for future case comm competitors. So obviously we've covered quite a bit to recap what it is, you know, practice questions it is look at past cases that you guys you know, if people watch this, everyone's going to check out your presentation from playing 20 when they're doing the 2021 case comp so you know that right so you're going to be a popular video to watch for people in future case comps. Ahad, I think you're one it was pretty good in the rubric, have you got anything else? Ahad 50:38 I think one more thing that I didn't mention, I obviously mentioned keeping it simple as obviously, like the most important thing but another thing is just deliver it confidently. Like even if you don't know what you're talking about, just act like it's unquestionable. And then the judges won't ask you a question about like, that's exactly what we did in financials Harsha delivered it confidently in the judges had basically no questions for it. Just just fake it till you make it essentially in like, just be as confident as you can. And I think you'll be solid, keeping it simple and keeping it confident. Podcast Host 51:10 I love and I love it. And I saw Sid had a wry smile there. Because I think that that's what he feels like he's, you know, like that that's his thing is selling things confidently. Sid what would be your advice if it's not selling these confidently? Obviously, it's the you know, the presentation side of things is very strong for you. Is there anything else you'd like to share? Sid 51:29 I mean, apart from what Ahad said, he hit the nail on the head. Like when I first went into debate, my coordinator told me she said, the only person that knows that knows you're wrong is you and make sure that stays that way. Right. And I think if I have to give any sort of advice for Case Competition or other competitions, at least from where I stand is just take that leap. Right? Just take that leap. I mean, I quote Stanley here, you know, the creator of the MCU. He said, if you have an idea, that's genuinely good, don't let some idiot Have you out of it. Because I think this stands by for anything, whatever you're doing, because like I said, You know, I came here, one of the least experienced people in this group. And now I think, you know, I'm at par with everyone here. In terms of what I can do. I've like I've learned financials, I've learned, you know, kind of what Harsha does. I've learned what Raghav does. I've learned what a heart does. And I think if you do any student who's listening, just stick to that step, the worst will happen is that you come out with something new. Right? The worst will happen is that you'll realize that I can do better than this, or this is not for me. And I think it's very underrated in the aspect of just trying and seeing what happens, because that's I think that's a core aspect of everything you're doing, just try and see what happens. Podcast Host 52:43 Absolutely, thank you so much. And Harsha, what will be your tip for students? Obviously, like one thing that I really liked about yourself Harsha, is that you've gone above and beyond the school curriculum, it sounds like for quite a while. And I think quite a few of you have done that actually, like you've all kind of had your interests in different areas and all explored those areas significantly. But are there any particular pieces of advice that you would like to give to students? Harsha 53:08 Yeah, I mean, apart from just going beyond the school curriculum, I think that one of the main barriers that people have is that they don't actually think about going into these case competitions, because they don't think that they have it in them, so to speak, I think the main thing is like Sid said, just take the leap, and go for it. Because there's nothing bad that can come out of it, like you have nothing to lose when you enter these competitions, apart from some of your time that you dedicate to gaining this experience. So I think that's one thing. And the second thing I would say is when you've taken that leap for the duration of the case comp, I would say just be as prepared as possible. In our instance, for example, we had prepared our list of Q and A's we had done a mock presentation we have before the I would say I would quoted as in quotes, dead time making use of so much dead time that we had. So you know, for the case came in, we knew exactly what financials to incorporate. So I had built Excel models based on that before. So just generally being as prepared as possible really helps, I would say for the duration of the competition. Podcast Host 54:12 The preparedness that you guys had, obviously, like when you got those questions in the regional round, and you got those questions and global round, like it showed, watching your presentation, it really showed how prepared you were. Alright, close us out Raghav, tell us a little bit about what advice you would give to students. Raghav 54:28 I think one of the main things that people should try to do is work extremely hard. Like, I know, this is cliche, and everyone says work hard. But I do think we really put in the hard work and we put in the hard work, even when we didn't want to. Like there were times when we stayed up until around three and we woke up at seven or eight for the global presentations. And even after we submitted the presentation. The next day we were up again and we weren't Throughout the day, and even if we think about it we got the case on the third on a Thursday, in the evening, and we were working pretty consistently from about 12pm that Thursday. So I think that's one of the main things that everyone should try to do is work extremely hard, even when it's not fun. Podcast Host 55:20 Yeah, I mean, like, there's not much that replaces hard work, right. Like you guys can have good financials like people who have done it before a mentor, all this kind of stuff, like a guy who can sell ice to Eskimos, you can have all those different things. But at the end of the day, nothing replaces hard work, and the time that you put in and committed to it, and I think a lot of students are like, okay, I'll do this as a fun side project. But you know, for you guys, it sounded like you went all in, you said, we're doing the TGCC say, it's just a couple of days of super hard work. Let's win this thing. guys. Thank you so much for being on the show today. We hope that you enjoyed the episode and we hope that everybody who is out there listening subscribes for more fantastic episodes from the Top of the Class podcast.